It's also possible that both the "subject" and "object" have a trait they are both unconsciously aware of, in which case they both act as the object and subject at the same time. It gets very confusing lol.
Seeing it or not, they never admit to this traits. They live in the light of their false grandiosity. This has to do with nerve structures, and connections between neurons and synapses. Their traumatic starting point has as far as one know today little possibility of change. Change would imply reality understanding of them selves, which they don't. They really think their grandiose fantasy is reality!
This happened to me. It was the most disorienting confusing thing I've experienced. Two years later and my reputation still feels tarnished. This was a good reminder to stay away from people this toxic.
1. Projective identification in this form is mostly seen in people with personality disturbance an psychothic persons. They often have described early traumas. 2. For most subjects this happens unconscious, it become concious for them when they identify with it in the object. The claims they make against the object is fantasy, because its not the object but the subject that has these traits.
My wife engaged in this behaviour with great detriment to me. I now have problems with the legal system. 1. She was born in a foreign country and her parents left her there as an infant while they came over here. Later, she was molested by an uncle. 2. Having done some research on BPD/NPD, I confronted her: "I know you know I know" and she dissociated. Blank eyed stare. There IS some core understanding of what she is doing, but she cannot admit or tolerate it. 3. She is a psychiatric nurse who must know this
Rune, towards the end of this vid you touch on introjective identification in an interesting way....concerning Ns and Bdlines...which explains why people they target feel like they have been 'soulraped'...the predator 'steals' the core identity and qualities of the target. Thank you.
I want to thank you again :-) Now I understand that others CAN manipulate my feelings and make me feel bad about myself, I have the ability to not to be manipulated. I have the control over my emotions that I want. You have helped me out of immense suffering. Bless you for your part in this.
Sounds like a diagnosis for racism. So we can say that being racist is projection & racism (stereotyping, racial profiling & prejudice) are projective identification.
From what you write i think the trauma of his fathers death may have brought about his behavior today. In a therapeutic setting you cant fight back on the projection, it makes things worse. What you can do is make him understand that his projected material hurts you (without blaming him). His aggression scares you and so on. He probably needs help from someone versed in and with a deeper understanding of PI. Normal therapeuts dont have this.
This is such a great little video. I often share it with clients and friends to explain this extremely complex behavior that is so devastating, particularly to children.
Thank you Isobel, its a behaviour that makes serious problem for many people in contact with this kins of behaviour. Learning about this can help many to avoid and at least understand.
Do you have any insights into what is happening in the psyche of the person projected upon and why? EG becoming confused and unsure of my own reality , questioning ...perhaps he is right. In the moment it feels like hell, like a kick in the gut, and I "collapse' and loose my sense of self.
To my knowledge, what happens is the subjects (unconscious) need to identify with the unbearable behavior in them selves, connected to their own trauma! As long as the negative traits stays in the object (projected) it does not threaten the subject. The subject is able to ACTIVATE emotions and affect in the object, similar to the projected material. This leads to confusion in the object because the object normally has self-insight enough to se that this behavior they have been manipulated into, is not coming from their own self. Thats why they question themselves, "Am i the crazy one"? Asking this question is also a sign of normality. Narcissists don't ask this questions about themselves.
Im not sure if one can say the subject dont see these traits, is in denial og if they are displaced. That is maybe not the most important. What is important is that the subject denies these traits in them selves at the same time as they identifies with these traits in the object. The importance for the subject is that these traits is not associated by their own selves. And if they are, its because of the object. The subject is not held responsible.
Trobble with PI is that this often is unconscious, meaning your boyfriend does not se any projection coming from him. He only identifies whit the projected material in his object-representation of you. His mental picture of you, consisting of the aggression he projected. Problem is, you cant talk about the aggression. The reason he project is that this material is unbearable to him. He will deny it. Its not part of his conscious picture of him selves.
This is so interesting and completely endorses what I have been talking about for a long time...ie who the anger belongs to. The most interesting part for me is that the origins of the anger is not in the subject's awareness. I think this is critical in understanding and accepting this very popular behaviour!..I used to be that projecting person until I worked my way through and out of it completely, having realised all the negative and destrucive things in my life were coming from me, not to me. I and am now having karmic payback but finding it almost impossible to deal with as recipient. Thank you for this easy and wonderful explanation.
The context is essential in validating your hypothesis. Anger often can be caused by willing sadistic behavior (unduly exercise of power) by person B (the object). This happens very often when there is a power unbalance. The degree of anger triggered, is proportional to the tolerance for stress by person A.
@ Linda Middlemist I'm sorry to hear that. What we give we receive back: I'm learning that too... not theoretically, as before, but in experience: and it may all just be what Dr Lee, who healed a hospital ward full of insane people, by Ho'oponopono, called his "data stream". Whatever around us, on our own particular life, is what we heal: outside of us as well as inside. Thus we step out of karma.
I've spent the last 2 hours desperately trying to understand this concept and,thanks to your video, I have finally mastered it! Thank you so much!!!! 😀😀😀😀😀
Thank you so much for your videos. I believe this is what happened between my NPD mother and myself. I didn't know it at the time and I lived out what she kept telling me I was. Now several years later I have woken up. However she and my ex husband are still trying to convince me I am someone I am not. I realise it is their own unconscious shame. Trying to explain that to anyone is almost impossible. As a result my children suffer from parental alienation and psychological abuse. I have been shunned and scapegoated from my family. I wish I had woken up sooner. Thank you again
www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artikler/projeksjon.htm english translation: translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artikler/projeksjon.htm
Introjection, projection and denial, as a Finnish analyst Veikko Tähkä put it. This is always the case when dealing with people with no object/subject constancy. They have no real boundaries, and that fact makes them very consuming in relationships of any kind. They are leeches.
The SUBJECT seeks answers, knowledge that "emotional immaturity" denies him...perhaps, even healing...most OBJECTS are incapable of giving (due to lack of understanding the situation),...The OBJECT should respond with calmness, (assuming object is aware of the subject's narcissism). demonstrating, good-will, convincing the (child)/SUBJECT that Aggression, soon evaporates when handled properly, with little anger or further exertion possible... Communication is key and the wanting to end rather than furthering negative AGGRESSION....the narcissist Projective Identification can be used to MODIFY or, manipulate, add structure with-in the narcissist inner, barren landscape, (the void between grandiosity and reality). You have explained this very well Doctor, Thank you very much!
Excellent, thank you! I realize that I see this happen all the time, after your explanation. Very, very true and very concerning what you say about miscarriage of justice due to protective identification.
Yes, the lack of object/subject constancy is a prerequisite for projective identification. Perception of your own behavior as belonging to others, has an element of not so healthy boundaries. Very confusing for the surroundings.
I wish I had understood this dynamic sooner. I didn’t know what scapegoat abuse was in families and now I see my siblings do not have any awareness of what they are doing no matter how much they are confronted with the truth. We endured so much trauma growing up and they refuse to get help and instead want to blame me for things that are wrong just like our narcissistic parent did.
My older sister does this, but mainly on one topic. She's insecure and vain, but yesterday when she was going on I (diplomatically) tried to tell her it's a family of origin theme, that appearance is very important, and she ended up saying vanity is my issue when it's not. If it's mostly unconscious there is no way of correcting her ways. She can be quite aggressive in obsessing about it, but comes across like a hyper cheerleader. Really gets on my nerves. Wish she would get therapy, but she believes there's too much of a stigma attached to it, plus she's heavily into magical thinking not self-reflection.
Thank you so much. I just experienced this and was accused of the behaviours I was pushing back on, and did not back down on it, and was discarded in a cold, unfeeling way. It was confusing and created self-doubt but this has explained the situation so clearly and given me peace in my heart and mind. It is also scary to think what type of person I was dealing with. Who knows how bad it could have gotten? :O
This was such a helpful, useful video. It has been invaluable when I've worked with supervisees and we are all struggling with a clear understanding of this toxic dynamic. It really helps to protect the innocent.
I endured a narcissistic " reign of terror " from infancy thru 17 yrs of age. I recall the symmetry between my Dad's own, brutal violence and his feral projectivity toward my Mother and myself. During his violent tirades, his words always painted an inadvertent "self-portrait " of his own feral cruelty, always projected outward onto others, where it remained un-examined. Since those days, I've dealt 24/7 with chronic, insidious clinical depression, Introjective identification and suicidal ideation: but I am still here.
This is a very confusing explanation for me. But I was searching bc I learned about this from my therapist. My mother was badly abused- and she is a highly toxic sick woman who never got help. She has always been abusive. If she wants to fight there is no avoiding it. She will act in passive aggressive or even aggressive aggressive ways- she'd always do it when she thought I was all alone, when dad was gone, on the phone, in the car. After being bullied- and provoked- of course the natural response is to get defensive and fight back- and THEN! Oh boy- she's got you. When they sense they've gotten under your skin they sadistically ramp UP their efforts. Then in response to your defense- SHE is the VICTIM. Now you've sank to her level and YOU are demonized, & scapegoated. Ostracized- isolated... thank god for technology and iPhones because for the first time ever- I recorded her screaming at me- trying to provoke me to fight. I escaped and have it to bring to my therapist for help.
If you react aggressively to being told you are aggressive... Then you are a bit aggressive no? If you react calmly to that, you totally ruin their point.
+mirawenya Being falsely accused of something you are not by the person you love is enfuriating. Even more if it happens over and over again. They will accuse you of something they know will push your buttons. The person then threatens to abandon you/hurt you for reasons that are a complete invention. Anger and frustration is inevitable.
I am an MSW student who stumble upon this video while trying to understand this defense mechanism for a class. If someone uses this defense mechanism, can they automatically be labeled a narcissist? During a couple of arguments with my husband, he has called me passive aggressive, aggressive and mean. I have never been any of those things, but I began second guessing myself. Am I passive aggressive, etc? After watching this video I really feel like my husband is using this defense mechanism. His words really made me feel bad about myself-and defensive! How does a therapist manage a client using projective identification? I sometimes see my teenage son acting this way as well and I would like to address it with him.
Sandi V It is really hard to give diagnosis if you are not a doctor. I think if you do not act the same way towards him, acting in the opposite you will find him easier to relate to. But don't think you can change just by giving more love, he is not broken soul, it runs deeper towards being a moral inversion.When we think of relationship exchange as energy exchanges. We can see the normal exchanges can be positive, they innately know what the rules for health exchange so they are self-aware as they break the rules to amass 'energy' for themselves.This is normal called 'narcissistic supply' in trade language of therapist. You have to accept him for who he is. There a lot of different sorts of narcissism; exhibitive, destructive, hungry, manipulative, suspicious.What you have to remember is there is not a cure for it. My friend and I think that psychiatrists commit suicide because they try to treat clients like this but that another thing.Your son is probably coping it off your spouse because he is the same sex parent. it is a real hard thing because he is his father.You need to distance yourself through emotional insulation, to protect your psychological being'. The 'second guessing' is part of the way he is putting you under his control.Stop seeing him as a source of love. Find it from other things, gardening, reading or belong to a group.Try to see how where he is exploiting your vulnerability, where he can push your buttons. Pretend to agree when it seems he is not being reasonable. Let argument go by not taking the hook, don't try to challenge him, deflect, deflect deflect. If he sees you are not reacting to his behaviour he will back off. Conversations will start to get easier, there will be less drama because he will see you cannot be 'got at".Giving him with therapy labels is red flags to him, don't. You don't need a label for him, the behaviour doesn't need to be given one for it to exist.But get out if he gets physically abusive. You are not going to change him but you can show his behaviour cannot affect you, at the same time protect yourself.A good book to read is Loving the Self-Absorbed by Nina W. Brown. Remind yourself, you cannot do anything to help him on your own.
Understandable. See, I have a past issue with anger and people often use that against me. They often bring up the past to try and hurt me if I say anything to defend myself against their attacks whether they are direct or indirect. I'd say that if certain people can't get over themselves in order to neutralize a disagreement, then that could be a symptom of narcissism.
marshall886 But he is who he is not because he wants to be this way but because of the way he was raised-because of his core beliefs about himself. Maybe he is "a broken soul."
You have got to see that as humans we are not rational. It is not his behaviour you need to change because you cannot, but yours. You cannot afford this kind of reasoning.You will lost equilibrium. You need to create a wall in a place where he cannot get through to manipulate you.A lot of women don't are not interested in politics, they are spared the debate they would have with a politically minded man and are left alone.While you don't have diagnosis, the behaviour is instrumentally narcissistic. Your goal is to protect your individual self in the relationship as well as providing an example of what a functional adult is to your son. Instead of feeling emotions you need to think through feelings. With practice it can come more natural. Believe there is part of you that cannot be affected or disturbed by what people say or do to you. Carry out your commitment to the household and family, it needs to function, finances, shopping, bills, cooking etc. Whether is is a relative or someone you are married to, it is your commitment to be in the relationship, remember you are being there on your terms.Try validating it by whatever thing religion belief or philosophical thing, you are not seeking anything you from them that you need to function(sunlight, water etc), like a change in behaviour.Try to seek agreement without making issues out of things, let things go if they are too hard, work to optimise areas where you have goodwill, while all the time choosing not to give power to his behaviour. In order to do so, you need to see how he is behaviour, to know what it is.Giving you room for self awareness to respond to it freely, if he gives you no choice go through with it but give him choices for next time so it doesn't happen again. But you cannot if you indulge that he is broken soul.You will be under his power again in no time.And that is what he is after. Renegotiate other matters like sex, so it is not an arena where the manipulation and power struggle carries across to the physical. The only pleasure may be in it as an act of service.You can choose to participate as an unselfish act like giving charity to someone less fortunate but prepare your mind so you can do this consciously; remember you see yourself as another person living in the relationship, he sees you as an extension of himself. Don't let him think you are inferior or superior to him.
I'm wondering if ANY subject has been trained to act more appropriately regardless of established neuron connections. I'm guessing it depends on severity of this diagnosis and the willingness to practice and then experience reinforcing outcomes . .
extremely well explained video. this is the best explanation of these complicated defense mechanisms i have ever heard, thank you so much, i am a second year psychiatry resident and this is really helpful for me especially when i am in my initial stages of psychotherapy training.
A helpful and lucid explanation of this complex phenomena - the diagrams are much better than the ones I drew many years ago when explaining this to a group! I admire you making the video in English - it can't be easy talking about these concepts in another language.
Thank you Rune. You made clear the concept and helped shed light on a situation in my own life. I am grateful for your sharing your knowledge. Be blessed.
This is an excellent explanation for such a complex phenomenon that is usually difficult to understand. It is very helpful. Very well drawn and explained. Thank you. :) Do you have other videos on different defense mechanisms?
Hi, thank you for a really good explanation. When I saw your video, all the pieces fell in place with my mother in law. She has had this behavior on and off for the last nine years, targeting different persons in the close family, and it seems to get stronger. Currently my partner is in the line of fire, and they just sink deeper and deeper into the conflict. Do you have any advice how to relate to this, being an object? I think she could have a borderline personality, but never had any help.
Jungian shadow theory may refer to an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself. In psychopathology i am not sure one can identify these traits in one selves. After al these traits is connected to very strong affects. At the same time, at some sub-conscious level the subject identifies with these traits, but misplace them in the object. Identification with these traits in the subjects self, means self-knowledge normaly lacking in the subject.
I lived, unknowingly, with a narcissist for 10 years. I recognized early in the marriage that my ex had a mother issue. Again, not knowing anything about psychopathic behavior, I struggled with my once happy life. He killed two of my chihuahuas (one in front of me) and the authorities did nothing because he lied to them. Then his attempt at extorting money from me did work in his favor and was part of the divorce settlement. BUT, after the divorce my discovery of his three felonies and one charge of “theft by deception “ went unheard by the court (miscarriage of justice). He does operate “under the radar” as I then discovered I was his 5th wife! He hoodwinked me, and his betrayal stole 10 years of my life. He is currently searching for #6…at the age of 79. A freeloader extraordinaire. I truly enjoyed your video
Sorry! this is really complicated, but I do live a real life situation. I mixed up subject and object. I meant it the other way around, I think... At the point that the one manipulated one is ready to have the Family's help stopping the suffering, and confront the one inflicting the pain. What would be the solution since we are aware the one inflicting the pain will get even more manipulative.
what would cause a child to never move onto the depressive position from the paranoid schizoid? A person very close to me has had a very bad childhood (abusive parent, given up for adoption etc) and everything with her is "all or nothing", it's as if she was never able to leave the paranoid schizoid phase. It's extremely destructive and while I was taught it in class, it was only glossed over.
so the only solution is to remove myself from his enviroment and stop the interaction with him? Will this eventually help him understand that I am not the source of his aggression? Are there any papers on how the object should respond
Thank you, the person I married did this, Very dangerous deranged individual, put on me things I could never imagine to come up with, it’s a form of abuse that is so mind twisting consumes your every moment. They traumatize you, it’s hard to believe they really believe this. He had it made, yes psychopath s difficult like living with demons. Almost died of trauma panic high blood pressure. Not only blame, they punish, steal,abuse you. They don’t know when to stop.
Though I find it difficult to 100% believe, the SUBJECT is not aware of what it is doing....I know for a fact that in my experience the SUBJECT (narcissist) was completely aware of what it was doing. Though there is the matter of: for what ends?...in this scenario, I guess you are correct. Thank you Doctor.
I learned about projective identification in my social work masters program but I have to admit I never fully understood it. Your video is by far the clearest explanation I have seen yet for how this works. Thank you.
have wondered what splitting was.....thank-you. wonder about artists working with people. is the emotional content of that portrait really me or what you[artist] think you see....oh my,paint flowers for peace.
For a difficult and complex subject you did an excellent job of presenting the material in an understandable way to the layperson. Absolutely fascinating stuff.
I really enjoyed your video. You manage to explain a very complex theory in simple and easy to understand terms. As a social science researcher, I hope this will help me to develop better and more reflexive understandings of my relationship with my research participants. Thanks :)
Dessverre så er dette noe jeg har sett mye til... I BVT, NAV og helsevesenet. Det er vanskelig å finne et forsvar mot slik atferd, særlig ettersom maktdynamikken er asymmetrisk, og basert på synsing og føleri hos den ene parten.
Wtf I just realized I am doing this. What the hell is happening. It was all a lie??? What the hell I believed it so much, this is some next level manipulation I've been doing oh fuckkkkkk
My ex-wife, and son's mother, is BPD. It is remarkable how she exhibits this defense mechanism. She appears to have no realization of it at all, as you have stated in this video. I am looking for strategies on how to understand and deal with her behaviors, particularly how to protect my son.
My mother project her homosexuality on me she talk Everytime about my sexuality my orientation but I m hetero I'm married with man when I talk about LGBT with my friend or someone else just like that she say me Everytime "why ? Why do you talk about that with your friend ? What happened ? Why you sleep whit your friend ?" I say "it's like to talk about time or about shopping it's nothing " but she talk to me every time about my sexuality when I talk that she stress me
Really great concise definition yes a very confusing term , I agree just started studying Melanie Kleines work It appears as a much stronger form of projection but in with this IS denial that is the twist or loop in conscious -subconscious processing the point is that spatially and temporarily i guess the child is protectively identifying with what Melanie Kleine called involved in PId, she then becomes associated or the holder of the "bad breast" , bad experience and this identification gels or solidifies into the actual object , she was the first person along wih Bion to use this term in her work with children who were on the autism-schizoid spectrum ie thier internal object had split by the re introjection of the bad Mother and breast because the mother couldn't handle or respond properly to the increasing force of the projection the baby needed to deposit in order to demonstrate I guess about the dynamic which was causing it pain , later morphs when the parasitic element of the pysche takes over your "psychotics". Originally it may have been the Mother was herself in denial and the idea you represent of the object may have some relevance ie the baby sense the neurotic -defensive Mother but cannot do anything to alter her behaviour other than forcibly project and reintroject , a vicious catch 22 situation can build up , later this forms the basis of the adult or teenagers breakdown schizoid psychosis ie in my case it was better handled when i took LSD neurasthenia , eveen the desire to label patients could be seen as a very mild form of PrId the need to see bad , "ill" out there and not "ill" here etc. I would question 4:52 min in whether for the very young baby whether the bad breast IS just a fantasy for the baby it seems very real it is a bad or traumatic emotional experience . Will watch rest later just got up need to shower but ummm . Watch the rest later has been very help full many thanks IT is best to see it as a fluid dynamic Mother -Baby and later adult having a deeply regressive episode in which he she is resorting to PrId , yes it takes alot of containing and unraveling a whole branch of analysis is dedicated to it , classically seen in Bruno Betleheims book the empty fortress. 6:00 min in Fantastic from what you might call still a rather Newtonian perspective you have nailed it beautifully BUT It IS extremely complex and as you quite rightly say very difficult to expose ! Because underneath the pseudo adult ego structure the repressed fear of the omni potent baby must never be seen , the adapted child has merged with the adult and hijacked it . The classic examples are murder cases , whilst healthy individuals may feel int rage they have enough good reflective ego capability to realize they cannot murder said person and even start to wonder what this is all about and seek to explore it either in therapy or with the other , the psychotic ( BP i guess) doesn't or doesn't want to .the epi center lies in the fragmented repressed early images ( imago ) of the child . It is or these are the most difficult subjects in analysis or rather i believe this is the primary defensive position in us all here is the difficulty we are all given certain very stress full situations able or prone to regress and then defensively use Pr Id , the more powerful form of normal projection as adults not realizing what we are doing in the adult psyche usually this muted or undercover psychosis is in the form of narcissism . This self idealization or self love as M Kl et al says attacking the tendency to positive libidinal impulse or drive tendency this earlier dynamic is what makes it so difficult to expose a kind of loop . Some therapist like Rd Laing have postulated breakdown or breakthrough ie a clean regression gives most opportunity but usually the adult development has such power full narcissistic negative destructive qualities this is used as defense . 8:20 min in again you have brilliantly elucidated the problem and why generally in the West there is this tendency to regress to the Omni potent baby who is subconsciously hijacking the adult ego state .. Power politics , wealthy elite etc are sectors made up in the main from people who tend to do this and evade exposure all their lives . the environment is manipulated by them to endorse their behaviour as Ok , greed , cruelty , using and abusing . Narcissistically dominated personalities seek power and thus often collude with the defense or self idealizing aspect concretizing the problem as the "other" it is part of our archaic past , justifications for all manner of hideous behaviour . Classically you made me do it ! YES I completely agree again with why courts , judges etc do NOT spot it take the case of a well known child murderer who has convinced people he is all most fit for release without exhibiting any guilt or real e realization of what he has done as compared or contrasted with the lifer who began to do this after years of isolation and diffuse breakdown of his internal structures said before Trevor Mc Donald i deserve to die ! This is too much for most people to own this is as M Kl says the normal depressive -neurotic position which is still confused ie masochistic but better than or further down the line than thee pyschotic -schizoid one . Unfortunately these types of problems are endemic in modern civilization and until we can get a much deeper betterand clearer understanding and there is widespread use of psychoanalysis and this form of depth psychology they will remain , currently we treat physical illnesses seriously but do NOT see or respond to possible mental ones usually until it is too late ie the shootings in America and the rise of tyrants . Also the cost for many people is prohibitive . Many thanks for your video very use full indeed , developing a sense of inter dependency is also key but anyway ....go well R Your thoughts comments welcome
will when you do be part of to the subject or object. will that can be different you can understand what happen very will. it's difficult feeling. because something tell you you are right when you feel you are wrong. and tell you you are wrong when you feeling you are right!. I think it's just the way when subject try to save it's self from realty that object can know the weaknesses. while the object gets angry because it's thinks the subject does not trust it. it's complected but it's normal.
Is this the same mechanism where the subject tries to actually create her rejected situation happen in the life of the object? Or is there another name for that? Thank you!
+keri Ak001 You are on to something there. The negative aspects they project is something they can not identify in them selves. It hurts to much. The projection makes it come to light outside them selves. Its not the subjects shortage, it has become the objects problem. "The problem is out there", not inside the subject. The subject is creating his/her own negative traits, by threats and manipulation, in the object. And the object start acting as if this trait belong to the object. Example: Subject: You are aggressive ! (low voice, manipulating, projecting) Object: NO I AM NOT! (aggressive) Subject: There you see, he/she is aggressive! (Identify with his/her projected aggression)
If you are the object in this scenario then do not attempt to explain what happened to you because you will appear crazy. It is a complicated scenario that plays out over much time and bpd folks really believe you are scary even if you never physically hurt them. It is sad for all that are involved and the way out is only carefully distancing yourself from the subject bpd. Jesus can heal all.
It's not that difficult to help people who use projective identification frequently. One just needs to help the person discover the underlying trauma which has them stuck at a primitive level and facilitate their working it through. It's much more difficult to deal with in an everyday relationship where there is no working relationship or intent to become aware of ones destructive behavior patterns.
thanks alot for this amazingly clear video. i've been struggling for a while with this concept. not knowing if i thruely grasped it. until now. a question. how does this mechanism relate to empathy deficits in the subject? or to put it differently, if the subject were yo have no deficit in emphathy towards the object, would the subject then still be able to play this projective identification game with the object?
living as an expat in another country. i have forgotten the pincode for the atm card and went to the bank branch to get another one. the asistant told me that if i can't remember it, i would have needed to get a new card. i knew it was a rip-off. i got upset and raised my voice and lost my temper. the assistant didn't react likewise, simply asked to to try the possible code. it thankfully worked. i wish i could have keept my temper and calmly tackle the bullshit. not a projective identification case, but i still keep it with me. not good
I disagree. There doent have to be interaction. It can be behavioral as in constantly bumping into people which demonstrates intrusion. No communication need to occur it is a primative defense that happens the person who feels the p. I. Doesn't have to accept these traits. It can happen w no speech. The best example is how a normal person feels when someone dies. Its normal durimg death. There doesnt have to acceptance by the object.
You sir, are a legend for giving this explanation. I thought I knew what projection was, but this is more in-depth and this gives an exact portrait of what my sister does to me. I could not explain it to her. (Not that she would listen to anything I would have to say anyway) Especially stealing my features (and ideas, anything good I do) and puts all the bad (of her) onto me. My sister does this to me ALL the time! But worse has her puppet friends and also gets other people to hate me whenever she can. Practically everyone in my family are narcissists. I have always been the quiet one and just tried to stay invisible/keep out of their way. One amazing thing my sister said to me once was "At least I get help for *MY* problems" ( I honestly had NO idea what she was talking about). I knew she had therapy but honestly I think it has made her behaviour WORSE! She is a lot more aggressive. (does that happen? This was when she cornered me, got me alone, went into a narc rage, after I had got away from her and not talked to her for about 10 mths) Anyway I will just end by saying I just LOVE this video. Especially from 8:00 - taking your good qualities too - I didn't know that was part of it, I thought that was a whole separate thing.:-)
Thank you. This is a very complicated behavior that involves many different processes. "Splitting" is one defense important for this deviant behavior. As you can se these people have serious problems about their own borders go Self. The division between ME and YOU (subject/objekct) is disturbed.
Rune Fardal That's what I often said to others: don't get angry about it, it's MY business! I'M responsible! So WHY does your boss get angry with you while I did something? It doesn't make sense! And why don't you allow me to grieve over the end over our friendship? IT"S MY GRIEVE!!
Iv always been interested in the language of denial and types of behaviours. I'm starting my masters in Pyscothreapry in sept and this helps with understanding my mothers toxic behaviour. Great video ! I'm from London
The problem is that the users of this psychological defence dont understand that they use it. Explaining it to them makes them feel humiliated. There are several ways to handle this. One is to leave and another is to try explain this without blaming them. This is a narcissistic defence and held responsible they will defend themselves. One way is to explain them that this hurt YOU and YOUR feelings. A sort of reversed psychology. That you find this difficult and that it hurt you. But again, this requires empathy in that person and that is often missing in these persons.
My psychiatrist keeps saying that I am crazy, but I can see that he is projecting his own craziness onto me. It is he that needs to take his meds. He is the one that keeps violating the protective order. He is the one looking out at me from the mirror every morning!
I follow ogdens definition the capacity of one person to elicit feelings in another parson. It might be useful in an interpretation ,for the only give us a fraction of what they're going through.
Narcissist must have a secret class or read from the same book because I have looked into so many terms related to narcissism and I didn’t see one that didn’t identify with a narcissist
Glad i could be of help. Its very complicated in real life to expose this behavior, specially if one don't have the knowledge of this psychological defence mechanism.
I think I've commented here before, but I had to watch it again. This is such an excellent explanation of such a complicated process! What really helps are the visuals. Thanks so much.
It's also possible that both the "subject" and "object" have a trait they are both unconsciously aware of, in which case they both act as the object and subject at the same time. It gets very confusing lol.
Seeing it or not, they never admit to this traits. They live in the light of their false grandiosity. This has to do with nerve structures, and connections between neurons and synapses. Their traumatic starting point has as far as one know today little possibility of change. Change would imply reality understanding of them selves, which they don't. They really think their grandiose fantasy is reality!
Are you refering to narcissists. I seen it in psychotic depressives and bordeline personality disorder. Kernberg would say anyone with bpo
This happened to me. It was the most disorienting confusing thing I've experienced. Two years later and my reputation still feels tarnished. This was a good reminder to stay away from people this toxic.
@Untethered hi there, would you be interested to elaborate at all or no?
1. Projective identification in this form is mostly seen in people with personality disturbance an psychothic persons. They often have described early traumas.
2. For most subjects this happens unconscious, it become concious for them when they identify with it in the object. The claims they make against the object is fantasy, because its not the object but the subject that has these traits.
My wife engaged in this behaviour with great detriment to me. I now have problems with the legal system.
1. She was born in a foreign country and her parents left her there as an infant while they came over here. Later, she was molested by an uncle.
2. Having done some research on BPD/NPD, I confronted her: "I know you know I know" and she dissociated. Blank eyed stare. There IS some core understanding of what she is doing, but she cannot admit or tolerate it.
3. She is a psychiatric nurse who must know this
Rune, towards the end of this vid you touch on introjective identification in an interesting way....concerning Ns and Bdlines...which explains why people they target feel like they have been 'soulraped'...the predator 'steals' the core identity and qualities of the target. Thank you.
Like many others here, understanding this phenomenon in psychology has helped me tremendously in my personal affairs. Thank you.
I want to thank you again :-) Now I understand that others CAN manipulate my feelings and make me feel bad about myself, I have the ability to not to be manipulated. I have the control over my emotions that I want. You have helped me out of immense suffering. Bless you for your part in this.
Sounds like a diagnosis for racism. So we can say that being racist is projection & racism (stereotyping, racial profiling & prejudice) are projective identification.
Unfortunately, believe this or not, licensed professional therapists are not allowed to speak on the matter of RACISM.....
From what you write i think the trauma of his fathers death may have brought about his behavior today. In a therapeutic setting you cant fight back on the projection, it makes things worse. What you can do is make him understand that his projected material hurts you (without blaming him). His aggression scares you and so on. He probably needs help from someone versed in and with a deeper understanding of PI. Normal therapeuts dont have this.
This is such a great little video. I often share it with clients and friends to explain this extremely complex behavior that is so devastating, particularly to children.
Thank you Isobel, its a behaviour that makes serious problem for many people in contact with this kins of behaviour. Learning about this can help many to avoid and at least understand.
Do you have any insights into what is happening in the psyche of the person projected upon and why? EG becoming confused and unsure of my own reality , questioning ...perhaps he is right. In the moment it feels like hell, like a kick in the gut, and I "collapse' and loose my sense of self.
To my knowledge, what happens is the subjects (unconscious) need to identify with the unbearable behavior in them selves, connected to their own trauma! As long as the negative traits stays in the object (projected) it does not threaten the subject. The subject is able to ACTIVATE emotions and affect in the object, similar to the projected material. This leads to confusion in the object because the object normally has self-insight enough to se that this behavior they have been manipulated into, is not coming from their own self. Thats why they question themselves, "Am i the crazy one"? Asking this question is also a sign of normality. Narcissists don't ask this questions about themselves.
Rune Fardal
Thank you. I am most grateful for your imput.
@@rufa Doctor,I think I may be narcissistic. How can I improve?
Im not sure if one can say the subject dont see these traits, is in denial og if they are displaced. That is maybe not the most important. What is important is that the subject denies these traits in them selves at the same time as they identifies with these traits in the object. The importance for the subject is that these traits is not associated by their own selves. And if they are, its because of the object. The subject is not held responsible.
Trobble with PI is that this often is unconscious, meaning your boyfriend does not se any projection coming from him. He only identifies whit the projected material in his object-representation of you. His mental picture of you, consisting of the aggression he projected.
Problem is, you cant talk about the aggression. The reason he project is that this material is unbearable to him. He will deny it. Its not part of his conscious picture of him selves.
Thank you Rune. Projective identification is something I've always struggled to grasp, but you have explained it simply and clearly.
This is so interesting and completely endorses what I have been talking about for a long time...ie who the anger belongs to. The most interesting part for me is that the origins of the anger is not in the subject's awareness. I think this is critical in understanding and accepting this very popular behaviour!..I used to be that projecting person until I worked my way through and out of it completely, having realised all the negative and destrucive things in my life were coming from me, not to me. I and am now having karmic payback but finding it almost impossible to deal with as recipient. Thank you for this easy and wonderful explanation.
The context is essential in validating your hypothesis. Anger often can be caused by willing sadistic behavior (unduly exercise of power) by person B (the object). This happens very often when there is a power unbalance. The degree of anger triggered, is proportional to the tolerance for stress by person A.
@ Linda Middlemist
I'm sorry to hear that. What we give we receive back: I'm learning that too... not theoretically, as before, but in experience: and it may all just be what Dr Lee, who healed a hospital ward full of insane people, by Ho'oponopono, called his "data stream". Whatever around us, on our own particular life, is what we heal: outside of us as well as inside.
Thus we step out of karma.
I've spent the last 2 hours desperately trying to understand this concept and,thanks to your video, I have finally mastered it! Thank you so much!!!! 😀😀😀😀😀
My pleasure Anna Boyd :-)
Thank you so much for your videos. I believe this is what happened between my NPD mother and myself. I didn't know it at the time and I lived out what she kept telling me I was. Now several years later I have woken up. However she and my ex husband are still trying to convince me I am someone I am not. I realise it is their own unconscious shame. Trying to explain that to anyone is almost impossible. As a result my children suffer from parental alienation and psychological abuse. I have been shunned and scapegoated from my family. I wish I had woken up sooner. Thank you again
Each day is a new day. Its never too late to make a fresher and a better start.
My Family and also some very narc people I Unfortunately had to work with
Sickos
Thanks for the explanation. Projective identification is indeed very subtle!
Very well explanation of a very complex & complicated psychological matter.
www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artikler/projeksjon.htm
english translation: translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artikler/projeksjon.htm
Introjection, projection and denial, as a Finnish analyst Veikko Tähkä put it. This is always the case when dealing with people with no object/subject constancy. They have no real boundaries, and that fact makes them very consuming in relationships of any kind. They are leeches.
The SUBJECT seeks answers, knowledge that "emotional immaturity" denies him...perhaps, even healing...most OBJECTS are incapable of giving (due to lack of understanding the situation),...The OBJECT should respond with calmness, (assuming object is aware of the subject's narcissism). demonstrating, good-will, convincing the (child)/SUBJECT that Aggression, soon evaporates when handled properly, with little anger or further exertion possible... Communication is key and the wanting to end rather than furthering negative AGGRESSION....the narcissist Projective Identification can be used to MODIFY or, manipulate, add structure with-in the narcissist inner, barren landscape, (the void between grandiosity and reality). You have explained this very well Doctor, Thank you very much!
Excellent, thank you! I realize that I see this happen all the time, after your explanation. Very, very true and very concerning what you say about miscarriage of justice due to protective identification.
Yes, the lack of object/subject constancy is a prerequisite for projective identification. Perception of your own behavior as belonging to others, has an element of not so healthy boundaries. Very confusing for the surroundings.
Story of my life. Mum borderline, Dad narc, 3 breakdowns on way to fourth!
I am so glad I found this information. It helps explain a lot and it is my opinion that every social worker should study this subject.
I wish I had understood this dynamic sooner. I didn’t know what scapegoat abuse was in families and now I see my siblings do not have any awareness of what they are doing no matter how much they are confronted with the truth. We endured so much trauma growing up and they refuse to get help and instead want to blame me for things that are wrong just like our narcissistic parent did.
Jesus christ narcissism kills existing empathy in sacrifice for chronic pain-relief
Very useful. Layers upon layers. Your clear definitions and articulation make a great basis for discussion. Thank you Rune.
Oh the pains of maturing, I'm 46 and only just getting my head around this, nice job explaining it.
Is the narcissist ever capable of seeing the reality in this situation, or are they forever stuck in this kind of thinking?
My older sister does this, but mainly on one topic. She's insecure and vain, but yesterday when she was going on I (diplomatically) tried to tell her it's a family of origin theme, that appearance is very important, and she ended up saying vanity is my issue when it's not. If it's mostly unconscious there is no way of correcting her ways. She can be quite aggressive in obsessing about it, but comes across like a hyper cheerleader. Really gets on my nerves. Wish she would get therapy, but she believes there's too much of a stigma attached to it, plus she's heavily into magical thinking not self-reflection.
Thank you so much. I just experienced this and was accused of the behaviours I was pushing back on, and did not back down on it, and was discarded in a cold, unfeeling way. It was confusing and created self-doubt but this has explained the situation so clearly and given me peace in my heart and mind. It is also scary to think what type of person I was dealing with. Who knows how bad it could have gotten? :O
This was such a helpful, useful video. It has been invaluable when I've worked with supervisees and we are all struggling with a clear understanding of this toxic dynamic. It really helps to protect the innocent.
I endured a narcissistic " reign of terror " from infancy thru 17 yrs of age. I recall the symmetry between my Dad's own, brutal violence and his feral projectivity toward my Mother and myself. During his violent tirades, his words always painted an inadvertent "self-portrait " of his own feral cruelty, always projected outward onto others, where it remained un-examined. Since those days, I've dealt 24/7 with chronic, insidious clinical depression, Introjective identification and suicidal ideation: but I am still here.
This is a very confusing explanation for me. But I was searching bc I learned about this from my therapist. My mother was badly abused- and she is a highly toxic sick woman who never got help. She has always been abusive. If she wants to fight there is no avoiding it. She will act in passive aggressive or even aggressive aggressive ways- she'd always do it when she thought I was all alone, when dad was gone, on the phone, in the car. After being bullied- and provoked- of course the natural response is to get defensive and fight back- and THEN! Oh boy- she's got you. When they sense they've gotten under your skin they sadistically ramp UP their efforts. Then in response to your defense- SHE is the VICTIM. Now you've sank to her level and YOU are demonized, & scapegoated. Ostracized- isolated... thank god for technology and iPhones because for the first time ever- I recorded her screaming at me- trying to provoke me to fight. I escaped and have it to bring to my therapist for help.
If you react aggressively to being told you are aggressive... Then you are a bit aggressive no? If you react calmly to that, you totally ruin their point.
+mirawenya Being falsely accused of something you are not by the person you love is enfuriating. Even more if it happens over and over again. They will accuse you of something they know will push your buttons. The person then threatens to abandon you/hurt you for reasons that are a complete invention. Anger and frustration is inevitable.
I am an MSW student who stumble upon this video while trying to understand this defense mechanism for a class. If someone uses this defense mechanism, can they automatically be labeled a narcissist? During a couple of arguments with my husband, he has called me passive aggressive, aggressive and mean. I have never been any of those things, but I began second guessing myself. Am I passive aggressive, etc? After watching this video I really feel like my husband is using this defense mechanism. His words really made me feel bad about myself-and defensive! How does a therapist manage a client using projective identification? I sometimes see my teenage son acting this way as well and I would like to address it with him.
Can they automatically be labeled a narcissist? : NO!
Sandi V It is really hard to give diagnosis if you are not a doctor. I think if you do not act the same way towards him, acting in the opposite you will find him easier to relate to. But don't think you can change just by giving more love, he is not broken soul, it runs deeper towards being a moral inversion.When we think of relationship exchange as energy exchanges. We can see the normal exchanges can be positive, they innately know what the rules for health exchange so they are self-aware as they break the rules to amass 'energy' for themselves.This is normal called 'narcissistic supply' in trade language of therapist. You have to accept him for who he is.
There a lot of different sorts of narcissism; exhibitive, destructive, hungry, manipulative, suspicious.What you have to remember is there is not a cure for it. My friend and I think that psychiatrists commit suicide because they try to treat clients like this but that another thing.Your son is probably coping it off your spouse because he is the same sex parent. it is a real hard thing because he is his father.You need to distance yourself through emotional insulation, to protect your psychological being'. The 'second guessing' is part of the way he is putting you under his control.Stop seeing him as a source of love. Find it from other things, gardening, reading or belong to a group.Try to see how where he is exploiting your vulnerability, where he can push your buttons. Pretend to agree when it seems he is not being reasonable. Let argument go by not taking the hook, don't try to challenge him, deflect, deflect deflect. If he sees you are not reacting to his behaviour he will back off. Conversations will start to get easier, there will be less drama because he will see you cannot be 'got at".Giving him with therapy labels is red flags to him, don't. You don't need a label for him, the behaviour doesn't need to be given one for it to exist.But get out if he gets physically abusive. You are not going to change him but you can show his behaviour cannot affect you, at the same time protect yourself.A good book to read is Loving the Self-Absorbed by Nina W. Brown. Remind yourself, you cannot do anything to help him on your own.
Understandable. See, I have a past issue with anger and people often use that against me. They often bring up the past to try and hurt me if I say anything to defend myself against their attacks whether they are direct or indirect. I'd say that if certain people can't get over themselves in order to neutralize a disagreement, then that could be a symptom of narcissism.
marshall886 But he is who he is not because he wants to be this way but because of the way he was raised-because of his core beliefs about himself. Maybe he is "a broken soul."
You have got to see that as humans we are not rational. It is not his behaviour you need to change because you cannot, but yours. You cannot afford this kind of reasoning.You will lost equilibrium. You need to create a wall in a place where he cannot get through to manipulate you.A lot of women don't are not interested in politics, they are spared the debate they would have with a politically minded man and are left alone.While you don't have diagnosis, the behaviour is instrumentally narcissistic. Your goal is to protect your individual self in the relationship as well as providing an example of what a functional adult is to your son. Instead of feeling emotions you need to think through feelings. With practice it can come more natural. Believe there is part of you that cannot be affected or disturbed by what people say or do to you. Carry out your commitment to the household and family, it needs to function, finances, shopping, bills, cooking etc. Whether is is a relative or someone you are married to, it is your commitment to be in the relationship, remember you are being there on your terms.Try validating it by whatever thing religion belief or philosophical thing, you are not seeking anything you from them that you need to function(sunlight, water etc), like a change in behaviour.Try to seek agreement without making issues out of things, let things go if they are too hard, work to optimise areas where you have goodwill, while all the time choosing not to give power to his behaviour. In order to do so, you need to see how he is behaviour, to know what it is.Giving you room for self awareness to respond to it freely, if he gives you no choice go through with it but give him choices for next time so it doesn't happen again. But you cannot if you indulge that he is broken soul.You will be under his power again in no time.And that is what he is after. Renegotiate other matters like sex, so it is not an arena where the manipulation and power struggle carries across to the physical. The only pleasure may be in it as an act of service.You can choose to participate as an unselfish act like giving charity to someone less fortunate but prepare your mind so you can do this consciously; remember you see yourself as another person living in the relationship, he sees you as an extension of himself. Don't let him think you are inferior or superior to him.
I'm wondering if ANY subject has been trained to act more appropriately regardless of established neuron connections. I'm guessing it depends on severity of this diagnosis and the willingness to practice and then experience reinforcing outcomes . .
extremely well explained video. this is the best explanation of these complicated defense mechanisms i have ever heard, thank you so much, i am a second year psychiatry resident and this is really helpful for me especially when i am in my initial stages of psychotherapy training.
Yes. Narcissists especially are masters of their craft, unbeknownst to themselves! Thank you for explaining this to the world.
A helpful and lucid explanation of this complex phenomena - the diagrams are much better than the ones I drew many years ago when explaining this to a group! I admire you making the video in English - it can't be easy talking about these concepts in another language.
Thank you! Great video about projective identification.
Thank you dear... I understand the complicated picture with your sincere and clear explanation.
Thank you Rune. You made clear the concept and helped shed light on a situation in my own life. I am grateful for your sharing your knowledge. Be blessed.
+Rose Ann Vita My pleasure.
This is an excellent explanation for such a complex phenomenon that is usually difficult to understand. It is very helpful. Very well drawn and explained. Thank you. :)
Do you have other videos on different defense mechanisms?
Very clear Sir,
Hi, thank you for a really good explanation. When I saw your video, all the pieces fell in place with my mother in law. She has had this behavior on and off for the last nine years, targeting different persons in the close family, and it seems to get stronger. Currently my partner is in the line of fire, and they just sink deeper and deeper into the conflict. Do you have any advice how to relate to this, being an object? I think she could have a borderline personality, but never had any help.
Jungian shadow theory may refer to an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself. In psychopathology i am not sure one can identify these traits in one selves. After al these traits is connected to very strong affects. At the same time, at some sub-conscious level the subject identifies with these traits, but misplace them in the object. Identification with these traits in the subjects self, means self-knowledge normaly lacking in the subject.
this is so good explanation
Finally someone who can explain this. So, how do you resolve that inner conflict?
scottjeffrey.com/shadow-work/
I lived, unknowingly, with a narcissist for 10 years. I recognized early in the marriage that my ex had a mother issue. Again, not knowing anything about psychopathic behavior, I struggled with my once happy life. He killed two of my chihuahuas (one in front of me) and the authorities did nothing because he lied to them.
Then his attempt at extorting money from me did work in his favor and was part of the divorce settlement. BUT, after the divorce my discovery of his three felonies and one charge of “theft by deception “ went unheard by the court (miscarriage of justice).
He does operate “under the radar” as I then discovered I was his 5th wife!
He hoodwinked me, and his betrayal stole 10 years of my life.
He is currently searching for #6…at the age of 79. A freeloader extraordinaire.
I truly enjoyed your video
Sorry! this is really complicated, but I do live a real life situation.
I mixed up subject and object. I meant it the other way around, I think...
At the point that the one manipulated one is ready to have the Family's help stopping the suffering, and confront the one inflicting the pain. What would be the solution since we are aware the one inflicting the pain will get even more manipulative.
what would cause a child to never move onto the depressive position from the paranoid schizoid? A person very close to me has had a very bad childhood (abusive parent, given up for adoption etc) and everything with her is "all or nothing", it's as if she was never able to leave the paranoid schizoid phase. It's extremely destructive and while I was taught it in class, it was only glossed over.
so the only solution is to remove myself from his enviroment and stop the interaction with him? Will this eventually help him understand that I am not the source of his aggression? Are there any papers on how the object should respond
Thank you, the person I married did this, Very dangerous deranged individual, put on me things I could never imagine to come up with, it’s a form of abuse that is so mind twisting consumes your every moment. They traumatize you, it’s hard to believe they really believe this.
He had it made, yes psychopath s difficult like living with demons.
Almost died of trauma panic high blood pressure.
Not only blame, they punish, steal,abuse you. They don’t know when to stop.
Though I find it difficult to 100% believe, the SUBJECT is not aware of what it is doing....I know for a fact that in my experience the SUBJECT (narcissist) was completely aware of what it was doing. Though there is the matter of: for what ends?...in this scenario, I guess you are correct. Thank you Doctor.
I learned about projective identification in my social work masters program but I have to admit I never fully understood it. Your video is by far the clearest explanation I have seen yet for how this works. Thank you.
Oh my God, this is so complex, and yet clarifying so much. Now what if both are doing the same thing...
have wondered what splitting was.....thank-you. wonder about artists working with people. is the emotional content of that portrait really me or what you[artist] think you see....oh my,paint flowers for peace.
For a difficult and complex subject you did an excellent job of presenting the material in an understandable way to the layperson. Absolutely fascinating stuff.
I really enjoyed your video. You manage to explain a very complex theory in simple and easy to understand terms. As a social science researcher, I hope this will help me to develop better and more reflexive understandings of my relationship with my research participants. Thanks :)
My pleasure.
Dessverre så er dette noe jeg har sett mye til... I BVT, NAV og helsevesenet. Det er vanskelig å finne et forsvar mot slik atferd, særlig ettersom maktdynamikken er asymmetrisk, og basert på synsing og føleri hos den ene parten.
Wtf I just realized I am doing this. What the hell is happening. It was all a lie??? What the hell I believed it so much, this is some next level manipulation I've been doing oh fuckkkkkk
My ex-wife, and son's mother, is BPD. It is remarkable how she exhibits this defense mechanism. She appears to have no realization of it at all, as you have stated in this video. I am looking for strategies on how to understand and deal with her behaviors, particularly how to protect my son.
My mother project her homosexuality on me she talk Everytime about my sexuality my orientation but I m hetero I'm married with man when I talk about LGBT with my friend or someone else just like that she say me Everytime "why ? Why do you talk about that with your friend ? What happened ? Why you sleep whit your friend ?" I say "it's like to talk about time or about shopping it's nothing " but she talk to me every time about my sexuality when I talk that she stress me
Really great concise definition yes a very confusing term , I agree just started studying Melanie Kleines work
It appears as a much stronger form of projection but in with this IS denial that is the twist or loop in conscious -subconscious processing the point is that spatially and temporarily i guess the child is protectively identifying with what Melanie Kleine called involved in PId, she then becomes associated or the holder of the "bad breast" , bad experience and this identification gels or solidifies into the actual object , she was the first person along wih Bion to use this term in her work with children who were on the autism-schizoid spectrum ie thier internal object had split by the re introjection of the bad Mother and breast because the mother couldn't handle or respond properly to the increasing force of the projection the baby needed to deposit in order to demonstrate I guess about the dynamic which was causing it pain , later morphs when the parasitic element of the pysche takes over your "psychotics".
Originally it may have been the Mother was herself in denial and the idea you represent of the object may have some relevance ie the baby sense the neurotic -defensive Mother but cannot do anything to alter her behaviour other than forcibly project and reintroject , a vicious catch 22 situation can build up , later this forms the basis of the adult or teenagers breakdown schizoid psychosis ie in my case it was better handled when i took LSD neurasthenia , eveen the desire to label patients could be seen as a very mild form of PrId the need to see bad , "ill" out there and not "ill" here etc.
I would question 4:52 min in whether for the very young baby whether the bad breast IS just a fantasy for the baby it seems very real it is a bad or traumatic emotional experience . Will watch rest later just got up need to shower but ummm . Watch the rest later has been very help full many thanks
IT is best to see it as a fluid dynamic Mother -Baby and later adult having a deeply regressive episode in which he she is resorting to PrId , yes it takes alot of containing and unraveling a whole branch of analysis is dedicated to it , classically seen in Bruno Betleheims book the empty fortress.
6:00 min in
Fantastic from what you might call still a rather Newtonian perspective you have nailed it beautifully BUT It IS extremely complex and as you quite rightly say very difficult to expose ! Because underneath the pseudo adult ego structure the repressed fear of the omni potent baby must never be seen , the adapted child has merged with the adult and hijacked it . The classic examples are murder cases , whilst healthy individuals may feel int rage they have enough good reflective ego capability to realize they cannot murder said person and even start to wonder what this is all about and seek to explore it either in therapy or with the other , the psychotic ( BP i guess) doesn't or doesn't want to .the epi center lies in the fragmented repressed early images ( imago ) of the child .
It is or these are the most difficult subjects in analysis or rather i believe this is the primary defensive position in us all here is the difficulty we are all given certain very stress full situations able or prone to regress and then defensively use Pr Id , the more powerful form of normal projection as adults not realizing what we are doing in the adult psyche usually this muted or undercover psychosis is in the form of narcissism .
This self idealization or self love as M Kl et al says attacking the tendency to positive libidinal impulse or drive tendency this earlier dynamic is what makes it so difficult to expose a kind of loop .
Some therapist like Rd Laing have postulated breakdown or breakthrough ie a clean regression gives most opportunity but usually the adult development has such power full narcissistic negative destructive qualities this is used as defense .
8:20 min in again you have brilliantly elucidated the problem and why generally in the West there is this tendency to regress to the Omni potent baby who is subconsciously hijacking the adult ego state ..
Power politics , wealthy elite etc are sectors made up in the main from people who tend to do this and evade exposure all their lives . the environment is manipulated by them to endorse their behaviour as Ok , greed , cruelty , using and abusing .
Narcissistically dominated personalities seek power and thus often collude with the defense or self idealizing aspect concretizing the problem as the "other" it is part of our archaic past , justifications for all manner of hideous behaviour . Classically you made me do it !
YES I completely agree again with why courts , judges etc do NOT spot it take the case of a well known child murderer who has convinced people he is all most fit for release without exhibiting any guilt or real e realization of what he has done as compared or contrasted with the lifer who began to do this after years of isolation and diffuse breakdown of his internal structures said before Trevor Mc Donald i deserve to die !
This is too much for most people to own this is as M Kl says the normal depressive -neurotic position which is still confused ie masochistic but better than or further down the line than thee pyschotic -schizoid one .
Unfortunately these types of problems are endemic in modern civilization and until we can get a much deeper betterand clearer understanding and there is widespread use of psychoanalysis and this form of depth psychology they will remain , currently we treat physical illnesses seriously but do NOT see or respond to possible mental ones usually until it is too late ie the shootings in America and the rise of tyrants . Also the cost for many people is prohibitive .
Many thanks for your video very use full indeed , developing a sense of inter dependency is also key but anyway ....go well R
Your thoughts comments welcome
will when you do be part of to the subject or object. will that can be different you can understand what happen very will. it's difficult feeling. because something tell you you are right when you feel you are wrong. and tell you you are wrong when you feeling you are right!. I think it's just the way when subject try to save it's self from realty that object can know the weaknesses. while the object gets angry because it's thinks the subject does not trust it. it's complected but it's normal.
Is this the same mechanism where the subject tries to actually create her rejected situation happen in the life of the object? Or is there another name for that? Thank you!
+keri Ak001 You are on to something there. The negative aspects they project is something they can not identify in them selves. It hurts to much. The projection makes it come to light outside them selves. Its not the subjects shortage, it has become the objects problem. "The problem is out there", not inside the subject. The subject is creating his/her own negative traits, by threats and manipulation, in the object. And the object start acting as if this trait belong to the object.
Example:
Subject: You are aggressive ! (low voice, manipulating, projecting)
Object: NO I AM NOT! (aggressive)
Subject: There you see, he/she is aggressive! (Identify with his/her projected aggression)
+Rune Fardal Thank you!
sounds like a military application---Did you know $cience is a religion very much like atheism?
Still stuck on psychoanalytic concepts? It's 2013, can we please transition to empirical based approaches?
If you are the object in this scenario then do not attempt to explain what happened to you because you will appear crazy. It is a complicated scenario that plays out over much time and bpd folks really believe you are scary even if you never physically hurt them. It is sad for all that are involved and the way out is only carefully distancing yourself from the subject bpd. Jesus can heal all.
It's not that difficult to help people who use projective identification frequently. One just needs to help the person discover the underlying trauma which has them stuck at a primitive level and facilitate their working it through. It's much more difficult to deal with in an everyday relationship where there is no working relationship or intent to become aware of ones destructive behavior patterns.
thanks alot for this amazingly clear video. i've been struggling for a while with this concept. not knowing if i thruely grasped it. until now.
a question. how does this mechanism relate to empathy deficits in the subject? or to put it differently, if the subject were yo have no deficit in emphathy towards the object, would the subject then still be able to play this projective identification game with the object?
living as an expat in another country. i have forgotten the pincode for the atm card and went to the bank branch to get another one. the asistant told me that if i can't remember it, i would have needed to get a new card. i knew it was a rip-off. i got upset and raised my voice and lost my temper. the assistant didn't react likewise, simply asked to to try the possible code. it thankfully worked. i wish i could have keept my temper and calmly tackle the bullshit. not a projective identification case, but i still keep it with me. not good
I disagree. There doent have to be interaction. It can be behavioral as in constantly bumping into people which demonstrates intrusion. No communication need to occur it is a primative defense that happens the person who feels the p. I. Doesn't have to accept these traits. It can happen w no speech. The best example is how a normal person feels when someone dies. Its normal durimg death. There doesnt have to acceptance by the object.
So, does this mean that the subject does not see his own behavior? Or is it just denial?
Perfectly describes our current dilemma in the US in 2020
You sir, are a legend for giving this explanation. I thought I knew what projection was, but this is more in-depth and this gives an exact portrait of what my sister does to me. I could not explain it to her. (Not that she would listen to anything I would have to say anyway) Especially stealing my features (and ideas, anything good I do) and puts all the bad (of her) onto me. My sister does this to me ALL the time! But worse has her puppet friends and also gets other people to hate me whenever she can. Practically everyone in my family are narcissists. I have always been the quiet one and just tried to stay invisible/keep out of their way. One amazing thing my sister said to me once was "At least I get help for *MY* problems" ( I honestly had NO idea what she was talking about). I knew she had therapy but honestly I think it has made her behaviour WORSE! She is a lot more aggressive. (does that happen? This was when she cornered me, got me alone, went into a narc rage, after I had got away from her and not talked to her for about 10 mths) Anyway I will just end by saying I just LOVE this video. Especially from 8:00 - taking your good qualities too - I didn't know that was part of it, I thought that was a whole separate thing.:-)
Thank you. This is a very complicated behavior that involves many different processes. "Splitting" is one defense important for this deviant behavior. As you can se these people have serious problems about their own borders go Self. The division between ME and YOU (subject/objekct) is disturbed.
Rune Fardal That's what I often said to others: don't get angry about it, it's MY business! I'M responsible! So WHY does your boss get angry with you while I did something? It doesn't make sense! And why don't you allow me to grieve over the end over our friendship? IT"S MY GRIEVE!!
Iv always been interested in the language of denial and types of behaviours. I'm starting my masters in Pyscothreapry in sept and this helps with understanding my mothers toxic behaviour. Great video ! I'm from London
What is the best way to handle projective identification directed at you often by a partner?
The problem is that the users of this psychological defence dont understand that they use it. Explaining it to them makes them feel humiliated. There are several ways to handle this. One is to leave and another is to try explain this without blaming them. This is a narcissistic defence and held responsible they will defend themselves. One way is to explain them that this hurt YOU and YOUR feelings. A sort of reversed psychology. That you find this difficult and that it hurt you. But again, this requires empathy in that person and that is often missing in these persons.
Thank you for the response. I'm sort of stuck in this situation unfortunately. Gathering information has been helping me cope.
My psychiatrist keeps saying that I am crazy, but I can see that he is projecting his own craziness onto me. It is he that needs to take his meds. He is the one that keeps violating the protective order. He is the one looking out at me from the mirror every morning!
I follow ogdens definition the capacity of one person to elicit feelings in another parson. It might be useful in an interpretation ,for the only give us a fraction of what they're going through.
Thank you for your time in making this
If I may suggest in any explanation videos show the pen first in a whole act then do the analysis
Thank you for explaining this, this is what my spouse does to me. Time to move or get run over
Thank you very much for this explanation
Thank you for this detailed explanation!!
Narcissist must have a secret class or read from the same book because I have looked into so many terms related to narcissism and I didn’t see one that didn’t identify with a narcissist
I think I might project a lot. How can I be helped?
Thanks for this presentation it was very helpful
Why are you pronuancing projective as proactive?
Excellent video! Thank you !
Thank you so much its becoming clearer now
The visuals provide clarity.
We are aware thart confronting the subject can lead to na even more upseting manipulation on the subject part.
Is there a away out?
Yes get away.
Basically a form of Gaslighting?
Brilliant explanation, thank you
Maybe use copy instead of "steal"?
The number of books in his library...
Glad i could be of help. Its very complicated in real life to expose this behavior, specially if one don't have the knowledge of this psychological defence mechanism.
I think I've commented here before, but I had to watch it again. This is such an excellent explanation of such a complicated process! What really helps are the visuals. Thanks so much.