Ultimecia is Future Rinoa, proves: 1. Use The same weapon, shooting star 2. She used GF which had the same name as Squalls Ring he lent to Rinoa during Galbadian attack arc. You will be asked by the game to give that ring name. And that will be the name of the GF that ultimecia used to fight you in final battle 3. In Dissidia, when ultimecia meets squall, she said "shall we dance?" Referring to the first memory of how they met. 4. Rinoa & ultimecia both are sorcerers 5. Her castle is located in the flower field behind the orphans house. Which the place where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet again.
Also pay close attention to Rinoa's personality. Sure she has a huge crush on Squall but is she really a good person besides her love of Squall. She isn't like the other FF female protagonists she is much more selfish if you compare to Yuna and Dagger.
@@alexdorian336 The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ※ It's in the last part of this video. ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
What I think the game's ending means: TL;DR - Rinoa needs to die in space alone. Once she dies, Ultimecia dies with her. After defeating Ultimecia, Squall and his friends are separated. Squall believes that he can return to them if he calls out to them. However, he realizes that this is no longer possible and succumbs to his greatest fear - being abandoned and alone. When he sees the white feather falling from the sky, he is reminded of the promise he made to Rinoa. Rinoa is his way back; without her, he is lost at the end of time. Final Fantasy VIII's plot is a time loop/paradox. Recall that Squall gives Edea the idea to build SeeD and Garden when he ended up in the past. His past self, "young Squall," would later grow up to take part in the events of the game (Squall defeats Edea, Edea transfers her power to Rinoa, Rinoa frees Adel in space, Squall rescues Rinoa and defeats future Ultimecia, Ultimecia transfers her power to Matron, young Squall is raised by Matron and grows up to defeat Edea, etc.). This loop will continue forever, because young Squall does not have the benefit of knowledge or hindsight as the Squall trapped at the end of the paradox. He cannot go back in time to alter his decisions because he does not belong in that timeline (Matron: "Please return. You do not belong here.") The bizarre replays of Rinoa walking in the ending: Squall begins to see replays of when he first met Rinoa at the banquet in Balamb Garden; this is where the loop begins. Once he meets her at the party, the game's events will take place; you see them replay over and over (you see shots of Rinoa at the party being in frame, then wiped away - as if she is absent). Squall comes to realize that he is forever locked in an eternal battle with Ultimecia, and in this loop, Ultimecia can never truly die. Recall that the only way to truly ensure a sorceress is forever vanquished is for the sorceress to die with her powers. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, but their deaths are intertwined, and are also consequently what will end up saving the rest of the world. No matter what kind of action Squall takes in the game in an effort to save Rinoa, it will always end in the same result: replaying the time loop. In order to break this time loop, Squall must let Rinoa die in space alone (her life support runs out and her helmet shatters). If Squall decides not to save her after the destruction of the Moon Base, Rinoa dies with Ultimecia's powers in the vast emptiness of space, unable to transfer them to anyone, thus ending Ultimecia's existence. Squall can then return to the planet to defeat Seifer and a weakened Adel (who needed Rinoa's sorceress powers in order to become strong again), and will never have to experience time compression to rush into the future to defeat Ultimecia because she no longer exists - thus saving the world. Squall realizes this (if you recall him crying in the finale); in order to fully destroy Ultimecia, he must sacrifice the only person he truly loves - Rinoa. He must live the remainder of his life alone, broken, and grieving - knowing he abandoned Rinoa to die. The rest of the world will move on, celebrating the end of the succession of witches.
Since Ultimecia's final form emits the enemy effect while Ulti's body is dangling unconciously beneath it. My theory is that the "final form" is actually Hyne taking over her body completely to finish the time compression. Ultimecia being like a fusion of Rinoa and Hyne.
That makes a certain amount of sense actually. Explains why she’s so mysterious near the end of the battle with her dialogue. Well, except the “I am Ultimecia” part lol. Hyne is an interesting character.
@@Vereid hyne is actually Ultimecia itself. it was theoretically explained on this ^_^ ua-cam.com/video/3uChiPaaYzM/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Japanesegamesaremasterpieces.
"Ultimecia... a name that strike fear into any who hears it. Whose power I share... I am made from the dregs of her boundless magic... before her I am insignificant. "
This is further strong supporting evidence imo. It does seem clear the R=U. The man who worked on the game was really careless to make comment on the subtext of the story when it's clear he just didn't know.
Nerd time: odine, the weird professor you meet in esthar, designed a entire magic system for humans which is what the draw system in ff8 is. Monster enemies and sorceresses use inate magic. Thats why the casting is different.
It is 100% obvious the original intention was to hint Rinoa being Ultimecia, the only statement against this was 1) from a person who is not in charge of those decisions and 2) has been withdrawn by himself in the meantime. This isn´t even a debate according to me. Rinoa IS Ultimecia, period.
The podium scene where Ultmecia as Edea brings Rinoa to the stage says something about their new queen which at first seems like she is talking about herself as Edea but she brought Rinoa up there for a reason and the way she worded it was like she was talking in 3rd person.
@@zeaferjones1404 To sacrifice her as a part of the festivities, Ultimecia says this. Also in this theory she has attempted to kill her past self twice over. Three if you send her to garden and don't actually mess with the missile accuracy. She can't have been intending to use Rinoa directly beyond assisting with her own aims, or considered her to be important to save because she tries to kill her in this very scene, and then later on sees her abandoned to die in space. If Squall hadn't retrieved Rinoa from space, Ultimecia would've successfully killed herself in the past and she would cease to exist.
3:28 I think it Seifer was under the control of Ultimecia, that's why it shows both color. I mean it was shown pretty clearly that she used some mindspell on him in disc 1.
up until you showed Seifer, I was convinced it's because they all use "drawn" magic, that's why here is a circle and the blue lights. And the enemies don't have a circle, because their magic is not "drawn" or "junctioned". But Seifer must have magic drawn and junctioned. So WHY does he have blue and green lights? He must be the key to all of this. And, with the theory of Rinoa being the being attached to the very last boss, it makes sense that the sorceress in the end doesn't use the blue lights also, as Rinoa is junctioned to her.
As much as I absolutely love the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory, I could never bring myself to believe it. I wanted to, but I couldn't. It'd be awesome if it were true, though. However, I've always been open to the possibility that Ultimecia could be Squall and Rinoa's daughter or granddaughter. I know she lives generations in the future, but we don't know exactly how many generations, and I think the developers intentionally left that up to us to decide. As for Ultimecia's age, I don't think the developers even know that because it's irrelevant to the story, but she looks like she could be anywhere from 28 to 60. One thing I've picked up on was how Ultimecia talks - how all the Cs are replaced with Ks. My theory is that it might not just be her who talks like that. That might be how everybody talks in her time period. 100 years ago, people talked a lot differently than how we talk today, so 100 years from now, our descendants might be talking differently as well. That's my take on it anyway.
The K instead of C thing is just a localization gimmick because she has a "masculine" speech pattern in Japanese. They were trying to give her an accent that would sound harsh in the localization to kinda replicate that. Was pretty much dropped in Dissidia though.
Well just give y'all reminder. When ultimecia have beaten, she comes to the past (where Squall also there) and meet matron. Matron take her power (worry that one of children got instead) to let her died Matron, in the end turn as edea. When she got beaten, the power move to rinoa accidentally. Another you need to remember, This FF series is about "time-loop" concept. 1) Adult Squall from future tell matron about SEEDs and meet young Squall, after matron take ultimecia's power 2) matron ask cid to establish SEEDs 3) young Squall and the children join SEEDs when they grow up 4) matron turn as edea and got beaten 5) ultimecia got beaten 6) Squall failing to back to his current time and come to past and meet matron 7) back to: 1) So yeah, that "power" never disappear. it just circles around to the same people in different time So the plot hole is: There is possibility that after Rinoa, there was an event that caused her power to transfer to another person until it reached Ultimecia?
Nope, my friend. This is not time loop physically. Only one thing loop is the circle of Ultimecia's dead. She was born in the very far future, actually the power of Ultimecia needed to be freed because she cannot rest in peace with it, Ultimecia is just messing with the time stream and she has to pay for that ambition.
It's always been an interesting thought about them being the same person. I think they're definitely connected, but not the same person. Remember that Ultimecia has a very different speech pattern from Rinoa and I don't think it's because she had a stroke. Ultimecia spent time in Rinoa's body and would know her thoughts and feelings. Maybe they had an influence on her.
Great video! Ultimecia also has a rarely used attack called “Vacuum Wave” in her human form (basically the same attack animation as Edea when she joins your party, I have a video of it on my channel). Ultimecia has always been one of my fav villains alongside Kefka. I’m all for her getting more backstory and development.
WE ARE SO BACK. I've always loved R = U. I love this head cannon, but I don't know if what it's what the writers actually intended. But there's definitely something hidden and sprinkled throughout the game that maybe didn't get it made into the final script. And don't forget they gave a nod to this theory in Final Fantasy Mobius with Ultimicia dancing and pointing up just like rinoa did.
One line from the game debunked this theory. I can’t remember if it was Laguna or doctor odine but they said ultimecia lives so far in the future that none of them can technically exist including rinoa
They asked the director about this and while he said it wasn’t part of the script, he said one of the writers was famous for adding cryptic clues to plot twists and hidden secrets and that, while Rinoa officially isn’t Ultemecia, he could’ve secretly created his own story link without telling anyone.
Here is my theory taken from the montage at the end. Squall is stuck in a paradox where his alternate self is destined to fight Ultimecia forever (everything is replaying; him meeting Rinoa at the party, etc.) In order to break this paradox, Squall must not rescue Rinoa in space, and instead let her die in space. Ultimecia’s powers will die with her. Squall realizes this and a tear falls from his eye, as his worst fear of being truly alone is realized. If Rinoa dies in space, Ultimecia will not be able to reincarnate and transfer her powers back to Edea to retrigger the paradox. Adel is defeated, and no time compression.
I work in entertainment and closely with people who write scripts. When you get a lot of people involved and revisions, you end up losing payoffs for setups, think of it as plot holes. There are pieces of older versions of scripts that get left in. There may have been every intention of revealing that Rinoa was Ultimecia in the end but it wasn't able to be pulled off for whatever reason. All the "evidence" was left in the story because so much work had already been done so they gloss over it.
Thanks for comment. I often receive similar comments. There aren't many people in Japan who share this view, but people overseas seem to have more of that opinion. I find such opinions understandable and interesting❤️
i just figured the grand sorceress thing involved memories or a connection to the others that held the title or powers of that status before. its a common theme in a lot of fiction that high magical statuses where inherited with the knowledge of their use. avatars depiction of angs connection to the previous avatars would be the pop culture reference.
im so happy these details were already noticed by many. i've been thought of this already even from ps1 days ^_^ to add, rinoa's way of casting magic is nearly identical with Ultimecia's. the head movement, eyes closing then eventually opens before casting. Ultimecia just use both hands ^_^
4:01 !!! WHOA, applying this to Ultimecia is crazy because it implies further that Ultimecia is a witch combined with an ally (has to be either Rinoa or Edea post switch)
The blue effect is because they are using Para-magic to cast spells. The green effect is plain magic. Squall and co are using para-magic with GF Laguna and co are controlled by Squall and co, so they can use para magic Edea is controlled by Ultimecia so she uses paramagic (will explain later) Fujin and Rajin also uses GF (Pandemona) as they are Balamb students Edea is an Ice witch and maybe combined with Time with Ultimecia and she can cast Fire and Thunder. This is because of Paramagic. When you use Edea, you need to equip a GF so she can use para-magic and even Odin mentioned that she doesn’t have magic anymore. Ultimecia is a Time witch and uses Griever as her GF to able to cast other types of para-magic. Galbadia soldiers are using other type of system to use magic, maybe their swords or something, but they do not use a GF. About Seifer, that’s a good one, maybe he is using a combination of GF para-magic and something that Galbadia built for him. Edit: More evidence of this. When you use card, restore, revive, summon or any other ability from the GF, the blue effect also exists. So that means they use the blue effect to “call the GF” and use the ability.
I would say that this is the biggest proof for the hypothesis ever since it's a minute detail but one that can never be "just an accident", it has to be intentional beyond any reasonable doubt. Without the Rinoa-Artemisia, FF8 plot is kinda... shallow, and empty, it definetively feels like it's missing something, I already believed that when I was a kid, before the internet and this theory be famous. However, with the theory being canon, it makes FF8 a much deeper and complex game storywise and worldbuilding wise, endlessly tragic (literally) and the only FF which may or may not have a bad/uncertain ending. It is plausible this was the original intention, but scrapped due to it being way too complex and tragic: sure FF does go into more mature themes but the happy ending is mostly a given, the Rinoa-Artemisa puts the game in a position of it being too deep for its own good, they may have felt it could hurt the sales. This find is just incredible and I can't believe nobody has yet done a proper Riona-Artemisia revision theory in the light of this finding, anyways thanks a lot, this is an incredibly important "discovery".
Yeah remember whenever you Draw magic from monsters or enemies? There are blue circles swirling. That must be the blue light that is emitting whenever you cast a magic that is drawn or junctioned. It must be an indicator that these people or characters knows how to Junction, lore-wise.
Awesome. I thought it was gonna be about something I literally just noticed a few weeks ago in that Seifer's casting sound effect is ever so slightly different from the party's, and you end up blowing my mind by pointing out the green particle effects were there when I never noticed at all. I'ma check for myself later, just to be sure, but that's awesome. Also, this is just further proof of what we already knew-R=U. But there is ONE other thing you could add: Wedge actually has the blue particle effects when he casts magic and as far as I know is the only enemy in the game to do so.
Great video, its possibily the blue aura is an effect of junction with G.F? I don´t know if Raijin had a G.F but Fujin has Pandemona, Edea has Alexander and Ultimecia has Griever. The case of Seifer is more misterous. It´s probably have a junction with G.F and also have a junction with Ultimecia(Hyne) What do you think?
Its kind of obvious like why would Ultimecia have Greiver of all GFs randomly, they didn't have you name it for fun then later have Ultimecia use it without meaning anything
It's because she can read and extract information from their minds so Ultimecia took the image of griever directly from Squall's thoughts as this symbol of strength. It had nothing to do with the ring itself meaning anything to Ultimecia, it doesn't, and everything to do with what the symbol of griever represented to Squall personally, the Japanese version of the game is a lot clearer than the english version about this.
@@alexeychubarov5875 How so? People are mistakenly attributing sentimental attachment to Ultimecia’s summoning of Griever where there is none. I am saying the Japanese version of ff8 makes it much clearer than the English version does that this is incorrect, the sentimental attachment is on Squall’s part. Ultimecia drew Griever directly from Squall’s mind where he’s this symbol of strength and then forced him to fight it. It is a psychological tactic she was attempting to wield in order to defeat him; in essence making him fight the very symbol of ultimate strength and courage as imagined within his own mind. Not because she has any attachment to Griever. Since she can draw things from their minds, such as stocked spells you have in game, etc, she is doing this very thing. Harnessing the information about Griever from Squall’s mind and summoning it into being in order to mess with him. Just like she brought the stone statues to life at the end of disc 1.
Sorceress Ultimecia simply hijacks Rinoa's form just like she hijacked Edea's form. I thought that much was always obvious. The different nods are all completely intentional but Ultimecia herself is not Rinoa. Rinoa's will and her heart and soul are not the same as Ultimecia's. It is skin deep. This would be why she has the same sound effect as Seifer, an ally turned enemy.
Square Enix has officially and repeatedly stated that Ultemecia is NOT Rinoa. They have stated that Ultemecia’s single motivation was that she didn’t want don’t to die. They also reminded fans that Ultemecia is from the far future and that witches do NOT have extended life spans.
This hypothesis has not been rejected. The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ※It's at the last part of this video ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html ↑↑↑ Check out this video starting at about 51 minutes and 48 seconds. It seems that not many people overseas know about this official Square Enix video.
Thanks. However, the year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ※It's at the last part of this video ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
Unrelated but I'd love to see you compare FF8 to The Wizard of Oz because kitase admitted FF8s fantasy side was based on Oz in an interview for the remaster. Esther was supposed to be green and the witches are like the wicked witches. So I wonder if Oz has anything that could be a clue to the story of FF8 or even the R=U theory. Like maybe Rinoa is Glinda the Good Witch? Idk.
Pretty solid theory! My headcanon, or rewrite, is that Ultimecia is Squall and Rinoa's daughter who inherited Rinoa's sorceress powers when she passed away later in life. How she would know about Griever is that Rinoa would make up bedtime stories for her as a child to ease her worry over Squall being away all the time. Griever would, essentially, just be Squall anthropomorphized. Through those subconscious memories, she can conjure Griever. Griever, still being a GF, (and later her only companion) still had the amnesia effect on her causing her to forget many things from her past - like her desire to use time compression not to destroy and merge all time together, but to be reunited with her parents. But due to the side effect of summoning Griever in her lonliness, she forgotten about her original plans to be reunited with Squall and Rinoa and was left with only anger and frustration that turned into malice for all things. It's admittedly a little dicey of a theory/ rewrite with room for plotholes, but I like it overall. I think it's even more tragic than Rinoa simply turning evil later.
These are just my thoughts and not specifically saying anything in regards to this video. But- Rinoa is Rinoa and Ultimecia is Ultimecia. It's as simple as that. This was even debunked by Kitase and when he gave some credence to the idea that it could be possible by saying he doesn't know what Nomura and Nojima had in mind when they plotted her character, even that doesn't actually work. If you read any Nomura and Nojima interview, you know they'd be rolling with it if only to mess around. If they were intending people to make that connection, they would absolutely be saying something about it in a "yeah, we definitely want people to think that" sort of way, even if they never confirm it. Or hell, if it was something intended it would have absolutely been in the Ultimanias. Squall being Laguna's son is confirmed in one of the Ultimanias. And they even go further into things that they wanted to do with the game. All the "evidence" over the years has largely been evidence that tends to ignore what actually is shown in the game and in the lore and what the themes of the game are actually intended to be, as well as ignoring that a lot of subtext was cut from the English version because they translated directly from the game text and not from a script. As one person I was read put it, the R = U theory was always about putting in a tragic story element just add more pathos, no matter how much it doesn't fit with the lore. How does Rinoa live for many generations after the events of the game? Because. Why does Rinoa decide to do these things knowing she was there and saw what the outcome of those actions were. "Well maybe she forgot". Why would Ultimecia risk leaving Rinoa to die in space when she needs Rinoa to live so that she can become Ultimecia. And she knows that it's inevitable that she will be saved but somehow doesn't know that she will be defeated once she does Time Compression. When the answer is just "well she knows because of x but still can't change her fate" it just becomes circular reasoning that doesn't fit because it just raises more questions. That's what I despise about the R = U theory, it doesn't solve the puzzle because it's a piece that doesn't fit. And the mental gymnastics I've seen over the years to justify it just makes me really annoyed.
The answer to all those questions is "the longest you use GF the more you forget". So the theory behind that may be that Rinoa heartbroken lost her mind. In order to wait more for Squall and prolong her life uses more magic=GF. That way not only is she "crazy" but also forgets. At some point she just wants to go back without even knowing the reason why. She's driven by heart alone. No consciousness comes into play. She wants to achieve the unachievable and she is willing to beat anyone who tries to stop her. That includes herself. She doesn't even remember who she was and how she ended up like this. As far as the story goes it's up to the player to decide if the theory stands or not. There are clues about both those cases it's up to anyone to decide which side he is on. IMO Rinoa was supposed to be Ultimecia but for whatever reason the creators ultimately decided to pull back and that explains the reason it wasn't included in ultimania.
@Bebekosa Or, as Kitase says, no it wasn't ever supposed to be that way and you guys are just overthinking something that's not there. And the GF thing doesn't make sense because Rinoa probably wouldn't be fighting long term with them once the day is saved, since she admits she doesn't want to fight and she doesn't want to use her sorceress powers either. And aside from the ending, there's no instance where Rinoa reconciles using those powers. So it's likely that, the firet opportunity she gets to get rid of them, she'll take it. No, Rinoa is not Ultimecia and she was never meant to be, Kitase put the kibash on it and if it were ever meant to be a thing, it would have been revealed by now.
I barely understood any English/Japanese when I played this as a kid, and even then I came to the conclusion that R=U just like what every kid at my school thought as well (ending scene explained it very clearly without saying a word), I've only learned that it was a "theory" when we had access to the internet years later, I've played this game around 40 times since and learned English and a bit of Japanese because of it and I always came to the same conclusion, there is literally no question that R=U
Wasnt it already confirmed Rinoa and Ultimecia arent the same person? I know if there was a remake square might play w the idea of Squall is dead but i remember seeing how it was a hard no for Rinoa and Ultimecia
@JapaneseGames007 Yoshinori Kitase gave an interview and denied the theory. He said even in a remake they probably wouldn't incorporate the idea. He goes on to say that Rinoa and Ultimecia are both witches so they are similar but they aren't thr same person
Kitase has since retracted his statement denying this hypothesis. I've also never heard him mention the FF8 remake in that way. If you know where this information came from, please let me know.
I don't think it proves Ultimecia is Rinoa but it may hint that Ultimecia didn't want to be enemies or felt hostility to the party members. At least at the beginning. Then in her final form she feels hostile towards the party members.
I don't want to be a buzzkill, but unfortunately the difference isn't enemy vs ally, but monster vs characters, and yes this means the soldiers, witches and other mass produced humanoid enemies also count as monsters. Think of it as the ones that use the blue effect were made in a character creator and can do anything the main cast can if you replaced their models, while the monster type who use the green effect are made for the sole purpose of being an enemy and only have their specific actions implemented, just like how you couldn't climb a ladder, sit on a chair or switch weapons if you replaced your character with lets say a dragon. Just think of the mass produced humanoid enemies as human shaped dragons. But if a purely technical explanation doesn't satisfy you, then how about we mix a bit of lore into it: Why is it that the blue effect only appears when Ultimecia is in her base/character form? Wouldn't it make sense that her monster form also had the blue effect? Still, I love the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory, so really I hope that if they ever remake the game (which I want more than any other FF content) they'll make it canon. Hell, it wouldn't be any crazier than what they did with the 7 remake.
Then if it's technical why does Seifer have both? Why does Ultimecia not only have one type if it wasn't intended? It's only in her 1st form because it's the most similar form to what's left of Rinoa.
As you can see in this video, the director（Kitase） who denied this hypothesis has since retracted his statement. ua-cam.com/video/Mf1Kc7D5ANE/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 I am aware that he retracted his statement, because of fan backlash. He says in the interview here that "someone may have added in the essence of this idea" specifically pointing to Nojima since he's known for doing that. They definitely seem to want to leave the possibility open for a future retcon, which I'm all for. But this idea that they were the same person "was not present in the final draft of the scenario" as he says here.
I've heard the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory before, but for some reason, it never quite "clicks" with me. I'm not sure why that is. So instead, I'll end on a positive note, even if it is unrelated: It would be awesome to see a fleshed-out prequel starring Laguna that culminates in his fight against Adel and rewards the players with some answers.
Can’t make a case for Rinoa-Ultimecia relation when you also show other examples of non-allies having the same allied casting effect. It would be more plausible it signifies casting magic thru junctioning GF or casting with lack thereof.
Very interesting. Perhaps the answer lies by answering the question from which perspective "Enemy" and "Ally" is perceived - is it Squall's? Is it the group as a whole? Another theory: I noticed you had Rinoa in your party in the last fight for both forms of Ultimecia. First form blue light: Because Rinoa in your party subconsciously sees herself in Ultimecia- why being hostile towards yourself? Final form Green Light: Magical Hyne seeing Rinoa as enemy, the bond to Rinoa has been lost.
A bit of a stretch, but would you have any ideas as to what happens to Norg? If you return to his pod in Balamb's basement, it looks like he broke out of it
I feel like this may have something more to do with GFs or junctioning than something as confusing as allies vs. intended allies vs. enemies. It's an interesting note though.
I interpret it as a graphical f'up. The people you mention that have the combination can also have a GF drawn from them. I think at one time you could do the same thing for Ulticima, but it was changed or something. Anyway there isn't enough to prove anything besides a concept from the room floor.
Very interesting. I definitely never would have noticed that myself. Still, I think there's room to assume it may have just been an oversight by the developers. Because when you think about it, Ultimecia's first form plays very closely to the two times you fight Edea (they even use similar move sets), so it's possible they just recycled the same general enemy programming from those fights and swapped the character model, but forgot to change that spellcasting effect when they were done. I think that's a pretty plausible explanation.
I thought the blue light comes from magic users who are not natural to it like humans that junctioned a gf to themselves in order to be able to use the magic. Contrary to monsters that are in some way naturaly using magic
Squall die in Disk 1 being stabbed by Edea ice spear. Disk 2 and Disk 3 basically Squall "last couple of sec" before totally died, life flashing before his eyes on his dream and hope, being Rinoa boyfriend, best seeD, etc. Basically being the hero. Thats why when you see Squall again on disc 2, he's an unwounded prisoner despite those massive ice spear from Edea. On top of that, disc 2 onwards are starting to become more and more imaginary. They'll encounter red talking lion creatures, a bizarre race of alien-like humanoids and a variety of other odd plot points that just seem to fall into place. It's an almost ethereal realization.
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ※It's at the end of this video. ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 woaah it seems like He retracted his statement and stays neutral on the idea to make the hype alive so that if its actually becoming so big they will use the opportunity to expand the story into that area and make more money out of it 🤣 as expected of VII remake producer
This hypothesis has not been rejected. The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ※It's at the last part of this video ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 Yeah, but once something has been debunked once, it's hard to believe them when they decide to backpedal, because we don't know when he'll inevitably change his mind on the issue again. This is especially true when you're talking about the person who is the master of the concept of the 'Unreliable Narrator'. Bear in mind, this is the same guy that said the end of the original FFVII 500 years later was a world devoid of humans, and that was canon in their minds when making FFVIIR. But now with the second game in that trilogy, it's looking obvious that this was a multiverse concept and what he said might not have been true at all. If Kitase's name is on a project, you can't always trust what you see at face value, and you can't always believe everything he says, because he is known for misleading audiences for the sake of dramatic effect. There is a not-zero chance that FFVIII will be remade at some point in the future.
Well, in the end, Square Enix hasn't officially confirmed or denied it, so as you say, fans will just have to wait for the answer to come out in a new "remake" or other work.
@@JapaneseGames007 Sorry about all of the comments in a row. UA-cam was glitching and the comments weren't posting. I went ahead and got rid of all the repeats.
They arent the same though. Rinoa and Ultimecia are nothing alike, personality, any of that. The experiences ultimecia went through Rinoa has not gone through. These experiences are what made ultimecia. Since Rinoa was not influenced by these events and they will never come to pass. She will never be ultimecia. Also if we go with the amnesia from gfs idea, the moment she loses important memories that would influence who she is and differs from Rinoa, she becomes her own person entirely. Like if i lost all my memories and started acting differently. The person i was is gone and replaced with the new personality and experiences i gain from my amnesia forward. Am i saying Rinoa cant become her? Yes and no. Our Rinoa cannot be ultimecia it just isnt possible cause the outcome of us winning is inevitable. Maybe if there are alternate timelines and she somehow jumped into our timeline. But why would she jump ship to our timeline? She can only exist in one where squall dies which would only happen in a timeline in which she already exists. Her safest bet is to stay in her timeline. (The legendary seed is already dead) Also if squall dying to ultimecia/being lost to time only happens if she tried s to compress time. Then she will stop existing outright. Remember in our timeline squall does not fail or die. Which means rinoa will never become ultimecia. Unless squall dies elsewhere. Ultimecia would have to be a completely seperate Rinoa with the power to move into a parallel timeline just to off herself cause it makes not sense to move to a dangerous location where your enemy exists.
Come to think of it, I will voiceover your videos if you like my voice. Feel free to check out a recent episode of my Elden Ring let's play for a sample. Best of luck to you and thanks for the content. 🌠
Are people still harping on about this, when the original creator said no, Rinoa is Not Ultimecia, yet people will just go full denial mode to validate their theories?
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ※It's at the end of this video. ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
although i wanted this to be true, but one big flaw about this is that, the blue light can simply just be an effect for normal human characters by design, for both enemies and and allies , and green lights is for everything/everyone else that isn't human or in the normal human size form. that explains why edea, raijin and fujin also have blue lights as enemy. UNLESS you can find examples that show non human size characters showing blue lights or human characters using JUST green lights. otherwise i can't agree with your hypothesis. thank you for providing some new insights to this game after like.. 25 years. . but i think this hypothesis might be reaching.
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ※It's at the last part of this video ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
Square Enix has neither outright confirmed nor denied this hypothesis. The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement. If you're interested, check out the last part of this video. ※It's at the end of this video. ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
It's just a coding thing. Player characters get the blue, NPC's get the green. Seifer as the boss had his model ported from the player one and modified, then the player aura wasn't removed. Meanwhile Edea was playable and Ultimecia was a copy paste of her. No lore implications.
there are players expecting remake of this game but i´d rather they didn´t make it, since they are stuck in their pointless struggle for better graphics i´m positive they´d end up with another fiasco like ff7 remake.
This hypothesis has not been rejected. The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement in an official Square Enix video. If you're interested, please watch the end of this video. ・It's at the last part of this video ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html （It starts at about 51 minutes and 48 seconds into this video.）
@@JapaneseGames007 Well crap, he retracted ua-cam.com/video/k8asSQorSng/v-deo.html fuck i hate when they do that, i watched the interview he mentioned there and in there he said that theory wasn't true so i thought "well, that's it".
Either way, this hypothesis can't be confirmed or denied at present. I think it's good to exchange opinions, but I think it's stupid to argue about who's right.
FF8 deserves a remake more than any other game in the series. There was so much unfinished and unexplored due to the rushed release of the game.
I agree, but it seems like a remake of FF8 would be quite difficult to make😭
@@JapaneseGames007 why??
It's hard to explain, but the simple answer is that Square Enix isn't keen on it😭
I'd love it if they could, but they'd probably ruin it
Who said it had a rushed release? The theory doesn't implicate the game had a large amount of unfinished content.
Ultimecia is Future Rinoa, proves:
1. Use The same weapon, shooting star
2. She used GF which had the same name as Squalls Ring he lent to Rinoa during Galbadian attack arc. You will be asked by the game to give that ring name. And that will be the name of the GF that ultimecia used to fight you in final battle
3. In Dissidia, when ultimecia meets squall, she said "shall we dance?" Referring to the first memory of how they met.
4. Rinoa & ultimecia both are sorcerers
5. Her castle is located in the flower field behind the orphans house. Which the place where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet again.
junction GF eats away memories, she forgot everyone after years with Griever.
Also pay close attention to Rinoa's personality. Sure she has a huge crush on Squall but is she really a good person besides her love of Squall. She isn't like the other FF female protagonists she is much more selfish if you compare to Yuna and Dagger.
This is why we need remake of this game, make it completely full version this time sadly square Enix prefer doing FF9
Proof that she is not: Yoshinori Kitase said she is not. Still it was an interesting theory for a few years though.
@@alexdorian336
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
※ It's in the last part of this video.
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
I love FF8 but Ultemecia being Rinoa who didn't get therapy makes the story way more interesting.
At this point, R=U is canon for me. I can’t see it any other way!
It is possible that Ultemecia is Rinoa but from the future. Thus defeating her is way more tragic.
This is top tier theory crafting I can't believe we missed it all these years!
WOAH!
All my years playing this game, I've never focused on the color of casting detail.
I'm always excited to see videos like this come around!
What I think the game's ending means:
TL;DR - Rinoa needs to die in space alone. Once she dies, Ultimecia dies with her.
After defeating Ultimecia, Squall and his friends are separated. Squall believes that he can return to them if he calls out to them. However, he realizes that this is no longer possible and succumbs to his greatest fear - being abandoned and alone. When he sees the white feather falling from the sky, he is reminded of the promise he made to Rinoa. Rinoa is his way back; without her, he is lost at the end of time.
Final Fantasy VIII's plot is a time loop/paradox. Recall that Squall gives Edea the idea to build SeeD and Garden when he ended up in the past. His past self, "young Squall," would later grow up to take part in the events of the game (Squall defeats Edea, Edea transfers her power to Rinoa, Rinoa frees Adel in space, Squall rescues Rinoa and defeats future Ultimecia, Ultimecia transfers her power to Matron, young Squall is raised by Matron and grows up to defeat Edea, etc.).
This loop will continue forever, because young Squall does not have the benefit of knowledge or hindsight as the Squall trapped at the end of the paradox. He cannot go back in time to alter his decisions because he does not belong in that timeline (Matron: "Please return. You do not belong here.")
The bizarre replays of Rinoa walking in the ending: Squall begins to see replays of when he first met Rinoa at the banquet in Balamb Garden; this is where the loop begins. Once he meets her at the party, the game's events will take place; you see them replay over and over (you see shots of Rinoa at the party being in frame, then wiped away - as if she is absent). Squall comes to realize that he is forever locked in an eternal battle with Ultimecia, and in this loop, Ultimecia can never truly die. Recall that the only way to truly ensure a sorceress is forever vanquished is for the sorceress to die with her powers. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, but their deaths are intertwined, and are also consequently what will end up saving the rest of the world.
No matter what kind of action Squall takes in the game in an effort to save Rinoa, it will always end in the same result: replaying the time loop.
In order to break this time loop, Squall must let Rinoa die in space alone (her life support runs out and her helmet shatters). If Squall decides not to save her after the destruction of the Moon Base, Rinoa dies with Ultimecia's powers in the vast emptiness of space, unable to transfer them to anyone, thus ending Ultimecia's existence. Squall can then return to the planet to defeat Seifer and a weakened Adel (who needed Rinoa's sorceress powers in order to become strong again), and will never have to experience time compression to rush into the future to defeat Ultimecia because she no longer exists - thus saving the world.
Squall realizes this (if you recall him crying in the finale); in order to fully destroy Ultimecia, he must sacrifice the only person he truly loves - Rinoa. He must live the remainder of his life alone, broken, and grieving - knowing he abandoned Rinoa to die. The rest of the world will move on, celebrating the end of the succession of witches.
Your theory helps prove Ultimecia is Rinoa lol
I'm very pleased that you use the correct term: "hypothesis" instead of theory.
The ballroom at the start of the game looks very similar to the place where you fight Ultimecia
Since Ultimecia's final form emits the enemy effect while Ulti's body is dangling unconciously beneath it.
My theory is that the "final form" is actually Hyne taking over her body completely to finish the time compression.
Ultimecia being like a fusion of Rinoa and Hyne.
That makes a certain amount of sense actually. Explains why she’s so mysterious near the end of the battle with her dialogue.
Well, except the “I am Ultimecia” part lol.
Hyne is an interesting character.
@@Vereid hyne is actually Ultimecia itself. it was theoretically explained on this ^_^
ua-cam.com/video/3uChiPaaYzM/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Japanesegamesaremasterpieces.
I concluded the same thing. Did you read the monologue she speaks in Mobius?
"Ultimecia... a name that strike fear into any who hears it. Whose power I share... I am made from the dregs of her boundless magic... before her I am insignificant. "
@WheatDos I've speculated the same.
This is further strong supporting evidence imo. It does seem clear the R=U.
The man who worked on the game was really careless to make comment on the subtext of the story when it's clear he just didn't know.
top content and great attention to detail.
FF8 needs a Remake so badly, i really hope after 9 which is basically confirmed via leaks we get a 8 remake
❤️❤️❤️
So many details in this game, nice find! Ultimecia cast animation kinda looks like a hug, though that's probably reading too much into it.
rinoa's way of casting magic is nearly identical with Ultimecia's. Ultimecia just use both hands 😊
Damn, to think that I would never notice that despite having played FF8 for countless hours, crazy.
FF8 is deep👍
Nerd time: odine, the weird professor you meet in esthar, designed a entire magic system for humans which is what the draw system in ff8 is. Monster enemies and sorceresses use inate magic. Thats why the casting is different.
It is 100% obvious the original intention was to hint Rinoa being Ultimecia, the only statement against this was 1) from a person who is not in charge of those decisions and 2) has been withdrawn by himself in the meantime. This isn´t even a debate according to me. Rinoa IS Ultimecia, period.
Agreed. Don't trust Kitase.
The podium scene where Ultmecia as Edea brings Rinoa to the stage says something about their new queen which at first seems like she is talking about herself as Edea but she brought Rinoa up there for a reason and the way she worded it was like she was talking in 3rd person.
He wasn't a story writer was he? What was his role? If I remember it had nothing to do with the writing.
@@zeaferjones1404 To sacrifice her as a part of the festivities, Ultimecia says this. Also in this theory she has attempted to kill her past self twice over. Three if you send her to garden and don't actually mess with the missile accuracy. She can't have been intending to use Rinoa directly beyond assisting with her own aims, or considered her to be important to save because she tries to kill her in this very scene, and then later on sees her abandoned to die in space. If Squall hadn't retrieved Rinoa from space, Ultimecia would've successfully killed herself in the past and she would cease to exist.
3:28 I think it Seifer was under the control of Ultimecia, that's why it shows both color.
I mean it was shown pretty clearly that she used some mindspell on him in disc 1.
up until you showed Seifer, I was convinced it's because they all use "drawn" magic, that's why here is a circle and the blue lights. And the enemies don't have a circle, because their magic is not "drawn" or "junctioned". But Seifer must have magic drawn and junctioned. So WHY does he have blue and green lights? He must be the key to all of this. And, with the theory of Rinoa being the being attached to the very last boss, it makes sense that the sorceress in the end doesn't use the blue lights also, as Rinoa is junctioned to her.
Nice, I never noticed that before, the attention to detail in this game keeps surprising me.
Wow! FFVIII is so layered. This is awesome to see! They really put a lot into this game. So many little hints!
I dont care about what the director said ... this is rinoa
As you can see from this video, the director has retracted his statement, so there's no need to worry👍
ua-cam.com/video/Mf1Kc7D5ANE/v-deo.html
I didn't notice this one bit playing the game. WOAH!!!
This is actually creeping me out. Good job!
Thanks!
In real life Rinoa is your dream girl then you marry her become your wife and turn into Ultimacia.
Wow!! That's scaryn😭
So how and wild things will be happening in the bedroom every night?
As much as I absolutely love the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory, I could never bring myself to believe it. I wanted to, but I couldn't. It'd be awesome if it were true, though. However, I've always been open to the possibility that Ultimecia could be Squall and Rinoa's daughter or granddaughter. I know she lives generations in the future, but we don't know exactly how many generations, and I think the developers intentionally left that up to us to decide. As for Ultimecia's age, I don't think the developers even know that because it's irrelevant to the story, but she looks like she could be anywhere from 28 to 60.
One thing I've picked up on was how Ultimecia talks - how all the Cs are replaced with Ks. My theory is that it might not just be her who talks like that. That might be how everybody talks in her time period. 100 years ago, people talked a lot differently than how we talk today, so 100 years from now, our descendants might be talking differently as well. That's my take on it anyway.
The K instead of C thing is just a localization gimmick because she has a "masculine" speech pattern in Japanese. They were trying to give her an accent that would sound harsh in the localization to kinda replicate that. Was pretty much dropped in Dissidia though.
Well just give y'all reminder.
When ultimecia have beaten, she comes to the past (where Squall also there) and meet matron.
Matron take her power (worry that one of children got instead) to let her died
Matron, in the end turn as edea.
When she got beaten, the power move to rinoa accidentally.
Another you need to remember,
This FF series is about "time-loop" concept.
1) Adult Squall from future tell matron about SEEDs and meet young Squall, after matron take ultimecia's power
2) matron ask cid to establish SEEDs
3) young Squall and the children join SEEDs when they grow up
4) matron turn as edea and got beaten
5) ultimecia got beaten
6) Squall failing to back to his current time and come to past and meet matron
7) back to: 1)
So yeah, that "power" never disappear. it just circles around to the same people in different time
So the plot hole is:
There is possibility that after Rinoa, there was an event that caused her power to transfer to another person until it reached Ultimecia?
Nope, my friend. This is not time loop physically. Only one thing loop is the circle of Ultimecia's dead. She was born in the very far future, actually the power of Ultimecia needed to be freed because she cannot rest in peace with it, Ultimecia is just messing with the time stream and she has to pay for that ambition.
It's always been an interesting thought about them being the same person. I think they're definitely connected, but not the same person. Remember that Ultimecia has a very different speech pattern from Rinoa and I don't think it's because she had a stroke. Ultimecia spent time in Rinoa's body and would know her thoughts and feelings. Maybe they had an influence on her.
Great video!
Ultimecia also has a rarely used attack called “Vacuum Wave” in her human form (basically the same attack animation as Edea when she joins your party, I have a video of it on my channel).
Ultimecia has always been one of my fav villains alongside Kefka. I’m all for her getting more backstory and development.
WE ARE SO BACK. I've always loved R = U. I love this head cannon, but I don't know if what it's what the writers actually intended. But there's definitely something hidden and sprinkled throughout the game that maybe didn't get it made into the final script. And don't forget they gave a nod to this theory in Final Fantasy Mobius with Ultimicia dancing and pointing up just like rinoa did.
One line from the game debunked this theory. I can’t remember if it was Laguna or doctor odine but they said ultimecia lives so far in the future that none of them can technically exist including rinoa
ua-cam.com/video/Mf1Kc7D5ANE/v-deo.html
They asked the director about this and while he said it wasn’t part of the script, he said one of the writers was famous for adding cryptic clues to plot twists and hidden secrets and that, while Rinoa officially isn’t Ultemecia, he could’ve secretly created his own story link without telling anyone.
That's probably the same thing that Kitase is talking about in this video👍
ua-cam.com/video/Mf1Kc7D5ANE/v-deo.html
FF 8 is the story about bootstrap paradox and rinoa as ultimecia really fit the theme
Here is my theory taken from the montage at the end.
Squall is stuck in a paradox where his alternate self is destined to fight Ultimecia forever (everything is replaying; him meeting Rinoa at the party, etc.) In order to break this paradox, Squall must not rescue Rinoa in space, and instead let her die in space. Ultimecia’s powers will die with her. Squall realizes this and a tear falls from his eye, as his worst fear of being truly alone is realized.
If Rinoa dies in space, Ultimecia will not be able to reincarnate and transfer her powers back to Edea to retrigger the paradox. Adel is defeated, and no time compression.
That is dark! But an interesting theory, nonetheless.
I work in entertainment and closely with people who write scripts. When you get a lot of people involved and revisions, you end up losing payoffs for setups, think of it as plot holes. There are pieces of older versions of scripts that get left in. There may have been every intention of revealing that Rinoa was Ultimecia in the end but it wasn't able to be pulled off for whatever reason. All the "evidence" was left in the story because so much work had already been done so they gloss over it.
Thanks for comment.
I often receive similar comments.
There aren't many people in Japan who share this view, but people overseas seem to have more of that opinion.
I find such opinions understandable and interesting❤️
Awesome job this deserves more attention.
Thanks❤️
This is so freaking interesting! Thank you! All hail ff8!!!
i just figured the grand sorceress thing involved memories or a connection to the others that held the title or powers of that status before. its a common theme in a lot of fiction that high magical statuses where inherited with the knowledge of their use.
avatars depiction of angs connection to the previous avatars would be the pop culture reference.
im so happy these details were already noticed by many. i've been thought of this already even from ps1 days ^_^
to add, rinoa's way of casting magic is nearly identical with Ultimecia's. the head movement, eyes closing then eventually opens before casting. Ultimecia just use both hands ^_^
4:01 !!!
WHOA, applying this to Ultimecia is crazy because it implies further that Ultimecia is a witch combined with an ally (has to be either Rinoa or Edea post switch)
There is another witch on the Game...spoilers...
Even if it's not proof of R=U its such an interesting detail. It must have been missed by a lot of people.
it's also false because other enemies sometimes use the 'ally casting effect'. Wedge is one.
@@dragames wedge is not a bad guy though. so other interpretation could be, "a blue is being cast originally by a good person"
The blue effect is because they are using Para-magic to cast spells. The green effect is plain magic.
Squall and co are using para-magic with GF
Laguna and co are controlled by Squall and co, so they can use para magic
Edea is controlled by Ultimecia so she uses paramagic (will explain later)
Fujin and Rajin also uses GF (Pandemona) as they are Balamb students
Edea is an Ice witch and maybe combined with Time with Ultimecia and she can cast Fire and Thunder. This is because of Paramagic. When you use Edea, you need to equip a GF so she can use para-magic and even Odin mentioned that she doesn’t have magic anymore.
Ultimecia is a Time witch and uses Griever as her GF to able to cast other types of para-magic.
Galbadia soldiers are using other type of system to use magic, maybe their swords or something, but they do not use a GF.
About Seifer, that’s a good one, maybe he is using a combination of GF para-magic and something that Galbadia built for him.
Edit: More evidence of this. When you use card, restore, revive, summon or any other ability from the GF, the blue effect also exists. So that means they use the blue effect to “call the GF” and use the ability.
At the time you battle Edea she does not have a GF equipped
@@greatness91 but she does have Utlimecia junctioned.
@@dragames so edea junction ultimecia as her GF, which is also juctioned griver. junctionception!
@@greatness91Edea had Alexander GF in stock
I would say that this is the biggest proof for the hypothesis ever since it's a minute detail but one that can never be "just an accident", it has to be intentional beyond any reasonable doubt.
Without the Rinoa-Artemisia, FF8 plot is kinda... shallow, and empty, it definetively feels like it's missing something, I already believed that when I was a kid, before the internet and this theory be famous.
However, with the theory being canon, it makes FF8 a much deeper and complex game storywise and worldbuilding wise, endlessly tragic (literally) and the only FF which may or may not have a bad/uncertain ending.
It is plausible this was the original intention, but scrapped due to it being way too complex and tragic: sure FF does go into more mature themes but the happy ending is mostly a given, the Rinoa-Artemisa puts the game in a position of it being too deep for its own good, they may have felt it could hurt the sales.
This find is just incredible and I can't believe nobody has yet done a proper Riona-Artemisia revision theory in the light of this finding, anyways thanks a lot, this is an incredibly important "discovery".
It's probably something to do with using GF as a medium to cast magic.
Though it doesn't explain why random soldiers can cast magic.
Yeah remember whenever you Draw magic from monsters or enemies? There are blue circles swirling. That must be the blue light that is emitting whenever you cast a magic that is drawn or junctioned. It must be an indicator that these people or characters knows how to Junction, lore-wise.
for me Rinoa animate when she cast a spell one hand
and Ultimecia animate when she cast a spell with two hands
and 2 animate when casting is similar
Awesome. I thought it was gonna be about something I literally just noticed a few weeks ago in that Seifer's casting sound effect is ever so slightly different from the party's, and you end up blowing my mind by pointing out the green particle effects were there when I never noticed at all. I'ma check for myself later, just to be sure, but that's awesome.
Also, this is just further proof of what we already knew-R=U.
But there is ONE other thing you could add: Wedge actually has the blue particle effects when he casts magic and as far as I know is the only enemy in the game to do so.
I didn't know that. Thanks❤️
Great video, its possibily the blue aura is an effect of junction with G.F? I don´t know if Raijin had a G.F but Fujin has Pandemona, Edea has Alexander and Ultimecia has Griever. The case of Seifer is more misterous. It´s probably have a junction with G.F and also have a junction with Ultimecia(Hyne) What do you think?
After all this time....I will stay a Rinoa is Ultimecia believer!
It will play the same texture animation in different ways for mobs, bosses, and allies.
We need to bully SE into remaking FFVIII and turning this theory true
I think so too🤣
Hello, plz add "big thanks" button ... 😇
This is actually interesting
Its kind of obvious like why would Ultimecia have Greiver of all GFs randomly, they didn't have you name it for fun then later have Ultimecia use it without meaning anything
I don't think she did? She summoned it from Squalls ring
..., which he had given to Rinoa on Disc 3.
It's because she can read and extract information from their minds so Ultimecia took the image of griever directly from Squall's thoughts as this symbol of strength. It had nothing to do with the ring itself meaning anything to Ultimecia, it doesn't, and everything to do with what the symbol of griever represented to Squall personally, the Japanese version of the game is a lot clearer than the english version about this.
@@laileleneirose7966 ...this doesn't explain anything at all.
@@alexeychubarov5875 How so? People are mistakenly attributing sentimental attachment to Ultimecia’s summoning of Griever where there is none. I am saying the Japanese version of ff8 makes it much clearer than the English version does that this is incorrect, the sentimental attachment is on Squall’s part. Ultimecia drew Griever directly from Squall’s mind where he’s this symbol of strength and then forced him to fight it. It is a psychological tactic she was attempting to wield in order to defeat him; in essence making him fight the very symbol of ultimate strength and courage as imagined within his own mind. Not because she has any attachment to Griever. Since she can draw things from their minds, such as stocked spells you have in game, etc, she is doing this very thing. Harnessing the information about Griever from Squall’s mind and summoning it into being in order to mess with him. Just like she brought the stone statues to life at the end of disc 1.
Sorceress Ultimecia simply hijacks Rinoa's form just like she hijacked Edea's form. I thought that much was always obvious. The different nods are all completely intentional but Ultimecia herself is not Rinoa. Rinoa's will and her heart and soul are not the same as Ultimecia's. It is skin deep. This would be why she has the same sound effect as Seifer, an ally turned enemy.
Square Enix has officially and repeatedly stated that Ultemecia is NOT Rinoa. They have stated that Ultemecia’s single motivation was that she didn’t want don’t to die.
They also reminded fans that Ultemecia is from the far future and that witches do NOT have extended life spans.
This hypothesis has not been rejected.
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
※It's at the last part of this video
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007
I’m not talking about that interview with Kitase you are referring to, but the stand of Square Enix as a whole.
This video is from Square Enix's official channel.
@@大銀河帝国の皇帝 Got a source? Never heard of that
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
↑↑↑
Check out this video starting at about 51 minutes and 48 seconds.
It seems that not many people overseas know about this official Square Enix video.
This theory is a headcannon of mine.
I know devs said no, but honestly it makes the story so much better
Thanks.
However, the year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
※It's at the last part of this video
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
Wow this is extreme detailing!
i just blame ellone for everything lol
Unrelated but I'd love to see you compare FF8 to The Wizard of Oz because kitase admitted FF8s fantasy side was based on Oz in an interview for the remaster. Esther was supposed to be green and the witches are like the wicked witches. So I wonder if Oz has anything that could be a clue to the story of FF8 or even the R=U theory. Like maybe Rinoa is Glinda the Good Witch? Idk.
I hadn't thought of that, but it's an interesting idea❤️
Pretty solid theory!
My headcanon, or rewrite, is that Ultimecia is Squall and Rinoa's daughter who inherited Rinoa's sorceress powers when she passed away later in life.
How she would know about Griever is that Rinoa would make up bedtime stories for her as a child to ease her worry over Squall being away all the time. Griever would, essentially, just be Squall anthropomorphized. Through those subconscious memories, she can conjure Griever.
Griever, still being a GF, (and later her only companion) still had the amnesia effect on her causing her to forget many things from her past - like her desire to use time compression not to destroy and merge all time together, but to be reunited with her parents. But due to the side effect of summoning Griever in her lonliness, she forgotten about her original plans to be reunited with Squall and Rinoa and was left with only anger and frustration that turned into malice for all things.
It's admittedly a little dicey of a theory/ rewrite with room for plotholes, but I like it overall. I think it's even more tragic than Rinoa simply turning evil later.
I interpret this just as a simple aesthetic choice.
I think the blue light are for humanoid characters and the green light for enemy & monsters characters
These are just my thoughts and not specifically saying anything in regards to this video. But-
Rinoa is Rinoa and Ultimecia is Ultimecia.
It's as simple as that. This was even debunked by Kitase and when he gave some credence to the idea that it could be possible by saying he doesn't know what Nomura and Nojima had in mind when they plotted her character, even that doesn't actually work. If you read any Nomura and Nojima interview, you know they'd be rolling with it if only to mess around. If they were intending people to make that connection, they would absolutely be saying something about it in a "yeah, we definitely want people to think that" sort of way, even if they never confirm it. Or hell, if it was something intended it would have absolutely been in the Ultimanias. Squall being Laguna's son is confirmed in one of the Ultimanias. And they even go further into things that they wanted to do with the game.
All the "evidence" over the years has largely been evidence that tends to ignore what actually is shown in the game and in the lore and what the themes of the game are actually intended to be, as well as ignoring that a lot of subtext was cut from the English version because they translated directly from the game text and not from a script.
As one person I was read put it, the R = U theory was always about putting in a tragic story element just add more pathos, no matter how much it doesn't fit with the lore. How does Rinoa live for many generations after the events of the game? Because. Why does Rinoa decide to do these things knowing she was there and saw what the outcome of those actions were. "Well maybe she forgot". Why would Ultimecia risk leaving Rinoa to die in space when she needs Rinoa to live so that she can become Ultimecia. And she knows that it's inevitable that she will be saved but somehow doesn't know that she will be defeated once she does Time Compression.
When the answer is just "well she knows because of x but still can't change her fate" it just becomes circular reasoning that doesn't fit because it just raises more questions. That's what I despise about the R = U theory, it doesn't solve the puzzle because it's a piece that doesn't fit. And the mental gymnastics I've seen over the years to justify it just makes me really annoyed.
The answer to all those questions is "the longest you use GF the more you forget". So the theory behind that may be that Rinoa heartbroken lost her mind. In order to wait more for Squall and prolong her life uses more magic=GF. That way not only is she "crazy" but also forgets. At some point she just wants to go back without even knowing the reason why. She's driven by heart alone. No consciousness comes into play. She wants to achieve the unachievable and she is willing to beat anyone who tries to stop her. That includes herself. She doesn't even remember who she was and how she ended up like this. As far as the story goes it's up to the player to decide if the theory stands or not. There are clues about both those cases it's up to anyone to decide which side he is on. IMO Rinoa was supposed to be Ultimecia but for whatever reason the creators ultimately decided to pull back and that explains the reason it wasn't included in ultimania.
It's the same thing as Anakin Skywalker being Darth Vader.
@Bebekosa Or, as Kitase says, no it wasn't ever supposed to be that way and you guys are just overthinking something that's not there.
And the GF thing doesn't make sense because Rinoa probably wouldn't be fighting long term with them once the day is saved, since she admits she doesn't want to fight and she doesn't want to use her sorceress powers either. And aside from the ending, there's no instance where Rinoa reconciles using those powers. So it's likely that, the firet opportunity she gets to get rid of them, she'll take it.
No, Rinoa is not Ultimecia and she was never meant to be, Kitase put the kibash on it and if it were ever meant to be a thing, it would have been revealed by now.
I barely understood any English/Japanese when I played this as a kid, and even then I came to the conclusion that R=U just like what every kid at my school thought as well (ending scene explained it very clearly without saying a word), I've only learned that it was a "theory" when we had access to the internet years later, I've played this game around 40 times since and learned English and a bit of Japanese because of it and I always came to the same conclusion,
there is literally no question that R=U
Hyne is the true ennemy of ff 8
Yes!!
At this point they should respond to us with a ff8 sequel
So I got remaster, idk if this is anything but everybody in the party except Quistis and Seifer are 17 years old.
Wasnt it already confirmed Rinoa and Ultimecia arent the same person? I know if there was a remake square might play w the idea of Squall is dead but i remember seeing how it was a hard no for Rinoa and Ultimecia
Those are ears.
Where is this information from?
@JapaneseGames007 Yoshinori Kitase gave an interview and denied the theory. He said even in a remake they probably wouldn't incorporate the idea. He goes on to say that Rinoa and Ultimecia are both witches so they are similar but they aren't thr same person
Kitase has since retracted his statement denying this hypothesis.
I've also never heard him mention the FF8 remake in that way. If you know where this information came from, please let me know.
@@JapaneseGames007 interesting. It's true the information I looked up was dated 2017 or so but when did he retract that?
At the end of this video there is a bonus clip of Kitase talking. Please take a look if you'd like.
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
I don't think it proves Ultimecia is Rinoa but it may hint that Ultimecia didn't want to be enemies or felt hostility to the party members. At least at the beginning. Then in her final form she feels hostile towards the party members.
I don't want to be a buzzkill, but unfortunately the difference isn't enemy vs ally, but monster vs characters, and yes this means the soldiers, witches and other mass produced humanoid enemies also count as monsters. Think of it as the ones that use the blue effect were made in a character creator and can do anything the main cast can if you replaced their models, while the monster type who use the green effect are made for the sole purpose of being an enemy and only have their specific actions implemented, just like how you couldn't climb a ladder, sit on a chair or switch weapons if you replaced your character with lets say a dragon. Just think of the mass produced humanoid enemies as human shaped dragons.
But if a purely technical explanation doesn't satisfy you, then how about we mix a bit of lore into it: Why is it that the blue effect only appears when Ultimecia is in her base/character form? Wouldn't it make sense that her monster form also had the blue effect?
Still, I love the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory, so really I hope that if they ever remake the game (which I want more than any other FF content) they'll make it canon. Hell, it wouldn't be any crazier than what they did with the 7 remake.
Then if it's technical why does Seifer have both? Why does Ultimecia not only have one type if it wasn't intended? It's only in her 1st form because it's the most similar form to what's left of Rinoa.
Here's some interesting information about the Rinoa-Ultimecia theory:
The people who wrote the story say, that's not correct. Case closed.
As you can see in this video, the director（Kitase） who denied this hypothesis has since retracted his statement.
ua-cam.com/video/Mf1Kc7D5ANE/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 I am aware that he retracted his statement, because of fan backlash. He says in the interview here that "someone may have added in the essence of this idea" specifically pointing to Nojima since he's known for doing that. They definitely seem to want to leave the possibility open for a future retcon, which I'm all for. But this idea that they were the same person "was not present in the final draft of the scenario" as he says here.
The reason it's different is because they are drawing the magic from the GF junction then casting it.
I've heard the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory before, but for some reason, it never quite "clicks" with me. I'm not sure why that is. So instead, I'll end on a positive note, even if it is unrelated: It would be awesome to see a fleshed-out prequel starring Laguna that culminates in his fight against Adel and rewards the players with some answers.
Can’t make a case for Rinoa-Ultimecia relation when you also show other examples of non-allies having the same allied casting effect. It would be more plausible it signifies casting magic thru junctioning GF or casting with lack thereof.
Very interesting. Perhaps the answer lies by answering the question from which perspective "Enemy" and "Ally" is perceived - is it Squall's? Is it the group as a whole?
Another theory: I noticed you had Rinoa in your party in the last fight for both forms of Ultimecia. First form blue light: Because Rinoa in your party subconsciously sees herself in Ultimecia- why being hostile towards yourself? Final form Green Light: Magical Hyne seeing Rinoa as enemy, the bond to Rinoa has been lost.
A bit of a stretch, but would you have any ideas as to what happens to Norg? If you return to his pod in Balamb's basement, it looks like he broke out of it
Probably turned into a Moomba since it's their final phase.
Too many coincidences. I love your videos btw.
I feel like this may have something more to do with GFs or junctioning than something as confusing as allies vs. intended allies vs. enemies. It's an interesting note though.
I'm still a firm believer of the Rinoa is Ultimecia. It's too perfect.
I interpret it as a graphical f'up.
The people you mention that have the combination can also have a GF drawn from them. I think at one time you could do the same thing for Ulticima, but it was changed or something. Anyway there isn't enough to prove anything besides a concept from the room floor.
Very interesting. I definitely never would have noticed that myself. Still, I think there's room to assume it may have just been an oversight by the developers. Because when you think about it, Ultimecia's first form plays very closely to the two times you fight Edea (they even use similar move sets), so it's possible they just recycled the same general enemy programming from those fights and swapped the character model, but forgot to change that spellcasting effect when they were done. I think that's a pretty plausible explanation.
human type enemies use blue light monster enemies use green.
I thought the blue light comes from magic users who are not natural to it like humans that junctioned a gf to themselves in order to be able to use the magic. Contrary to monsters that are in some way naturaly using magic
Very cool discovery
this is a Fact but the developer will bury it,
🤭🤭🤭
Squall die in Disk 1 being stabbed by Edea ice spear. Disk 2 and Disk 3 basically Squall "last couple of sec" before totally died, life flashing before his eyes on his dream and hope, being Rinoa boyfriend, best seeD, etc. Basically being the hero.
Thats why when you see Squall again on disc 2, he's an unwounded prisoner despite those massive ice spear from Edea. On top of that, disc 2 onwards are starting to become more and more imaginary. They'll encounter red talking lion creatures, a bizarre race of alien-like humanoids and a variety of other odd plot points that just seem to fall into place. It's an almost ethereal realization.
Thanks for comment.
Certainly, we can make such a hypothesis♪
It all points to how Rinoa is Ultemicia.
Your videos are amazing.
Rinoa being Ultimecia is the hill that I will die on.
- Squall !!! Odorimashô !! 💃
wow this thing still going on even though the director of the game itself confirmed that its not true?
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
※It's at the end of this video.
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 woaah it seems like He retracted his statement and stays neutral on the idea to make the hype alive
so that if its actually becoming so big they will use the opportunity to expand the story into that area and make more money out of it 🤣
as expected of VII remake producer
Yes（Haha）
I also think that Square Enix is leaving room for this hypothesis to be applied to future works without confirming or denying it.
I heard the 'Rinoa-Ultimecia' hypothesis was debunked.
This hypothesis has not been rejected.
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
※It's at the last part of this video
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 Yeah, but once something has been debunked once, it's hard to believe them when they decide to backpedal, because we don't know when he'll inevitably change his mind on the issue again.
This is especially true when you're talking about the person who is the master of the concept of the 'Unreliable Narrator'. Bear in mind, this is the same guy that said the end of the original FFVII 500 years later was a world devoid of humans, and that was canon in their minds when making FFVIIR. But now with the second game in that trilogy, it's looking obvious that this was a multiverse concept and what he said might not have been true at all.
If Kitase's name is on a project, you can't always trust what you see at face value, and you can't always believe everything he says, because he is known for misleading audiences for the sake of dramatic effect. There is a not-zero chance that FFVIII will be remade at some point in the future.
Well, in the end, Square Enix hasn't officially confirmed or denied it, so as you say, fans will just have to wait for the answer to come out in a new "remake" or other work.
@@JapaneseGames007 Sorry about all of the comments in a row. UA-cam was glitching and the comments weren't posting. I went ahead and got rid of all the repeats.
They arent the same though.
Rinoa and Ultimecia are nothing alike, personality, any of that.
The experiences ultimecia went through Rinoa has not gone through. These experiences are what made ultimecia. Since Rinoa was not influenced by these events and they will never come to pass. She will never be ultimecia.
Also if we go with the amnesia from gfs idea, the moment she loses important memories that would influence who she is and differs from Rinoa, she becomes her own person entirely. Like if i lost all my memories and started acting differently. The person i was is gone and replaced with the new personality and experiences i gain from my amnesia forward.
Am i saying Rinoa cant become her? Yes and no. Our Rinoa cannot be ultimecia it just isnt possible cause the outcome of us winning is inevitable. Maybe if there are alternate timelines and she somehow jumped into our timeline. But why would she jump ship to our timeline? She can only exist in one where squall dies which would only happen in a timeline in which she already exists. Her safest bet is to stay in her timeline. (The legendary seed is already dead)
Also if squall dying to ultimecia/being lost to time only happens if she tried s to compress time. Then she will stop existing outright. Remember in our timeline squall does not fail or die. Which means rinoa will never become ultimecia. Unless squall dies elsewhere. Ultimecia would have to be a completely seperate Rinoa with the power to move into a parallel timeline just to off herself cause it makes not sense to move to a dangerous location where your enemy exists.
I love your content but I truly wish there was a voice speaking over it
Come to think of it, I will voiceover your videos if you like my voice. Feel free to check out a recent episode of my Elden Ring let's play for a sample. Best of luck to you and thanks for the content. 🌠
To me Rinoa is sort of unlikeable for example she is bossy and selfish. Her being Ultmecia makes sense to me.
There are quite a lot of Japanese people who have that impression of Rinoa😭
Are people still harping on about this, when the original creator said no, Rinoa is Not Ultimecia, yet people will just go full denial mode to validate their theories?
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
※It's at the end of this video.
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
although i wanted this to be true, but one big flaw about this is that, the blue light can simply just be an effect for normal human characters by design, for both enemies and and allies , and green lights is for everything/everyone else that isn't human or in the normal human size form. that explains why edea, raijin and fujin also have blue lights as enemy. UNLESS you can find examples that show non human size characters showing blue lights or human characters using JUST green lights. otherwise i can't agree with your hypothesis.
thank you for providing some new insights to this game after like.. 25 years. . but i think this hypothesis might be reaching.
Pretty sure square already shot this thing down a while ago , they are different people
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
※It's at the last part of this video
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
Square confirmed this theory is not true, BUT everything points that it is
Square Enix has neither outright confirmed nor denied this hypothesis.
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement.
If you're interested, check out the last part of this video.
※It's at the end of this video.
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 I follow this theory for years and after this video it makes much more sense. I just say what I read
Thanks👍
@@danit7348"I just say what I read." Of course you do, that's a cute little NPC.
It's just a coding thing. Player characters get the blue, NPC's get the green. Seifer as the boss had his model ported from the player one and modified, then the player aura wasn't removed. Meanwhile Edea was playable and Ultimecia was a copy paste of her. No lore implications.
boy you must be fun at parties, and you didnt explain fujin and raijin
there are players expecting remake of this game but i´d rather they didn´t make it, since they are stuck in their pointless struggle for better graphics i´m positive they´d end up with another fiasco like ff7 remake.
I too have mixed feelings of excitement and anxiety about this😅
Bullshit, the producer himself denied this fallacy years ago
This hypothesis has not been rejected.
The year after Kitase denied this hypothesis, he retracted his statement in an official Square Enix video.
If you're interested, please watch the end of this video.
・It's at the last part of this video
ua-cam.com/video/Ym9BFfiFFV0/v-deo.html
（It starts at about 51 minutes and 48 seconds into this video.）
didn't the director confirmed this thesis false?
Please watch this video.
ua-cam.com/video/Mf1Kc7D5ANE/v-deo.html
@@JapaneseGames007 Well crap, he retracted ua-cam.com/video/k8asSQorSng/v-deo.html
fuck i hate when they do that, i watched the interview he mentioned there and in there he said that theory wasn't true so i thought "well, that's it".
Either way, this hypothesis can't be confirmed or denied at present.
I think it's good to exchange opinions, but I think it's stupid to argue about who's right.