Unique outlook on the Halo maps. I liked when things didn't make sense. Made things wacky and fun, like Sandbox. You are in a sand bowl surrounded by Forerunner Guardians and their lasers. Do we know why we are there? Nope! Is it fun? Yes it is.
That's what I've noticed most of the new Halo is lacking. Fun. I don't even care if I win a match as long as I had fun in it. Now it's all so dang competitive all the time and it's exhausting. I'm not gonna keep playing a game if I keep getting stomped on by some sweaty try hards over and over again. That's not fun and I don't have the time or want to also become a sweaty try hard just so I can brag about "muh K/D."
@@Khronik_ That was honestly one of the worst decisions they made. Halo wasn't built on competitive play. It was built on the thought process of "Is this fun? No? Thow it out. Yes? Keep it in." Now it's all "muh K/D!" Honestly feels like I'm playing CoD sometimes and that is one of the worst things to say about Halo.
That’s very true. 3 steps forward with the cool mil sim idea with your Spartan being a background character with 6 steps backward with the heavy MLG human themed maps.
@@spectralassassin6030 Even worse is when they ruined Community breakout in Guardians because it wasn't fair or something, so they added shields and gave everyone shotguns basically killing the flow of the game. Like, bro, community breakout was by far the most fun game mode in possibly the entire series and you ruined it because some sweaty competitive were whining, how asinine can you be?
@@Khronik_ Ehh I mean I don't think that's the reason why they are so un-creative with maps and tie them down to "lore accurate" battlegrounds. I mean the proof is in the pudding. Go back and look at what were the top Halo maps that were played in competitive tournaments like MLG, etc. For example in Halo3 there was The pit, Heretic, Guardian, Narrows that were played a ton in competitive and those maps all have different styles and layouts. So I don't think it's an issue of listening to the pros. I think it's that 343 has no creativity themselves to design maps so they think the "safest" bet is to listen to pro players (who also have no creativity for map design or aesthetics).
"Over-Engineered" - This one term sums up my entire vibe from modern gaming. I seem like I'm constantly saying this, but it feels like this is happening EVERYWHERE. In a way, it kind of is? Like, you're right about a number of things 343 did as part of the Halo space, but I'm of the opinion that the wider gaming industry standards hold a lot of blame that, when talking about Halo and only Halo, end up lost. Every other game franchise-centric creator also seems to fall into this, too, for the record. Rarely do I hear CoD creators or whoever mention "Halo has the same issue" and such. My hope is that one day, player fun and creativity become grander pillars of game design, because as it stands right now, there's way too much emphasis on how to science players into routines or playstyles and it really stinks. Halo Infinite is basically what I point to when someone asks me what went wrong with gaming. Trend following, microtransactions, competitive focused are just a few of the problems you could bring up. Tack on being riddled with bugs and having lackluster amounts of content to that, too. I'm not holding my breath, though. Modern big-name gaming is in a vice grip by companies with way too many schemers trying nickel and dime us for our money as well as our fun.
Western gaming needs its own madman. Western gaming needs someone like its own Yoko Taro or Hidetaka Miyazaki. Someone who is just going to decide to make their game the way they want the best they can and damn the industry. I can’t think of a single western auteur dev; The closest we get is Hideo Kojima because he just has does much stuff in the western style for a western audience. We essentially need a 2020s equivalent to what John Romero was in the 1990s. Think someone like Michal Kickinski or Andrew Prohorov, but turbocharged. It’s quite unfortunate western games continue to be built essentially to specifications by committee, checking all the boxes to have the right number for wide appeal. Gotta have the open world gotta have the customizable skins gotta have the random quests gotta have the crafting system gotta have the upgrades gotta have the multiplayer mode gotta have the micro transactions. It’s exactly the same sort of assembly process that they use for movies. Gotta have the right group of good guys gotta have a villain gotta have a love interest gotta have a fight scene gotta have a kissing gotta have some big argument right before the third act gotta have the Marvel one liners gotta have an underdog gotta have something for the kids gotta have a lady to appeal to women gotta have a black guy for minority appeal, gotta have someone for the Chinese market… I remember Western devs got very upset at Elden Ring. Along came a game that did absolutely nothing like it was supposed to be. Western games are very maximalist; given the expense that goes into them they want you to see absolutely every dollar that they put into it. Ring doesn’t care about that. You can engage with the story as much or as little as you want. You can clear the game after killing just 16 bosses or you can kill hundreds of bosses to wipe the whole map. Elden Ring doesn’t level gate you to anything mandating that you clear all the side quests at the tavern or hit level 45 before it lets you do the next story mission. And most offensive to conventional Western Developer wisdom is Eldon ring is not handholding and Eldon ring does not clutter you with icons. The game trusts the player to do as they want and does not feel the need to unendingly here them from activity and checklist to activity and checklist to keep them engaged with the game artificially. The game isn’t built to facilitate a microtransaction addiction, the game isn’t built to get noisy reactions on UA-cam, the game isn’t built to start an esports scene, the game isn’t built to degerate stream highlights, The game isn’t built to be a lasting addiction like Skyrim, it’s built to be a game. Sadly I don’t think we’ll get our own special auteurs over here. The gaming industry in the West is extremely corporate and it’s all about hitting those committee expectations. Miyazaki got his start with a leap of faith after providing himself to a relatively liberal company. Yoko Taro is downright crazy and transgressive in a way frightening to shareholders.
@@Mortablunt I'm with you for the most part, but a large number of those 'assembly process boxes' you listed just don't work for the point that I think you're trying to go for here. 1. Open World - Largely varies by the design of any given game and flat out doesn't exist in a lot of them. Open World sections are often put in to instill a sense of freedom and replayability, though sometimes they come up short in execution. 2. Skins - Player expression. That's been a factor in games for a lot longer than the 'over-engineered feel' that a lot of us notice these days. Look at Halo and CoD in the days before MTX took over. 3. Random Quests - See 1. Side quests often serve to expand on the world or even introduce recurring characters, or simply to make the world itself feel fleshed out and alive. 4. Crafting System - Again, purpose varies based on game. Can feel 'engineered', but largely is based in a key part of games, being able to do something yourself. To interact and get something out of doing so. Not always necessary, but I think is something many appreciate. 5. Upgrades - I feel like a broken record with this. Varies by game and it's design. Some gameplay loops are defined heavily by statistical progression therefore upgrades are a must. 6. Multiplayer Mode - ...Just look at what I said with 5, 4, 3, and 1. Same concept. It's based heavily in design. 7. Micro-transactions - THIS actually fits. They don't really serve any purpose beyond pulling money from a game's playerbase, and usually done in invasive ways that leech off of the important facets like player expression or content. So 6 of 7 of these are important facets to any given game, with some being more or less important or altogether missing if it wouldn't work. Your list for movies also misses the mark, IMO. 1. Heroes and Villains - Lumping these two together. This is basic story-writing 101. Protagonists and antagonists. If either of these aren't done well, the story itself will suffer. Same with the world building. 2. Love Interests / romantic relationships - These elements in stories act as complicating factors that exert pressure on protagonists and antagonists alike, and done well, add further depth to characters who end up in them. 3. Fight Scenes - Heavily dependent on the story the movie is built around. Largely it draws from the conflict at hand. 4. Kissing Scene - This only works if you already have 2 in play. Serves as a payoff for a romantic buildup. It's like lighting a fuse and then the firework goes off. Done right, it feels earned. 5. Big arguments before the third act - This is one I'm not too sure of, coz I can only think of one or two examples where I've seen it and both instances have been well executed. Both cases served as key story points. Not like they were there just to be there. 6. Marvel One Liners - Depends on if it's a joke being made or if it's just a snarky comment IMO. Not too sure on that one either. 7. Underdogs - This is also kind of good story writing 101. Especially with hero stories like Marvel or DC. The whole point is for characters to be outmatched because if victory is assured, there is no tension and therefore no real payoff and the audience loses investment. 8. Women, Minority, and Kids appeal - These are all too often case by case basis and I can't call it one way or another. So what's the major takeaway here? It's not the check-boxing of these things. Especially with movies - and games - which are all often drawn from stories, it's the execution of these key facets that determines whether or not they feel 'assembly line produced'. If it doesn't fit naturally within the game, movie, or even book, it's going to come off as forced. In my opinion, it's short sighted to look these things and take them as 'checking boxes' without first recognizing how and where they fit into the subject being discussed. I'm probably running out of space here, so I'll tie this off with a comment on one of your other points. Outside of the microtransactions thing, most games aren't built to get reactions on YT, stream highlights, be lasting addictions, or anything else considered 'ulterior motives'. Most games, by my measure, ARE built to be games. Primarily, it has been the execution of ideas that's been subpar lately. As well as hijacking of otherwise core systems to push MTX or other 'shortcuts'.
In CE-H3 had diversity. Look at screenshots of gameplay from any multiplayer map. Even at a glance, you can tell the maps apart instantly. And the appearance of those maps follow their function. Zanzibar could be reimagined as covenant or forerunner themed, but why? It makes sense being Earth-themed. Gemini could be reimagined as UNSC or forerunner themed, but why? That Truth hologram just makes sense in a covenant environment. But with Reach-Infinite, the theme of the maps were totally interchangeable with few exceptions. Haven was the most unique map in H4 because I can't imagine that as a UNSC map with all its gravity lifts, but the rest of them feel like they were focus-tested to be as inoffensive and bland as possible. Long gone is that bridge on Zanzibar or that rotating cover piece on Ascension, or the gates and melee-bridges on Turf, or the stalagmites on Waterworks, or the conveyer belts on Elongation, or the switch-gates on Containment and Standoff, or the turrets on Snowbound. Are teleporters even featured in maps anymore? I don't remember seeing any in the 343 era, unless they were remakes of older maps. 343 traded gameplay depth for the width of their player base, and we all know how well that turned out.
After the video, I looked to see how many thousand subs you had, and was shocked! The editing and style of this video are a home run, and your handling of the argument very mature. 10/10 you deserve better
That was the charm to the forerunner stuff in the lore as well. It was mysterious and all we had were tiny bits of info here and there but halo 4 plus a trilogy of novels decided we should explain every last detail about them. Like a horror movie its better to leave much of it up to the imagination, especially when it doesn't even make for a better story.
I liked the forerunner books a lot i just wish they kept all of that stuff out of the games. Originally there was debate within bungie if forerunners were ancient humans or another race and i dont think they ever really resolved that they just left it up to the player minus the last line by 343 guilty spark "you are the child of my makers inheritor of all they left behind. You are forerunner, but this ring is mine". Not sure which concept i would have preferred at the end of the day i just wish old bungie still existed.
@@randomhiphop5055 Agreed, the forerunner novels are my favourite halo books, even outside of halo they're just genuinely really well written sci fi. But that weird intense alien ambience that everything forerunner used to give off has definately been squandered.
It’s super subjective if it makes for a better story or not. As a lore fan I like to learn every detail possible. I don’t care to have as much mystery in the story. And that way it makes it more memorable if it’s used sparingly
@@EggEnjoyer The idea of humans and Forerunners being the same is super clique. Forerunners and humans having the same creator like humans and angels do in religion is a helluva lot cooler
@@randomhiphop5055 They did resolve it, and it was with Halo 3 they decided they were two separate races. However, with Bungie's style of storytelling, the ability for you to decide what the case is sticks with you.
You are so spot on with part about 343i trying to make everything storybased. You explained it well when you said Bungie has lore tid bits but that was all. They prioritized fun over everything and look whose games are more popular
DUDE I love how you said bungie kept their locations vague and left the backstory to us. It lets our minds wonder and lets us have a creative take. I loved how vague the description was on the maps. they were so haunting and cryptic, you had absolutely no idea why the structures were there. at some point you didn't care, you were happy to just imagine what it was like out there beyond the map. 343 comes in and says, "no, this is where it came from, this is how it was formed, here's who created it and why." it kills the thrill. I also want to add that bungie's "blam!" engine on H3 had that "90's feel" to it. Obviously it was a modern engine but it felt perfect. The perfect balance between a little dated architecture and just new enough to get the job done. H3 was unapologetically Halo. Nothing can top H3.
@@PackHunter117 Yeah but don't speak for all lore nerds. I myself love to know any details I can about the maps and what their relations are to the inner workings of the covenant or the flood or the UNSC, etc. However I don't enjoy forced lore telling where everything is so sterilized and clean cut and there's no mystery. You have to have some degree of mystery in a story, questions for the player to ask themselves and make them actually THINK about the story. Like here's the map description of Halo 3's Narrows: "Without cooling systems such as these, excess heat from the Ark's forges would render the construct uninhabitable." It describes the location and its purpose but doesn't go into further detail. There is a balance to it and I'd rather have too little details about a map's relation to the game's lore and world building so I can think about what the purpose of it might be and get creative and more excited about thinking about the game than have them tell me: "This location was used by the brutes to mine blah blah from the mountains but then it became a highly contested battleground with the UNSC" like where's the mystery in that. Where's the space for me as a fan of the story to imagine anything. Learning every little detail about the story is fun -- to a degree. There come's a point where a story over does it and removes all the fun of mystery out of it and then there's no wondering about "what could have took place here?" when you see a partially destroyed covenant/forerunner structure or a convenant/forerunner base that is now overgrown with algae and moss and forestry. To each their own if you like having every little detail available but i like there to be enough information to make me interested but not too much so I can imagine why this structure was abandoned or how this location fits into the larger picture and plans of the covenant/unsc/whoever.
@@YuYuYuna_ That’s what the Precursors, early Covenant and human history, the many holes of the Insurrection wars, a lot of current holes in the War of Annihilation, the Covenant Fringe, questions like what do female Unggoy or Jiralhanae look like, and other stuff is for my guy. Heck we didn’t know Thrallslayer was still alive and had joined the Banished until the Encyclopedia even though everyone assumed he did. However it’s anyones guess til 343 confirms it if he massacred the Councillors in the H2A terminal or if there are or were other Brutes that wore the armor Thrallslayer wears. Then there’s also not much info on what Jackal Pirate life is like. We don’t know if the Prometheans are still around or not. We’ll never know all the species that didn’t get indexed by the Forerunners before the Halo Array fired. And now thanks to Infinite there’s the Endless too now. And there’s still Halo Rings we’ve not been on yet. And also what Forerunner life was like such as civilian life. And yes visually we’ve never seen Forerunners outside of a few pictures and terminals of mostly the Librarian and Didact. And so so so much more mystery
@Kimi Timoskainen Read my comment to YuYuYu and you’ll see over 10 examples of mystery still left in Halo. And now with the Endless there’s even more new mystery. But even without the Endless there’s still much mystery left.
A big point you didn’t mention was the introduction of more movement mechanics and options in later halo games. Designing maps with intentional sight lines, player routes, power positions, safe spawns ect is much harder when you have to account for more than just one base movement speed like in older halo games. The general speed of recent halo games requires play spaces to be expanded to accommodate the game mechanics. The more ‘powerful’ the player becomes the weaker the map becomes. What was once a wall you have to walk around to engage in combat in halo 3 becomes something you can just clamber over in halo 5.
@@yoyo21926 that’s my point. Maps have to be adjusted, rescaled and reworked to work in a new sandbox where the player has a lot more options. If you played construct from H3 with the jet packs from 4 and reach it totally changes the routes that are available to the players in the game.
@@yoyo21926 No, it really wasn't. All you needed was what was there. Things like crouch jumping and being able to move in any direction while aiming in any other direction was enough. If players wanted more options that was what the vehicles and map pickups like halo 3 equipment were for.
@@brandonjohnston7757 i dont think i wanna pickk up an equipment just to sprint slide clamber. why dont we remove jump while we are at it and stick that on a equipment.
Halo 1: wacky maps for a chill evening with the boys after a day at work. Halo 2: felt like a classic arena shooter with funny moments and banter. Halo 3: The Forgening. Halo Reach: Forge 2: electric boogaloo. Halo 4 onwards feel like every multiplayer match is equivalent to grating my testicles over a cheese grater. The maps don't even feel mysterious or fun anymore. Pretty much every Halo player I still hang with almost exclusively plays MCC nowadays. I don't give a damn about war games or E-sports or the UNSC infinity. I just want to splatter people in a forklift dressed as a big dumb golden Elite armed with a golf club. Halo was made, at it's core, to he a social game. Rip that out and you rip out it's very soul.
This has got to be one of the best summaries of how at least I feel that I've even seen. I think it puts to words in a very unique way what a lot of people feel and think. It's important to focus on things like old map design in a way where you say more than "old map design". That is something I'm very guilty of, but I love the way you specifically mention how the map should feel free to just be a halo map. That alone is such a big point. To hell with the aesthetic being natural, make it naturally feel like a shooty map! Great quality too this video needs more views for sure
When you mentioned there are no ways to flank anymore + all the open areas, that really made sense. We can only hope that people will forge more fun maps.
Noticing the map decline with Reach was the best part, but needed more emphasis on Bungie copying 1:1 campaign sections into multiplayer. I could never tell if those maps started with multiplayer in mind (Boneyard, Spire, Sword Base, especially Boardwalk). The Cage and Powerhouse were both really good, though. It'd be really nice to see a follow up video cause if you went through a few map vs map case studies, it'd be much more informative design-wise. When you really look, 343 doesn't do lore practical layouts either and a lot of the geometry and paths are arbitrary and akin to a paintball field. That doesn't make it "competitive" design, just simpler to draft. It's not that the map concepts are boring, it's that- at most opportunities- 343's geometry and dynamics are infuriatingly timid. For example: Did you know, Halo 4 has not one, but TWO maps with running trains on them? Well, if you didn't, that's probably because they both run high above the player with no influence on the playspace at all. The maps are Perdition and Harvest. Terminal was one of my favorite maps from H2 just cause I thought the insanely exposed energy sword sitting on the active monorail that runs along the entire level's length was funny. Plus the warthog has multiple jumps across it. Awesome shortcut or humiliating execution by the Guardians? It's all up to player timing. Round 2, Halo 2 isn't the only title to introduce a brand new map focused on harnessing wind power. While Zanzibar has a slowly spinning wind turbine you can climb onto and a deployable access bridge and gate for the attacking team, Vortex (H4) is a quasi-symmetrical map that has no dynamic map elements, just infantry-only mancannons and rolling hills with a central base that has numerous hatch escapes. Turf vs. Bazaar (Infinite), Blackout vs. The Rig (H5), Midship vs. Coliseum (H5), Waterworks vs. Shatter (H4), Headlong vs. The Spire (Reach) would also probably be worthy of more direct comparisons. Laid out like this, it's really baffling how close they come to hitting the mark, but just end up whiffing it by missing that special sauce.
The bungee maps also felt like you were a tourist visiting these areas you normally wouldn’t in the campaign. Their diversity also kept the game and world interesting and if they fucking kept playable Elites they could absolutely add more diverse Maps with lore in mind if the game mode was invasion. The diversity also gave you the sense you were in a universe in conflict.
First time ever watching any of your vids and that opening was a hell of a way to grab a new viewer's interest right away. Good stuff man, I like your style!
Something that was driving me nuts in Halo Infinite were the god damn pit falls in the middle of certain maps. WAY too many of the maps had certain doom waiting below. Too many times, I was in a heated firefight, double kill, TRIPLE KILL, I leap into the air to play aggressive, shields down, going for a headshot!......"Suicide" I can't understand the logic of having pit falls in the middle of maps, maybe it'd be intresting for 1 map, but I can think of like 3 maps in Infinite off the top of my head that have them.
@epic7783 Maybe you should just get better at increasing your IQ beyond room temperature, lmfao. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people while I sit back and have a good laugh at your next spaz out.
they had character before. arenas, hydro electric plants, beaches, satellite arrays, forgotten forests, space stations, you name it. now we just get generic sci fi town square or generic sci fi military base
Imo Bungie made maps unique in a sense that they have a feeling being different. There were landmarks that you can easily tell what it came from. From lighting, to the ambiance, and to the backgrounds. Sure there was remastered or reworked maps, even then they weren't just a coat of paint they were differnt in their own way to make it stand out a bit. Newer maps from 343i well a few did stand out, most felt the same in the weird way. I still sometimes load old maps and run around to just explore them. So much effort and love were placed into the maps.
Because 343i decided to make multiplayer “canon” to the campaign. So now most infinite maps just consist of forerunner structures and UNSC/Banished bases
Something you prob should’ve mentioned is that if bungie came out with the “training simulation” excuse for halo 1 we might’ve never gotten cool shit like red vs blue
This was very well done, and I was amazed to notice just how few subs you've got. I look forward to whatever you do next. On a side note I agree with everything you said here; the new maps just don't have the same luster as the ones in the old games.
Draining is an accurate word. Too many people categorize things as good or bad, but Infinite isn’t either, since bland is how I describe it, which might be worse than being bad.
Dam okay like the vid and didn’t even realize that the full 9 mins had passed already . Love your style feel free to keep it up . Also love how you didn’t hang on any hate for the maps just if they felt fun or not.
You raise good points! Me and some guys on reach have been making cgb compatible mods/maps lately and some of the maps are just spectacular. I cant wait for the community to see it all
I haven't run into this perspective on maps before. Thanks for the insights, and work done to create this! Great video!!! Going to check out some of your other stuff.
I miss halo's classic map design. So many iconic designs. I hate the artificial design barriers that 343 give themselves. They are so obsessed with Spartans its just a bit rediculous. That might be why we won't see our elites back anytime soon. 😔 I also miss the classic gun sounds! Regardless, good stuff here, man! 😁👌🏻
What’s even funnier is Halo Online with the UNSC Anvil Station has Elites and Spartans training together. And the Shadow of Intent actually has its own Elite version of the War Games simulator. So 343 can’t even use the lore as an excuse for no Elites in multiplayer
@@PackHunter117 yeah, absolutely! it would fit the lore so, they dont have an excuse! 😅 I think it'd be absolutely badass to see Spartans training with elites! I wish they were around. Besides the stuff with them in Halo 5, it feels like they were never even our allies in the story currently. I miss em! Well said!
maybe its a result of the game mode i played most in reach being infection, but i felt like most reach maps had their own unique spots that, from a 'fair and balanced' gameplay perspective, completely broke the maps, but made playing them all the more fun. sword base had the hallway to the air lift vent that all the humans would sit in the back of and slowly one by one the zombies would rush in and kill them until the last guy had to escape up the lift knowing full well that there'd be zombies waiting at the top, boardwalk and countdown each had places that youd boost on top of using other players and those that couldnt make it up get killed first only to come for you after. then after reach fell into 343's hands, the infection multiplayer pool of maps pretty much removed those and replaced them with edited versions that removed those spots or blocked them off. when i played infection in halo 4, it felt like no map had any good place to hold out and i had much less fun. also, dont know why they removed the ability for infection game modes to involve infected using other eapons because that killed a lot of possibility for custom gamemodes like swat, fatboy, or duckhunt
I miss games not being designed to be total sweatfests and more centered around being fun. They really had to manhandle all the aspects of the game until you played how they wanted you to.
Between Halo 2, 3, and Reach, there were over 60 maps to chose from. Given that Infinite was supposed to be the "definitive halo" and the "long term live service" you'd think they could've just remade 10-12 of the most classic, nostalgic, agreed upon good maps in halo's history and went with that for launch, but instead they decided to ship the game with... a middle-eastern town, a space weed farm, a shooting range, and some random streets _at night_
Halo CE had some of the most experimental multiplayer maps. Like boarding action where you have two space ships with 5 levels and the vacuum of space between them. Each floor on both ships had teleporters which allowed players to warp from one to the other. Chiron was also one that utilized teleporters in an interesting way. This area was a labyrinth with teleporters all over the place linked to one another in a seemingly random pattern. It made navigation tricky and confusing though it is possible to commit how all the teleporters link together to memory.
OG halo maps always had a unique flow and style to them that set itself apart from other fps games. In an ideal world we'd have maps built for social play and maps built for competitive modes in Infinite but we can't even get maps period. I also don't understand 343's philosophy of not remaking beloved maps and how there wasn't a single one in Infinite. Where's midship, zanzibar, ascension, Turf, Guardian, Lockout any of these?! Thank God we're finally getting a pit remake but it won't come till next year, like wtf.
The shift in map design is because 343 have made the focus on Spartans/Military. They are therefore making more "Realistic" human maps which ends up lacking in creativity and Scifi aesthetic.
Currently working on a map in halo 5. I want a beach arena map with two sort of lanes, one higher than the other, and some sort of forerunner structure in the middle, flaming drop pods and gunned down corpses indicating you're not the only ones to have fought here
Yeah, as I love the Halo Reach maps so much- whether they’re remakes or simple forge maps, it changed right after. I miss how they made the maps, like CE’s were insanity during matches but that’s what made it so fun. I do however, really enjoyed some of the maps in 4 and 5- it gave us a deeper dive into how the colonies looked like behind reading about them. If only they balanced it out, I would’ve been okay.
Reaches maps were awful. They were terribly designed for MP. they took them from campaign areas and repurposed them. Easily the worst maps in the series as far as the entire game collection of average goes
Me and my friends did reach forge world. We put tanks in pillboxes for across the map sniping. We made floating towers for sniping as well. Alot a sniping actually. It was one of the first games I played where bullets didn't disapear quite so short a range. We had fun. We liked the elephant level in 3 as well. We built bases all over, I put one in the minefield. It kinda worked. Good times.
@@zubbworks Oh yeah I know the feeling man. I really enjoyed the maps that didn’t even make sense as well, there’s just random structures and weapons laying around the map. Basically no style of anything, really fun with random people joining to kill each other on. I also really liked Sword Base, despite it being camping lift 101.
I like what reach did with the older maps to give them a practical place with cool details And hang ‘em high became a fucking astounding slipspace gate area
Solid video, don't think maps will ever be as fun as the OG's purely because the gameplay in infinite is sweat-focused as opposed to fun. If you're out in the open, you're basically dead on sight. In Halo 3, the person shooting had to be able to lead their shots properly and even then the distance made it difficult to kill enemies at distance so was nicely balanced for open-areas etc
@epic7783 You don't have to be a chef to criticize a chef. Not to mention, fans are far better at making Halo related things than 343 ever had and ever will be. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people.
@epic7783 ROFLMAO! Right on cue on giving me the inevitable reply like usual with you people. Since you have absolutely nothing to say to counter my comment, you had to become so obsessed with how old a comment is, lmfao. It's clear I struck a nerve. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people.
Honestly, great fucking video. Reach is one of (if not) my favorite games in the series, and I never really thought about the maps not having *that* set piece in them. Interesting to think about. Whenever I think about older games, I think I chalk a lot of the cool shit up to naivety and not having a blueprint that “works”. It felt more like “this sounds cool, let’s throw a giant Ferris wheel in the middle of the map” and less trying to balance for comp scene. I dont think one is inherently better than the other, but it is interesting to think about the difference from halo 1/2/3 to reach on beyond.
Pretty good video, enjoyable. Some of my favorite maps in shooters make no sense, like Facing Worlds in UT or that map in space made of platforms in Red Faction 2. Another problem is how vehicles are no longer the focus of BTB. In nuHalo basically all BTB maps have 3 lanes for vehicles, and trees and rocks are placed all along on their sides. It kinds of separates vehicles and players on foot, vehicles are confined on their rail roads and spartans can just pop out of the woods, fire at them, and then go back hiding. Thinking about it, 343 kind of made big maps not open enough, and small maps a little too open. Gameplay and weapons also made BTB worse I guess, big maps wouldn't need so many obstacles if DMR and newer BRs weren't so precise. In Halo 3, the slight RNG spread of the BR meant it lost effectiveness at longer range, allowing players to move out in open spaces without getting consistently completely destroyed in seconds by anyone looking at them no matter the distance. That, and vehicles being made of paper since Reach, they can easily fall to concentrated AR/BR fire. (let's not talk about Halo 4 where you could spawn with plasma pistol and plasma grenades...what were they thinking???)
I've come to realise that complaining and ranting is a sort of therapy, it's why young people are soo neurotic because their lives are a mess. This is what Halo fanbase is in right now, one big therapy session to get out some cathartic frustration and longing.
I missed how cozy the maps were. Hanging out by the beach in Zanzibar and all. Now everything has to be in the middle of a battlefield or lore consistent with no mystery. The Headlong gate, Sandtrap mystery, why are there turrets in Snowbound? Stuff like that
Same honestly I wish we didn't have to have a thematic event with a scripted story and new modes just to add a new goddamn map in a way that "makes sense" I want more behemoth that just drops you in a sandbox looking forerunner environment and just lets you go, aside from the spawn pads, weapon racks, Spartan callouts that don't make any goddamn sense in modes like SWAT (why is "popped their shields" coded to trigger EVERY TIME you do health damage on an enemy instead of when you pop their shields?)
As someone who got recommended this but basically has only played halo for all of 3 minutes. I miss the fantasy maps of kid icarus uprising. They were small but unique and barely concerned themselves with canon. One match you’re on a floating Sci-fi disk, the next match you’re fighting in a volcano, then the next you’re in a crystal cave, the next you’re on some compound in space. Good times. :3
One of my issues with 343 summed up at 6:54. The whole everything is lore is ridiculous and actually hurts immersion rather than improving it. Not everything in real life is engineered perfectly in a space to make it look the most practical optimized version it can be anyway so as long as you have some of the flavor, you can have some of the nonsensical design. Your maps aren't going to be scrutinized at a cinema sins level by the community. Focus should be on art, fun, and balance. Not realism. I haven't touched Infinite since launch week or so. Forge has been its greatest strength and kept me somewhat interested from a distance. Core gameplay and the maps are both lacking for me, I just prefer Halo 2 and Halo 3 without sprint and I think Halo 5 was the best of the advanced movement games in terms of going all the way with that concept.
I ironically was okay with Halo 5 combat changes but the maps took a huge nosedive in terms of creativity and Unique, even its forge maps looked bland in comparison to reach. The soul in map design nowadays it feels like it was made for other fpses.
I agree 100% and its the same reason I lile Valorants maps so much. They just exist in these impossible scenarios floating in the sky or on the ocean floor. Bring back fun maps. Bring back fun games.
Interesting take, I agree, the lack of explicit explanation for most H1-H3 maps allowed your imagination to run wild. The abstract maps were some of my favorites, but I also miss the maps based on Rule of Cool too. I don't want to be fed a justification for the things I'm doing, I'm playing a videogame lol
What is crazy, given this new focus on making the multiplayer maps behave in a certain way we would not have gotten some of the most iconic maps. Zanzibar and lockout would not fit this paradigm of we have to make both bases exactly the same and everything the same looking arena. The maps are smaller so you almost never go more than 10 seconds without running into an enemy so it becomes quick twitch muscles and landing shotd, but the plotting is just as important. Like in design the blank space is just as important.
I mean it makes sense though. Militaries always have mil sims. And the idea that your Spartan is in the lore duking it out with other players is super cool.
The thing that some of the best maps have is one big thing. Like a giant spinning wheel or spire. They think so micro with every little thing in their maps now
I agree completely. 343 sacrificed fun on the altar of competitive gameplay. Not everything needs to be grounded and canon lore. It’s okay to just go crazy and have fun with these ridiculous maps like a random forerunner structure in the trees (Guardian) or a floating flood containment base in an icy region of the world (Lockout). Just have fun with it, dammit! They were so close but still missed the mark
@@Wylie288 that’s my point- there’s nothing fun about the new maps because 343 only focuses on making competitive play based maps while overlooking more environment with lore based maps
I have a huge amount of nostalgia for the original Halo maps. I also think most are objectively good, but the new maps in Halo Infinite are mostly great too. Had they come out first everyone would love them.
Unique outlook on the Halo maps. I liked when things didn't make sense. Made things wacky and fun, like Sandbox. You are in a sand bowl surrounded by Forerunner Guardians and their lasers. Do we know why we are there? Nope! Is it fun? Yes it is.
That's what I've noticed most of the new Halo is lacking. Fun. I don't even care if I win a match as long as I had fun in it. Now it's all so dang competitive all the time and it's exhausting. I'm not gonna keep playing a game if I keep getting stomped on by some sweaty try hards over and over again. That's not fun and I don't have the time or want to also become a sweaty try hard just so I can brag about "muh K/D."
@@spectralassassin6030 fr
@@spectralassassin6030 Yeah, the constant competitiveness of 343s Halo games is exhausting.
it just adds to one of life's greatest Mysteries
True
You'd think the concept of it being simulated arenas would mean they could go more all-out because now they're not limited by halo's reality.
But they gotta appease the pros though and they dont like our version of fun.
@@Khronik_ That was honestly one of the worst decisions they made. Halo wasn't built on competitive play. It was built on the thought process of "Is this fun? No? Thow it out. Yes? Keep it in." Now it's all "muh K/D!" Honestly feels like I'm playing CoD sometimes and that is one of the worst things to say about Halo.
That’s very true. 3 steps forward with the cool mil sim idea with your Spartan being a background character with 6 steps backward with the heavy MLG human themed maps.
@@spectralassassin6030 Even worse is when they ruined Community breakout in Guardians because it wasn't fair or something, so they added shields and gave everyone shotguns basically killing the flow of the game. Like, bro, community breakout was by far the most fun game mode in possibly the entire series and you ruined it because some sweaty competitive were whining, how asinine can you be?
@@Khronik_ Ehh I mean I don't think that's the reason why they are so un-creative with maps and tie them down to "lore accurate" battlegrounds. I mean the proof is in the pudding. Go back and look at what were the top Halo maps that were played in competitive tournaments like MLG, etc. For example in Halo3 there was The pit, Heretic, Guardian, Narrows that were played a ton in competitive and those maps all have different styles and layouts. So I don't think it's an issue of listening to the pros. I think it's that 343 has no creativity themselves to design maps so they think the "safest" bet is to listen to pro players (who also have no creativity for map design or aesthetics).
"Over-Engineered" - This one term sums up my entire vibe from modern gaming. I seem like I'm constantly saying this, but it feels like this is happening EVERYWHERE. In a way, it kind of is? Like, you're right about a number of things 343 did as part of the Halo space, but I'm of the opinion that the wider gaming industry standards hold a lot of blame that, when talking about Halo and only Halo, end up lost. Every other game franchise-centric creator also seems to fall into this, too, for the record. Rarely do I hear CoD creators or whoever mention "Halo has the same issue" and such.
My hope is that one day, player fun and creativity become grander pillars of game design, because as it stands right now, there's way too much emphasis on how to science players into routines or playstyles and it really stinks. Halo Infinite is basically what I point to when someone asks me what went wrong with gaming. Trend following, microtransactions, competitive focused are just a few of the problems you could bring up. Tack on being riddled with bugs and having lackluster amounts of content to that, too.
I'm not holding my breath, though. Modern big-name gaming is in a vice grip by companies with way too many schemers trying nickel and dime us for our money as well as our fun.
Western gaming needs its own madman. Western gaming needs someone like its own Yoko Taro or Hidetaka Miyazaki. Someone who is just going to decide to make their game the way they want the best they can and damn the industry.
I can’t think of a single western auteur dev; The closest we get is Hideo Kojima because he just has does much stuff in the western style for a western audience. We essentially need a 2020s equivalent to what John Romero was in the 1990s. Think someone like Michal Kickinski or Andrew Prohorov, but turbocharged.
It’s quite unfortunate western games continue to be built essentially to specifications by committee, checking all the boxes to have the right number for wide appeal. Gotta have the open world gotta have the customizable skins gotta have the random quests gotta have the crafting system gotta have the upgrades gotta have the multiplayer mode gotta have the micro transactions. It’s exactly the same sort of assembly process that they use for movies. Gotta have the right group of good guys gotta have a villain gotta have a love interest gotta have a fight scene gotta have a kissing gotta have some big argument right before the third act gotta have the Marvel one liners gotta have an underdog gotta have something for the kids gotta have a lady to appeal to women gotta have a black guy for minority appeal, gotta have someone for the Chinese market…
I remember Western devs got very upset at Elden Ring. Along came a game that did absolutely nothing like it was supposed to be. Western games are very maximalist; given the expense that goes into them they want you to see absolutely every dollar that they put into it. Ring doesn’t care about that. You can engage with the story as much or as little as you want. You can clear the game after killing just 16 bosses or you can kill hundreds of bosses to wipe the whole map. Elden Ring doesn’t level gate you to anything mandating that you clear all the side quests at the tavern or hit level 45 before it lets you do the next story mission.
And most offensive to conventional Western Developer wisdom is Eldon ring is not handholding and Eldon ring does not clutter you with icons. The game trusts the player to do as they want and does not feel the need to unendingly here them from activity and checklist to activity and checklist to keep them engaged with the game artificially.
The game isn’t built to facilitate a microtransaction addiction, the game isn’t built to get noisy reactions on UA-cam, the game isn’t built to start an esports scene, the game isn’t built to degerate stream highlights, The game isn’t built to be a lasting addiction like Skyrim, it’s built to be a game.
Sadly I don’t think we’ll get our own special auteurs over here. The gaming industry in the West is extremely corporate and it’s all about hitting those committee expectations. Miyazaki got his start with a leap of faith after providing himself to a relatively liberal company. Yoko Taro is downright crazy and transgressive in a way frightening to shareholders.
@@Mortablunt I'm with you for the most part, but a large number of those 'assembly process boxes' you listed just don't work for the point that I think you're trying to go for here.
1. Open World - Largely varies by the design of any given game and flat out doesn't exist in a lot of them. Open World sections are often put in to instill a sense of freedom and replayability, though sometimes they come up short in execution.
2. Skins - Player expression. That's been a factor in games for a lot longer than the 'over-engineered feel' that a lot of us notice these days. Look at Halo and CoD in the days before MTX took over.
3. Random Quests - See 1. Side quests often serve to expand on the world or even introduce recurring characters, or simply to make the world itself feel fleshed out and alive.
4. Crafting System - Again, purpose varies based on game. Can feel 'engineered', but largely is based in a key part of games, being able to do something yourself. To interact and get something out of doing so. Not always necessary, but I think is something many appreciate.
5. Upgrades - I feel like a broken record with this. Varies by game and it's design. Some gameplay loops are defined heavily by statistical progression therefore upgrades are a must.
6. Multiplayer Mode - ...Just look at what I said with 5, 4, 3, and 1. Same concept. It's based heavily in design.
7. Micro-transactions - THIS actually fits. They don't really serve any purpose beyond pulling money from a game's playerbase, and usually done in invasive ways that leech off of the important facets like player expression or content.
So 6 of 7 of these are important facets to any given game, with some being more or less important or altogether missing if it wouldn't work. Your list for movies also misses the mark, IMO.
1. Heroes and Villains - Lumping these two together. This is basic story-writing 101. Protagonists and antagonists. If either of these aren't done well, the story itself will suffer. Same with the world building.
2. Love Interests / romantic relationships - These elements in stories act as complicating factors that exert pressure on protagonists and antagonists alike, and done well, add further depth to characters who end up in them.
3. Fight Scenes - Heavily dependent on the story the movie is built around. Largely it draws from the conflict at hand.
4. Kissing Scene - This only works if you already have 2 in play. Serves as a payoff for a romantic buildup. It's like lighting a fuse and then the firework goes off. Done right, it feels earned.
5. Big arguments before the third act - This is one I'm not too sure of, coz I can only think of one or two examples where I've seen it and both instances have been well executed. Both cases served as key story points. Not like they were there just to be there.
6. Marvel One Liners - Depends on if it's a joke being made or if it's just a snarky comment IMO. Not too sure on that one either.
7. Underdogs - This is also kind of good story writing 101. Especially with hero stories like Marvel or DC. The whole point is for characters to be outmatched because if victory is assured, there is no tension and therefore no real payoff and the audience loses investment.
8. Women, Minority, and Kids appeal - These are all too often case by case basis and I can't call it one way or another.
So what's the major takeaway here? It's not the check-boxing of these things. Especially with movies - and games - which are all often drawn from stories, it's the execution of these key facets that determines whether or not they feel 'assembly line produced'. If it doesn't fit naturally within the game, movie, or even book, it's going to come off as forced. In my opinion, it's short sighted to look these things and take them as 'checking boxes' without first recognizing how and where they fit into the subject being discussed.
I'm probably running out of space here, so I'll tie this off with a comment on one of your other points. Outside of the microtransactions thing, most games aren't built to get reactions on YT, stream highlights, be lasting addictions, or anything else considered 'ulterior motives'. Most games, by my measure, ARE built to be games. Primarily, it has been the execution of ideas that's been subpar lately. As well as hijacking of otherwise core systems to push MTX or other 'shortcuts'.
In CE-H3 had diversity. Look at screenshots of gameplay from any multiplayer map. Even at a glance, you can tell the maps apart instantly. And the appearance of those maps follow their function. Zanzibar could be reimagined as covenant or forerunner themed, but why? It makes sense being Earth-themed. Gemini could be reimagined as UNSC or forerunner themed, but why? That Truth hologram just makes sense in a covenant environment. But with Reach-Infinite, the theme of the maps were totally interchangeable with few exceptions. Haven was the most unique map in H4 because I can't imagine that as a UNSC map with all its gravity lifts, but the rest of them feel like they were focus-tested to be as inoffensive and bland as possible. Long gone is that bridge on Zanzibar or that rotating cover piece on Ascension, or the gates and melee-bridges on Turf, or the stalagmites on Waterworks, or the conveyer belts on Elongation, or the switch-gates on Containment and Standoff, or the turrets on Snowbound. Are teleporters even featured in maps anymore? I don't remember seeing any in the 343 era, unless they were remakes of older maps. 343 traded gameplay depth for the width of their player base, and we all know how well that turned out.
Those damned Gemini doors tho. Why are they so loud 😂😂
@@mitchconner2021 🤣
reach had forge world, halo 5 forge was insane and alot of amazing maps came out, halo 4.... well only Good was campaign
After the video, I looked to see how many thousand subs you had, and was shocked! The editing and style of this video are a home run, and your handling of the argument very mature. 10/10 you deserve better
Plus he doesn’t heart every comment because it exists on his video
That was the charm to the forerunner stuff in the lore as well. It was mysterious and all we had were tiny bits of info here and there but halo 4 plus a trilogy of novels decided we should explain every last detail about them. Like a horror movie its better to leave much of it up to the imagination, especially when it doesn't even make for a better story.
I liked the forerunner books a lot i just wish they kept all of that stuff out of the games. Originally there was debate within bungie if forerunners were ancient humans or another race and i dont think they ever really resolved that they just left it up to the player minus the last line by 343 guilty spark "you are the child of my makers inheritor of all they left behind. You are forerunner, but this ring is mine". Not sure which concept i would have preferred at the end of the day i just wish old bungie still existed.
@@randomhiphop5055 Agreed, the forerunner novels are my favourite halo books, even outside of halo they're just genuinely really well written sci fi. But that weird intense alien ambience that everything forerunner used to give off has definately been squandered.
It’s super subjective if it makes for a better story or not. As a lore fan I like to learn every detail possible. I don’t care to have as much mystery in the story. And that way it makes it more memorable if it’s used sparingly
@@EggEnjoyer The idea of humans and Forerunners being the same is super clique. Forerunners and humans having the same creator like humans and angels do in religion is a helluva lot cooler
@@randomhiphop5055 They did resolve it, and it was with Halo 3 they decided they were two separate races. However, with Bungie's style of storytelling, the ability for you to decide what the case is sticks with you.
You are so spot on with part about 343i trying to make everything storybased. You explained it well when you said Bungie has lore tid bits but that was all. They prioritized fun over everything and look whose games are more popular
2:50 "and halo one was just kind of... d-doin stuff man" 😂😂
DUDE I love how you said bungie kept their locations vague and left the backstory to us. It lets our minds wonder and lets us have a creative take. I loved how vague the description was on the maps. they were so haunting and cryptic, you had absolutely no idea why the structures were there. at some point you didn't care, you were happy to just imagine what it was like out there beyond the map.
343 comes in and says, "no, this is where it came from, this is how it was formed, here's who created it and why." it kills the thrill.
I also want to add that bungie's "blam!" engine on H3 had that "90's feel" to it. Obviously it was a modern engine but it felt perfect. The perfect balance between a little dated architecture and just new enough to get the job done. H3 was unapologetically Halo. Nothing can top H3.
While I agree that mystery is really cool here and there the lore nerds like myself love to learn every detail about the story if possible
@@PackHunter117 Yeah but don't speak for all lore nerds. I myself love to know any details I can about the maps and what their relations are to the inner workings of the covenant or the flood or the UNSC, etc. However I don't enjoy forced lore telling where everything is so sterilized and clean cut and there's no mystery. You have to have some degree of mystery in a story, questions for the player to ask themselves and make them actually THINK about the story. Like here's the map description of Halo 3's Narrows: "Without cooling systems such as these, excess heat from the Ark's forges would render the construct uninhabitable." It describes the location and its purpose but doesn't go into further detail. There is a balance to it and I'd rather have too little details about a map's relation to the game's lore and world building so I can think about what the purpose of it might be and get creative and more excited about thinking about the game than have them tell me: "This location was used by the brutes to mine blah blah from the mountains but then it became a highly contested battleground with the UNSC" like where's the mystery in that. Where's the space for me as a fan of the story to imagine anything. Learning every little detail about the story is fun -- to a degree. There come's a point where a story over does it and removes all the fun of mystery out of it and then there's no wondering about "what could have took place here?" when you see a partially destroyed covenant/forerunner structure or a convenant/forerunner base that is now overgrown with algae and moss and forestry. To each their own if you like having every little detail available but i like there to be enough information to make me interested but not too much so I can imagine why this structure was abandoned or how this location fits into the larger picture and plans of the covenant/unsc/whoever.
@@YuYuYuna_ That’s what the Precursors, early Covenant and human history, the many holes of the Insurrection wars, a lot of current holes in the War of Annihilation, the Covenant Fringe, questions like what do female Unggoy or Jiralhanae look like, and other stuff is for my guy. Heck we didn’t know Thrallslayer was still alive and had joined the Banished until the Encyclopedia even though everyone assumed he did. However it’s anyones guess til 343 confirms it if he massacred the Councillors in the H2A terminal or if there are or were other Brutes that wore the armor Thrallslayer wears. Then there’s also not much info on what Jackal Pirate life is like. We don’t know if the Prometheans are still around or not. We’ll never know all the species that didn’t get indexed by the Forerunners before the Halo Array fired. And now thanks to Infinite there’s the Endless too now. And there’s still Halo Rings we’ve not been on yet. And also what Forerunner life was like such as civilian life. And yes visually we’ve never seen Forerunners outside of a few pictures and terminals of mostly the Librarian and Didact. And so so so much more mystery
@Kimi Timoskainen Read my comment to YuYuYu and you’ll see over 10 examples of mystery still left in Halo. And now with the Endless there’s even more new mystery. But even without the Endless there’s still much mystery left.
@@PackHunter117 Meh.
A big point you didn’t mention was the introduction of more movement mechanics and options in later halo games. Designing maps with intentional sight lines, player routes, power positions, safe spawns ect is much harder when you have to account for more than just one base movement speed like in older halo games. The general speed of recent halo games requires play spaces to be expanded to accommodate the game mechanics. The more ‘powerful’ the player becomes the weaker the map becomes. What was once a wall you have to walk around to engage in combat in halo 3 becomes something you can just clamber over in halo 5.
make the wall higher. its what they did on the pit remake. they even added more ramps to encourage more fast movement.
@@yoyo21926 that’s my point. Maps have to be adjusted, rescaled and reworked to work in a new sandbox where the player has a lot more options. If you played construct from H3 with the jet packs from 4 and reach it totally changes the routes that are available to the players in the game.
@@SamWinks classic halo movement was too simple. its ok to add some new little things and reimagine classic maps a little to make it flow the same.
@@yoyo21926 No, it really wasn't. All you needed was what was there. Things like crouch jumping and being able to move in any direction while aiming in any other direction was enough. If players wanted more options that was what the vehicles and map pickups like halo 3 equipment were for.
@@brandonjohnston7757 i dont think i wanna pickk up an equipment just to sprint slide clamber. why dont we remove jump while we are at it and stick that on a equipment.
Remember the "social weekend" events in 3 and Reach? Everyone on both sides got together and messed around for the fun of it.
Halo 1: wacky maps for a chill evening with the boys after a day at work.
Halo 2: felt like a classic arena shooter with funny moments and banter.
Halo 3: The Forgening.
Halo Reach: Forge 2: electric boogaloo.
Halo 4 onwards feel like every multiplayer match is equivalent to grating my testicles over a cheese grater.
The maps don't even feel mysterious or fun anymore.
Pretty much every Halo player I still hang with almost exclusively plays MCC nowadays.
I don't give a damn about war games or E-sports or the UNSC infinity. I just want to splatter people in a forklift dressed as a big dumb golden Elite armed with a golf club.
Halo was made, at it's core, to he a social game. Rip that out and you rip out it's very soul.
This has got to be one of the best summaries of how at least I feel that I've even seen. I think it puts to words in a very unique way what a lot of people feel and think. It's important to focus on things like old map design in a way where you say more than "old map design". That is something I'm very guilty of, but I love the way you specifically mention how the map should feel free to just be a halo map. That alone is such a big point. To hell with the aesthetic being natural, make it naturally feel like a shooty map! Great quality too this video needs more views for sure
When you mentioned there are no ways to flank anymore + all the open areas, that really made sense. We can only hope that people will forge more fun maps.
That intro was gorgeous
High ground has ALWAYS been criminally underrated…
Noticing the map decline with Reach was the best part, but needed more emphasis on Bungie copying 1:1 campaign sections into multiplayer. I could never tell if those maps started with multiplayer in mind (Boneyard, Spire, Sword Base, especially Boardwalk). The Cage and Powerhouse were both really good, though.
It'd be really nice to see a follow up video cause if you went through a few map vs map case studies, it'd be much more informative design-wise. When you really look, 343 doesn't do lore practical layouts either and a lot of the geometry and paths are arbitrary and akin to a paintball field. That doesn't make it "competitive" design, just simpler to draft. It's not that the map concepts are boring, it's that- at most opportunities- 343's geometry and dynamics are infuriatingly timid.
For example: Did you know, Halo 4 has not one, but TWO maps with running trains on them? Well, if you didn't, that's probably because they both run high above the player with no influence on the playspace at all. The maps are Perdition and Harvest. Terminal was one of my favorite maps from H2 just cause I thought the insanely exposed energy sword sitting on the active monorail that runs along the entire level's length was funny. Plus the warthog has multiple jumps across it. Awesome shortcut or humiliating execution by the Guardians? It's all up to player timing. Round 2, Halo 2 isn't the only title to introduce a brand new map focused on harnessing wind power. While Zanzibar has a slowly spinning wind turbine you can climb onto and a deployable access bridge and gate for the attacking team, Vortex (H4) is a quasi-symmetrical map that has no dynamic map elements, just infantry-only mancannons and rolling hills with a central base that has numerous hatch escapes. Turf vs. Bazaar (Infinite), Blackout vs. The Rig (H5), Midship vs. Coliseum (H5), Waterworks vs. Shatter (H4), Headlong vs. The Spire (Reach) would also probably be worthy of more direct comparisons.
Laid out like this, it's really baffling how close they come to hitting the mark, but just end up whiffing it by missing that special sauce.
i really like your commentary-ish videos like this. you are super underrated.
Thanks so much!
@@SuperBounce If and when you make another I'll be waiting! My exact feelings and experience about newer Halos were nailed in this.
I miss when games were made to be fun.
The bungee maps also felt like you were a tourist visiting these areas you normally wouldn’t in the campaign. Their diversity also kept the game and world interesting and if they fucking kept playable Elites they could absolutely add more diverse Maps with lore in mind if the game mode was invasion. The diversity also gave you the sense you were in a universe in conflict.
First time ever watching any of your vids and that opening was a hell of a way to grab a new viewer's interest right away. Good stuff man, I like your style!
the aqua teen segment has me laughing so hard im crying thank you
Something that was driving me nuts in Halo Infinite were the god damn pit falls in the middle of certain maps. WAY too many of the maps had certain doom waiting below. Too many times, I was in a heated firefight, double kill, TRIPLE KILL, I leap into the air to play aggressive, shields down, going for a headshot!......"Suicide" I can't understand the logic of having pit falls in the middle of maps, maybe it'd be intresting for 1 map, but I can think of like 3 maps in Infinite off the top of my head that have them.
@epic7783 Maybe you should just get better at increasing your IQ beyond room temperature, lmfao. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people while I sit back and have a good laugh at your next spaz out.
they had character before. arenas, hydro electric plants, beaches, satellite arrays, forgotten forests, space stations, you name it. now we just get generic sci fi town square or generic sci fi military base
Imo Bungie made maps unique in a sense that they have a feeling being different. There were landmarks that you can easily tell what it came from. From lighting, to the ambiance, and to the backgrounds. Sure there was remastered or reworked maps, even then they weren't just a coat of paint they were differnt in their own way to make it stand out a bit.
Newer maps from 343i well a few did stand out, most felt the same in the weird way. I still sometimes load old maps and run around to just explore them. So much effort and love were placed into the maps.
Because 343i decided to make multiplayer “canon” to the campaign. So now most infinite maps just consist of forerunner structures and UNSC/Banished bases
Something you prob should’ve mentioned is that if bungie came out with the “training simulation” excuse for halo 1 we might’ve never gotten cool shit like red vs blue
This was very well done, and I was amazed to notice just how few subs you've got.
I look forward to whatever you do next.
On a side note I agree with everything you said here; the new maps just don't have the same luster as the ones in the old games.
"Draining" that's the best word I've come across to describe how I feel about Infinite's MP. I can't quite figure out why.
Draining is an accurate word. Too many people categorize things as good or bad, but Infinite isn’t either, since bland is how I describe it, which might be worse than being bad.
"and why won't my wife answer my calls..." XD I chuckled
Dam okay like the vid and didn’t even realize that the full 9 mins had passed already . Love your style feel free to keep it up . Also love how you didn’t hang on any hate for the maps just if they felt fun or not.
You raise good points! Me and some guys on reach have been making cgb compatible mods/maps lately and some of the maps are just spectacular. I cant wait for the community to see it all
Thanks man! Excited to see what you’ve got cookin!
I haven't run into this perspective on maps before. Thanks for the insights, and work done to create this! Great video!!! Going to check out some of your other stuff.
That intro got me man. I wasn’t expecting that. 😢 thanks for making a great video FROM THE JUMP.
I miss halo's classic map design. So many iconic designs. I hate the artificial design barriers that 343 give themselves. They are so obsessed with Spartans its just a bit rediculous. That might be why we won't see our elites back anytime soon. 😔 I also miss the classic gun sounds! Regardless, good stuff here, man! 😁👌🏻
What’s even funnier is Halo Online with the UNSC Anvil Station has Elites and Spartans training together. And the Shadow of Intent actually has its own Elite version of the War Games simulator. So 343 can’t even use the lore as an excuse for no Elites in multiplayer
@@PackHunter117 yeah, absolutely! it would fit the lore so, they dont have an excuse! 😅 I think it'd be absolutely badass to see Spartans training with elites! I wish they were around. Besides the stuff with them in Halo 5, it feels like they were never even our allies in the story currently. I miss em! Well said!
maybe its a result of the game mode i played most in reach being infection, but i felt like most reach maps had their own unique spots that, from a 'fair and balanced' gameplay perspective, completely broke the maps, but made playing them all the more fun. sword base had the hallway to the air lift vent that all the humans would sit in the back of and slowly one by one the zombies would rush in and kill them until the last guy had to escape up the lift knowing full well that there'd be zombies waiting at the top, boardwalk and countdown each had places that youd boost on top of using other players and those that couldnt make it up get killed first only to come for you after. then after reach fell into 343's hands, the infection multiplayer pool of maps pretty much removed those and replaced them with edited versions that removed those spots or blocked them off. when i played infection in halo 4, it felt like no map had any good place to hold out and i had much less fun. also, dont know why they removed the ability for infection game modes to involve infected using other eapons because that killed a lot of possibility for custom gamemodes like swat, fatboy, or duckhunt
I miss games not being designed to be total sweatfests and more centered around being fun. They really had to manhandle all the aspects of the game until you played how they wanted you to.
Between Halo 2, 3, and Reach, there were over 60 maps to chose from. Given that Infinite was supposed to be the "definitive halo" and the "long term live service" you'd think they could've just remade 10-12 of the most classic, nostalgic, agreed upon good maps in halo's history and went with that for launch, but instead they decided to ship the game with... a middle-eastern town, a space weed farm, a shooting range, and some random streets _at night_
Halo CE had some of the most experimental multiplayer maps. Like boarding action where you have two space ships with 5 levels and the vacuum of space between them. Each floor on both ships had teleporters which allowed players to warp from one to the other. Chiron was also one that utilized teleporters in an interesting way. This area was a labyrinth with teleporters all over the place linked to one another in a seemingly random pattern. It made navigation tricky and confusing though it is possible to commit how all the teleporters link together to memory.
The Halo CE maps were banged out in like 2 weeks when they decided they should have multiplayer at the last second lol. So many good maps too.
OG halo maps always had a unique flow and style to them that set itself apart from other fps games. In an ideal world we'd have maps built for social play and maps built for competitive modes in Infinite but we can't even get maps period. I also don't understand 343's philosophy of not remaking beloved maps and how there wasn't a single one in Infinite. Where's midship, zanzibar, ascension, Turf, Guardian, Lockout any of these?! Thank God we're finally getting a pit remake but it won't come till next year, like wtf.
Probably because people got mad at them for doubling the map size for sprint.
Back in my day we had a single stone wall in the middle of a canyon that only lead to a river. AND WE HAD FUN
The shift in map design is because 343 have made the focus on Spartans/Military. They are therefore making more "Realistic" human maps which ends up lacking in creativity and Scifi aesthetic.
They lack anything lol.
Currently working on a map in halo 5. I want a beach arena map with two sort of lanes, one higher than the other, and some sort of forerunner structure in the middle, flaming drop pods and gunned down corpses indicating you're not the only ones to have fought here
At least at the time as a middle/high schooler, I thought the “it’s all a digital training exercise” thing was kinda neat touch
Yeah, as I love the Halo Reach maps so much- whether they’re remakes or simple forge maps, it changed right after. I miss how they made the maps, like CE’s were insanity during matches but that’s what made it so fun.
I do however, really enjoyed some of the maps in 4 and 5- it gave us a deeper dive into how the colonies looked like behind reading about them. If only they balanced it out, I would’ve been okay.
Reaches maps were awful. They were terribly designed for MP. they took them from campaign areas and repurposed them. Easily the worst maps in the series as far as the entire game collection of average goes
@@Wylie288 Understandable bro, I respect your opinion. 👍
@@Wylie288 Strongly disagree but hey Reach was a game that you either loved or you hated.
Me and my friends did reach forge world. We put tanks in pillboxes for across the map sniping. We made floating towers for sniping as well. Alot a sniping actually. It was one of the first games I played where bullets didn't disapear quite so short a range. We had fun.
We liked the elephant level in 3 as well. We built bases all over, I put one in the minefield. It kinda worked.
Good times.
@@zubbworks Oh yeah I know the feeling man. I really enjoyed the maps that didn’t even make sense as well, there’s just random structures and weapons laying around the map. Basically no style of anything, really fun with random people joining to kill each other on.
I also really liked Sword Base, despite it being camping lift 101.
Those opening eleven seconds hit me on an emotional level I cannot fully explain
I like what reach did with the older maps to give them a practical place with cool details
And hang ‘em high became a fucking astounding slipspace gate area
Solid video, don't think maps will ever be as fun as the OG's purely because the gameplay in infinite is sweat-focused as opposed to fun. If you're out in the open, you're basically dead on sight. In Halo 3, the person shooting had to be able to lead their shots properly and even then the distance made it difficult to kill enemies at distance so was nicely balanced for open-areas etc
Great vid man! Subbed. Can’t wait to see more from you.
H5 Plaza is one of my favorites maps in all of halo.
Did you mean: 343 has no idea how to make anything halo related?
@epic7783 You don't have to be a chef to criticize a chef. Not to mention, fans are far better at making Halo related things than 343 ever had and ever will be. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people.
@epic7783 ROFLMAO! Right on cue on giving me the inevitable reply like usual with you people. Since you have absolutely nothing to say to counter my comment, you had to become so obsessed with how old a comment is, lmfao. It's clear I struck a nerve. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people.
Dude I LOVE ridiculous wacky map design like CE. They’re my favorite to slap together in Reach’s forge.
I hope this channel blows up, this is genuinely a really great video
Subbed just off the Chiron/Aqua Teen combo reference. Also great vid all around.
Zanzibar is goated in my family and friends, so much time spent on that "windmill beach""
Great video! Really loved the editing! I hope 343 eventually learns from their mistakes but who knows?
Honestly, great fucking video. Reach is one of (if not) my favorite games in the series, and I never really thought about the maps not having *that* set piece in them. Interesting to think about.
Whenever I think about older games, I think I chalk a lot of the cool shit up to naivety and not having a blueprint that “works”. It felt more like “this sounds cool, let’s throw a giant Ferris wheel in the middle of the map” and less trying to balance for comp scene.
I dont think one is inherently better than the other, but it is interesting to think about the difference from halo 1/2/3 to reach on beyond.
We currently live in the minimalist dark age where corporate greed mutilates everything it touches, from franchises to culture.
Pretty good video, enjoyable. Some of my favorite maps in shooters make no sense, like Facing Worlds in UT or that map in space made of platforms in Red Faction 2.
Another problem is how vehicles are no longer the focus of BTB. In nuHalo basically all BTB maps have 3 lanes for vehicles, and trees and rocks are placed all along on their sides. It kinds of separates vehicles and players on foot, vehicles are confined on their rail roads and spartans can just pop out of the woods, fire at them, and then go back hiding. Thinking about it, 343 kind of made big maps not open enough, and small maps a little too open.
Gameplay and weapons also made BTB worse I guess, big maps wouldn't need so many obstacles if DMR and newer BRs weren't so precise. In Halo 3, the slight RNG spread of the BR meant it lost effectiveness at longer range, allowing players to move out in open spaces without getting consistently completely destroyed in seconds by anyone looking at them no matter the distance. That, and vehicles being made of paper since Reach, they can easily fall to concentrated AR/BR fire. (let's not talk about Halo 4 where you could spawn with plasma pistol and plasma grenades...what were they thinking???)
If you feel the editing is too much then sure don't hit that quality bar, but I do want more like this.
2:20 made me actually laugh out loud. Good shit, my man.
Good stuff, I hope your channel grows. New Sub.
edit: Chiron TL-34 was awesome, after you spent hours memorizing every teleporter.
I've come to realise that complaining and ranting is a sort of therapy, it's why young people are soo neurotic because their lives are a mess.
This is what Halo fanbase is in right now, one big therapy session to get out some cathartic frustration and longing.
Your voice makes this video very fun, thanks
I missed how cozy the maps were. Hanging out by the beach in Zanzibar and all. Now everything has to be in the middle of a battlefield or lore consistent with no mystery. The Headlong gate, Sandtrap mystery, why are there turrets in Snowbound? Stuff like that
This channel name makes me miss the super bounce videos back in the day
Same honestly
I wish we didn't have to have a thematic event with a scripted story and new modes just to add a new goddamn map in a way that "makes sense"
I want more behemoth that just drops you in a sandbox looking forerunner environment and just lets you go, aside from the spawn pads, weapon racks, Spartan callouts that don't make any goddamn sense in modes like SWAT (why is "popped their shields" coded to trigger EVERY TIME you do health damage on an enemy instead of when you pop their shields?)
This is a really well put together script!
6:37 Funniest thing is they've added a bunch of cosmetics and armors that don't fit Halo at all.
This is what happens when you employ people who HATE a franchise to continue making games in said franchise.
I agree, hiring the Forerunners was a large mistake on the parts of 343.
What in the deep fried fuck is this filter my guy?
Good video 10/10
As someone who got recommended this but basically has only played halo for all of 3 minutes. I miss the fantasy maps of kid icarus uprising. They were small but unique and barely concerned themselves with canon. One match you’re on a floating Sci-fi disk, the next match you’re fighting in a volcano, then the next you’re in a crystal cave, the next you’re on some compound in space. Good times. :3
Hope your channel grows solid vid 👍
Thank you for this video.
It really didn't feel the same after reach.
One of my issues with 343 summed up at 6:54. The whole everything is lore is ridiculous and actually hurts immersion rather than improving it. Not everything in real life is engineered perfectly in a space to make it look the most practical optimized version it can be anyway so as long as you have some of the flavor, you can have some of the nonsensical design. Your maps aren't going to be scrutinized at a cinema sins level by the community. Focus should be on art, fun, and balance. Not realism. I haven't touched Infinite since launch week or so. Forge has been its greatest strength and kept me somewhat interested from a distance. Core gameplay and the maps are both lacking for me, I just prefer Halo 2 and Halo 3 without sprint and I think Halo 5 was the best of the advanced movement games in terms of going all the way with that concept.
Why do you not have more subscribers - this video was gold.
Just found this video in my recommendations. It was excellent. I subbed.
Made me laugh multible times. Very creative video. I appreciate your work!
Based on Bungie and 343 interviews, my wild guess is because 343 prioritized competitiveness over fun
I love the Pelicans dropping respawned vehicles. It lets everyone know when and where they’ll drop, and it looks friggin sick
I ironically was okay with Halo 5 combat changes but the maps took a huge nosedive in terms of creativity and Unique, even its forge maps looked bland in comparison to reach. The soul in map design nowadays it feels like it was made for other fpses.
I remember so many halo 2 maps by name, i can only name plaza in halo 5. I feel like that map was the most halo in 5
I agree 100% and its the same reason I lile Valorants maps so much. They just exist in these impossible scenarios floating in the sky or on the ocean floor. Bring back fun maps. Bring back fun games.
Interesting take, I agree, the lack of explicit explanation for most H1-H3 maps allowed your imagination to run wild. The abstract maps were some of my favorites, but I also miss the maps based on Rule of Cool too. I don't want to be fed a justification for the things I'm doing, I'm playing a videogame lol
cant agree enough with the point about trying to make everything into the cannon
This the kinda shit we miss since we LIVE IN A SOCIETY
What is crazy, given this new focus on making the multiplayer maps behave in a certain way we would not have gotten some of the most iconic maps. Zanzibar and lockout would not fit this paradigm of we have to make both bases exactly the same and everything the same looking arena. The maps are smaller so you almost never go more than 10 seconds without running into an enemy so it becomes quick twitch muscles and landing shotd, but the plotting is just as important. Like in design the blank space is just as important.
I point of view before watching is they use to be made for fun but now they’re made for the competitive community like esports
343 and every other franchise killers: "You may think that is what you want but that's not really what you want."
Well, you said it, everything has to be clean and symmetrical for the pros
Awesome points man you deserve way more subs
Don't know how you only have 700 subscribers, but this video was very well made, I really hope to see more of them just like it! 😃
That 10 second intro made me emotional.
I did not expect this level of quality from someone with 343 subscribers
I mean it makes sense though. Militaries always have mil sims. And the idea that your Spartan is in the lore duking it out with other players is super cool.
The thing that some of the best maps have is one big thing. Like a giant spinning wheel or spire. They think so micro with every little thing in their maps now
I agree completely. 343 sacrificed fun on the altar of competitive gameplay. Not everything needs to be grounded and canon lore. It’s okay to just go crazy and have fun with these ridiculous maps like a random forerunner structure
in the trees (Guardian) or a floating flood containment base in an icy region of the world (Lockout). Just have fun with it, dammit! They were so close but still missed the mark
Nothing about "grounded in canon lore" has anything to do with competitve. Competitive players only care about readability. Not theme.
@@Wylie288 that’s my point- there’s nothing fun about the new maps because 343 only focuses on making competitive play based maps while overlooking more environment with lore based maps
I have a huge amount of nostalgia for the original Halo maps. I also think most are objectively good, but the new maps in Halo Infinite are mostly great too. Had they come out first everyone would love them.
Awesome stuff man. Keep it up! 👍