My Bible Translation Disagrees in Deuteronomy 32:8! Sons of Israel or sons of God? What is going on?
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- In this exciting episode, join Peter Goeman as he welcomes Mark Ward (@markwardonwords), a gifted NT scholar who works for Faithlife and Logos. They delve deep into the intriguing discrepancies found among key Bible translations regarding Deuteronomy 32:8. Discover the interesting evidence translators consider and the likely interpretation of this text.
Dive into an engaging discussion about the influence of the Septuagint (the Greek Translation of the Old Testament) and the Masoretic Text (the principal Hebrew Text) on modern English translations. Understand how these texts shape our understanding of biblical history and theology.
Moreover, Peter and Mark explore the critical question: How should we integrate the teachings of Deuteronomy 32:8 into our theological framework? This conversation is not just about translation-it's about understanding the essence of biblical teachings.
Episode referenced on Heiser and the Divine Council: • What the Bible Says ab...
For more on Mark Ward:
Mark Ward on UA-cam: @markwardonwords
Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible (www.amazon.com/Authorized-Mis...)
Shepherds Theological Seminary (where Peter Goeman teaches): shepherds.edu/
The Bible Sojourner Audio podcast: anchor.fm/the-bible-sojourner
More About The Bible Sojourner Host, Peter Goeman: petergoeman.com
I think if we are wanting to be diligent in looking at internal and external evidence, I would offer the same be given to Heiser’s work. I haven’t even scratched the surface of all his lectures and discussions about his study from this worldview, but I have spent no less than 150-200 hours the last 8 years hearing out his work. I’m convinced he’s got it right overwhelmingly. I love hearing the discussions that counter his work because I want to hear all the scholarship available. Thank you for this conversation. You’ve gained a new subscriber today!
Appreciate that greatly, my friend! These are great conversations to have and I look forward to your thoughts on future episodes.
Praise God!
Awesome duo! Would like to see another collab.
Appreciate the encouragement! Lord willing we can make that happen sometime.
The last 3-5 minutes of this video answered the question I get all the time when I'm teaching local groups of women - and that is "What difference does it make? What's it matter?" It matters because I want to be faithful to God's Word and the responsibility/opportunity I have to teach. Thank you!
Amen! Having confidence in what God has said is a BIG deal! Thank you for your desire to be faithful when you teach. May many more be like you.
That is a profound reply !! Without conceptual support of context the corresponding action results in the current mess "We the Church" are currently in. Would like to pass along a quote from "Albert Einstein" here. He said;
" We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
"Covenant blessings" to you sister.
Can I be honest? I’m tired of theologians publicly saying don’t agree with Heiser on everything but not offering their criticism publicly. If someone has an issue with something he is teaching please share it (in detail). If you’re just going to express doubt about his teachings without sharing why you could be sowing seeds of doubt and division in people who would otherwise agree with him. It’s interesting to hear people say they don’t agree with all of his conclusions and then admit they haven’t studied all his content! Heiser himself had no problem publicly calling out other teachers he disagreed with, like when he publicly addressed John Walton’s content on angels and demons on his podcast. If your not going to be upfront and public, then please refrain from joining the “I’m not so sure about Heiser” club because apparently, it’s in vogue. If you couldn’t criticize him publicly while he was alive, what makes you think it’s more appropriate now that he is gone? In my opinion, I think it’s probably better to honor him and let people make up their own minds about his content.
I agree with you my friend. But an episode such as this is hardly a place to go into full detail of disagreements (since I actually agree with Heiser here on Deut 32:8). As I mentioned in this episode we have a full episode on the divine council where I talk about my view and how it differs from some of what Heiser has to say. I have never shied away from expressing disagreement (hopefully in a charitable and honorable way). Also, just in case you don't go listen to that other episode, I will add that I had a good relationship with Heiser and he was a dear friend of our school (we actually inherited his library).
@@thebiblesojourner Thanks for your response. I will have to listen to that episode (I'm new to this channel). My post wasn't directed at you personally and I know this video was more about Deut 32 and the translation discussion. I had more in mind Mr. Ward’s comments (and other theologians I respect elsewhere) who have said they disagree but have not communicated publicly to my knowledge regarding what exactly those things are besides general comments about the divine council. Maybe I'm asking too much, but I appreciate you taking the time to express your view and disagreement in full and I plan to check it out. I for one agree with what I have read of his content so far but I'm certainly open to hearing other views. I'm just asking that we do our due diligence to study his work and if we disagree publicly, to share those points of difference publicly (and charitably as mentioned).
@@Th3ologos I appreciate the clarification, my friend. I think as a standard rule we should all try to be specific in disagreement with humbleness and kindness whenever possible. Admittedly, some issues raise our blood pressure a bit! But as Paul says, "And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness." (2 TIm 2:24-25) That's a pretty high standard!
Appreciate your thoughts!
Thanks Peter,
I love the in-depth approach you took, I didn’t understand it all but it’s good to not patronise us listeners 😊
Bless you brother! This was certainly a "in the weeds" kind of conversation, but I hope it minimally gives insight into why certain translations can disagree at times.
Thanks for this excelent conversation. I read Unseen Realm last year and found many of Dr. Heiser's ideas eye opening and interesting and others quite strange. I'll look for that episode in hopes that you deal with his Divine Council idea and with that Lamed Yahweh and Lamed Azazel of Leviticus 16 :D.
Thanks for watching! Sadly I didn't deal with Heiser's view of Leviticus 16. I mainly focused on his paradigm of angelic involvement in the mortal world. I guess I'll have to put the Lev 16 idea on my ever-growing list of episodes =)
@@thebiblesojourner What do you think of Dr. Heiser's position. I have only skimmed his position, but one thing that was apparent to me is that his interpretations are "novel". We do not find very many, if any, people in all of orthodox Christian history who espouse his position.
As for me, I find Heiser interesting, but sometimes his theological perspective can be a little "untethered." I thought he was always skirting the limits of orthodoxy. However, Matt Foreman and Doug Van Dorn (two Reformed Baptists) wrote a book called "Angel of the Lord" which builds on the "divine council worldview" in a way that is more rooted to orthodox Biblical teaching.
@@TurtleTrackin Thanks for that information. I also know of a person who attended the same seminary as me, and am in touch with a former professor who's specialty was Semitic languages/Old Testmant and is a well respected Hebrew scholar. I'm going to float this past him to see what insight he might give me regarding the validity or invalidity of Heiser's arguments from the Hebrew text. Both of these individuals are solidly in the orthodox camp. Both reformed in their theology, but one from the Baptist camp, the other from the Presbyterian camp.
@@TurtleTrackin I think your description as "untethered" is accurate. The blessing (and curse) of Heiser's approach was he was willing to challenge almost everything. That sometimes resulted in some strange views on things. I always tell people I can never agree with EVERYTING Heiser says, but he is always thought provoking :)
This channel really does deserve more views!
You are quite encouraging! I appreciate you and am thankful God can use the material to whatever ends he desires.
Thank you for this video! I have been studying Heisers deut 32 worldview for the past year now and. For me i was not raised in a biblical setting and only started reading and studying scripture the last 8 years. Prior to that i was in drug and alcohol addiction from a child until i was 32, and winessed a lot of "unseen realm" type things. So i think its easier for me to grasp what heiser was laying out for us.
I do have a questio. Though on the scripture addressed. I believe we need to view this in context, and heiser does reference this to the table of nations, and the tower of babel. Is there any way to absolutly prove this, or are all the views of deut 32:8 up to interpretation?
Thank you so much for this video, i really appreciate it!
Thanks for watching and interacting. Yes, I think that Genesis 10 connects with this idea here to a degree. I can't remember every part of Heiser's comments on the connection, but I think there is a generic connection. In fact, the Aramaic Targums make a connection by adding the number 70 to their translation. So strong evidence that people have viewed a connection for many years.
@@thebiblesojourner oh wow that's good to know about the Aramaic translation. Heiser actually tied that into Luke 10 when Jesus sends out the 70 disciples, to reclaim every nation, not just Israel.
Looking forward to more content, thanks for doing this. I believe this is a great time for God and his word and have really been blessed by so many in recent days!
I see the context of Deuteronomy 32 helping clarify what is the best reading. That being as you note, that God has established spiritual beings as administrators over the nations.
Agreed, internal evidence seems to be on the side of angels/sons of God, so coupled with external evidence... seems pretty strong! I would certainly love to hear LSB committee on how they decided on sons of Israel.
thanks . thanks. thanks.
So glad to hear it was helpful!
The really frustrating part of the video is right when Peter is being asked where he would land: ESV or NASB the recording goes all wonky and we can't hear his answer!
BTW: That's right about the 27-minute mark
Yes, so sorry about that! It was the recording software. I hadn’t used it before and it was supposed to be better. But needless to say I won’t be using that again!!! In any case, I approve of the ESV in this case.
I enjoy Matt Ward
He’s a great brother!
It just occurred to me, though I don't know the significance (if there is one) the table of nations was 70, and the number of the sons of Israel and their families who went to Egypt were also 70 (Exodus
1:5).
Since the Deuteronomy 32 passage is a song, it strikes me as interesting how poetically the alternate readings can both work in their own way.
Both the LSB and NASB2020 translate the MS and have a footnote indicating the LXX is Angels of God, and DSS is Sons of God.
Correct. Thank you.
I know plenty of others have raised this point before but where I kind of get stuck is, how do we deal with the fact that the main Bible that people used, for a very long time, didn’t have access to these supposed more accurate translations pre Dead Sea scrolls, etc. Yet they understood the Bible, grew in their faith, led people to Christ, and the Holy Spirit did amazing things! They did this all with an inferior translation that wasn’t accurate?
I’m not arguing but genuinely trying to understand because I’m in the middle of researching translations and I feel like I’m spinning in circles for about a year now
I really appreciate the heart behind a question like this. I think it is a great question. There is a long answer and a short answer to this question. The short answer is that God uses translations to advance His truth (but no translation is perfect). Even in the early church, the primary "Bible" was the Greek (LXX) which had a variety of errors in it. Then for 1000 years it was the Latin Vulgate (which had a variety of errors in it). Then in the English world we used the KJV and then other translations (all of which have errors or inaccuracies in them). The issue is that translations will always be imperfect, but they are necessary to bring God's truth to the people. However, we believe with every fiber of our being that God's Word is without error in the ORIGINAL writings of Greek and Hebrew (yet we don't have one copy or manuscript which perfectly preserves that original). Our goal then is to weed through all the evidence we have available (depending on when and where we live) and fit all the evidence together. The difficulty we currently face has been faced by every generation (even the 2nd century church acknowledged the presence of variants in manuscripts). The Jewish scribes also talked about different readings. So, it has always been a part of living in a fallen world. Hope this helps a little--great question!
@@thebiblesojourner Thank you so much for the response. Great answer and that actually helps me a lot!
@@AndrewHodgeson So glad to hear that!
The interesting thing about this verse is that it is found both ways in the dead sea scrolls. 4Q37 & 4Q45. God does have a sense of humor.
I can’t find it in 4Q45. You sure that’s the right scroll? 🤔
@@thebiblesojourner Dead Sea Scrolls Bible Translations Duet 32
After looking at it closely the words sons of Irael may be italicized and from the English translation text.
@@kricketts4348 Thanks. I was looking at it in the Hebrew and couldn't find it.
~ Exodus 4:22; “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn."
Sons of God and 'sons of Israel' would be referencing the same people.
I am a firm believer in examining the contextual application of the text. What is the context of Deuteronomy 32?
God commissioned Moses to write a song for 'FUTURE' generations ‘when’ Joshua led them into the promised land and divided up the land based on the number of each tribe. So, the song is written so that when it refers back to the time when God divided the land... This was the present time for Moses and Joshua but written for future generations.
~Deuteronomy 31:17&19; “Now then, write this song for yourselves, and teach it to the sons of Israel;
... (for it shall not be forgotten from the mouth of their descendants); ‘He set the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel.’
~ Joshua 17:14-19; Then the sons of Joseph spoke to Joshua, saying, “Why have you given me
only one lot and one portion for an inheritance, since I am a numerous people whom the LORD has
thus far blessed?” Joshua said to them, “If you are a numerous people, go up to the forest and clear a
place for yourself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the Rephaim, since the hill country of
Ephraim is too narrow for you.” The sons of Joseph said, “The hill country is not enough for us, and
all the Canaanites who live in the valley land have chariots of iron, both those who are in Beth-Shean and its towns and those who are in the valley of Jezreel.” Joshua spoke to the house of Joseph, to Ephraim and Manasseh, saying, “You are a numerous people and have great power; you shall not have one lot only, but the hill country shall be yours.
This song referencing 'angels' and the tower of Babel makes no sense to me.
Best wishes in Christ
Well the point would be emphasizing that Israel alone has a special relationship with God-he is their God. While the nations around them are subjugated to the sons of god. Matches well in talking about Gods special relationship with Israel.
@@thebiblesojourner Yes, "While the nations around them are subjugated to the sons of god" (Israel) by the power of God. God battles for Israel, but I do not see why angels would be relevant in this topic at all.
Having been a friend of Heiser and his work, and knowing about much of the evidence Peter sets forth, I'm firmly with the DSS/ESV reading. Sons of Israel doesn't make good contextual or historical sense in Deut 32.
Thanks for your feedback, my friend. I agree. I think you're right, Deut 32 is better contextually.
When did we stop having faith in God Almighty? When did we stop trusting scripture?
God put it in the minds of man how to build Noah's ark.
God put it in the mind of man how to build the Tabernacle.
God put it in the mind of man how to build the Ark of the Covenant.
And believe it or not, God put it into the mind of man what to put in the Bible. Imagine that.
Amen brother! I guess the issue (in a case like this), is whether God inspired sons of Israel or sons of God. I believe it was the latter, even though some Bible translations disagree. Blessings!
This event in Deut. 32:8,9 happened during the Tower of Babel incident. At that time Israel didn't exist. God had not called Abram yet. Also the sons of God in Job 1 are definitely spiritual beings, Elohim, and not humans.
It's Sons of God. Ben Elohim
Correct, but in plural would be beney Elohim. 👍
Welcome to modern "translation".
Indeed! Bible translation can be a bit tricky not just because of the translation itself, but the texts behind the translation 😮
Geneva bible says "children of Israel. "
Helpful! Thank you.
Doesn’t the fact that as English speakers, you need to read translations of scripture, tell you that what is written, isn’t for you?
No
What is the English language but a combination of multiple languages? Perhaps you could help me to see your point. Even when Scripture was written people to whom Scripture was written knew different languages and read them in translational languages.
You ( Adam) make 0 sense!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 pretty straight forward. The scriptures are not a general philosophical treatment of the circumstances of human existence. They are the story of a message to a particular people in a particular time, and this extends also to the New Testament, which tells of the completion of the work of the Messiah, his resurrection, and his promise to return in judgement over the land of Israel, which all happened by 70AD. What’s in that book isn’t written for us.
@@adamperez8555 We're not the initial audience, but we are part of the faith community that carries on these ancient beliefs and traditions. We must read them in light of their original cultural context and then seek the Spirit's guidance in applying the messages within to our modern context, but we don't need to stick these books in the trash bin just because we're many generations removed from their initial composition.
All gods are man made.
The god invented by the Hebrew tribes living on the Sinai Peninsula is no different from his rivals.
How do you back up that assertion? If all gods are man made, how did man come about? Did we just "poof" out of nowhere? :)
Come on, James : what no response!!!!