You started off as 3 in sequence. Then 2, BUT you never reported that you had the Lear in sight until he was too close, that's why controller gave you a plan B. He did right to maintain spacing and safety. Kinda sucks the space was so busy that day but it happens. I'm sure the Lear was grateful ;)
Yea you were cleared #2 following the Cirrus and just prior to that he had told the Lear to keep speed at 170 on 15 mile final following Baron 5 miles out, no factor... Next thing we hear is him asking you if you have the Lear in sight on 5 mile final, so yea something got mixed up there with his spacing plan. But overall I thought it was no big deal, literally cost you a few minutes tops. Just about everywhere small props are asked to make way for faster jets when things get tight around the airport, assume it is a bigger deal for a Lear to make a go around at that airport with that terrain than for you to make a 360 on final. Also in my experience the plane on the side taxiway usually yields to the one already taxing on a main taxiway. I do not think your socioeconomic class had anything to do with either event. Also let’s remember to the outside observer on UA-cam your life would appear to consist solely of flying to cool places and eating, most would consider that a rather privileged class too. Anyway thanks for the vid keep em coming.
It definitely was NOT "total chaos", but just a short term change of plan by ATC and he probably did not issue the information efficiently. Cost you what, 3 minutes? Still, thanks for the nice video, looking forward to the next one.
Its interesting when you have wider conversations with ATC, I realise that everyone needs to stay professional but those titbits that show everyone is human are little gems, especially the tour.
So basically you and the mighty Bonanza caught him off guard making that 5 mile point for base so fast. (Hence him telling the Lear to speed up!) He should have extended you further on the downwind ensuring you didn't turn base until you were adequately separated BEHIND the Lear as he originally instructed with placing you as number 3 in sequence. This could have all been avoided if he simply told the Cirrus and Lear to speed up and the mighty Bonanza to slow down 😄
I need to listen to more air traffic controllers if I am ever going to land at Jackson. Busy airspace sounds sketchy if you're in an experimental LSA that might do 120 kts, 55 to 60 kt on a stabilized approach.
19:47 without seeing a radar display or knowing exactly where the Lear and the Bonanza were in relation to one another my first instict was to give the LR slowest practical speed to follow a BE entering right base from the SE.
Lear jet's approach speed is approx 140 mph as opposed to the Bonanza''s 80 MPH. No brainer to give way to the Lear. Did you notice his inbound mileages getting drastically smaller as a clue? Glad to see you're still alive to gripe about having to wait on a lear.
@@socomon69 Agreed, there was a sudden switcheroo there on the part of the controller, but I believe it was because the controller realized that the jet was coming in so fast that made him change his mind. I listened to the mileage of the jet as he came in. His numbers were closing in on the airport really fast and probably might've had to do a go-around by the time the Bonanza cleared the runway. Regardless, glad all are safe.
@@sacuW9ep same reason. Traffic screen is only useful if you’re just curious about heading/speed or closure rate or callsign or other fun tidbit. For anything practical the map view gives you way more information about where they are and where they’re going.
I’ve been watching your air adventures for quite sometime now Matt, and I am really curious about your eating habits. How in the world do you manage to eat so much and still stay below 500#s. Like you, I really love rich foods but no.way could I eat that much without risking serious damage to my digestive system. Anyway keep up the great videos and keep cranking out the fine eating establishments accented by the occasional short flight to the next food stop. Just kidding, I really enjoy your videos, and thanks for sharing. I’m on hospice care and they might Frown on my slipping out to the airport and taking my plane for a $100 hamburger,. (Lol) _¥
"thanks for the tour......." "anytime?" doesn't sound like the ATC I know. But the other Jackson guy changed his mind on sequencing and didn't make a big deal out of it. I think he didn't give yuou the option since it looked like you were too high to make a normal approach and expected you to maneuver to get on glide slope. I do want to give you a mental tune up on performance though. As you have read and heard many times on here I am sure, there is a significant difference between book numbers and what you are going to get with all the detracting factors [compressions, fuel quality, prop condition, changes in density since AWOS, rigging, etc.] , BUT you also have cameras etc hanging off your bird that are not part of the these considerations. Some experienced CFIs and SMEs {bertorellis etc] suggest 12-15% add to the book numbers for such detractors There can be significant penalties on perf for flat plates and other shapes even in the boundary layer. Good that you only do this with long enough runways that still give you more margin. I don't think I would do this for runways with less than 1,500 extra feet at those altitudes. And I'd be meticulous about progress on the runway; speed by midfield, remaining by 70 kts, etc so you still have enough room to abort if she aint behaving. Just a thought.
Best controller ever. He catered to the rich and told you poor, uncultured swine to get out of the way of those people who paid way too much money to be here! It's the American Dream in action, boys! Murica! -_-
I used to fly in a glider club at an airport which seasonally had a lot of private jet traffic. Of course we occasionally would have to cut them out on their final approach ( gliders obviously can't go around ). Man they hated our guts. Pretty tasty.
Billionaires have right-away over millionaires, and young up-n-comers gotta do 360's waiting their turn. It's written someplace in the FAR's, I'm sure of it.
It's right there in the 7110.65 too, next to, controllers gotta do what controllers gotta do. (from a get em down in order of fast to slow this just makes sense. But I haven't watched that part of the clip yet. just speaking from 17 yrs ATC experience.
Class D tower controller here (not the one from KJAC lol). I don't know but if I had to make a guess, I would say that this controller was probably training at the time. We shouldn't be too terribly hard on him in terms of getting the spacing and sequencing correct. It's something that is not easy when dealing with a wide mix of aircraft, and you really only get better at it by simply working more and gaining more experience at your specific airport and with the speeds and capabilities of the specific variety of aircraft you deal with there. The thing that troubles me (and what we probably should give him a hard time for) is that he said something that implied that runway separation was somehow your job when it most definitely was his. In theory, the process is simple. You pick out a logical sequence, adjust spacing by extending downwinds or upwinds, and then clear everybody in turn. Sometimes, just due to the inherent limitations of controllers, pilots, and aircraft, that sequence and spacing does not work out, and if you continue to stick with it, it will result in runway separation being broken. So in those instances where your plan won't work and it's too late to change the plan, you simply send the next guy around. Telling you to S-turn and telling the jet to expedite off the runway are acceptable tools to try to make the plan work, but telling you the criteria for maintaining Same Runway Separation for consecutive arrivals is a little odd to me, and I don't understand why any controller would say that over the freq, besides to try to imply that it was the pilot's responsibility.
Agreed on not being too hard on him. My guess was that he’s probably an older retired guy at a contract tower and just got a little confused. We all make mistakes. I would actually disagree with you a bit though - it’s his job to sequence but not to maintain separation under VMC conditions. It takes both the pilot and the controller doing what they need to to get that done efficiently, and frankly I’d rather be 100% responsible for that 100% of the time. I know my airplane and how I can fly it, and in my experience when ATC starts guessing at that kind of thing (maybe because I’m still doing 170 knots trying to keep up with a jet because I know I’m going to have to slow to half of that in a minute - and very rapidly - while he keeps doing 130 to the threshold), it gets much less efficient. If it’s up to me to time it, we’ll cross the threshold as he crosses the hold short line; that never happens when ATC tries to get the timing. So I already knew the separation criteria and am very appreciative of him reminding me so that I don’t end up getting too close and have to go around but also don’t end up any further behind than I have to.
@@mattguthmiller Of course! I'm not trying to say that it isn't the pilots job to fly in a way that results in that runway separation happening. Hell, 90% of the time, it's just "follow this guy, cleared to land #2" and making the right spacing is left entirely up to the pilot. It totally is the pilots job to maintain the proper spacing, and it's no easy task to manage that while still running checklists and configuring the airplane so you're set up for a perfect landing. I've got mad respect for pilots like you who can do that, and do it well, even as the sequence gets switched up on you. I'm only saying that regardless of how well or how poorly a pilot does with establishing/maintaining his or her spacing, the tower controller is definitely responsible for ENSURING runway separation. He doesn't necessarily have to give control instructions ("extend downwind, I'll call your base" for example) to make it happen, but he does have to ENSURE that it's happening. In a different world, if you had followed the jet a little too closely and were going to cross before he was off, he would have had to give you a go-around to maintain that separation that he is responsible for. If he didn't, he'd be at fault for a loss of separation. It's basically the only black and white thing that the tower is responsible for. Separation for 2 airborne VFR aircraft, as I believe you mentioned, is ultimately on the pilots involved, and airborne IFR stuff is the responsibility of the approach or center who works that area, but runway sep, whether it's with VFR aircraft or IFR aircraft, is the towers responsibility at a towered field.
@@harrisweigum6038 Two people who can both achieve the same thing, trying to both take responsibility after the fact. Not criticizing, just observing that it's a healthy attitude. Everyone should be doing what they can to keep everyone safe, whether it's them or someone else.
Lol. Reminds me of the time my boss and his wife flew me and my wife to Martha's Vinyard. At the time he was flying our local airport's rental plane - a rode hard and put up wet Piper Arrow 180. When we landed I was actually marveling at all the fancy little jets parked near the airport buildings and was looking forward to getting a close look at them after we parked. But no. As boss taxied the plane near the fancy planes, the guy on the ground gave a hard, angry shake of his head and gestured us out to the 'back 40' and made us park next to a rusting trailer and a bunch of other 40-50 year old single engine prop planes. Sadly, that noble Arrow 180 was crashed and destroyed by a student pilot a few months later (thankfully, no fatalities). My boss bought 1/4 of Cirrus sr22 after that, which I never got that chance ride in before one of his partners buried the prop in the runway at Lake Placid (also, thankfully no injuries!). I wonder what's next....
My initial thought something was up when the learjet was asked to keep speed up (170) on a 5 mile final and you were on the downwind still. That controller made a mistake, like they often do thinking a jet is going to be worlds faster than a bonanza getting to the runway. At least it wasn't a Cirrus Jet, you would have done 3 360's
Golf Pilot when we are given instructions we need to follow them. The Lear would’ve overtaken him unless he was about to turn base himself. But 170 knots at 5 miles takes almost no time
@@kenclark9888 That's a little bit patronising with the "Bonanza Boy" comment? I mean he has flown that plane around the world setting a record or two on the way! But you are correct about 5 miles disappearing in no time, I would guess at an average of 150Kn, 170, slowing to about 110 to actually land, would take about 2 minutes and the Bonanza doing a rate 1 turn would take about 2 minutes. ATC are always conscious of getting jets in before pistons as they churn up a lot of gas in a hold or go around and they moan about being delayed by the little guys! And their landing fees, here in UK, are a factor of probably 100 times more than ours! I had to wait for about 20 minutes for take off clearance at Biggin Hill once, as there was Bernie Ecclestone's Jet on Final, and some other guy in a Falcon, and he didn't even ask if I wanted to shut down? Since Formula One management moved in. they have been pushing the Lower end of GA out with high landing and parking fees! But what's new in aviation?
yep, rich airport. I've been to Jackson Hole a half dozen times. Watch out for crossing the street - rich housewives will run you over on their way to their multimillion dollar log homes.
There is a significant difference in approach speed between a Lear and a bonanza. Slow behind fast always works. Additionally general aviation pilots have a very wide range of skills and reliability thus making them less reliable at following directions and clearing runways. Clearly the Lear was moving fast on the parallel taxiway. That too was a good call. Suck it up. That is not a cheap bonanza to be flying around in so the poor little guy shtick is a bit comical.
Ya, I'll get a word in edgewise, when I land there in my puny little RV-12. Might grab something to eat at Mc Donalds or a Costco hot dog if they have one in town, and buy some premium Mogas there too, to keep the 100LL crap out of my snowmobile engine.. Jackson, with it's people and new money, puts Aspen to shame, nowadays. :-)
Always wondered what went on in GA cockpits. I’m a retired Navy pilot, flew props and jets off carriers, a former NetJets Sovereign driver and only experience with GA was landing at fields with lots of GA aircraft flying around. I’ll keep my opinion to myself for now, research this a bit. Entertaining video.
@ 20:35 tower told you number three and then soon after cleared you to land behind the Cirrus on short final with the Learjet still on an extended straight in. Yes, he made that mistake, however, personally I would have simply asked for clarification. Except for that error, I thought the plan was a good one.....put you on an extended right downwind for Runway 1 for spacing behind the Learjet. He doesn’t know if you could land short enough to get off the runway in time for the Learjet to land. Suggestion...don’t talk to your passengers when landing. Especially in a relatively complex situation like that. Listen to the radio and every single call to and from the other aircraft. Helps to better understand the big picture.
6 ads in 20 mins and a paid promotion unwatchable now. Before the you tube premium comments start it’s not worth it. I get people need to make money from ad revenue but 6 ads and a paid promotion is a piss take.
He did say before you got on the downwind you were #3 behind a leer jet. Yes i think he could’ve got you in no second thoughts before the leer had he planned it properly and not told him to keep his speed up but to put fault on anyone for being safe rather than sorry is a no from me
Sounded like Matt Was number three. Then he told the cirrus to follow the Learjet. Then told Matt to follow the cirrus and was NOW number 2 because the first airplane landed. Then the cirrus landed and the lear was still on a 5 mile final. Odd...something seemed off. Just remember It’s the AIRPLANE you’re following (especially if you report it in sight) that determines the sequence. Not necessarily the NUMBER because the number changes as planes land. ALWAYS question though if you’re not sure. That Lear 60 has an approach speed of 152 kts at max weight so it’s pretty fast. I lose count (seriously) of how many times I’ll ask to verify if we’re cleared to land.
A36 pilot here. Depending on how much energy you've got, raising the gear when close to the runway can be a bad idea (1:40). There's a momentary but noticeable increase in drag when a Bonanza's gear comes up, and airplanes on the edge of high, hot and heavy have been known to settle back down onto the runway sans rollers. Better to wait a while and let the situation stabilize with the ground well below you. As for Casper, at least it's not Rock Springs.
I’m a retired controller and a life long pilot. I get a little peeved too when I don’t get great service, but I deal with it myself. All in all we get great service on a daily basis and have little to complain about.
This will probably get buried since I'm four weeks late to the party, but there are a couple red flags here that could be useful to learn from. Obviously in this case, the tower controller had a few slip-ups that led to the confusion. But equally, this confusion was preventable by the pilots both in the Learjet and in 7HP. As pilots, we all need to be responsible for maintaining situational awareness, and we always need double check ATC's instructions with our own situational awareness to make sure everything makes sense. Here are a few key moments and my armchair analysis of what I think could have been done differently: 20:36 - Tower sequenced 7HP #3 behind the Learjet. 20:55 - Tower told the Learjet that he'd be following the Bonanza, and that the Bonanza was "close in, no factor for you." This should have raised red flags for the Learjet, since the Bonanza wasn't close in, and wasn't no factor to the Learjet--that was the Cirrus that was landing in front. It should also have raised red flags in 7HP, because just a bit before, tower had sequenced 7HP behind the Learjet and never informed 7HP of the change. 21:04 - Tower said "N7HP, looks like you're inside ZUGEN, number 2 following a VFR cirrus ... rwy 1 cleared to land number 2." ZUGEN is the final approach fix on the RNAV 1 into JAC. 7HP should have confirmed that the transmission was for him, since his mention of ZUGEN should have felt strange. He should also have confirmed the change in sequence from what was issued 30 seconds before. Equally, the pilot of the Learjet (who presumably had the approach plate in front of him) should have known that *he* was just inside ZUGEN and that the transmission was probably intended for him and *not* 7HP. He should have asked about this. He should also have asked about the change in sequence. Maintaining situational awareness even (especially?) at a towered airport is one of those things that I hammer hard into my students. The airport where I teach combines lots of student pilots with tower trainees, which regularly results in some pretty interesting situations that are usually resolved by a quick radio call to confirm. Remember, when in doubt, ask. As shocking as it may be, pilots and controllers are both human. Both groups make mistakes, and both need to be watching out for each others' backs. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I think your diagnosis is spot on. It seems the "root cause" (if there is only one) was the controller confusing the two tails (..7HP and ..74HT are not too dissimilar) for the callout after ZUGEN. I think Matt generally does a good job balancing PIC duties with commentary, but if both aircraft had been practicing sterile cockpit procedures, it's likely one of them would have caught the slip-up as you described.
Exactly right James. I’m an “old guy”...retired ATC who 7 yrs later went to a contract tower. Bottom line however...the SYSTEM only works because both sides are doing their part the make it work.
@@alexandermenzies9954 I'd rather the controller work on too much spacing than too little. Also, we don't know who was in the jet and how demanding they might have been.
@@nothingtoseehere4026 It should also be noted that while it's Class D, there is no radar service in Jackson, the controller cannot actually see where planes are without scanning for them with his eyes.
@@hawkdsl Interesting I had no idea that there was so much Money here in the States.. Thought it might be in Europe or the Oil rich places. Thanks for the insight.
We'll he screwed up no doubt, its on the tape. He even told the lear he'd be following a lear. Earlier he told you, a couple of times, that you'd be following the lear, and then of course clearing you being the Cirrus. My "antennae" wouldve come up and perhaps a queried when he changed it to "behind the cirrus" as it was unexpected. Also when he asked for you to report the lear in sight, that also wouldve been a clue that he was intending you to follow him. He messed up, you didnt do anything wrong, and you couldve made it a heck of alot worse by doing a wide left turn into the lear. A CF no doubt.
As a Jackson native and one of the Ramp Rats at KJAC I can imagine it gets a little chaotic at times. There's no radar service, there's usually a line of jets every five miles all day every day, and the controllers have me yacking in their ear looking for towing clearances. Hey though, at least the airport got rid of landing fees for those of us below 12,500 gross! Now all you have to do is be able to find a spot to park.
LOL. The Lear was asked to do 170 knots, and you wanted to cut in front? Do you have an idea how much fuel burn jets have flying at low altitude, or even taxing on the ground? When I'm flying my piston toy at a non-towered airport I go out of my way to give jet traffic the shortest approach possible (usually long final off the RNAV). When I'm flying my jet, I expect the piston pilots to extend downwind a little if necessary (like you were asked to do) so that I can get in quicker flying the instrument approach rather than circling the pattern (burning $10-20/minute).
Having Burbank as my home base during my time in aviation, stuff like this is very common when you are mixing jet aircraft with light single engine aircraft. There are always last minute changes when your already set-up for landing, as they know in that moment that you cannot get you off the runway fast enough and they could force a go-around in the jet that is eating the seperation. Aircraft are always changing speed on the approach, so things like seperation change rapidly. They are often going to give priority to jet aircraft that would burn hundreds of dollars of fuel in a go-around.
Yes pretty much. A jet will not be happy to have to go around at a mountain airport for no real reason. A Lear would have enough power to not feel that safety was any issue at all, but it'd still be less than desirable. Great video though.
What a cluster! You were definitely cleared 2nd after the Cirrus. I guess you will need to get you a Lear before coming back again. They'll have more respect for you.
Why is it important to indicate it’s a wealthy airport? You didn’t misunderstand, just forgot to confirm call for traffic. ATC was really demanding. But Great job handling curve balls..
I'd probably still land there like you did. But I understand your pleab comment. We were in Jackson exploring the Grand Teton's and Yellowstone in August pulling our RV this summer. It was nice but you definitely know that community caters to the wealthy. Cheers.
Everything is painful when you buy anything from CRapple. Nothing is intuitive or common sense when using an iphone. That's why their called "i"idiots. But outside of that, good flying vids.
Billionaires have right-away over millionaires, and young up-n-comers gotta do 360's waiting their turn. It's written someplace in the FAR's, I'm sure of it.
We’re you number two behind the Cirrus but then ATC wanted to turn you out and bring you back in again behind the Lear by having you execute a 360 so the faster Lear could get by ? ATC didn’t explain thoroughly but that’s a fairly common practice for a slower aircraft in front of a faster one on final. You were correct though. You were number two behind the Cirrus until ATC gave the turnout instruction and you accepted it. Am I reading the situation correctly ?
Okay at about 9:00 in you were talking with Owen. When the camera pulled back you had a bag of Tide Pods in your lap. Trying the Tide Pod Challenge to pass the time??? Yikes!
That JAC local controller was an idiot! He sequenced you number two behind the Cirrus ahead of the Lear, then asked you report the Lear in sight?! He obviously scrambled the sequence in his head. If he wanted to change the sequence fine, but tell you so!!! He acted like he never told you to follow the Cirrus!
not trying to be a dick....is it distracting to a pilot to be communicating, flying, watching for other aircraft while the passenger is swinging a big camera around recording? 20:26 seems like the start of some ATC confusion and wondering is the fact you have the cockpit wired up with cameras like a TV sitcom show added to the confusion?
You started off as 3 in sequence. Then 2, BUT you never reported that you had the Lear in sight until he was too close, that's why controller gave you a plan B. He did right to maintain spacing and safety. Kinda sucks the space was so busy that day but it happens. I'm sure the Lear was grateful ;)
Yea you were cleared #2 following the Cirrus and just prior to that he had told the Lear to keep speed at 170 on 15 mile final following Baron 5 miles out, no factor... Next thing we hear is him asking you if you have the Lear in sight on 5 mile final, so yea something got mixed up there with his spacing plan. But overall I thought it was no big deal, literally cost you a few minutes tops. Just about everywhere small props are asked to make way for faster jets when things get tight around the airport, assume it is a bigger deal for a Lear to make a go around at that airport with that terrain than for you to make a 360 on final. Also in my experience the plane on the side taxiway usually yields to the one already taxing on a main taxiway. I do not think your socioeconomic class had anything to do with either event. Also let’s remember to the outside observer on UA-cam your life would appear to consist solely of flying to cool places and eating, most would consider that a rather privileged class too. Anyway thanks for the vid keep em coming.
Well said!!!!!!!!
It definitely was NOT "total chaos", but just a short term change of plan by ATC and he probably did not issue the information efficiently. Cost you what, 3 minutes?
Still, thanks for the nice video, looking forward to the next one.
My thoughts exactly. I enjoy the vids but this is far from the first time he has shown this kind of attitude.
Matt is a highly skilled and accomplished pilot I've a lot of respect for but Total Chaos?....umm nope
Agree-No need for Click Bait drama titles, we will watch your videos because we enjoy you and the flying content.
Its interesting when you have wider conversations with ATC, I realise that everyone needs to stay professional but those titbits that show everyone is human are little gems, especially the tour.
"Now that we got you out of the way for everybody, can you just leave?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Wish lookie had a youtube channel for the Cub. I wanna watch that footage
9:05
when the only thing you have to eat after a long day of flying is a delicious bag of tide pods
Matt, you need to bring your plane to Ada and have it turbonormalized. Game changer when we did it.
So basically you and the mighty Bonanza caught him off guard making that 5 mile point for base so fast. (Hence him telling the Lear to speed up!) He should have extended you further on the downwind ensuring you didn't turn base until you were adequately separated BEHIND the Lear as he originally instructed with placing you as number 3 in sequence. This could have all been avoided if he simply told the Cirrus and Lear to speed up and the mighty Bonanza to slow down 😄
Should have just landed at driggs. One of the best airport restaurants you’ll ever see. And a grass runway to boot!
It's also way cheaper. I did all my primary flight training at KDIJ, it's a fun little airport.
Lol the top 1% must always go first buddy. Don’t you know that?😂😂 happened to me at Henderson NV
Wow delighted this was not LHR or CDG :) Thank you for sharing.
Love your videos Matt. Very professional and very ‘watchable’. Keep it up.
Nice to see someone flying into one of my favorite places. Sucks about the confusing landing clearance though. Hope you enjoyed the Tetons.
Controller was awesome, cautious doesn’t make him bad and he was extremely courteous.
I need to listen to more air traffic controllers if I am ever going to land at Jackson. Busy airspace sounds sketchy if you're in an experimental LSA that might do 120 kts, 55 to 60 kt on a stabilized approach.
At 11:47, isn't that Colt Richter the pilot from Alaska that died in a plane crash back in 2018?
19:47 without seeing a radar display or knowing exactly where the Lear and the Bonanza were in relation to one another my first instict was to give the LR slowest practical speed to follow a BE entering right base from the SE.
Nathan Samuel Unger yea you can tell he was staring at the screen
Lol, it's never " windy" in aberdeen, that a normal breeze
Wondering what type camera mount out on right wingtip? About to start using a Fat Gecko, just don’t want to lose a camera
So where you going to fly this winter, Matt? Thanks for the great video. C U on the next 1.🛩
Now I know why that plane looked familiar. LOL. I was in Jackson working. Small world
Keep up the great videos.
Lear jet's approach speed is approx 140 mph as opposed to the Bonanza''s 80 MPH. No brainer to give way to the Lear. Did you notice his inbound mileages getting drastically smaller as a clue? Glad to see you're still alive to gripe about having to wait on a lear.
I don't think his gripe had to do with having to wait, it was the lack of clarity and consistency from the controller as to what the plan was.
@@socomon69 Agreed, there was a sudden switcheroo there on the part of the controller, but I believe it was because the controller realized that the jet was coming in so fast that made him change his mind. I listened to the mileage of the jet as he came in. His numbers were closing in on the airport really fast and probably might've had to do a go-around by the time the Bonanza cleared the runway. Regardless, glad all are safe.
Always snacking on Tide pods
Why not keep one of your GTN-750's on Traffic display so you can see targets more readily? I leave mine on Traffic more often than I do Map.
Because then you can see where traffic is relative to other geographic features
@@mattguthmiller Ok, then why have both GTN-750's on Map instead of one of them on Traffic?
@@sacuW9ep same reason. Traffic screen is only useful if you’re just curious about heading/speed or closure rate or callsign or other fun tidbit. For anything practical the map view gives you way more information about where they are and where they’re going.
Honestly... I am trying to follow the controllers instructions putting myself in my shoes... not easy man
Awww.. she sure do love her man..
That was a great 👍 controller.
Still better than sorting it out with a bunch of biz jets and a 737 on UNICOM!
I’ve been watching your air adventures for quite sometime now Matt, and I am really curious about your eating habits. How in the world do you manage to eat so much and still stay below 500#s. Like you, I really love rich foods but no.way could I eat that much without risking serious damage to my digestive system. Anyway keep up the great videos and keep cranking out the fine eating establishments accented by the occasional short flight to the next food stop. Just kidding, I really enjoy your videos, and thanks for sharing. I’m on hospice care and they might Frown on my slipping out to the airport and taking my plane for a $100 hamburger,. (Lol) _¥
Did you have a good enough climb rate to retract the gear?
I'm almost sure you did, but wow, so interesting.
The thing that I wondered about the most was when the controller told you to make a left 360 you turned right. What was that about?
It wouldn’t have been practical to turn left at that point. He clearly thought we were still on downwind.
"thanks for the tour......." "anytime?" doesn't sound like the ATC I know. But the other Jackson guy changed his mind on sequencing and didn't make a big deal out of it. I think he didn't give yuou the option since it looked like you were too high to make a normal approach and expected you to maneuver to get on glide slope. I do want to give you a mental tune up on performance though. As you have read and heard many times on here I am sure, there is a significant difference between book numbers and what you are going to get with all the detracting factors [compressions, fuel quality, prop condition, changes in density since AWOS, rigging, etc.] , BUT you also have cameras etc hanging off your bird that are not part of the these considerations. Some experienced CFIs and SMEs {bertorellis etc] suggest 12-15% add to the book numbers for such detractors There can be significant penalties on perf for flat plates and other shapes even in the boundary layer. Good that you only do this with long enough runways that still give you more margin. I don't think I would do this for runways with less than 1,500 extra feet at those altitudes. And I'd be meticulous about progress on the runway; speed by midfield, remaining by 70 kts, etc so you still have enough room to abort if she aint behaving. Just a thought.
What was your speed going into KJAC for landing???
Are you able to do 150 or so for a landing speed there??
I can't read the panel, but I imagine a bonanza's speed on final is 90-100mph.?
What type of plane is this?
What are those square cameras you have mounted? BMD Micro Cinema?
Why do you fly it at 2500rpm?
Best controller ever. He catered to the rich and told you poor, uncultured swine to get out of the way of those people who paid way too much money to be here! It's the American Dream in action, boys! Murica! -_-
Its probably Kanye West and Kimmie in the Lear jet. Probably checking on their shops!
really nice video. Where is the airport located? please
What cameras are you using in the plane?
Does Matt have a full time job? How the hell does he afford to just fly non stop?
Did u go into hanger 7 there?
This was filmed before the 4th? Need more vids and not so far off
Pinedale WI ? Lol !
Well this is a first... Matt wasn't the one who created the mess.
HAHAHAHAHA
9:41 Nice shirt! ;-)
Awesome controller/tourist guide!
Came here, saw 5 ads embedded in the video, left this comment and left. Another video ruined by ad breaks
Matt: whats thats plane with red tail. ? looks big: ua-cam.com/video/OBxDmfWMiUg/v-deo.html
Hello sir, I would like to know whether it is possible to fly if my eyesight is not very well
Definitely! Many pilots wear glasses including myself. The rules today are very relaxed compared to what they were years ago.
@@scooter39045 Thank you sir. it is good news for me
Pretty Awesome Seeing Our 3+ Parked behind your plane in Jackson Hole. Enjoyed the Video! Safe Travels Matt.
"Hopefully we can get something to eat" While clutching a bag of Tide Pods. Thanks Matt :)
While flying a Bonanza.
He's got his essentials ready. Never know when those pods will come in handy. You could make a Tide pod igloo for shelter in an emergency.
Tower, possible ATC deviation, let me know when you’re ready to copy a number.
Jackson Hole was one of the last trips I made with my 99 year old dad; Brught a tear by my eye seeing, especially the ned of the video. Thank you.
I used to fly in a glider club at an airport which seasonally had a lot of private jet traffic. Of course we occasionally would have to cut them out on their final approach ( gliders obviously can't go around ). Man they hated our guts. Pretty tasty.
Billionaires have right-away over millionaires, and young up-n-comers gotta do 360's waiting their turn. It's written someplace in the FAR's, I'm sure of it.
Traffic is prioritized by speed and capability. Once on final there is no reorder...simply say 'unable' if asked to go around and land.
It's right there in the 7110.65 too, next to, controllers gotta do what controllers gotta do. (from a get em down in order of fast to slow this just makes sense. But I haven't watched that part of the clip yet. just speaking from 17 yrs ATC experience.
Right of way
Class D tower controller here (not the one from KJAC lol). I don't know but if I had to make a guess, I would say that this controller was probably training at the time. We shouldn't be too terribly hard on him in terms of getting the spacing and sequencing correct. It's something that is not easy when dealing with a wide mix of aircraft, and you really only get better at it by simply working more and gaining more experience at your specific airport and with the speeds and capabilities of the specific variety of aircraft you deal with there. The thing that troubles me (and what we probably should give him a hard time for) is that he said something that implied that runway separation was somehow your job when it most definitely was his. In theory, the process is simple. You pick out a logical sequence, adjust spacing by extending downwinds or upwinds, and then clear everybody in turn. Sometimes, just due to the inherent limitations of controllers, pilots, and aircraft, that sequence and spacing does not work out, and if you continue to stick with it, it will result in runway separation being broken. So in those instances where your plan won't work and it's too late to change the plan, you simply send the next guy around. Telling you to S-turn and telling the jet to expedite off the runway are acceptable tools to try to make the plan work, but telling you the criteria for maintaining Same Runway Separation for consecutive arrivals is a little odd to me, and I don't understand why any controller would say that over the freq, besides to try to imply that it was the pilot's responsibility.
Agreed on not being too hard on him. My guess was that he’s probably an older retired guy at a contract tower and just got a little confused. We all make mistakes. I would actually disagree with you a bit though - it’s his job to sequence but not to maintain separation under VMC conditions. It takes both the pilot and the controller doing what they need to to get that done efficiently, and frankly I’d rather be 100% responsible for that 100% of the time. I know my airplane and how I can fly it, and in my experience when ATC starts guessing at that kind of thing (maybe because I’m still doing 170 knots trying to keep up with a jet because I know I’m going to have to slow to half of that in a minute - and very rapidly - while he keeps doing 130 to the threshold), it gets much less efficient. If it’s up to me to time it, we’ll cross the threshold as he crosses the hold short line; that never happens when ATC tries to get the timing. So I already knew the separation criteria and am very appreciative of him reminding me so that I don’t end up getting too close and have to go around but also don’t end up any further behind than I have to.
@@mattguthmiller Of course! I'm not trying to say that it isn't the pilots job to fly in a way that results in that runway separation happening. Hell, 90% of the time, it's just "follow this guy, cleared to land #2" and making the right spacing is left entirely up to the pilot. It totally is the pilots job to maintain the proper spacing, and it's no easy task to manage that while still running checklists and configuring the airplane so you're set up for a perfect landing. I've got mad respect for pilots like you who can do that, and do it well, even as the sequence gets switched up on you. I'm only saying that regardless of how well or how poorly a pilot does with establishing/maintaining his or her spacing, the tower controller is definitely responsible for ENSURING runway separation. He doesn't necessarily have to give control instructions ("extend downwind, I'll call your base" for example) to make it happen, but he does have to ENSURE that it's happening. In a different world, if you had followed the jet a little too closely and were going to cross before he was off, he would have had to give you a go-around to maintain that separation that he is responsible for. If he didn't, he'd be at fault for a loss of separation. It's basically the only black and white thing that the tower is responsible for. Separation for 2 airborne VFR aircraft, as I believe you mentioned, is ultimately on the pilots involved, and airborne IFR stuff is the responsibility of the approach or center who works that area, but runway sep, whether it's with VFR aircraft or IFR aircraft, is the towers responsibility at a towered field.
@@harrisweigum6038 Two people who can both achieve the same thing, trying to both take responsibility after the fact. Not criticizing, just observing that it's a healthy attitude. Everyone should be doing what they can to keep everyone safe, whether it's them or someone else.
@@mattguthmiller are you saying he got confused because he was old?
@@harrisweigum6038 Well said, I Flew in and out of ATL for 20 years and spacing for that airport starts several hundred miles out.
Lol. Reminds me of the time my boss and his wife flew me and my wife to Martha's Vinyard. At the time he was flying our local airport's rental plane - a rode hard and put up wet Piper Arrow 180. When we landed I was actually marveling at all the fancy little jets parked near the airport buildings and was looking forward to getting a close look at them after we parked. But no. As boss taxied the plane near the fancy planes, the guy on the ground gave a hard, angry shake of his head and gestured us out to the 'back 40' and made us park next to a rusting trailer and a bunch of other 40-50 year old single engine prop planes.
Sadly, that noble Arrow 180 was crashed and destroyed by a student pilot a few months later (thankfully, no fatalities). My boss bought 1/4 of Cirrus sr22 after that, which I never got that chance ride in before one of his partners buried the prop in the runway at Lake Placid (also, thankfully no injuries!). I wonder what's next....
My initial thought something was up when the learjet was asked to keep speed up (170) on a 5 mile final and you were on the downwind still. That controller made a mistake, like they often do thinking a jet is going to be worlds faster than a bonanza getting to the runway. At least it wasn't a Cirrus Jet, you would have done 3 360's
😂
Golf Pilot when we are given instructions we need to follow them. The Lear would’ve overtaken him unless he was about to turn base himself. But 170 knots at 5 miles takes almost no time
Great video man, I sensed the controller was kissing ass a little as well because he realized he messed up:)
Tim Fitzgerald other way around listen to it again bonanza boy tried to cut off the Lear.
@@kenclark9888 That's a little bit patronising with the "Bonanza Boy" comment? I mean he has flown that plane around the world setting a record or two on the way! But you are correct about 5 miles disappearing in no time, I would guess at an average of 150Kn, 170, slowing to about 110 to actually land, would take about 2 minutes and the Bonanza doing a rate 1 turn would take about 2 minutes. ATC are always conscious of getting jets in before pistons as they churn up a lot of gas in a hold or go around and they moan about being delayed by the little guys! And their landing fees, here in UK, are a factor of probably 100 times more than ours! I had to wait for about 20 minutes for take off clearance at Biggin Hill once, as there was Bernie Ecclestone's Jet on Final, and some other guy in a Falcon, and he didn't even ask if I wanted to shut down? Since Formula One management moved in. they have been pushing the Lower end of GA out with high landing and parking fees! But what's new in aviation?
I expected a gold runway at Wealthy airport. Disappointed.
They sprayed over it with black paint.. they've been having trouble with people chipping it away for the landing fees.
yep, rich airport. I've been to Jackson Hole a half dozen times. Watch out for crossing the street - rich housewives will run you over on their way to their multimillion dollar log homes.
I like how ATC is also the tour guild, great videos Matt!
There is a significant difference in approach speed between a Lear and a bonanza.
Slow behind fast always works.
Additionally general aviation pilots have a very wide range of skills and reliability thus making them less reliable at following directions and clearing runways.
Clearly the Lear was moving fast on the parallel taxiway. That too was a good call.
Suck it up. That is not a cheap bonanza to be flying around in so the poor little guy shtick is a bit comical.
Ya, I'll get a word in edgewise, when I land there in my puny little RV-12. Might grab something to eat at Mc Donalds or a Costco hot dog if they have one in town, and buy some premium Mogas there too, to keep the 100LL crap out of my snowmobile engine.. Jackson, with it's people and new money, puts Aspen to shame, nowadays. :-)
You're so lucky to have Rachael in your life. She seems great!!!
Love the "your average minivan of the sky" vibe. Keep it up!
Always wondered what went on in GA cockpits. I’m a retired Navy pilot, flew props and jets off carriers, a former NetJets Sovereign driver and only experience with GA was landing at fields with lots of GA aircraft flying around. I’ll keep my opinion to myself for now, research this a bit. Entertaining video.
Casper, Wyoming, Home of the Troopers Drum and Bugle Corps!
You are definitely one of my inspirations for trying to get a pilots license once I get out of college and have a stable income.
Quick, get the Cub around the corner, you're spoiling the look of the apron. Ha ha.
@ 20:35 tower told you number three and then soon after cleared you to land behind the Cirrus on short final with the Learjet still on an extended straight in. Yes, he made that mistake, however, personally I would have simply asked for clarification. Except for that error, I thought the plan was a good one.....put you on an extended right downwind for Runway 1 for spacing behind the Learjet. He doesn’t know if you could land short enough to get off the runway in time for the Learjet to land.
Suggestion...don’t talk to your passengers when landing. Especially in a relatively complex situation like that. Listen to the radio and every single call to and from the other aircraft. Helps to better understand the big picture.
Definitely placed 3rd, and tower called for a LEFT 360 but let him continue a Right 360.
6 ads in 20 mins and a paid promotion unwatchable now. Before the you tube premium comments start it’s not worth it. I get people need to make money from ad revenue but 6 ads and a paid promotion is a piss take.
He did say before you got on the downwind you were #3 behind a leer jet. Yes i think he could’ve got you in no second thoughts before the leer had he planned it properly and not told him to keep his speed up but to put fault on anyone for being safe rather than sorry is a no from me
He did then later clear him as number 2 behind the cirrus at 21.11. Probably a good time to question it!
Sounded like Matt Was number three. Then he told the cirrus to follow the Learjet. Then told Matt to follow the cirrus and was NOW number 2 because the first airplane landed. Then the cirrus landed and the lear was still on a 5 mile final. Odd...something seemed off. Just remember It’s the AIRPLANE you’re following (especially if you report it in sight) that determines the sequence. Not necessarily the NUMBER because the number changes as planes land. ALWAYS question though if you’re not sure. That Lear 60 has an approach speed of 152 kts at max weight so it’s pretty fast. I lose count (seriously) of how many times I’ll ask to verify if we’re cleared to land.
A36 pilot here. Depending on how much energy you've got, raising the gear when close to the runway can be a bad idea (1:40). There's a momentary but noticeable increase in drag when a Bonanza's gear comes up, and airplanes on the edge of high, hot and heavy have been known to settle back down onto the runway sans rollers. Better to wait a while and let the situation stabilize with the ground well below you.
As for Casper, at least it's not Rock Springs.
Definitely important to have plenty of speed before you do it, but hot/heavy/high it’ll take a mile to climb to 50ft with the gear down.
Excellent recommendation but doubt if it will be considered.
I’m a retired controller and a life long pilot. I get a little peeved too when I don’t get great service, but I deal with it myself. All in all we get great service on a daily basis and have little to complain about.
This will probably get buried since I'm four weeks late to the party, but there are a couple red flags here that could be useful to learn from. Obviously in this case, the tower controller had a few slip-ups that led to the confusion. But equally, this confusion was preventable by the pilots both in the Learjet and in 7HP. As pilots, we all need to be responsible for maintaining situational awareness, and we always need double check ATC's instructions with our own situational awareness to make sure everything makes sense.
Here are a few key moments and my armchair analysis of what I think could have been done differently:
20:36 - Tower sequenced 7HP #3 behind the Learjet.
20:55 - Tower told the Learjet that he'd be following the Bonanza, and that the Bonanza was "close in, no factor for you." This should have raised red flags for the Learjet, since the Bonanza wasn't close in, and wasn't no factor to the Learjet--that was the Cirrus that was landing in front. It should also have raised red flags in 7HP, because just a bit before, tower had sequenced 7HP behind the Learjet and never informed 7HP of the change.
21:04 - Tower said "N7HP, looks like you're inside ZUGEN, number 2 following a VFR cirrus ... rwy 1 cleared to land number 2." ZUGEN is the final approach fix on the RNAV 1 into JAC. 7HP should have confirmed that the transmission was for him, since his mention of ZUGEN should have felt strange. He should also have confirmed the change in sequence from what was issued 30 seconds before. Equally, the pilot of the Learjet (who presumably had the approach plate in front of him) should have known that *he* was just inside ZUGEN and that the transmission was probably intended for him and *not* 7HP. He should have asked about this. He should also have asked about the change in sequence.
Maintaining situational awareness even (especially?) at a towered airport is one of those things that I hammer hard into my students. The airport where I teach combines lots of student pilots with tower trainees, which regularly results in some pretty interesting situations that are usually resolved by a quick radio call to confirm. Remember, when in doubt, ask. As shocking as it may be, pilots and controllers are both human. Both groups make mistakes, and both need to be watching out for each others' backs.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I think your diagnosis is spot on. It seems the "root cause" (if there is only one) was the controller confusing the two tails (..7HP and ..74HT are not too dissimilar) for the callout after ZUGEN. I think Matt generally does a good job balancing PIC duties with commentary, but if both aircraft had been practicing sterile cockpit procedures, it's likely one of them would have caught the slip-up as you described.
Exactly right James. I’m an “old guy”...retired ATC who 7 yrs later went to a contract tower. Bottom line however...the SYSTEM only works because both sides are doing their part the make it work.
Sure piles on the "vocal fry" when talking on the radio ;)
Great video Matt! Always look forward to your next video.
Very cool with the tour guide on the radio showing you Mr. Rushmore and Crazy Horse....
Wait, Wyoming is a real place????
/s
Another great video. Let's not be too hard on the controller. 👍
Would just average hard be enough?
@@alexandermenzies9954 I'd rather the controller work on too much spacing than too little. Also, we don't know who was in the jet and how demanding they might have been.
@@nothingtoseehere4026 It should also be noted that while it's Class D, there is no radar service in Jackson, the controller cannot actually see where planes are without scanning for them with his eyes.
A busy day flying!! Keep up the good videos Matt!!
You did not misunderstand. Another Jackson Hole billionaire on a 5 mile final while you’re in the pattern.
I have been forced to go around/go missed because some VFR pilot was in the pattern and refused to extend on downwind to accommodate me..
@@visarma9673 First world problems - all around.
Had no i dea that this was the rich part of town..
@@gewglesux JH and Telluride account for 99% of the world's wealth right now. It's totally insane.
@@hawkdsl Interesting I had no idea that there was so much Money here in the States.. Thought it might be in Europe or the Oil rich places. Thanks for the insight.
You spent more time insisting you were right than it took to make the 360. Relax.
Nice video ! What do you guys do for a living???
We'll he screwed up no doubt, its on the tape. He even told the lear he'd be following a lear. Earlier he told you, a couple of times, that you'd be following the lear, and then of course clearing you being the Cirrus. My "antennae" wouldve come up and perhaps a queried when he changed it to "behind the cirrus" as it was unexpected. Also when he asked for you to report the lear in sight, that also wouldve been a clue that he was intending you to follow him. He messed up, you didnt do anything wrong, and you couldve made it a heck of alot worse by doing a wide left turn into the lear. A CF no doubt.
As a Jackson native and one of the Ramp Rats at KJAC I can imagine it gets a little chaotic at times. There's no radar service, there's usually a line of jets every five miles all day every day, and the controllers have me yacking in their ear looking for towing clearances. Hey though, at least the airport got rid of landing fees for those of us below 12,500 gross! Now all you have to do is be able to find a spot to park.
LOL. The Lear was asked to do 170 knots, and you wanted to cut in front? Do you have an idea how much fuel burn jets have flying at low altitude, or even taxing on the ground? When I'm flying my piston toy at a non-towered airport I go out of my way to give jet traffic the shortest approach possible (usually long final off the RNAV). When I'm flying my jet, I expect the piston pilots to extend downwind a little if necessary (like you were asked to do) so that I can get in quicker flying the instrument approach rather than circling the pattern (burning $10-20/minute).
ATC tour guide is a total bro.
Having Burbank as my home base during my time in aviation, stuff like this is very common when you are mixing jet aircraft with light single engine aircraft. There are always last minute changes when your already set-up for landing, as they know in that moment that you cannot get you off the runway fast enough and they could force a go-around in the jet that is eating the seperation. Aircraft are always changing speed on the approach, so things like seperation change rapidly. They are often going to give priority to jet aircraft that would burn hundreds of dollars of fuel in a go-around.
Yes pretty much. A jet will not be happy to have to go around at a mountain airport for no real reason. A Lear would have enough power to not feel that safety was any issue at all, but it'd still be less than desirable. Great video though.
What a cluster! You were definitely cleared 2nd after the Cirrus. I guess you will need to get you a Lear before coming back again. They'll have more respect for you.
Why is it important to indicate it’s a wealthy airport? You didn’t misunderstand, just forgot to confirm call for traffic. ATC was really demanding. But Great job handling curve balls..
I'd probably still land there like you did. But I understand your pleab comment. We were in Jackson exploring the Grand Teton's and Yellowstone in August pulling our RV this summer. It was nice but you definitely know that community caters to the wealthy. Cheers.
Everything is painful when you buy anything from CRapple. Nothing is intuitive or common sense when using an iphone. That's why their called "i"idiots. But outside of that, good flying vids.
Billionaires have right-away over millionaires, and young up-n-comers gotta do 360's waiting their turn. It's written someplace in the FAR's, I'm sure of it.
In the UK, you have priority while in the circuit. I made two PC12s from Switzerland go-around while i was in my PA28. Smug face.
what a freaking cool controller haha.
We’re you number two behind the Cirrus but then ATC wanted to turn you out and bring you back in again behind the Lear by having you execute a 360 so the faster Lear could get by ?
ATC didn’t explain thoroughly but that’s a fairly common practice for a slower aircraft in front of a faster one on final.
You were correct though. You were number two behind the Cirrus until ATC gave the turnout instruction and you accepted it.
Am I reading the situation correctly ?
Okay at about 9:00 in you were talking with Owen. When the camera pulled back you had a bag of Tide Pods in your lap. Trying the Tide Pod Challenge to pass the time??? Yikes!
That JAC local controller was an idiot! He sequenced you number two behind the Cirrus ahead of the Lear, then asked you report the Lear in sight?! He obviously scrambled the sequence in his head. If he wanted to change the sequence fine, but tell you so!!! He acted like he never told you to follow the Cirrus!
Awesome video Matt. Nicely handled and flown. ❤️
not trying to be a dick....is it distracting to a pilot to be communicating, flying, watching for other aircraft while the passenger is swinging a big camera around recording?
20:26 seems like the start of some ATC confusion and wondering is the fact you have the cockpit wired up with cameras like a TV sitcom show added to the confusion?