The Great Tall vs Short Debate: Who Comes Out on Top?
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- Опубліковано 1 січ 2023
- The most hotly debated topic among new climbers - is climbing easier if you are tall? A lot of factors come into play in this debate, it's not just about reaching the holds. Shorter climbers might have a greater strength:weight ratio, the holds will be relatively bigger for finger length, tight positions will be more comfortable. Taller climbers may make big distances with greater ease, bigger hands can gain more purchase on wide slopers and pinches, longer legs can reach further foot options. Rather than get into that, we simply put it to the test with good old fashioned competition. The winner will settle the debate once and for all, right?
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Please have more of Teresa!!! Her energy, enthusiasm, and her short beta is awesome. I feel I can learn alot from her, as I'm a shortie too 5'1.
Fun video!
Awwww 😊😁
@@TeresaCityofPortugal I agree! Such an inspiration. You go Teresa! :-)
you might wanna look up Ai Mori, one of the best climbers all around, be it lead or boulder, she is quite short too with 154 cm and won multiple world cups
Teresa is wonderful and charming! I would be happy to see her again 😊
Great fun video, but we need to give huge props to the older person at 7:22 boulering in the background. Climbing is one of the few sports where you often see people actively practicing it well into their old age. Whoever you are, mystery red-sleeve-blue-vest person, you are an inspiration!
Yes! So awesome to see! I ran into a group of 4 guys top roping at my gym that were all above the age of 80 and said they’ve been doing it since before I was born (I’m 24). These guys didn’t look a day over 60! Climbing keeps you young I swear
@@V8chump there might be a survivorship bias in there: those who did it but did age (or die) 'because' of climbing you would not see at your gym anymore of course ;)
Being tall gives u much more opportunities to break the beta but also gives u longer levers that make almost every your move physically harder. Also, you weigh more than a short climber. Sometimes it's better to be short, sometimes it's better to be taller, but there is still no perfect height for climbing. Also, lack of strength/technique will limit you much more than being too short/tall.
100% right
in a gym you are at more of a disadvantage as a short climber in my experience. Too many boulders are set by people who have little regard for reachy moves that are just basically phyiscally impossible for shorter climbers. The same can't quite be said for taller folks
I think there are a lot of moves that become way harder when you’re 95% extended vs 80% extended. I definitely have an easier time twisting myself around on overhangs, though. Being short makes it much easier to raise my hips and bring my legs back onto the wall after cutting feet.
@@cedricrust9953 it is the exact opposite for me as a foreigner living in an Asian country. Intended for/heel hooks don’t fit my body length. And my longer arms make high feet moves far more difficult for me.
I'm 6'2" - it's generally a big advantage on big, vertical walls and reachy slab routes, and a disadvantage on overhung or compact boulders/routes. Give me a 5.12 on a big lead wall with long reaches and dynamic movement all day. Give me a V3 with a sit start and I'm out!
This was really fun to watch. Teresa crushed and I loved ‘prepare for the worst, expect the best’! 😊
it aint even been out for the full duration?
I can comment whilst watching! 😊
At 6’8” (203 cm), I can tell you that at some point being extremely tall becomes a disadvantage in almost every situation. Sit starts, anything with high feet, coming over roofs/mantles, overhangs, keeping hips close to the wall, all become major obstacles. I will say, top outs are usually easier and there are definitely some climbs that I finish knowing my height made it easier, but the far majority of climbs feel like I have to generate way more power, grip strength, and body tension than someone of average height.
Agreed at 195cm I truly feel my advantage is merely on reachy boulders yet average guys can usually reach where I can yet I need to do some awkward tall guy beta to climb normally and everywhere else it’s a disadvantage, which statistics confirm, so way to go smol people I am jellous.
And don't forget the added weight that usually comes with extra height...
@@jurajjakubec8600 Super tall beta = liebacks every Boulder then watching a normal height person walk straight up
Thats more like 6'7", but I am that height as well so I know what tall means. And If you have more weight that you should have, (not necessarily fat but just more muscle or heavier bones) that you are relly disadvantageous.
@@wordpress4373 Yeah I’m in the US so my metric conversion was probably not spot on
Being 4'11", there are definitely a bunch of climbs that weren't made for my height, for eg. far toe hook moves like the one T struggled on. In these situations, I have to think creatively, be SUUPER strong or just move on to another climb that doesn't rely on length. I do feel disadvantaged at times, but it helps me work on my technique and strength more than someone a lot taller than I am, and I think it makes climbing more fun.
"I do feel disadvantaged at times, but it helps me work on my technique and strength more than someone a lot taller than I am, and I think it makes climbing more fun."
This is it! As a quite tall man, 195 cm, I often feel I don't get to move as I want to. Whenever the routesetters set a jump move, or just wider span, and actually set it to fit average or shorter climbers, (def not the case always, i know) I always feel cheated when I can reach almost without moving, or hardly have to jump. As a lover of movement, I feel left out.. The youth team I used to teach are able to play so much more on the wall, although it took a while to get them there. As initially they were shot down whenever they couldn't statically reach. Now I envy them. To me climbing is about the movement, not the send of some number. Especially, when the number was decided by people of a completely different build than yourself.
I think until about V7 tall people have an advantage. Then it evens out and and even favors shorter people once you get to about V9.
I'm short-ish.
More Teresa! It's so great to see the strategies that a shorter climber uses!
😁😁
Good video this! I climb with a group that's very broad on the spectrum of tall and short, and some gyms you just look at the route setters and know that the short ones(me included) is going to have a rough time. The one I've had the most fun in there's a route setter girl that's like half the size the of another setters... and all of a sudden there's balance on boulders where the tall in our group fall off in roughly equal amount to the rest of us
At my gym the main route setter are suuuper tall. I'm very small for a dutch person and sometimes I just get grumpy when I just cannot reach stuff or when the footholds are so high they are above my hips making it also sometimes scarry af.
Great video! It would be nice to have a follow up on good techniques for tall vs. short people to use when they find themselves in problematic positions or exercises that can help you generate force in very compressed or extended positions.
yeah, would love a follow-up on the orange boulder where teresa said she'd need to find another beta
Where did SHE came from? I mean, the all video is a great idea but Teresa... She made it so fun to watch! Great energy, great vibe! She seems to be such a cool climber to climb with... And despite she kind of lost she seems strong AF ! Great addition to the Lattice guests in my opinion... More of her please!
Awwww that's very kind! 😊
I think the main disadvantage I have as a tall climber is having atrociously bad technique from doing all the easier climbs by reaching past the intended beta.
I have no patience with easy climbs. I try to do them in a few moves as possible lol
Thankyou for admitting that!!!! Most of the tall climbers that I’ve climbed with and talked to won’t admit that being tall is ever an advantage. 😀
lol same for super strong climbers
@@ABSVabeautifulsunsetvlog Of course it is! But I think the only advantages that really count are the ones that you earned by training (or eating healthy food, etc. etc., you get the point). Everything else is just some meaningless gift you won in the genetic lottery.
I'm 4'10 and my husband is 6'. We've been climbing for a couple weeks now (starting to send V2s) and we've both noticed my technique has to be much better to send problems he can reach his way through. Trying not to get discouraged - but seeing shorter folks like T climb so well is a huge motivator for sure!
I'm 5'10, and my wife is 4'11. We've been climbing for nearly a year now, and it's been SO much fun. It's been awesome to see both of us get stronger and more skilled. Definitely don't get discouraged. My wife has had some of that, but she's now really starting to feel the "getting good" high. Best of luck on your new hobby (/addiction)!
the upside is that your technique will probably progress much faster than his due to necessity and you may start to send more technique based climbs quicker. I'm in a similar position where I'm much shorter than my partner and my brother who climb with me. A year and a half in, I'm starting to get nearly as physically strong as them, and their technique is only now catching up to mine, so we are starting to even out across various styles.
Don't worry, once you start climbing on smaller holds, the lower weight and shorter fingers will be a massive advantage
@@La0bouchereshorter fingers will make pinches and slopers harder but she’ll be a crimp champ… probably why tons of women are slab specialists actually, they got those team kid fingers
Upside is, the higher you get in the grades, the more your technique will matter and the less 'tall guy' beta's there are.
Great video as usual!!
My only remark is that this might not be very sound comparison, mainly due to 2 reasons:
- as strong as they might be, male vs female cannot be unbiased (this is more like an "average-short female vs average male comparison")
- 5'11" is honestly not that tall for a male, it's actually within the ideal height for bouldering, which is probably 5'7"-6'1" (males)
Would love to see a comparison between 3 climbers (same sex):
- short < 5'7"
- 5'7" < average < 6'1"
- tall > 6'1"
Keep up the good work! One of the best climbing channels out there!
Agree!
Totally agree that gender should be looked at distinct from height. Women of all heights have a lower centre of gravity than men, a much higher percentage body fat (otherwise they stop menstruating and bone density plunges), and have less power especially in the upper body (due to lower testosterone and thus less muscle built). That all translates into differences climbing. There is variety between women as regarding testosterone levels and how low body fat % can get before the health problems kick in, but the sex differences here are large and very well-established in the research literature. The only major advantage for women is in endurance (hence records in long distance swimming and winning some ultramarathons), so you might expect that to kick in for very long multipitch routes but not bouldering.
I was thinking it might be an idea to build two versions of a boulder, exactly the same just one version where the holds are further apart. So that one climber can compare the tall vs small effect, excluding most variables. Also could be cool if a tall and shorter climber both try those boulders, to see if there are differences in strenghts they have built up (like the taller climber being relatively better at fitting in small boxes and the smaller one at climbing more dynamically, because their length forces them to do that more)
I’m 6’2” and sometimes I do a move that I can barely reach while having 0 clue how to do it any other way and wonder how it’s remotely possible for someone a foot shorter than me. Always feels like cheating when I break the beta 😅
Thanks for admitting that
I'm 6'4" and when I'm breaking the beta I say, "Cheating!"
It’s so hard to accurately grade for tall people!! I have a gigantic 6’4 friend that just reaches through everything indoors…. I mean he’s sent V7 but was it V7 for him? Skipping 1/3 of the moves?
@@V8chump exactly!!!!!! And if he’s like the tall people that I know he swears that being tall and long doesn’t give him any type of advantage because he’ll point out the 1 climb in the gym that crunches him up or something😂😂🤣🤣
@@ABSVabeautifulsunsetvlog yep! I mean I’m average height 5’11” so most grades are pretty accurate for me and I immediately know what climbs I’m gonna hear about him doing. Literally v7s made v5s by reach alone 🤣 he’s strong as hell though all things said
I'm 6'2" climbing V5/V6. I find as I progress to more advanced/difficult boulders my height is less advantageous as taller people can have a hard time keeping hips close to the wall (specially overhangs) and you also find yourself in awkward positions on scrunched up moves as you struggle to shift your centre of gravity to the top of footholds (I'm flexible but sometimes there's just not enough space to accommodate my limbs!). I personally think tall vs short is 50-50, I'm great on slabs but overhangs are difficult. I have seen a Magnus video where he says he thinks at his level shorter is better. I just wish people wouldn't take it away from me after a good send (implying it's easier for me because of reach) as it's easy to see when my height is an advantage, but much harder for others to appreciate when it gets in the way 😂
Often I find the hardest part of some boulders is the starting box. I turn my arms into pretzels trying to stick to some walls.
@@Anubis_YT interesting you say pretzels, because I often feel like a floppy celery stick 😂
Well, the difference is also that flexibility and core strength can be trained, being taller cannot. So especially on slabs and other boulders that require stretched out poses, it can be literally impossible for small climbers.
I'm always envious of shorter climbers and their natural affinity for crimps and small boxes. That said, it's nice being able to skip holds that I don't like.
Also Teresa was great! Please bring her back for more videos!
Absolutely on the same page as you. I’m 6”0 and it’s definitely nice being better at dynos and being able to like you said skip stuff, but it would feel cool to feel the same as a less taller climber in terms of beta
As a tallish dude at 6'1 or 185cm, I find that there aren't many climbs I don't have a chance of sending. A girl I climb with is 5'4 (163cm) and there are many that seem like she has no chance of sending. There are many that I have an advantage or she has an advantage. At the end of the day I think tall people are less limited, but have a lower grade ceiling. Shorter people will encounter climbs they simply are too short to complete. Tall people will run into climbs where they are exerting far more energy than other people will need to. I have a +3" ape index which I think is a far bigger advantage than being tall.
Great video as usual 🙌🏻 Loved T!
And to add to the comment section discussion/debate re: height…..
Climbing is fun and none of us should use excuses. Just try harder. 😊
But adding info from Climbing article that states height has a clear advantage overall.
“Additionally, the most commonly shared beta is usually that suited for climbers of average height (5’7”-6’), who can more easily enjoy these crowdsourced sequences.
In a recent assessment of 500 climbers, Tom Randall and Ollie Torr of Lattice Training uncovered interesting data in regards to height.
In a Training Beta podcast, Torr stated, “ … there is relatively significant supporting evidence that suggests there is a difference in performance required for differing heights, with the taller climbers showing significant advantages in every single area except for core strength.” That is, due to their longer levers, taller climbers need more core strength at a given grade in order to optimize their limb/body length. But otherwise, they have an edge.”
To add a bit of context and nuances to this, this data is when discussing physical metrics e.g. taller climbers tend to express less relative finger strength and relative pulling strength for a given grade. But this is an observed trend animals in general. Larger athletes will not have the same potential for strength:weigth ratio. A good example of this is looking at weighted pull-up world records. Smaller athletes lift less but have greater relative strength. So the advantage is they 'need less' for a given grade but will also struggle to express the same as smaller athletes. The term advantage might be a bit ambiguous in this context. At the elite end of the spectrum very tall athletes tend to be less likely as very small holds become the limiting factor. The same is true for very small athletes however.
@@LatticeTraining
Thanks so much for the detailed response.
I’m a big fan of LT (esp Tom & WideBoyz😍) and value your knowledge.
(To add context to my reply- I’m a short female with a -3 AI, while my partner is 6 feet and a +3 AI.
He constantly complains that his height is an impediment and says I’m doing better than him because I’m shorter. Drives me bonkers.
So when I found the Climbing article with the LT info I excitedly showed it to him.
I honestly think it’s even overall with height at a slight advantage- so maybe 60/40 😄).
BTW, if Tom R happens to reads this : please say hi to Pete (your other crackipede partner) from me.
Big fan 💚
Would be good to see a really tall person climbing (like +6'4"). As a 6'6" climber I often feel limited by cramped climbs, especially when the start is cramped. I've had starts where I physically cannot fit in the space given!
Dude I’m 5’10” and even I feel crunched on some of these starts, couldn’t imagine how you feel! Kinda pisses me off though! 99% of the time it’s the very first move that’s too crunched…. Why wouldn’t they just make the 3 or 4 start holds a foot higher off the ground…..from the very start of the setting process? 😑 I’ve climbed v9 and sometimes get crunched to death on a v6 start, so damn frustrating
T was great to watch! Very positive and encouraging. She’d be fun to climb with; need that short person beta.
I NEEEEED more T content. PLEASE!!!
I recently started climbing and I'm 2.08m/6'10". With some routes I noticed I could skip some parts which made it alot easier but generally I feel like I'm at a disadvantage. I seem to struggle with overhangs alot and also the smaller holds due to a lack of finger strength. I've been enjoying bouldering alot lately so in the end I just have to keep getting stronger and improve my technique to get better at it, disadvantages or not.
You should start recording some climbs!
Guarantee you people would love to watch your giant's beta!
This was such a great example of how climbing is really friendly and supportive while still being competitive 💞
The thing I tell myself a lot is Lynn Hill is shorter than me, to try and cut off my thoughts about being too small for certain moves. Kinda been working so far ^^
V5-V7ish and under tall people. Above that, depends on the climb.
Everyone says it's great to be tall because most people will never climb past V4, and those routes can easily be cheesed with reach. Once you start climbing upper grades the mechanical advantage of shorter levers is so much more beneficial than a few inches of reach. That's why the best of the best are like 165-170cm.
Isn’t the real issue not what is the most advantageous height, but rather, how accurate the grade is for a given height? And if grading is by consensus (outdoors at least) then won’t the average grade reflect the average climber- male, 5’9”ish? I assume grades in Japan would skew toward a shorter average. In areas where the first ascentionists were a bunch of big dudes (Hueco Tanks) the grades tend to reflect that -big moves between big holds get low grades and crimpy scrunchy lines get higher grades. Another example- Adam Henry’s original grades at HP40. Or Dai Koyamada’s notoriously stiff grades everywhere! As the percentage of women in climbing goes up the sport will have to take their experiences into consideration. As more women participate, this will bring down the average height of climbers, and the grading system will probably tend to favor a shorter climber than it does now. I’m also interested in seeing how women’s physiological differences, aside from height(better hip turnout, smaller fingers/levers, lighter weight), are reflected in future grades. This all applies to outdoor grades, of course. Indoors, the grades probably favor the average height of the routesetters as opposed to the average height of the climbers, but I don’t have so much experience climbing in gyms so maybe my logic is wrong there.
I think the average height of the route setters probably matters for sure, because I'm always in a Uni gym currently so there's only like 3 guys as route setters that are all over 6'2" so they set 5.9's with borderline impossible dyno's for a 5' 6" guy even though I can knock out most 5.9's outdoors.
"As more women participate, this will bring down the average height of climbers, and the grading system will probably tend to favor a shorter climber than it does now." I've been climbing for over 20 years and the opposite has happened. The shift to indoor climbing and especially bouldering using huge holds has made things harder for the short. The old style setting from the 90s based on creating the type of moves you find climbing trad or sport outdoors is friendlier to short climbers because it is more about footwork.
Would you make a video where you have pairs of identical boulders, but one of the pair is 20% bigger than the other one (including the size of crimps etc) and see if the smaller or bigger problems feel harder.
That would be interesting! I always thought such a comparison would be super interesting to show who's really the better climber.
Good vid, but two thoughts. The general debate should really be more focused on ape-index instead of height, since that's way more significant. It's not about being tall on the wall, it's about being able to reach. Secondly I think that being tall is easier to overcome, since flexibility and strength are properties that are trainable opposed to reach which is just a static property.
Yes true! T has +3cm Ape, I have -2cm Ape. But height still effects reaching vertically which is why it often comes into discussion. I think when we reach more elite grades Ape Index will be a more significant factor because the distribution of height differences starts to narrow.
Arm span is more important though, since that's what defines how far you can reach, not ape index
Great vid. My take-away is play to your strong suits when your outside trying to send your hardest grade and don’t get wrapped up in what your friends are trying if it doesn’t suit you.
Please more content with T. !
I think that in sport climbing where a lot of the climbs are vertical, taller climbers have somewhat of an advantage because of their reach. Whereas in bouldering where you may have more roof type climbs being “shorter” could serve as an advantage because of the shorter limb thing. Always glad though to hear taller climbers admit that there are times when being taller is more beneficial (vertical climbs with big moves). As it gets annoying climbing with someone taller (I’m 5’7”) who is constantly telling you to “just reach over and grab the next hold” (“just” is really triggering for me 😂😂😂). Great video guys
yeah the "JUST" lol!!!! It's never "just" when we're struggling on reach it's a complicated series of calculations about body position, momentum, whether the other arm will be able to hold if we cut loose or barn door etc etc.... taller climbers just don't know lmao
Shorter only helps to a certain point with roof climbs I think, though. My biggest struggle with overhang at the moment is that I can tell a couple inches would mean I'm 95% extended and not 100% and could actually keep pressure on that foot... otherwise I have to campus I guess? It makes holding tension on those footholds tough! I really feel like average height climbers 5'5-5'10 ish have an advantage. 5'0 with a negative 2" APE is just downright frustrating at times.
Cool video and T has a great attitude. She should have picked a corner or stemmy route. Sometimes those routes just completely shutdown a tall person if they don't fit into it.
The biggest advantage I have being a short climber is that it makes me fearless to big moves and I'm not afraid of falling.
I think being shorter is good because you learn to be explosive and do coordination dynos earlier in your progression plus you are lighter. I'm 1,90 and have good shoulder strenght so I can static a lot of stuff that should not be staticed, also very good hip flexibility so staying close to the wall, gastoning, heelhooking, kneebaring I can offset my lack of relative fingerstrength quite well (at 80kg I'm on the heavier side for a competitive climber) but the moment I have to get dynamic, I struggle quite a bit, everything but a simple vert is tough
I have those yellow Capital holds and they are super tough on any angle beyond vertical. You can make some really wrestly problems with them.
the problem usually isnt really height. Small people and tall people have their advantages, the problem is usually the route setting. As a small setter, who regularly makes tall people struggle, i can tell you that it would be different if people of all heights would set routes at an equal rate, but tall people seem to be more likely to set routes, from my experience.
I think it depends really on the situation, and it s kind of what your experience shows as well. I am pretty tall (1m90) and I often get told that it is easier for me but I disagree. On the big reachy moves of course but what about this frog position when the holds are so close together. Also the leverage is higher when the limbs are longer... so it really depends. Anyway thanks for your content :)
i think on outside boulders or climbs its way different. small people can use smaller holds for example while in the gym there is most times nothing in between, but also sometimes i can get a hold earlier that is way out of reach for smallies.
I'd say that taller climbers have it easier early on in climbing (V0-6), but that shorter climbers tend to have more advantages when you get into the high levels (v9+). That said, I feel like ape index and flexibility tend to be more important than height among the climbers I know.
Depends on the routes and if the route setters made it with the height in mind, in my gym some routes were so unfair for short people because they became straight up hard dynos while the taller people just statically did it easy which is always so annoying to see, while you have access to some moves if you're shorter I feel like those are less useful or seen in routes overall than the advantage taller people get.
Cool Format! Can you extend the time up to 8 or 10 Minutes though?
For some problems fatigue is too big of a factor that hinder Teresa from finding shorty beta.
for lower grade stuff it is definitely an advantage to be tall, as you can just reach from jug to jug/ledge to ledge. but for mid grades upwards it is definitely an advantage to be shorter and smaller. sure there will be a small handfull of routes/ problems which you just physically cant do, no matter how strong you get, as the reach is impossible, but on average, shorter levers make for more efficient climbing, and smaller hands and feet make the holds effectively bigger. plus you are carrying less dead weight.
I really like having a completely average height for climbing. It naturally avoids the trap of blaming my height for anything, while also preventing the issues with some specific boulders where being either too small or too tall could be an issue. And it also avoids the trap of skipping holds "because you can" and creating weak points in training for later.
When you're average, almost every boulder is just right for you.
People of average height 100% have the advantage. Enough reach not to be a hindrance, but not enough to get in the way.
My two cents on it is that if you look at the sport as a whole, average height seems to be optimal because while it has fewer distinct advantages it also doesn't suffer from as many major disadvantages. It is also what almost all routes are designed for. If you are comparing only tall vs short though I'd argue that short has an advantage in bouldering because a ton of boulders are set in a way that requires compression that is impossible for a tall person to achieve if they attempt to do the intended beta while setters very rarely will set a move that will be impossible for smaller climbers.
I feel for top rope it is the opposite where being tall tends to offer the ability to skip difficult moves so long as the route doesn't have any oppressively compressed moves that are difficult for taller climbers.
For lead I'd say short has n advantage just because they will pump less when clipping.
Overall though it comes down to the individual and how they are able to overcome the disadvantages of their stature. As a tall climber (6'3") myself, though, my biggest pet peeve is when a boulder is a first move crux that requires extreme compression. It feels so horrible when I can't even come close to starting like a cruisy V2 because the first move is a physical impossibility for my limb length.
Are they really impossible though? Ondra is 6’1”, do you think that he can also not climb your V2? Maybe you just need to train more?
@@mx2000 Good point, I just need to be the best climber in the world. I didn’t consider that…
@@ryancooper3629lol!
3:09 nice one, cruised, i was doing 3 oranges a sessh in depot but could not touch that purple at all haha
looking for aneditor to make the vid look more like an action competition?
I'm 6'0 and I think being tall helps more. There are many times I've done climbs and knew if I was a few inches shorter that I couldn't.
Just different disadvantages, when you are taller you generally carry more weight and have a harder time training your core. When you are shorter obviously you can't reach as far but your strength to weight ratio is generally much better. Both can be mediated by specific training.
Simply not true to say shorter climbers are lighter unless you take into account gender differences. Female climbers have a much higher % body fat than male climbers (otherwise the women stop menstruating and a bunch of health problems kick in including a plunge in bone density).
@@sarahpemberton4089 just in general, yes in specific individual cases shorter climbers can be heavier than taller climbers. It is one of the great equalizers in climbing that for different body types different beta and different training can produce the same end results.
there are elite climbers between 150-190cm (4'11-6'2). I saw that hip mobility/flexibility was considered to be a particularly great asset for a taller climber to help with power efficiency but I guess when it comes down to shorter climbers flat power/strength training probably yeilds much greater improvement than it would for a taller climber who needs to focus on the nuances of (as mentioned above) how to most efficiently move there heavier bodies up a wall. having said that though I feel like if climbing becomes a more defined sport we will see more consistent body types in specific disciplines
Our global survey actually showed that as the grades get harder e.g. V12+ the distribution of height gets narrower. But its still around 175cm which might be considered short for the general population. We are going to do an Insta post on this soon.
@@LatticeTraining I saw that Ashima Shirashi was 154cm and I Ondra at 186cm both very capable of V12+ assents (I think Shirashi has sent V15) so I find it interesting to see a trend leaning towards a shorter climbing population with the more extremes being quite capable of being top tier athletes. Will definitely keep an eye out for the insta post :) It may be a well covered talking point but the data it's self feels rarely talked about.
@@baxleblue4329yes both these athlete are an example of how data shows a trend but does not define a rule. We will always see outliers. Interestingly both of these athletes have exceptional flexibility!
@@LatticeTraining according to a 3 second google search (doesn’t prove accuracy) male average height in the U.K. in 5’9” or 176cm so the average height of a v12+ climber is inline with gen pop.
@@baxleblue4329 Ondra is a bit of an outlier at 186 cm though. Most of the males in the field are between 170 and 180 cm in height.
T has such an amazing spirit!
I feel like forced static climbing or beta breaks that allow them to skip dynamic moves are easier for longer limbed people but forced dynamic boulders without beta breaks vastly favor people with shorter limbs.
Also, weight is often heavily correlated with height so there is another advantage for short climbers there as well.
What Hannah said, really fun to watch.
The move @5:05 is the one move that I have trouble with all the time on harder boulders/routes -- when you have to lock off and reach for a hold that is STILL too far for you. And then your partner who is just 4 inches taller just reaches and grabs that hold with NO effort. So frustrating.
Cool to see all these old people bouldering in the backround
Well, I do believe that we must focus on the technique, instead if you are tall or small, a lot of climbers focus in the wrong things first, become like an ape an only use your arms or find differences between another climbers. Just focus on the technique and develope a strong mind.
Being tall lets you have an occasional cheat code, being small means the day-to-day moves are easier and take less energy. You can squeeze out dynamic moves in places where a taller climber will get stuck, fit the box for wacky static stuff, and be more lenient with staying close to the wall (because there's less leverage to pull you off). It's almost a perfect tradeoff in reality but shorter climbers often think they're more limited by their height and don't think about the benefits they enjoy from it because it's easy to see when being too short is making a move harder and hard to see the small benefit you get in normal moves.
If you don't believe me, look at the fact that professional climbers as a whole aren't taller or shorter than the average in their country/region. Height changes how you climb quite a lot, and even changes the types of climbs that are doable or impossible for you, but it doesn't have any real effect on the general difficulty of climbing.
p.s. This isn't an issue of shorter climbers being irrational in some way, it's basic cognitive biases not some character flaw. I think everyone can become a better climber by recognizing biases and trying to account for them.
It all depends on the setting. Based from observations on ISFC events, they tend toward reachy moves rather than moves that require small build fitting through. It's really hard to think of problems that will affect taller climbers. Most times they can just skip holds if the setters haven't thought of it. Then top holds are usually jump moves which taller climbers basically just short jump while almost impossible for short collect climbers except those with exceptional leaping ability
I know a lot of short climbers see the reach of tall climbers and just assume it's universally better, and I understand that reach is a very very VERY useful feature to have, but as a tall climber myself there are times where my limbs feel like they get in my way, especially my legs. I'm sure that can be overcome with better flexibility but at least within my own personal experience and observations height isn't always a plus. And that's before I realized smaller body = smaller hands = crimps and matching advantage. I still don't think it's a perfect 50-50 tradeoff, but probably 60-40?
The thing that I always ask myself as a 5’7” guy when climbing with tall guys is “what is his technique like?” If a tall climber has crafted good technique then it really doesn’t matter that they’re tall because they’d probably be as good even if they were short. BUT when I climb with tall guys who literally have crap technique but can skip holds and not have to cut feet ever and can always reach holds so never really have to be balanced, that’s when I get a little miffed because nothing is worse than climbing with someone who has a big ego who you know would be trash if they were short. And I am noticing that as I progress through the grades more and more tall climbers are being left behind or strictly like to climb on vertical climbs where they can lean on their reach
My husband is tall with excellent technique and he would definitely tell you that the effects are additive -- at least for bouldering. For example, he'll often use footholds on an adjacent walls or volumes that less technical lank climbers don't think to use and that non-lank climbers can't reach from the handholds. He regularly wanders up to someone's project, saunters up it, and leaves them flummoxed because they don't have his reach or his technique. The benefit of his height is _far_ more apparent bouldering than in trad or sport, though.
T should have picked a nice long and low traverse.
I climb with my son. He's about 5'10"/5'11". It frustrates me when he tells me to reach a hold he has no problem with and I'm at least six inches short in the reach. I'm a little over 5'5".
Imo the harder the climb the more the weight counts instead of height. Especially on rope. But generally if you cant do a move, you are simply too weak, not to short or too high :D
More from/with T.! She is very cool 👍🏼🙂
Thank you!
great video! but 5'11 definitely isn't particularly tall whilst 5'1 is definitely short. Would be good to see 5'1 against 6'3 !
Being tall will objectively lead to more possible options because you can reach more holds (potentially requiring more flexibility though) which offsets the increased difficulty of moves due to extra weight and longer levers.
If a move is not morpho (fine regardless of height) then it’s almost always gonna be easier if you’re shorter (lighter,smaller fingers on average etc.) but there are more cases where something becomes nearly impossible if you are too short than things being impossible due to too tall, especially indoors.
Why would you be carrying extra weight as a tall person compared to a short person of equivalent general height/weight ratio? Proportionally taller people tend to have have larger everything, which includes muscles and tendons, so I don’t see this argument about extra weight really playing out. Unless I’m missing something?
Being tall will NOT "objectively" always lead to more options, as some positions are physically impossible (just from a pure physics/friction perspective) if you are too bunched up and your weight is forced too far out from the wall. It does provide more options most of the time, but definitely not always.
@@jimmahgee My understanding is that the force a muscle can generate is proportional to its cross-sectional area, not its total volume. So as you increase the size of everything linearly, strength will scale as a square (area of a circle = πr^2) but weight will scale as a cube (4/3 πr^3), meaning that weight "outpaces" strength as you scale everything up, essentially.
I've always thought of this as the reason why ants can carry many times their body weight, tho if someone is more knowledgeable please correct me!
@@jimmahgee You are. There is a reason why animals can only grow to a certain size. If they get any bigger, they can't support their own mass.
It is known as the square-cube law.
This principle states that, as a shape grows in size, its volume grows faster than its surface area. When applied to the real world, this principle has many implications which are important in fields ranging from mechanical engineering to biomechanics. It helps explain phenomena including why large mammals like elephants have a harder time cooling themselves than small ones like mice, and why building taller and taller skyscrapers is increasingly difficult.
@@dancer2234 This is exactly correct.
I feel like taller people have some advantage at the start of their climbing journey, which evens out on higher grades (V8+). I saw it number of times in my gym with newcomers. I know - anecdotal evidence. :)
I love Teresa, her energy reminds me of Oriane Bertone !
Awww thank you 😊🥰
Only thing I can really think of that’s a disadvantage for shorter climbers is the reach. But the shorter climbers got good grip
Try being 6”5! It’s another painful, depressing story all together hahahah
Anyone noticed the old dude at 4:05 lol? Huge respect though!
At an advanced level being tall is actually is a disadvantage. Most of the best outdoor or competition boulderers or climbers are below average height. In Sport where height is an advantage the pro athletes are way taller. This is caused by simple physic ( cube square law, longer levers, w = f x d, proportionally less surface area on holds, crimps are proportionally smaller, more momentum when cutting loose) who lead to decrease in strength to weight ratio with increasing height ( the same physics cause pro gymnasts to be short). Theoretically one could calculate the percentage impact of those factors in strength to weight ratio , but it is very hard to calculate the positiv impact of height and longer limbs into climbing performance as every problem is different. Taller climbers are more disadvantaged on overhangs than on vertical climbs.
In conclusion you can see that top tall climbers are always physically weaker than shorter climbers but sometimes can use their longer reach as an advantage. The optimal height is 5’5” to 5’9” for men and 5’2 to 5’6” for women.
Question to everyone:
In my opinion competition boulders and routes should be set to favor tall people due to the fact that if there are no moves that favor tall people short people will always have the advantage because they are stronger. Do you also think high level setting should be fair?
Fun video! T's a beast.
🙈 Thank you 😁
The problem with being tall is finger and toe size! Having long fingers and toes makes small holds even smaller! Im 5’10” but I have the hands and feet of a much taller person, size 13 shoes and extra large glove size. My arms and legs are also short for my height. I feel like I have the worst of both worlds. I hate crimps and small foot holds😢
are you equaly strong and climb the same grade atm?
Depends on style. We recently climbed on a Kilter board together and anything that was twisty and technical I (Josh) did quicker but anything square on and crimpy T would do quicker. I would say T has a much better strength:weight ratio than me at the moment but often needs to use it when jumping to a crimp I can reach with my feet on. I think we show a similar level indoors but very different preferred styles. I am also recovering from a pulley injury in this video (only just hanging bodyweight with 2 hands on 20mm edge) so I am not moving confidently on crimps. Hence the hesitation jumping to the orange crimp.
Being shorter means being overall smaller. I'm not high myself (5"8') but for my friend who is around 4"8' crimps are like jugs to me. Her fingers are so much smaller that she can fit them much better in smaller holds
Reach matters, and I feel bad because I sometimes just cheat sections with my reach, but then get jealous when I see shorties kill the sit starts, which I feel like are a cruel joke to me.
The grass always greener on the other size.
Somehow *all* of these height comparison videos feature a pretty average tall climber (“I am good at slabs”) and a decidedly above average short climber. 🧐
I believe at the time it was fairly balanced. Short was climbing around V8 and tall around V9.
It's very easy to set a buolder that is impossible for taller climbers. Just add a traverse with tiny friction holds, getting very close to the foot holds. Physically impossible for the big ones. It's very difficult to set something that an insanely strong (but short) climber can't do, but a much taller one can.
The only real way to fuck over a short climber is to have very wide compression moves on small holds without the possibility of using your feet in place of hands so they literally cannot reach the holds and cannot progress up the wall. For example, on the 2017 moonboard there is a v11 called xl wood that short people cannot do with the intended beta as they just cannot reach the second and third move, however they can do alternate beta that makes the climb about the same difficulty in the end
differing genders, experience, and strength are massive factors though, so do not expect this to be very accurate
Linus climb tips
more T! she was very cool!
I'm surprised they did not promote her channel if she has one or even give her credit by posting her name.
T works here at Lattice but if you are interested
😀 www.youtube.com/@TeresaCityofPortugal/featured
Can we get a collab with Kevin Durant to see if being tall is an advantage?
Why are Josh's toe nails blue?
As a tall climber, I find that it's an advantage about 85% of the time, but the 15% of the time that it's not its often really hard. Most frequently when I have an issue it's on the start or first move. Obviously small boxes are tough but also I often feel like I have to try much harder when keeping tension on upside down holds placed around my waist that require opposition from my feet to get into position.
Better? Couldn't say - the only variable to me is that tall people have an advantage of, well, being tall! Hence the term "tall beta"
Abraços de Portugal :)
The only time being tall is an advantage for me is with the easy routes. That's it. Everyone always show a tall man vs short woman and being a tall woman is all the negatives but none of the positives of having muscle growth with minimal training from testosterone.
I bet Teresa was at a disadvantage because most route setters are closer to 5'11" than 5'1"
Interesting point. We would hope route setters will have the skill and experience to set for different heights. Here in Sheffield most of our route setters are less than 5'11" and we have a good amount of female route setters. I've even heard that the shorter route setters can have a bias to bigger more powerful moves because they rationalise it with "if I can do the move then it's possible for shorter climbers".
@@LatticeTraining That's nice to hear. Where I am there a bit of a gender inbalance in route setting skewed towards men.
Linus tech tips climbs ?!! No way!!!
i mean, yes, but also.. dude seems better than linus on the being human kinda side of things. 🙈
Old dude at 7:21 that's me in 50 years
Two words at 5'1" LYNN HILL !!!
Boooora Teresa!💪💪💪
Makes tall vs short video, doesn't invite tall climber
tall debate but video is about hand size
I think these two anatomical features are quite linked. Maybe the perfect combo is being tall, with small hands, and long pinkie fingers 😂
@@LatticeTraining I'm short with big hands 😭
@@sakkiebasson2052 you've always got narrow compression on slopers to excel at! 🤷
Tall vs short, who comes out on top? People of average height...
I think the height difference evens out around v9-v10+. This is coming from a 6'3" 220 pound climber
can you tell me what you do for you fingerstrenght and tendons? it seems like i always injure my pulleys when i reach a certain level of strenght / grad of boulder...
and i would disagree at v9+ shouldnt it be even more influeced? like, you still have these reachy big moves, and on the other hand micro crimps in overhangs...
@@TheValinov oh I do too. But I think that's one of the downfalls of being taller, idk. Ive torn muscles and broken fingers much more frequently than anyone else I climb with. But I mainly just climb, and for finger strength I'll climb on my home board which is just small, outdoor like crimps
@@TheValinov there's certain problems but I mean the reach issue evens out because you're not really skipping holds on v10; maybe sometimes, but that's just my opinion
In my opinion, average height is best. And by that I mean: average male height. That's because it's mostly men grading problems, both indoors and out. So naturally, the difficulty they give a problem means how difficult it is for their size. The further away a climber is from that, the less the grade will fit. In my experience, being way shorter will usually make it harder up to almost impossible, whereas being taller usually makes it a bit to a lot easier and sometimes they'll just need different beta. I've yet to see my tall friends unable to finish a problem just because of their height.
What I really don't get are all the comments on weight. Sure those extra kilos give you more to pull, but who says short climbers are light? They can be on the larger side, too. Tall climbers can work on their weight, finger and core strength and flexibility. I can't make my arms longer to reach that compression move or tiny hold on the slab.
...if weight were such an advantage over height, shouldn't females (and kids?) climb harder than males?
@@PS-nm8wk there are other biological factors responsible for men being stronger, more explosive etc. And still sex gap in lead climbing is smaller than in almost any other physical sport. Wonder if it has anything to do with weight and flexibility difference... Or we just assume women are way way more technicaly efficient by default?
@@PS-nm8wk and while everybody is only mentioning weight - dont forget that 14 mm hold will for small people be of the same relative size as 8 mm for big. Try to hang both and compare what you feel...
@@user-sc9ud8wh3t I think you got your numbers confused? Also, while I agree I'm rather short, I'm pretty confident that there's no one out there that are almost twice as tall as I am.
I agree, however, that a small hold might be easier for me to hold, IF I can reach it (and the according footholds)
@@PS-nm8wk which number did i get confused in your opinion..?
bro you're not even 6 feet cmon broooo