Is Being Too Muscular Bad For Health?
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- Опубліковано 5 січ 2025
- Drs. Baraki, Miles, and Feigenbaum discuss the health risks and benefits of carrying a lot of muscle.
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For the record, the "GainzZz Composite Score" was a joke, but if pressed, it'd look something like a strength test for the upper and lower body (1RM bench/chest press and 1RM squat/leg press), a VO2max for cardiorespiratory fitness, a waist circumference and BMI for body composition, T/E ratio or similar for anabolic use status, PHQ-9 for depression, etc. Then it'd have to be validated and tweaked to actually mean something, but that's probably a reasonable starting point. If you're wondering about what to prioritize for health, we have an article on that: www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/where-should-my-priorities-be-to-improve-my-health/
Edited to add: I appreciate all of the comments, particularly those that watched the video before typing 😂
Thanks guys for the info! I know the GCS was a joke. I bought some of your older programs a few years ago, but for some reason there's no record of me buying them.
Jeez the dedication of this man. Great content
@@mlpreissif you email us at support@barbellmedicine.com, I’m betting we can look it up!
Sounds like a useful concept honestly
I work with seniors and individuals with disabilities frequently to improve fitness. The ones who are living the longest, moving the best, and have the highest QOL all are incredibly strong and have enough muscle to allow them to do those activities.
As someone who personally achieved an all-time BMI, weight, to strength ratio, then significantly dropped both, I can confidently say that though I lost a lot of strength, I feel "healthier," having lost those "gains." My mental health, libido, sleep, and overall personal affect (self-efficacy in other tasks which time took away from being so gym-focused).
That being said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a balanced diet of lifting and cardio fitness, and we should encourage all and any who choose to pursue such things in the name of fighting sarcopenia and other metabolic diseases/disorders.
As someone who is currently trying to max out my 1RMs and is pushing 28 on his BMI, can you talk a bit more to these benefits? Thank you.
@@LawrenceSteps For me, the biggest hurdle was recovery through sleeping (not diet). I believe had I focused more on this, it would've been less of a concern, as well as attempted to slow my progressive weight gain, as I was too hastey in acquiring that size and strength
@@LawrenceSteps additionally, I believe the folks at BarMed and the lifter Matt Vena have good programs for maximizing 1RM movements without bloating your body in an attempt achieve this.
If you're natty it just comes down to bodyfat% and not BMI.
No natural lifter has and will ever complain of having too much lean muscle mass. Most complaims come when there's an equal amount of fat associated.
BMI does a VERY GOOD job estimated body fat percentage. Compared to things like DXA, air plethysmography (BOD POD), and others, BMI kicks a**. The correlation between BMI and DXA is 0.92, where 1.00 is a perfect score. And yes, many athletes will carry too much fat mass. Check out our podcast on metabolic syndrome in athletes.
@@BarbellMedicine What about skinny-fats. According to BMI they are in healthy range but their fat % is over 25-30. I am obese according to BMI but I am very muscular and have wide hip and shoulder bone structure. But my fat% is under 20. BMI sucks for lifters.
I'm beginning to see how Derek Miles was a high level rower
yes you first have to define health, like as a construct of things like insulin sensitivity, reduced risk for cardiovascular disease, etc. lean mass improves such factors, namely in the natural range.
Hi I am in school for exercise physiology! I usually just listen on apple podcast and its weird because this is the first time I am seeing your face!! Matching the voice with the face! Love you all!!
The number one takeaway from this video is that Derek is absolutely huge.
I don't think your body would allow you to get so muscular that it turns unhealthy (unless you have some myostatin deficiency) but I do believe maintaining muscle mass into older age is very important for longevity. grip strength, balance etc has proven to be quite predictive of all cause mortality.
umm no, clearly there are many many bodybuilders who put horrendous loads on their body by having so much muscle tissue, you arent supposed to be 260lb at 5'10....
@@2011hwalker You wont get that muscular without anabolics, insulin, hgh etc. now im talking about someone drug free.
@@2011hwalker He implied "without steroids". If you look at natural bodybuilding contests, you see that there is not a snowball's chance in hell to reach 260lb lean at 5'10 without taking ped's
@@NicolaiTschenow7530 We don't know if the amount of muscle gainned by a decade of hipertrophy training + hipertrophy focused diet could be excessive. It needs to be stablished, since the "naturals cant gain much muscle" is also a myth.
Killer shirt, Jordy! 👍
At 52, the ganz score is the "lower-case g" grail in my eyes. I bought outlive hoping it'd have it, but I think Attia hoards that for his clients. Don't see longevity benefit from taking my bench press to 350 from 300 but see real benefit from getting my VO2 to 50+ or adding a social sport to the mix. All things I'm doing, but a score is convenient to make trade-off decisions.
I'm 6' tall, 300 pounds, lift regularly, higher weight rather than higher reps (deadlift/BP/shrugs/rows etc.) Also hit the tread and some Orange Theory HIIT classes weekly. Had a complete cardio workup including stress test, zero deposits and plaques, have the circulatory system of someone decades younger according to my cardiologist. my BP is 120/70, resting pulse 54, cholesterol 185....Diet is vegetarian with an occasional Salmon or Tuna. Also, I'm 57. My wife, bless her, is over 100 lbs. less than me and regularly out eats me at meals. Oh and BTW my grandma just passed at age 101, she was short and chunky and was in the Guinness Book of World Records as the world's oldest female competitive powerlifter! True story! So, docs are on my case about weight loss, not sure what my next course of action should be.
Regarding the optimization problem Jordan mentioned I thought it would be unlikely that someone could maximize their muscle mass potential without at least meeting the threshold of cardio respiratory activity that would give you most of the health benefits of cardio.
Which is to say, the increased work capacity and all the other benefits of cardio will be conducive to gaining muscle and strength.
To illustrate, someone like Austin or Jordan who take their cardio seriously are able to condense a lot of their workouts into 90 minutes or less windows and consistently get training in. Which promotes adherence and they’d consequently have more long term success than someone who doesn’t have the ability to do as much volume with the time they have to train (assuming most people are normal aka busy af lol).
Cardio improved inter session and intra session recovery and also makes you better at higher rep work. I do think people who do reps between 5-15 instead of sticking to just less than 8 reps all the time are more likely to be super jacked. And there are some gains left on the table if you don’t ever do those higher reps. Idk if it’s evidence based but it’s my understanding.
So all in all that’s my argument for the notion that if you want to really maximize muscle and strength then you have to at least do a fair bit of cardio. I know y’all recommend this and have even at least implied this but was wondering if this would be at odds with Jordan’s proposition that an elite lifter needs to sacrifice gains for health. Since I honestly think the amount of cardio for health (150 mins or whatever) is negligible in terms of training resources especially if you’ve been doing it for a while.
Addendum: I think people who spend 4 hours at the gym like the whole powerlifter meme who bring their chairs and PS5s and bakery to workout and camp between sets might definitely be super jacked and strong while lacking health promoting cardio adaptations. This just occurred to me
So, for a casual, mid-60s, natty lifter not entering any competition of any type that enjoys improving his strength, are you saying it's time to add some cardio into my routine and back off the lifting a bit? I still do the pyramid-based powerbuilding (was called the football lifting program) lifting program the football coach had everyone do for squats and benches. Went from benching 175 to 325 in 3 or 4 months. Bodyweight was 155. Definitely need to lose some weight now, though.
I thought I read the other day that BMI was falling out of favor and was being replaced by the waist-to-hip ratio.
Finally, does Barbell Medicine have a workout geared to older lifters?
Try their Beginner Template
Yes, do some cardio. That's what he meant when he said cardio is a dose response relationship, more is usually better. With strength being way above average is not really going to improve your health outcomes over being slightly above average.
I don't know if you need to back off the lifting, but I would definitely recommend doing enough conditioning work to meet/exceed the current physical activity guidelines. We have a multi-part podcast series on conditioning starting at episode 236.
Is Derek Miles sat closer to the camera or does he have massive arms? Austin’s arms look like twigs in comparison…
The docs be jacked
Derek is really big
Austin took a training hiatus I think while Jordan did some bodybuilding emphasis for awhile. Not sure if that made a difference.
@@caleb3909 over a whole decade of training, probably not 🙂
He probably doesn't train them directly
My wife won't work out because she's afraid she'll get too jacked. Maybe instead of arguing with her about the feasibility of massively high responders, I'll just point her to the fact that theres nothing wrong with being too jacked haha.
Maybe direct the conversation to strength and its benefits and find her videos of not-too-much-jacked strong people who lift massive weights.
Bear in mind that by "too jacket" she means gaining muscle in places we are suposed to have small (arms, shoulders waist). Men should realize that women want to have that 1990s playmate body (very skinny and small all over, volume just on breasts and some hips). Thus, that 1inch gain of size for us IS huge, because we want zero, we wanna get smaller, not bigger.
There are easier and more delicious ways to get bigger hehehe, exercising for it seems stupid considering our goals.
@@stefanisilva2493 muscle is denser than fat. Women can gain weight and yet be smaller and more "toned", and glute/leg training has really come into vogue. Upper body work also shapes a more graceful silhouette
@@InvisibleHotdog Muscle is denser, but actually not by much - those famous fat vs muscle size pictures are misleading. Many diferent physical activities promote this tonned look, and the most important part of it is a very low body fat content. Lifting will increase volume, and the only place women like an increase is on glutes. Upper female body is all about being thin, with svelte arms - again, more result of low fat then muscle hipertrophy. Glute training is the only exception.
Anecdotally, for years I averaged 220-225 around 15% body fat. I ate clean, did my cardio a few times per week, and didn’t consume excessive sodium or energy drinks. My vitals were always 135-140/80. Over the past couple years, I have gradually brought my weight down to 205-210 and 10-12% body fat. Same diet, same training, however I now check-in at 115/78.
In your videos ypu are far from 10-12%
how do you deal with the BMI for larger framed people? I'm 6'4" (female) and at one point was in a clinical weight loss program, during which they measured my lean body mass and it was 220lb. I'm definitely obese at the moment, walking around at about 340 due to developing ME/CFS a couple years ago, but I suspect even if I was able to take weight off a health walking around weight for me might be something like 250lb to allow for a healthy amount of body fat.
are there formulae for BMI thresholds for outliers like me?
You're assuming your LBM would stay the same were you to lose your excess body fat, which it wouldn't. Besides, BMI is best used as a statistical tool for groups, not so much for individuals. It really doesn't matter if losing 90 lb of excess fat is going to statistically put you in the healthy range according to BMI / some other indicator or not. Getting healthy is a continuous process, not a discrete one. Now cutting out excess calories, eating a balanced diet comprised mostly of unprocessed food, exercising regularly, getting enough sleep, being consistent... Those are actionable cues which are going to - day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year -, make you healthyER. Whether your BMI ends up being 24 or 28 down the line is kind of irrelevant. Now, to actually answer your question, some altered versions of the BMI have been proposed to account for either extreme of the height spectrum (e.g. using 2.5 instead of 2 as the exponent for height in the formula), but none will magically make 250 lb be your healthiest bodyweight. And again, that's besides the point. The process is the solution.
Better concentrate on the process, watch the pounds disappear, applaud yourself along the way (you deserve it!) and eventually you will see when you get too skinny. You can also measure skin folds if you want to be precise. If you are an exceptionally muscular outlier, there's no other way anyway. BMI is pretty crappy anyway, even for us normal people. You don't need tables.
There has been a push for new BMI formulas targeting obese individuals, we have some in Nutrition specific for obese patients. The newest one came out of Oxford University in 2022.
Being massive. BMI over 35 is just unhealthy no matter the composition. Surely. The heart would be at strain.
It is highly probable (99% certainty for most individuals) that a BMI of 35+ is carrying too much body fat, which increases risk of adiposity based chronic disease. If they have that BMI and are not carrying too much body fat, poly pharmacy is a concern. If neither of those things are present, while exceedingly rare, it’s possible that the individual is at no increased risk. In any situation, the “strain” on the heart is not the mechanism.
A lot of people who are too jacked have sleep apnea. Some of them are very severe cases. That's something noone talks about..!
That's why alot bodybuilders will end thier career at bmi before reaching 38 bmi point.
Yes being too big is bad for your heart, but I dont think 99% of lifters need to worry about getting to a size that's detrimental to them
We would not agree with this take, for reasons stated in the video. The mechanism by which excess size increases risk is not limited to the heart, nor is it caused by muscle. Gaining too much adipose tissue is absolutely a risk that the majority of people- lifters included- will have to deal with in their life.
@@BarbellMedicineappreciate the explanation 👍🏻
I vaguely remember listening to an SBS podcast addressing this issue: If BMI is bad, does it make a difference if it's from LBM or fat? And I think the "muscle" variant was a-ok.
@@nonickchwe would not agree with that take, if accurate, as it seems like the body fat level when bmi > 30 is more harmful than the muscle is protective.
@@BarbellMedicine Fat isn't muscle though which is what the question asked.
Gainzzz composite score=necessary
Me answering the question, "Only when you are trying to fit through doors" 🤭😉
Absolute unit
guy in the middle look a bit like Dobby
varicosity
First. For Al Gore's rhythm!
It's a no brainer
Gainzzz Composite Score > BMI
First one here📍
So the takeaway…stay natty and don’t get too fat.
I lift 100 kilograms and smoke cigarettes
!!!!!!!!
Yes of course it is bad for you. David Sinclair talked about this I believe
Because of high protein/calorie intake?
Sinclair is a quack.
@@BarbellMedicine what dont you like? He’s right about low protein should be life extending since it activates insulin and downstream igf-1 which increases cellular mutation and cellular death and cancer risk.
@@Gurusson-qr5np no, he's not, as when that hypothesis has been tested in humans it shows absolutely nothing. He's also still on sirtuins, which have been rebutted. This is in additional to continued promotion of misinformation in the longevity space. Nearly every academic in that and related fields also consider his information garbage. Outcomes > mechanisms. Sinclair sucks.
@@BarbellMedicine Ad hominem, you can do better.
I expect super-physiological amounts of muscle mass are definitely bad for longevity. Our hearts just aren't made to handle that much muscle mass. Even the kind of muscle mass you can build with 15 years of cut/bulk cycles seems like it would be unhealthy, especially if you're eating a lot of animal protein and forgoing cardio. In that sense, strength to body weight ratio is definitely preferred to copious amounts of muscle mass for me.
There's some data out there that shows decreased lifespans with high animal protein diets. I also saw some meta-analyses that showed decreased longevity after 60-70 minutes a week of strength training. Since then, I've changed my programming to lower volume. I'm still doing 90 minutes or so.. it's hard to get that low.
We would not agree with these claims based on existing evidence, particularly with the caveats listed in this video. The dietary claim you reflected is also more complicated, as when correcting for known confounders - particularly processed meat and total dietary fiber, total animal protein does not reliably correlate to health trajectory any longer. Finally, the claim regarding that > 90 minutes of RT/wk reduces life- and/or health-span has not been shown in any prospective or retrospective trial. Subsequent analysis has shown that, as described here, there's a threshold response to RT-driven improvements in MSK health, where more strength or LBM do not necessarily provide additional benefit, though they also do not appear to be uniquely harmful either and much of the data in the original M/A has significant confounders making the analysis of limited utility. For example, a more recent study published in JAMA found that those achieving much higher exercise volumes than recommended in the guidelines had the lowest mortality risk, reductions in risk from various types of cancers, and so on. Additionally, recent prospective trial data shows that those improving in strength the most- which we know is tied to total training volume- had the greatest improvements in health metrics such as resting blood pressure and blood sugar control. We would not recommend limiting RT to only 90 minutes per week, as this is unlikely to meet that threshold for generating the maximum amount of RT-induced MSK adaptations for health. We would also not recommend telling people to limit their RT based on the M/A you're referring to. Favoring a diet rich in plant-based foods is something we can definitely get behind, but animal protein can also be part of a health-promoting dietary pattern.
@@BarbellMedicine Shailendra P, Baldock KL, Li LSK, Bennie JA, Boyle T. Resistance Training and Mortality Risk: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis
Momma H, Kawakami R, Honda T, Sawada SS. Muscle-strengthening activities are associated with lower risk and mortality in major non-communicable diseases: a systematic review and meta-analysis of cohort studies.
If I post the IDs the comment gets removed by UA-cam. Check out those meta-analyses. I've been looking for a second opinion on them.
@@BarbellMedicine Are you able to point to the jama meta-analysis you're referring to? Can't find it based on the info you gave me.
This could possibly be it. Although it was published in the BMJ, not JAMA
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31406017/@@limitisillusion7
@@limitisillusion7yes, we are aware of those papers and the limitations, actual meanings,etc., which are reflected in the previous comment. I am very comfortable with my comment as it is. The JAMA paper’s PMID is 37548973