Barell volume should presizely correspond portion of air! ! ! Otherwise you will lost accuracy. Do not see FPS, because wide bore needs much more air. And need another portion of air, because volume of barrel different.. Fps drop can help to understand that the portion of air not enough. PS\\ Do not see real hits to paper targets, only pictures from photoshop and bla bla. Wasted. Any tester could get any results. Cheat with, bb quality, barell clearness, numb and houp up proper installation.
There is an inherent flaw in your testing. You cant just swap the barrel and retest. You need to adjust the air for the same joule output. Widebores only perform with an appropriately calibrated amount of air.
6.03 generally produces the happy medium. I have used nothing more or less than a 6.03 with great results. Anything smaller increases your chances of jamming and the bb has more chance of contacting the inside of the barrel causing more friction to the bb and thusly affecting its flight path and causing the bb to lose distance due to velocity loss coming out of the barrel. anything more will produce unpredictable results without excessive fine tuning. keeping a slight air cushion with the 6.03 keeps the tolerances smaller and not having as much friction in the barrel with the bb, this equates to good distance and good accuracy. i would have liked to seen a test with 6.03 since anything 6.05 and smaller is considered tightbore.
As I've always said quality of bore matters most. A good brand is above and beyond the most important thing. A stock CYMA barrel will be total crap compared to say a madbull, or the better PDI, Orga, or EdGI barrels. Depending on your gun, you might need the tightbore for the better air efficiency (lower PSI) or a widebore if your setup is too efficient and your PSI has to be set too low to meet field requirements but causes the system to not function. Quality > Bore > Length
Absolutely. Needing to get a lower output on a given system is a perfectly legitimate reason to go WB. And in some cases it might even mean running the higher pressure will improve your groupings. But that has to do with the pressure and how the system operates not the barrel itself.
This is some great tech graphing that helps me visualize the results better. This tracks with what a lot of Japanese and Korean airsofters are doing which is going with the 6.05mm longer barrels.
What I understand from this, is that 1) The quality and cleanliness of the barrel is so much more important than anything else. 2) You generally want a happy medium, so around 6,03 JUST to increase your fps - since everything else is exactly the same 3) Now that your fps are higher, you can lift a heavier bb, giving you more range 4) The barrel is generally better to be of a default size - not too small, not too big. I could be wrong, but that's what I understood.
Interesting to see someone testing back to back. It would be good if you measured the bore diameters of the barrels though as they are not always as claimed sometimes buy significant amounts.
Video proves what Ive always thought, that the hop mods you do to the barrel are practically the only way to drastically change performance from a barrel.
Very interesting and many variables controled - good job. I am lost on the range question because I did not understand when and how did you test range.
My best m4 style accuracy and CONSISTENCY has come from PDI 6.03-6.05 at around 400mm.. I use S hop...too lazy to Rhop....I would rather do 6 S hops than one Rhop come to think of it! I use a flat nub in an element or Prowin hopup...The element getting the nod in a HPA build of course. Each gun has a preferred bucking...I experiment to find what the gun/bb combo likes best. I rarely shoot anything under a .3 these days I have never seen a 623 Orta shoot super well. My two bits
Hi guys. It wouldnt cost too much to have a smoothbore glass tube made to your sizes and highly polished internally so you can film the bb path with a high speed camera. It would be good to see the theories in effect.
Apparently yes, since Airsoft Mechanics Forums have been pushing the bb rides the top theory for years now. Recently Hunterseeker5 used a dye and cut a barrel open to show that bbs do ride the top and do NOT bounce around. ua-cam.com/video/nlC0bLTUUVs/v-deo.html He's terse as hell since he knew this already, but it shows it there. Incidentally he is the inventor of the R-Hop.
What I've read on the wide bore it's a diminishing results deal where you can get the max range from the wide bore but it is more money and effort to get a maybe a 50ft edge over tight bore
One question. Did you keep the FPS the same between tests? If you tested a tightbore PDI shooting 400 and swapped barrels to a widebore shooting 360fps (due to air loss), wouldn't that only show a weaker widebore gun vs a gun with a tightbore shooting hotter?
Good test but I wish your outdoor shooting was also to take the variable of the shooters body being moved by the wind, his trigger pull, and other bio mechanics.
I'm using an orga 6.13mm magnus barrel with a maple leaf r hop bucking and a Maxx hop up in my inferno gen 2 build and it works great. 433mm barrel at around 100psi two 110psi
Have you directly compared the wide vote vs normal bore? I feel like a lot of the trade offs of using a wide bore are mitigated by having a HPA system, so re-exploring this for a HPA sniper (concluded 6.03 or so was best for spring builds). Thanks
@rdb9936 man that comment was along time ago. Since then I have had amazing results with the lambda 6.01mm stainless steal inner barrels, Maxx hop up unit and the maple leaf r hop bucking and super bucking.
I really liked this video, put together very nicely, I really like how you presented your data from the tests. Very interesting to find out that wide bore does not perform as well.
Really great vid. I really love the way you guys doing thing so scientifically. I still have some curious point though. Point 1. I read from somewhere that tight bore is more accurate up to certain range (40-50 meter?) but after that it lose accuracy while wide bore can maintain good grouping beyond that (up to 70-80 meter?). The reason given in those discussion is that because most air behind tight bore is behind the bullet (which is why tight bore also have higher FPS, imagine water hose when you make the end smaller with your finger) while the air in wide bore will form a cushion of air around BB, thus it need more air (and higher power to achieve same joules), which means it is suitable for system where you can get as much air as your want at the speed you want aka HPA system. Point 2. I'm very curious at the last result you shown on prommy delta strike. I'm a prommy fan (I know its kind of overprice), I live in Japan (0.98 joules limit by law and you will get arrest if police find out) and I own one of these delta strike barrel. Delta strike is extremely weird barrel in my oppinion. It has 2 parts head part where it form "triangle contact, BB will be in the exactly same place everytime when you chamber it" which is made of plastic, and the barrel part which is quality prommy barrel. You can see picture here www.evike.com/products/47704/. From this I form 2 hypothesis here. hypothesis 1. grouping (the one you measure in all your test) is based on where the BB is chambered in the barrel before it was shot. This is why in your test tight bore clearly beat wide bore. Because the BB position of tight bore is always the same while in Orga wide bore, BB can be slightly off the center but it still can maintain grouping by its "cushion of air" mechanic. hypothesis 2. if BB start at the exact same place everytime, "cusion of air" mechanic of wide bore is better at maintain grouping than tight bore at any range. By combining hypothesis 1 and 2, it can explain why prommy delta strike beat all other results. It provide a exact starting point (in description behind delta strike package mention that in "triangle contact" phase, the diameter is around 6.05 mm, not very tight but maybe good enough) and it also provide cushion of air mechanic due to the rest of the barrel is 6.20. What do you think about this, is these hypothesis possible ? ps. English is not my mother tongue, sorry for the mistake
I may be wrong but from what I've heard you need alot more power and/or bigger volume of air and using a bot action may work better due to the extra volume of air being expelled
LMAO, what? HPA is the best use case for wide bores, as your air volume is only limited by your tank as opposed to your cylinder volume, which is marginalised by things like AOE correction in AEGs. Yes, you can still volume an AEG for a wide bore, but it is easier to do so especially for longer wide bores with an HPA setup.
Ok, i know i am a bit late but i would like to see the setup and measurement methods better. I am also curious about how much the volume of air and the power of impulse would affect the results, as well as smoothness of the barrel. Would also be nice to see how much all of this affects to the speed of the bullet. But well, these would make the study really costly and time consuming and the objective would have to be modified so... These would be nice to haves alhough your work still has a good basic standpoint and i believe you were not in this in purpose of finding the universal best solution ever. Edit. I also think the amount of shot bullets should have been bigger so we could have seen a larger scale and if that "flat group" is an usual occurrence in that combination
very informative, well done ! and to talk about wide & tight, i'm running a vsr10 with a pdi 6.08 and it works pretty well : good grouping and good range (450fps with .2g) :D
These are different barells for different aplication for an age submachinegun like an mp5 ect its worth it but a sniper rifle the tighter the better. But do what works for YOU.
Very cool video. Awesome to see a manufacturer take on some of the popular myths associated with your product and do some actual research. I also agree with your methodology. Same parts, same gun, same shooter. Of course there will be variations when you mix hops and chambers etc but that's what experimentation is about. For those without funds to experiment, this video clears up at least one aspect of the process. One thing you could do better is a more empirical long range test to back up your data. Visual is one thing but paper don't lie. Great job!
it's funny. I was playing this weekend with a buddy that runs a prowin with promy purple and long orga. I am using a madbull accurate with a promy purple and a 6.03 long barrel. buddy was getting better accuracy and I was getting better range. both had 1.6j. In the end we we just merking on the field together. good team work proven overall the better results lol
FPS were always the same? I get lower FPS on widebore and need to compensate with stronger spring. What about the jule creep myth, the myth that widebore are better for heavies bbs?
I would like to see a Sugru mod of a tightbore, because the reason the delta strike got so good could just be because of the sugru mod, otherwise very good video.
How much fps can you lose on AEG with a Prommy Delta Strike? My gun shoots ~460 and iit's 2 years old now... FPS didn't drop wiith usage (i guess that is good) but i don't want to tear apart gearbox just to get lower fps. Thinking about 6.20 barrel. Would i get close to 400fps?
so i have a lancer tactical m240B, with a *wolverine inferno* installed. PROBLEM: it is terribly innacurate. I originally replaced the inner barrel and hopup bucking based on past experience with HPA wolverine SAW builds. New barrel: Lonex 6.03 550mm. swabbed clean as soon as i got it since it was gunked up from the factory hopup bucking: G&G green, i have the best luck with these from my other wolverine builds. After seeing that i could not hit the broadside of a barn with the 6.03, i figured it was because the BBs were not getting the proper air flow for stabilization, so i changed the barrel back to the stock 6.05, cleaned it out and installed it still using the G&G bucking. Now i created an even bigger problem. Now i hit an area roughly the size of the state of Pennsylvania before i hit my target, with BBs flying to the left and right, some way over hop than others, even when the hopup is set to zero. What causes this??? Is the barrel too long for HPA? 550 mm barrel too long for accurate fire? Its not double feeding, i fixed that issue early on. im running at roughly 80-90 PSI which according to my field brings me to about 370 FPS with .20G..
"If you shoot at the same velocity, bore size makes no difference in range" oh lol obviously you geniuses :D The argument is that bore size affects velocity, which directly impacts your range. In theory, the tighter the bore size the better the air seal around the bb inside of the barrel should be which means that the same amount of air behind the bb will accelerate it more over the length of the barrel whereas with a wide bore some of the air escapes around the bb and does not contribute to acceleration. No idea why people believe it should be the other way round.
There isn't really any reason to pick this video apart! The test was fair and three results don't lie! Love these vids you do, keep up the great work :)
Uff you need enough airvolume for a widebore... Yes way more than for a normal barrel. Otherwise the Aircushion would colaps! That's why the longer barrel was even worse (even more distance for the bb to rattle around in the barrel/ even weaker Aircushion)
How can you bust the range parameter if you do not measure it ? The barrels you are testing are close in lenght for the "short length", but for the long versions, they are pretty diferent in size, so hard to conclude on that. I understand the cost of the test, and the time it takes. But for now i think that results are still unsufficient to bust anything. Maybe you should try to perform new experiments from time to time, and share the rayleigh distribution you get at several ranges / FPS / Barrel length / hop up configuration. If you provide enough points, i will be glad to compute a model :D .Thanks for the results and the test, it is interresting.
So what this says is that widebores are really not that great and nor is a very tight tightbore. This is why I use a 6.03 barrel. Always gotten fantastic results.
Nope. This says that giving the same Joules output, widebores are not that great. Which I absolutely agree. But the catch is that widebores, and specially Orgas, are sorta designed to creep energy like crazy, as they are meant to require overvolume to achieve the same FPS output (which is proven to cause joule creep when using heavier bbs than the ones you chronoed with, specially in shorter barrels) and be fitted with straight buckings (no internal mound) with flat nubs, which lets a lot of air scape above the bb when the hop is set to zero for chronoing, while greatly increasing the FPS when setting it to the playing level. There's a reason you'll always see R-hops or flat hops used togheter with widebores, and that's to get ridiculous amounts of energy creep. which obviously translate into greater range and less dispersion at shorter ranges. Widebores and anything-hop, like any miraculous hop and/or inner solutions, are just intentional joule creepers, whatever the mumbo-jumbo the manufacturer claims to justify them. You can't cheat Physics, so as soon as you compare them providing the same Joules output, all the magic suddenly dissapears. At the end of the day, given the same Joules, the best performing barrels are just those that have greater quality (internal surface, inner diameter consistency, straightness), whatever the bore.
Did you tweak the HPA settings to give the WBB more gas volume? Because there's no reason for the longer WBB not to perform at least as good as the shorter WBB. Did you chrono to make sure they are all shooting the same FPS? If they weren't then you didn't have enough gas volume with the WBB. Personally I noticed a small improvement going from TBB to WBB on my GBBR, but I didn't conduct any scientific tests, don't have the indoor range, plus too many variables with GBBRs.
hey bud, need help. i have a wolverine hydra svd debating wether i should get a 6.01 or keep my 6.05 wide bore i dont have accuraccy but got 250+ft range.. all opinions matter lol
Really nice video! But I was wondering, How much does a wide bore lower my FPS? I want to use a wide bore to decrease my FPS when using a stronger spring in order to use an 11.1 on my over-spinning AEG.
This is waaaay too late but for posterity: With a wide bore, a bunch of the air from your piston slips past the BB in the barrel instead of pushing it, which means it's not contributing to the BB's acceleration. Whereas with the tight bore, nearly all of the air presses against the BB, accelerating it much more. The wide bore basically creates "waste". Though some of the theories about wide bore's accuracy are based on the Bernoulli effect, where a moving fluid pulls nearby objects to it. This would theoretically hold the BB in the center of the barrel (making it more accurate) because whenever the BB was too far off to one side, there would be more air passing by on the other side, meaning stronger Bernoulli effect, so it balances out. If that's the case, then the air isn't completely wasted, just not pushing your BB forward.
Love your work guys! However I have one major concern. How did you compare the results? Did you calculate variance and mean distance from the target? Can you share the data?
I honestly think it's just all personal opinion on who think what's better I could say right bore is better you might say wide bore is better but it's like you said there's plenty of different variations you can go with to make it better in your eyes
Hmm very intressting results , contradicts my experiance (SMP + 485 6.08 VS Inferno + 500 6.23) Mostly i noticed that i get better results widebore+ heavy BB's (0.36 and up at atleas 360 FPS). But this is certainly very intressting and as a test this was wel constructed and wel executed. 1 point of content is the FPS varianceon the widebore seems larger then with normal/tightbore in my experiance .Was this a issue here? For a good test you have +- 3 to 5 FPS variance on both the tight and widebore then this would provide a fairer test in mij opnion. I'd like to see this included in futured tests as a datapoint. For example if the FPS differance is 10 or more between shots then this greatly effects grouping.(atleast thats my experiance with my sniper rifle) Keep up the good work!! P.S would love to see a video on how to get the Wolverine systems quieter as mine are very loud ( altough in FPS around the +-5 FPS variance mark).
It's a valid point that we could have included that. Since this was intended as not just technical study but one packaged in a way most people can stomach it, we didn't include some details. All set ups were shooting +-2-3 FPS for the most part. Some might have been slightly looser, but no major variations.
Ah ok , that makes it even more intresting. I think it just might be the Hopup on my widebore setup as you've stated in the video. Time to buid a same lenght tightbore DMR to match my widebore DMR. I feel a lot of testing comming up .
Also keep in mind, in order to make this study digestible by the average consumer we haven't included tests at 1J, 1.2J, 1.4J, 1.6J, 1.8J, 2J.... We also didn't test with different bb weights etc. It would end up taking an hour to get through the results and no one would watch it. There may be some inflection point at which the WB has an advantage. We haven't found it yet though.
Great video guys. I would have liked to see the the shots I sets of 10 with best group worst group and average group thrown into the analysis. I do a lot of competitive shooting and reloading ands thats how i really sort out the good from the great. Thank you, make more stuff like this.
did you clean the barrels before the test...lol... nice to see a difference between a shorter and longer barrel... be it small there is a difference... goes to show still as its been said from the start that a well tuned hop up system is the only real thing you need to look at when going for range and accuracy...as seems to be true when you done the sugru test... so the basis to take away from this is... put whatever you want to play with in your gun and use it and be happy because your never going to really be able to tell a difference... im betting if you took the time to sugru all those barrels and done a test there would be hardly a hair between them...
Interesting video,like it. So,now I have PDI 6.08,ER-hoped 469 mm inner barrel in 2 Joules setting(cca.475 FPS) and I have maybe 3 meters better range(0.40g BB's) than I have with 6.03,363mm barrel with 1.5 Joules setting(0.30g BB's). Damn. Not really worth it. Wish I've seen this video before.
just missing some details as in: which range tested, which fps, psi? Did the psi stay the same when the barrels where switched? Wide bore starts shining way more when the bb weight is increased, throw in some .36s or .40s in the test and see what happens, widebore will start to get more joule creep advantage
Wolverine Airsoft i know that as i am a fan of the show. Used in the alkatraz episode. Wondered what the name is so i can find it. Will keep on looking.
UA-cam needs more videos like that one
indeed
oh father hello
Bro why all the big you tubers commenting on this video 😂
100%
Not gonna like the comment because it is at the perfect number.
FINALLY SOMEONE DID PROPER TESTING!!
Thank you guys!! No ego, no heresay, just good solid small sample study.
Barell volume should presizely correspond portion of air! ! !
Otherwise you will lost accuracy.
Do not see FPS, because wide bore needs much more air.
And need another portion of air, because volume of barrel different..
Fps drop can help to understand that the portion of air not enough.
PS\\
Do not see real hits to paper targets, only pictures from photoshop and bla bla.
Wasted.
Any tester could get any results.
Cheat with, bb quality, barell clearness, numb and houp up proper installation.
How they are all different length barrels..
Great series and very informative! Really shedding light on the misconceptions of the different barrel diameters and lengths.
what barrel are you using in your bolt? i just got mine in and wondering if i should go with pdi 6.01 or 6.05 in the vsr 10
Using a Prometheus 6.03
69 likes
There is an inherent flaw in your testing. You cant just swap the barrel and retest. You need to adjust the air for the same joule output. Widebores only perform with an appropriately calibrated amount of air.
6.03 generally produces the happy medium. I have used nothing more or less than a 6.03 with great results. Anything smaller increases your chances of jamming and the bb has more chance of contacting the inside of the barrel causing more friction to the bb and thusly affecting its flight path and causing the bb to lose distance due to velocity loss coming out of the barrel. anything more will produce unpredictable results without excessive fine tuning. keeping a slight air cushion with the 6.03 keeps the tolerances smaller and not having as much friction in the barrel with the bb, this equates to good distance and good accuracy. i would have liked to seen a test with 6.03 since anything 6.05 and smaller is considered tightbore.
As I've always said quality of bore matters most. A good brand is above and beyond the most important thing. A stock CYMA barrel will be total crap compared to say a madbull, or the better PDI, Orga, or EdGI barrels. Depending on your gun, you might need the tightbore for the better air efficiency (lower PSI) or a widebore if your setup is too efficient and your PSI has to be set too low to meet field requirements but causes the system to not function. Quality > Bore > Length
Absolutely. Needing to get a lower output on a given system is a perfectly legitimate reason to go WB. And in some cases it might even mean running the higher pressure will improve your groupings. But that has to do with the pressure and how the system operates not the barrel itself.
@@riflemanuno1 So if the quality is equal and there is a field rule to limit fps, which one perform better?
Wide or tight?
I see lots of name-brand claims like this but seldom any data to back up the claims.
Quality > Bore > Length
hm... that's what she said too xD
She said same to me.
This is some great tech graphing that helps me visualize the results better.
This tracks with what a lot of Japanese and Korean airsofters are doing which is going with the 6.05mm longer barrels.
The quality of the bore is more important than its size...
What I understand from this, is that
1) The quality and cleanliness of the barrel is so much more important than anything else.
2) You generally want a happy medium, so around 6,03 JUST to increase your fps - since everything else is exactly the same
3) Now that your fps are higher, you can lift a heavier bb, giving you more range
4) The barrel is generally better to be of a default size - not too small, not too big.
I could be wrong, but that's what I understood.
Thank you very much guys. Found your video again after a year and helped me again.
Loved it!!
AirsoftTech23 well hello
nice job on consistency. I applaud you as most people use different hop ups and buckings, etc.
Awesome to see someone put in the effort actually test this stuff. Real engineering. Thank you!
It would be great to make a new video about this with the MTW and some types of barrels and buckings!
This was a very well performed test
Nice S10
NPC Number Four Million Seven thanks mate
Interesting to see someone testing back to back. It would be good if you measured the bore diameters of the barrels though as they are not always as claimed sometimes buy significant amounts.
Video proves what Ive always thought, that the hop mods you do to the barrel are practically the only way to drastically change performance from a barrel.
Very interesting and many variables controled - good job.
I am lost on the range question because I did not understand when and how did you test range.
Good stuff rich, liked the style. VERRRY informative. Data speaks!
My best m4 style accuracy and CONSISTENCY has come from PDI 6.03-6.05 at around 400mm..
I use S hop...too lazy to Rhop....I would rather do 6 S hops than one Rhop come to think of it! I use a flat nub in an element or Prowin hopup...The element getting the nod in a HPA build of course. Each gun has a preferred bucking...I experiment to find what the gun/bb combo likes best. I rarely shoot anything under a .3 these days
I have never seen a 623 Orta shoot super well.
My two bits
Hi guys. It wouldnt cost too much to have a smoothbore glass tube made to your sizes and highly polished internally so you can film the bb path with a high speed camera. It would be good to see the theories in effect.
Apparently yes, since Airsoft Mechanics Forums have been pushing the bb rides the top theory for years now. Recently Hunterseeker5 used a dye and cut a barrel open to show that bbs do ride the top and do NOT bounce around. ua-cam.com/video/nlC0bLTUUVs/v-deo.html He's terse as hell since he knew this already, but it shows it there. Incidentally he is the inventor of the R-Hop.
What I've read on the wide bore it's a diminishing results deal where you can get the max range from the wide bore but it is more money and effort to get a maybe a 50ft edge over tight bore
One question. Did you keep the FPS the same between tests?
If you tested a tightbore PDI shooting 400 and swapped barrels to a widebore shooting 360fps (due to air loss), wouldn't that only show a weaker widebore gun vs a gun with a tightbore shooting hotter?
He be Rollin down the street he be Rollin to the beat watch him to suit wadddup DAT BOI
Good test but I wish your outdoor shooting was also to take the variable of the shooters body being moved by the wind, his trigger pull, and other bio mechanics.
I'm using an orga 6.13mm magnus barrel with a maple leaf r hop bucking and a Maxx hop up in my inferno gen 2 build and it works great. 433mm barrel at around 100psi two 110psi
Have you directly compared the wide vote vs normal bore? I feel like a lot of the trade offs of using a wide bore are mitigated by having a HPA system, so re-exploring this for a HPA sniper (concluded 6.03 or so was best for spring builds). Thanks
@rdb9936 man that comment was along time ago. Since then I have had amazing results with the lambda 6.01mm stainless steal inner barrels, Maxx hop up unit and the maple leaf r hop bucking and super bucking.
@@jordancook5171 oh nice! Are they the old rubber maple leafs or new 2021 or 2023 silicon ones? Thanks
@rdb9936 it's the new ones man.
I really liked this video, put together very nicely, I really like how you presented your data from the tests. Very interesting to find out that wide bore does not perform as well.
Wide before is ment to be used with a higher fps spring to allow for fps loss to air cushion.
I've been looking for this video everywhere.
Really great vid. I really love the way you guys doing thing so scientifically.
I still have some curious point though.
Point 1. I read from somewhere that tight bore is more accurate up to certain range (40-50 meter?) but after that it lose accuracy while wide bore can maintain good grouping beyond that (up to 70-80 meter?).
The reason given in those discussion is that because most air behind tight bore is behind the bullet (which is why tight bore also have higher FPS, imagine water hose when you make the end smaller with your finger) while the air in wide bore will form a cushion of air around BB, thus it need more air (and higher power to achieve same joules), which means it is suitable for system where you can get as much air as your want at the speed you want aka HPA system.
Point 2. I'm very curious at the last result you shown on prommy delta strike. I'm a prommy fan (I know its kind of overprice), I live in Japan (0.98 joules limit by law and you will get arrest if police find out) and I own one of these delta strike barrel. Delta strike is extremely weird barrel in my oppinion. It has 2 parts head part where it form "triangle contact, BB will be in the exactly same place everytime when you chamber it" which is made of plastic, and the barrel part which is quality prommy barrel. You can see picture here www.evike.com/products/47704/.
From this I form 2 hypothesis here.
hypothesis 1. grouping (the one you measure in all your test) is based on where the BB is chambered in the barrel before it was shot. This is why in your test tight bore clearly beat wide bore. Because the BB position of tight bore is always the same while in Orga wide bore, BB can be slightly off the center but it still can maintain grouping by its "cushion of air" mechanic.
hypothesis 2. if BB start at the exact same place everytime, "cusion of air" mechanic of wide bore is better at maintain grouping than tight bore at any range.
By combining hypothesis 1 and 2, it can explain why prommy delta strike beat all other results. It provide a exact starting point (in description behind delta strike package mention that in "triangle contact" phase, the diameter is around 6.05 mm, not very tight but maybe good enough) and it also provide cushion of air mechanic due to the rest of the barrel is 6.20.
What do you think about this, is these hypothesis possible ?
ps. English is not my mother tongue, sorry for the mistake
I may be wrong but from what I've heard you need alot more power and/or bigger volume of air and using a bot action may work better due to the extra volume of air being expelled
Tai Pearson exactly, using hpa isnt that good for wide bores
LMAO, what? HPA is the best use case for wide bores, as your air volume is only limited by your tank as opposed to your cylinder volume, which is marginalised by things like AOE correction in AEGs. Yes, you can still volume an AEG for a wide bore, but it is easier to do so especially for longer wide bores with an HPA setup.
Why has this not been done before!!!
I have a Krytac trident mk2 crb and I want to upgrade accuracy. Shooting at 330 to 340fps using 6.05 brass inner barrel. What should I get?
Would you be willing to throw the screenshots up on Imgur or somewhere for quick reference? Thank you!
Ok, i know i am a bit late but i would like to see the setup and measurement methods better.
I am also curious about how much the volume of air and the power of impulse would affect the results, as well as smoothness of the barrel.
Would also be nice to see how much all of this affects to the speed of the bullet.
But well, these would make the study really costly and time consuming and the objective would have to be modified so... These would be nice to haves alhough your work still has a good basic standpoint and i believe you were not in this in purpose of finding the universal best solution ever.
Edit. I also think the amount of shot bullets should have been bigger so we could have seen a larger scale and if that "flat group" is an usual occurrence in that combination
very informative, well done ! and to talk about wide & tight, i'm running a vsr10 with a pdi 6.08 and it works pretty well : good grouping and good range (450fps with .2g) :D
Did you compensate the muzzle velosity for wide bore?? If you use wide bore the fps fall down much more.
These are different barells for different aplication for an age submachinegun like an mp5 ect its worth it but a sniper rifle the tighter the better. But do what works for YOU.
Very cool video. Awesome to see a manufacturer take on some of the popular myths associated with your product and do some actual research. I also agree with your methodology. Same parts, same gun, same shooter. Of course there will be variations when you mix hops and chambers etc but that's what experimentation is about. For those without funds to experiment, this video clears up at least one aspect of the process. One thing you could do better is a more empirical long range test to back up your data. Visual is one thing but paper don't lie. Great job!
85ft = 25meters ? Really ? the test should take place at at least 50 meters
it's funny. I was playing this weekend with a buddy that runs a prowin with promy purple and long orga. I am using a madbull accurate with a promy purple and a 6.03 long barrel. buddy was getting better accuracy and I was getting better range. both had 1.6j. In the end we we just merking on the field together. good team work proven overall the better results lol
FPS were always the same? I get lower FPS on widebore and need to compensate with stronger spring.
What about the jule creep myth, the myth that widebore are better for heavies bbs?
Im curious on it too. I want to know whether he changed the PSI to compensate the muzzle velocity for wide bore.
Love the info keep it coming guys, just ordered my inferno gen 2 gonna drop it in my ics tubular m4! Would really like to see a complete ics install?
I would like to see a Sugru mod of a tightbore, because the reason the delta strike got so good could just be because of the sugru mod, otherwise very good video.
props on using mythbusters music!
If you have to change the hopup rubber for that grouping...then the grouping is because of the hop...not the barrel.
How much fps can you lose on AEG with a Prommy Delta Strike? My gun shoots ~460 and iit's 2 years old now... FPS didn't drop wiith usage (i guess that is good) but i don't want to tear apart gearbox just to get lower fps. Thinking about 6.20 barrel. Would i get close to 400fps?
so i have a lancer tactical m240B, with a *wolverine inferno* installed.
PROBLEM: it is terribly innacurate. I originally replaced the inner barrel and hopup bucking based on past experience with HPA wolverine SAW builds.
New barrel: Lonex 6.03 550mm. swabbed clean as soon as i got it since it was gunked up from the factory
hopup bucking: G&G green, i have the best luck with these from my other wolverine builds.
After seeing that i could not hit the broadside of a barn with the 6.03, i figured it was because the BBs were not getting the proper air flow for stabilization, so i changed the barrel back to the stock 6.05, cleaned it out and installed it still using the G&G bucking. Now i created an even bigger problem. Now i hit an area roughly the size of the state of Pennsylvania before i hit my target, with BBs flying to the left and right, some way over hop than others, even when the hopup is set to zero. What causes this??? Is the barrel too long for HPA? 550 mm barrel too long for accurate fire? Its not double feeding, i fixed that issue early on. im running at roughly 80-90 PSI which according to my field brings me to about 370 FPS with .20G..
"If you shoot at the same velocity, bore size makes no difference in range" oh lol obviously you geniuses :D
The argument is that bore size affects velocity, which directly impacts your range. In theory, the tighter the bore size the better the air seal around the bb inside of the barrel should be which means that the same amount of air behind the bb will accelerate it more over the length of the barrel whereas with a wide bore some of the air escapes around the bb and does not contribute to acceleration. No idea why people believe it should be the other way round.
Should test
6.01
6.03
6.05
6.08
Those are the standard barrels used in airsoft
Great work on this, thank you so much for this video.
There isn't really any reason to pick this video apart! The test was fair and three results don't lie! Love these vids you do, keep up the great work :)
Uff you need enough airvolume for a widebore... Yes way more than for a normal barrel. Otherwise the Aircushion would colaps! That's why the longer barrel was even worse (even more distance for the bb to rattle around in the barrel/ even weaker Aircushion)
Great video guys, very informative. Looking forward to more of these myth busting videos!
BBR Milsim vt87
Would love to see you guys do a crazy jet . Ive been using them and seem to see good results , but you guys have better controls then i do.
Would you guys mine to upload the test result data? Those data are really informative and will be great if we can download it. : D
Informative and entertaining. This helps a ton. Thanks guys!
can I use 6.05 barrel with an reaper gen 1 got some feeding issues and am trying tho fix it
A WHOLE LOT OF WORK FOR SUCH A VID , GREAT JOB , THAT'S WY I SUBSCRIBED
Hi guys!Nice vid!
Can you please tell me,what is the software that you used for presenting the grouping in the video?
Thanks!
I love this series guys! Please keep it going!
How can you bust the range parameter if you do not measure it ? The barrels you are testing are close in lenght for the "short length", but for the long versions, they are pretty diferent in size, so hard to conclude on that.
I understand the cost of the test, and the time it takes. But for now i think that results are still unsufficient to bust anything. Maybe you should try to perform new experiments from time to time, and share the rayleigh distribution you get at several ranges / FPS / Barrel length / hop up configuration.
If you provide enough points, i will be glad to compute a model :D .Thanks for the results and the test, it is interresting.
So what this says is that widebores are really not that great and nor is a very tight tightbore. This is why I use a 6.03 barrel. Always gotten fantastic results.
Pippin the differences between the 6.01 and the 6.1 were not statistically significant as noted in the video.
Nope. This says that giving the same Joules output, widebores are not that great. Which I absolutely agree.
But the catch is that widebores, and specially Orgas, are sorta designed to creep energy like crazy, as they are meant to require overvolume to achieve the same FPS output (which is proven to cause joule creep when using heavier bbs than the ones you chronoed with, specially in shorter barrels) and be fitted with straight buckings (no internal mound) with flat nubs, which lets a lot of air scape above the bb when the hop is set to zero for chronoing, while greatly increasing the FPS when setting it to the playing level.
There's a reason you'll always see R-hops or flat hops used togheter with widebores, and that's to get ridiculous amounts of energy creep. which obviously translate into greater range and less dispersion at shorter ranges.
Widebores and anything-hop, like any miraculous hop and/or inner solutions, are just intentional joule creepers, whatever the mumbo-jumbo the manufacturer claims to justify them. You can't cheat Physics, so as soon as you compare them providing the same Joules output, all the magic suddenly dissapears.
At the end of the day, given the same Joules, the best performing barrels are just those that have greater quality (internal surface, inner diameter consistency, straightness), whatever the bore.
Pippin I know this is based on HPA setups but a 6.01 on my EBR AEG made a HUGE difference from the 6.03.
Did you tweak the HPA settings to give the WBB more gas volume? Because there's no reason for the longer WBB not to perform at least as good as the shorter WBB. Did you chrono to make sure they are all shooting the same FPS? If they weren't then you didn't have enough gas volume with the WBB. Personally I noticed a small improvement going from TBB to WBB on my GBBR, but I didn't conduct any scientific tests, don't have the indoor range, plus too many variables with GBBRs.
hey bud, need help. i have a wolverine hydra svd debating wether i should get a 6.01 or keep my 6.05 wide bore i dont have accuraccy but got 250+ft range.. all opinions matter lol
Really nice video! But I was wondering, How much does a wide bore lower my FPS? I want to use a wide bore to decrease my FPS when using a stronger spring in order to use an 11.1 on my over-spinning AEG.
This is waaaay too late but for posterity: With a wide bore, a bunch of the air from your piston slips past the BB in the barrel instead of pushing it, which means it's not contributing to the BB's acceleration. Whereas with the tight bore, nearly all of the air presses against the BB, accelerating it much more.
The wide bore basically creates "waste". Though some of the theories about wide bore's accuracy are based on the Bernoulli effect, where a moving fluid pulls nearby objects to it. This would theoretically hold the BB in the center of the barrel (making it more accurate) because whenever the BB was too far off to one side, there would be more air passing by on the other side, meaning stronger Bernoulli effect, so it balances out. If that's the case, then the air isn't completely wasted, just not pushing your BB forward.
That was good information thanks.
Great video! No opinions, just data!
i have a question. Can i put the inferno in my AEG msk muskogen? what gen recomend me for do the conversion to HPA
Love your work guys!
However I have one major concern. How did you compare the results? Did you calculate variance and mean distance from the target? Can you share the data?
Which nub did you guys in combination with the reaps bucking? Thanksi!
Thank you thank you thank you for using a vise
Now i will test a L96 with Prometheus Wide Bore with Maple Leaf hop up rubber and Flat hop nub of the same brand will be interesting.
Awesome, thanks for the information, very helpful.
I'm not expert but wouldn't the air pressure keep the bb centered in the wide bore?
No
Jimmies shall be rustled!
I honestly think it's just all personal opinion on who think what's better I could say right bore is better you might say wide bore is better but it's like you said there's plenty of different variations you can go with to make it better in your eyes
Hmm very intressting results , contradicts my experiance (SMP + 485 6.08 VS Inferno + 500 6.23)
Mostly i noticed that i get better results widebore+ heavy BB's (0.36 and up at atleas 360 FPS).
But this is certainly very intressting and as a test this was wel constructed and wel executed.
1 point of content is the FPS varianceon the widebore seems larger then with normal/tightbore
in my experiance .Was this a issue here? For a good test you have +- 3 to 5 FPS variance on both the tight and widebore
then this would provide a fairer test in mij opnion. I'd like to see this included in futured tests as a datapoint.
For example if the FPS differance is 10 or more between shots then this greatly effects grouping.(atleast thats my experiance with my sniper rifle)
Keep up the good work!!
P.S would love to see a video on how to get the Wolverine systems quieter as mine are very loud ( altough in FPS around the +-5 FPS variance mark).
It's a valid point that we could have included that. Since this was intended as not just technical study but one packaged in a way most people can stomach it, we didn't include some details. All set ups were shooting +-2-3 FPS for the most part. Some might have been slightly looser, but no major variations.
Ah ok , that makes it even more intresting.
I think it just might be the Hopup on my widebore setup as you've stated in the video.
Time to buid a same lenght tightbore DMR to match my widebore DMR. I feel a lot of testing comming up .
Also keep in mind, in order to make this study digestible by the average consumer we haven't included tests at 1J, 1.2J, 1.4J, 1.6J, 1.8J, 2J.... We also didn't test with different bb weights etc. It would end up taking an hour to get through the results and no one would watch it. There may be some inflection point at which the WB has an advantage. We haven't found it yet though.
What did you find about R-Hop barrels vs. Non R-Hop?
I was almost starting to regret getting the short version of the cm16 😅
3:06 What's that song? 👀
Great video guys. I would have liked to see the the shots I sets of 10 with best group worst group and average group thrown into the analysis. I do a lot of competitive shooting and reloading ands thats how i really sort out the good from the great.
Thank you, make more stuff like this.
End of the story, I get a larger grouping with a 300mm tight bore than with a 300mm standard barrel? So, I guess I'll keep my standard barrel then.
So you get better efficiency and accuracy from the tighter bore
did you clean the barrels before the test...lol...
nice to see a difference between a shorter and longer barrel...
be it small there is a difference...
goes to show still as its been said from the start that a well tuned hop up system is the only real thing you need to look at when going for range and accuracy...as seems to be true when you done the sugru test...
so the basis to take away from this is...
put whatever you want to play with in your gun and use it and be happy because your never going to really be able to tell a difference...
im betting if you took the time to sugru all those barrels and done a test there would be hardly a hair between them...
+10 pnts for balls. Thanks, keep the science coming please!!!!
I never saw a video on Orga Ultra Tightbore 6.00mm inner barrel. Do anyone know where to find a review of it?
How much FPS was used?
Interesting video,like it. So,now I have PDI 6.08,ER-hoped 469 mm inner barrel in 2 Joules setting(cca.475 FPS) and I have maybe 3 meters better range(0.40g BB's) than I have with 6.03,363mm barrel with 1.5 Joules setting(0.30g BB's). Damn. Not really worth it. Wish I've seen this video before.
Holy fuck thats a brilliant video thank you so much!
but. between a 6.06 and 6.03?
hope to see more videos just like this one
Nice info !!! BTW. lort is a pretty good surmane, especially if you are Danish :)
Thanks for a great vid yet again! - Much love from Denmark :P
Great vid. De-bunks most of the rubbish that comes out of airsofters!
just missing some details as in: which range tested, which fps, psi? Did the psi stay the same when the barrels where switched? Wide bore starts shining way more when the bb weight is increased, throw in some .36s or .40s in the test and see what happens, widebore will start to get more joule creep advantage
Nevermind, already found it, 85 yards, but based on joule, not fps
love the grouping test
Can you do a brass vs aluminium vs stainless?
Really nice video, and a good test :) 👍
What is the song called that is played over the top of the video?
It is from the original Mythbusters show.
Wolverine Airsoft i know that as i am a fan of the show. Used in the alkatraz episode. Wondered what the name is so i can find it. Will keep on looking.
This is excellent stuff