YAY! It's always lovely to see Carole! I'm in the camp of selective breeding. As to Evil can't create, I'm leaning towards the selective breeding isn't creation it's engineering. Now that might be a little too far sighted, but given that Tolkien is very blunt about the dangers as well as benefits of technology, I bet he wouldn't be too keen over the potential side effects of modern genetic manipulation/fast track evolution. I'm with the dragons just deciding to do their own. It hearkens back to the idea of that which is created with intelligence in this universe having free will as humans in our world do. XD “I will consume you” I love that description of life and fire. With as much as the continent/land moved /how much humans have been able to explore given other concerns... it would not surprise me if there were still flyin' round somewhere. Oh THAT idea of them being unbound spirits---I LOVE THIS> I want more on this knowledge. The whole thought thread you started there! SO here's a N00B out there question. If the second prophecy thing where Turin was supposed to come back and save the world... is it possible that his soul was bound to an object and then extracted? What would be the reverse of this necromancy theory even be called? XD Corrupted dwarves mixed with Eagles? Okay I love that thought too! You know, the craftsmanship of dwarves (which deserves so much more focus by the general public-I will always say) could also be an origin of hoarding tendencies. A longing for that which they cannot craft any longer. Annnd being as I type as I listen...bam. I love all this tinfoil! Nazgul being failed dragons. Oh this is just lovely. I am SO excited for your dad's cameo and completely here for your hiatus -I'm always pro-avoiding burnout. Gotta second the hype for Crimson Gods---was a good read. Oooh I love the idea of dragons being a part of the hobbits homesteading origin story! Kullervo shake fist at least he's not irritating in the same was as Lemminkäinen. Thanks as always for such a wonderful discussion!
Hi Dan :-) Karen is a cool bloke, she brought some refreshing ideas to the table. I think dragons really cannot be Maiar because Glaurung was 'bred' and he grew, matured, and died like any incarnate being, and he is presumably the ancestor of all dragons. If I recall correctly, Tolkien in one text also stepped back from the hypothesis that Eagles are Maiar since they seem to have offspring. That is not impossible for Maiar, but unusual. The idea that at least their physical form is based on a living creature works best for me. I like to imagine that Morgoth and Sauron abducted now forgotten creatures that were present during the Spring of Arda, he may have kept them in the deepest dungeons of Utumno and later Angband. It was also mentioned in said chapter that Melkor corrupted peaceful animals to beasts of horn and something else. You brought up a completely new idea for me by suggesting that some of the Houseless may have occupied dragon bodies. According to the Silmarillion, Eru summoned spirits from afar that would animate Ents and Eagles and some would remain bodiless - and these spirits from afar are a fascinating mystery of their own, are they akin to Ainur? - and I see the possibility that some would join Melkor-Morgoth, perhaps the body of a dragon would sweeten the deal. While I think their consciousness comes more directly from Morgoth (I wonder how he imbues animals with part of his spirit), your idea sounds cooler. Not sure if the One Ring is sentient, but I can see some parallels between that issue and the dragons - they can act autonomously from Morgoth and Sauron, but not independently, as their simple personality/programme is a subset of their respective creator's whole personality. Dragons especially, as Steven from The Red Book mentioned, are strikingly similar to Morgoth in the way they talk to and think of other beings. I think Morgoth sacrificed a great deal of his finite power to the creation of Glaurung and Ancalogon, as the appearance of both dragons is followed by an episode in which Morgoth takes a beating.
I have an idea that Morgoth was able to actually able to produce a dragon by somehow crossing a maia with some sort of large, reptilian creature. Perhaps even Sauron as he was well known for his abilities as a shapeshifter. In Norse mythology, Loki had such diverse children as Sleipnir, Hel, Jormungandr, and Fenrir. I don't know of anything in the Legendarium that actually supports my idea but it could explain how dragons are so powerful and intelligent.
YAY! It's always lovely to see Carole!
I'm in the camp of selective breeding. As to Evil can't create, I'm leaning towards the selective breeding isn't creation it's engineering. Now that might be a little too far sighted, but given that Tolkien is very blunt about the dangers as well as benefits of technology, I bet he wouldn't be too keen over the potential side effects of modern genetic manipulation/fast track evolution.
I'm with the dragons just deciding to do their own. It hearkens back to the idea of that which is created with intelligence in this universe having free will as humans in our world do. XD “I will consume you” I love that description of life and fire.
With as much as the continent/land moved /how much humans have been able to explore given other concerns... it would not surprise me if there were still flyin' round somewhere.
Oh THAT idea of them being unbound spirits---I LOVE THIS> I want more on this knowledge. The whole thought thread you started there! SO here's a N00B out there question. If the second prophecy thing where Turin was supposed to come back and save the world... is it possible that his soul was bound to an object and then extracted? What would be the reverse of this necromancy theory even be called? XD
Corrupted dwarves mixed with Eagles? Okay I love that thought too!
You know, the craftsmanship of dwarves (which deserves so much more focus by the general public-I will always say) could also be an origin of hoarding tendencies. A longing for that which they cannot craft any longer. Annnd being as I type as I listen...bam. I love all this tinfoil!
Nazgul being failed dragons. Oh this is just lovely.
I am SO excited for your dad's cameo and completely here for your hiatus -I'm always pro-avoiding burnout. Gotta second the hype for Crimson Gods---was a good read.
Oooh I love the idea of dragons being a part of the hobbits homesteading origin story!
Kullervo shake fist at least he's not irritating in the same was as Lemminkäinen.
Thanks as always for such a wonderful discussion!
Hey Dan, Carole. Really great upload and very entertaining colab.
Hi Dan :-) Karen is a cool bloke, she brought some refreshing ideas to the table.
I think dragons really cannot be Maiar because Glaurung was 'bred' and he grew, matured, and died like any incarnate being, and he is presumably the ancestor of all dragons. If I recall correctly, Tolkien in one text also stepped back from the hypothesis that Eagles are Maiar since they seem to have offspring. That is not impossible for Maiar, but unusual.
The idea that at least their physical form is based on a living creature works best for me. I like to imagine that Morgoth and Sauron abducted now forgotten creatures that were present during the Spring of Arda, he may have kept them in the deepest dungeons of Utumno and later Angband. It was also mentioned in said chapter that Melkor corrupted peaceful animals to beasts of horn and something else.
You brought up a completely new idea for me by suggesting that some of the Houseless may have occupied dragon bodies. According to the Silmarillion, Eru summoned spirits from afar that would animate Ents and Eagles and some would remain bodiless - and these spirits from afar are a fascinating mystery of their own, are they akin to Ainur? - and I see the possibility that some would join Melkor-Morgoth, perhaps the body of a dragon would sweeten the deal.
While I think their consciousness comes more directly from Morgoth (I wonder how he imbues animals with part of his spirit), your idea sounds cooler. Not sure if the One Ring is sentient, but I can see some parallels between that issue and the dragons - they can act autonomously from Morgoth and Sauron, but not independently, as their simple personality/programme is a subset of their respective creator's whole personality. Dragons especially, as Steven from The Red Book mentioned, are strikingly similar to Morgoth in the way they talk to and think of other beings. I think Morgoth sacrificed a great deal of his finite power to the creation of Glaurung and Ancalogon, as the appearance of both dragons is followed by an episode in which Morgoth takes a beating.
I have an idea that Morgoth was able to actually able to produce a dragon by somehow crossing a maia with some sort of large, reptilian creature. Perhaps even Sauron as he was well known for his abilities as a shapeshifter. In Norse mythology, Loki had such diverse children as Sleipnir, Hel, Jormungandr, and Fenrir. I don't know of anything in the Legendarium that actually supports my idea but it could explain how dragons are so powerful and intelligent.
Can I input a friendly reminder? Can you also make your livestreams accessible to those who are deaf? Captions would help so much. Thank you!
I don't know how to do this currently! I will see if I can look into it in the future.