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Slab-On-Grade INSULATED Foundation (NO Concrete?!) - Part 2
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- Опубліковано 10 гру 2020
- In this Video I’m visiting a House built two years ago by Builder Jake Bruton where he Insulated over Compacted Gravel, then floated the subfloor on top. It looks like a typical Slab On Grade foundation ,but in fact there is NO Concrete under your feet! I did a similar design on my house under construction and it was really cool to see how this house is performing two years later. Big thanks to Architect Steve Baczek who came up with this design!
Jake did a 4 part series with the details on this Slabless Slab Foundation here:
www.protradecraft.com/insulat...
Here’s a Fine Homebuilding article on this concept:
www.finehomebuilding.com/2019...
More of Jake on IG jake.bruton...
More of Jake on BSN buildshownetwork.com/go/jakeb...
Steve on IG stevenbacze...
Steve on BSN buildshownetwork.com/go/steve...
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I maintain a building from the 50's in Northern Alberta and it with built with the same idea. Concrete frame for exterior walls. packed dirt slab and then horizontal 2x6 on dirt with red oak flooring. It's been 70 years and it's as solid as the day it was put in. Unlike the addition in the 80's that's falling apart.
I'd have to wonder about the difference in quality of labor between the periods as well.
@@OneWildTurkey in all honesty there was poor and good quality Labour in both periods, they just didn't necessarily line up to both be on that house.
A man who will openly share his trade is also the same man who innovates his trade !
I built a house high up in the mountains of west Texas. 6200 feet elevation. Had to mix concrete on site as concrete trucks could not get up there. Perimeter concrete beam, laid foam on top of crushed volcanic rock, sand on top of foam, then brick floor. Great house.
I hope you remembered to seal the rock to the foam, it's a critical step to ensure that lava uplift doesn't occur.
That's really cool. Do you have a picture or video of the process?
@@danjimielson could not figure out how to insert a picture in the comments.
You can add a link to another website and upload to imgur or maybe even your UA-cam account I think allows picture upload now
Just when I think I figured Matt's builds out, he hits us with that S L A B L E S S S L A B.
Ikr. Just keeps getting better and more interesting.
lol
he might re remodel his current real remodel and get rid of the slab!
I have to rethink everything I know now. Blew my mind. Very cool.
He obviously didn't consider the possibility of Graboids. Not a safe house to be in!
Ha! You beat me to it!
I like it 👌
Finally a sensible objection
I think Limecrete would help a bit with the Graboid menace without as much CO2 impact as concrete.
Yeah i think the graboids will win
fantastic episode! This cutting-edge (for most contractors) information is what makes your channel shine. Thanks for spreading the word, AND pointing out that the concrete industry is a horrible greenhouse gas emitting industry. I'm currently working on detailing a full-basement foundation wall without concrete (using gabion baskets). I need to pass this by a structural engineer to determine its feasibility.
Jake always seems an outstanding builder - practical and budget-conscious but high-performance.
Probably my biggest concern in a 'concreteless slab' is differential settlement. All those pipe/conduit trenches require conscientious compactive effort so as to not see settlement 10-20 years down the line. We all see the poorly-compacted trenches in roadways and how they settle - even a fresh coat of asphalt will see the trench telegraph thru to the surface in a few weeks/months.
That sheepsfoot compactor seemed to be running on dry/sandy material - almost impossible to get compaction in granular soils with a sheepsfoot. A vibroplate is much more effective on granular material - sheepsfoot compactors are best on clayey soils. Key is to achieve near-optimum moisture to get best compaction.
This is a valid concern, unless they laid the pipes on virgin soil it could be a real problem.
I stopped what I was doing and really paid attention when the gentleman said that "concrete is really bad for the environment" Never would have thought, thank you for bringing that to light, God Bless
I lived next to concrete factories ... the smoke that comes out is unbelievable. It apparently mostly travels northwest, so you can be one mile south of the stacks in Midlothian and not really be affected by the pollution.
Matt, love the intro to today's video! Very cinematic, I even had to double check it was your video! Keep up the good work.
Yes his new intro was Essential Craftsmanesque.
love it. simplify, eliminate, minimize, save money. things don't need to be so complicated
Matt!! Your good at giving back, we appreciate your channel
Very cool! They have been doing that here in Sweden for a very long time. It now makes sense why they waterproof the heck out of bathrooms and laundry rooms. Thanks for a great educational video.
*Great video!* You are knocking it out of the park lately Matt.
I'm VERY interested in trying this for my pole frame house.
Great discussion! Thank you very much for your help!
Great execution Jake!!! - job very well done
I get chills when we talk about builders with this level of knowledge. Most builders around here don't even know what a blower door is. This guy is putting a lip on the utility room threshold to keep potential water from escaping.
This stuff can't be learned in any school. Only experience, years and dedication can lead to these results.
It’s all about the slabless slab house.
I really like the thought gone into the drywall sheet placement
I love it! A ground based heat pump would be easy with tjos setup as well. Pest, vermin, and moisture would be my concerns. Any feedback from Jake on how he addressed those concerns?
Crazy that I thought of this for my ADU purely to save money (smaller carbon footprint is a bonus) and it pops up into my feed 😬 and professionals explain all the details that I would have overlooked!
Glad to see this. TKS for sharing!
"Feel Better" lol. Matt thanks for making great videos. Keep on rocking.
From a person that has spent his life on water damage I just see disaster of a leak pops up
Yep my thoughts also
The soil will absorb the water so probably less chance of water damage
exactly, this is how we build houses in Belgium in de 50s and 60s, they all have water issues. we now always have a concrete slab or crawlbasement
cool idea with excellent execution. kudos
Great concept - thanks for sharing
I like the idea, and if the perimeter foundation wall is deep enough you shouldn’t have to worry about burrowing critters. But I live in a place with a high water table, lots of spring runoff, and earthquakes so I’d be wary of this. But I might use it for a small outbuilding or guest cabin to test the concept and minimize losses if it fails.
Jake "..and happy clients" Matt " Wow thats crazy"
That’s awesome! Seems like a great way to save money on the build cost!
The thumbnail for this video loops perfectly to look like Matt's endlessly shaking Jake's hand forever
Holy crap that's literally almost in my backyard! Welcome to CoMo!
This is a common practice to build a foundation in Europe since EPS was invented and it is called "floor on ground"
That’s not the same: you pour concrete on top of that EPS.
Is the EPS a water barrier?
@@johnfitbyfaithnet Not sure if all EPS is a water barrier, but some is made to work as a barrier. Typically from what I've seen hiring builders is they compact the sand / clay / rock, then put down a moisture barrier and EPS, then hydronic pipes or other heating then pour the slab.
@@johnfitbyfaithnet the water absorption rate is very low so in the floor system EPS will not transfer water to a higher layer of floor but you still need a vapor barier to prevent vapor to get into a floor system and to condense there . Another problem . When EPS is used in conjunction with wood is a fire hazard. I would put at least one inch of concrete over EPS or XPS just for safety's sake
Great video of out of the box thinking.
Steve B is my kinda architect... wish I could go work with him and learn. Great video very interesting.
Matt, great job awesome video
Here in sweden its actually mandated by code (in and laundryroom/mechanical or any room with the potential for a leak) to have a waterproof mambrane in/on the floor and have it connect up the bottom of the wall. Its a great way of reducing the risk of damage to the house in case of a leak :)
What kind of membrane material do you end up using? And how do you get the floor height to achieve that? I've been looking at floor trusses and they all warn against cutting into them, so I guess I need another layer above them that can be removed under bathrooms.
@@TrogdorBurnin8or nowadays the most used watertight membrane is a type of fullt welded plastic mat. Regarding the hight of the trusses, standard height in a floor system (stick framed) is 220mm, but to compensate and get the floor to be the same height in a "wetroom" we lower the height to 195mm and double the amount of trusses in the room. So usually a bathroom floor is built by having 195mm beams on 300mm OC, 22mm subfloor, then 30mm of fiber reinforced concrete/filler, then the watertight membrane, then grout and tile.
wow....very interesting concept!!
Cool vid yet again
I think the 4 corners could be bored for concrete legs on the small perimeter slab to increase load strength. And yeh thats way more eco friendly. Here in california you could have huge concrete repairs and then some in an earthquake. Go 2-3 layers of foam to absorb shock and it may help in a quake. I like it.
I love your show , highly informative. Im a licensed electrical contractor in the Bay Area.
6 more episodes and I will be a youtube qualified builder😁
Right who needs a house built inspired by the build network
So interesting to see different build strategies in different parts of the country. Just finished my house foundation with 9 foot walls and my shop had 6 foot walls. All to get below frost line.
I have a compacted soil/sand slab up in the foothills of the front range. Stable since 1979, it seems
@@marcob1729 Yes my old cabin has something similar, at roughly 7900ft that seems fine as well. Not like the expanding soil along the front range, which is why my local engineer recommended going deeper.
@@5280Woodworking Ah, I see. Yea, I think the fact that we have ~3 inches op top soil and then a bed of decomposed granite really helps!
Three points to follow to prevent cracks in the sheetrock he mentioned: "following humidity, strapping the ceiling and following the Advantec detail around the perimeter." I wish these three items were more specifically mentioned. Could you go through these details on some episode?
hvac system has a humidifier in it, strapping the ceiling means they put 2x4 purlins across the trusses which settle less so less cracking of drywall latter. advantec details means you need to have a 1/4" gap to allow for expansion between wall and floor.
Another great one! Like 👍
Very cool and very interested in this
Super cool house. That's what and how I would have done it. Right now I'm just building a small off-grid, on sand series of additions around the cargo container core where I am squatting on land I don't own in the high desert of So Cal. Cold winters and hot summers. Using lumber I reclaimed from pot farms that cashed in on their crop and bugged out leaving everything expendable behind. Mostly 2X6 and OSB. I have managed to get ahold of some 20 foot long 4X6 beams and some 20 foot 2X4's. So if you're ever visiting Edwards AFB, I am about 5 miles south of the southern perimeter looking for UFO's.
Builder: "Lets take out the slab of concrete your house sits on."
Owner: "I'm going to save a lot of money lets do it!"
Builder: "It actually ended up costing the same."
Owner: "Pikachu face."
Builder: "Yeah, this was a learning curve for us, so we spent a lot on labor."
Owner: "Oh, okay... I can write that off as a training expense then?"
I'm doing perimeter icf, compacted soil, 4 inches road base (NOT wetted but compacted) 5 inches gravel no fine, then 10 mil plastic taped, then 2 sheets styrofoam (the expensive stuff was unavailable) then 2 sheets t&g overlapped plywood glued & screwed. Earthen floor over half of it. Low Humidity Northern New Mexico & no worries.
Love all the videos on the Build Show! Have you ever been to new house builds in NYC? Do you recommend any builders in NYC?
Matt! That is my hometown!! Lol. I now am in Texas! Much better here! 😁. Oh, and I’m still waiting for an invitation to tint your office windows. 😁😁
Here in Serbia we used to have this as a cheaper option and most of our homes still have separated salab from the edges that are load bearing. Its only when you have basment when you have to make it monolitic so that there would be no watter comming in
What Advantech detail is he talking about to help prevent truss uplift?
exactly! I'm super curious about this too
They put a rip of advantech on top of the double top plate to make the air barrier continuous from the outside zip to the Sheetrock ceiling. The Sheetrock is run out to out no breaks. This is a fantastic detail but I am curious as to how this prevents truss lift on non load bearing interior partitions as well.
Interesting, but critters could be a problem. They pour rat slabs in crawl spaces for a reason.
Could probably be solved by using spray foam instead of foam board
@@aaronsvoboda5897 Foam board could have an anti pest component?
Possibly. It would be easier to fix a sewer problem than a slab.
@@aaronsvoboda5897 spray foam does not present a flat surface for the sub floor to rest on
I'd worry more about termites.
Guy is at home with a guest with his Stanley tape on his hip. RESPECT ✊
That's not his home dummy. He's just the contractor.
Hi Matt, Great Video.
I live in Europe and i am familiar with this method. The one question I have concerns a vapor barrier. Would you not want to have one somewhere between the ground and your OSB wooden floor covering? I know OSB is considered a vapor barrier but it not meant for levels of humidity that could transfer through from the ground. I saw a vapor barrier between the OSB and the hardwood floor but my concern is the duribility of subflooring itself. Look forward to your comments.
Greetings Matt and Jake! I am very thankful for these videos!!!! A customer wants a slabless slab home, ICF exterior walls, truss roof, geothermal, high performance home. According to the customer I am nearly the only option. As I have watched these videos over the years I have implemented as much as I could either in the home or in the conversations with customers, emphasizing structural integrity and high performance. This customer wants an ACH50 of .6. Harwood floors and some carpet. He wants to do the roof similarly as you did Matt on your home. If there are any other videos or advice you have for me, please respond to my message here! Thank you all for everything you do for us builders!
So concrete isnt eco but a huge house is fine. Got it.
Say the house was in a flood prone area, and said flood happens.... would it float?
I would put a step down into mechanical room since i had a sewer backup in mine with a floor drain in that room and similar doorsill and the blackwater got everywhere anyways and caused major damage causing a total renovation of drywall up 2 feet of soakingand flooring .
ended up better than it was before since previous rug install was homeowner done but still
seems cool, and is working so far. but would be more interested to see in 10 or 20 years.
I think it is important to note that the environmental benefits are cool, but if it ends out being a failure, the redo will have greater impact.
In ten years they will be wishing they poured a pad, all ground over times will shift. Have 50 year old homes that are slab on grade and pockets of soil have collapsed over time or had water run off under the pad causing supports for the home to shift. Now add this home that is just resting on foam pads
No matter how well they think they compacted it they will have soil shifting, moisture problems and floors rotting out. This has been tried in decades past and it doesbt work.
I have compacted earth as a slab in a house from '79, and there are no major issues other than the fact that it's uninsulated. Probably going to change that in some of the rooms soon
How would hot water heat integrate into the system? Is it possible to use the board (forget the name) that you clip tubing into it?
I like it about that water boiler, that always a nightmare..to be thinking about.
This is actually normal construction in many Scandinavian houses, because of the weather it’s mostly bare ground, insulated foam, concrete slab (most have floor heating) and then tile or wood floors
Very nice
Gophers, moles, other burrowing animals give it two thumbs up 👍👍
Hi Matt, I just subscribed to your channel. Great job! I am learning so much. What all around interior insulation would you recommend for a 10x20 wooden, metal roof Amish built shed? I am converting it into a home. I saw your video about not needing plastic insulation protection in walls, but is it a good idea for West Virginia? I am confused about rockwool vs " seriously thick foam". Thank you & keep up the good work.
What about termites, they can chew through foam. Is that not a problem is this area of the country or will they not eat the advantech?
I grew up in this area, and can assure you termites are a big problem. I’d be more worried about unforeseen ground water issues. In this part of the country, the best option is an unfinished basement, for a variety of reasons. I love efficiency, but not for the sake of hippie ideology at the expense of durability.
Are you suggesting that slab on grade houses don't have problems with termites?
Absolutely not. My humble opinion for areas like Missouri and other hot, high humidity areas is concrete walls, at least 18” high and uncovered. Best in my humble opinion is an unfinished basement. Then a wall and crawlspace. The rationale is to have the house up off the ground, and the ability to see the stem walls or basement walls. This is important to I spect for termite tunnels. Even then, if every precaution isn’t taken, they can crawl through cracks in concrete. Chlordane was effective as a soil treatment in this area, but has long been banned. It’s just better to have an open basement so sills and joists can be continually inspected. You can probably tell I’ve repaired a lot of terminate damage, and doing so is miserable and expensive for the homeowner.
What does the repair process for a broken pipe in the "slab" look like? How do they repair it after they cut through the 4 layers and dig up/disturb the dirt?
If you're going to all the trouble to bring in aggregate and leveling and compacting it, wouldn't it be simpler and less expense to just build a standard floor over a crawlspace? Add all the insulation you like at that point, and any plumbing / electrical / HVAC rework is a million times easier and cheaper.
Well they can aways just make a new hole they can just pop out the old floor
Stem walls and framed floors aren't going to be cheap.
Those screenings that he used can feel almost like concrete after it is compacted and dries out. Also screenings is a biproduct and is super cheap.
Compacted aggregate is a sound idea; however, I would have at least poured a couple of inches of concrete. There could or should have been a concrete pad in the center for support. That would have it much more structurally sound, important where I live in hurricane country. The main point is to insulate the perimeter. I used 12" aerated concrete block wall for a stem wall and my slab keeps warm in my gulf coast climate.
I wonder how much of a match that floor would be for ground boring animals and insects alike with the only real barrier a thin layer of poly which will brittle with age. I do appreciate saving concrete and bringing down carbon emissions. On the other hand, I think it is interesting when people make this point of conserving resources while at the same time building larger houses than what is necessary.
Plastic only gets brittle if you have it exposed to UV.
@@ferky123 Not true, I've been in many crawl spaces.
Well there is also 4 inches of foam so I don’t think the insects would be a problem but I still have my doubts
You don't clearly go into crawl spaces, foam breaks down especially with ground contact, moisture wicks up through and rots the wood. This home will be in trouble in 10 -15 years. This will cost more to rip out and pour a proper pad then the home is worth.. He isn't building for longevity, anyone who has worked on slab on grade homes knows material under the slab moves with water run off and ground shifting in unstable locationz. I had homes were massive pockets of material was missing under a concrete slab was washed away from water run off duento poor drainage and natural ground movement. Now add thise issues with a system resting on foam and plywood and only concrete being the external foundation
@@zack9912000 I’m assuming you weren’t replying to me I didn’t say anything about moisture control and I don’t like this either
Can I try a perimeter stem wall of treated lumber. Got to have the BEST rain run off control! Looks like the PEX runs to the room’s via the walls, or ceiling? Are there areas of the states that wouldn’t be a good idea for building? I’m going to learn a lot more about this !! Thanks to the ‘Build Show’. N.E.OH Bob
I saw a Holms on homes episode a decade or more ago which had a house in Alberta with a pressure treated wood, below grade, foundation. The explanation for why this was OK, was that the area was so dry, and the soils so porous, that below grade moisture wasn't an issue.
Wondering how this might differ when you want some radiant hydronic heating in the slab?
Here we normally put down a base (sand, rocks, clay) and compact it. Cover with a moisture barrier, EPS foam, then rebar and pex and fill it with concrete
looks like that would work very well
This is a cool project. I wonder if this process could be used to make a stand alone garage/Wood shop? Probably too much weight and movement.
Dirt floors. Forty years ago, I seem to remember a Realestate agent in North Carolina showing us a fixer upper house with dirt floors.
What about radon? Without any solid barrier it seems like the increased “open” ground contact could result in higher radon levels.
Does not having a concrete slab make it more susceptible to termites? Looking at a Florida build.
In the last video they were sealing on the foam. Speculating (but hoping for an official reply) ... I'm assuming they did something similar here against the concrete to serve as a physical barrier. Hopefully there's a back-up plan such as a chemical treatment.
love that house! But, what is stopping the bugs from burrowing up from the ground into the floor level?
stemwall to frost line should work. bur all comments on concret slab ever see one crack i had one was reparable but a pita
What brands of insulation would you consider. I have been to local box stores and other suppliers and everyone looks at me crazy when I ask if their insulation would work on a slab
Do you think this would work in areas with colder and weter weather where ground movement may be greater?
I’d be scared to buy this house. I’ll be curious to see how it performs in 5 years - expecting rising damp along the walls
Good question I would assume this would only have a chance in certain climates. I wouldn't put my money on it
@@SM7LArchitecture they have a full vapor seal preventing rising damp. but in my climate, it would always be wet under the floor.
Radon? Did you Insulated the soil outside the foundation? How deep does the winter frost go?
They didn't mention it, but I'm sure the limestone fill has a layer of poly underneath, just as you would with a proper slab.
@@brianwright9514 Radon barrier can be seen peaking up along the walls from under the EPS in several shot and at 4:35 you can see them sealing the poly to the wall.
@@brianwright9514 You're right. The first video in the 4-part series shows 6mil poly sheathing.
FRostline is 20". So I'm sure they have to go 24".
@@RonLeedy 20" frostline would be a dream, ours is 3" but my previous home was 5'...
Looks like a modular house; but I like the floor work.
THIS is what I've been looking for!
I always wonder if it's worth it to insulate a slab past r10. If you're trying to maintain a 70° room from 45-50° ground temp, i feel like you don't need much.
Generally no you're correct. I've only heard of radiant concrete pours going in states like MN put R10 below concrete because that delta temperature difference isn't saving you a lot.
However, if you're going to spend extra money someplace in the build, do it on foundations, basements, or underneath the slab because for the life of that house those things aren't changing easily. A penny saved is a penny earned. If energy costs keep rising, it may not be a bad idea to have R20 underneath your slab house.
3:44 I was thinking it was a little silly to build all of this and the end up with the wall plates below the top of the floor system. But then I realized you could tie the floor and wall insulation systems together making for a even tighter box.. Still not my cup of tea, maybe a good solution for finished basements.
How do you keep critters from destroying the "slab" I mean concrete is strong as hell but this is just compacted dirt essentially.
You don't.
the perimeter foundation, depending on depth, should kep them out. But here, they told me rats can be a real problem, so....could be a problem, those little fuckers like to dog and i had a war with them a few years ago. I won but just barely
He said something about basically compacted road base, not just plain dirt. Compacted base is VERY hard to dig through. You'd need much more than a shovel to start a hole in it.
@@jim.h I still don't know about this being the way to having a 100 year house. I'd rather pay for the piece of mind and have a slab poured with traditional rebar and not post tension.
Gravel with finely crushed gravel in it ("road base") after compaction is very tough to dig through even with metal tools.
These "slab less slabs" are more common on wood foundations.
Hi, it was impressive, however could you recommend the slabless for cold climate like minnesota?
All this but still put in a tank water heater? No geothermal heat pump?
Is this system only suitable for low moisture environments? What about higher elevation areas, like around the Appalachian highlands?
... It was at this moment that Matt realized the tremendous value post-frame construction could bring to the world :)
* Love your content Matt! Viewer from Colorado here: You’ve probably taught me more over the past four years than anyone else. Thank you for what you do!
Where are you finding these sheetrock pieces in full room sizes to eliminate joints in rooms?
Sorry if I missed it but where is moisture barrier? Just insulation board?
Matt: On the next episode, a roofless roof. See ya next time onnnnnn the build show 🤣
With bladeless levitating fans 😀
The emperors new house, it is totally invisible.
Would this be acceptable for a colder climate also? Zones 5 or 6?
That’s a genius idea, until you have a water leak, that is.
How did he deal with truss uplift?
Undisturbed soil within the building footprint? Wouldn’t you run the risk of movement in the soil? Especially in areas with high clay content? Wouldn’t it be better to engineer the soil to optimum compaction and moisture with good fill?
won't the floor sink/give in a bit over time?
Yards in my neighborhood have in the service trenches after 50 years - nearly all of them to some degree.
I live in Canada. Our climate is very cold. Would this be possible in this climate? ...and where do I find that plan? That’s a gorgeous house.