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There isn't much more I can say, other than thank you. It's been a bit of insanity getting through this and I am incredibly grateful for the support. Seeing your experiences too, I can only hope this will change some minds at MSI HQ, and elsewhere.
For what it is worth, I respect your channel as much as many of the larger channels out there. Your content has always been thorough and you obviously have a lot of passion. This situation has further proven your dedication to creating ethical and accurate reviews. Keep up the great work, you will be a bug voice in the space before long :)
Asrock blacklisted us after the Z490 content, so we’re waiting for some new PR people who care to do the job well. Thankfully MSI has an excellent PR team in our region right now, long may it last. We’ll also band together with any other reviewer threatened with legal action for an honest review, this happened to us very recently and it’s a shitty situation.
Fortunately, most the companies realize it's a bad idea to sue media over objectively backed statements. ASRock blacklisted us as well, it seems, also because of our Z490 content. Same boat! We even told them we had good things to say about B550, but they stonewalled us. Some companies are too stuck in the past to realize that it's best for everyone to work together -- they'll forget about YEARS of good things that have been said after one critical review drops. It's absolutely insane.
@@GamersNexus Pretty funny, exact same story here about the B550 boards and their response, or lack of. Well done Asrock, I'm sure blacklisting Gamers Nexus and Hardware Unboxed will help boost their dwindling sales.
Gamers Nexus man that’s pathetic. R&D engineer here, it’s a huge slap in the face of our teams when this happens because what we want more than anything is feedback to make the best thing we can in the future...
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday.
@@creeplyjoes8828 wow! Xenophobia at its best. Given that GN has exposed many other tech corporates for dodgy practises including Newegg, Dell, HP and others, your comment is baseless!
@@AdityaBangalore Well, in that case (they never actually want to or intend to pay), it borders with (the operative word is borders with) a fraud. A False promise (made with full knowledge that it is a false promise) that pushes you to do something you wouldn't do otherwise and the perpetrator profits based on your actions fueled by this false promise. So not a good thing no matter how we look at it :)
Yeah, imagine the profits they'd earn if consumer trust would be allowed to build up through engineers speaking the truth. You could make millions that way... Long term.
That's basically all PR reps in every industry. I've been privy to this in the trade show side of things from CES to SEMA and the women they hire (very rarely would they hire men unless they held all kinds of training and experience) would know nothing about the brand or tech and just regurgitate what they were taught in their week long to one month long training on bullsh-tting the customer and are treated as if they belonged in the industry at the trade show they were hired for.
@jt thorsson I reckon this is why AMD is so successful, their CEO is a lady who iirc besides having a PhD in computer engineering (don't quote me on the specialisation) and worked on the PS3's processor. She presumably knew all the jargon Jim Keller used to discuss and develop the Zen architecture, and that can really benefit the development process.
this is very true, they knew the products inside out, they are their "mothers", so to speak. not those kind of ppl who make a living with their mouth (or fingers, in that sense)
This is the bravest, most articulate, well explained and meticulous piece I've ever seen across any journalistic medium. And all of this coming from a die-hard MSI fan who never knew any of this was going on. Bravo (pun intended) for the excellent work, GN and Steve. I've followed you for some time but now you've got me for life.
It is honest and credible journalism that push the company to make better product, punlish bad conner cutting and BS marketing. At the end, it's we the customer and the business as a whole that benefits.
I used to support MSI as well until I got burned by their "paid review" tactics and have since then sorted who I listen to when it comes to reviews and GN ranks in the top, and I guess the 70+ dislikes is MSI representatives...
"Engineers are often not allowed to talk to media [...] they say things that are often true." The smirk when Steve says that is PC review comedy gold (a small niche, admittedly). Anyway, keep fighting the good fight, and I guess I'll keep buying mod mats.
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday. ...................xxxxD
"they don't have media training, they often say something that is... True." Oooh boy, I felt that one deep in my soul. I've got nothing but love for all my compatriots that have to deal with the pressure and inconsistencies that go along with development, quality control, and maintenance.
If you say something publicly that's true and negative for the product, your competitors are going to drag you through the dirt until you're buried. Even if they have the same flaws. It's not fair to for the team.
If it's true everyone will find out eventually, engineers want a good product, the problem is always sales over promising and accountants trying to make cuts at the detriment of the product.
I have to say, I really admire the way you stand up against this kind of immorality and that you choose to expose any and all such behavior. We need more people like you on planet Earth who choose to follow their own reasonable moral compass. You have earned my deep respect for that. Please keep up the good work! :-)
@@benjy117 Dude chill, the company may be foreign but the people working on it and doing this things are totally Americans or "western". Stop blaming foreigners for the things that are been doing here by "our people". This is a common practice for many companies here, in fact, what about not attacking people and instead attacking the bad practices and policies?...
@@benjy117 Attack them? excuse me but can you specify what you mean by that? It does sound pretty extreme even if you did not intend it. The problem is they are the manufacturers because we outsourced most production of silicon and electric components because we are to cheap to pay for the labour and in China nobody gives a fuck about workers rights. The western world is fucking its economy by outsourcing production to countrys where labour and resources are cheaper for a long time now. I mean what can you do as consumer if you want any kind of computation device ? There are no companies in this realm that aren't producing and manufacturing in China. And that's like this for most industries, at least here in western Europe. Contrary, jobs are cut because of more and more outsourcing to China. A good friend of mine works as a "Link" to the chinese Pruducers for Continental, a pretty big corporation and they laid off like 30% of workers in my location this year alone. All due to outsourcing more manufacturing to china because they make a shitload of money more this way. We cant stop this trend, the industries will not do something good for economy if it doesnt make them more money. Its sad but it is how it is and it wont stop. Products are designed here and produced where its at the lowest cost to produce them if i were in a position where i would be responsible for such a project i'd do the same, what choice do you have in a middleman position like my friend? Either you do it like they want and get the best price or you are out of your Job and good luck finding one in the same field after botching a big operation worth billions. Edit: The company i mentioned issued a Statement that they are closing down Operations in Germany completely, first people are getting let of starting 2021, it will be more than 7000 People losing their Job. Pretty fucked up.
@Harry Beaver whats it then ? its a ball of shit thats rotating perpetually so we do not drown in shit? Edit: Sorry for the rant, i was to high and drunk last night, even for my standards.
You can always rely on Gamers Nexus for impartial, factual, and honest review practices. The amount of work put in your research and your commitment to integrity are things I will always respect you for. Thanks for all you do!
meh..... MSI has good ideas, but they try to save to many pennys. same with thermaltake . EX..... my 990FXA-GD80 AM3+ mobo didnt have any LLC control (it was fixed, cant be adjusted) and actually INCREASED voltage when under load. went from 1.48 (safe) to 1.55+ under load (given the load was prime 95, and in most games, it only went to 1.52 ish, which is "safe" as long as its cool (and i had a nh-d15, so it was fine) . it would have cost 10 cents to use a different bios chip with enough memory / features to have an adjustable LLC ASUS, foxconn, biostar, ETC had LLC controls on their AM3 and AM3+ boards.... but MSI did not . MSIs VRM on that board.... despite being a "16 phase" iirc..... acted more like a 4 phase, and ran hot as hell
After buying these products over decades (since this company was known as "Microstar International", or really just "Microstar"), it's difficult to declare winners and losers, at least beyond the now mostly non-existent previous low-tier brands like PC-CHIPS and ECS. Asus consistently has the best reputation but other than them being the first company to specifically cater to competitive overclocking with boutique boards, I haven't seen much of a difference long term in the average quality of their products. That is, sometimes the reputation is deserved and other times it seems someone is asleep at the wheel; that goes with all of these companies. Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI have all been around since the mid-80s, and, from my perspective, they've been on a similar level taking the entire history into account. Biostar sticks out as a similarly aged company that is still around but not on the same level.
This video alone will make me active steer customers away from this, This type of behavior is unacceptable. It is one thing to pull someone from review sample because you didn't like their opinion, like Steve said often that is temporary and short lived. However to actively sabotage or influence reviews is just unethical.
4 роки тому+927
When you burn bridges by being honest, it's the industry that has a problem, not you.
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday. (Be caution of Spy's chip inside also, soon).......xxxZ
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again.....,....
Last time I recall he did that was the hilarious Tom's article on the RTX launch. I replay his "What the fuck? Is this satire? Patrick, is this satire?" multiple times every time I rewatch that.
just a quote/proof: Gamers Nexus -- Der8auer & Steve: All the Problems with CES | Laziness, Lying, & Bad Products - ua-cam.com/video/1qNNddXGsvU/v-deo.htmlm53s LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL 11 :03 guess who was mentioned
Patreon and the store are a HUGE reason we can keep expanding our equipment/test practices and also forfeit ad money when we find a company to be in disagreement with our high requirements.
@@GamersNexus I wish that the shipping costs were not such a large percentage of the overall purchase price, as I would want more of the money to go to you, and not the shipper.
Dragon center not working anymore: Hello, Dragon center used to work but now i'm waiting for SDK installation. User scenario and mystic lights is missing. Also my motherboard RGB is stuck on the default rainbow = half the posts in the r/MSI_Gaming subreddit. MSI coud't care less about dragon center, but it's for laptops. aaand it's in the utilities downloads for their B450 motherboards. Use bloat standalone mystic light instead.
@@CosmicCleric The shipper is a separate small business that GN and Steve trust to do things right. That extra you pay for shipping supports a different family business that also does a lot to reduce plastic waste in their shipping.
@@supervillain3213 Apologies, but 47% of the total purchase price for shipping is too excessive to justify your rationalizations. Edit: feel free to site other products that have a 50%ish shipping cost.
I ran a Computer store in the mid 90s, and we ran into this with companies. That was back when a 150 mb hard drive was $1500.00. I cant imagine what it is like now. Good luck to you. Love your channel.
The transparency and objectivity of GN is never in doubt. If there's one source I trust, it's you guys. This video is further evidence that GN are not "shills".
They could be shilling for the competition! Im kidding of course. I don't think there is any company I have ever seen steve and his hair have universally good reviews on every product they touch. I am sure there are brands they consistently like more than others, but that would tell me more of those companies higher level of quality over bias from these guys. GN always seems pretty up front with their own procedures and protocols. .
@@tcclaviger We know that because we've seen GN's reviews, it sucks that they'll have to source their own samples because consumers (especially those who are new to this hobby and just googling something for a review before purchasing it) still need to be informed.
@@tcclaviger Agreed, which is why the more reviews (especially those that do in-depth testing/analysis) the better. Also the whole thing of don't judge on the brand, judge on the actual product (brand loyalty/avoidance).
My MSI motherboards are graphics cards were usually crap. The MSI Ventus OP OC 2070 Super is an okay card though. I like my buddy's ASUS 2070 Super better though. Forget the model but it has a huge heat sink and stays in the low 60's under extreme stress. My Ventus hits 80 sometimes but that is more my case's fault. I have an NZXT 510.
@@dakoderii4221 I have the Titanium Motherboard an it is total garbage.. got it super cheap, but it wasn't worth it. My new Aorus Mainboard is sooo much better. However I got the 5700XT Gaming X for relatively cheap. And while I think the MSRP for that card is way too high, I have to say it really is the beste 5700XT if you ignore the price. My Friend has the Nitro+ and it is really good too, but just a little more noisy. So IMHO MSI is pretty hit and miss and that is not a good thing. I think Gigabyte for example are way more consistent IMHO that is what you want as a consumer. Also so far it seems to me Gigabytes Marketing is more "fair" than MSI and ASUS.
I once got my ass chewed for talking to a customer. I asked the boss if I was doing anything illegal telling the truth. I then told them they'd better fire my ass if they expected me to lie. I'm still here, and still irritating management
I remember the day I found your channel after browsing trough so much marketing/influencer bullshit videos, I was so glad, especially because your channel delivers extremely good, professional and unbiased content to this day and beyond
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday. (Be caution of Spy's chip inside also, soon)......,
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again......,,,...
Have bought 2x MSI GPU's in 5 years. Had no problems with them. Honestly they've been fantastic. What I do have a problem with is bullying. No customer loyalty is worth that. Today it's the reviewers, tomorrow it's the customers. I think I'll look elsewhere for my next upgrade.
They are already bullying their customers with their warranty support. When your MSI-branded mobo or GPU dies on you under warranty, just try to return it to a place of purchase or contact MSI support directly. It's a big issue, at least where I live. Even though I like their products, I refrain from buying or recomending them.
I remember a time, when the german print magazin "PCGames Hardware" wrote about Msi's Method to pimp the Test Sample Videocards by a modified "Press Bios" with higher specs then retail
@@creeplyjoes8828 bruh who tf are you, english is obviously not your native language and you keep going on about chinese spies in your comments and saying "we" should boycott in the USA. You've probably never even been to America lol
I wrote a review on Amazon.com about MSI motherboard that I bought back in 2014. It was a fair review of the board and for my efforts I was threatened with a lawsuit if I did not "correct" my review. I told them to proceed with the lawsuit. That I found it funny that a huge company would care about one review of a product. My ability to review products on Amazon was removed for all products that I bought through Amazon. Amazon removed my review of the MSI motherboard. Oddly, several dozen others also highlighted the same issues I had with the same motherboard in their customer reviews. MSI's main claim was that since I returned the defective board, I could not review it. Amazon apparently agreed. No legal action was taken against me. (As of 2015, my ability to review products on Amazon was restored.)
That's an odd stance to take for Amazon. If you have experience with the product and returned it, people should know why. I have reviewed a few products I've had to return (a Gigabyte GPU and Dell Mixed Reality Headset come to mind immediately) and I centered my review sounds specifically why I had to return it.
@@FireFoxBancroft my MSI board sucks lol and just heard about what MSI is really like as a company. Screw MSI, never buying one of their products again.
@@deivytrajan msi z370 gaming plus. First off, when a pcie wifi card is installed, the PC will not turn off. It just comes straight back on. Second, the onboard audio stutters and crackles after a few hours. It's not the drivers. Third, I bought a USB audio dac/amp to both increase audio quality and bypass the onboard audio. But the USB ports refuse to power it properly, with it glitching out and giving me not enough resources error on Windows. Works perfect, even on my laptop from 2003 (not even joking here, my laptop from 2003 functions better than my msi z370 gaming plus) Although somehow I changed a bunch of stuff, and now it's working. It seems this exact combination of bios settings and this exact USB port I'm using on the front is allowing the dac/amp to work at least until I upgrade whenever ryzen 4000 is released. Overall, this is what you'd expect from a £20 Chinese motherboard from Wish, not a £120 motherboard from a (once was) reputable company. These problems should NOT exist even in budget products but ESPECIALLY when you start getting into the high end chipset. Admittedly the lower end of the z370 boards, but still, I only have an i5. And before you ask, I've tried troubleshooting all of this and no one has been able to fix any of these issues. I'm on the latest bios from a about a month ago and it fixed literally nothing.
So now all i can see is a dragon burning bridges with knight snowflake doing battle with it while the rest of GN is playing heavy metal during the battle. Still more power to you for sticking to your beliefs.
It's not only MSI it's every single company... But of course as you say it depends on the PR, MSI in Spain is better, there are some competitors that are way worse
@Ut1F70F Sin Laptops have their place, but more typically in the workplace or for school. Desktops and even mobile workstations are superior, of course, but they're also more expensive. Hobbyists, gamers, and more pc resource intensive professionals should steer clear of laptops if they can avoid it, but all others it's a valid option, albeit with tradeoffs.
MSI have to remember that they sell to almost all segments to the PC builder. One bad experience can mean that one person never buys MSI again. If this happens often enough, then MSI will do irreparable damage to themselves. Short term gains and cover-ups are NEVER good bed-fellows.
This is a great point. I've been building since the 90s I generally buy a single brand (which I won't name so I can't be accused of shilling) despite how much the company does stuff that pisses me off simply because I've never had a bad part from them. Yet I've had defective or just poorly functioning parts from a lot of other companies (some of which no longer even exist) and it definitely scares you off certain brands. Building a whole computer, especially if you're taking time to cable manage, just to find out the motherboard is screwed and you have to return it is a monumental pain in the ass.
@@Weaver_Games Absolutely. I stuck with gigabyte mobo's for years because I love their custom boot logo's. This really personalises a PC . I know it's stupid, but it's a really nice touch. My customers love it! But having one fail a week after building an entirely new personal PC... I can't say I'll buy one again. Ironically I'm using an MSI board now. Do you remember when MSI was new... they were absolute garbage. Now they're pretty good boards.
had an msi board once. am3 socket ... sweating thermal pads on the mosfets fried my fx 6300.. twice... >.> never msi since then edit: this problem > www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/5lrvzt/help_with_vrm_leaking_from_msi_970_gaming_am3_mobo/
@@DJ-Daz the reddit link was an example. the two msi boards leakt just like that and fried the poor cpu and itself. yes it was just an 105€ mb. still i dont expect leaking pads to fry my cpu D:
Just go back to the 90 and look on MSI they were not know for quality, now days they have got a bit better products but there still the same old crap i my eyes They need to do some thing with the management.
MSI to GN: “Noooooo you can’t show what we actually said, we try so hard to look good tho” GN to Thermaltake: "Your products suck" Thermaltake to GN: "We know"
I love "The engineers are blocked off because the don't have media training and THEY TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT THE PRODUCT." As an engineer myself this makes me smirk and nod.
I started watching this channel for the in depth case reviews, and stay for the journalistic integrity. Great work all around people. The progression of this channel is evident. Keeps the hits coming, thank you.
I love how Steve just don't give a Frick about pissing off "Industry Partners" ... And I love it ... Don't ever stop. Most trusted tech youtuber EVER! ... going to preorder a mod mat now :)
"If you can't get a laptop undamaged to a reviewer, why should we trust that YOU, MSI, can deliver one to a customer?" Damn I can feel the smell of the burns from here!
if you ship something from say Taiwan or China usually when it reach country they have no say in what transport company that are to deliver it. specially if there is one main state operated mail transporter.... (welcome to Europe...) and MSI like all manufactures also don't ship directly to customers, they ship to retailers and if broken underway it's not a customers problem unless it's from retailer to customer and then it's the retailers problem, so it's a bit trowing the torch at wrong person by GN just to make a cheap line... not at defence at what MSI have being doing, but criticise where criticise is due.
@@brrebrresen1367 MSI said that it was most likely damaged during shipping and GN included that in the review. And... later on it became apparent that it was a common problem with the laptop. Yeah that quote might have been a bit harsh, but since he mentioned both the damage and MSI's claim he acted fairly. He also didn't mention in the review that MSI wanted him to remove the info about the damage. So... that shipping quote is totally irrelevant IMO. If Steve had included the conversation with the MSI rep (including the above quote), then I would agree. Feel free to disagree though. :)
@@brrebrresen1367 It's not the fault of the delivery service at any stage if MSI simply doesn't have adequate packaging for their products. MSI is fully aware of what it takes to get an undamaged product to a customer.
@@bwood6337 , have had 8mm plywood crates been broken to pieces but also gotten parts of glass perfectly delivered in an single layer of bubblewrap in an envelope...so what is "adequate" is up to debate... but if it's a recurring problem it's worth mentioning when doing a review but then the reviewer also have to know if the package they received the review model in is the same as normal customers are getting or some extra fancy stuff like Asus and Gigabyte likes to use (and MSI for that matter, they are none better) and Nvidia absolutely loves for their review samples.
As a consumer, I've always loved the products that I have bought from MSI. The products have always been reliable, and MSI was quick to fix any issues that I ran into (X99 big oof). However, it's important to me that the companies I support do not resort to the tactics of a playground bully to try to strongarm reviewers into a glowing review, or getting rid of a slightly dull one. I totally agree with GN here, a company's focus should be improving the product and, ultimately, learning from the issues that are encountered by the community. It is as if they do not think that the way they treat people will get back to us, the End User. That kind of low behavior can only color impressions a certain way. I sincerely hope they can improve their relationship with reviewers, who, besides consumers, are their greatest asset. It is super sad to hear that this is, at all, industry standard.
If MSI or any other company watch this and read the comments, for the most part I and many of my friends in the pc building community will not buy a product if GN (and other trusted sites) post a review pointing out the flaws. No we don’t blindly follow GN but we trust them for honest no bs reviews so if your thinking of any further comeback on GN you Will lose a big part of your customer base.
This comment puts more leverage on to deny review privileges to . I personally only buy products that are reviewed by people who have in the past negatively reviewed a product, and are now reviewing the update to that product. Or the review is contrastive between products in a similar market space, and still includes negatives for the product. If there are no negatives, no data with methodology, I don't trust that the reviewer to have fully reviewed a product. This video here, is a good review of how a deals with reviewers. It has negatives, and some datapoints and a little bit about methodology (harder to measure because we are dealing with wet-ware), which makes this more trustworthy in my eyes. This also makes me trust this to review other parts of 's products, as they seem to promise to have similar integrity in future reviews.
12:40 when he says the engineers tell the truth XD I formerly worked at a high profile luxury dealership as an automotive technician. We were reminded, almost weekly, to, basically, shut up around clients. For me, I'm a talker. I have major issues haggling or telling a lie of any kind. It's just difficult! I mean, WHY LIE?? Especially when it's the client's money! I mean, basically, they pay my bills when they pay for service! But also I wish I could haggle because I'd be able to sell stuff at a higher price lol.
They don't want honesty because these companies want higher margins all over obviously. It's extremely damaging long term because smart customers thus get lost pretty fast. But they dont see nor care about this at all. Because there's plenty of normal customers in their mind. Double-spitting on ordinary people.
@@CYellowan I never understood this. Clearly REPEAT business comes only from people with a good experience. I refuse to this day to buy ASUS laptops because of one particularly shittily built one I had ten years ago... They'd have to come up with something truely special for me to forget how badly that laptop was designed. I just opt to go with brands that haven't disappointed me.
Yeah, as a prior ASM I get it, but to us it's the hours per RO, and making sells improves our bonus and your flat rate time as well. It always felt guilty selling that coolant flush, but it's just how dealerships are. And yeah, no techs are allowed to talk to customers. That's a big rule in automotive. ASM sells service to customer, tech sells service to ASM. Everyone eats. But- got out of that field a long time ago. Away from selling period. Better person because of it.
I would guess it is because the large majority of consumers/buyers are controlled more by emotion and lies rather than rational thought and honesty. Engineers would most likely be an exception in the role of the consumer as rational thinking and being aware of inner workings of products is a large part of their job and so could play a larger part in their lives. The customer experience is for the most part an emotional thing. I mean there are websites comparing computer parts and cars down to the last detail (and even then they are used only by a small percentage of buyers), but you won't find anything comprehensive for say, household appliances or whatever. An interesting example would be how a certain smartphone gets 4 to 5 stars on almost all review websites but on one site where only verified users post reviews it's down to 3 because it actually has serious technical problems. Which basically means all those other websites are unreliable and the reviews were probably bought.
Another fun thing I remember helping my friend fix his MSI laptop back in 2019, the GPU cooling fan in his laptop broke, and the reason for this was a design flaw in the laptop where it HAD to be set on a flat surface. He kept his laptop on a laptop cooler/riser to help keep it cool. How in the FUCK do you design a laptop so poorly you can't have a common helpful product added under the laptop, or it will break the fans. ALSO the tear down to get to the fans basically required a full tear-down to have the mobo out- which the tear-down for said laptop was so antagonistic I thought it was an apple product.
Ok Steve, I'm new to Patreon and recently decided to support HUB because I really love their neutrality and unbiased opinion on hw tech, I've followed some tech channels for a while but the ones I watch and follow the most include HUB, LTT and GN. I am now proud to be a patreon of your channel. This video shows your dedication and effort to properly inform your audience. I don't do this often and although HUB got my first Patreon spot GN is now part of the feed and that makes me feel like im actually kinda giving back (at least a little) for the quality content you all create which I know takes a lot of time, money, frustration, anger, patience, dedication, etc (i know list goes on forever). Keep up the great work and never change! EDIT: This video was the final push towards that patreon sub. PS: Best wishes from PR.
@@bcarr1122 Hardware Unboxed. They are every bit as technically competent as GN. Their journalistic profile is, imho, a little more well rounded than GN, but not as fun. I absolutely love it when Steve gives someone a good roasting, but I usually double check with HUB as well, because they tend to go a bit deeper in looking at the issue from as many angles (and sides of opinion) as possible. From what I understand, HUB also works with Builzoid on VRM stuff. Can't recommend them enough.
MSI: Makes the best midrange AM4 motherboards (especially the ridiculously popular B450 Tomahawk) and gains huge respect within the tech community for improving their X570 designs after they were criticised by reviewers. Also MSI: Destroys their own reputation when they had one of the strongest positions in the market, to try to take down a handful of negative reviews (which existed alongside a generally heavily positive sentiment, and an expectation that they would be able to solve their problems like they did with their X570s).
@@timothygibney5656 MSI BIOS can be somewhat less intuitive to use, it isn't necessarily ''lied'', but many important detail that will affect eventual voltage input is not being put in front and center.
Stephen Gibb I’m loving my MSI board but I’ve only ever built 2 PC’s, what makes you dislike them so much? I’m genuinely asking because I intend on building more and would like to learn before making more decisions.
Can we just take a second to appreciate how GREAT of a techtuber community we have these days? GN, Hardware Unboxed and yes even Linus nowdays are trustworthy sources with actual ethics! This is extremely rare in our world today where journalism in most cases is simply undercover commercial or political propaganda. Both the big and the smaller guys (AdoredTV, TechYesCity or Joker productions for example) are right there to call out anything shady going on in the industry. It feels so great to have people you know you can trust to protect you to an extent from the corporate interests of big companies.
People like to say linus is biased, but it's only because hes become so successful. How sad is it that the industry is so crooked that the natural assumption is that anyone who gets ahead must be crooked as well
Just wanted to come back and say, I was an assassin hired by MSI to off Mr. Burke, but unfortunately as Mr. Burke never leaves his studio, we were unable to get our own retaliation killshot off
This sounds like the CEO of a company i worked for when i first started in the I.T. industry who would, and this was a ongoing internal joke, "XXXXXX (the CEO) would rather spend a dollar to ignore a problem or cover warranties then to spend a dime to fix the problem" and it sounds like this is MSI's thinking as well. SAD
Yep, you find that kind of short sighted behaviour everywhere. Fixing requires an investment at first, but is in many cases the cheaper option as time passes. But people sadly still prefer to gamble and ignore problems until everything comes crashing down.
@@Sundara229 Yes, you are correct, it is not only less costly in the long run as well as potentially ruining the reputation of your company and or its products as well. Morale of the story is the spend that dime now and save a dollar (and your rep) later
this is exactly what i love about GN, it "i dont give a shit about what the emails say, if it's shitty, im gonna say its shitty. if its good, im gonna say its good." it is for this reason that i started watching this channel, because i knew that if you said it was a good product, i could trust it for me and more importantly, for those people who pay me to build systems for them. im currently running one of those MSI gaming X 1080 video cards, the little brother to the 1080ti that buildzoid reviewed very positively, and the reason ive held onto it is because i can solidly cement the review of the device. it's been a top shelf performer for me for several years, even with doing things like folding@home, which pushes 100% throttle all the time. based on the trend, i will probably steer clear of newer MSI products, unless GN shows them in a good light, because i have also seen several MSI items, especially in the laptop sector, that have been rather lackluster, especially when taking price into account. my wife is running an older 990FX chipset msi board while we save for her Ryzen upgrade, and it's been a bit of a pickle to run, whereas my beat-to-shit 990FX Sabertooth from Asus was a flawless performer since 2013, even being overclocked running 1.51 volts at the cpu the entire time of that board (which ended only a few months ago, when i built my 3950x rig). Ive been in the hardware game since the Pentium 3 came out, so over 20 years of system building experience, so i do have a few brands that i stick to like glue when it comes to building my own personal rigs. but i do often rely on the reviews of folks like GN, and Jayztwocents, Pauls Hardware, Bitwit, and the dropped items on Linus Tech Tips, when i go to recommend hardware to a friend or a customer. for all of this honesty and reliability, i thank GN and the other top Tech-Tubers for sticking to their guns and putting up honest reviews. One of the LTT crew just reviewed a prebuilt system recently and was rather disappointed in it, and they stated that, which i thought was really good. the suggestions on improvements were logical and attainable suggestions, and considering the cost of the item, if i were to build the same system, i would have done the exact things they suggested to improve on it. i feel that honest reviews are harder and harder to find in a lot of industries because money means so much these days, but im happy that the list of reviewers i follow have stuck to their guns and done everything they could to keep reviews honest and on a level playing field. keep up the good work!
@@TechEpiphany Hey that's the motherboard I have in my office PC. Still going strong - it's not doing any heavy lifting like gaming or rendering, but still runs well. It's running Folding@Home on the GPU only, and seems to do that well.
Movie reviews and game reviews have in large part fallen victim to these kinds of scummy behavior, since it seems entertainment journalists are more afraid of not being invited to previews and get advance copies of the games. But just like for tech reviews, I hope integrity lasts over time, because it's not like I'm going to trust a reviewer who lies about what they like or even what's in the movie or game that they're reviewing.
Totally respect you all standing up for the "little" guy. These practices should not be hidden regardless of whatever consequences the manufactures attempt to threaten you with. Keep up the great work GN!
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again.........,,,
@@creeplyjoes8828 i don't want to alert you creeply but i saw some asian men in trenchcoats in front of your apartment last night. you should keep going
Installed the MSI software to manage my GPU colors, it immediately installs a whole bunch of bloatware in additional the wanted software. Avoid Dragon Center.
Same here, that crap managed to open 5 millions handles just for the lighting control and started slowing down my machine hard drive. Removed that crap instantly
Yup... it installs bunch of useless software and you can't even uninstall it e.g. LAN manager, even if you disable/uninstall it it comes back everytime. It's good to avoid it.
@Sean Price Russian developer Unwinder works on the Afterburner and RivaTuner Statistics server. It's based on his RivaTuner application that he created about 20 years ago. So MSI just pays him to have their logo on it.
Well, I'm glad you spoke about that and in particular about the design oversight of the MSI laptop with the bottom cover grill not matching the cooler fan whatsoever. Mine has exactly that problem (an MSI GE72 from a few years back). When I opened it to clean and I noticed that I couldn't believe my eyes. I swore right then and there *never* to buy any MSI product ever again and I stuck to it. I used to consider them top notch but this (and a 980 ti that broke for no appearent reason) was the deal breaker. It doesn't surprise me that they're the kind of people who intimidate reviewers to cover up their decision-makers' failures. What a scummy corporation. I'll gladly pay 20 to 30% more any other brand for the same specs but they will never get my money again.
Bought a T-Shirt because of your incredibly thorough and technical videos, the crazy liquid nitrogen videos and your independent stance and honesty. Keep doing what you're doing, an invaluable and always entertaining service. I'll be saving up for a mod mat I think. Thank you.
up to 157. Thats actually kind of low IMO, when you consider how many MSI marketing employees just got thrown sh!t at (granted its deserved and necessary, but its still throwing sh!t).
massive props to steve and gn as a whole for supporting smaller content creators and citing willingness to utilize their platform to ensure people don't get shafted
That was actually so real though "There is no 'we', you weren't here, when i was making 180$ in my first year, working every hour of my life to build what became this..." Huge respect to the GN team and ofc Tech Jesus
WARNING: Engineers are untrained in propaganda practices. Do not allow engineers to publicly speak about products. - Some sign on an office block somewhere at MSI
Not just MSI. This is common in most industries. Technical/engineering staff tend to be honest to customers. PR Training has no affect on these people as you can't train the ethics out of an honest individual.
@@CrouchingGoatHiddenDonkey This is absolutely the case for me at a large software company. We are not allowed to make any public statements as engineers.
@@CrouchingGoatHiddenDonkey not necessarily they are honest, but in Canada, if you want to keep the title of professional engineer, you are bound by ethics code which limits you from pulling deception on public, and if you did, you will lose you title.
"...Do you think we could change the title so it looks more like you're describing our black and grey motherboards as being a "killshot"? We know this will take your time and effort, but understand your morals... Oh I hope I don't leave this wallet-sized brown paper bag on the table right here when I leave... [wink]... But if I do, I will forget about it completely, so you may as well keep whatever is inside... Even if it is Pokemon cards... Or the money I was going to use to buy Pokemon cards........[wink]"
I doubt the average employee is supportive of what the higher ups do and think. I'm sure they're just as much on the receiving end of MSI's lack of ethics, as the customers are.
@@RFLCPTR Not all. I've worked in a few huge tech companies. They hire people who share their values as much as they can. If you don't share their values, you'll be pushed out in some way.
true that. GN isn't perfect. Sometimes they go too slow on some points or repeat some things a few too many times but I can trust their methodology. Whereas some other guys like Hardware canuks provide great visuals but I can't always trust their reviews. For example they spoke so highly of the evolv mATX case. I bought it only to find the thermals are complete garbage. This was not mentioned in the review at all
@@rhoharane It's actually: Shut up! ( _7 Ste. 31 GN_ ). That is to say, " _on the 31st day of the 7th month the Holy Steve uttered these words (Gamer's Nexus translation)_ ". The text should also be red, but youtube doesn't allow that option.
I have watched a couple of videos of this channel, but this right here made me subscribe to it. Now in the future my first place to find a review will be here. Integrity is a rarity! Thank you for being honest!
"Media reps are linebackers, stopping engineers talking to the press. They don't have media training; they tend to say things that are true." :D Can't make mistakes if you have no tech - thank f&ck for engineers!
In a sense they are trying to focus on stopping a run up the middle or towards the edges and also stopping a pass over the top and keeping things in front of them
If you are a good company you should be hiring PR people who are engaged and passionate about your industry, who work just as hard as engineers merely in a different way. This might not be happening with MSI but think of all the examples you don’t hear about because they’re done the right thing.
I mean at some level is also for their protection. Internet is cool but is also a dark and negative place. If an engineer says something wrong or is perceived in a bad way he can have hell released on all his platforms in a blink. Many times this doesn't stop just on the person but also moves on to their close family who had social media. Public people sign for this and get use to it but there is a lot of people who are not ready, nor do they want to deal with this part of been public.
@@vinaly Just think of Apple being the face of battery throttling as a related example. Everybody does it for a good reason, but somebody at Apple decided to break the secret and nobody liked that. I personally didn't find the original quote to be offensive or even very surprising in any way, and although I don't like Apple as a company I think the public backlash was a little unfounded. I do like Apple's attempt at improving PR by including battery health monitoring information in the system settings.
@@PotatotheTroll Not sure if apple is the best example as i consider them exactly the opposite. They are pretty much in a crusade against repairers and plainly abusing the consumers with their over the top controlling and making excuses as to why is "necessary" but they have amazing PR and marketing, but in their case instead of talking to reviewers, check repairers and see how many of them have been attacked, thread with sues, have they stores close, and so on. There is a literal war on the right to repair been fight against apple
These tactis are disgusting and deep-rooted. Thank you for posting this GN. As someone who built a new PC a few months ago, I had bought the B450 Tomahawk MAX, which makes me feel disgusted for purchasing an MSI product, (which I'll never do again), but luckily it was one of their "good" products. I'll pass on purchasing any MSI product in the future if this continues.
This video reminds of when I use to review 10 years ago. Whenever I wrote negatively about a product, you could tell how good the manufacturers were based on their response. Gelid were the first to comment when I first started out because I didn't recommend their product over another, and asked me to change their conclusion. Being new to this and the website having only just started, I ended up rewording the conclusion as a compromise, although the results and observations hadn't changed. The next was the CoolIT Domino which although innovative at the time was just not very good. The sent me another sample to retest and waste my time on but when the results were no different, they didn't want us to publish the review. We did anyway. Their next cooler turned out much better... The Antec Kuhler 620 was another one I had issues with. Their plastic mounting clips and poor screw designs meant you could easily break them or warp your motherboard. I suggested they used spring loaded ones and metal brackets as part of the review. Again, they complained about the review but we left it up. Thankfully, they did actually go back and redesigned the mounting bracket and it was no longer an issue. AlpenFohn sent us their K2 prototype which I reviewed and found it to be slightly behind the top coolers. They read the review and instead of complaining sent us a proper retail sample a month later. That turned out much better and I use that cooler till this day. The ones that appreciate and take onboard your test results are the ones that made the whole job worthwhile, not that I got paid for any of it...
You always know Gamers Nexus will give it to you straight. It’s what keeps me coming back. They’re practically my tech “news channel” now. Keep up the awesome work guys, we really appreciate it!
Well it looks like an overwhelmingly positive reception to this video. I'm glad you're speaking out, because this kind of behaviour is unacceptable. When reviewers get cars to test for example, if they overheat or leak or whatever you don't hide it. At all. Why is this expected when it comes to expensive hardware? An RTX 2080 ti costs a significant chunk of money, not as much as a car certainly, but a lot. If it was busy overheating (like the RX5700 XT models did from MSI and others) to omit it is a failure and a scandal.
Dan The Car Man I have a strict EVGA Build. They are unmatched in customer service, and they have the step up program. They build some of the best graphics cards. I also use a Z390 Dark motherboard and the thing is simply amazing. So easy to overclock and keep stability. I also love the 3 bios on it.
That’s really sad when an overall good company instead of taking some criticism seriously and improve a product tries to censor reviewers. The reviewers help you, MSi, to build better products. Swallow it and go engineering instead of doing marketing for low quality ware
Pride and Shame... this still exists in Asian culture but not in Murika. MSI takes too much pride in their legacy to accept the slightest criticism of their product. Now they get to deal with the shame that comes as a consequence of having too much pride.
It's nice to rewatch videos like this to remind what brands avoid to buy (eg when having to choose between two simmilar products from diff manufacturers)
That's the point. Instead of keeping everything purely professional the PR guy is trying to act like there is a personal component to this relationship and posting something negative would hurt the relationship between them.
@@nanoflower1 or they know, if they word it less subjectively, they are asking for something on the edge of illegal objectively. it's not just trying to be 'friendly' sounding. A true friend doesn't say things like that, they will tell you when ye messed up and try to help you correct it, they will also admit when they were wrong about something instead of casting blame elsewhere.
Someone who has been trained to influence people And win what is an emotional wrestling match. Using corporate as a not subtle threat. In the corporate world it works. The pressure of seeming to put themselves out there. They build it up step by step to get what they want.
This video is one of the reasons you are the ONLY person on the entirety of UA-cam that I actually bought, and will again buy merch from. I believe in what you do and I believe that working towards your financial independence was the best move you could have made. You have the best, most informative/detailed and most unbiased reviews I have ever seen. Your followers can tell how passionate you are (even through all your seriousness lol), not only about what you do, but how you put proper standards and ethics first. Plus your merch is seriously awesome and I can't wait to get those giant mouse pads :D
I know right! GN shirts RULE! Don't forget our boi Kyle though. Screw with confidence shirt making fun of the verge is still the best tech shirt EVER. Steve even loves him, so..... Actually!!! Wheres our Roast of Kyle from Bitwit!!?? Come on Steve... Nevermind. Too busy donating to my favorite cause. Linus didn't even no about it. But we do. Thanks for being a cat person, and donating all your winnings too. True hero... I knew you would smoke Jay (so did he). Loved his "not LTT" waterbottle with (shhh-gin and juice) but moreso your LN2 finish. True baller!!! DerBauer is proud too...
I do have a MSI 3070 X Trio since it's the only GPU that was available at MSRP, and it's been great, no complaints. However this video is a reminder why no one should fanboy for any company. Just because I have an MSI GPU in my PC doesn't mean I can't absolutely hate and criticize them for their crappy conduct, which I am. It's saddening that I have to remind people to not be tech company fanboys but here we are. They get so attached to the products theyre buying that they go as far as to defend the company behind it no matter what they do just so their purchase feels... validated? Well news flash, it is validated if it's working great for you. The company behind it doesnt have to be perfect. No company is perfect. You should still call out companies on their bullshit like Steve did here.
"A lot of things they say are true" That got an audible HAH out of me. Its like what Linus said about his Intel video. Corporate getting in the way is a shame
I remember that time when a reviewer was like "hey, this is terrible because x y and z, do you really want this published or not?" and the response was "do it, our marketing dept. needs to listen to the engineering dept. more."
Engineers are often not allowed to speak because they might cause damage by saying something that is going to be received otherwise than intended. The fact alone that reviewers don't get access to engineers is not negative at all and Steve even says this in the video. I am an engineer, if I work on one part of the product and I am asked about the product, I might unintentionally harm the product by saying something that is true, but not relevant to the review. For example - the reading head is capable of reading X megabytes per second. Reviewer comes out with bombshell proving through my interview that device Y can only read X megabytes per second. I worked on engineering the reading head, I didn't know they put 5 of them into the resulting device. So suddenly there is drama about something that isn't dramatic at all, just because some engineer didn't know to keep their mouth shut. Spokepersons have their legitimate place on the market.
@@emsicz True. In the ideal case spokespeople can help prevent that confusion. But in some companies they're also used to just lie (often by omission).
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again.....,
Takes out USB bootable windows 11 USB drive with all my personal account information stored on it in TPM 2.0 mode from laptop and desktop PC for resale after getting inspected for anything to need repairing before selling it on let go.
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@jt thorsson I think you mean LOW QUALITY, but I'll take either!
Steve ist einer der besten IT-Profis!
Holy shots fired.
@ Did you even watch the video? Pay attention.
@@brianorourke4880 I think we found the MSI rep.
There isn't much more I can say, other than thank you. It's been a bit of insanity getting through this and I am incredibly grateful for the support. Seeing your experiences too, I can only hope this will change some minds at MSI HQ, and elsewhere.
GN Please pin this.
For what it is worth, I respect your channel as much as many of the larger channels out there. Your content has always been thorough and you obviously have a lot of passion. This situation has further proven your dedication to creating ethical and accurate reviews. Keep up the great work, you will be a bug voice in the space before long :)
@@RaiderOfTheLost what is your problem?
I admire your onisty and resolve, keep it up and never waver, from one honest reviewer to another.👍
@@RaiderOfTheLost ok mr smalltime 0k dont act big you're also a 12y/o kid
Asrock blacklisted us after the Z490 content, so we’re waiting for some new PR people who care to do the job well. Thankfully MSI has an excellent PR team in our region right now, long may it last.
We’ll also band together with any other reviewer threatened with legal action for an honest review, this happened to us very recently and it’s a shitty situation.
It's nice to see the other Steve show solidarity here 👀 Keep up the good fight HU!
Fortunately, most the companies realize it's a bad idea to sue media over objectively backed statements. ASRock blacklisted us as well, it seems, also because of our Z490 content. Same boat! We even told them we had good things to say about B550, but they stonewalled us. Some companies are too stuck in the past to realize that it's best for everyone to work together -- they'll forget about YEARS of good things that have been said after one critical review drops. It's absolutely insane.
@@GamersNexus Pretty funny, exact same story here about the B550 boards and their response, or lack of. Well done Asrock, I'm sure blacklisting Gamers Nexus and Hardware Unboxed will help boost their dwindling sales.
Gamers Nexus man that’s pathetic. R&D engineer here, it’s a huge slap in the face of our teams when this happens because what we want more than anything is feedback to make the best thing we can in the future...
@@Hardwareunboxed i've been wary of asrock products before, now i won't even bother. thanks.
MSI: could you remove "shady" off the title please?
could WE remove
we think that maybe it doesn't representative for the whole company
I'd like to share the video with a friend but... it comes off a bit negative
Can you change the name MSI to ASUS please
@@gunnar6674 Hahaha makes me think of that Cathy Newman interview with Jordan Peterson
This is the way to call out manufacturers. He had all his documentation and covered everything. Amazing job man. Wow
Scalping updates. . .
Done like a lawyer!
Bewared of MSI Spy's chip may be coming soon too.
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday.
@@creeplyjoes8828 wow! Xenophobia at its best. Given that GN has exposed many other tech corporates for dodgy practises including Newegg, Dell, HP and others, your comment is baseless!
"we'll let you keep the next GPU if you take this video down"
That's just straight up bribe.
It’s also admitting how bad the current one is if they say you can keep the next one over this one.
I wouldn't consider it bribe at that moment, it is still a false promise. They may never send another unit to the reviewer
No they will, reviews do matter, businesses are like this.
@@AdityaBangalore Well, in that case (they never actually want to or intend to pay), it borders with (the operative word is borders with) a fraud. A False promise (made with full knowledge that it is a false promise) that pushes you to do something you wouldn't do otherwise and the perpetrator profits based on your actions fueled by this false promise. So not a good thing no matter how we look at it :)
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. (if that's the correct proverb in English)
MSI: "Can you remove Ethics from the title? we don't want people to believe that's something we offer"
OOOOOH man, good one
You win comment section gold!
MSI go to hell you even over charge. , Change 1st.
I am laughing way to haard here, nice one.
Why u speak truth human
We don't do that here
one more legendary intro xD
btw thanks for your work with the lian li o11 dynamic xl def looking at a similiar if not same case for my next build that case is freaking epic
I NEED MORE SOLDIERS.
MY SOLDIERS.
A legendary der8auer has appeared!
Your Army awaits your command.....
@@dadjokes8963 I have that case in white. It's phenomenal. And, beautiful.
You know you're back here because of MSI scalping their own cards lmao
Truly a prescient video
Never hurts to go back and get a reminder why you never buy MSI
Oh yeah. This... this is an amazing level of scumminess.
Lol yup!
Macro Scalpers International - MSI
"Engineers typically can't talk to reviewers, they aren't media-trained and often say things that are **true**."
Holy *shit*
Yeah, imagine the profits they'd earn if consumer trust would be allowed to build up through engineers speaking the truth.
You could make millions that way... Long term.
Shots fired right.
That's basically all PR reps in every industry. I've been privy to this in the trade show side of things from CES to SEMA and the women they hire (very rarely would they hire men unless they held all kinds of training and experience) would know nothing about the brand or tech and just regurgitate what they were taught in their week long to one month long training on bullsh-tting the customer and are treated as if they belonged in the industry at the trade show they were hired for.
@jt thorsson I reckon this is why AMD is so successful, their CEO is a lady who iirc besides having a PhD in computer engineering (don't quote me on the specialisation) and worked on the PS3's processor.
She presumably knew all the jargon Jim Keller used to discuss and develop the Zen architecture, and that can really benefit the development process.
this is very true, they knew the products inside out, they are their "mothers", so to speak.
not those kind of ppl who make a living with their mouth (or fingers, in that sense)
This is the bravest, most articulate, well explained and meticulous piece I've ever seen across any journalistic medium. And all of this coming from a die-hard MSI fan who never knew any of this was going on. Bravo (pun intended) for the excellent work, GN and Steve. I've followed you for some time but now you've got me for life.
I stand beside you as a Disheartened MSI Fan 😯 who is Proud of G/N
It is honest and credible journalism that push the company to make better product, punlish bad conner cutting and BS marketing. At the end, it's we the customer and the business as a whole that benefits.
Agreed, real journalism!
I used to support MSI as well until I got burned by their "paid review" tactics and have since then sorted who I listen to when it comes to reviews and GN ranks in the top, and I guess the 70+ dislikes is MSI representatives...
I thought that MSI and asrock had the highest quality stuff. they kinda have good stuff but damnnn they are rude af
"Engineers are often not allowed to talk to media [...] they say things that are often true." The smirk when Steve says that is PC review comedy gold (a small niche, admittedly).
Anyway, keep fighting the good fight, and I guess I'll keep buying mod mats.
12:58 for reference, and that is absolute comedy :D
This video not only aged well, it has become a collectors item
I'm hopi g thier shirts do the same as I'm banking on it
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday. ...................xxxxD
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again
just like my 640
@@creeplyjoes8828 What does this have to do with "American freedom"? MSI is a Taiwan company.
"they don't have media training, they often say something that is... True."
Oooh boy, I felt that one deep in my soul. I've got nothing but love for all my compatriots that have to deal with the pressure and inconsistencies that go along with development, quality control, and maintenance.
If you say something publicly that's true and negative for the product, your competitors are going to drag you through the dirt until you're buried. Even if they have the same flaws. It's not fair to for the team.
If it's true everyone will find out eventually, engineers want a good product, the problem is always sales over promising and accountants trying to make cuts at the detriment of the product.
Holy crap I love this channel. Never change.
Didn't think I'd see you in the GN comment section! Hope to see another cover from you soon, man.
fancy seeing you here!! my two worlds colliding holy crap :P
Cobus! Did not expect to see you here!
Used to watch you when I was 15/6. Now 28. Holy shit dude. 👋🏻😂
MSI Scum....: D going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again very soon & going to put SPY Chip's on GPU to Spy us very soon......,,
I have to say, I really admire the way you stand up against this kind of immorality and that you choose to expose any and all such behavior. We need more people like you on planet Earth who choose to follow their own reasonable moral compass. You have earned my deep respect for that. Please keep up the good work! :-)
@@benjy117 Dude chill, the company may be foreign but the people working on it and doing this things are totally Americans or "western". Stop blaming foreigners for the things that are been doing here by "our people". This is a common practice for many companies here, in fact, what about not attacking people and instead attacking the bad practices and policies?...
@@benjy117 Attack them? excuse me but can you specify what you mean by that? It does sound pretty extreme even if you did not intend it. The problem is they are the manufacturers because we outsourced most production of silicon and electric components because we are to cheap to pay for the labour and in China nobody gives a fuck about workers rights. The western world is fucking its economy by outsourcing production to countrys where labour and resources are cheaper for a long time now. I mean what can you do as consumer if you want any kind of computation device ? There are no companies in this realm that aren't producing and manufacturing in China. And that's like this for most industries, at least here in western Europe. Contrary, jobs are cut because of more and more outsourcing to China. A good friend of mine works as a "Link" to the chinese Pruducers for Continental, a pretty big corporation and they laid off like 30% of workers in my location this year alone. All due to outsourcing more manufacturing to china because they make a shitload of money more this way. We cant stop this trend, the industries will not do something good for economy if it doesnt make them more money. Its sad but it is how it is and it wont stop. Products are designed here and produced where its at the lowest cost to produce them if i were in a position where i would be responsible for such a project i'd do the same, what choice do you have in a middleman position like my friend? Either you do it like they want and get the best price or you are out of your Job and good luck finding one in the same field after botching a big operation worth billions.
Edit: The company i mentioned issued a Statement that they are closing down Operations in Germany completely, first people are getting let of starting 2021, it will be more than 7000 People losing their Job. Pretty fucked up.
@Harry Beaver whats it then ? its a ball of shit thats rotating perpetually so we do not drown in shit?
Edit: Sorry for the rant, i was to high and drunk last night, even for my standards.
You can always rely on Gamers Nexus for impartial, factual, and honest review practices. The amount of work put in your research and your commitment to integrity are things I will always respect you for. Thanks for all you do!
Their products aren't even bad 99% of the time, this behavior is basically shooting themselves in the foot. They need to overhaul their PR department.
this. actually their products are still quite good, its their PR department that needs the great purge.
meh..... MSI has good ideas, but they try to save to many pennys.
same with thermaltake
.
EX..... my 990FXA-GD80 AM3+ mobo didnt have any LLC control (it was fixed, cant be adjusted) and actually INCREASED voltage when under load.
went from 1.48 (safe) to 1.55+ under load (given the load was prime 95, and in most games, it only went to 1.52 ish, which is "safe" as long as its cool (and i had a nh-d15, so it was fine)
.
it would have cost 10 cents to use a different bios chip with enough memory / features to have an adjustable LLC
ASUS, foxconn, biostar, ETC had LLC controls on their AM3 and AM3+ boards.... but MSI did not
.
MSIs VRM on that board.... despite being a "16 phase" iirc..... acted more like a 4 phase, and ran hot as hell
After buying these products over decades (since this company was known as "Microstar International", or really just "Microstar"), it's difficult to declare winners and losers, at least beyond the now mostly non-existent previous low-tier brands like PC-CHIPS and ECS. Asus consistently has the best reputation but other than them being the first company to specifically cater to competitive overclocking with boutique boards, I haven't seen much of a difference long term in the average quality of their products. That is, sometimes the reputation is deserved and other times it seems someone is asleep at the wheel; that goes with all of these companies. Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI have all been around since the mid-80s, and, from my perspective, they've been on a similar level taking the entire history into account. Biostar sticks out as a similarly aged company that is still around but not on the same level.
vesa hansa It’s always bad PR and Heads when a good thing looks very bad. Fools
This video alone will make me active steer customers away from this, This type of behavior is unacceptable. It is one thing to pull someone from review sample because you didn't like their opinion, like Steve said often that is temporary and short lived. However to actively sabotage or influence reviews is just unethical.
When you burn bridges by being honest, it's the industry that has a problem, not you.
Gee tell me about iT
sweet summer child
after few msi product.. i know it just weak company.. all about profit..
MSI: "Could you remove MSI from the title please..?"
“Can we replace the M, S, & I with I-B-M?”
@@NezD why?
@@SonofKalas22 they're implying that that is something MSI would ask, they themselves arent asking for it
@@TheHarleyEvans yeah. I got that after I posted lol
@@NezDhey leave bae IBM alone... they made good computers.... 30 years ago. Rip the IBM Thiccpad
I don't know how MSI's public relations/brand trust can get any worse!
MSI: Hold my beer. It's scalped for twice the MSRP.
one more legendary intro xD
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday. (Be caution of Spy's chip inside also, soon).......xxxZ
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again.....,....
The CEO died two months prior to this video being released.
"Fell" from the top storey of their building lol
Look what you've done, MSI: you've made Steve curse.
I can’t find the time stamp now! I thought I heard it and loved it.
11:20 lol
Last time I recall he did that was the hilarious Tom's article on the RTX launch. I replay his "What the fuck? Is this satire? Patrick, is this satire?" multiple times every time I rewatch that.
Gamers Nexus = 100% Integrity. And thats why we are here.
So true
just a quote/proof:
Gamers Nexus -- Der8auer & Steve: All the Problems with CES | Laziness, Lying, & Bad Products - ua-cam.com/video/1qNNddXGsvU/v-deo.htmlm53s
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL 11 :03 guess who was mentioned
Plus taking shit about deepcool is their middle name. Lol 😆
@Necronoxxx hello MSI representative. How's your day going?
@Necronoxxx is that satire?
I’m so happy to be a patron to support this kinda reporting. Thank you. It’s much appreciated.
Patreon and the store are a HUGE reason we can keep expanding our equipment/test practices and also forfeit ad money when we find a company to be in disagreement with our high requirements.
@@GamersNexus I wish that the shipping costs were not such a large percentage of the overall purchase price, as I would want more of the money to go to you, and not the shipper.
Dragon center not working anymore: Hello, Dragon center used to work but now i'm waiting for SDK installation. User scenario and mystic lights is missing. Also my motherboard RGB is stuck on the default rainbow = half the posts in the r/MSI_Gaming subreddit.
MSI coud't care less about dragon center, but it's for laptops. aaand it's in the utilities downloads for their B450 motherboards.
Use bloat standalone mystic light instead.
@@CosmicCleric The shipper is a separate small business that GN and Steve trust to do things right. That extra you pay for shipping supports a different family business that also does a lot to reduce plastic waste in their shipping.
@@supervillain3213 Apologies, but 47% of the total purchase price for shipping is too excessive to justify your rationalizations.
Edit: feel free to site other products that have a 50%ish shipping cost.
I ran a Computer store in the mid 90s, and we ran into this with companies. That was back when a 150 mb hard drive was $1500.00. I cant imagine what it is like now. Good luck to you. Love your channel.
The transparency and objectivity of GN is never in doubt. If there's one source I trust, it's you guys. This video is further evidence that GN are not "shills".
They will always be shills, but they're honest and what appears to be transparent and trustworthy shills.
The Compiler when did Jay do that?
2 of the most honest tech channels imo that point out the bad things also in products are Gamers Nexus and Hardware Unboxed.
They could be shilling for the competition! Im kidding of course. I don't think there is any company I have ever seen steve and his hair have universally good reviews on every product they touch. I am sure there are brands they consistently like more than others, but that would tell me more of those companies higher level of quality over bias from these guys. GN always seems pretty up front with their own procedures and protocols. .
How can you sat that when GN has been taking sponsorship and co-marketing deals from MSI for years?
So no more MSI review samples....
Nothing of value lost :)
No more overheating $250 boards. What a shame…
@@tcclaviger We know that because we've seen GN's reviews, it sucks that they'll have to source their own samples because consumers (especially those who are new to this hobby and just googling something for a review before purchasing it) still need to be informed.
@@superliljohn91 certainly true for some, others know from other sources. GN is great but should not be your only source of forming an opinion....
@@tcclaviger Agreed, which is why the more reviews (especially those that do in-depth testing/analysis) the better. Also the whole thing of don't judge on the brand, judge on the actual product (brand loyalty/avoidance).
"ask HQ why they are using the same MOSFETs on all boards instead" underrated 🔥🔥🔥
My MSI motherboards are graphics cards were usually crap. The MSI Ventus OP OC 2070 Super is an okay card though. I like my buddy's ASUS 2070 Super better though. Forget the model but it has a huge heat sink and stays in the low 60's under extreme stress. My Ventus hits 80 sometimes but that is more my case's fault. I have an NZXT 510.
@@dakoderii4221 I have the Titanium Motherboard an it is total garbage.. got it super cheap, but it wasn't worth it. My new Aorus Mainboard is sooo much better.
However I got the 5700XT Gaming X for relatively cheap. And while I think the MSRP for that card is way too high, I have to say it really is the beste 5700XT if you ignore the price. My Friend has the Nitro+ and it is really good too, but just a little more noisy.
So IMHO MSI is pretty hit and miss and that is not a good thing. I think Gigabyte for example are way more consistent IMHO that is what you want as a consumer.
Also so far it seems to me Gigabytes Marketing is more "fair" than MSI and ASUS.
@@zebarzebra My friend's old 4930k (Gigabyte MB) can game stable at 5.2GHZ but it's set to 4.5GHZ right now. Golden CPU and motherboard.
PR: what’s mosfet?
Let us not forget how they repurposed the same Twin Frozr design on Radeon GPUs.
"there's no we -- you were not here when I was making 180 dollars a year working every hour of my life to build this"
Brutal.
C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!!
Brilliant isn’t it? He’s so original and articulate.
Time stamp?
@@ShivaanshPrasann 16:01
"if you need to you can reach out to me"
Tech jesus doing gods work
I'm atheist, but i'm starting to believe in tech jesus. Love you tech jesus, our lord and savior.
@@Purjo92 _He is starting to believe_
Engineers are not allowed to talk to reviewers, "They say things that are often true" LOL
I once got my ass chewed for talking to a customer. I asked the boss if I was doing anything illegal telling the truth. I then told them they'd better fire my ass if they expected me to lie. I'm still here, and still irritating management
Lefty eh Keep fighting the good fight!
@@leftyeh6495 You must be a competent engineer.
@@leftyeh6495 you're doing the Lord's work
@@leftyeh6495 what company?
I remember the day I found your channel after browsing trough so much marketing/influencer bullshit videos, I was so glad, especially because your channel delivers extremely good, professional and unbiased content to this day and beyond
A killshot sequel for Nvidia would be the Netflix-worthy adaptation.
lol Netflix worthy.... you do realize many bigger companies have been doing the same strong arm tactics for ages.
@@gallyggg376 why do you feel the need to suck the joy out of people? 😂 go away.
MSI Company Souls had already been Highjack by CCP China. That is why MSI Keep on lying to the World & keep on using alot to Cheap component from china nowaday. (Be caution of Spy's chip inside also, soon)......,
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again......,,,...
What happened with Nvidia?
"Unlike MSI we actually have ethics"
Ooof.
That's a third degree burn
elaborate...
This is why I love GN
*ouch*
Burn, baby, burn!
Have bought 2x MSI GPU's in 5 years. Had no problems with them. Honestly they've been fantastic.
What I do have a problem with is bullying. No customer loyalty is worth that. Today it's the reviewers, tomorrow it's the customers. I think I'll look elsewhere for my next upgrade.
What im thinking tbh, but ima see if they fix it before i go somewhere else
And i was seriously considering spending about $1100 on an MSI GPU.... I’m gonna look elsewhere.
They are already bullying their customers with their warranty support.
When your MSI-branded mobo or GPU dies on you under warranty, just try to return it to a place of purchase or contact MSI support directly. It's a big issue, at least where I live. Even though I like their products, I refrain from buying or recomending them.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I remember a time, when the german print magazin "PCGames Hardware" wrote about Msi's Method to pimp the Test Sample Videocards by a modified "Press Bios" with higher specs then retail
hey stephen,
I just saw this and the wording on this is a bit negative towards our brand.
MSI Scum....: D going to OWNed by China CCP again soon & going to put SPY Chip's on GPU to Spy us very soon.
EV!!L MSI again Tag with China CCP(SPY.Chips Plus Scalping) again. We Should boycott them in USA now..................(Bad MSI)..........zD
@@creeplyjoes8828 bruh who tf are you, english is obviously not your native language and you keep going on about chinese spies in your comments and saying "we" should boycott in the USA. You've probably never even been to America lol
@@kwoni3337 he is trolling xD
I wrote a review on Amazon.com about MSI motherboard that I bought back in 2014. It was a fair review of the board and for my efforts I was threatened with a lawsuit if I did not "correct" my review. I told them to proceed with the lawsuit. That I found it funny that a huge company would care about one review of a product. My ability to review products on Amazon was removed for all products that I bought through Amazon. Amazon removed my review of the MSI motherboard. Oddly, several dozen others also highlighted the same issues I had with the same motherboard in their customer reviews. MSI's main claim was that since I returned the defective board, I could not review it. Amazon apparently agreed. No legal action was taken against me. (As of 2015, my ability to review products on Amazon was restored.)
That's an odd stance to take for Amazon. If you have experience with the product and returned it, people should know why. I have reviewed a few products I've had to return (a Gigabyte GPU and Dell Mixed Reality Headset come to mind immediately) and I centered my review sounds specifically why I had to return it.
Well I guess I'm never buying MSI motherboards ever.
@@FireFoxBancroft my MSI board sucks lol and just heard about what MSI is really like as a company. Screw MSI, never buying one of their products again.
@@yotoprules9361 what mobo you have?
@@deivytrajan msi z370 gaming plus.
First off, when a pcie wifi card is installed, the PC will not turn off. It just comes straight back on.
Second, the onboard audio stutters and crackles after a few hours. It's not the drivers.
Third, I bought a USB audio dac/amp to both increase audio quality and bypass the onboard audio. But the USB ports refuse to power it properly, with it glitching out and giving me not enough resources error on Windows. Works perfect, even on my laptop from 2003 (not even joking here, my laptop from 2003 functions better than my msi z370 gaming plus)
Although somehow I changed a bunch of stuff, and now it's working. It seems this exact combination of bios settings and this exact USB port I'm using on the front is allowing the dac/amp to work at least until I upgrade whenever ryzen 4000 is released.
Overall, this is what you'd expect from a £20 Chinese motherboard from Wish, not a £120 motherboard from a (once was) reputable company.
These problems should NOT exist even in budget products but ESPECIALLY when you start getting into the high end chipset. Admittedly the lower end of the z370 boards, but still, I only have an i5.
And before you ask, I've tried troubleshooting all of this and no one has been able to fix any of these issues. I'm on the latest bios from a about a month ago and it fixed literally nothing.
So now all i can see is a dragon burning bridges with knight snowflake doing battle with it while the rest of GN is playing heavy metal during the battle.
Still more power to you for sticking to your beliefs.
"knight snowflake doing battle with it while the rest of GN is playing heavy metal during the battle"
This is awesome.
Gamers Nexus i love your ceo
Can we get some fan art of that?
@@lazichicken1236 I second that! Mouse mat with headbanging tech Jesus, fire, and dragons!!!!!!
That's a t-shirt
Young Steve had so much patience.
But he has since ascended to the order of Hardware Jedi Master.
@@VANDYKEDAN Did his ascension come before or after his promotion to the title of "Tech Jesus"?
It's not only MSI it's every single company... But of course as you say it depends on the PR, MSI in Spain is better, there are some competitors that are way worse
Stop defending MSI just stop dude
@Ut1F70F Sin yeah im kot defending asus tho i thino that they product are shit The only brand that i like is EVGA
Giorno von maybe you didn’t clean the laptop fans?
@Ut1F70F Sin Laptops have their place, but more typically in the workplace or for school. Desktops and even mobile workstations are superior, of course, but they're also more expensive. Hobbyists, gamers, and more pc resource intensive professionals should steer clear of laptops if they can avoid it, but all others it's a valid option, albeit with tradeoffs.
Acer and Dell is pretty solid
MSI have to remember that they sell to almost all segments to the PC builder. One bad experience can mean that one person never buys MSI again. If this happens often enough, then MSI will do irreparable damage to themselves.
Short term gains and cover-ups are NEVER good bed-fellows.
This is a great point. I've been building since the 90s I generally buy a single brand (which I won't name so I can't be accused of shilling) despite how much the company does stuff that pisses me off simply because I've never had a bad part from them. Yet I've had defective or just poorly functioning parts from a lot of other companies (some of which no longer even exist) and it definitely scares you off certain brands. Building a whole computer, especially if you're taking time to cable manage, just to find out the motherboard is screwed and you have to return it is a monumental pain in the ass.
@@Weaver_Games Absolutely. I stuck with gigabyte mobo's for years because I love their custom boot logo's. This really personalises a PC . I know it's stupid, but it's a really nice touch. My customers love it!
But having one fail a week after building an entirely new personal PC... I can't say I'll buy one again.
Ironically I'm using an MSI board now.
Do you remember when MSI was new... they were absolute garbage. Now they're pretty good boards.
had an msi board once. am3 socket ... sweating thermal pads on the mosfets fried my fx 6300.. twice... >.> never msi since then edit: this problem > www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/5lrvzt/help_with_vrm_leaking_from_msi_970_gaming_am3_mobo/
@@undeath6010 Bloody hell that's a lot of leakage.
@@DJ-Daz the reddit link was an example. the two msi boards leakt just like that and fried the poor cpu and itself. yes it was just an 105€ mb. still i dont expect leaking pads to fry my cpu D:
MSI: “Noooooo you can’t show what we actually said, we try so hard to look good tho”
Just go back to the 90 and look on MSI they were not know for quality, now days they have got a bit better products but there still the same old crap i my eyes They need to do some thing with the management.
GN :"hahahaha upload button go clickkclickclick"
@@MrGhostLt true. I've never liked MSI. Always prefered Gigabyte or Asus. Never MSI or Biostar
MSI to GN: “Noooooo you can’t show what we actually said, we try so hard to look good tho”
GN to Thermaltake: "Your products suck"
Thermaltake to GN: "We know"
@@musticlas Never ASRock too.
I love "The engineers are blocked off because the don't have media training and THEY TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT THE PRODUCT." As an engineer myself this makes me smirk and nod.
Michael Dhalle project management office always wants to cut corners then have to try to shut up engineers about the cut corners
@@NoName-to5xl the world would be a much more straightforward place
less marketing and words more action
People don't buy things when you tell the truth, it's the consumer's fault because they don't want the truth.
@@roji556 lol that's not the consumers fault are you a moron? It's the liars fault when they lie
I started watching this channel for the in depth case reviews, and stay for the journalistic integrity. Great work all around people. The progression of this channel is evident. Keeps the hits coming, thank you.
I love how Steve just don't give a Frick about pissing off "Industry Partners" ... And I love it ... Don't ever stop. Most trusted tech youtuber EVER! ... going to preorder a mod mat now :)
Same
Despiser Despised one of those, huh?
"If you can't get a laptop undamaged to a reviewer, why should we trust that YOU, MSI, can deliver one to a customer?"
Damn I can feel the smell of the burns from here!
if you ship something from say Taiwan or China usually when it reach country they have no say in what transport company that are to deliver it.
specially if there is one main state operated mail transporter.... (welcome to Europe...)
and MSI like all manufactures also don't ship directly to customers, they ship to retailers and if broken underway it's not a customers problem unless it's from retailer to customer and then it's the retailers problem, so it's a bit trowing the torch at wrong person by GN just to make a cheap line...
not at defence at what MSI have being doing, but criticise where criticise is due.
@@brrebrresen1367 MSI said that it was most likely damaged during shipping and GN included that in the review. And... later on it became apparent that it was a common problem with the laptop. Yeah that quote might have been a bit harsh, but since he mentioned both the damage and MSI's claim he acted fairly. He also didn't mention in the review that MSI wanted him to remove the info about the damage.
So... that shipping quote is totally irrelevant IMO. If Steve had included the conversation with the MSI rep (including the above quote), then I would agree. Feel free to disagree though. :)
@@brrebrresen1367 It's not the fault of the delivery service at any stage if MSI simply doesn't have adequate packaging for their products.
MSI is fully aware of what it takes to get an undamaged product to a customer.
@@bwood6337 , have had 8mm plywood crates been broken to pieces but also gotten parts of glass perfectly delivered in an single layer of bubblewrap in an envelope...so what is "adequate" is up to debate...
but if it's a recurring problem it's worth mentioning when doing a review but then the reviewer also have to know if the package they received the review model in is the same as normal customers are getting or some extra fancy stuff like Asus and Gigabyte likes to use (and MSI for that matter, they are none better) and Nvidia absolutely loves for their review samples.
I can smell the burns from my overheating-even-though-it's-undervolted MSI laptop.
Is it just me or did Steve seem a little too comfortable digging holes and burying things in them?
He is a dog person, obviously.
im sure he has buried his thing in a hole a few times.
It certainly takes a lot of courage to criticize an advertising partner in public. But at some point the barrel is full. Enough is enough.
It's his secret garden. :3
This is not the first time...
As a consumer, I've always loved the products that I have bought from MSI. The products have always been reliable, and MSI was quick to fix any issues that I ran into (X99 big oof).
However, it's important to me that the companies I support do not resort to the tactics of a playground bully to try to strongarm reviewers into a glowing review, or getting rid of a slightly dull one.
I totally agree with GN here, a company's focus should be improving the product and, ultimately, learning from the issues that are encountered by the community. It is as if they do not think that the way they treat people will get back to us, the End User. That kind of low behavior can only color impressions a certain way.
I sincerely hope they can improve their relationship with reviewers, who, besides consumers, are their greatest asset. It is super sad to hear that this is, at all, industry standard.
If MSI or any other company watch this and read the comments, for the most part I and many of my friends in the pc building community will not buy a product if GN (and other trusted sites) post a review pointing out the flaws. No we don’t blindly follow GN but we trust them for honest no bs reviews so if your thinking of any further comeback on GN you Will lose a big part of your customer base.
Same well said!
Agreed, well said!
This comment puts more leverage on to deny review privileges to .
I personally only buy products that are reviewed by people who have in the past negatively reviewed a product, and are now reviewing the update to that product. Or the review is contrastive between products in a similar market space, and still includes negatives for the product. If there are no negatives, no data with methodology, I don't trust that the reviewer to have fully reviewed a product.
This video here, is a good review of how a deals with reviewers. It has negatives, and some datapoints and a little bit about methodology (harder to measure because we are dealing with wet-ware), which makes this more trustworthy in my eyes. This also makes me trust this to review other parts of 's products, as they seem to promise to have similar integrity in future reviews.
100% agreed.
what he said
12:40 when he says the engineers tell the truth XD I formerly worked at a high profile luxury dealership as an automotive technician. We were reminded, almost weekly, to, basically, shut up around clients. For me, I'm a talker. I have major issues haggling or telling a lie of any kind. It's just difficult! I mean, WHY LIE?? Especially when it's the client's money! I mean, basically, they pay my bills when they pay for service! But also I wish I could haggle because I'd be able to sell stuff at a higher price lol.
They don't want honesty because these companies want higher margins all over obviously. It's extremely damaging long term because smart customers thus get lost pretty fast. But they dont see nor care about this at all. Because there's plenty of normal customers in their mind. Double-spitting on ordinary people.
@@CYellowan I never understood this. Clearly REPEAT business comes only from people with a good experience. I refuse to this day to buy ASUS laptops because of one particularly shittily built one I had ten years ago... They'd have to come up with something truely special for me to forget how badly that laptop was designed. I just opt to go with brands that haven't disappointed me.
Yeah, as a prior ASM I get it, but to us it's the hours per RO, and making sells improves our bonus and your flat rate time as well. It always felt guilty selling that coolant flush, but it's just how dealerships are.
And yeah, no techs are allowed to talk to customers. That's a big rule in automotive. ASM sells service to customer, tech sells service to ASM. Everyone eats.
But- got out of that field a long time ago. Away from selling period. Better person because of it.
I would guess it is because the large majority of consumers/buyers are controlled more by emotion and lies rather than rational thought and honesty. Engineers would most likely be an exception in the role of the consumer as rational thinking and being aware of inner workings of products is a large part of their job and so could play a larger part in their lives.
The customer experience is for the most part an emotional thing. I mean there are websites comparing computer parts and cars down to the last detail (and even then they are used only by a small percentage of buyers), but you won't find anything comprehensive for say, household appliances or whatever.
An interesting example would be how a certain smartphone gets 4 to 5 stars on almost all review websites but on one site where only verified users post reviews it's down to 3 because it actually has serious technical problems. Which basically means all those other websites are unreliable and the reviews were probably bought.
Daniel Koontz A technician isn't an engineer. Your job IS to shut up and do as the books say. That's it.
Another fun thing I remember helping my friend fix his MSI laptop back in 2019, the GPU cooling fan in his laptop broke, and the reason for this was a design flaw in the laptop where it HAD to be set on a flat surface. He kept his laptop on a laptop cooler/riser to help keep it cool. How in the FUCK do you design a laptop so poorly you can't have a common helpful product added under the laptop, or it will break the fans. ALSO the tear down to get to the fans basically required a full tear-down to have the mobo out- which the tear-down for said laptop was so antagonistic I thought it was an apple product.
Ok Steve, I'm new to Patreon and recently decided to support HUB because I really love their neutrality and unbiased opinion on hw tech, I've followed some tech channels for a while but the ones I watch and follow the most include HUB, LTT and GN. I am now proud to be a patreon of your channel. This video shows your dedication and effort to properly inform your audience. I don't do this often and although HUB got my first Patreon spot GN is now part of the feed and that makes me feel like im actually kinda giving back (at least a little) for the quality content you all create which I know takes a lot of time, money, frustration, anger, patience, dedication, etc (i know list goes on forever). Keep up the great work and never change!
EDIT: This video was the final push towards that patreon sub.
PS: Best wishes from PR.
Sorry, who's HUB?
@@bcarr1122 Hardware Unboxed. They are every bit as technically competent as GN. Their journalistic profile is, imho, a little more well rounded than GN, but not as fun. I absolutely love it when Steve gives someone a good roasting, but I usually double check with HUB as well, because they tend to go a bit deeper in looking at the issue from as many angles (and sides of opinion) as possible. From what I understand, HUB also works with Builzoid on VRM stuff. Can't recommend them enough.
Lol patreons going ndown and gonna burn hard..
@Kleiner Helfer Not attacking you or defending Linus, but how is LTT biased? What biases do they have?
dude LTT is corrupt and compromised as hell lol, just because they say they aren't, doesn't mean they aren't
MSI: Makes the best midrange AM4 motherboards (especially the ridiculously popular B450 Tomahawk) and gains huge respect within the tech community for improving their X570 designs after they were criticised by reviewers.
Also MSI: Destroys their own reputation when they had one of the strongest positions in the market, to try to take down a handful of negative reviews (which existed alongside a generally heavily positive sentiment, and an expectation that they would be able to solve their problems like they did with their X570s).
They do degraded and ruined my $599 9900k to the point where I had to replace as LLC which was hidden lied in it's spec and overvolted it to death
Also, their CEO got pushed off from a very tall building.
Their boards are total shit i would rather punch myself in the face than use an MSI board.
@@timothygibney5656 MSI BIOS can be somewhat less intuitive to use, it isn't necessarily ''lied'', but many important detail that will affect eventual voltage input is not being put in front and center.
Stephen Gibb I’m loving my MSI board but I’ve only ever built 2 PC’s, what makes you dislike them so much? I’m genuinely asking because I intend on building more and would like to learn before making more decisions.
Can we just take a second to appreciate how GREAT of a techtuber community we have these days? GN, Hardware Unboxed and yes even Linus nowdays are trustworthy sources with actual ethics! This is extremely rare in our world today where journalism in most cases is simply undercover commercial or political propaganda. Both the big and the smaller guys (AdoredTV, TechYesCity or Joker productions for example) are right there to call out anything shady going on in the industry. It feels so great to have people you know you can trust to protect you to an extent from the corporate interests of big companies.
Agreed.
When wasn't LInus trustworthy?
Linus has always been thrustworthy i believe?
@@Yigitcanakkas Me too, but antony209494 said, "even Linus nowdays"
People like to say linus is biased, but it's only because hes become so successful.
How sad is it that the industry is so crooked that the natural assumption is that anyone who gets ahead must be crooked as well
Just wanted to come back and say, I was an assassin hired by MSI to off Mr. Burke, but unfortunately as Mr. Burke never leaves his studio, we were unable to get our own retaliation killshot off
This sounds like the CEO of a company i worked for when i first started in the I.T. industry who would, and this was a ongoing internal joke, "XXXXXX (the CEO) would rather spend a dollar to ignore a problem or cover warranties then to spend a dime to fix the problem" and it sounds like this is MSI's thinking as well. SAD
sadly a fairly common problem
@El Cactuar Heil Grammar!
Yep, you find that kind of short sighted behaviour everywhere.
Fixing requires an investment at first, but is in many cases the cheaper option as time passes. But people sadly still prefer to gamble and ignore problems until everything comes crashing down.
Pointy haired boss syndrome.
@@Sundara229 Yes, you are correct, it is not only less costly in the long run as well as potentially ruining the reputation of your company and or its products as well. Morale of the story is the spend that dime now and save a dollar (and your rep) later
this is exactly what i love about GN, it "i dont give a shit about what the emails say, if it's shitty, im gonna say its shitty. if its good, im gonna say its good." it is for this reason that i started watching this channel, because i knew that if you said it was a good product, i could trust it for me and more importantly, for those people who pay me to build systems for them. im currently running one of those MSI gaming X 1080 video cards, the little brother to the 1080ti that buildzoid reviewed very positively, and the reason ive held onto it is because i can solidly cement the review of the device. it's been a top shelf performer for me for several years, even with doing things like folding@home, which pushes 100% throttle all the time. based on the trend, i will probably steer clear of newer MSI products, unless GN shows them in a good light, because i have also seen several MSI items, especially in the laptop sector, that have been rather lackluster, especially when taking price into account. my wife is running an older 990FX chipset msi board while we save for her Ryzen upgrade, and it's been a bit of a pickle to run, whereas my beat-to-shit 990FX Sabertooth from Asus was a flawless performer since 2013, even being overclocked running 1.51 volts at the cpu the entire time of that board (which ended only a few months ago, when i built my 3950x rig). Ive been in the hardware game since the Pentium 3 came out, so over 20 years of system building experience, so i do have a few brands that i stick to like glue when it comes to building my own personal rigs. but i do often rely on the reviews of folks like GN, and Jayztwocents, Pauls Hardware, Bitwit, and the dropped items on Linus Tech Tips, when i go to recommend hardware to a friend or a customer. for all of this honesty and reliability, i thank GN and the other top Tech-Tubers for sticking to their guns and putting up honest reviews. One of the LTT crew just reviewed a prebuilt system recently and was rather disappointed in it, and they stated that, which i thought was really good. the suggestions on improvements were logical and attainable suggestions, and considering the cost of the item, if i were to build the same system, i would have done the exact things they suggested to improve on it. i feel that honest reviews are harder and harder to find in a lot of industries because money means so much these days, but im happy that the list of reviewers i follow have stuck to their guns and done everything they could to keep reviews honest and on a level playing field. keep up the good work!
990FX Sabertooth was such nice mainboard. Miss it.
the comment is great, but I could barely read through it. please consider using ENTER/RETURN button for splitting lines.
@@TechEpiphany Hey that's the motherboard I have in my office PC. Still going strong - it's not doing any heavy lifting like gaming or rendering, but still runs well. It's running Folding@Home on the GPU only, and seems to do that well.
Movie reviews and game reviews have in large part fallen victim to these kinds of scummy behavior, since it seems entertainment journalists are more afraid of not being invited to previews and get advance copies of the games. But just like for tech reviews, I hope integrity lasts over time, because it's not like I'm going to trust a reviewer who lies about what they like or even what's in the movie or game that they're reviewing.
Totally respect you all standing up for the "little" guy. These practices should not be hidden regardless of whatever consequences the manufactures attempt to threaten you with. Keep up the great work GN!
"MSI Deal with it. It's your writing that we're reading" ~Gamers Nexus
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again.........,,,
@@creeplyjoes8828 i don't want to alert you creeply but i saw some asian men in trenchcoats in front of your apartment last night. you should keep going
This is why this channel will keep growing. People want honesty, they are tired of bull crap.
Installed the MSI software to manage my GPU colors, it immediately installs a whole bunch of bloatware in additional the wanted software. Avoid Dragon Center.
You only need the Mystic light
lol it's called Dragon Center....geez
Same here, that crap managed to open 5 millions handles just for the lighting control and started slowing down my machine hard drive. Removed that crap instantly
Yup... it installs bunch of useless software and you can't even uninstall it e.g. LAN manager, even if you disable/uninstall it it comes back everytime. It's good to avoid it.
@Sean Price Russian developer Unwinder works on the Afterburner and RivaTuner Statistics server. It's based on his RivaTuner application that he created about 20 years ago. So MSI just pays him to have their logo on it.
We're not asking you to take down this video, but would you kindly mark it as unlisted? That'd really help us out over here.
-MSI PR
We're going to do our own internal testing and get back to you soon™.
And we are going to pay you... for the time you invested in this video, of course.
Our legal team is also looking into mascot abuse. If you take down this video immediately, we promise to not proceed however.
Well, I'm glad you spoke about that and in particular about the design oversight of the MSI laptop with the bottom cover grill not matching the cooler fan whatsoever. Mine has exactly that problem (an MSI GE72 from a few years back). When I opened it to clean and I noticed that I couldn't believe my eyes. I swore right then and there *never* to buy any MSI product ever again and I stuck to it. I used to consider them top notch but this (and a 980 ti that broke for no appearent reason) was the deal breaker. It doesn't surprise me that they're the kind of people who intimidate reviewers to cover up their decision-makers' failures. What a scummy corporation. I'll gladly pay 20 to 30% more any other brand for the same specs but they will never get my money again.
Bought a T-Shirt because of your incredibly thorough and technical videos, the crazy liquid nitrogen videos and your independent stance and honesty. Keep doing what you're doing, an invaluable and always entertaining service. I'll be saving up for a mod mat I think. Thank you.
“We don’t want to destroy MSI”
Title: *killshot*
Kill the bad behaviour
nuked from orbit lmao
MSI shot themselves though soooo
Steve shot and killed the muscleman but hasnt gone after the boss yet. Msi has been warned. C:
lonzo for mvp do you work for china?
16:58 can confirm, it's even fixed on the non-mesh version, got mine yesterday. i was gonna do the foam fix myself, but i didn't have to.
The beginning looks like the intro to the hardest deathcore music video ever
If Humanity's Last Breath kicked in when it went black, I would've lost my mind lol
130 MSI employees disliked this video.
up to 157. Thats actually kind of low IMO, when you consider how many MSI marketing employees just got thrown sh!t at (granted its deserved and necessary, but its still throwing sh!t).
More like 166 burner accounts XD
I don't think they're all MSI employees. But probably all of them are PR people. 💩
Went up to 190 disappointed MSI employees. Reporting on Aug 2, 12:49 AM .
Yes, I stay up late on Sats to watch tech vids.
193 @ 142 a.m. EST
Edit: seems to be slowing down
"It there anyway [sic] to not use such term like 'overprice' VRM on the title?"
Yes, it's simple. Don't use overpriced VRMs.
In the product
@@fajaradi1223 anyway
When Tech Jesus closes a door, he opens a window.
massive props to steve and gn as a whole for supporting smaller content creators and citing willingness to utilize their platform to ensure people don't get shafted
15:57 Steve at the urologist *"There is no wee"*
or a Scottish man at an adult-only convention
That was actually so real though "There is no 'we', you weren't here, when i was making 180$ in my first year, working every hour of my life to build what became this..." Huge respect to the GN team and ofc Tech Jesus
**Steve trying to explain to me why we can't play Wii Sports at his place.**
@@Drinkyoghurt Haha nice one too
Oui oui :D
WARNING: Engineers are untrained in propaganda practices. Do not allow engineers to publicly speak about products.
- Some sign on an office block somewhere at MSI
ua-cam.com/video/hNuu9CpdjIo/v-deo.html
Not just MSI. This is common in most industries. Technical/engineering staff tend to be honest to customers. PR Training has no affect on these people as you can't train the ethics out of an honest individual.
sometimes they say things that are true
never do that
@@CrouchingGoatHiddenDonkey This is absolutely the case for me at a large software company. We are not allowed to make any public statements as engineers.
@@CrouchingGoatHiddenDonkey not necessarily they are honest, but in Canada, if you want to keep the title of professional engineer, you are bound by ethics code which limits you from pulling deception on public, and if you did, you will lose you title.
"...Do you think we could change the title so it looks more like you're describing our black and grey motherboards as being a "killshot"? We know this will take your time and effort, but understand your morals... Oh I hope I don't leave this wallet-sized brown paper bag on the table right here when I leave... [wink]... But if I do, I will forget about it completely, so you may as well keep whatever is inside... Even if it is Pokemon cards... Or the money I was going to use to buy Pokemon cards........[wink]"
Big Corp: mafia style pushing around
PCMR: middle finger
"There is no oui"
*cries in French*
MrOracle lol
lol this is so stupid, have my upvote.
MrOracle!
"Unlike MSI, we actually have ethics." Damn, Steve. Burn those bridges! (Also, I bet the 8 dislikes so far are all from MSI employees!)
I doubt the average employee is supportive of what the higher ups do and think. I'm sure they're just as much on the receiving end of MSI's lack of ethics, as the customers are.
MSI is burning the bridges, GN is just shining a light on the arsonist
@jt thorsson unironically, yes
All of this "lack in ethics" comes from the higher ups, the bosses.
@@RFLCPTR Not all. I've worked in a few huge tech companies. They hire people who share their values as much as they can. If you don't share their values, you'll be pushed out in some way.
This is why whenever an embargo lifts and I have 30 notifications all on the same product, I watch GN first.
Yeah, want unbiased honest reviews - Nothing more and nothing less
true that. GN isn't perfect. Sometimes they go too slow on some points or repeat some things a few too many times but I can trust their methodology. Whereas some other guys like Hardware canuks provide great visuals but I can't always trust their reviews. For example they spoke so highly of the evolv mATX case. I bought it only to find the thermals are complete garbage. This was not mentioned in the review at all
MSI: "This video makes our brand look bad, could you just..."
Tech Jesus: "NO!"
Shut up!
[MSI hated Steve because he told them the truth.] Gal 4: 16
He is Undertaker and Jesus
@@rhoharane It's actually:
Shut up! ( _7 Ste. 31 GN_ ).
That is to say, " _on the 31st day of the 7th month the Holy Steve uttered these words (Gamer's Nexus translation)_ ". The text should also be red, but youtube doesn't allow that option.
Idk how long it takes you to do it but I really appreciate the timestamps on all the videos.
I have watched a couple of videos of this channel, but this right here made me subscribe to it.
Now in the future my first place to find a review will be here.
Integrity is a rarity! Thank you for being honest!
GN is great for super indepth reviews, many times too detailed for most people if anything haha
Same here. Watched a few videos but I really respect this and made me subscribe
When you content cop a whole company.
"Media reps are linebackers, stopping engineers talking to the press.
They don't have media training; they tend to say things that are true."
:D
Can't make mistakes if you have no tech - thank f&ck for engineers!
In a sense they are trying to focus on stopping a run up the middle or towards the edges and also stopping a pass over the top and keeping things in front of them
If you are a good company you should be hiring PR people who are engaged and passionate about your industry, who work just as hard as engineers merely in a different way. This might not be happening with MSI but think of all the examples you don’t hear about because they’re done the right thing.
I mean at some level is also for their protection. Internet is cool but is also a dark and negative place. If an engineer says something wrong or is perceived in a bad way he can have hell released on all his platforms in a blink. Many times this doesn't stop just on the person but also moves on to their close family who had social media. Public people sign for this and get use to it but there is a lot of people who are not ready, nor do they want to deal with this part of been public.
@@vinaly Just think of Apple being the face of battery throttling as a related example. Everybody does it for a good reason, but somebody at Apple decided to break the secret and nobody liked that. I personally didn't find the original quote to be offensive or even very surprising in any way, and although I don't like Apple as a company I think the public backlash was a little unfounded. I do like Apple's attempt at improving PR by including battery health monitoring information in the system settings.
@@PotatotheTroll Not sure if apple is the best example as i consider them exactly the opposite. They are pretty much in a crusade against repairers and plainly abusing the consumers with their over the top controlling and making excuses as to why is "necessary" but they have amazing PR and marketing, but in their case instead of talking to reviewers, check repairers and see how many of them have been attacked, thread with sues, have they stores close, and so on. There is a literal war on the right to repair been fight against apple
These tactis are disgusting and deep-rooted. Thank you for posting this GN. As someone who built a new PC a few months ago, I had bought the B450 Tomahawk MAX, which makes me feel disgusted for purchasing an MSI product, (which I'll never do again), but luckily it was one of their "good" products. I'll pass on purchasing any MSI product in the future if this continues.
This video reminds of when I use to review 10 years ago. Whenever I wrote negatively about a product, you could tell how good the manufacturers were based on their response. Gelid were the first to comment when I first started out because I didn't recommend their product over another, and asked me to change their conclusion. Being new to this and the website having only just started, I ended up rewording the conclusion as a compromise, although the results and observations hadn't changed. The next was the CoolIT Domino which although innovative at the time was just not very good. The sent me another sample to retest and waste my time on but when the results were no different, they didn't want us to publish the review. We did anyway. Their next cooler turned out much better... The Antec Kuhler 620 was another one I had issues with. Their plastic mounting clips and poor screw designs meant you could easily break them or warp your motherboard. I suggested they used spring loaded ones and metal brackets as part of the review. Again, they complained about the review but we left it up. Thankfully, they did actually go back and redesigned the mounting bracket and it was no longer an issue. AlpenFohn sent us their K2 prototype which I reviewed and found it to be slightly behind the top coolers. They read the review and instead of complaining sent us a proper retail sample a month later. That turned out much better and I use that cooler till this day. The ones that appreciate and take onboard your test results are the ones that made the whole job worthwhile, not that I got paid for any of it...
You always know Gamers Nexus will give it to you straight. It’s what keeps me coming back. They’re practically my tech “news channel” now. Keep up the awesome work guys, we really appreciate it!
I am shocked, shocked I say, to hear that marketing agents are lying weasels.
I avoided MSI in my last build because of this video and coverage. Thank you.
Well it looks like an overwhelmingly positive reception to this video. I'm glad you're speaking out, because this kind of behaviour is unacceptable.
When reviewers get cars to test for example, if they overheat or leak or whatever you don't hide it. At all. Why is this expected when it comes to expensive hardware?
An RTX 2080 ti costs a significant chunk of money, not as much as a car certainly, but a lot. If it was busy overheating (like the RX5700 XT models did from MSI and others) to omit it is a failure and a scandal.
MSI was a favorite brand of mine. Every brand makes mistakes. The bad reviews really hasn't put me off MSI at all. MSI has put me off MSI.
"Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself."
As an MSI fan, I agree with you. But, I'm not sure what other company to go with as ASUS has failed me both times that I bought their motherboards...
Dan The Car Man EVGA
@@metalkid2923 I do like the look of their stuff, but have never tried it, so it might be time to try something new.
Dan The Car Man I have a strict EVGA Build. They are unmatched in customer service, and they have the step up program. They build some of the best graphics cards. I also use a Z390 Dark motherboard and the thing is simply amazing. So easy to overclock and keep stability. I also love the 3 bios on it.
That’s really sad when an overall good company instead of taking some criticism seriously and improve a product tries to censor reviewers. The reviewers help you, MSi, to build better products. Swallow it and go engineering instead of doing marketing for low quality ware
Pride and Shame... this still exists in Asian culture but not in Murika. MSI takes too much pride in their legacy to accept the slightest criticism of their product. Now they get to deal with the shame that comes as a consequence of having too much pride.
It's nice to rewatch videos like this to remind what brands avoid to buy (eg when having to choose between two simmilar products from diff manufacturers)
"I just feel...." - who the hell writes like this in any business related email?
That's the point. Instead of keeping everything purely professional the PR guy is trying to act like there is a personal component to this relationship and posting something negative would hurt the relationship between them.
@@nanoflower1 or they know, if they word it less subjectively, they are asking for something on the edge of illegal objectively. it's not just trying to be 'friendly' sounding.
A true friend doesn't say things like that, they will tell you when ye messed up and try to help you correct it, they will also admit when they were wrong about something instead of casting blame elsewhere.
Someone who has been trained to influence people And win what is an emotional wrestling match. Using corporate as a not subtle threat. In the corporate world it works. The pressure of seeming to put themselves out there. They build it up step by step to get what they want.
@@nanoflower1
The "awwww" part was the best imo.
*MSI: WE should exclude it from the* *article.*
*GN: OH you speaking French now!?*
Partynextdoor
Thats a new one, I gotta remember that. Normally I roll my eyes at puns, but that one was really well executed.
What's the deal with french?
@@attractivegd9531 WE
@@attractivegd9531 "We" sounds similar to "Oui"
This video is one of the reasons you are the ONLY person on the entirety of UA-cam that I actually bought, and will again buy merch from.
I believe in what you do and I believe that working towards your financial independence was the best move you could have made.
You have the best, most informative/detailed and most unbiased reviews I have ever seen.
Your followers can tell how passionate you are (even through all your seriousness lol), not only about what you do, but how you put proper standards and ethics first.
Plus your merch is seriously awesome and I can't wait to get those giant mouse pads :D
I know right! GN shirts RULE! Don't forget our boi Kyle though. Screw with confidence shirt making fun of the verge is still the best tech shirt EVER. Steve even loves him, so.....
Actually!!! Wheres our Roast of Kyle from Bitwit!!?? Come on Steve...
Nevermind. Too busy donating to my favorite cause. Linus didn't even no about it. But we do. Thanks for being a cat person, and donating all your winnings too. True hero...
I knew you would smoke Jay (so did he). Loved his "not LTT" waterbottle with (shhh-gin and juice) but moreso your LN2 finish. True baller!!!
DerBauer is proud too...
I do have a MSI 3070 X Trio since it's the only GPU that was available at MSRP, and it's been great, no complaints. However this video is a reminder why no one should fanboy for any company. Just because I have an MSI GPU in my PC doesn't mean I can't absolutely hate and criticize them for their crappy conduct, which I am. It's saddening that I have to remind people to not be tech company fanboys but here we are. They get so attached to the products theyre buying that they go as far as to defend the company behind it no matter what they do just so their purchase feels... validated? Well news flash, it is validated if it's working great for you. The company behind it doesnt have to be perfect. No company is perfect. You should still call out companies on their bullshit like Steve did here.
"A lot of things they say are true"
That got an audible HAH out of me. Its like what Linus said about his Intel video. Corporate getting in the way is a shame
I remember that time when a reviewer was like "hey, this is terrible because x y and z, do you really want this published or not?" and the response was "do it, our marketing dept. needs to listen to the engineering dept. more."
Engineers are often not allowed to speak because they might cause damage by saying something that is going to be received otherwise than intended. The fact alone that reviewers don't get access to engineers is not negative at all and Steve even says this in the video. I am an engineer, if I work on one part of the product and I am asked about the product, I might unintentionally harm the product by saying something that is true, but not relevant to the review. For example - the reading head is capable of reading X megabytes per second. Reviewer comes out with bombshell proving through my interview that device Y can only read X megabytes per second. I worked on engineering the reading head, I didn't know they put 5 of them into the resulting device. So suddenly there is drama about something that isn't dramatic at all, just because some engineer didn't know to keep their mouth shut. Spokepersons have their legitimate place on the market.
@@emsicz True. In the ideal case spokespeople can help prevent that confusion.
But in some companies they're also used to just lie (often by omission).
Yep, hey Verlisify, what are you doing here. I thought you mostly upload Pokemon content.
“Killshot” and “Shady” nice one hehe
"Engineers say things that are true" : )
Can I use the mouse Pad as mod mat?
yes but the advertisement team
@@stevethea5250 no u can only use a very static carpet
@@Dacite6 why
Preambled with "they don't have media training" hahahah
friendship with MSI is over EVGA is now my new best friend
MSI Scum....: D ( alot of China Spy's working inside MSI. Going to Fully OWNed by China CCP again soon) Trying to Control all American Freedom again.....,
Takes out USB bootable windows 11 USB drive with all my personal account information stored on it in TPM 2.0 mode from laptop and desktop PC for resale after getting inspected for anything to need repairing before selling it on let go.