@@BanditsKeep When I really take my time with a dungeon or a encounter area, like a wilderness area--I roll my wandering encounters ahead of time so on game day, I know what is behind each and every door, what's happening along the road, what direction the encounter is coming from, and why it's there. It can be as simple as merchants traveling from one city to another, or that orc lair the party is raiding have stumbled into tunnels left behind by purple worms. I'll write the wandering encounter on a note card so I have all the fighting stats I need, and role play information if the party wants to parley. I try to have as much of that done in advance as possible--- That's not to say you're get to avoid DMing on the fly, because your players will always make certain nothing goes to plan.
Yeah. I also dig how the Black Sword Hack applies this to different situations and turn lengths such as a couple of hours increments in doing suff in a town. Every character can take their turn including a move and an action such as going to a tavern and trying to find information. As a player I tend to be super active and a bit impatient so others can be overshadowed. Also I'm wondering about using the role of the announcer or the player who gathers everyone's actions and tells the DM.
I partially agree, but I’ve done it with my party as a test and they REALLY didn’t like it. Some players just keep following the one who was in front of them. Others just couldn’t get to cross a room for example. I wouldn’t recommend it depending on the type of players that really like to explore and role play during exploration since they may feel constrained.
Some of my best nights playing D&D involved nothing more than me and a buddy crawling a procedural dungeon, metal records playing in the background, and knocking back beers, Love this style of gaming.
I tried running DCC and The Black Hack and had the feeling that there were expectations of how to run dungeons that weren't explained. When I bought OSE the procedures were a huge eye opener and I imported them into those games. Really helpful video, thanks.
Understanding and using procedures is one of the things that made me fall in love with older versions and is something missing from a lot of more modern games. It really alleviates a lot of the work and planning needed on the part of the DM. And it's fun to come up with personal additions and procedures.
Just want to say thank you! I have been trying to wrap my head around HOW to run an effective dungeon crawl for my DND game and this honestly was the missing link!
Since i've been watching your videos, I am struck by how much of these things I was doing without feeling the need to name them or even really thinking about it. Thank you for putting the effort into this and helping to teach an entirely new gneration how to be a DM/GM. Oh, and teaching an old dog how to teach. I think that is important as well.
There’s something to your consistency in using B/X as your primary reference that’s very nice for consistency and understanding (As a new DM). Especially since you give a feel for context and understanding mechanics instead of just putting a bunch of eclectic rules out there.
I've adopted a procedural approach in the 80s and never looked back. Largely, I had to accommodate LARGE pick-up groups but it also translated well to the superhero genre and diceless Amber game where parties were fully capable of separating mid-battle and break off into isolated concurrent activities. By polling the table, you can create a mental checklist of what's going on at any given time and script the next sequence and the consequences of those activities. It's really the only way to keep order.
@@jaybakata5566 Encounter distance rolls and a reaction roll made it a lot more friendly in my game. Now each wandering encounter is a possible friend.
I almost forgot about turn procedure in dungeons. Started OD&D in 1984 with it. Started it recently with 3.5e rules in wildernis adventures on an hour base, but I consider it for dungeons, too. Lots of good but forgotten ideas are returning lately. Love it.
Procedural play is something I've been doing more of in recent years. I love the sense of discovering what happens along with the players and being as surprised as they are. Also, keeping session notes turn by turn in the dungeon kind of has a simulationist vibe. I don't know, but it makes the game fresh and interesting again. Switching up your style of play helps keep ya playing. Great topic, great video!
There is Wisdom in old school rules! Oh the horror! I haven’t moved to utilizing turns outside of combat as regularly as you suggest, so I’ll have to switch that up. I think your insistence on adhering to the procedure is encouraging for me. Adventurer Conqueror King System adds a “line of sight” and “foreknowledge” table to help adjudicate the effect of monsters hearing you, but not seeing you, or being capable of seeing you (but may still not notice) or neither! That table affects the surprise roll and the escape rolls for encounters. Works well! Thanks for the content sir, I love the channel!
Fantastic video! This sort of procedural exploration stuff is a big part of the reason I started diving into the OSR space, so it's very helpful to see how it's done with actual examples. Thanks!
My favorite procedural references are the gardens of ynn and stygian library, basically d100 random dungeon generator tables, great for quick adventures with little to no prep
Daniel. This has been one of the better explanations of the Dungeon turn that I have seen in years. I personally think modifying the initial initiative sequence for reactions with telegraphing is important and allows a winning party to get an idea of a general attitude. Great video Sir Keep.
Awesome! I love these procedural walk-thrus. Could you please do a video where you do a solo dungeon crawl using the AD&D DM Guide's random dungeon generator?
That seems incredibly unlikely unfortunately. While that is super fun to do it is incredibly boring to watch - I recorded some in the past. That being said if you want to see how I do OD&D dungeon crawls etc check out my other channel “Bandit’s Keep Actual Play”
On initiative: instead of throwing 2 dice, I divide a die in two halves (1-3 monsters/4-6 players) and maybe give a modifier to one side (1-4/5-6) for being naturally more sly (a tiger, for ex). It's faster and have no draws.
Ty Daniel! I just these rules playing a new adventure with my family tonight - worked great. Very good to have a routine. Looking forward to hex crawls! Ty again
Thank you for this video so much. I can't wait for my game on Thursday. The party is in a dwarven citadel ruin, now infested with undead. I will utilize everything you mentioned in this video. I bet it's gonna be hell of a fun. I usually follow the "logical" approach when dealing with dungeon encounters and exploration, but I feel like this approach gives a lot of great opportunities for improv as well. I see a lot of potential for storytelling too. Keep up the good work! I love your channel. PS This is why I love this hobby! I started playing tabletop RPGs 20 years ago, and I still learn stuff and broaden my TTRPG horizons.
In Rolemaster, they call the round/combat part the tactical environment and the turn/travel part, the strategic environment. Always kept that in every system I used.
I haven't used much procedurals over the years. Almost never in dungeons or set pieces, but sometimes I will for wilderness travel. The video does make me think about ways to try and track time more efficiently and I'll experiment with that in the grim game I recently started, since there's a major ticking clock element where the party only has so much time each day to affect change on a town besieged by unnatural horrors. I also like the Missile > Magic > Melee order, but it doesn't fit what I'm currently doing.
Deep dive of B/X. With the same scenario ran with all the different options! This is what I vote for. One of the things that I feel is strange is rolling for wandering monsters every 2 turns seems way to often. I understand it is a 1 in 6 chance (is that rolling a 1 on the d6 or is it rolling a 6 on the d6?) so about 17% chance it happens but I have had it happen 3 times in a row and the players get frustrated. Feeling like every other turn is a combat. Perhaps I am running it wrong/overthinking. Can't wait till you do wilderness. My players hate that I roll for every hex they travel in. Perhaps I am doing that wrong as well. Either way they don't like when I "make things happen" especially in the wilderness. They really just want to be at the dungeon and at town/home with no events in between. It is not always monsters, sometimes it is a merchant traveling, or farmers/citizens etc. But they just want to get to the dungeon and only have battles with non-wandering monsters. Keep up the great video content, and thanks for all your hard work! Also, do you use a caller/mapper? And how do you track what is going on? Do you have a sheet? Or have you done it so long that you just have a default: I make this mark which means 10 minutes passed, I write down what they ran into, collected, killed, etc? I want (need) a detailed example with the map, minis, tracking sheet, etc. I am guessing after 49.5 years this has been distilled into the common denominator aka a best way to follow the procedure by using these tools to make it simple. I get that there is no "one/right" way to do it but I have a feeling there is a way that would make it easier for beginners. After gaining experience, then you have the knowledge to make changes. That is what I am looking for. I want to teach my niece to run games (she wants to learn) but I am all over the place because I have played every edition except OD&D. And we never have the same group for more than 6 months. All my DM's did most things differently, which just causes me more confusion & frustration. Sorry about the text wall. Just wanted to give you an idea of where I am coming from and to let you know I appreciate your videos, knowledge, and teaching of the game.
I usually try to use the concept of “turns” where I say “ok here’s the situation. Player 1, what you doing? Player 2 what are you doing?” Playing out the events of all their actions at the end or one by one depending on what makes sense.
Hey Daniel, im having a hard time wrapping my head around hirelings and retainers, could you explain and expand on it? Especially the beginning, like how to go about generating their stats, how many should be available for the party to hire, maybe even tips for roleplaying that? Im playing with a group thats never used those NPCs and i want to make sure i do a good job of introducing the concept and procedures to them
Thanks for going over this, good job. What makes it confusing is how measurements apparentlybchanged from one edition to the next. By the way, where is the thumbnail from? It's awesome!
🎉 Awesome video. Thank you! I run my game very similar. 2 questions: 1) Do you always track number of fields during a turn? 2) How do you handle movement with minis during combat? Are allies allowed to move through allied or enemys fields ? Do allies block line of sight?
Of course this is system dependent, but in BX 1) I take a marching order and “zoom out” while moving and exploring. 2) Allies can (generally) move through and they do not block line of sight (typically). As BX is a very abstracted combat system. If the party is fighting in a tight space, if many party members are in the way etc these are exceptions.
Your videos are great and always thought provoking but you rolled a one here! You've omitted possibly the most important concept. Yes the turn is ten minutes and yes this is a wargamey abstraction but the key is how far you get to move in those ten minutes. Armour, encumbrance, pursuit,, time in the dungeon, resource usage. Means nothing without distance.
@@mrc8308 yes. I also understand that distance is variable depending on system. Also that encumbrance is an optional rule in some systems, also that some classes and races may have different movement speeds 🤷🏻♂️ I’m not here to detail such things. Feel free to make a video on distance and I will watch though.
I don't make videos. You do. That's a lame parting shot. IIRC ALL rules are optional. I'm talking about the importance of the concept of distance per turn. I'm not sure you do get it.
Could you do a video of open world lair clearing. A fighter must clear a hex of all monster lairs to establish a keep. The numbers of monsters in a lair is massive! How do you play that ?
I would do it as a raid and maybe use mass combat rules. Let me think on it. That being said one of my latest solo plays has a first level party raiding a full orc lair and they do ok for themselves
Thank you so much for this amazing video Daniel. Ive been waiting for you to go over the procedure steps in B/X, well worth the wait. One question: Does it matter if surprise is checked before encounter distance? Thats how its done in OSE and was curious as to why Gavin changed it from where in B/X it goes distance then surprise. Im curious as to what your thoughts are on this.
@BanditsKeep hi Daniel, do you mind elaborating on when you say distance is determined by surprise? Also so I'm clear I'm not talking about wilderness exploration, I'm talking about Dungeon exploration and in OSE its set up to cover both dungeon and wilderness. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around doing surprise first and then distance. I am so used to the B/X way so curious as to how the OSE way affects the outcome. Thank you
This question may seem lame, but this is what I'm actually confused about: In the parts where the party comes down the stairs, and some are listneing while others are guarding the rear, and still two others split off and search the north and south rooms, how is all of THAT broken down into turns? If a party member steps away 60', is that the end of a turn? and then another turn is spent searching, and then finally a third turn is spent for everyone to move back to the closed door? What about once inside the north and south rooms - is their movement within the rooms part of their search, or do they spend 10 minutes to walk 10', then spend 10 minutes to search, another 10 minutes to walk 10'. All of THAT is what is not clear to me. Thanks!
Each character can act during the turn and it all happens at the same time. Any action that requires movement assumes the movement as part of the actions turn.
I hope WotC reintroduces things like this back into D&D 2024. It seems that much of what we used to do has been lost in the 5e transition and the move to narrative play. I use variations of these "old ways" in my current D&D 5e campaign and my players are completely on-board with it. Some of them also DM and, they tell me, it's like scales have fallen from their eyes!
This is the type of thing that is sorely lacking in modern game design. People tend to forget you dont have to stab everything in the dungeon to death and there are other things you can do around too. This just helps break it down into simple language for the average person and im all for it.
I think alot of people would benefit from picking up older editions from Drivethrurpg the ad&d editions give simole rules for all of this same as you said with B/X seems like people dont know how to move in dungeons, wilderness etc... great video for People 😁
what about backtracking? Is there just and endless source of monsters? I feel like the players would get frustrated or bored of farming random monsters in rooms they already cleared
I don't think any additional rolls needed to allow the party (or the monsters) the first action. All action in my games are declared implicitly (without knowing what others will do), and essentially it's rock-paper-scissors. That is, they all go off simultanously regardless of initiative. The initiative result is only used for hit order, and other cases when it may be needed. It often isn't needed though.
I tried to run a more prodcedural crawl for an Underdark section of the game, felt a little less satisfying than I hoped but I think I wasn’t bringing my A game
@@BanditsKeep I kept time and everything, but ultimately I don’t think i sold them on the horror movie dread … i did drop a bunch of giant spiders on them and kill a mule though and split the party in the chaos. Might ask them what they thought… but it didn’t feel good to me.
@@Xplora213 best to survey the players, I’ve run more than one adventure I thought bombed and the players said they had fun. Of course it’s Important we have fun and feel good running too.
When using a 10 foot pole to look and prod for traps, should it be: 1) Finds trap, trap goes off 2) Finds trap, trap needs to be disarmed 3) Finds trap, trap goes off, 10 foot pole is consumed 4) Finds trap, trap goes off, lose 1 foot of the 10 foot pole 5) Finds trap, outcome depends on the trap ?
@@Slit518 😂 I didn’t see the question mark lol - but! All of these things could be the case, probably 2 is the most common for “pit traps”, 3/4 for when you poke inside a hole in the wall etc.
Thanks for the quick reply. I started during 2e D&D, and we would occasionally have a 10 foot pole in a party, but we mainly used them for pole vaulting to other areas. We may have used them to search for traps, I don't remember.
@@BanditsKeep cool. Was just reading what you had on screen and didn’t look like actions were declared. But maybe missing some context. AD&D actions are declared ahead of time as well. I’m particular spell casting.
The rules cyclopedia seems to indicate that you cant move and then melee. Bx seems to say you can. They are both considered compatable, but that is a huge difference. Do you have an opinion on that ?
BX is correct 😊 - the reason I say that is the rules in D&D are based on Chainmail and you can move and attack in Chainmail. Also you can move and melee in AD&D so it seems only BECMI has this ruling of the contemporaries
@@BanditsKeep it is hard to remember dnd is a wargame that allows 1v1 combat, not a 1v1 combat game that allows wargaming. It is tough to change the modern mindset. Thanks!
Sorry to disagree, but I don’t see the point in having a wandering monster pop up on an unexplored empty room, because the party won’t know it was wandering and it misses the point of using such checks to build tension. I think the order of the page you are showing is right: let them move into the room, interact with it and THEN introduce the monster you rolled. But I enjoyed your clear explanation of these procedures.
If that works for you, awesome. I don’t ever differentiate in world what is or is not wandering - with the exception of situations where the party has some intel as to where things should be
5e players may be confused. Old-school D&D based movement on exploring the dungeon. You move 120 feet per 1-minute round while checking for traps & secret doors. Movement in combat is very free: you can move 60 feet & still attack with a melee weapon or 1 arrow (or 2, arrows if you don’t move). This is because most events in old-school dungeons are traps, secret doors, examination of clues, and talking to creatures instead of killing them.
The idea of Turns outside of combat make for a fantastic way of tracking time and keeping the game in equal participation and an orderly manner
I agree
@@BanditsKeep When I really take my time with a dungeon or a encounter area, like a wilderness area--I roll my wandering encounters ahead of time so on game day, I know what is behind each and every door, what's happening along the road, what direction the encounter is coming from, and why it's there. It can be as simple as merchants traveling from one city to another, or that orc lair the party is raiding have stumbled into tunnels left behind by purple worms. I'll write the wandering encounter on a note card so I have all the fighting stats I need, and role play information if the party wants to parley. I try to have as much of that done in advance as possible---
That's not to say you're get to avoid DMing on the fly, because your players will always make certain nothing goes to plan.
Yeah. I also dig how the Black Sword Hack applies this to different situations and turn lengths such as a couple of hours increments in doing suff in a town. Every character can take their turn including a move and an action such as going to a tavern and trying to find information.
As a player I tend to be super active and a bit impatient so others can be overshadowed.
Also I'm wondering about using the role of the announcer or the player who gathers everyone's actions and tells the DM.
oldest idea in the world, haha
I partially agree, but I’ve done it with my party as a test and they REALLY didn’t like it. Some players just keep following the one who was in front of them. Others just couldn’t get to cross a room for example. I wouldn’t recommend it depending on the type of players that really like to explore and role play during exploration since they may feel constrained.
Some of my best nights playing D&D involved nothing more than me and a buddy crawling a procedural dungeon, metal records playing in the background, and knocking back beers, Love this style of gaming.
Nice!
Same \m/
I tried running DCC and The Black Hack and had the feeling that there were expectations of how to run dungeons that weren't explained. When I bought OSE the procedures were a huge eye opener and I imported them into those games. Really helpful video, thanks.
I do the same, my mind just drops into these procedures if none exist in a system
Understanding and using procedures is one of the things that made me fall in love with older versions and is something missing from a lot of more modern games. It really alleviates a lot of the work and planning needed on the part of the DM. And it's fun to come up with personal additions and procedures.
I agree
Just want to say thank you! I have been trying to wrap my head around HOW to run an effective dungeon crawl for my DND game and this honestly was the missing link!
Awesome!
Since i've been watching your videos, I am struck by how much of these things I was doing without feeling the need to name them or even really thinking about it. Thank you for putting the effort into this and helping to teach an entirely new gneration how to be a DM/GM. Oh, and teaching an old dog how to teach. I think that is important as well.
I am the same, once you start doing it, it just becomes have it, and you forget that you were actually doing a procedure.
There’s something to your consistency in using B/X as your primary reference that’s very nice for consistency and understanding (As a new DM).
Especially since you give a feel for context and understanding mechanics instead of just putting a bunch of eclectic rules out there.
Thanks! I try to stick with BX for exactly that reason.
I've adopted a procedural approach in the 80s and never looked back. Largely, I had to accommodate LARGE pick-up groups but it also translated well to the superhero genre and diceless Amber game where parties were fully capable of separating mid-battle and break off into isolated concurrent activities.
By polling the table, you can create a mental checklist of what's going on at any given time and script the next sequence and the consequences of those activities. It's really the only way to keep order.
For sure
Extremely helpful. Old school D&D was much more detailed than I remembered. Much better for dungeon crawling and hex crawling.
I agree.
Brilliant, I'm looking forward to the Hexploration one.
Thanks!
Same here. My players hate that I make them explore and roll wandering encounters in the wilderness.
@@jaybakata5566 Encounter distance rolls and a reaction roll made it a lot more friendly in my game. Now each wandering encounter is a possible friend.
I almost forgot about turn procedure in dungeons. Started OD&D in 1984 with it. Started it recently with 3.5e rules in wildernis adventures on an hour base, but I consider it for dungeons, too. Lots of good but forgotten ideas are returning lately. Love it.
For sure!
Procedural play is something I've been doing more of in recent years. I love the sense of discovering what happens along with the players and being as surprised as they are. Also, keeping session notes turn by turn in the dungeon kind of has a simulationist vibe. I don't know, but it makes the game fresh and interesting again. Switching up your style of play helps keep ya playing. Great topic, great video!
Good point, switching up how we play does keep things fresh!
There is Wisdom in old school rules! Oh the horror!
I haven’t moved to utilizing turns outside of combat as regularly as you suggest, so I’ll have to switch that up. I think your insistence on adhering to the procedure is encouraging for me.
Adventurer Conqueror King System adds a “line of sight” and “foreknowledge” table to help adjudicate the effect of monsters hearing you, but not seeing you, or being capable of seeing you (but may still not notice) or neither! That table affects the surprise roll and the escape rolls for encounters. Works well!
Thanks for the content sir, I love the channel!
Thanks!
As mostly a solo player this is very helpful. Takes away a lot of the guesswork
Definitely, procedure is a big part of my solo play
Procedure is very good for party that don't have a lot of initiative... it move the game forward in a steady way
..
I love it
For sure
This is a excellent demonstration of this, because I had trouble explaining in game to some new players
Thank You!
Fantastic video! This sort of procedural exploration stuff is a big part of the reason I started diving into the OSR space, so it's very helpful to see how it's done with actual examples. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
It took a few sessions to familiarize my group to OSE. But once they got the hang of it, they appreciate how it speeds up combat. Great video
For sure
My favorite procedural references are the gardens of ynn and stygian library, basically d100 random dungeon generator tables, great for quick adventures with little to no prep
Both are very good, I agree
Daniel. This has been one of the better explanations of the Dungeon turn that I have seen in years. I personally think modifying the initial initiative sequence for reactions with telegraphing is important and allows a winning party to get an idea of a general attitude. Great video Sir Keep.
For sure, thanks!
recently started doing this in my OSE games and it's helped me feel more confident as a DM.
Excellent
Awesome! I love these procedural walk-thrus. Could you please do a video where you do a solo dungeon crawl using the AD&D DM Guide's random dungeon generator?
That seems incredibly unlikely unfortunately. While that is super fun to do it is incredibly boring to watch - I recorded some in the past. That being said if you want to see how I do OD&D dungeon crawls etc check out my other channel “Bandit’s Keep Actual Play”
Another excellent video Daniel. Thanks for your insight and clarity as always.
Thank You!
Keep it going Dan!
Thanks
On initiative: instead of throwing 2 dice, I divide a die in two halves (1-3 monsters/4-6 players) and maybe give a modifier to one side (1-4/5-6) for being naturally more sly (a tiger, for ex). It's faster and have no draws.
Cool
Ty Daniel! I just these rules playing a new adventure with my family tonight - worked great. Very good to have a routine. Looking forward to hex crawls! Ty again
Awesome
Oh man I’ve been hanging out for videos on this subject! Yay!
Cool!
Because of this more gamey approach i like BX and BECMI a lot more than newer editions. Very good video.
Indeed, I do as well
Thank you for this video so much. I can't wait for my game on Thursday. The party is in a dwarven citadel ruin, now infested with undead. I will utilize everything you mentioned in this video. I bet it's gonna be hell of a fun. I usually follow the "logical" approach when dealing with dungeon encounters and exploration, but I feel like this approach gives a lot of great opportunities for improv as well. I see a lot of potential for storytelling too.
Keep up the good work! I love your channel.
PS This is why I love this hobby! I started playing tabletop RPGs 20 years ago, and I still learn stuff and broaden my TTRPG horizons.
Thank You! Have a great game
In Rolemaster, they call the round/combat part the tactical environment and the turn/travel part, the strategic environment. Always kept that in every system I used.
Cool
Frankly I only know the B/X procedure, that was the only way I played all those years ago. A good delve!
Same, we always used these
This is great! I'm currently trying to blend 5e with OSR in my group
Awesome
Extremely helpful, thank you Daniel!
Thanks!
I haven't used much procedurals over the years. Almost never in dungeons or set pieces, but sometimes I will for wilderness travel. The video does make me think about ways to try and track time more efficiently and I'll experiment with that in the grim game I recently started, since there's a major ticking clock element where the party only has so much time each day to affect change on a town besieged by unnatural horrors. I also like the Missile > Magic > Melee order, but it doesn't fit what I'm currently doing.
Cool
Deep dive of B/X. With the same scenario ran with all the different options! This is what I vote for.
One of the things that I feel is strange is rolling for wandering monsters every 2 turns seems way to often. I understand it is a 1 in 6 chance (is that rolling a 1 on the d6 or is it rolling a 6 on the d6?) so about 17% chance it happens but I have had it happen 3 times in a row and the players get frustrated. Feeling like every other turn is a combat. Perhaps I am running it wrong/overthinking.
Can't wait till you do wilderness. My players hate that I roll for every hex they travel in. Perhaps I am doing that wrong as well. Either way they don't like when I "make things happen" especially in the wilderness. They really just want to be at the dungeon and at town/home with no events in between. It is not always monsters, sometimes it is a merchant traveling, or farmers/citizens etc. But they just want to get to the dungeon and only have battles with non-wandering monsters.
Keep up the great video content, and thanks for all your hard work! Also, do you use a caller/mapper? And how do you track what is going on? Do you have a sheet? Or have you done it so long that you just have a default: I make this mark which means 10 minutes passed, I write down what they ran into, collected, killed, etc? I want (need) a detailed example with the map, minis, tracking sheet, etc. I am guessing after 49.5 years this has been distilled into the common denominator aka a best way to follow the procedure by using these tools to make it simple.
I get that there is no "one/right" way to do it but I have a feeling there is a way that would make it easier for beginners. After gaining experience, then you have the knowledge to make changes. That is what I am looking for. I want to teach my niece to run games (she wants to learn) but I am all over the place because I have played every edition except OD&D. And we never have the same group for more than 6 months. All my DM's did most things differently, which just causes me more confusion & frustration. Sorry about the text wall. Just wanted to give you an idea of where I am coming from and to let you know I appreciate your videos, knowledge, and teaching of the game.
I second vote for a B/X deep dive!!
I usually try to use the concept of “turns” where I say “ok here’s the situation. Player 1, what you doing? Player 2 what are you doing?” Playing out the events of all their actions at the end or one by one depending on what makes sense.
Cool
I'm definitely interested in your take on the B/X specifics in regards to combat.
I have definitely talked about that quite a bit over the years, and will definitely continue to.
Daniel this is super helpful!
Thanks!
Haven't done it this way for decades, but getting geared up to run Shadowdark, where it's a big part of the game. So this has been a helpful reminder.
Nice!
I can’t find the link to the Dyson Logos map. Did I miss it?
Hey Daniel, im having a hard time wrapping my head around hirelings and retainers, could you explain and expand on it? Especially the beginning, like how to go about generating their stats, how many should be available for the party to hire, maybe even tips for roleplaying that? Im playing with a group thats never used those NPCs and i want to make sure i do a good job of introducing the concept and procedures to them
Good topic!
Thanks for going over this, good job. What makes it confusing is how measurements apparentlybchanged from one edition to the next.
By the way, where is the thumbnail from? It's awesome!
Thanks! The art is by Stephen Fabian - I’ve just discovered their work, really enjoying it
@@BanditsKeep Thank you. Let the research begin!
🎉 Awesome video. Thank you!
I run my game very similar. 2 questions:
1) Do you always track number of fields during a turn?
2) How do you handle movement with minis during combat? Are allies allowed to move through allied or enemys fields ? Do allies block line of sight?
Of course this is system dependent, but in BX 1) I take a marching order and “zoom out” while moving and exploring. 2) Allies can (generally) move through and they do not block line of sight (typically). As BX is a very abstracted combat system. If the party is fighting in a tight space, if many party members are in the way etc these are exceptions.
16:45 All these little tasks that the PCs are doing (moving aside the tapestry, looking at the statue, etc.) are all of these 10-minute activities?
No, all of them combined would be the 10 minutes
@@BanditsKeep thanks!
Your videos are great and always thought provoking but you rolled a one here! You've omitted possibly the most important concept. Yes the turn is ten minutes and yes this is a wargamey abstraction but the key is how far you get to move in those ten minutes. Armour, encumbrance, pursuit,, time in the dungeon, resource usage. Means nothing without distance.
🤷🏻♂️ can’t win them all
@@BanditsKeepDo you understand the importance of distance per turn though?
@@mrc8308 yes. I also understand that distance is variable depending on system. Also that encumbrance is an optional rule in some systems, also that some classes and races may have different movement speeds 🤷🏻♂️ I’m not here to detail such things. Feel free to make a video on distance and I will watch though.
I don't make videos. You do. That's a lame parting shot. IIRC ALL rules are optional. I'm talking about the importance of the concept of distance per turn. I'm not sure you do get it.
Could you do a video of open world lair clearing. A fighter must clear a hex of all monster lairs to establish a keep. The numbers of monsters in a lair is massive! How do you play that ?
I would do it as a raid and maybe use mass combat rules. Let me think on it. That being said one of my latest solo plays has a first level party raiding a full orc lair and they do ok for themselves
Would love to see a B/X deep dive,maybe a solo B/X actual play!
A deep dive is interesting- I’m currently doing an OD&D solo game, but BX would also be a great system for that
Thank you so much for this amazing video Daniel. Ive been waiting for you to go over the procedure steps in B/X, well worth the wait.
One question: Does it matter if surprise is checked before encounter distance? Thats how its done in OSE and was curious as to why Gavin changed it from where in B/X it goes distance then surprise. Im curious as to what your thoughts are on this.
Surprise makes sense to be checked first as distance is determined by surprise
@BanditsKeep hi Daniel, do you mind elaborating on when you say distance is determined by surprise? Also so I'm clear I'm not talking about wilderness exploration, I'm talking about Dungeon exploration and in OSE its set up to cover both dungeon and wilderness. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around doing surprise first and then distance. I am so used to the B/X way so curious as to how the OSE way affects the outcome. Thank you
This question may seem lame, but this is what I'm actually confused about: In the parts where the party comes down the stairs, and some are listneing while others are guarding the rear, and still two others split off and search the north and south rooms, how is all of THAT broken down into turns? If a party member steps away 60', is that the end of a turn? and then another turn is spent searching, and then finally a third turn is spent for everyone to move back to the closed door? What about once inside the north and south rooms - is their movement within the rooms part of their search, or do they spend 10 minutes to walk 10', then spend 10 minutes to search, another 10 minutes to walk 10'. All of THAT is what is not clear to me. Thanks!
Each character can act during the turn and it all happens at the same time. Any action that requires movement assumes the movement as part of the actions turn.
@@BanditsKeep this is exactly what I was hoping to learn! Thanks
I used to say 2 Turns to update the map to your current location. That gives me 20 minutes to justify a random monster :)
Nice
I hope WotC reintroduces things like this back into D&D 2024. It seems that much of what we used to do has been lost in the 5e transition and the move to narrative play. I use variations of these "old ways" in my current D&D 5e campaign and my players are completely on-board with it. Some of them also DM and, they tell me, it's like scales have fallen from their eyes!
I also use this style with 5e
The Angry DM's "tension dice" rules are a wonderful mutation of these systems for less B/X-ish games, IMO.
I have never tried those, thanks for sharing
This is the type of thing that is sorely lacking in modern game design. People tend to forget you dont have to stab everything in the dungeon to death and there are other things you can do around too. This just helps break it down into simple language for the average person and im all for it.
Indeed
I think alot of people would benefit from picking up older editions from Drivethrurpg the ad&d editions give simole rules for all of this same as you said with B/X seems like people dont know how to move in dungeons, wilderness etc... great video for People 😁
I agree, the procedures laid out in these older systems can easily be used in any game
Very helpful!
Thanks
what about backtracking? Is there just and endless source of monsters? I feel like the players would get frustrated or bored of farming random monsters in rooms they already cleared
I don't think any additional rolls needed to allow the party (or the monsters) the first action. All action in my games are declared implicitly (without knowing what others will do), and essentially it's rock-paper-scissors. That is, they all go off simultanously regardless of initiative. The initiative result is only used for hit order, and other cases when it may be needed. It often isn't needed though.
Cool
Do this but for wilderness exploration (hex crawling) please!!
I have one in the works
I tried to run a more prodcedural crawl for an Underdark section of the game, felt a little less satisfying than I hoped but I think I wasn’t bringing my A game
Sorry to hear that, I do think it can take a few games to get the flow going with your group.
@@BanditsKeep I kept time and everything, but ultimately I don’t think i sold them on the horror movie dread … i did drop a bunch of giant spiders on them and kill a mule though and split the party in the chaos. Might ask them what they thought… but it didn’t feel good to me.
@@Xplora213 best to survey the players, I’ve run more than one adventure I thought bombed and the players said they had fun. Of course it’s Important we have fun and feel good running too.
When using a 10 foot pole to look and prod for traps, should it be:
1) Finds trap, trap goes off
2) Finds trap, trap needs to be disarmed
3) Finds trap, trap goes off, 10 foot pole is consumed
4) Finds trap, trap goes off, lose 1 foot of the 10 foot pole
5) Finds trap, outcome depends on the trap
?
Indeed
🤣This didn't answer the question.
But, thank you either way.😂
@@Slit518 😂 I didn’t see the question mark lol - but! All of these things could be the case, probably 2 is the most common for “pit traps”, 3/4 for when you poke inside a hole in the wall etc.
Thanks for the quick reply.
I started during 2e D&D, and we would occasionally have a 10 foot pole in a party, but we mainly used them for pole vaulting to other areas.
We may have used them to search for traps, I don't remember.
13:47 interesting. You don’t declare spells before initiative? Is that an AD&D thing ?
I was drawing from BX - not sure how AD&D does it. In my personal game all actions are declared.
@@BanditsKeep cool. Was just reading what you had on screen and didn’t look like actions were declared. But maybe missing some context. AD&D actions are declared ahead of time as well. I’m particular spell casting.
The rules cyclopedia seems to indicate that you cant move and then melee. Bx seems to say you can. They are both considered compatable, but that is a huge difference. Do you have an opinion on that ?
BX is correct 😊 - the reason I say that is the rules in D&D are based on Chainmail and you can move and attack in Chainmail. Also you can move and melee in AD&D so it seems only BECMI has this ruling of the contemporaries
@@BanditsKeep it is hard to remember dnd is a wargame that allows 1v1 combat, not a 1v1 combat game that allows wargaming. It is tough to change the modern mindset. Thanks!
The BX rules say that the DM rolls damage. Do you actually do this?
No, I have the players roll
Sorry to disagree, but I don’t see the point in having a wandering monster pop up on an unexplored empty room, because the party won’t know it was wandering and it misses the point of using such checks to build tension. I think the order of the page you are showing is right: let them move into the room, interact with it and THEN introduce the monster you rolled. But I enjoyed your clear explanation of these procedures.
If that works for you, awesome. I don’t ever differentiate in world what is or is not wandering - with the exception of situations where the party has some intel as to where things should be
Clearly a party ghost 👻
Indeed
The reason why you can play this solo, is because it's a board game and not a role-playing game.
D&D is a board game?
1st..1d6..roll...DECISIVENESS
Indeed!
5e players may be confused. Old-school D&D based movement on exploring the dungeon. You move 120 feet per 1-minute round while checking for traps & secret doors. Movement in combat is very free: you can move 60 feet & still attack with a melee weapon or 1 arrow (or 2, arrows if you don’t move). This is because most events in old-school dungeons are traps, secret doors, examination of clues, and talking to creatures instead of killing them.
5e did away with exploration turns and combat rounds - so yes, could be confusing.
Great content and ideas as always stealing this
Thanks!