Multiple thoughts: 1. Apparently the fact that most of the riders of Rohan being played as women with beards glued on for the movies isn't too far off. 2. Really need a call out for Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. Her umbrella is more frightening than any sword.
Well this was due to the fact that it was hard to find enough professional rides locally in Aotearoa NZ, that were men, so that’s what they went with. Also there are more women riding in general than men, tho historically only soldiers and warriors rode on horseback.
Outstanding work. The tale of Haleth's people, like many tales of the First Age, is too often overlooked and is deserved of more praise. Thanks for this thoughtful recognition of the women of Tolkien's works.
Elf-women abstain from war: "For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the _nissi_ in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly..." HoMe X, Laws and Customs among the Eldar The folk of Haleth had a strange practice: "One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women." UT, The Druedain That custom, it was "strange to the Eldar and the other Atani".
@@aresgalamatis7022he didn't say they are the best examples. Just great ones. Idk they aren't necessarily the best examples but they are generally good.
Your channel is a breath of fresh air in this age if clickbait. Your review of LOTR War of the Rohirrim made me go out and watched it today and its cool to see them dive into niche lore of Rohan's history.
Ngl, I really loved Eowyn's portrayal in the 1983 animated adaptation of "Return of the King". She was incredibly gorgeous and fierce there. I wouldn't be surprised if Peter Jackson and/or Miranda Otto took inspiration from such version of the character
I really miss the old anime inspired American animation style where they colored in the eye-shadow and lipstick on characters without any defining drawn border for the color. Did the same thing in TMNM and G.I. Joe if I remember. And if I'm not incorrect, the same style was used for the "stretching drool" seen on the orcs in the animation.
Eowyn is highly praised for her deeds on the fields of Pelennor as is right. The price to do them was also great and worth to remember. She forsook her place as de facto queen leaving her people effectively leaderless in time of war. Her appointed task was a thankless one and others acknowledged that fact. In order to ride with the king on the field she also disobeys orders at least to some decree. Her seeming death drove Eomer into near suicide charge of his own. Her motives to do what she did are understandable and relatable but it is good to remember that similar deeds have also led to disaster. Price Faramir riding in secret into a battle comes to mind. Deed that in part led to end of king Ondohers line in Gondor. I liked the subject of the video, but felt that this is good place to raise the point above.
Thank you for this video! I love Tolkien's stories, and while I feel women are underrepresented in them (though good for the time in which they were written), the ones that are there are great characters.
Brilliant! I was a bit confused by the whole Sheild Maiden thing in WOTR but I still loved it. I'm happy to know that there were some examples of brave mortal women who fought too. It reminds me of what Eowyn says to Aragon, "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them." I'm also really interested in the suggested video you could also make about the other women. As a women, I really love how Tolkien respected women so much that they were more than simply political alliances, mothers and wives. They're really shown to be their own people. This especially at a time in the world that women were just seen and not heard
One of the things I really appreciate about Tolkien's world is that men and women seem to be equal and there's no mystery to it being so. The stories feature great heroines from different species and cultures and not only are they fierce and powerful, but they also have love and compassion🗡️💪 🙌❤️
@@godzillamaster34 Sorry, but you are low-information about Feminism (a creation of Communist men). From the inception of modern "Feminism" in the mid-1960s their loud and oft-repeated stated goal was *to abolish the family.* It is so obviously anti-father and anti-children and anti-marriage (and anti natural law) that I'm actually uncertain if you are joking (?). Feminism is the exact inverse of traditional values, of Christian value lol. Just Google right now something like "Feminism must dismantle the family." You're welcome! Open your eyes. They have fooled mothers to end 85 million of their own offspring for "convenience" and a "career." Women file for 80% of all divorce (always listing No Fault). Women today have a dozen or more sexual partners before they marry. Hardly virtuous. This is why Tolkien fans (his genuine fans) gatekeep his works. Make all the dumb feminist and goofy girl-boss movies you want; we don't care and don't watch them. We keep that garbage far away from our daughters. You seem to equate "feminism" with womanhood (lol). Feminism is a pernicious and inorganic far-Leftwing ideology. In Tolkien's own words: According to Tolkien, even the most intelligent women are enslaved by their instincts, prone to lose interest in a subject when their feelings limit their comprehension. He expands on the idea that women are dominated by their emotions in their desire for motherhood, saying, “Before the young woman knows where she is . . . she may actually ‘fall in love.’ Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man’s children” (49-50). He continues in this vein, claiming that women are inevitably driven by their desire for both motherhood and romance: “A young woman, even one ‘economically independent,’ as they say now . . . begins to think of the ‘bottom drawer’ and dream of a home, almost at once. If she really falls in love, the shipwreck may really end on the rocks,” whereas her male romantic partner “has a life-work, a career . . . all of which could (and do where he has any guts) survive the shipwreck of ‘love’” (50). Thus, according to Tolkien, women are more impulsive, emotional, and fragile than men. In Tolkien’s mind, the only thing worse than an “unspoiled natural young woman” operating on emotion is a woman who disregards societal expectations entirely. As he puts it, such disregard makes women “wanton” and “so depraved as to enjoy ‘conquests’” as men do (50). Tolkien’s specific sexist expectations for female behavior led him to believe that when women shun maternal desire and embrace typically male roles, they become depraved.
One of the interesting things is that despite the number of people who complain about the shortage of female characters in Tolkien (which makes no sense when you consider what he was trying to write and the time during which he lived), his female characters are among the best I have ever read. If the decision had been purely mine, my daughter's name would have been taken from Tolkien.
@@aresgalamatis7022 Well her voice breaking in that singing is part of the actress acting to portray Arwen being mournful to her family member but still carried on doing the traditional singing in the funeral to honor the Rohan dead. But I get how you feel. I felt a bit of cringe when I was little watching that scene, but when I got older, I understood what that meant.
What people tend to forget is that without Merry stabbing with the blade of Westernesse given to him by Tom Bombadil, Eowyn would not have been able to kill the Witch King. It was that blade that broke the “magic” that made him him unkillable.
I'm very interested in hearing you cover Tolkien's seeming infatuation with and influence by Norse mythology, especially concerning the Warriors of Rohan!
From Eowyn and Arwen, to Goldberry and Galadriel. Tolkienn expressed deep wisdom, strength and resilience in his women and feminine characters. Hoping Rohirrim is not superficial and commercial in its expression all around, but particularly in the deep female heritage of that Tribe of Tolkienn's world.
Modern Hollywood went political decades ago. Why is it only now when fans and the other side resist that we're told to not be political? How about Hollywood stop pushing their politics first? Tolkien was a conservative Catholic. His works should be respected as such even if it offends progressives. We can't have 1 conservative IP in our culture?
loved this one, matt! Great artwork I hadn't seen before on this channel, especially liked the ones that are somewhat reminiscent of the Arcane artstyle
I think in Tolkien’s fantastical depiction of the ancient world, women were expected to fight for their “home” while men were expected to fight for their “homelands”.
Ye. I think the concept of 'home' is so underappreciated and underestimated while people like to look at the 'bigger picture'. They are all very important. And cases like Galadirel, Haleth and Éowyn to show that it is a matter of division of labor, not a rigid stereotype. Tho I have to admit that historical records (I do feel like the whole Tolkien Legendarium is the history of an existing universe) tend to neglect the home role sometimes.
Can you make a video on the many languages of the Legendarium? Considering Tolkien started everything from creating languagues, it is a very nice topic to cover!
It would be nice to put together a video on whatever we know about Shieldmaidens. The description in War of the Rohirrim is obviously not from lore and did not make sense to me.
Despite not being canon, the videogame Shadow of War had some pretty cool female representation. Without a doubt the best was Idril. Beautiful and vulnerable, but also loyal and strong-willed to defend her home and preserve its history. Even if the "Fires of War" theme is mostly about Talion, I can genuinely imagine Idril singing it
@@dylancage9031 Based on the comment and this video being about warrior women, it sounds like she's depicted as a capable warrior in the film (I haven't seen it yet) and there are people out there who are complaining about it.
Okay.... I like your voices. If only you could record some of JRRT's works without violating copyright. You'd do GREAT!! And... yes... I'd love an upload about the Elven Warriors.
@anni.68 Girdle of Melian is protective magic, defense, not every "warrior" is just offense, she should be mentioned as powerful sorceress, because her protective shield is what's keeping them safe and unapproachable (with few exceptions)
@@anni.68 "Perhaps I will do a separate video on the most valiant elf women-from Galadriel to Luthien..." that's what NODR said. Also Galadriel is not only here because of her downing of Dol-guldur but because of her stationary magic that's protecting Lothlorien and will send a fog or a mist to block Eotheod from view and allowing them the safe passage while riding to battle, which is similar to what Melian do since she(Galadriel)learned it from her
I understand that in the two towers the Professor mentioned that she was wearing chain mail when her uncle and brother rode out to war? I can't remember if this happened after her uncle gave her the sword or not
Celtic Queen Boudicca- led the Iceni tribe in East Anglia in one of the most threatening uprisings against the Romans. She's a British national heroine. (Not a role model- she did barbaric things. More incredible for what she achieved against the Romans) Saxon Lady Æthelflæd of the Mercians- Became a great leader who was loved by subjects and dreaded by enemies. "Caesar himself to win such glory fail'd" Joan of Arc - Led armies, helping save France from the English. French national heroine and a Saint for Catholics and Anglicans. Tolken's heroines remind me of them. These would have also been heroines for Tolkien.
Also there were female warriors in Norse sagas (such as Brunhild) and in Chivalric Romances (such as Bradamante and Marfisa in Orlando Furioso). I think Tolkien was inspired by them as well.
Tolkien's women are bold and strong, for sure. Many of them are my favorite fictional characters. But as you point out, they're rarely marching to war, but it's circumstance and fate that brings them to battle or heroic martial deeds. And that's something that I think is missed in most screen adaptations, where they're reduced to just being warriors (the most egregious of these to me is Jackson leaving off the second half of Eowyn's character arc). Tolkien's female characters have so much strength, power, and wisdom in other ways, but except for Jackson's Galadriel, what we get on screen is pretty much only girlboss warrior women, and I think that does a major disservice to the diversity and strength of the women in Tolkien's world.
Can I add Niniel, she's not warrior in that sense of the word, but she's extremely strong-willed and willing to help her husband (*cough brother) At the end of Children Hurin she has a moment. Even before Turin goes to kill the dragon, she has bad feelings and tries to stop him unsuccessfully. After his gone, she's not willing to stay put and is determined to go after him and meet whatever fate awaits her. From the book: - And she stood forth before the people that were still gathered in the open place of the Ephel, and she cried: 'Men of Brethil! I will not wait here. If my lord fails, then all hope is false. Your land and woods shall be burned utterly, and all your houses laid in ashes, and none, none, shall escape. Therefore why tarry here? Now I go to meet the tidings and whatever doom may send. Let all those of like mind come with me!' Then many where willing to go with her She's also the one brave enough to approach the dragon. And she's pregnant in this scene!
Fantastic analysis! It’s incredibly important to have reminders of the rich history written in the pages of Tolkien’s works that might j spire current stories. Also, I would love a video on Elf women!
In The Two Towers film, the presence of Edoras's women, including Eowyn, at Helm's Deep (obviously, a departure from the book) actually makes it difficult to believe that she wouldn't get to show her mettle in that battle. That kingdom was facing annihilation, and was so desperate that (male) children were being conscripted into the defense. But Eowyn? She's to be sent with the women into the caves, however much she hates it, and however much her uncle should surely know how capable she would be in defending the Hornburg. (And her line "The women of this country learned long ago: Those without swords can still die upon them" suggests that it's not uncommon for Rohirrim women as a whole to know how to defend themselves, so many of those cowering helplessly in the Glittering Caves should have been capable of contributing to the defense).
This is a fantastic video, the images and the narration. I learned so much new lore. I'd heard that Liv Tyler and Peter Jackson got some flack for making Arwen more warrior-like, such as the scene with Frodo and the Nazgul at the Ford. And, is it true they were considering having Arwen lead an army of elves? Anyway, I'd definitely like to know about female elves who were warriors. Thanks!
@@meduseldtales3383 Elrond was a warrior in the First and Second Ages. In the Third Age, Tolkien seems to have removed him from engaging in war (e.g. in initial drafting of the Tale of Years, Elrond goes to out war with Angmar (implied: "Cirdan of Lune and Elrond, with belated help sent by sea from King Eärnil, defeat Angmar", & "Celebrían, wife of Elrond... is taken by Orcs in the passes of the mountains. She is rescued by Elrond and his sons...." PoMe, Tale of Years. Tolkien changes that in revision.) Also, Tolkien further distinguishes between elf-men who are healers, and elf-women, stating that elf-men who are healers "went not to war until the last need." In summary: Elf-men go to war. Elf-women abstain from war (which gives them greater ability in healing). Elf-men who are healers only go off to war at last need. Elf-women still abstain from war (though they will fight in defence if attacked).
@@Tar-Elenion So, if Elrond could do it, why not the elf-women as well? They could go hunting and fight in the wars when they are young, and when they are ready to have kids and settle down, they could switch to healing. Also, isn't it a bit absurd that 50-60% of elven populations would need to focus their life into becoming healers? Why would any society need so many healers??
Wow that's really cool stuff about the Easterlings. We don't know too much about them but what we do know is cool. Really wish we could see them explored in more depth on screen. I thought we'd get that with Rhun in The Rings of Power season 2 but...
I am interested in everything about women in Middle Earth and Valinor. Humans, elves, Valar, dwarfs and even spiders. I love when everything female in Tolkiens work is highlighted. Warrior elves is a great topic. Not a warrior, but a favorite of mine is Nienna. And Feanor's wife, Nerdanel. What is said about her in other books than The Silmarillion? So much to explore...
When it comes to well-crafted female characters, I have a strong appreciation for their portrayal. Too often, critics nitpick aspects of these characters, and it can feel frustrating. I admire how the strong female characters in *The Hobbit* and *The Lord of the Rings* films were portrayed authentically. They were presented as fighters in a medieval setting, and while they are female, their limitations were captured realistically. This approach adds depth to a medieval fantasy world, which I genuinely respect. It makes perfect sense that elves, who live for centuries, would have more female warriors, compared to humans and dwarves with their shorter lifespans. I appreciate that reality and find that these dynamics enhance the story. My main point is that I believe characters should feel genuine and authentic, something that I feel has been lacking in recent portrayals. It often leans toward an anime style, which doesn’t resonate with me as strongly. I advocate for future films and productions to return to the intelligence and depth found in the past and in literary works. Strong female characters should embody more than just the label of "strong"; they should be well-rounded, strong characters overall. True strength isn’t solely defined by physical prowess, and that’s a crucial aspect that often gets overlooked. This is my perspective, and while not everyone may agree, I stand by my views.
I wonder if you do the video on the Elf Women if you'll include Tauriel despite her being a film only character. Probably would just to make an exception for once because people would expect it even if it is just short.
With this video’s focus on the Rohirrim and other horsepeople, it should be mentioned that many real life examples of warrior women were Asiatic horse nomads (in fact, the Greek legends of the Amazons were probably derived from them)
I just have one question for all the people who have a problem with Hera: Who else could've been the main character? We all know about Helm and his sons fates, and Frealaf was camped at a different fortress for most of the siege. She's the only one that is there for the whole thing that we don't know the final fate of. War of the Rohirrim was excellent, and I for one think they nailed Hera.
Funny thing is, by making women warriors, modern writers emphasize that only with traditional men traits that women can get respect, while in reality women have so many respectable traits thst most men dont have, and yet those are shoved aside for, in my reasoning, jealousy and laziness
@@georgepatton93 That's what I have been saying! That's why I love Luthien. She is strong while also being feminine and in love with a man (another thing viewed as a weakness by modern writes).
or many guys that read fantasy really like women so we like to see them kick ass and look hot....it is only recently with incels and ugly girl bosses that dudes started bitching
If it is badly done, sure you're right. Though outside of blockbuster cinema there're quite a few good examples of this, especially in fantasy literature.
Infact, Tolkien didn't want the feminine to be left behind by the masculine, this is why he wrote characters to express the maternal, receptive, and caring roles often associated with the feminine and this is probably why feminists hate tolkien, because he was an actual lover of women, not women pretending to be men.
Just the fact that Tolkien made female Valar alongside male ones, and gave them as much agency and importance tells you all about the fact that Tolkien respected women and did not view them as inferior to men. The whole "Tolkien is closet misogynistic" narrative OR "women can not be warriors in LOTR" is idiotic.
Can't be? wrong, should be? Tolkien would argue that it is not proper for women to pursue the military arts. "'I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun,' she said, 'and behold! the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren." - Eowyn.
@@johnisaacfelipe6357 That's just Eowyn. According to Tolkien Eowyn was never a warrior woman: “[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 244). Same with Elf women: "...indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi [the Elf-women] fought valiantly" (J.R.R. Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring, “Laws & Customs Among the Eldar"). So, Elf women knew how to defend themselves, but that does not make them warriors, they were just fighting if they had no other choice, to protect their lives and the lives of their family and people. True warrior women are an exception in the Legendarium, but....they do exist: the early Valie Measse, than of course Haleth and her warriors and Galadriel.
In light of Tales Of The Shire coming out, could you make a video on the different families that live in maybe Bywater or The Shire, and their history of each family? Thanks
Having women warriors is always a cool concept, it just has to be done properly and with sense. Not forcefully just for the sake of having it. What you can see in the majority of Tolkiens female warriors, is that in those situations it was in dire need. In our own society historically and most likely in Tolkiens world, the role of battle and war was taken upon by men. Not because it was some kind of prejudice against women. But because that’s how a strong functioning society would work. The women weren’t clambering and complaining to go fight. Every had a role to play. Everyone’s purpose was essential. You can clearly see that in Tolkiens cases of female warriors they existed as a sort of rear guard. They were capable and mighty but stayed behind from the main battles and would fight only in the uttermost need. Their main role and need was at home while their men were gone. With Haleth’s female warriors that was most likely because of their few numbers and their needs for fighters. Her own personal guard of female warriors makes perfect sense. Women in high places usually have a female entourage but her case was a need of fighters instead of something like lady’s in waiting. With Theoden asking the people who to lead them while he was away and not going straight to Eowyn by rote is more out of respect for the people themselves. He most definitely would’ve picked Eowyn right off the bat but wanted it to be the peoples choice. What all of this stems from is of course the addition of the made up named character of Hera in WotR. If she was what she is in the movie then Tolkien himself would’ve written her story. But she doesn’t have one because he didn’t write one. He didn’t even name her. So to treat his work as if they could do it better is just disrespectful and ultimately takes away from who the intended main character should’ve been. Helm Hammerhand. Hers wasn’t a bad character but much of her story and deeds did feel very forced. The fact that they felt Tolkien didn’t write strong female characters clearly shows that they need to watch this video. Ultimately it all comes down to making sense within the story and not because some sort of ideal needs to be pushed that is irrelevant to the story itself. One thing I really didn’t like was the discussion that took place within Edoras. Where it’s suggested that the sheildmaiden banner be removed because it’s not needed. Of course it’s needed. It exists because it’s a cultural and necessary part of Rohan’s society. So much so that it existed even until Eowyn’s time. It wasn’t some tool to be discarded when finished with. It was part of Rohirric culture. It goes back to what Faramir said. That they might have lots in common with Gondor but they stick to their ways. In the end they’re are plenty of amazing “powerful female warrior” stories within Tolkien that are really great and there’s no need to rewrite his story’s to fit someone’s fanfiction.
So any other invented male character should by your logic diminish named male character, they can never make a story about Rangers of the North without Aragorn or his family because that's diminishing him/them🙄 Having another female 260 years in the past(by the book ,183 by the movie) can't diminish eowyn, different time, different battle Hera is not forced or Mary sue unless that definition is updated to someone who's competent and nothing more. She's saved or helped throughout the movie in basically every scene. She's nothing like unlovable females from ROP
@ It’s not diminishing the characters by having Hera as the main. I thought they did an excellent job with all the main characters. Haleth, Hamma, and Helm himself. But those characters were all we needed. They could’ve told the story perfectly, it wasn’t for a lack of details to work with. Hera wasn’t an unlikable character, unlike the abominations in RoP. She just felt unnecessary. She wasn’t needed to accomplish the story and Helm himself could’ve sufficed.
@thebrowneyesofmandalore That's your personal opinion, which is fine but you can't say it like it's a fact, I personally enjoyed having her in the story and through her eyes, my complaint would be that I needed more of the story between the siblings, because you can feel love and loyalty and devotion but I would like few more flashbacks to childhood to establish that
@ Yes fair point. It’s definitely my personal opinion. I wasn’t trying to lay it as fact. I agree. I really would’ve liked more scenes between the siblings. I really would’ve liked to feel their connections more. Same with Frealauf. Those moments when Haleth and Hamma died hit hard. Even though the first half (imo) was really strong, I still would’ve liked more dynamic in the beginning with the siblings.
Regarding warrior women, it seems there just weren't many with those few being noteworthy like other ancient and early medieval women such as Boudicca and Artemesia. Tolkien is pretty historically accurate in this regard.
Tolkien: writes women who are both strong and feminine, with a few exceptions. Modern writes: Anyway, here are a bunch of wanna be Eowyns, but with non of the charm or depth.
Let's get some things out of the way before I make my point: 1) LOTR is a work of fiction, so if Tolkien wanted to make a warrior baby slaying orc's, there would be that. 2) Women aren't helpless and can fight in such a way as to contribute to the protection of their community. Now.....I think we're conflating some things. 1st....many of the examples you use can be understood as politically fearless, a political leader, etc. There have been many Queens in our own history that have "led" mighty nations to war, none of then with sword in hand or unearthed in some ancient battle field. So when people "follow" some "strong" female leader here and there, it shouldn't be assumed that she led the charge sword in hand and fought like the men. 2nd....it's well understood that while women can contribute to warfare, even with a sword in hand, this is less than ideal. In modern armies, a woman can point a gun and pull a trigger just as much as a man can (general female/male psychology and suitability for war environments aside). However, in the ancient world (a facsimile of which is how the LOTR is set in) physical strength is of even higher importance in battle. Of course a grown warrior could be slain by a child wielding a sword as luck and circumstances have a part to play in battle, but physics also tells us that if a 190lb muscular man swings a sword at a 110lb female, she's going to have a tough time parrying that. Also, let's not forget that men, generally speaking, are biologically expendable. A village of women warriors fighting and dying in battle would soon go extinct. 3 men surviving warfare can repopulate a village of healthy child bearing women. 3) Even amongst the elven women and such, they might isn't depicted in hand to hand combat, but rather through supernatural means. The walls thrown down by Galadriel or Melian weren't toppled because they punched them, but rather by their intrinsic magical might. I think this is the correct way to interrupt Tolkien's "warrior women". He didn't make them interchangeable with men, he honored them for some of their shared strengths (psychological/political), but also kept them as distinctly female.
Theres a reason why Women are pedestalled in times of great recedes, its because a man cannot bare a child, hence men are not really needed in abundance, one man can impregnate multiple women, so you have more "expendability" on men, women however can give birth to the new generation as well as nurturing them. Women must also be kept safe as they dont lay eggs, they must shoulder the responsibility of nursing it internally as well as externally, which making a pregnant women go on adventure and fight wars is the most ridiculous idea i ever heard, I'm talking about you "The Last Of Us 2". Even in modern war, you rarely see female in combat, you dont see female in Seals or Ranger due to physical prowess, most female are logistic or base camp, away from the front, the notion that you can point, aim, and shoot is simple yes, but you have to take in psychological aspect of war, even the bravest of man can break under extreme conditions, a mine detonating wiping out your forward element in a flash of an eye, a machine gun whipping bullets past your head constantly, or a well placed HE/HEAT shell impacting the wall next to you. (Theres a reason why they said females are mor emotional compared to men) The funny thing is women were usually a prized amongst the kingdom of man, and their importance for a growing nation is more important, because without population growth, who would have enough manpower to fight back. (THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WERE TREATED BETTER, They just have more value, does not mean the expectation of life was better off in both female or male. This relies heavily on events, historical date, and cultural views, there might be a nation that treated women better like greece and rome, or they were treated like peasants during the medieval conquest.) In a formal way of seeing it bluntly, to a king, a man killed in battle is nothing more then a loss of 1 soldier, a loss of a women is a loss of generations of manpower. (Hence you are highly never going to see a female conscription.)
Well... yes and no. “[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 244) and "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi [the Elf-women] fought valiantly" (J.R.R. Tolkien. “Laws & Customs Among the Eldar". Morgoth's Ring). But... there are a few exceptions: The early Valie Measse, Haleth (and many women of the people of Haleth) and Galadriel are clearly described as warrior women.
I was so scared to watch this. Because alot of "fans" dont know the lore or just see a woman and think mary sue. But this.. Yes!! You sir did a great deed today
It's a pity Jackson did not portray to the letter Eowyn's role. Sort of like the sad liberties he took with Aragorn re: drive to claim his birthright and win the hand of his beloved Arwen.
Thank you for being so positive in your reviews and videos, it’s really helpful when looking at someone’s perspective of a show or movie, and I have been waiting for your Rohirrm video to get an opinion that actually has constructive criticism and feedback. Thank you, May Illuvitar Bless you
"One of the *strange* practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women." Who was the practice *strange* to? Eowyn: "Though not a ‘dry nurse’ in temper, she was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." Letter 244 "Éowyn says that women must ride now, as they did in a like evil time in the days of Brego son of [mark showing name omitted] Eorl’s son, when the wild men of the East came from the Inland Sea into the Eastemnet." HoMe VIII, Part 3, II, ii The Muster of Rohan
That practice was strange to Eldar and other Edain of Beleriand, as far as I understand, who did not have a custom of "many female warriors" (despite some of their females might fight in case of great need or hunt for pleasure).
@@Tar-Elenion There were some cases of Elven women fighting, such as Galadriel fighting alongside Teleri in Alqua Londe or Idril fighting during the fall of Gondolin (in some sources). But those cases were not customary, as far as I understand.
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ Tolkien noted that while elf-women abstain from war, they will fight in desperate defence. Like Galadriel at Alqualonde (in some late variants) or Idril at Gondolin (in some variants).
Cue all the anti woke comments. The only people benefiting from poorly written or shoehorned female characters are the companies getting money and the trolls who get more ammunition to hate on anything remotely inclusive. Anyway, this shouldn’t be complicated. Just write good characters that happen to be women, and if there isn’t a surplus in the work your adapting then WRITE SOMETHING ORIGINAL. Hollywood is all about franchises now, because they just want a guarantee something will make money. The only way anything original gets made is if the director is a huge name like Nolan. Anyways rant over. Tbh I never cared about the lack of a lot of women in the LOTR because A) I understand the time period and B)I don’t need all media to depict people who are like me. I relate to and admire characters like Aragorn just as much, because I happen to think being a human being is a stringer unifier than the division of what you have in your pants.
The only problem I have with this movie is , you hear the makers of the show say stuff like “there isn’t alot of strong female characters in Tolkien” they either haven’t read the books or are being disingenuous on purpose, I don’t have a problem with female characters being the star I just don’t want them to change Tolkien’s lore to fit “modern audiences” if you want a female lead I’m all for it but there are plenty to choose from in the lore, Luthien, Eowyn, Arwen just to name a few,
I don't get this purism litmus test. Are you arguing Tolkien was infallible, his lore beyond reproach, his words and ideas sacrosanct? He was just a man writing fiction. Heck, even he retconned his own works in later publications. Call it Tolkien inspired and call it a day.
Arwen is not a particularly strong female character in the books. She's an object to be won by Aragorn with little agency of her own. She's very different from Luthien or Eowyn. Eowyn's story has been told as part of the greater LOTR tale. Is there really a worthwhile story to be told about her childhood or her marriage to Faramir? Luthien's tale is tied up within the greater Silmarillion, to which no one has the rights to adapt. So if you want to tell a Middle Earth story with a female protagonist, what's the problem with inserting one into a preexisting story. Certainly, this can be done poorly, but that is not the case in War of the Rohirrim.
@@jtwil2191 And I think it really fits (this shouldn't be a spoiler since everyone knows the tale). Helm and his sons died before the war ended, and Frealaf spent the whole winter away. If you watch the movie without prejudice, you will like it and notice that she is mostly a medium to tell the tale of Helm and what happened after.
@@jtwil2191 as I said before I don’t have a problem with a female character, but since Tolkien has passed I think it’s disrespectful to change his work to fit today’s audiences
List's interesting enough that the likes of Galadriel and Luthien had to be removed in a manner similar to how Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, Space Dandy, and Carole & Tuesday are sometimes disqualified from superlative English dubs because *they're that good,* hehe. Interesting that Haleth's people's women soldiers never fought much in foreign wars, unlike the Greek mythology Amazons who've been quite notable in conflicts like the Trojan War (which also had Ethiopians and maybe even Indians; make of that what you will). 6:06: One can assume Tolkien read enough about the Resistance groups of WW2 (like Tito's Yugoslav movement), and also some notably costly failures (the Warsaw Uprising being one). 6:46: I assume these boys, old men, and women were most likely combat stave/spear wielders plus cavalry archers, akin to how medieval Japanese militia and women are skilled with horseriding, naginatas with emergency wakizashi shortswords, and sporting archery. Again, though not a woman of the spotlight, gotta love Hama in The Two Towers book. Really wish he survived Helm's Deep. One can easily wonder how many unsung women warrior heroines in all of Middle-earth history played the "Sweet Polly Oliver" routine made manifest by good old Eowyn. 13:40: Oh, please do.
“The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them.”
Well, if you are going to die on a sword at least go down fighting.
That's a Peter Jackson film quote, not Tolkien.
@@estherhoward7959 That credit should go to Fran Walsh, principle writer of the films, not Peter.
@@_creighton regardless, it's not Tolkien and I wish people would stop quoting it as Tolkien!
@@itsatrap1017 stop misquoting and saying that that quote is Tolkien, it's not!
Multiple thoughts:
1. Apparently the fact that most of the riders of Rohan being played as women with beards glued on for the movies isn't too far off.
2. Really need a call out for Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. Her umbrella is more frightening than any sword.
Well this was due to the fact that it was hard to find enough professional rides locally in Aotearoa NZ, that were men, so that’s what they went with. Also there are more women riding in general than men, tho historically only soldiers and warriors rode on horseback.
2. Fr 💀🤣
Outstanding work. The tale of Haleth's people, like many tales of the First Age, is too often overlooked and is deserved of more praise. Thanks for this thoughtful recognition of the women of Tolkien's works.
Yes I'm interested in elf woman warriors
I am also interested in them.
Elf-women abstain from war:
"For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the _nissi_ in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly..."
HoMe X, Laws and Customs among the Eldar
The folk of Haleth had a strange practice:
"One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
UT, The Druedain
That custom, it was "strange to the Eldar and the other Atani".
I am as well
yes yes
Yes, I think you owe us this video, now you've mentioned it
Tolkien female characters and Studio Ghibli female characters are great examples of how to write authentically strong women.
Awwww. Best anime come from Studio Ghibli. Both influence me throughout childhood and adulthood.
@@aresgalamatis7022found the garbage human
Hollywood never understood this sentences you wrote.
They are too busy of political correctness.
@aresgalamatis7022 I mean they are good examples. Why you gotta put him down for making a good observation?
@@aresgalamatis7022he didn't say they are the best examples. Just great ones. Idk they aren't necessarily the best examples but they are generally good.
yes, definitely interested in the elf warrior women video
Your channel is a breath of fresh air in this age if clickbait. Your review of LOTR War of the Rohirrim made me go out and watched it today and its cool to see them dive into niche lore of Rohan's history.
Ngl, I really loved Eowyn's portrayal in the 1983 animated adaptation of "Return of the King". She was incredibly gorgeous and fierce there. I wouldn't be surprised if Peter Jackson and/or Miranda Otto took inspiration from such version of the character
I really miss the old anime inspired American animation style where they colored in the eye-shadow and lipstick on characters without any defining drawn border for the color. Did the same thing in TMNM and G.I. Joe if I remember. And if I'm not incorrect, the same style was used for the "stretching drool" seen on the orcs in the animation.
Where there's a whip, there's a way!
Eowyn is highly praised for her deeds on the fields of Pelennor as is right. The price to do them was also great and worth to remember. She forsook her place as de facto queen leaving her people effectively leaderless in time of war. Her appointed task was a thankless one and others acknowledged that fact.
In order to ride with the king on the field she also disobeys orders at least to some decree. Her seeming death drove Eomer into near suicide charge of his own.
Her motives to do what she did are understandable and relatable but it is good to remember that similar deeds have also led to disaster. Price Faramir riding in secret into a battle comes to mind. Deed that in part led to end of king Ondohers line in Gondor.
I liked the subject of the video, but felt that this is good place to raise the point above.
Correction: Story of Kullervo will not be covered among Norse stories at all, as it is Finnish.
Thank you for this video! I love Tolkien's stories, and while I feel women are underrepresented in them (though good for the time in which they were written), the ones that are there are great characters.
This was a Wonderful Video! So True! I loved that you stick to Tolkien on all this! Very wonderfully put together video Matt! I enjoyed it!
Brilliant! I was a bit confused by the whole Sheild Maiden thing in WOTR but I still loved it. I'm happy to know that there were some examples of brave mortal women who fought too. It reminds me of what Eowyn says to Aragon, "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them." I'm also really interested in the suggested video you could also make about the other women. As a women, I really love how Tolkien respected women so much that they were more than simply political alliances, mothers and wives. They're really shown to be their own people. This especially at a time in the world that women were just seen and not heard
Thank you for another amazing video! I can't wait to hear your spoiler review of War of the Rohirrim. I loved the movie 😊❤
One of the things I really appreciate about Tolkien's world is that men and women seem to be equal and there's no mystery to it being so. The stories feature great heroines from different species and cultures and not only are they fierce and powerful, but they also have love and compassion🗡️💪 🙌❤️
"Equal" in what? Worth? Tolkien's fictional societies were all patriarchal (organic). Tolkien hated Feminism. He was a Christian.
@@RadRat78Christianity is not anti-feminist nor has it ever been. He clearly respected the women in his life the way he wrote them in his stories.
@@godzillamaster34 Sorry, but you are low-information about Feminism (a creation of Communist men).
From the inception of modern "Feminism" in the mid-1960s their loud and oft-repeated stated goal was *to abolish the family.*
It is so obviously anti-father and anti-children and anti-marriage (and anti natural law) that I'm actually uncertain if you are joking (?).
Feminism is the exact inverse of traditional values, of Christian value lol.
Just Google right now something like "Feminism must dismantle the family." You're welcome! Open your eyes.
They have fooled mothers to end 85 million of their own offspring for "convenience" and a "career." Women file for 80% of all divorce (always listing No Fault). Women today have a dozen or more sexual partners before they marry. Hardly virtuous.
This is why Tolkien fans (his genuine fans) gatekeep his works. Make all the dumb feminist and goofy girl-boss movies you want; we don't care and don't watch them. We keep that garbage far away from our daughters.
You seem to equate "feminism" with womanhood (lol). Feminism is a pernicious and inorganic far-Leftwing ideology.
In Tolkien's own words:
According to Tolkien, even the most intelligent women are enslaved by their instincts, prone to lose interest in a subject when their feelings limit their comprehension. He expands on the idea that women are dominated by their emotions in their desire for motherhood, saying, “Before the young woman knows where she is . . . she may actually ‘fall in love.’ Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man’s children” (49-50). He continues in this vein, claiming that women are inevitably driven by their desire for both motherhood and romance: “A young woman, even one ‘economically independent,’ as they say now . . . begins to think of the ‘bottom drawer’ and dream of a home,
almost at once. If she really falls in love, the shipwreck may really end on the rocks,” whereas her male romantic partner “has a life-work, a career . . . all of which could (and do where he has any guts) survive the shipwreck of ‘love’” (50). Thus, according to Tolkien, women are more impulsive, emotional, and fragile than men. In Tolkien’s mind, the only thing worse than an
“unspoiled natural young woman” operating on emotion is a woman who disregards societal expectations entirely. As he puts it, such disregard makes women “wanton” and “so depraved as to enjoy ‘conquests’” as men do (50). Tolkien’s specific sexist expectations for female behavior
led him to believe that when women shun maternal desire and embrace typically male roles, they become depraved.
@godzillamaster34 i mean depends on the flavor. Pauls forged writings are all about misogyny.
@@RadRat78D*mn you’re wrong about bout the bs claims you made.
One of the interesting things is that despite the number of people who complain about the shortage of female characters in Tolkien (which makes no sense when you consider what he was trying to write and the time during which he lived), his female characters are among the best I have ever read. If the decision had been purely mine, my daughter's name would have been taken from Tolkien.
@@aresgalamatis7022 Well her voice breaking in that singing is part of the actress acting to portray Arwen being mournful to her family member but still carried on doing the traditional singing in the funeral to honor the Rohan dead. But I get how you feel. I felt a bit of cringe when I was little watching that scene, but when I got older, I understood what that meant.
@@aresgalamatis7022Do you mean Éowyn's singing at her cousin's funeral? I don't remember Arwen singing.
@@commando414 You're thinking of Eowyn
@@kramhorse Oops! My bad.
Nobody:
Faramir: hello there
Faramir: may i show you my quality?
Not only did Eowin kill the chief of the Nazgul. She made it doubt. Made it afraid before it died. Absolute legend.
What people tend to forget is that without Merry stabbing with the blade of Westernesse given to him by Tom Bombadil, Eowyn would not have been able to kill the Witch King. It was that blade that broke the “magic” that made him him unkillable.
@@paulmartyn3388 Yes, but both of them needed to be there, to deal with the Witch-king and his fell beast.
@@paulmartyn3388 I believe that the tale of someone being able to kill the Witch King was written by a great Elf who had himself defeated a evil foe.
I'm very interested in hearing you cover Tolkien's seeming infatuation with and influence by Norse mythology, especially concerning the Warriors of Rohan!
From Eowyn and Arwen, to Goldberry and Galadriel. Tolkienn expressed deep wisdom, strength and resilience in his women and feminine characters. Hoping Rohirrim is not superficial and commercial in its expression all around, but particularly in the deep female heritage of that Tribe of Tolkienn's world.
Thank you. Lets not get political over this. Let's just look over the books and lore. I love your videos and approach on these.
Modern Hollywood went political decades ago. Why is it only now when fans and the other side resist that we're told to not be political? How about Hollywood stop pushing their politics first? Tolkien was a conservative Catholic. His works should be respected as such even if it offends progressives. We can't have 1 conservative IP in our culture?
I would like to see a video about the brave Elf Heroines
Would be great to see a video about the female villains in Tolkien's legendarium: Ungoliant, Thuringwethil, Fluithuin, Shelob, Beruthiel
Fluithuin??? Fluithuin... FluIthuin?!? Fluithuin..... Fluithuin? (10 points to anyone who gets this)
Gothmog the Balrog's mammy
loved this one, matt! Great artwork I hadn't seen before on this channel, especially liked the ones that are somewhat reminiscent of the Arcane artstyle
This was a perfect topic for right now-thank you, Matt! (And I would love to watch a video on powerful elf women as well!)
Your voice acting is getting top notch, Matt!!
I think in Tolkien’s fantastical depiction of the ancient world, women were expected to fight for their “home” while men were expected to fight for their “homelands”.
And you would be completely incorrect.
@@RadRat78 How would he be so?
@@Vikingr4Jesus5919 Galadriel, Luthien, etc. Fought for things bigger than just "home".
Ye. I think the concept of 'home' is so underappreciated and underestimated while people like to look at the 'bigger picture'. They are all very important. And cases like Galadirel, Haleth and Éowyn to show that it is a matter of division of labor, not a rigid stereotype. Tho I have to admit that historical records (I do feel like the whole Tolkien Legendarium is the history of an existing universe) tend to neglect the home role sometimes.
Tolkien view women in an organic way (as mothers and wives). He despised Feminism
Can you make a video on the many languages of the Legendarium? Considering Tolkien started everything from creating languagues, it is a very nice topic to cover!
I really enjoyed this and other videos on Nerd of the Rings. I would love an elf woman warrior video
It would be nice to put together a video on whatever we know about Shieldmaidens. The description in War of the Rohirrim is obviously not from lore and did not make sense to me.
Great storytelling!
this was great and I’m interested in any other videos you do regarding warrior women.
Despite not being canon, the videogame Shadow of War had some pretty cool female representation. Without a doubt the best was Idril. Beautiful and vulnerable, but also loyal and strong-willed to defend her home and preserve its history. Even if the "Fires of War" theme is mostly about Talion, I can genuinely imagine Idril singing it
I need the part 2 Elven warriors so bad, I am so serious
The most eloquent "So shut up about Hera already!" Ive heard yet!
Who? Was she mentioned in the video?
@@dylancage9031 Based on the comment and this video being about warrior women, it sounds like she's depicted as a capable warrior in the film (I haven't seen it yet) and there are people out there who are complaining about it.
@@dylancage9031 No, she is the female protagonist of the new War of the Rohirrim film. Shockingly some people have had an issue with a female lead.
@@TheScreamMan
A very bad female lead.
@@Ratface0007 Yes i would be a terrible female lead.
Great video. :) I'd love to see one on the Elven women!
Okay.... I like your voices. If only you could record some of JRRT's works without violating copyright. You'd do GREAT!!
And... yes... I'd love an upload about the Elven Warriors.
Oh Hell yea !!!
would love one on Immoral warrior woman
Plz dont forget Melian, The 4th most powerful of all the Maiar
Hmmm....🤔Melian defeated Ungoliant, but she was not a warrior.
@anni.68 Girdle of Melian is protective magic, defense, not every "warrior" is just offense, she should be mentioned as powerful sorceress, because her protective shield is what's keeping them safe and unapproachable (with few exceptions)
@@milenachershkov9980 Yes, from a human point of view she was a powerful sorceress, just like Gandalf was a "wizard". But she was not a warrior :)
@@anni.68 "Perhaps I will do a separate video on the most valiant elf women-from Galadriel to Luthien..." that's what NODR said.
Also Galadriel is not only here because of her downing of Dol-guldur but because of her stationary magic that's protecting Lothlorien and will send a fog or a mist to block Eotheod from view and allowing them the safe passage while riding to battle, which is similar to what Melian do since she(Galadriel)learned it from her
@milenachershkov9980 I still have to watch Matt's video. My answer was just to michealbattin.
I understand that in the two towers the Professor mentioned that she was wearing chain mail when her uncle and brother rode out to war?
I can't remember if this happened after her uncle gave her the sword or not
Going forward, if you ever say “let me know if you want to see a video on *topic*”, just assume the answer always to be yes!
Celtic Queen Boudicca- led the Iceni tribe in East Anglia in one of the most threatening uprisings against the Romans. She's a British national heroine. (Not a role model- she did barbaric things. More incredible for what she achieved against the Romans)
Saxon Lady Æthelflæd of the Mercians- Became a great leader who was loved by subjects and dreaded by enemies. "Caesar himself to win such glory fail'd"
Joan of Arc - Led armies, helping save France from the English. French national heroine and a Saint for Catholics and Anglicans.
Tolken's heroines remind me of them. These would have also been heroines for Tolkien.
Also there were female warriors in Norse sagas (such as Brunhild) and in Chivalric Romances (such as Bradamante and Marfisa in Orlando Furioso). I think Tolkien was inspired by them as well.
Tolkien's women are bold and strong, for sure. Many of them are my favorite fictional characters. But as you point out, they're rarely marching to war, but it's circumstance and fate that brings them to battle or heroic martial deeds. And that's something that I think is missed in most screen adaptations, where they're reduced to just being warriors (the most egregious of these to me is Jackson leaving off the second half of Eowyn's character arc). Tolkien's female characters have so much strength, power, and wisdom in other ways, but except for Jackson's Galadriel, what we get on screen is pretty much only girlboss warrior women, and I think that does a major disservice to the diversity and strength of the women in Tolkien's world.
That is the most insane gross take
Can I add Niniel, she's not warrior in that sense of the word, but she's extremely strong-willed and willing to help her husband (*cough brother)
At the end of Children Hurin she has a moment. Even before Turin goes to kill the dragon, she has bad feelings and tries to stop him unsuccessfully. After his gone, she's not willing to stay put and is determined to go after him and meet whatever fate awaits her.
From the book:
- And she stood forth before the people that were still gathered in the open place of the Ephel, and she cried: 'Men of Brethil! I will not wait here. If my lord fails, then all hope is false. Your land and woods shall be burned utterly, and all your houses laid in ashes, and none, none, shall escape. Therefore why tarry here? Now I go to meet the tidings and whatever doom may send. Let all those of like mind come with me!'
Then many where willing to go with her
She's also the one brave enough to approach the dragon.
And she's pregnant in this scene!
Loved this video
Give us the elf warrior women plz!
Fantastic analysis! It’s incredibly important to have reminders of the rich history written in the pages of Tolkien’s works that might j spire current stories. Also, I would love a video on Elf women!
Middle Earth never ceases to amaze me. Especially the strong women.
In The Two Towers film, the presence of Edoras's women, including Eowyn, at Helm's Deep (obviously, a departure from the book) actually makes it difficult to believe that she wouldn't get to show her mettle in that battle. That kingdom was facing annihilation, and was so desperate that (male) children were being conscripted into the defense. But Eowyn? She's to be sent with the women into the caves, however much she hates it, and however much her uncle should surely know how capable she would be in defending the Hornburg. (And her line "The women of this country learned long ago: Those without swords can still die upon them" suggests that it's not uncommon for Rohirrim women as a whole to know how to defend themselves, so many of those cowering helplessly in the Glittering Caves should have been capable of contributing to the defense).
If you decide to at some point cover the Norse myths as they relate to and inspired LotR that would be AMAZING!
This is a fantastic video, the images and the narration. I learned so much new lore. I'd heard that Liv Tyler and Peter Jackson got some flack for making Arwen more warrior-like, such as the scene with Frodo and the Nazgul at the Ford. And, is it true they were considering having Arwen lead an army of elves? Anyway, I'd definitely like to know about female elves who were warriors. Thanks!
_>"Anyway, I'd definitely like to know about female elves who were warriors."
@@Tar-Elenion And yet Elrond was both warrior and a great healer.
@@Tar-Elenion 🌟
@@meduseldtales3383 Elrond was a warrior in the First and Second Ages.
In the Third Age, Tolkien seems to have removed him from engaging in war (e.g. in initial drafting of the Tale of Years, Elrond goes to out war with Angmar (implied: "Cirdan of Lune and Elrond, with belated help sent by sea from King Eärnil, defeat Angmar", & "Celebrían, wife of Elrond... is taken by Orcs in the passes of the mountains. She is rescued by Elrond and his sons...." PoMe, Tale of Years. Tolkien changes that in revision.)
Also, Tolkien further distinguishes between elf-men who are healers, and elf-women, stating that elf-men who are healers "went not to war until the last need."
In summary:
Elf-men go to war.
Elf-women abstain from war (which gives them greater ability in healing).
Elf-men who are healers only go off to war at last need.
Elf-women still abstain from war (though they will fight in defence if attacked).
@@Tar-Elenion So, if Elrond could do it, why not the elf-women as well? They could go hunting and fight in the wars when they are young, and when they are ready to have kids and settle down, they could switch to healing. Also, isn't it a bit absurd that 50-60% of elven populations would need to focus their life into becoming healers? Why would any society need so many healers??
"A cry went up into the shuddering air" is one of my favorite passages from LotR.
Hullo Matt. Many thks for your great job on this video.
Always nice.
Cheers❤
Wow that's really cool stuff about the Easterlings. We don't know too much about them but what we do know is cool. Really wish we could see them explored in more depth on screen. I thought we'd get that with Rhun in The Rings of Power season 2 but...
I am interested in everything about women in Middle Earth and Valinor. Humans, elves, Valar, dwarfs and even spiders. I love when everything female in Tolkiens work is highlighted.
Warrior elves is a great topic.
Not a warrior, but a favorite of mine is Nienna. And Feanor's wife, Nerdanel. What is said about her in other books than The Silmarillion? So much to explore...
I'd like some "certain Elven huntresses" please
Hell yes to the female elven warriors video.
Please do a segment on the other Tolkien women warriors.
Movie was great.
I'd like to see a video on elf woman warriors.
When it comes to well-crafted female characters, I have a strong appreciation for their portrayal. Too often, critics nitpick aspects of these characters, and it can feel frustrating. I admire how the strong female characters in *The Hobbit* and *The Lord of the Rings* films were portrayed authentically. They were presented as fighters in a medieval setting, and while they are female, their limitations were captured realistically. This approach adds depth to a medieval fantasy world, which I genuinely respect.
It makes perfect sense that elves, who live for centuries, would have more female warriors, compared to humans and dwarves with their shorter lifespans. I appreciate that reality and find that these dynamics enhance the story. My main point is that I believe characters should feel genuine and authentic, something that I feel has been lacking in recent portrayals. It often leans toward an anime style, which doesn’t resonate with me as strongly.
I advocate for future films and productions to return to the intelligence and depth found in the past and in literary works. Strong female characters should embody more than just the label of "strong"; they should be well-rounded, strong characters overall. True strength isn’t solely defined by physical prowess, and that’s a crucial aspect that often gets overlooked. This is my perspective, and while not everyone may agree, I stand by my views.
The Warrior Women of Tolkien's works make them a far better read. Bring on the Elf Warrior Women.
I wonder if you do the video on the Elf Women if you'll include Tauriel despite her being a film only character. Probably would just to make an exception for once because people would expect it even if it is just short.
With this video’s focus on the Rohirrim and other horsepeople, it should be mentioned that many real life examples of warrior women were Asiatic horse nomads (in fact, the Greek legends of the Amazons were probably derived from them)
I just have one question for all the people who have a problem with Hera: Who else could've been the main character? We all know about Helm and his sons fates, and Frealaf was camped at a different fortress for most of the siege. She's the only one that is there for the whole thing that we don't know the final fate of. War of the Rohirrim was excellent, and I for one think they nailed Hera.
these vids just keep reminding im so behind in my Tolkien readings lol
Definitely would love to see a video about the warrior women of the elves.
Memo to art department: women need the same hair, head and face protection just like men
Funny thing is, by making women warriors, modern writers emphasize that only with traditional men traits that women can get respect, while in reality women have so many respectable traits thst most men dont have, and yet those are shoved aside for, in my reasoning, jealousy and laziness
@@georgepatton93 That's what I have been saying! That's why I love Luthien. She is strong while also being feminine and in love with a man (another thing viewed as a weakness by modern writes).
or many guys that read fantasy really like women so we like to see them kick ass and look hot....it is only recently with incels and ugly girl bosses that dudes started bitching
Well, when it comes to “proving” themselves, often times women DON’T get approval or acceptance unless they’re doing traditionally “male” things.
If it is badly done, sure you're right. Though outside of blockbuster cinema there're quite a few good examples of this, especially in fantasy literature.
Infact, Tolkien didn't want the feminine to be left behind by the masculine, this is why he wrote characters to express the maternal, receptive, and caring roles often associated with the feminine and this is probably why feminists hate tolkien, because he was an actual lover of women, not women pretending to be men.
Just the fact that Tolkien made female Valar alongside male ones, and gave them as much agency and importance tells you all about the fact that Tolkien respected women and did not view them as inferior to men. The whole "Tolkien is closet misogynistic" narrative OR "women can not be warriors in LOTR" is idiotic.
Can't be? wrong, should be? Tolkien would argue that it is not proper for women to pursue the military arts.
"'I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun,' she said, 'and behold! the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren." - Eowyn.
@@johnisaacfelipe6357 That's just Eowyn. According to Tolkien Eowyn was never a warrior woman: “[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 244).
Same with Elf women: "...indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi [the Elf-women] fought valiantly" (J.R.R. Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring, “Laws & Customs Among the Eldar"). So, Elf women knew how to defend themselves, but that does not make them warriors, they were just fighting if they had no other choice, to protect their lives and the lives of their family and people.
True warrior women are an exception in the Legendarium, but....they do exist: the early Valie Measse, than of course Haleth and her warriors and Galadriel.
In light of Tales Of The Shire coming out, could you make a video on the different families that live in maybe Bywater or The Shire, and their history of each family? Thanks
Yep I want the elf video too as well
Yes I am pretty much interested in all kinds of women warriors. That's a subject I find missing focus in Tolkien's works so I'd like to learn more.
Definitely want to hear about the valor of elven women.
Big thumbs up for video on valiant elvish women!
I’m interested in a video on that
Having women warriors is always a cool concept, it just has to be done properly and with sense. Not forcefully just for the sake of having it. What you can see in the majority of Tolkiens female warriors, is that in those situations it was in dire need. In our own society historically and most likely in Tolkiens world, the role of battle and war was taken upon by men. Not because it was some kind of prejudice against women. But because that’s how a strong functioning society would work. The women weren’t clambering and complaining to go fight. Every had a role to play. Everyone’s purpose was essential. You can clearly see that in Tolkiens cases of female warriors they existed as a sort of rear guard. They were capable and mighty but stayed behind from the main battles and would fight only in the uttermost need. Their main role and need was at home while their men were gone. With Haleth’s female warriors that was most likely because of their few numbers and their needs for fighters. Her own personal guard of female warriors makes perfect sense. Women in high places usually have a female entourage but her case was a need of fighters instead of something like lady’s in waiting.
With Theoden asking the people who to lead them while he was away and not going straight to Eowyn by rote is more out of respect for the people themselves. He most definitely would’ve picked Eowyn right off the bat but wanted it to be the peoples choice.
What all of this stems from is of course the addition of the made up named character of Hera in WotR. If she was what she is in the movie then Tolkien himself would’ve written her story. But she doesn’t have one because he didn’t write one. He didn’t even name her. So to treat his work as if they could do it better is just disrespectful and ultimately takes away from who the intended main character should’ve been. Helm Hammerhand. Hers wasn’t a bad character but much of her story and deeds did feel very forced. The fact that they felt Tolkien didn’t write strong female characters clearly shows that they need to watch this video. Ultimately it all comes down to making sense within the story and not because some sort of ideal needs to be pushed that is irrelevant to the story itself.
One thing I really didn’t like was the discussion that took place within Edoras. Where it’s suggested that the sheildmaiden banner be removed because it’s not needed. Of course it’s needed. It exists because it’s a cultural and necessary part of Rohan’s society. So much so that it existed even until Eowyn’s time. It wasn’t some tool to be discarded when finished with. It was part of Rohirric culture. It goes back to what Faramir said. That they might have lots in common with Gondor but they stick to their ways.
In the end they’re are plenty of amazing “powerful female warrior” stories within Tolkien that are really great and there’s no need to rewrite his story’s to fit someone’s fanfiction.
So any other invented male character should by your logic diminish named male character, they can never make a story about Rangers of the North without Aragorn or his family because that's diminishing him/them🙄
Having another female 260 years in the past(by the book ,183 by the movie) can't diminish eowyn, different time, different battle
Hera is not forced or Mary sue unless that definition is updated to someone who's competent and nothing more. She's saved or helped throughout the movie in basically every scene. She's nothing like unlovable females from ROP
@ It’s not diminishing the characters by having Hera as the main. I thought they did an excellent job with all the main characters. Haleth, Hamma, and Helm himself. But those characters were all we needed. They could’ve told the story perfectly, it wasn’t for a lack of details to work with. Hera wasn’t an unlikable character, unlike the abominations in RoP. She just felt unnecessary. She wasn’t needed to accomplish the story and Helm himself could’ve sufficed.
@thebrowneyesofmandalore That's your personal opinion, which is fine but you can't say it like it's a fact, I personally enjoyed having her in the story and through her eyes, my complaint would be that I needed more of the story between the siblings, because you can feel love and loyalty and devotion but I would like few more flashbacks to childhood to establish that
@ Yes fair point. It’s definitely my personal opinion. I wasn’t trying to lay it as fact.
I agree. I really would’ve liked more scenes between the siblings. I really would’ve liked to feel their connections more. Same with Frealauf. Those moments when Haleth and Hamma died hit hard. Even though the first half (imo) was really strong, I still would’ve liked more dynamic in the beginning with the siblings.
@thebrowneyesofmandalore maybe they'll do extended edition 🙃
Good video. it would be well followed with another you've suggested.
Regarding warrior women, it seems there just weren't many with those few being noteworthy like other ancient and early medieval women such as Boudicca and Artemesia. Tolkien is pretty historically accurate in this regard.
Which means they can exist without a valid backlash. And plenty of ppl fight without being warriors just look at the hobbits.
@@kramhorse I only recall Bywater; No other Middle Earth battles involved Hobbits.
Hera is a amazing character that wasn't in the story and now we know the truth of Rohan's past
An elf female warrior video ? oh yeah i will watch that lol 🔥🥵 100% (im serious sounds awesome)
Tolkien: writes women who are both strong and feminine, with a few exceptions.
Modern writes: Anyway, here are a bunch of wanna be Eowyns, but with non of the charm or depth.
Art vs imitation
Plus these modern characters also usually demean others and act condescending as though its a good thing
Let's get some things out of the way before I make my point: 1) LOTR is a work of fiction, so if Tolkien wanted to make a warrior baby slaying orc's, there would be that. 2) Women aren't helpless and can fight in such a way as to contribute to the protection of their community.
Now.....I think we're conflating some things. 1st....many of the examples you use can be understood as politically fearless, a political leader, etc. There have been many Queens in our own history that have "led" mighty nations to war, none of then with sword in hand or unearthed in some ancient battle field. So when people "follow" some "strong" female leader here and there, it shouldn't be assumed that she led the charge sword in hand and fought like the men. 2nd....it's well understood that while women can contribute to warfare, even with a sword in hand, this is less than ideal. In modern armies, a woman can point a gun and pull a trigger just as much as a man can (general female/male psychology and suitability for war environments aside). However, in the ancient world (a facsimile of which is how the LOTR is set in) physical strength is of even higher importance in battle. Of course a grown warrior could be slain by a child wielding a sword as luck and circumstances have a part to play in battle, but physics also tells us that if a 190lb muscular man swings a sword at a 110lb female, she's going to have a tough time parrying that. Also, let's not forget that men, generally speaking, are biologically expendable. A village of women warriors fighting and dying in battle would soon go extinct. 3 men surviving warfare can repopulate a village of healthy child bearing women. 3) Even amongst the elven women and such, they might isn't depicted in hand to hand combat, but rather through supernatural means. The walls thrown down by Galadriel or Melian weren't toppled because they punched them, but rather by their intrinsic magical might.
I think this is the correct way to interrupt Tolkien's "warrior women". He didn't make them interchangeable with men, he honored them for some of their shared strengths (psychological/political), but also kept them as distinctly female.
Replacement rate in a long war is often a forgotten part of warfare.
Theres a reason why Women are pedestalled in times of great recedes, its because a man cannot bare a child, hence men are not really needed in abundance, one man can impregnate multiple women, so you have more "expendability" on men, women however can give birth to the new generation as well as nurturing them.
Women must also be kept safe as they dont lay eggs, they must shoulder the responsibility of nursing it internally as well as externally, which making a pregnant women go on adventure and fight wars is the most ridiculous idea i ever heard, I'm talking about you "The Last Of Us 2".
Even in modern war, you rarely see female in combat, you dont see female in Seals or Ranger due to physical prowess, most female are logistic or base camp, away from the front, the notion that you can point, aim, and shoot is simple yes, but you have to take in psychological aspect of war, even the bravest of man can break under extreme conditions, a mine detonating wiping out your forward element in a flash of an eye, a machine gun whipping bullets past your head constantly, or a well placed HE/HEAT shell impacting the wall next to you. (Theres a reason why they said females are mor emotional compared to men)
The funny thing is women were usually a prized amongst the kingdom of man, and their importance for a growing nation is more important, because without population growth, who would have enough manpower to fight back. (THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WERE TREATED BETTER, They just have more value, does not mean the expectation of life was better off in both female or male. This relies heavily on events, historical date, and cultural views, there might be a nation that treated women better like greece and rome, or they were treated like peasants during the medieval conquest.)
In a formal way of seeing it bluntly, to a king, a man killed in battle is nothing more then a loss of 1 soldier, a loss of a women is a loss of generations of manpower. (Hence you are highly never going to see a female conscription.)
Well... yes and no. “[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 244) and "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi [the Elf-women] fought valiantly" (J.R.R. Tolkien. “Laws & Customs Among the Eldar". Morgoth's Ring).
But... there are a few exceptions: The early Valie Measse, Haleth (and many women of the people of Haleth) and Galadriel are clearly described as warrior women.
I was so scared to watch this.
Because alot of "fans" dont know the lore or just see a woman and think mary sue.
But this..
Yes!!
You sir did a great deed today
Stop hitting the pipeweed 💀
It's a pity Jackson did not portray to the letter Eowyn's role. Sort of like the sad liberties he took with Aragorn re: drive to claim his birthright and win the hand of his beloved Arwen.
I think its about execution with these fenale warrior characters to make them believable within tolkeins world of course.
Yup do the elves next
Thank you for being so positive in your reviews and videos, it’s really helpful when looking at someone’s perspective of a show or movie, and I have been waiting for your Rohirrm video to get an opinion that actually has constructive criticism and feedback. Thank you, May Illuvitar Bless you
Kullervo would probably be from Kalevala 🇫🇮 I think
"One of the *strange* practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
Who was the practice *strange* to?
Eowyn: "Though not a ‘dry nurse’ in temper, she was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis."
Letter 244
"Éowyn says that women must ride now, as they did in a like evil time in the days of Brego son of [mark showing name omitted] Eorl’s son, when the wild men of the East came from the Inland Sea into the Eastemnet."
HoMe VIII, Part 3, II, ii The Muster of Rohan
That practice was strange to Eldar and other Edain of Beleriand, as far as I understand, who did not have a custom of "many female warriors" (despite some of their females might fight in case of great need or hunt for pleasure).
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ Correct. Elf-women abstained from war, hence the custom of the folk of Haleth was unknown among the Eldar.
@@Tar-Elenion There were some cases of Elven women fighting, such as Galadriel fighting alongside Teleri in Alqua Londe or Idril fighting during the fall of Gondolin (in some sources). But those cases were not customary, as far as I understand.
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ Tolkien noted that while elf-women abstain from war, they will fight in desperate defence. Like Galadriel at Alqualonde (in some late variants) or Idril at Gondolin (in some variants).
I would love a video about elven women and women miar/valar/ainur
Cue all the anti woke comments. The only people benefiting from poorly written or shoehorned female characters are the companies getting money and the trolls who get more ammunition to hate on anything remotely inclusive. Anyway, this shouldn’t be complicated. Just write good characters that happen to be women, and if there isn’t a surplus in the work your adapting then WRITE SOMETHING ORIGINAL.
Hollywood is all about franchises now, because they just want a guarantee something will make money. The only way anything original gets made is if the director is a huge name like Nolan. Anyways rant over.
Tbh I never cared about the lack of a lot of women in the LOTR because A) I understand the time period and B)I don’t need all media to depict people who are like me. I relate to and admire characters like Aragorn just as much, because I happen to think being a human being is a stringer unifier than the division of what you have in your pants.
I can’t comment on rings of power but I felt Hera was a pretty decent balanced female character.
Yes to videos on elf female warriors and also on the Norse mythology and Finnish Mythology that inspired Tolkien!
THE CHEEKS ON EOWYN LOL
The only problem I have with this movie is , you hear the makers of the show say stuff like “there isn’t alot of strong female characters in Tolkien” they either haven’t read the books or are being disingenuous on purpose, I don’t have a problem with female characters being the star I just don’t want them to change Tolkien’s lore to fit “modern audiences” if you want a female lead I’m all for it but there are plenty to choose from in the lore, Luthien, Eowyn, Arwen just to name a few,
I don't get this purism litmus test. Are you arguing Tolkien was infallible, his lore beyond reproach, his words and ideas sacrosanct? He was just a man writing fiction.
Heck, even he retconned his own works in later publications. Call it Tolkien inspired and call it a day.
Arwen is not a particularly strong female character in the books. She's an object to be won by Aragorn with little agency of her own. She's very different from Luthien or Eowyn.
Eowyn's story has been told as part of the greater LOTR tale. Is there really a worthwhile story to be told about her childhood or her marriage to Faramir?
Luthien's tale is tied up within the greater Silmarillion, to which no one has the rights to adapt.
So if you want to tell a Middle Earth story with a female protagonist, what's the problem with inserting one into a preexisting story. Certainly, this can be done poorly, but that is not the case in War of the Rohirrim.
@@jtwil2191 And I think it really fits (this shouldn't be a spoiler since everyone knows the tale). Helm and his sons died before the war ended, and Frealaf spent the whole winter away. If you watch the movie without prejudice, you will like it and notice that she is mostly a medium to tell the tale of Helm and what happened after.
@@jonbazinet if Tolkien wanted to change HIS lore he is allowed to but he is dead so his work should be left how it is
@@jtwil2191 as I said before I don’t have a problem with a female character, but since Tolkien has passed I think it’s disrespectful to change his work to fit today’s audiences
I'm interested in Elf woman warriors. Am I the only one that interested in female elf warriors🤔
12:00 What happened to the Witch-King's ring?
Sauron actually had the Nine in his possession.
Fantastic. Well timed and clearly needed given given some of the comments.
List's interesting enough that the likes of Galadriel and Luthien had to be removed in a manner similar to how Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, Space Dandy, and Carole & Tuesday are sometimes disqualified from superlative English dubs because *they're that good,* hehe.
Interesting that Haleth's people's women soldiers never fought much in foreign wars, unlike the Greek mythology Amazons who've been quite notable in conflicts like the Trojan War (which also had Ethiopians and maybe even Indians; make of that what you will).
6:06: One can assume Tolkien read enough about the Resistance groups of WW2 (like Tito's Yugoslav movement), and also some notably costly failures (the Warsaw Uprising being one).
6:46: I assume these boys, old men, and women were most likely combat stave/spear wielders plus cavalry archers, akin to how medieval Japanese militia and women are skilled with horseriding, naginatas with emergency wakizashi shortswords, and sporting archery.
Again, though not a woman of the spotlight, gotta love Hama in The Two Towers book. Really wish he survived Helm's Deep.
One can easily wonder how many unsung women warrior heroines in all of Middle-earth history played the "Sweet Polly Oliver" routine made manifest by good old Eowyn.
13:40: Oh, please do.
I’d love to see a video of Tolkiens version of feminine power among the elves 🥰 Thanks for this, really great stuff!
My God, don't let Critical Drinker see this video!🤣🤣🤣
I've always felt Tolkien wrote great female characters. He just wrote so few of them 😅
Not really wrote so few, they were just often in supporting roles, serving as inspiration and sources of wisdom and rest for the heroes
It’s weird hearing this from so many guys, curious what most women are think