Atheist refuses to ground logic
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- Опубліковано 5 гру 2019
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##Reason #Philosophy #Mind
When you are arguing against God you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all.” - C. S. Lewis
There was a time when the words of C.S. Lewis meant something to me. The Screwtape Letters was possibly my favorite work of fiction.
But even though the words and works were beautiful, I look at the world now, and I am no longer convinced a god exists.
Johnathan For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
- Romans 8:24-25
Surrender = Happiness
@@badromenful I'm plenty happy without believing in things that I can't prove.
Or as Jesus put it "It's hard to kick against the pricks."
Johnathan with bible prophecy happening before our eyes how do you believe god doesn’t exist especially now
"I don't think that's a good categorization..."
Yes, because it reveals the limitations of your reasoning.
Graham Rathbone no there were the little dots because we all saw the video and he didn’t need to fully quote the man to get his point across. Kind of like how we all intrinsically know that there’s more to existence than the physical world and human beings are not the end all and be all of the universe... kind of like there’s a God.
Graham Rathbone Graham Rathbone we don’t believe that the universe was created for us, we believe that everything was created including human beings for God. The moral laws in Christianity aren’t just to help us thrive but to bring glory and our attention back to the one who is over it all.
On another note, the holes that have yet to be filled are not minor or insignificant at all. They are very much at the core of the question of everything.
How? Because we can’t see any stage of something such as a rock developing consciousness that it did not once have. We see no evidence of this slow but steady process. Darwins finches are a great example of this. He claims that the finches show evolution through natural selection. The only problem is that natural selection happens independently of any kind of evolutionary claim. They adapted to their circumstances. There has never been any new genetic material added to any of them which would support the claim. They were finches when they began and they are finches now. If we want to claim that natural selection is a large part of evolution we have a problem of eugenics for the human race. Skin tones and features adapted to their climate and circumstances but if natural selection is a great theory backing up evolution, which human race is more evolved?
Why? Why does this planet have order out of chaos to such an extent that it can facilitate life that has not been able to happen on any other planet in the solar system.
Our theories are nice and many can have strong threads, but if they are false, they are false at the beginning which has a tendency to allow a false presupposition to take hold on answering the rest of the “follow up” questions. The amount of questions and cliff hangers that are still there after our best minds and best technologies tells me that maybe some of these important questions can’t be answered with just looking closer at the natural forces. Maybe it doesn’t matter how many millions, billions or trillions of years we have. Because I have yet to see one thing lacking in consciousness, without the preexisting genetic material develop even a single neurotransmitting pathway.
@Graham Rathbone Let me finish the quote for you.
"I don't think that's a good categorization of the question, I, I."
Yes, he's limited by dealing with reality, and the question doesn't conform to anything we know about reality.
@Graham Rathbone It seems an honest apologist is as rare as a good argument for a god.
Atheist: I get it, I just don't like it
Turek : I can’t defeat Hitchens in a debate so I create strawman arguments and lie about what my opponent said.
Because it’s faith.
Mart TL1000S lol Hitchens was the one who created the most straw man arguments
@@NewCreationInChrist896 believe me because i said so is not a good reason to believe religious leaders
@@mylucidadventures6540 you look like the atheist in the video, are you?
This young man understands just enough big words to confuse himself.
I know he just babbles in circles
Being cornered @ 4:58 he put the concepts of logic, justice and love on the same par as a unicorn (which in old English KJV would have been the wild ox)
"God," is the Universe. She expresses herself through Nature.
@@harveywabbit9541 does this 'she' love evil, suffering and destroying the created beings?
@@solemnexistence
Is an earthquake evil?
The wise will seek wisdom. The fools will negate the true.
Yes, Frank is very foolish for refusing to acknowledge the truth. You can tell that he knows deep down that none of it is true, but he still talks like he believes. Perhaps he is trying to convince himself, perhaps he likes the money all the gullible believers give him too much to quit.
@@somerandom3247 - And here you are trying to negate the truth for your own lack of understanding.
Some Random I think you're an atheist. If you are, how do you think the universe got here.
Some Random How does he get money from going to multiple colleges a spending money from travel get him money?
@@jimmyneutron1295 first of all your name is a contradiction. Second he gets paid to go to those colleges. So yes hes making money and a lot of it. You actually think he's there for free? Lol
Please pray for my friend's 3 year old daughter named Austyn. She was just diagnosed with cancer.
Cancer is your god's plan. Why would the plan change because you ask?
Probably take the child to a hospital though
Will do Janelle!
@@charleskent8090 Thanks Charles!
Keep taking the child to get medical treatment though
I happen to be a Christian so I'm likely to agree with Frank on most points, but what impresses me about him most is his grace and respect for individuals not his intellect.
That's good because his intellect is just high enough to impress gullible college kids who are more likely to be emotionally rebellious than intellectual, but not good enough to impress atheists who actually know what they are talking about, like me.
Kuffar Legion
What’s a “paradox of perfection”?
I believe it’s something you made up to go along with everything else in your post that you made up.
Kuffar Legion First, you never said anything about shadow banning.
Second, everyone know what shadow banning is.
Third, only UA-cam can shadow ban, UA-cam users cannot.
Fourth, nice deflection. You can’t answer my question, yet you can type for hours about stuff I didn’t ask.
Fifth, I highly doubt that Frank and team are going to shut down polite conversation.
If that were the case, why do they expose themselves to live audiences that can’t be shut down?
Seems counter intuitive if you ask me.
Sixth, I’m going to assume you have no idea what you are talking about since you’ve left it up to me to research your own position.
That’s not how conversation works.
Kuffar Legion Again, you didn’t say anything about shadow banning. Page owners CANNOT shadow ban-only UA-cam.
A page owner deleting a comment is completely different than being shadow banned by UA-cam.
If you’ve been shadow banned, then multiple people on a different page flagged you. You can’t blame Frank and team for being shadow banned.
It’s usually the commenters flagging that gets you shadow banned.
And again, you type all day long without answering the question-GREAT JOB!!
Kuffar Legion There doesn’t have to be a good reason for people to flag your posts. People censor others (especially Muslims) all the time for no other reason than to suppress your thoughts and ideas. It happened to me constantly from commenting on atheist pages, so again, blaming Frank and team (without any evidence) is just wrong.
Regarding your argument, have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, God’s hands could be tied in some way?
I can guarantee you that the act of God dying on the cross is a Paradox of perfection.
“I don’t think it’s a good category of the question” really means “I have no answer to that question so I’m going to result to a cop out statement”
I think he was just trying to say that the laws of logic aren't something that exist independently of human persons and that logic is just a human construct, but sometimes it's hard to articulate yourself especially in a public scenario like that.
Bru Master Exactly that Frank denied and tried to explain to this confused atheist 🤷♂️
@elbin exactly. He didn't understand the conversation.
Unfortunately the guy in this video was way out of his league. He didn't understand the terminology being used and couldn't comprehend the argument. Materialism cannot explain the existence of things immaterial and unfortunately for the atheist, many things that exist are immaterial.
@@jmonroe6125 Name one thing that is immaterial and show how you know that thing exists. Remember that thoughts, dreams and ideas are material as they exist only a brain.
He couldn't answer the question because there is no materialistic source for these things. Great answer.
Materialism and Atheism are not married. Same erroneous trash spewed by Kim Patrik.
We both presuppose logic.
God is unnecessary
@@theespionageact5249 ... logic must have a source. Right? So where do you think logic came from?
@@Scorpion-my3dv advanced brain.
@@theespionageact5249 right. Lol
Frank is right. The atheists are confusing epistemology and ontology.
They purposely confuse much more than that.
He was picking and choosing between the two to suit his desires
@@nikos4567 I guess I would ask if a square circle is an actual thing? Numbers exist outside of the human mind's ability to comprehend them. Square circles do not.
Am I on the right track?
The kid is obviously wrong in his logic. He kept insisting on KNOWING logic,but what Turek asks is GROUNDING logic. The kid either don't get it or he is under self-denial.
@@nikos4567 Frank's statements and argument is not incoherent. I'm not sure what your having a hard time understanding.
Atheist seems to be sooo confused by his own logic !!
They’re not refusing logic they are refusing both truth and faith.
@@NewCreationInChrist896 nope they refuse your claims. you need proof for you to be able to say they are refusing truth
vlad mashv
Nope.He just sees through Turek who is trying to claim that his god is necessary for logic when god isn’t logical and makes no sense .
Not exactly, the kid's problem is that he's trying to say that laws of logic existed outside of us, but it was also made by us, all at the same time.
That is illogical.
Eric N ! Thank you Eric ,
"I look at Christopher Hitchens as a role-model for debate," really tells you all you need to know.
exactly. has anyone even seen Hitchens give actual counter-arguments for God's existence? All he ever did was argue against the utility of religion, and aspects of religion he didn't like and that's it.
@@mkmarak I believe there was a debate with him and William Craig where he did as close to that as could be reasonably expected of any atheist. That being said, I think there are others who have done a better job defending the antitheist position, though they lack Hitchen's stage presence.
Thank you.
Yeah, that guy lost every debate i ever saw. Never stays on topic , always insults his opponent and people who dont agree, never has his facts straight (or just lies) , never answers a question or chalenge , never has a proof for his claims. He says he doesnt need proof but as long as the theist have proof he must either bring proof of his own or debunk the oponents evidence. He does neither, he just changes the subject with a meaningles story about something unrelated, that he and his fans think it makes him sound smart and educated.
Hitchens should be used as a great role model for persuasive speaking. Not as a philosopher though. He was admittedly a very good speaker and made illogical arguments sound reasonable.
denialism can be ugly to watch.
Don't forget Apathetic and Indifference persons who really just don't care. True, you never see them on the stage but nevertheless they are encountered a lot on the street.
@@knightoflight8249 Yes at least old mate is putting energy into thinking about these things and having the conversation. most when confronted with any meaningful topic will trigger off with some nonsense or laugh it off like a joke and quickly revert back to some vain topic.
This guy found himself hitting a wall with Frank’s question and refused to acknowledge it as valid question.
I hate when people want to debate,but refuse to have an actual debate.
Which, ironically, is what Christopher Hitchens was best at. I have never seen a more diligent question dodger than Hitchens. I keep saying that Hitchens should have been a politician, not a debater.
@@chosenone8408 But you're saying that out of your religious beliefs, not because it's true. You just disliked Hitchens opposition to your beliefs.
@@TonyEnglandUK *But you're saying that out of your religious beliefs, not because it's true*
Wrong. My religious beliefs are irrelevant concerning the visual and auditory evidence of Hitchens dodging a question.
@@chosenone8408 What question did he dodge? Like all religious people, you're great at making claims and dreadful at producing evidence to substantiate those claims.
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." Psalms 14:1
“They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”
"that's convincing."
-Nobody ever
Nice to see Christians up-voting insults from their holy book!
Amen. Some seek to find a problem for every solution. Gregory simply loves his pornography too much, and the belief in God would interrupt that.
@@superdog797 If you’re insulted by what the Bible says, then you are insulted by God himself. 🤷♂️
This atheist so confused
As always.
i dont think he is
you get such a short time on the question part and it could be nerv racking for many people.
@@mylucidadventures6540 Very confused
@@ZeddicusTheMage nah not really
This was amazing Praise God I love this guy.
can you demonstrate your god to exist?
@@alanbaraka9800
IF you just open your eyes you'd see that God does exist even if u dont believe all of creation shouts of His glory, you know whats really heartbreaking is that one day say your right there is no God we die ok lives goes on but say one day we die which last time I checked 10/10 people die and their is a God and you have to answer to Him your gonna spend eternity in a place called hell which was not created for you let me tell u something God loves u so much He gives you and I a chance to get it right its called salvation and its only through Jesus Christ.
@Jim Mignon "you'd see that God does exist even if u dont believe all of creation shouts of His glory". What method did you use to determine what is and isn't created? "say your right there is no God we die ok lives goes on but say one day we die which last time I checked 10/10 people die and their is a God and you have to answer to Him". That's Pascal's wager. Basically you use fear mongering to compel people to believe something is true not because of sufficient evidence but out of fear that they may be wrong and the consequences are to great to take that chance. It's mafia mentality. Do as I say or I hurt you. Problem with this is that it applies to literally every religion. Are you 100% absolutely certain that Ra, Odin, Xeus, Allah, and all the other god's don't exist? Nope, because if you were you could provide demonstrable evidence to show that. So by your own standard since you don't know they are the real god you would need to follow those religion's too. But you can't follow one religion without going against the dictums of another. Which is the problem. Pascal's wager is an exorcise in futility and degrades the value of truth. You want people to believe in your god? Then present testable conclusive evidence to show he exists. Which is why I asked you to explain the method you used to determine what is created or not.
Alan Baraka the existence of God is neither demonstrable or non demonstrable. Do you make the positive claim there is no God?
Goldni8372
I’ve not seen any convincing evidence to persuade me that god exists . Do you have any ? If not why would anyone take that leap of faith and believe one does ?
He's trying to come up with an argument even he doesn't understand or can explain. Dr. Turek does another outstanding job as he explained the kids argument better than he did.
Looks like the kid understood Frank's rebuttal but doesn't want to acknowledge it.
omg all these fallacies again, he says laws of logic exists independent of human mind. That is retard! logic only exists in human minds.
Turek is such a fraud
Frank Turek knows what he says is untrue, but he thinks getting more numbers excuses his lies. You need to do a better job of seeing liars for what they are.
@@MGoudsmits false
@@thBrilliantFool I do not do false.
The lad should re-train as a chef. That was quite a word salad he knocked up there.
I love this comment.
"God," is the Universe. She expresses herself through Nature.
The lad was not a public speaker, of course he could not structure his statements.
@@floydthibodeaux1844 Agreed, but the lad should listen. You can not learn anything without disengaging your mouth and engaging your ears for 5 minutes.
@@marwood1969 lol that is truly funny coming from a theist.
In my experience theists only wait for their turn to speak. They don't listen, only hear...and they either do not or pretend not to comprehend simple logic.
“I think that all things, in their way, reflect heavenly truth, the imagination not least.” - C. S. Lewis
@god slayer He only started to write children's books in his later years when he got bored with philosophy. His early work is literally nothing but philosophy and theology.
Imagination and heaven,,,,you said it...
“If there were no human beings on the planet would the rules of logic exist?” That question made him choke, even people in the crowd were thinking that’s true lol😂
Well the answer is yes, logic is not just for humans ..plenty of plants animals, insects, fish for example use logic it is a cause and effect system it's not an ideology
@@oftin_wong
Yes that's why Frank calls them laws of logic.
@@lilchristuten7568 frank is not a clever indivual , he is deluded, logic is a method not a law
@@oftin_wong
Logic is a system of laws not methods.
@@lilchristuten7568 well then please details the laws of logic ...im all ears
He just has a big mental block.
Timothy Fish yeah, it’s called pride.
@Timothy Fish and Frank who claims his magic god is real is better?
Alan Baraka yes
Timothy Fish,
The kind of mental block you get when you read Numbers 31:15 -41 or Judges 19-22?
@@todbeard8118, without knowing what you think those passages are saying and what you think I think those passages are saying, I have no basis from which to answer your question.
Frank did well and kept his cool.
why wouldn't he have kept his cool? they had a discussion; that's all. did you sense something provocative?
@The Melodist no, Frank didn't do well at all. He claimed his god is where we get our morals from and yet didn't demonstrate his god to exist. That's not good, that's poor.
@@alanbaraka9800 well now in all fairness, we're only seeing one guest's question. We really don't know if he addressed God's existence already, or after this discussion.
@Dan Delgado what does your response have to do with her response? She was talking about the video. You are talking about something entirely different.
@Dan Delgado Christianity has plenty of arguments as to why the Christian God is the one true God. I'm sure you've read them before. Or maybe you haven't. I don't know. If you have, still you don't believe? Jesus Christ is the center of our faith and sets us apart from any other religion. He is the Lord and he alone is the Savior of the world.
He doesn't think it's a good question because he can't answer it logically...
I watched the debate between Alex Oconner and Turek that they were talking about.
And same thing happened, even Oconner couldnt explain the ontological reason behind logic and morale.
You don't know what ontology is. Ontology describes the real world by defining a system of concepts. What you mean is teleology, a very weak and largely discarded branch of philosophy.
"I don't know why the universe acts the way it does." Not hard to say.
Dance, dude, dance!... Hitchens two-step.
Keep the epistemology-ontology equivocation fallacy going! Chris Hitchens would be proud.
😂😂
Materialism has no basis when comes to logic, love ect. What is there not to understand. They exist with or without the physical. God is the "mad" scientist.
Materialism and atheism go together like bread and butter.
@@toarrestsomeoneistoviolate2643 They are one and the same.. erroneous,and illogical.
ForeverandAlways Me:I’m not sure why you assume all atheists are materialists. A lot of atheists are compatibilists and most probably haven’t thought much about it. Some Christians believe in the literality of the Bible but I don’t assume all do. Some Christians believe in annihilationism or universalism rather than eternal conscious torment but I don’t assume all do. Things can exist by contingency or necessity. Things that exist by necessity include logic, numbers, propositions, other possible worlds and a god if you’re so inclined. What is there not to understand?
@The LOL
*"Materialism and atheism go together like bread and butter."*
The above is totally false.
@ForeverandAlways Me can you demonstrate your god to exist?
"What they have are complaints about how God is running the universe." I love this!!
Exactly, the first "arguments" atheists usually throw against the existence of God are a constant criticism of how He runs things. It's basically "I don't like how God runs the universe, therefore He doesn't exist."
I'm an atheist. My argument against the existence of the god of the Bible begins with him instructing readers of his holy book, with no compassion, or guilt, or lawbreaking, to kill entire towns full of people if just one person in that town worships a different god to him. Go read Deuteronomy 13:13-19:21. That's why I have a complaint about your god.
They are making arguments against scripture which is a human construct ...you guys just cant get your head around it because you believe it's the word of God, think for a minute that it's not real then you might understand the line of questioning
Atheists don't care if God exists or not. And the reason why athiests don't like God is how he's portrayed in the bible, he goes violence first when he doesn't like something. He could change peoples hearts like he did with the Phaero of Egypt, except softening the hearts to be open to him instead of hardening.
@@Orange1117 I'm an atheist, the first questions I ask is where's the evidence to support the bible as being true without conformation bias and circular reasoning.
If you go straight to faith and just believe it and god will show you, than one can safely say that that God probably didn't exist.
I don't discount the existence of Gods there's just little to no evidence to support it.
There is an order to the universe that exists independent from humans. We are, however, the only ones that are able to appreciate this order and that can make it work in our favor. When I contemplate the order of the universe I get the strong conviction that it was created with purpose. Combined with the concept of the unmoved mover this convinced me that God must exist.
Now call out to Him and ask Him to show himself to you. He showed himself to me three years ago when I wasn’t even looking for him. He supernaturally healed me, I heard His voice multiple times, feel his presence almost every day (Holy Spirit) and he’s the one who’s kept my entire life.
Humble your heart and call out to Him. He will show himself to you bro.
My Account I am a baptised born again Christian. I just explained the rational side of my search for God
We're not the only ones who can make the order work in our favour. We're simply the best ones at this.
Which parts of nature give you the impression of purpose? Are there some that don't? If so, where would lie the difference?
Also, are all of those purposes good, or are there some bad ones?
@@krzyszwojciech Everything that God creates has purpose. It may not be for our purpose, or we may not have discovered its purpose, but everything has a purpose. These purposes are all good because it's impossible for God to do evil.
when you say, how?
they come up with a million explanations.
but when you say, why?
they will say, its not relevant to the question.
@Grab Lemon the death and resurrection of Jesus.
@Graham Rathbone why not?
@Graham Rathbone do you?
@Graham Rathbone ok then, do support your statement.
@Graham Rathbone am i?
It feels like he's talking to someone who's drunk and high.
It's going nowhere.
Hopefully Dr. Turek was able to have a good conversation with him.
How was he categorizing a question? He wasn't
Exactly, exactly why Frank by grace shut it down right there... Game, set, match.
He memorized his atheist response from the internet wrong.
This was a pretty good exchange. Both were being respectful of each other and the subject. Both made their positions fairly clear and I understood where each was coming from. This is what I hope more Q&A sessions, open dialogues, etc. were like.
Logic: Science can neither disprove nor Prove a god. Faith is always going to play its part.
exactly, when you can't prove something you really want to be real, you pretend
The laws of logic don't exist outside of human minds. They are ideas, and they are descriptive, not prescriptive.
"...God gave them over to a reprobate mind..." - Rom 1:28
And, they don’t know He did.
So what you're saying is, your god is the author of confusion?
@@johnathanfuller1423 confusion ≠ reprobate
I said nothing and you are not clever.
@@FiciousCritik Good job wriggling out of that one. Follow up question, why should anyone care what's in the bible?
@@johnathanfuller1423 No free data from me.
You cannot afford my consult.
Good data cost$.
Get free stuff from Bernie.
@@FiciousCritik My problem was assuming that you cared.
"I don't like the question" is not a valid counterargument in a debate.
The reason Gregory or anyone can't explain the ontology of abstract concepts such as love, morals or the laws of logic is because these things don't have ontology in the same way that matter does. The ontology of abstractions depends on the actions and interactions of matter. They describe the actual or plausible actions and processes carried out by matter.
Why are things intelligible? It is a fundamental question which cannot have a materialistic grounding. It is just turtles all the way down.
Our species would have propably died off if we couldn't make sense of our surroundings. But the why questoon is the wrong question, instead we should ask how did we acquire that ability and go from there.
Logos is rising
i thought he already rose.... did i go back in time and still have the internet??? gush darn that lost tech
@@mylucidadventures6540 Another bad troll. Get a life, kid.
@@ZeddicusTheMage says the person who literally went to all my msgs just to say troll LOL this is the only one i was trolling on
One of my favourite videos from this channel! Thank you!
This is what happens when people regurgitate books and confuse themselves, they look foolish. Knowledge without
wisdom. They love that he can spout all these big words, but they are like hot air. No "sub sense".
Logic doesn't exist outside of our minds. The objective reality behaves a certain way and logic is our tool to describe and predict that behavior.
Of course “logic” exists outside our minds. Like you said, it is a tool we use, and there is a *correct way* we must use logic.
@@justonetime6179 There is a correct way to use it, sure. But claiming that the existence of logic proves the existence God is not in accordance with it. The fact that I can't be David and not be David at the same time and in the same sense (i.e. the logical law of non-contradiction) doesn't prove the existence of anything. You may claim logic obviously exists outside our minds if what you mean by logic is that the reality functions in a certain regular way. Turek's argument seems to boil down to this: There is some regularity, therefore God. How is that logical? Why can't the reality just happen to be regular?
Logic is 'a' tool' not 'our' tool.
Will 2+2=4 remain the same even when we stop existing or will it continue to be correct regardless? And how do you have access to universal states of affairs?
@@real6086 Let's say two apples fall off one branch of a tree and another two apples fall of another branch - there’ll be 4 new apples under the tree, and it doesn't matter if a human or a god is around to observe it. Basic math is just a way of conceptualizing this reality. As for higher math, it's derived from basic math. As for your second question, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.
Not sure if the guy didn't comprehend what Frank was saying or just choosing to not admit defeat. But Frank made it crystal clear how materialism is impossible to answer logic, mathematics, etc...
Lol, this is common. If a a shoe weighs 2lbs, your going to see a literal number 2 pushing down on the shoe, because numbers are immaterial.
I love how Frank categorize ideas in such a way that the objectives of the matter wil be properly addressed rather than using uncontextualized random of thoughts proceeded from no fundamental principles.
Frank. I really appreciate you. Keep doing the good work!
The first guy asking the question looked like a character named tattoo from an old tv show called fantasy island.
Sad Puppy
That was a great show
More like "Boss, De plane, De plane!!" 👆
MC Oz In this atheist's case it's more like "De pain De pain"
Frank’s argument is entirely based upon the basis of ‘ we don’t know the origin of things including morals therefore a being created them and that being is the Christian God. In essence - the illogical and defunct God of the gaps argument. Frank is articulate but anyone familiar with the subject would easily show his arguments to be false or without foundation.
We will pray for you🙏
@@anthonyp2113 Then can we think for you?
@@johnathanfuller1423 no need to thank me my friend. God loves you
@@anthonyp2113 I'm not convinced one of those exists, but the sentiment is appreciated.
He couldn't answer the question because he didn't want to.
He got you Frank. You followed that line of thought and pretended not to. ...then went onto your prerecorded 2nd hand car sale man pitch
The lad is just going around in circles, one second he agrees that the laws of logic are independent of the human mind then he says that they come out of the human mind.
Wow, this dude is really making my head hurt....🤣
Thinking is hard when you first start out. Keep at it, it will get easier the more you do it.
@Paul Morgan stop talking about the python in my pants!
Reminds me of Tatoo from fantasy island, me thinks he still lives there
Reason is a sophisticated form of psychological reaction towards the situations we find ourselves in, thats pretty obvious.
Frank completely failed to respond to the atheist's objection to his mis-characterization of the laws of logic.
Impressed with Frank's patience.
Frank says that he thinks that atheists have complaints on how God is running the universe. How can an atheist complain about God?
@Arthur Ash The only proof these godless reprobate atheist scum might accept is the hellfire roasting that they're gonna get come judgment day. Then again, they could still be denying it and say they're just being tortured by extra terrestrials.
@Arthur Ash There is a majority of belief of even the most astounding things when there is valid evidence presented. In fact, evidence makes unnecessary the need to declare that a lack of belief is to be punished. For example, there is the belief that creatures too small for the naked eye to see can cause horrible disease; something inconceivable two centuries ago. All that is need for Muslims, Hindus and atheists to believe in the Christian god is sufficient valid evidence. That would also work to make unnecessary the use of fear which comes in the form of punishment for disbelief.
@Arthus Ash I would need proof of a god. A god is an amazing concept with supernatural powers. I would need evidence accordingly. I can only guess what would convince me. Here it is: God would have to come down and speak to me audibly. Hypothetically he would ask me what he could do to convince me. I would say, line-up the stars in the night sky to say "I am your god". The next day flicker the sun for an hour fully dark then fully sunlit. I would guess that would do it. There is the notion that my perception could have been altered by a drug or hypnosis, but that would be true with anything my senses perceive and basically everything my senses perceive I am obligated to accept because survival depends on it.
@Arthur ash All of these things you ask exist because if they did not exist we would not be able to ask the questions. Why does the sun shine? We require water so why does water exist? If the laws of physics were different and gravity were even slightly greater, earth would have long ago been pulled into the sun, if earth would have been able to form at all. None of these kinds of questions gives any clear evidence for a god, let alone a god who exists to this day, let alone the Christian god. If you believe in a god and you want some kind of vague reassurance, then you can point to such things. It's like pointing at the apple tree outside my window and claiming it is evidence that the route of Johnny Appleseed was just outside my door. It get a "maybe" but a very _very_ unlikely maybe.
@VAIO294 Looking out through my eyes and seeing a tree or mountains is not _good_ evidence of God's creation. Then it is the Christian God or a Hindu god or a god that has long since vanished? That's the problem. Quoting scripture does is an indication of nothing. Many people are capable of writing words., including you and me.
Where is the full video for this? Is there a place where we can access this information?
Frank gets it right about the distinction between epistemology and ontology, but completely brushes past whether or not we have access to the ontological nature of anything.
Because if evolution is real, there is no need for a God.
And evolution is a fact, so.......
That’s not true. We build computers all the time who’s sole purpose is to figure out the best way of doing something. We are their creator, their god, and they evolve.
completely true. so much so that the religious have specifically targeted evolution for destruction. Dawkins himself said before Darwin it would have been extremely hard to be an atheist. Now since Darwin, religion is in decline atleast in the western part of the world
The title is misleading. it should read Atheist refuses to accept Franks assertion that logic can't exist without the existence of Franks god.
What the atheist is saying genuinely confuses me. It seems he thought he had a good question to ask, but when he's actually challenged after asking it, he starts to fumble and tumble on whatever logic he had.
This young man must be a fan! I believe I have seen him in another venue where Frank gas spoken. How wonderful!
I listen to him to understand the opposition, but that was the only time I've seen Frank Turek in person
Dr. Turek is factually accurate in saying 'the materialist worldview is one that must say we are pre programmed,' not to mention if everything were totally random, disorder and anarchy would be the only logical reality.
How can anyone live without Jesus? I used to be so confused just like this young person. I look back and see how confused I was and it makes me grateful I'm not there anymore. I look at him and it makes me so sad that there are still so many who are lost. Lord help him.
Amen. You could have said this any better.
@@derrickcarson Amen brother ❤
You know Jesus was only born 2000 years ago ,
We have been knocking around for a 200,000 years .
@@mickqQ Jesus in the flesh was born 2000 years ago. But Jesus has always been and will always be.
@@derrickcarson Amen!
Alex O’conor sounds like royalty.... Ladies and Gentlemen, his majesty Alex Oconor.
When are you releasing the full program?
Fear Knowledge!
Live For Truth!
Endlessness!
When you don't know that you don't know...
My issue with Frank is that he has this idea that since all atheist do not have a better explanation that answers all questions for why things exist, that he is more right since he does have an explanation. This does not mean his explanation is right though. This follows the same principle as the logical fallacy that states " Just because i can not prove you wrong does not mean you are right"
If you've seen enough videos of Frank, there are times where he definitely admits he could be wrong. The problem is that no one has provided sufficient reasoning for all of the arguments and evidence that better explains it all from his viewpoint. A lot of people don't want God to be the answer. I get it. It seems lazy or disingenuous since it just feels like you are answering all life's questions with 'God did it.' As humans we want to understand it properly. However, if you honestly look at the arguments, evidence, data and give God a shot you can see how it works.
Great job Frank!
Turek FTW!
To be fair to the young man, he actually answered this question well enough. Dr Turek already had a preconceived conclusion to get to, and that prevented him from genuinely listening to the answer the young man gave.
3:12 the young man answered the question about what the "laws" of logic are made of. And he's right, as far as I can tell. The laws of logic are concepts of human minds. It's why we don't have just one system of logic, but several ones being made up down through history. Propositional logic, modal logic, mathematical logic... And so on.
4:57, the young man again says that these things do not exist independent of human minds. They are concepts that we developed but are useful nonetheless. He repeated this again later. But Dr Turek, already carrying a preconceived notion like all Christian apologists do, did not bother to listen to the young man genuinely.
5:31, Dr Turek then disingenuously calls this "epistemology". I think that is flat-out wrong! The young man was NOT saying that this is how we KNOW the laws of logic; that would be epistemology. He was saying that the laws of logic ARE, BY THEIR "NATURE", CONCEPTS OF HUMAN MINDS which are nonetheless very useful. But Dr Turek pushed this "epistemology" talk to the point that the young man ACTUALLY was forced to switch to epistemology (5:43), which he was not trying to talk about in the first place.
The boy answered the question well enough. The laws of logic are not independent of minds. While nature is itself independent of minds, the TOOL we use to know NATURE is a development of human minds. And there are many such logical systems that have been invented over the course of human history. The laws of logic are not discovered, they are concepts of minds. There is nothing contradictory about this unless you already have a preconceived notion that the laws of logic are grounded in a God.
Which makes me wonder - why do Christians think God is the ground for the laws of logic? If these laws are truly independent of any minds, why would they be dependent on God's mind? Why, if the laws of logic did exist, could they not be a brute fact of fundamental reality, a sort of "mystery" we don't or maybe can't know? Christians often claim God, or certain things about God, is mysterious in this way. Why would that same argument be out of place to apply to the laws of logic, supposing they really exist and are mind-independent? I do not see any reason why. Perhaps someone here can explain it to me.
Lol just because logic is expressed in different forms, does not mean we are working with different logic. We are all working with the same 4 laws of logic: 1)Law of causality 2) Law of non-contradiction 3)Basic reliability of sense perception 4)Analogical use of language.
And nice try expressing mathematics as logic. They are two different things.
Finally, to suggest that we invented logic is absurd. Just like the suggestion that the universe “created itself,” we could not possibly invent logic. Why? Because that would mean we were using logic to create logic.
When Christians ground logic in God, we’re not doing it to brag or call atheists dumb, we’re saying it’s literally impossible to create things like a universe, logic, mathematics, etc without a transcendent mind. We didn’t create these things, we just discovered them.
You wouldn’t say “we created the law of gravity.” It’s just as absurd to suggest “we created logic.”
Jide I think you're saying we created laws of logic. If that is so, .... before there were any humans at all, how would "there are no humans in existence" be logically true?
@@daveross7731 no one would be making that statement if humans didn't exist. It's not so complicated.
@@jaydon225 you seem to be insinuating that without the human mind to perceive them, laws cannot exist. That’s absurd. The law of gravity clearly existed before human beings did. As did the laws of logic. Let’s take the law of non-contradiction for example.
Before humans came along, rocks existed. So did water. So did the law of non-contradiction.
Just because there were no humans around to label these things or perceive them did not mean they didn’t exist.
If humans invented laws of logic, that would mean that prior to human beings existing, there was a time that a rock could be both wet and dry at the same time and in the same sense. Luckily, humans came along and got together and voted that they didn’t want that to be the case and changed it. That’s philosophically absurd. We didn’t create laws of logic, they were themselves created before humans ever came along.
2:11 my reaction to the phrase “moist robots” proves total depravity lol
Not being able to explain something from materialism doesn’t automatically mean it comes from god.
It’s another “god of the gaps” argument. “I don’t know... therefore, god.”
May God save this young man, in the name of Jesus I pray, amen.
There were definitely a few moments in there where I was just like Greg, Frank's got you there
A great analogy for this is a computer memory storage hard drive. Let’s say you have two hard drives, both the same physical size, storage size (50GB) and brand. Now let’s fill one up right to it’s limit at 50GB with photos, videos, mp3 files etc... now if we were to physically weigh each hard drive, which would be heavier? The answer is neither. They’d both weigh the exact same. But how could this be if one is “full” with files? Well you can’t just cut open a hard drive that’s full and say “oh look here is that picture I’ve been looking for” and then pluck it out of the hard drive. Why? Because the data is stored in counter space! A bunch of 1’s and 0’s. The same goes for someone’s brain for example! A surgeon who works in materialism can’t just cut open someone’s skull and brain and say “oh look... here’s that thought that caused this persons depression” because the THOUGHT is NOT STORED PHYSICALLY in the brain, it’s in counter space. This analogy alone should get people thinking past the materialistic nature of our surroundings.
Information is stored and transmitted as state. I can have seven blocks either standing or lying down and encode an ASCII character. When I wipe them off the table, state is lost - and so is the information. But state ALWAYS needs a medium, a physical layer. Be it air pressure, electrical charge, reflectivity of a material, flags, you name it. That's easy because only matter and energy can have state. Nothing else.
I felt like I was watching Charlie Brown there for a minute!!
Atheist is pure pride
AJK just like their father. They want to be their own god
@@letsprayandfasttogether9618 my dads human and he aint want to be a god he is christian
Pride goes before destruction...
Daniel Mione My dear friend you really don’t understand the concept that’s ok I get what you are saying tho but when you if you ever read the Bible before it’s too late to find answers and truth, salvation is in Jesus Christ there is an answer to “your why” or what reasons you may have personally that God can answer for you to go in some “direction” get a Bible and read it if you can’t understand the Bible that is what your Christian Father is there for, if he is a true Bible believer. If you can’t open your mind to a possibility that God is bigger than you well my dear friend you have created a world of your own that states you are your own god you are in control of everything “ in what you say, do, think, watch, listen too “ that no one can tell you what to do you, you can do whatever you want idk there no reasons or logic for anything let alone why is there a God in the first place idk but you have yourself in a box as most of us do when we don’t understand things and don’t see the bigger picture we go our own way but God gives us a way but your comments resonates with a lot of the scriptures that state about lack of knowledge you seem to be lacking I’m here to argue or say I’m right that’s not what God is about is not what Christianity represents what we may not agree with and feel anger at all towards God and his word is that it goes against our very nature ( sinful nature ) that doesn’t want any part of him that is where the enemy is Ephesians chapter 6 verse 10-20
Isaiah chapter 14 verse 12
James chapter 1 verse 5
Hosea chapter 4 verse 6
2 Peter chapter 1 verse 3
Phillipians chapter 4 verse 12
Job chapter 21 verse 14
Psalm chapter 14 verse verse 1
@@stefaniej8597 hello, thank you for the long and thoughtful post, I was a Christian for 17 years and the reason I'm not anymore is I don't believe God wants any part my life, when I had many questions God didn't awnser them so I went to my pastors and online to find the answers, I still didn't get them and so I had stopped believing entirely as I studied I got a lot of answers I was looking for but many remain a problem for me, I post in this thread to get people thinking about what they say, even though God exists there flat out statment that all these things have to have a God is wrong the atheists have a version where no God is required. I try to pray to God but I don't get a lot of dialog I honestly think he just dosent give a rip. Thank you again for the comment
Logic is simply a process carried out by the brain to discern between statements that make sense and statements that do not. Also why can't a material process be good enough to understand reality when woo woo clearly is? Reasoning is a highly sophisticated form of reacting.
Yeah but if what you just typed is simply your brain reacting, then you have no way of knowing if it’s true. If it’s just a result of the laws of physics causing your brain to react a certain way, then you don’t actually have free will to weigh two concepts and pick the best one, you’re simply typing what your brain forces you to. That’s the difference between reasoning and reacting and that’s the point Frank is trying to make. If your brain “fizzes” one way and mine “fizzes” another way then we’re just saying what our brain tells us to and neither of us can ever know we’re right.
Thanks Turek .. Apreciate u brother
The logic of community and its benefits are so evident that to deny it, one must divorce oneself of all reality!
5:34 "why do they exist (logic) independent of us knowing them" this is a similar question as "Why does God exist independent of his creation knowing him" Frank Turek would probably answer; "Because God just is, there is no reason, God is God". The naturalist could answer the same way. Logic is a property of the universe, and the universe just is, there is no reason. Christians like Frank would appeal to God as a brute fact, just like the naturalist may appeal to the universe (with its emerging properties like the law of non-contradiction) as a brute fact. The young questioner did very well in my opinion.
Pretty good retort. I would say that the laws of logic existed before humans. Humans simply discovered them. We didn't create them.
Lol. Why dont you type this on reasonable faith? So a professional philosopher can answer it
PineCreek
How does the nature of the universe that is not self-aware and self determined cause these emerging attributes, along with such things as the laws of logic? If there is no inherit reason in the universe how does it manifest reason, why would it, if it is what it is, what causes it to manifest or emerge something that it is not? Logic comes from the Greek word logos, originally meaning "the word" or "what is spoken", but came to mean "thought" or "reason". So really what we are talking about is Language, the Laws of thought. This fits perfectly with the Biblical Creation being an expression of thought, through the logos or word. The days of saying the universe just is, are over. The universe had a beginning, a cause. That means the energy and matter that make up the universe began to exist. It cannot be said the universe is a brute fact, because something else caused it to come into existence.
@Sticky Steve
Which God? The Biblical Mighty One is Yahweh, the One who is Existence, the Source, and causer of all that begins to exist. That is literally the meaning of the name. Is it your belief that everything we experience as reality came into existence out of nothing? I'm guessing not! So, logically there is a fundamental Source, that is the Ultimate reality, which had no beginning and just IS!!! Theist believe that source is Self-Aware and self-determining. Atheist because they reject this claim, automatically have to believe ultimate reality to be non-awareness without any self-determination. Which position goes along with the reality we experience and our own ability to experience it?
"@Sticky Steve Interesting, shall we examine that statement ......
"
For the God claim
If god was real we'd expect
Jesus to have resurrected in front of the whole world, appeared to every man woman and child on earth simultaneously whilst implanting the gospel into their minds. We'd expect stories from China, South America, Australia, India, Europe, North America, Africa - everyone, everywhere - no doubt at all that the event was 'special'
Interesting, shall we examine that statement.
Why would you expect that?
"we find a flaky story written decades after the 'event' with no reliable first hand accounts and no extra biblical witnesses
"
So, first, it is only "your opinion" that the account is "flaky," no doubt based on your presuppositional bias, and second it is only "your opinion" as to them not being first hand reliability accounts. It is recorded in these ancient text that they were eye witnesses to these thing. So why should I believe your opinion over their claims?
There is extra Biblical sources that support the Biblical account.
"If Yahweh was real, we'd expect everyone on earth to believe in the same god.
"
There is sufficient evidence to believe there is a Creator, and that is why we find this belief all over the world.
The fact that people make the Creator in the image of their own choosing only supports the Bible's claims, not refute them!
Again, why would you expect everyone to believe the same way?
"But we find a series of tribal gods, some more successful than others and within the yahweh belief we find 3,000+ variations on the beliefs and practices, we find that the god character was copied from earlier and surrounding cultures, we find a tribal god
."
Tribal, or Family structured, with the Father and Creator as the authority and head?
Again, idolatry does not refute the Biblical account of Yahweh, it supports what is written and what people have done by creating other "mighty ones" over Him! As to your claim, that the Hebrews/Israelite's borrowed from earlier and surrounding cultures, that again is just opinion. The events described in Genesis, show Mankind had dealing with the True Creator at the Beginning of the Creation before the written languages. I suggest you watch the two Patterns of evidence movies before accepting everything, so called "scholars" proclaim as the truth of history. What you will find is huge gaps in their own understanding and chronology, which they have filled in with assumptions the same way "scientists" do with origins and evolution.
"For the 'special' nature of man
We'd expect a being created in Gods image to be different from the rest of creation, we'd expect gods chosen people to have demonstrable benefits.
"
So, you don't think Mankind is different then the rest of Creation? Also, do you think that being a perfect reflection of the Supreme Being is something that a person can achieve denying and being apart from the Creator?
If your looking for the perfect image of the Creator, allow me to introduce you to the Messiah YahuShua who many today call by the erroneous transliteration Jesus. Also, do a study on the Jews, and how they had those demonstrable benefits but through rebellion lost them. Yahweh is faithful even when we are not, so their return to the Holy land was predicted and it happened. Do you find it strange that they retained their Identity when so many others lost theirs down through history? Do you find it strange that such a small nation, surrounded by it's enemies still survives today? Do you find it strange many of them reject the Messiah YahuShua still today, as predicted and that there is a small amount of people down through history and up to today that strives to lives by all the instructions of Yahweh as he did, with out adding to them or taking away from them?
"But we find we are in effect the same as all other animals in our construction, we share 98% of our DNA with our relative species, we find evidence beyond doubt of evolution. We find childhood cancer which you wouldn't expect from a creator being. And we find that cancer and disease rates and survival rates for those diseases to be no different between Christians and non Christians.
"
The word Evolution is used deceptively. No one denies there is evolution within certain limits. That we see and can confirm. When the claim is made about Macro evolution which extends outside of that range, that is an unsupportable assumption. Yes, we share much with animals, because we have a common Creator, and are made from the same Earth. Why should that be surprising? What you are not giving enough thought to is how we are different from them as demonstrated by our ability for self- awareness as individual selves, our ability in understanding the transcendentals or Truth, Beauty and Goodness. Our ability to understand the laws of thought/Logic and things though language and math which enables us to be having this conversation in this way today!
"Cosmology
We'd expect creation to look like the description in Genesis with the earth at the center of things, and somehow special.
"
Are you saying that to you the Earth is not special and the pivotal place for your continuing existence?
"But we find
250,000,000,000 suns in our galaxy
100,000,000,000 galaxies in the observable universe
100,000,000,000 planets in our galaxy
"
Yet nothing like the Earth in all of it!!! Don't get to confused by the size of things, that is just your perspective.
To an ant a room is enormous. What do you think the Creation is to it's Creator?
"If you were to pile up every grain of sand on earth, from the beaches, the desserts, the bottom of the ocean - every single grain. That doesn't come close to the number of stars, now select an individual grain of sand, study it closely because that's our whole solar system. Using our best electron microscope at this scale we can't see the earth, but imagine a single electron, now imagine the surface of that electron, thats earth, we can only occupy 15% of the surface of that single electron.
"
Your may not realize this but your close to quoting scripture there! If you would stop thinking in terms of a lower case g, as in god and think of the intelligence, will and power behind all of what you speak, you would glorify the Creator instead of the creation.
"Now step back and look at your continental pile of sand and think - if god created the universe, he made all of this for me to live on 15% of the surface of this electron.
"
Amazing right! Have you stopped to think He did that so you would understand His ability, power and intelligence?
Can you see how absurd it would be for you a created being to deny the Supreme Being who created that and you?
"yes, when you examine what we'd expect to find, we find the god claim wanting."
Wanting, because the "god" you have in your mind is a false god, so of course you would find it lacking in truth!
I think you should learn more about the True Mighty One, The Elohim over all Elohim, Yahweh. The Supreme Being who is not merely "in" existence, but IS Existence and causes all that begins to exist, which is everything you have pointed out in the universe that you seem to think refutes it's Creator!
Be humble and follow the Messiah!
Shalom/Peace
May God save this young and eloquent man, in the name of Jesus I pray, amen.
This is what I hate about debate, and discussion. The splitting of hairs, and the one-upmanship. The appearance of more intellectual than thou.
All sides are guilty of it, too.
I think a more basic question is required to explore this further: Can you prove these concepts exist independent of us.
This guy is ridiculous, thoughts comes from a thinking brain. And we know something is true when there’s evidence to prove it. How can logic exist without a mind?
I don't know. But unbelievers sure seem to enjoy insisting it
“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give me a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought; so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”
C.S. Lewis
The man was obviously a deep thinker haha
Today I learned you can say that question isn't categorized well as a legitimate reason to not have an answer.
Anybody know the outro music?
lol I don't unfortunately but I loved your comment among all the arguing and debating.
Good job! Another "V" for the Turek.
I'm too dumb and uneducated to understand the terminologies used in this debate. It's very simple, u can't have a painting without a painter.
Exactly. Don't worry about it, a lot of people don't and that's understandable. Honestly, in simpler terms, he's telling Frank that laws of logic are universal, which just means that it exists transcendentally, regardless of human beings existence, but given his materialism (we all are just material, molecules, matter in motion, moist robots with no free will) that's impossible. You can't have immaterial things in a material universe. God bless you :)
Exactly, in order for us to reason or use logic they have to exist before we come into existence. We didn't create them.
I probably wouldn't have gone so far as to call him dumb.... I think stubborn would be a better word because I think he could see he was wrong. He just couldn't admit it.
@@jmonroe6125 he called himself dumb not the guy in the video 🤣🤣🤣
@@YoxxSHIxx uh I don't think so
Our ability to reason and Logic is a product of evolution.
Logic exists independently of whether humans exist or not.
How do we then know, that we have the logic that existed beforehand, and not a flawed one?
What evidence do u have that logic is a product of evolution?
He’s trying to avoid the question because he can’t answer it without God.
He actually answered the questions quite well. But Turek kept straw manning him and misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) his point.
Why can’t we just say that human beings invented the laws of logic, the concept of love, the concept of morality? Why can’t these be merely artifacts of the human experience?
Mick M We would have needed logic in order to “invent” logic. Self defeating
@@MarkNOTW
We have existence which we can describe. We call those discriptions... Wait for it.. Logic.
J Ovesen I don’t find your comment coherent
@@MarkNOTW
Of course you don't. I didn't mention a god.
Mark L That doesn’t prove that we didn’t invent logic. You’re starting with the premise that human beings cannot invent things they use. You haven’t proven to me why that’s true.
*SIMPLE:* Gregory, if none of us were in this room right now, would that microphone in front of you still exist without anyone here to perceive it or use it??? *Drops non-perceived existent mic*
I got lost in the entire convo tbh, only at the end it made some sense to me
I like the way the title doesnt make any sense but it's got the word logic in it lol