Having Psychological egoism isn't black and white thinking, we always act with psychological egoism yet it doesnt constitute the whole picture, you can feel altruistic,compassionate, and having self interest subconsciously at the same time or it can be the other way around you think you're only having self interest yet you're also subconsciously caring to someone.The degree of psychological egoism is what should be the matter not the subject itself.Pyschological egoism doesn't make you an evil person, it's innate to us.
This completely omits that you have to figure out what is good for you in the long term, for example what education to take, which place to move to and how to pick your friends. True, one cannot get very far without cooperation, but you need to figure out who to cooperate with, and who benefits how much. All while playing win-win games as much as possible.
The idea is that to truly operate in one's own interest you must by extension also help others, other wise you are just acting selfishly in the moment. To cause harm to others will eventually harm yourself. The title is misleading, self-interest doesn't exist in the manner that is often promoted in the mainstay
Well, you can't truly act selfish, especially if there are different things are drive you, you do it because some malevolent or belevolent forces, let's say control you. So you still act out not your rational or conscious self. You do it for the pleasure that you want deep down, that is part of you, but also it's not selfish because you are actually harming yourself in the future, by maybe doing something and then what happens is that you feel guilty or regret. So I think, you cannot be truly selfish either. You are not 1 thing, you are parts and it all acts for multiple things, your own demonds and geniis have a profound war deep down in you. They maybe doing it to their own ends, but since you are partly what makes them, you are actually doing it for them, to their own needs. And god knows how many of those things that, let's say drive you, are down there.
Whether you're acting in self-interest for yourself in 1 second like a guy who is addicted to drugs versus someone who is self-interested for himself in the long term by studying in a class he doesn't enjoy studying, doesn't matter. You perceive both as self-interest as you believe it benefits you. A murderer in prison while committing the crime was still acting in what he perceived was his self-interest, even if most people would agree he didn't, because now he is in prison for the rest of his life. Now is psychological egoism redundant since you can still act in altruistic ways under it? Maybe, but I still believe it to be true.
F.A. Hayek cautioned against this. He referred to this as False Individualism and claimed that it could easily lead to collectivism and/or the centralization of power. If an individual’s self-interest, morality, etc could be reduced solely to rational thought, then all decisions can be planned and made for the individual by a central authority. You can extrapolate this further into what we’ve seen from many sci-fi narratives that have been written about. How important is freedom, (or to what extent is freedom essential to a society?) if a central authority can plan and make all the decisions for you? After all, they are purely rationalized and therefore can be deduced, created, and implemented by anyone who holds rationality at the highest regards. In Rand’s defense though, her objectivism includes other important values besides rationality and Individualism.
@@csfischer007 “rational self-interest” on what benefits you and me severally. That must be decided by us, ourselves. Good point though in when the objective truth is such that it’s universal and can be decided by an all powerful third party. That’s a new thought. The rational self-interest described would be as in individual preferences, carrers, not everyone wants the same thing and what’s good in the short run (Bernie Maddoff) is not necessarily rational in the long run. Rand talks about not sacrificing ever because ultimately, a ‘sacrifice’ consists of postponing what is good for what is better, so it’s not really a sacrifice when you lay off going to the beach to study. You go for the higher value and hence, it’s not a sacrifice nor self-immolation.
@Cool Boomer thats something that Alan Watts has said, that you cannot experience you without the other and its inseparable which is why its in our best interest to make the world a good place to live in and preserve some things, the root for that is seflishness, if selfishness is no more than a concept then the attachment also be one and that makes no sense, he admits that. Its a complete nom sequitur to suggest that "because it's an attachment that we have to do some good things" but not only is that obvious but its only half true because if i value my life then not wanting the world to blow up isnt something good i have to consider, its simply self interest that i dont want the world to blow up therefor its not something one feels like they have to do. The only thing you should feel like you have to do are things in your own self interest which is unavoidable and is also the reason why JP obviously misses the point when he brings up drugs or drinking, there are universal truths and history that tell us what is and isnt in our self interest being things like drinking, getting obese. I could go on and on but the point is he said some obvious things and made non sequitur comparisons. Saying self interest doesn't take into account that we aren't separate is 100% false and thats the focal point of whats being advertised.
@Cool Boomer it already has. What do you think capitalism comes from in the western world. You have the wrong impression of what altruism and selfishness means. The world already works on selfishness. When a soldier jumps on a grenade the only person he is worried about is himself because he cant bare to watch his brothers get blown up, and this is what we call pure selfishness, its not about wrong or right its about being able to use reason for yourself, i really cant explain this you would have to watch ayn rand or yaron because you arent understanding what it means to be self interested, living a sacrificial life not only doesnt work but makes everyone miserable hence communism, only there is only one person and thats you this whole past present future is nonsense when you are being selfish you have to think it aswell and use reason, its unreasonable to get what you want by killing and lying and its in your best self interest that you dont. Like i said again i could go on all day but when it comes to understanding what it means to be selfish you have to go check ayn rand or yaron because they go through it perfectly like examples of should a woman sacrifice herself for someone because if she leaves them they will feel bad.
With the conclusion about Buddha, I think it's not well formulated (ironically expressed from a cognitive technology approach, which is surprising coming from Jordan Peterson) it's more about how you articulate yourself when doing something by compassion (like saving an insect life) by the what's in your heart/your act in the world/your perception are synchronized in the movement. I talk here as being a musician which is very useful to me. And I now realize that what we call "flow state of mind" is this last principle which most of the so-called specialists don't understand I believe.
The part about time doesn't seem like much of an objection. It's future you that matters. Because there is the biggest payoff if you have self control. The rest of it when compared to say someone like Ayn Rand seems to be a distinction without a difference. And what is self interest? Epictetus who talked a bit about self interest also said that having a pre conception is one thing and defining it is another. So nothing really new in Peterson or the psychologists he cites. Look after your self interest yes. But think about what that really means.
well the well being of my partner or the other he tallks about, is part of self intrest, wether its sexual financial, having kids, being happy... for multiple reasons. Thus self intrest is alive and well, i dont understand
So you made it that your partner's well-being is synonymous with yours, which is what he says. He also adds that the community's well-being is also synonymous with yours because you're part of it. You're not disassociated from it in any fundamental sense, maybe it's not as strong of a link as to that with your partner, but it's still a link.
In my opinion, being totally selfless does not exist. To be totally selfless, you would get no gain in giving something up. No gain in emotion-nothing. If you DO give something up and you do not receive any gain, then you are simply a fake. You are TRYING to be altruistic. You do not have someone’s best interest at heart when you do not feel any gain. In a lot of cases, our self-interests exist in one another, and I think that is a beautiful thing. I have no idea if I repeated the same thing this guy said...oh well. I’m putting this comment out here because I think life would be scary for someone who all of a sudden thought their love and care for someone/something was just “selfish”.
Is it not though? Is not love self interested? It’s a mutual contract with another individual. Which is why people don’t give it away carelessly (some obviously do but we often see them as morally worthless.) Love and action has merit. It is self interested. Otherwise, why not give your entire wealth, health, and charity to every single person you meet? Even if you were to be charitable or “selfless” it ultimately fails do to the inclination to fill a void of self interest. You are with someone you love because you don’t want them to be with someone else. You value them out of self interest, you want them to be happy out of self interest. We often attribute selfishness as a negative trait but would you consider health selfish? Or economic stability selfish? Is it wrong? No. I think the quickest way to understand is there are good forms of selfishness and negative aspects of selfishness.
I've been thinking about this for like weeks without end and now I can finally start to think about more in a more appropriate way. I just don't know how to call this, this thing like. You do it for your own interest, obviouisly so you are selfish at the beginning. But you are also doing it so people's life around you is better. So that would be, maybe true altruism, but I don't think it is since it is in your own interest. So basically you have got to give before you can do anything for yourself, in a way, I think. So I don't know what to call this. Is it just, self-intrest all together? If you are part of everything then, part of history of mankind, part of the universe and your enviroment, part of your species, part of what makes you as a being, like molecules and atoms and whatever lies beyond that. It's so weird. To act to help others, but you are doing it for yourself. Or you can't do it without helping yourself first?
We are talking about self interest as a guiding principle in the life of man. This play around with the definition i.e. "I will take a gun a rob a bank because of self interest" is ridiculous. Just wasted 5 minutes.
This dichotomy is at the core of my biggest problems. I'm the most empathic person I know. I'm a bleeding heart. Don't ask me how I was born this way, but I was. People been telling me my whole life I need to focus more on myself........but I'm just naturally more selfless than the average joe. It goes against MY self-interest.........being so in tune with others emotions and so empathetic and compassionate............to NOT include other people's needs, to a certain extent, in the equation called ME. I'd go so far as to say........I'm terrible, at the being egoistic. It literally feels like a closing of my heart....and my love for people......and quite frankly, when compared to sucessfully egoistic people........I just don't have the same levels of aggression or belief in the righteouness of my wants. My empathy makes me a very very ineffective egoistic person. When I fully embrace my selflessness..........which is based on nothing more than the desire to STOP the suffering i feel when I feel other people suffering around me...........I usually do a much better good job............and organically become much better at actually seperating what is mine and what is the other person..........which takes me to a lot more objective view of MYSELF in relation to all these other folks. I think the world is comprised of souls with different predispositions and levels of empathy...........and so the confusions around this topic come from the fact we DON'T all FEEL the same. Some people are just not as empathic......they'll never understand how someone might desire to be so selfless. And vice-versa. On a whole though, it's undeniable that the human race is evolving towards more selflessness...........WHY? Because it IS the only way to survive because, whether we want to or not, we are interdependent on one another. Corona is a prime example of this........or the markets..............everything affects everything these days.............well, it was always the case........we just felt we were more isolated from one another because as a species we were less AWARE. With increased awareness we are like............oh.......we are actually fucking each other over by not inclduing one another's best interest into OUR individual equation. Some believe it's still possible............but they are the ones who are not expericing much JOY in this life. They may SEEM like they have their needs met............but at the core, there is no inner peace. You can't have inner peace in this fucked up wowrld if you don't feel you are contributing to the well being of tohers around you in some way.
Well, however you look at it the goal in life is to not be lonely. So you need people to stick around and like you, you don’t get that by being selfish. Secondly, happiness is generally achieved through self betterment. Helping others feels good for a time, making money feels good for a time. But being a better person who becomes useful to those around you that you care about is the real way to happiness as it’s purpose. If you’re not doing the above, then you might want to get on that path.
Great clip. So many nuggets of gold. Glad people are bringing them up to the surface.
Having Psychological egoism isn't black and white thinking, we always act with psychological egoism yet it doesnt constitute the whole picture, you can feel altruistic,compassionate, and having self interest subconsciously at the same time or it can be the other way around you think you're only having self interest yet you're also subconsciously caring to someone.The degree of psychological egoism is what should be the matter not the subject itself.Pyschological egoism doesn't make you an evil person, it's innate to us.
This completely omits that you have to figure out what is good for you in the long term, for example what education to take, which place to move to and how to pick your friends.
True, one cannot get very far without cooperation, but you need to figure out who to cooperate with, and who benefits how much.
All while playing win-win games as much as possible.
You remind me that self actualization requires constant attention and navigation.
The idea is that to truly operate in one's own interest you must by extension also help others, other wise you are just acting selfishly in the moment. To cause harm to others will eventually harm yourself. The title is misleading, self-interest doesn't exist in the manner that is often promoted in the mainstay
Well, you can't truly act selfish, especially if there are different things are drive you, you do it because some malevolent or belevolent forces, let's say control you. So you still act out not your rational or conscious self. You do it for the pleasure that you want deep down, that is part of you, but also it's not selfish because you are actually harming yourself in the future, by maybe doing something and then what happens is that you feel guilty or regret. So I think, you cannot be truly selfish either. You are not 1 thing, you are parts and it all acts for multiple things, your own demonds and geniis have a profound war deep down in you. They maybe doing it to their own ends, but since you are partly what makes them, you are actually doing it for them, to their own needs. And god knows how many of those things that, let's say drive you, are down there.
Whether you're acting in self-interest for yourself in 1 second like a guy who is addicted to drugs versus someone who is self-interested for himself in the long term by studying in a class he doesn't enjoy studying, doesn't matter. You perceive both as self-interest as you believe it benefits you. A murderer in prison while committing the crime was still acting in what he perceived was his self-interest, even if most people would agree he didn't, because now he is in prison for the rest of his life. Now is psychological egoism redundant since you can still act in altruistic ways under it? Maybe, but I still believe it to be true.
Then what am i
Ayn Rand called it "rational self-interest," what moves the world.
F.A. Hayek cautioned against this. He referred to this as False Individualism and claimed that it could easily lead to collectivism and/or the centralization of power.
If an individual’s self-interest, morality, etc could be reduced solely to rational thought, then all decisions can be planned and made for the individual by a central authority.
You can extrapolate this further into what we’ve seen from many sci-fi narratives that have been written about. How important is freedom, (or to what extent is freedom essential to a society?) if a central authority can plan and make all the decisions for you? After all, they are purely rationalized and therefore can be deduced, created, and implemented by anyone who holds rationality at the highest regards.
In Rand’s defense though, her objectivism includes other important values besides rationality and Individualism.
@@csfischer007 “rational self-interest” on what benefits you and me severally. That must be decided by us, ourselves. Good point though in when the objective truth is such that it’s universal and can be decided by an all powerful third party. That’s a new thought. The rational self-interest described would be as in individual preferences, carrers, not everyone wants the same thing and what’s good in the short run (Bernie Maddoff) is not necessarily rational in the long run. Rand talks about not sacrificing ever because ultimately, a ‘sacrifice’ consists of postponing what is good for what is better, so it’s not really a sacrifice when you lay off going to the beach to study. You go for the higher value and hence, it’s not a sacrifice nor self-immolation.
What is Primal is Self Interest. This guy conflated Impulse with Self Interest😅
Jordan: "Self-interest doesn't exist."
*proceeds to explain self-interest from a macro perspective*
lmao this was actually insane to see his eyes glaze over and say the words without getting it
@@jamesgriffithmusic I think you’re the one who didn’t get it lmao
Hes literally saying that you cant have self interest and then bringing up ways to be self interested...doesnt make sense
@Cool Boomer actually no. He missed the point the second he started talking about impulsion.
@Cool Boomer thats something that Alan Watts has said, that you cannot experience you without the other and its inseparable which is why its in our best interest to make the world a good place to live in and preserve some things, the root for that is seflishness, if selfishness is no more than a concept then the attachment also be one and that makes no sense, he admits that. Its a complete nom sequitur to suggest that "because it's an attachment that we have to do some good things" but not only is that obvious but its only half true because if i value my life then not wanting the world to blow up isnt something good i have to consider, its simply self interest that i dont want the world to blow up therefor its not something one feels like they have to do. The only thing you should feel like you have to do are things in your own self interest which is unavoidable and is also the reason why JP obviously misses the point when he brings up drugs or drinking, there are universal truths and history that tell us what is and isnt in our self interest being things like drinking, getting obese. I could go on and on but the point is he said some obvious things and made non sequitur comparisons. Saying self interest doesn't take into account that we aren't separate is 100% false and thats the focal point of whats being advertised.
@Cool Boomer it already has. What do you think capitalism comes from in the western world. You have the wrong impression of what altruism and selfishness means. The world already works on selfishness. When a soldier jumps on a grenade the only person he is worried about is himself because he cant bare to watch his brothers get blown up, and this is what we call pure selfishness, its not about wrong or right its about being able to use reason for yourself, i really cant explain this you would have to watch ayn rand or yaron because you arent understanding what it means to be self interested, living a sacrificial life not only doesnt work but makes everyone miserable hence communism, only there is only one person and thats you this whole past present future is nonsense when you are being selfish you have to think it aswell and use reason, its unreasonable to get what you want by killing and lying and its in your best self interest that you dont. Like i said again i could go on all day but when it comes to understanding what it means to be selfish you have to go check ayn rand or yaron because they go through it perfectly like examples of should a woman sacrifice herself for someone because if she leaves them they will feel bad.
@Cool Boomer b4 you go check them out tho give me an example of a self sacrifice thats good.
@Cool Boomer also i do not agree with abortion because it doesnt follow that principle which is a contradiction in the objectivist view
With the conclusion about Buddha, I think it's not well formulated (ironically expressed from a cognitive technology approach, which is surprising coming from Jordan Peterson) it's more about how you articulate yourself when doing something by compassion (like saving an insect life) by the what's in your heart/your act in the world/your perception are synchronized in the movement. I talk here as being a musician which is very useful to me.
And I now realize that what we call "flow state of mind" is this last principle which most of the so-called specialists don't understand I believe.
This resonates!
Thanks for the upload.
The part about time doesn't seem like much of an objection. It's future you that matters. Because there is the biggest payoff if you have self control. The rest of it when compared to say someone like Ayn Rand seems to be a distinction without a difference. And what is self interest? Epictetus who talked a bit about self interest also said that having a pre conception is one thing and defining it is another. So nothing really new in Peterson or the psychologists he cites. Look after your self interest yes. But think about what that really means.
well the well being of my partner or the other he tallks about, is part of self intrest, wether its sexual financial, having kids, being happy... for multiple reasons. Thus self intrest is alive and well, i dont understand
So you made it that your partner's well-being is synonymous with yours, which is what he says. He also adds that the community's well-being is also synonymous with yours because you're part of it. You're not disassociated from it in any fundamental sense, maybe it's not as strong of a link as to that with your partner, but it's still a link.
So, your self-interest encompasses everything is what he's trying to make the case for.
In my opinion, being totally selfless does not exist. To be totally selfless, you would get no gain in giving something up. No gain in emotion-nothing.
If you DO give something up and you do not receive any gain, then you are simply a fake. You are TRYING to be altruistic. You do not have someone’s best interest at heart when you do not feel any gain.
In a lot of cases, our self-interests exist in one another, and I think that is a beautiful thing.
I have no idea if I repeated the same thing this guy said...oh well. I’m putting this comment out here because I think life would be scary for someone who all of a sudden thought their love and care for someone/something was just “selfish”.
Is it not though? Is not love self interested? It’s a mutual contract with another individual. Which is why people don’t give it away carelessly (some obviously do but we often see them as morally worthless.) Love and action has merit. It is self interested. Otherwise, why not give your entire wealth, health, and charity to every single person you meet? Even if you were to be charitable or “selfless” it ultimately fails do to the inclination to fill a void of self interest. You are with someone you love because you don’t want them to be with someone else. You value them out of self interest, you want them to be happy out of self interest. We often attribute selfishness as a negative trait but would you consider health selfish? Or economic stability selfish? Is it wrong? No. I think the quickest way to understand is there are good forms of selfishness and negative aspects of selfishness.
I loved this, it really gave me a new understanding of things
I've been thinking about this for like weeks without end and now I can finally start to think about more in a more appropriate way.
I just don't know how to call this, this thing like. You do it for your own interest, obviouisly so you are selfish at the beginning. But you are also doing it so people's life around you is better. So that would be, maybe true altruism, but I don't think it is since it is in your own interest. So basically you have got to give before you can do anything for yourself, in a way, I think. So I don't know what to call this. Is it just, self-intrest all together? If you are part of everything then, part of history of mankind, part of the universe and your enviroment, part of your species, part of what makes you as a being, like molecules and atoms and whatever lies beyond that. It's so weird. To act to help others, but you are doing it for yourself. Or you can't do it without helping yourself first?
Crafting your future?
We are talking about self interest as a guiding principle in the life of man. This play around with the definition i.e. "I will take a gun a rob a bank because of self interest" is ridiculous. Just wasted 5 minutes.
This dichotomy is at the core of my biggest problems. I'm the most empathic person I know. I'm a bleeding heart. Don't ask me how I was born this way, but I was. People been telling me my whole life I need to focus more on myself........but I'm just naturally more selfless than the average joe. It goes against MY self-interest.........being so in tune with others emotions and so empathetic and compassionate............to NOT include other people's needs, to a certain extent, in the equation called ME.
I'd go so far as to say........I'm terrible, at the being egoistic. It literally feels like a closing of my heart....and my love for people......and quite frankly, when compared to sucessfully egoistic people........I just don't have the same levels of aggression or belief in the righteouness of my wants.
My empathy makes me a very very ineffective egoistic person. When I fully embrace my selflessness..........which is based on nothing more than the desire to STOP the suffering i feel when I feel other people suffering around me...........I usually do a much better good job............and organically become much better at actually seperating what is mine and what is the other person..........which takes me to a lot more objective view of MYSELF in relation to all these other folks.
I think the world is comprised of souls with different predispositions and levels of empathy...........and so the confusions around this topic come from the fact we DON'T all FEEL the same. Some people are just not as empathic......they'll never understand how someone might desire to be so selfless. And vice-versa.
On a whole though, it's undeniable that the human race is evolving towards more selflessness...........WHY? Because it IS the only way to survive because, whether we want to or not, we are interdependent on one another. Corona is a prime example of this........or the markets..............everything affects everything these days.............well, it was always the case........we just felt we were more isolated from one another because as a species we were less AWARE. With increased awareness we are like............oh.......we are actually fucking each other over by not inclduing one another's best interest into OUR individual equation. Some believe it's still possible............but they are the ones who are not expericing much JOY in this life. They may SEEM like they have their needs met............but at the core, there is no inner peace. You can't have inner peace in this fucked up wowrld if you don't feel you are contributing to the well being of tohers around you in some way.
Well, however you look at it the goal in life is to not be lonely. So you need people to stick around and like you, you don’t get that by being selfish.
Secondly, happiness is generally achieved through self betterment. Helping others feels good for a time, making money feels good for a time. But being a better person who becomes useful to those around you that you care about is the real way to happiness as it’s purpose.
If you’re not doing the above, then you might want to get on that path.
How were you born this way
This is the first time I've completely disagreed with Jordan.
Explain please...
Phoenix Franks very curious as to how/why?
Oh come on dude, you have to explain your point of view, it's not an obligation but it's always enlightening to see others people's opinions
That's funny, because this is the first time I've completely agreed with Jordan.
Friendly Raid Ive never completely disagreed with JP
Then how corruption, monarchy happen this is thing of self interest.
Monarchy wasn’t intrinsically evil lmao all the European art you love and cherish comes from monarchies stop repeating nonsense
Wow he actually said that .
I disagree with him on this part.
Self Interest is the essential part of a man's existence .
Nah
About the wife taking revenge ... yeah nah toss her out on the street ignore her who cares ? Not me !!
Gay
Umm no.