This is How You Add Tension in D&D
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- Опубліковано 25 лис 2024
- Ticking clocks are meaningless unless you give the players true Agency.
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I always have a clock running in the world. Not to inhibit the players but to not inhibit the world. Things are in motion in the world regardless of the player's actions.
For sure
I have a calendar of fixed events. Invasion, volcano, death of the king,etc. They might effect some, but not all.
I played in a campaign where our whole goal was to warn, and help evacuate, villages in the path of the Tarrasque. Very little combat, lots of travel, time and resource management, and social encounters out the wazoo. All capped off with us “killing” the Tarrasque. It was a blast!
That sounds awesome
please explaain more
@@bevans4712 Oh yeah. It was a 2e AD&D game. The ticking clock was the pace of the Tarrasque. We had to get ahead of it and stay ahead. We used encumbrance rules, and all the travel rules. Had to plan our trips out. Figure supplies needed. It was the most paperwork I’ve ever done for a campaign, but it was really fun. Different social encounters like convincing a town that they needed to give us supplies so we could continue on to warn people, or one where we talked a local group of bandits into helping with the evacuations. In the end our DM had written a piece describing the Tarrasque destroying the kingdom’s capital after we helped get everyone out. But by then we were like 15th level. And early on our DM had ran us through Tale of the Comet, and he’d forgotten that I still had a bag of holding filled with sci-fi weapons. So we decided to try and stop the Tarrasque. Instead of a true wish spell, the DM described a bunch of different magical characters we’d interacted with showing up and doing a ritual spell to keep it down. It was fun.
I am going to be real, before I started the video I read, "This is how you add Tennis in D&D," looked at who it was by, and clicked it anyway.
Now that I found out the word was "tension" I cannot say that I am disappointed.
Although tennis could be added - might be good exercise for me 😊
I ran a little experimental one shot recently where players found themselves trapped in an otherworldly being’s dimension. It was keeping intelligent races as prisoners inside the pocket dimension to torture as it lived on pain.
Players had 2 hours (12 dungeon turns) to figure out an escape plan before the being returned and permanently trapped them. For every source of the being’s power inside the dungeon they located and stopped, the being would be weaker in combat once it returned. The only way to find those or any other items that might help was to spend that time questioning the various unreliable factions trapped there too or through dungeon crawling.
It went well! I think having such a strong emphasis on spending dungeon turns effectively worked out.
Someone could probably handle a similar scenario on a sinking ship where lower levels become inaccessible as the ship sinks further each turn.
Nice! I like this a lot
I feel like the meat of the video is about giving players meaningful choices. Which I love. I always look to give that to my players. When there was a white dragon my pcs had to fight they asked if they could buy potions of frost resistance. Good idea! I said the shop keeper has 3 potions...uh oh there's 5 of you in the party. Then the players start to crunch numbers and work on strategy to best use their limited potions. Never give the players everything, but always give them something.
I like that
Totally agreed. Go as local as you can for games, we have way too much saving-the-world multiverse quests out there. You have a great idea -- stopping the ticking clock on THIS human sacrifice may only PAUSE such chaotic agendas, and players may have to allow Evil to win for the time being in order to play the long game. Ticking clocks on multiple fronts. This makes choices matter!
For sure!
This is an issue I have with certain media, too. Everything is always high stakes and the fate of the world/universe/all of existence.
It's interesting how so many GM's and players hear "ticking clock" and think of the James Bond bomb countdown or a two hour action movie race as opposed to a scheme or trend which might take weeks or months to unfold. And as you point out, that sort of more "realistic" ticking clock gives the players choices. And choices take your game to that extra level.
For sure - though we should play some jame bond 007
"The world will be overrun with undead..."
"Well, no time to lose!"
"...in six months."
"Wait, how do you know?"
"...uh, trust me, bro."
Haha, yeah a ticking calendar does not sound nearly as ominous, does it. But that is the best kind.@@DM_Curtis
@DM_Curtis The Dead Army will arrive...
...at the new moon!
...at the winter solstice!
...when the comet returns!
...after forced-marching across the great desert!
...when the Heir is born!
...once the Red Sun burns out!
...at the waking of the Terror!
...if the yearly ritual fails!
...to witness the Titanfall!
...after the death of the last oracle!
...once the rivers are dry!
...if the Great Sacrifice is made!
...at the close of the millenium!
...before the next cycle can begin!
...unless the Dragon is awoken!
It isn't any more difficult to think of timings in the 2-10 month range than it is the 2-10 day range. You just have to get used to trying! And shorter timings, just like longer ones, must be explained in-fiction and can be more or less reliable. The drawbacks you imagine are by no means limited to long time frames.
I always plan every adventure with a timeline that assumes no interference by the players. Once set in motion the plot will proceed according to plan until the players do something to disrupt it. This means that every single decision the players make is meaningful, and will affect the outcome of the adventure. Do they sink their teeth into the adventure and pursue its resolution with single-minded devotion? Do they get distracted by side quests? Do they opt not to get involved at all? Every choice they make has consequences, and what makes it fun for the game master is not knowing how events will unfold once the clock is started. Perhaps the players are too late to stop the bad guy (or choose not to intervene at all). In this case the villain's plan succeeds, and that's okay. That creates an interesting development that may impact your entire game world, and create even more interesting future adventures. No adventure ever survives first contact with the players, so its best to roll with it and let things unfold as they will rather than try to force it to a pre-ordained conclusion.
Nice
Deconstructing pre written adventures into rumour and encounter tables is a lot of fun and a really useful learning tool I have found. Simple encounters with bandits or monsters take on added meaning and so can loot too if there are items scattered here or there that reflect people and events going on. Everything going on can suddenly be naturally revealed and you drop the responsibility of steering play the way a pre written adventure or campaign demands. It is also just fun to try and you can do it with your own adventures or themes too.
Great point
Can you like make a small document with an example? I am trying to get into OSR from being a 5e DM. I really want ro run sandbox feeling games.
Speaking of the Avengers problem, the anime Samurai Flamenco did well after having some kind of cosmic threat by having the final arc have a villain that was just one creepy guy stalking the hero.
Interesting, I’ll have to check that out
This is one of my favorite videos you've done, Dan. I shared it with my group as part of a larger discussion about how some mechanics are fun and other mechanics are "good for you."
A good way to introduce a group new to this kind of decision-making is with an advisor NPC or DMPC that will lay out a set of reasonable options and explicitly discuss the pros and cons. You can then place the party in situations increasingly outside the expertise of this NPC, forcing the players to be the ones suggesting options. Eventually you can retire them completely.
But you can also groom that NPC to take on different roles as the party grows. So long as you let the party make the final decisions and you limit the direct action of this NPC to perhaps fulfilling a delegated task here or there, this will also provides a person they've authentically come to care about and respect.
If you're following OS orthodoxy where the PCs are only adventuring so long as it takes to build their strongholds and kingdoms and then basically play Chainmail, that person can become a trusted commander or hero unit and/or provide troops to the budding regents. Such people also make great plot hooks for kidnapping, murder, mind control, replacement with a doppelganger, impregnation with an alien baby...
Indeed, NPCs the players care about and trust are great
Also a key aspect of choices & meaning often reiterated; but make sure to telegraph consequences. Is there a fork in the road if PCs don't notice it?
Indeed
I always have one or two ticking clocks going. How much the players know about what is ticking is up to them digging around (rumors, lore/history, capturing prisoners, parley). If they are passive the world may change in ways that they don't like. Of course, it is possible a "good" faction may stop advancing evil without their help. Rewards disappear, some adventuring opportunities dry up. Time to find a new troubled territory!
Nice!
The best option I find is to have three options for the players to choose when it comes to travel to a “main event”.
Take the straight path to the destination. They get there in plenty of time with most of their starting resources available. I shoot for they party achieving a 60-70% success at the “main event” for this path.
The path with a detour to the Lesser MacGuffin. They should still arrive on time, but have spent some time and resources to acquire something that will help them succeed during the “main event”. This path should have about a 25% failure rate where resources are spent but the Lesser MacGuffin is not acquired. I shoot for 70-80% success with the MacGuffin, 50-60% without (due to resource depletion).
The path with a detour to the Greater MacGuffin. Like the path to the Lesser MacGuffin, but more expensive resource wise, a small chance of running out of time if they aren’t efficient and a 50% failure rate to acquire the MacGuffin. I shoot for a 80-90% chance of success with the MacGuffin, 40-50% without (due to resource depletion).
They never have enough time before the “main event” to acquire both MacGuffins unless they split the party, but then the chance of acquiring either of the MacGuffins drops dramatically.
This gives the players the choice of how much peril/tension they are interested in signing up for. Worst case scenario they’re still successful 40% of the time (obviously the chance of success are best guesses). This also assumes they make good choices on which resources to bring with them in the first place.
Ask them which path they’re going to take. Fully prep it and leave the other ideas in your back pocket for future use.
That sounds interesting, I never know what percentage the PCs have to do anything so I’m not sure I could incorporate this as written, but having options is always great
@@BanditsKeep Oh the percentages are best guesses based on past experience in general and if I have any, with the particular group. I regularly mess it up and don't lose sleep over it, but those are the rough goals I'm shooting for.
I put out a clock telling them how much time has passed regardless of whether I am counting down to something.
Nice
I normally use clocks in relation to specific plots, for example if the PCs hear rumours of an orc warlord gathering a force of warriors to attack a town, then the clock ticks slowly towards completion even if the PCs aren't involved. When the clock is complete the evenrs comes to pass, ofc PCs can get involved should they wish and change things 👍
Makes sense
@@BanditsKeep : IIRC I use a mixture of Fronts from Dungeon World & clocks from Blades in the Dark 🤔
The clock is always ticking and here's a couple of examples that have nothing to do with the End of the World or the adventures in general.
We had a Warlock (mage) who wanted to make some magic items. Well that takes research and time and so that character is out of the game while he does that. So other party members would take time doing other things like training or whatever while the Warlock was making his magic items. Now this same Warlock would also complain when we used downtime because he, being human, was aging while our Elf and Dwarf characters were taking years off to do things that were important to them but not to him. Yes, humans have short lifespans so it is important for them to use their time wisely.
In another high level campaign, we were Lords of realms and had to raise funds to support our troops and build our little kingdoms. Contrary to popular belief, not all high level characters are rich. So we had a plan to seek out 2 Dragon lairs that we had heard rumors about. But the clock is ticking and we only have so much time to find their lairs, slay them and transport the treasure (if they have any) back to our kingdoms before we run out of money. No time to sit and wait for weeks hoping to see the Dragon out flying around. We had to figure out where they were, quickly, so our kingdoms didn't go broke.
Time is a fickle thing.
Cool
Excellent point. All movies and most novels are on the clock, as of course is real life. "Quickly! There's no time!" Put them under the gun, especially once they've initiated something. Decisions get a lot easier all of sudden. And future decisions will be made with an eye on being careful what you get involved with, and it will feel like the world is real beyond the pc's. Consequences! (On a side note, I wasn't looking when you mentioned the sponsor, so I thought you said "seppuku" which I thought was weird.)
Could be my bad pronunciation
Having another player run the bad guys in a sand box is something I want to try.
Given them objectives and finite resources and they should hopefully create an organic ticking clock but they themselves need time to carry out their plans, and their actions can filter back to the players as rumour.
The EHP sending envoys out but the Red Orcs of the Iron hills rebuffed them (bad guys need to make reaction rolls too) etc etc as they gather allies, attack PC friendly villages, carry out rituals during new moons etc
That could be super fun for sure
It's funny you say (paraphrase) "I can't train because I have a ticking clock" - I had the opposite problem. In my sandbox campaign, I didn't bother to keep track of time, so the players basically had infinite time to train, research, craft, etc. thereby removing the limitations on those. I had to find other ways to limit them.
Interesting
i haven't expressed it as a ticking clock, but it's certainly a campaign where unresolved problems are going to progress, not remain static. so when there's multiple things happening at once, the players decide what is urgent and what is not.
For sure
Good information. I appreciate videos like this. I have a ticking clock or two in my campaign but sometimes it's hard to make them meaningful in linear campaigns like hours. Also, I just have a couple of players who do a very poor job of taking the initiative and they just need to be pushed along. A lot of times. They don't even consider anything like downtime or training
Is there any downside to them not training or taking downtime?
@@BanditsKeep eh not really except my own enjoyment. I enjoy crunch and putting tasks under a microscope. I have to force downtime generally and tie in story elements. For example,
Heroes save town, get invited to a spring ball by the royal family. You are going before royalty, what are you going to wear? It's customary to brink a token as a gift, what are you bringing? Let's do some shopping and role play etc. While doing so they learn some background about their pet NPC. Research is basically non existent, they kind of figure it out as they go as in I tell them what they are supposed to do next because they can't think for themselves lol. There's no need to take time to memorize spells because anything they need to do can generally be handwaved to "you studied your spell book in the three days you've spent resting since you arrived home from your last adventure."
I mean if I was doing it well I probably wouldn't be watching this video lol.
Basically in reality none of it is really necessary per se. It's just logical, makes sense, and would be nice lol I think that's why things like tracking ammunition and incumbrance get hand waived too because you don't really need to keep track of it. Even though I want to have those things in my game, 5e does not really allow for those things to be important in any meaningful way. Not in a way that's fun for an "ordinary" game anyway.
I completely agree. I use ticking clocks while giving the players a variety of suggestions on paths to take, even if the paths lead in an alternate direction from whomever the big bad turns out to be. It's been fun watching the players debate over saving lives, pursuing intel or uniting the survivors of a cursed city in my current campaign. They've done some good, gained some ground but also hit some dead ends all while the villains advance on unknown goals.
Awesome
I've never really had a ticking clock on a large scale. I set up the world and the players will interact with it as they will. I may use a ticking clock on a small scale - the volcano is rumbling and it's getting worse as the session goes on. I also have no problem with railroading. The players choose to get on the train and it only goes to one place. However, they can jump off whenever they want, and events will go on without them.
Indeed
Wow, great video! I will definitely be using this advice going forward.
Thanks!
Great video! Your advice starting at 10:44 nails it for my sandbox campaign that is getting off the ground right now. I'm currently fleshing out the key NPCs and factions. One of the main BBEGs (maybe the main) - is a lich. It's really easy to fall into that trap of visualizing, anticipating, and then planning for a final showdown with that lich.
This is my first time DMing for a long sandbox campaign. It must be nerve wracking for DM to play through a multi-year campaign, reach a showdown with a BBEG (if it happens), and then know that player decisions or the dice may result in failure for the players. Nerves of steel will be required to not fudge dice or nerf NPC actions after that investment from the group.
Typically I’ve found players find a way to come out on top
I usually let players level up only if they spend downtime equal to their next level times number of weeks. I enjoy seeing the players debate whether they should rush a dungeon and hopefully survive with all the spoils or if they should hang back to get stronger but risk somebody stealing their loot.
Nice
Thanks for another worthwhile video Daniel.
Thanks for watching
I still can't get over brushing over Travel. I find it extremely pertinent. I mean LOTR is basically all about Travel.
For sure travel can be a major part of the game
Heh, I misread the title as "This is how you ad Tennison (As in Lord Tennison) to D&D". 😊
😂 seems there have been many a misread - I shall avoid that word in titles lol
Short times sounds like a symptom of never thinking past the next few sessions and preparing an actual campaign arc. It's always players are back in a town and find out about some all thing that needs to be stopped *right now*. No time to waste! Saddle up and get on the trail (which conveniently leads right to the BBEG and everything needed to win).
Indeed
So far, I've acknowledged the passage of time, but haven't put pressure on it being limited, yet.
Cool
Great video!
Thanks!
Engagement!
Yes
Commenting to please the algorithm gods
Much appreciated
How about doing a video on large scale tactical level regional level combat bwtween armies ir larger units.
Bonus points for doing on naval combat with an admiral controlling an entire fleet vs another fleet.
There are channels that focus on war games that could likely do that better than I could. But it sounds fun to try
Travel, encumbrance, restons.... That's ONLY relevant if time is a factor. With unlimited time it does not matter how long the journey takes, can you spend time to hunt, can you afford to go back for the item you did not bring but might be helpful. Those decisions make it fun. If there is no timer there is no different between "can go back three times" and "can have everything on them" and you just as well might skip it. It's not interesting. But the timer makes it relevant!
Indeed
But always threat to the world is no different than always a more local threat 🤔
Really? That would imply many many super powerful foes - if that’s your world cool
It’s hard making choices in real life and you’re making them make hard choices in your game world!!! Lol 😂. Can’t you make it easy!?!
Nope 😊
Sandbox and linear adventures are not a dichotomy, I usually run non-linear games since I despise both. And from how you talk about meaningful decisions, I would argue that it is not truly a sandbox what you do there either, since you seem to have clear points associated with travel times and and overall threat that has to be dealt with. Anyway, I like to have the fiction created in the game to be rather personal, to avoid the rational resource calculation, but leads to an expression of values and virtues. And even if I make it not personal, I still would go for a dilemma, like the example of the ancient deity you mentioned, I would turn that on its head and have a cult sacrificing children to keep the deity in torpor, which would then mean the players would have to decide between two evils, stop the child sacrifice cult but make the ancient deity eventually awake because it gets hungry for blood. That is tension, all your math games and micromanagement would just bore me.
So you're saying resource management isn't "management" and boring? Your post is very counterintuitive 🤔 perhaps it's a language barrier, being that the grammar is poor?
@@sgtbigballs666 Nah, I was just not really focused, so blame my ADHD. But I edited my post, since you are right it was somewhat confusing and one could get the wrong impression.
Math and micromanagement? I think you are misunderstanding what I am talking about. As far as a “no win” situation like you are presenting, that’s not my style, but I’m sure it can be fun for some groups.
@@Drudenfusz all good, just trying to understand the perspective, always looking for something different in the world of being a DM haha
@@BanditsKeep I've run with my fair share of no-win DM's, it can be fun...when you win hahaha
Someone a long time ago made a needlepoint, "DM sucks, DM unfair", it hangs in every game we play 🤔 our games are not for the faint hearted