@networknathan I would rather it that way, because then it would benefit other Southeastern passengers too, with the excess capacity at London Bridge used for other routes, hopefully.
Like any rail line it has occasional disruptions. I was once travelling east from Stratford. The train stayed above ground and went into Liverpool Street Station higher level. There were people on the train hoping to go to Heathrow. Sometimes the Picadilly Line is the fastest line running when there are delays out of Paddington.
Great vid! Visiting from Canada the Elizabeth line feels like riding something from the far future. The contrast with the tube for ride, noise, speed, ease of access, etc is shocking!
The UK is about 30 years behind France, certainly not far in the future. The Elizabeth line is just one line, Paris has a whole network of high speed metros, the RER trains. France has a whole network of high speed trains across the country. The UK has just one line with two stations and an amputated line in construction. Maybe when you come from America, the continent with public transport deserts, this feels like the future, but in Europe the UK is an underachiever and way behind other countries.
@@RealConstructor good point but don't sleep on the Overground and suburban National Rail services. Coverage is already pretty remarkable. It's the cross-city connections (the Lizzy line solves one) which need resolution.
I would add a small niggle. The whole crossrail project stopped the Greenford to Paddington services from running, turning the service into a Greenford-West Ealing service only. This happened years before the Elizabeth line opened (way behind schedule). It was an inconvenience to many for a number of years. Great video, well worth a subscribe!
The Greenford to Paddington services is one of those cursed things that "eats up capacity" that the railway company wants to use elsewhere. If you look at the Metropolitan Railway Company (that ended up as the Metropolitan Line on London Underground), they could not cope with supporting all the branchlines so they dumped the Stanmore branch of the Metropolitan Railway onto the Bakerloo Railway. And more recently the Stanmore branch of the Bakerloo Line was dumped onto the Jubilee Line. Now the Stanmore branch gets better service as part of the Jubilee Line than it ever got as a branch line. The interface between the Greenford branch and the West Coast Mainline out of Paddington was kind of clunky. And the people running trains out of Paddington wanted to focus on what we now call InterCity trains. The Greenford branch was never going to be good for Crossrail trains, so it got fobbed off. However it should be possible to get a better service up and down that line, without the trains needing to get into conflict with other trains. I think the best thing for the line would be extending the Central Line from Ealing Broadway to where the Greenford branch splits off from the mainline from Paddington. That would probably require some tunneling, but with the Greenford branch joining the other branch of the Central Line, I think that would make the Central Line more able to cope with problems on the line.
I live just over 10 minutes walk from Abbey Wood in neighbouring Belvedere. The Elizabeth Line is a major success for various reasons. It is way faser than the Southeastern/Thameslink trains getting into central London. If you stood inside Abbeywood station, see how many passengers use mainline platforms and those that use Elizabeth Line. I know it depends on the destination, but more passengers are using the Elizabeth Line. Also over the years/decades, Southeastern Trains have a much reduced service with Thameslink filling in. The proposals for the extension beyond Abbeywood are to 1. add new tracks and overhead power lines parrallel to the existing mainline tracks. 2. add the overhead power lines to existing tracks ( Thameslink trains are dual voltage and the Citybeam trains can have pantograghs fitted). This would cut out the old Networker trains. By extending to Dartford/Ebsfleet, it would ease the parking and traffic chaos around AbbeywoodBelvedere/Thamesmead.
Yeah I have also noticed that at Abbey wood. Unless you are wanting to get to London Bridge direct, most other journeys to central London are quicker via the Elizabeth Line. I think I am more in favour of building parallel running tracks past Abbey wood instead of just sticking trains on the old tracks.
@networknathan Over the years, Southeastern trains have cut back direct services, like trains on the Woolwich line only go to Cannon Street, meaning having to change for Charing Cross when heading for West End. The Elizabeth Line has fixed that and some. I like your videos, especially from someone from my background, though I am you parents generation.
Another scheme that has benefitted London and was far cheaper was reopening the Snow Hill tunnel in 1988, which allowed for north-south journeys through London. Prior to this, if you wanted to travel from Luton to Brighton, you had to change to the Underground at St Pancras and catch another train from Victoriia. Thameslink slashed journey times and opened up a new market for travel across London and the Souh East.
Yes it was incredibly worth it. So worth it in fact we need at least another 2 crossrails and arguably another Thameslink style service at the same time. We need to improve public transport in the areas around London badly. Crossrail 2 and connecting buses would transform my town of Cheshunt for the better massively.
Great video, Nathan. It's interesting that you mention the future plans for the Elizabeth Line. I think having a station at Silvertown would be a good idea, especially as North Woolwich (which used to have a station on the old North London Line, on which the Elizabeth Line follows track aligment) does not have a station. Maybe TfL feels Silvertown would be too close to Custom House.
Yes, definitely! For a journey through London, changing to and from the Elizabeth line is nicer than having to use the Tube all the way. I'm thinking specifically about between Liverpool Street or Stratford and Paddington or London Bridge.
Love your work fellah. Some YT’s should stick to subtitles but you’re succinct and to the point. Now back to the line - Harold Wood is my local station so I use it a lot, not during the rush hours though but having said that, it’s amazing how busy the ‘Lizzy’ can get even during the so called ‘quiet periods’. Seat comfort has always been its major down side and a lack of toilet facilities for many, although I believe most stations do have said facilities open at most times. I was also disappointed by the lack of ‘semi-fast’ - ‘fast’ trains East of the core but it is what it is and the rest of it makes up for one or two minor failings ‘IMO’. I’ve done it all now, apart from Hayes & H - Reading but will hopefully rectify that early in the New Year. Talking of which, the idea of direct trains between Shenfield and Reading appears to have been put on the back burner but to be honest, what is the point when all you have to do at Paddington is to get off one train, stand there for a couple of minutes at most, and hey presto here’s the Reading connection.
Would be nice to see 11-Car Class 345 trains on the Elizabeth Line to accommodate more extra passengers and other stations to have platforms extended to accommodate longer trains. Plus with 10 more Class 345s on order to increase more capacity on the Elizabeth Line. I do like the idea of how the Elizabeth Line will continue to expand more capacity and to increase more frequency since it came into service in May 2022.
Benefit cost ratios are kind of a blunt instrument to be using and many transport experts tend to argue that we shouldn't use them in the way we do. Like, that BCR for HS2 ignores the fact that the rest of the UK's theoretical high speed rail network would depend on that link - the BCR for original HS2 with routes to Manchester and to Leeds is higher because those sections are cheaper than the London-Birmingham section. With regard to crossrail, it's definitely worth it with about 1/6th of all GB rail journeys taking place on it. But I would say the lack of level boarding is a massive problem - mostly because it might genuinely be unfixable. The class 345s and central london stations are built at a higher and non-standard platform height. The legacy stations on GEML and GWML cannot be modified to Crossrail's custom height/horizontal position because it would conflict with freight and other national rail standard dimensions. Either you close the core for multiple years and rebuild every station while replacing the entire fleet (which is ofc impossibly disruptive, expensive and wasteful ) or you fully isolate elizabeth line services on either side which would make Greater Anglia and GWR services a lot less reliable because they don't have the resilience of using the slow lines if needed. (I was once on a GA train that switched the slow lines to get around a freight train.) I also don't think that it would be practicably possible in some areas. But if we don't do anything, more people will continue to break their foot at Ealing Broadway. TfL and DfT should have really avoided all this and just built the core stations to the standard platform height and procured trains for that height, nothing was gained from doing it this way
I travel to London a few times a year from D.C. and the Elizabeth Line is the most convenient and efficient line I've ridden in London (getting to and from the airport, I mean). A lot better than what we have here in the States.
You are spot on Nathan, trains are better than private cars. In addition, electric cars are very expensive per mile if you only do 2 or 3,000 miles a year and they add to congestion.
The current Elizabeth line west of Paddington is a world away from the local train services that ran between Reading and Paddington before electrification, when two and three coach class 165 Turbostars worked this route
I don’t know why that TfL wants 10 more Class 345s that will increase the capacity of trains on the Elizabeth Line to 80 9-Car trains. But I guess that 10 more Class 345s is probably needed to help with the overcrowding. And also there are options to extend the Elizabeth Line to Dartford and Gravesend. With the Class 345s to have DC shoebox conductors to operate on 750v 3rd Rail.
We really need to start getting rid of turd rail. It's very dangerous to engineering workers and can easily kill passengers. Let's start handing these railway lines over to Thameslink, as they can then maintain continuity of service as the overhead lines go in.
have heard no one mention how the EL has decompressed the load on the Piccadilly. That service could get terribly crowded from Heathrow to central London. The EL is much more traveler friendly but I do have a soft spot for my journeys from LHR to Zone 1. With Piccadilly due for its upgrade rolling stock, I assume these 2 years have been a great way to bridge to that upgrade and ease the overburdened line
the Elizabeth line is....just there. For me at least. I never have travelled on it, i mainly use Southern or Thameslink, and the occasional South Western Railway, mainly for their 455s but they do help me get to some places.
I want Crossrail 2 to come so that Crossrail can become the name for the purple roundel, while Elizabeth Line and a new name for Crossrail 2 would be the line names. Like with the Underground and now the Overground.
Frustratingly the Elizabeth line trains are built above the standard platform height, and the stations were designed around the trains, so the lizzy line will *never* be accessible…
Yes! People thought it would be underused, . It has regenerated Whitechapel, Farringdon, Tottenham Court Road, Paddington, Liverpool Street, Bond Street (Hanover Square) Canary Wharf, Woolwich in the tunnelled core. Ok woolwich is outer London but its still tunneled. You can invest on improving the step free access under successive government if we make the need to do it across battleground seats for Mps along the line. Btw Lizzy line can have a stop at Ladbroke Grove Sainsburys too. London City Airport could have been opened if the line was flopped maybe. As well as the Ebbsfleet or Gravesend extension possibly in the short future. Who knows even Chelmsford or Southend Airport 😂 Which Essex County Council would love but would scr*w up the capacity on the line. You can do a Staines and Brentford Docks extension from Southall. Not Lizzy line trains but Lizzy Line strengthens the business case too
Loved your breakdown of cost to benefit ratio. can you please provide a link of how these benefits are not just subjective and how they put an accurate figure to it?
Although I live hundreds of miles away, I spend a few weeks in London in the summer and often travel from Kensington to Burnham or Maidenhead. The journey is OK but. Firstly at Paddington I have to exit the tube to the street, then go down the escalators to the Elizabeth Line station. There I find the gates have no capability to read the e-ticket on my phone (Oyster does not go further than West Drayton). Likewise the new gates at Burnham do not read e-tickets either. Seems crazy.
You have a prime minister who doesn't care about level boarding who imposes trains that are too high for the standard platforms on the project. The other thing wrong with the crossrail trains (which have to talk to three different types of signalling system) is that Central Government refused to pay for the signalling systems to the east and west of London to be upgraded. All of that "trial running" and all of the extra time spent fiddling with the trains was because of false-economy measures.
It's not worth it for me. I travel between St Pancras and Heathrow Terminal 5. Given having to make an extra change at a minimum (to get on the Elizabeth line), and there only being 2 trains an hour to T5, which usually means a second change at T2, it's not really any faster than just jumping on the Piccadilly line. Sure the Elizabeth line is quieter, but it's also more expensive. The only time I use it is when there's disruption on the Piccadilly line.
There are two big problems with the Elizabeth line (1) no fast trains to Heathrow. and not a very frequent service there (2) no space for luggage for all the airport passengers - Even the Piccadilly line has luggage space
I think that this is partly because adventras are still being built. If it was an electrostar model in as good condition it would aesthetically look more dated just due to being an older design.
The Elizabeth was overbudget and late, and still a massive success. The fact we don't talk about it when discussing something like HS2, which could also be a massive success despite spiralling costs and delays, is either stupidity, or sheer malice
Crossrail seems to be very similar to Melbournes Metro Tunnel, from the trains, purpose, & influence on the wider network. You should look into comparing them when the Metro Tunnel opens either if you choose to travel to Australia or collab with a Melbourne focused rail UA-camr.
I am not a huge fan of some of the newly built stations. They look lovely, don't get me wrong, but the accesses are problematic and minimalistic. The platforms are long, but the accesses are mainly at their extremities. On top of that, the flow of people going in and out of the platforms is not segregated, which, altogether, creates congestion points. The problem is that they have not created an exchange level above these platforms, and you can feel that the stations were created where they managed to find enough space and were connected to the existing stations by a tiny thread. If you could go to Paris and ride the RER A, the central portion would be precisely what I would have envisaged for the Elizabeth line. Platforms are at the -2 level, and the -1 level is an exchange level where you find connecting trains and accesses to platforms. In that way, people going to the platforms use different accesses than before getting out, and they all meet at the larger -1 area.
Politics. It is advantageous to SWR to have a train stopped for faults, so they will try much harder to have a train stopped for a fault so they don't have to pay the leasing charge.
@@Titan604 And the only leased those because they thought the charge for the Siemens ones that wre==ere already in service was too high and took them off lease!!
Rolling stock operating companies are a stupid idea that leads to fare revenue being siphoned off into the bank accounts of investors, instead of being reinvested in the railways. ROSCO fees has led to profiteering ToCs trying to cram tons of Northerners onto tiny trains to save money. Just get the government to buy trains that are large enough for passengers to fit on them and give those trains to nationalised train operators that work for local government. And just get the government to extend shot platforms, so that longer trains can call there, when the trains start to get too overcrowded and outgrow the stations.
@@DavidShepheard I think they were just to ease the change of franchisees, as no selling on of stock would be needed at the end of a franchise. Just another flaw in the method of "privitisation" of the raliways that John Major came up with
Nah this train has slowed down my journey into central London. The Eastern section used to have peak hour services that skipped some stops, which was useful as Greater Anglia doesn't stop at Romford during peak hours, now all trains stop at all stations, meaning that its a long boring slow and crowded trip through all those awful places like Ilford, Forest Gate, Goodmayes etc. The reliability has gone down a lot more, trains now get affected by random delays or issues on the Western section and Signalling faults/issues that screws up the service.
my only problem with the liz line is they didn't use lower body trains. like you get with the flirts in East Anglia or Wales. this is part of why you don't have level boarding to trains outside of the core
I actually think we should be raising platforms instead. As someone with reduced mobility I'd like to be able to walk through the train without any internal raised sections😊
345s are decent trains but far from relisble units nor best units out there, that would go to the Desiro 444s age wise for how they’ve held up and of the new stock the 745/755s
All the benefits turn up in land value. This line has generated and sustains huge amounts of additional land value. The same applies to the Jubilee Line Extension. It is an ongoing gain. It is why we need to be getting rid of existing taxes and replacing them with a land value tax. There are many videos on this topic, including some on my own channel.
Infrastructure like this can be built outside of London (see Birmingham Curzon Street) and the amazing 777 program that Merseytravel used to make Liverpool's Merseyrail system more wheelchair friendly than London Underground in one swoop. But the main problem we have is MPs with an anti-rail attitude who argue that any rail investment has to be paid back by "increased passenger revenue." Crossrail was first proposed about 100 years before it was built. And Central Government cancelled Crossrail 2 after Crossrail 1 was delayed by bad geology underneath Bond Street station. There have been over twenty attempts to get the Bakerloo Line extended into South East London and those attempts keep getting blocked. (We actually had a little girl die in Lewisham from car pollution and Lewisham would have been one of the stops on the most recent plan to extend the Bakerloo Line.) The Jubilee Line Extension was only built because a private company involved in the Docklands Development Project promised to pay some of the costs. (That company then went bust, so the project ended up being government funded anyway.) The Northern Line Extension was paid for with finance from property developers. Wandsworth Council then let those property developers build less social housing and sell more luxury flats. The Thameslink 2000 program did not get built until 2020. Even in London, there is constant pushback against railway investment, unless there is oversight development involving luxury flats. And that attitude has to change. Firstly, we need to get rid of the InterCity trains that cause mixed-traffic problems on our rail network. That means rehabilitating HS2, restoring the Eastern Leg, and building the thing all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh. But it also means getting rid of all the stupid spur-branches that the original plan had and building through stations. Secondly, we need to repurpose the mainlines that InterCity trains are removed from and look at railway lines in cities that currently have a "parliamentary service" (i.e. intentionally bad service) and create local transport authorities similar to Merseytravel and Transport for London and use all the freed up capacity of getting rid of InterCity trains to create electrified rail networks that are resignaled to get as many passengers in and out of the suburbs around every city in the UK. Instead of coming up with business case requrements that only get stations built next to luxury flats, we need to do things like look at sports stadiums and ask: "If the World Cup Final match was played here, how many trains per hour do we need to get all the spectators to and from the stadium?" We need to look at NHS hospitals and give extra weighting to them having railway stations with a good service because: "if your relatives have an accident and are taken to the nearest hospital, you need to be able to get their easily" and because "we need hard-working NHS staff to be able to jump on a train and get home easily". We can easily do those things. We just have to redefine what "return on investment" means, and stop the naysayers from blocking projects.
@@eastlancsesteem Objectively speaking, you are wrong. The sheer number of people crowding onto the trains speaks volumes When I was at Paddington the other day, I had to let go any train that didn’t start there (pulling in empty) as it was that busy in the morning peak. That tells me there is a lot of demand for people to travel from GWML stations into the core section. Especially if the trains go to Canary Wharf
Love the Elizabeth Line. Let's have Crossrail 2 . Meanwhile London needs regular videos from Network Nathan!
I would imagine that Elizabeth Line trains would replace Southeastern/Thameslink trains instead of supplementing them.
Hopefully not but you are probably right
@networknathan I would rather it that way, because then it would benefit other Southeastern passengers too, with the excess capacity at London Bridge used for other routes, hopefully.
Nathan, you've excelled yourself. This is your best video yet - brilliant format. More!
thanks :)
me being on time for school for the majority of the 20+ day late streak on the lizzie line is one of my greatest achievements
looool
Like any rail line it has occasional disruptions. I was once travelling east from Stratford. The train stayed above ground and went into Liverpool Street Station higher level. There were people on the train hoping to go to Heathrow.
Sometimes the Picadilly Line is the fastest line running when there are delays out of Paddington.
I think most truly new lines wouldn’t have as many disruptions as the Lizz line though but then they wouldn’t run on old infrastructure.
☕hehe
Great vid! Visiting from Canada the Elizabeth line feels like riding something from the far future. The contrast with the tube for ride, noise, speed, ease of access, etc is shocking!
Wow from Canada. It is such a contrast isn't it. Hope have a splendid time in the UK Ben :)
The UK is about 30 years behind France, certainly not far in the future. The Elizabeth line is just one line, Paris has a whole network of high speed metros, the RER trains. France has a whole network of high speed trains across the country. The UK has just one line with two stations and an amputated line in construction. Maybe when you come from America, the continent with public transport deserts, this feels like the future, but in Europe the UK is an underachiever and way behind other countries.
@@RealConstructor good point but don't sleep on the Overground and suburban National Rail services. Coverage is already pretty remarkable. It's the cross-city connections (the Lizzy line solves one) which need resolution.
@@RealConstructor you're right. Had a chance to sample line 14 extension, RER E and the TGV on the same trip. Elizabeth line was still a highlight!
I would add a small niggle. The whole crossrail project stopped the Greenford to Paddington services from running, turning the service into a Greenford-West Ealing service only. This happened years before the Elizabeth line opened (way behind schedule). It was an inconvenience to many for a number of years. Great video, well worth a subscribe!
The Greenford to Paddington services is one of those cursed things that "eats up capacity" that the railway company wants to use elsewhere.
If you look at the Metropolitan Railway Company (that ended up as the Metropolitan Line on London Underground), they could not cope with supporting all the branchlines so they dumped the Stanmore branch of the Metropolitan Railway onto the Bakerloo Railway. And more recently the Stanmore branch of the Bakerloo Line was dumped onto the Jubilee Line. Now the Stanmore branch gets better service as part of the Jubilee Line than it ever got as a branch line.
The interface between the Greenford branch and the West Coast Mainline out of Paddington was kind of clunky. And the people running trains out of Paddington wanted to focus on what we now call InterCity trains. The Greenford branch was never going to be good for Crossrail trains, so it got fobbed off. However it should be possible to get a better service up and down that line, without the trains needing to get into conflict with other trains.
I think the best thing for the line would be extending the Central Line from Ealing Broadway to where the Greenford branch splits off from the mainline from Paddington. That would probably require some tunneling, but with the Greenford branch joining the other branch of the Central Line, I think that would make the Central Line more able to cope with problems on the line.
I live just over 10 minutes walk from Abbey Wood in neighbouring Belvedere. The Elizabeth Line is a major success for various reasons. It is way faser than the Southeastern/Thameslink trains getting into central London. If you stood inside Abbeywood station, see how many passengers use mainline platforms and those that use Elizabeth Line. I know it depends on the destination, but more passengers are using the Elizabeth Line. Also over the years/decades, Southeastern Trains have a much reduced service with Thameslink filling in.
The proposals for the extension beyond Abbeywood are to 1. add new tracks and overhead power lines parrallel to the existing mainline tracks. 2. add the overhead power lines to existing tracks ( Thameslink trains are dual voltage and the Citybeam trains can have pantograghs fitted). This would cut out the old Networker trains. By extending to Dartford/Ebsfleet, it would ease the parking and traffic chaos around AbbeywoodBelvedere/Thamesmead.
Yeah I have also noticed that at Abbey wood. Unless you are wanting to get to London Bridge direct, most other journeys to central London are quicker via the Elizabeth Line. I think I am more in favour of building parallel running tracks past Abbey wood instead of just sticking trains on the old tracks.
@networknathan Over the years, Southeastern trains have cut back direct services, like trains on the Woolwich line only go to Cannon Street, meaning having to change for Charing Cross when heading for West End. The Elizabeth Line has fixed that and some.
I like your videos, especially from someone from my background, though I am you parents generation.
Really love him!!! He just as passionate as Geoff Marshall. ❤❤❤❤
so much talent, great script and editing and knowledge! love ur content!!
Another scheme that has benefitted London and was far cheaper was reopening the Snow Hill tunnel in 1988, which allowed for north-south journeys through London. Prior to this, if you wanted to travel from Luton to Brighton, you had to change to the Underground at St Pancras and catch another train from Victoriia. Thameslink slashed journey times and opened up a new market for travel across London and the Souh East.
Yes it was incredibly worth it. So worth it in fact we need at least another 2 crossrails and arguably another Thameslink style service at the same time. We need to improve public transport in the areas around London badly. Crossrail 2 and connecting buses would transform my town of Cheshunt for the better massively.
yes agreed, more trains !!!!
Also a Cheshunt-ite and agree with every word! Great video Nathan
Great Video. Good to see you spent time at my Favourite Elizabeth line Station. Hanwell.
It's honestly the best
Thanks Nathan! Your video is packed full of info yet it's easy to understand and feels unstuffy thanks to your delivery style
Great video, Nathan. It's interesting that you mention the future plans for the Elizabeth Line. I think having a station at Silvertown would be a good idea, especially as North Woolwich (which used to have a station on the old North London Line, on which the Elizabeth Line follows track aligment) does not have a station. Maybe TfL feels Silvertown would be too close to Custom House.
Possibly, that would make sense
That’s a pipe dream for trains to come that quick in Chicago! Try every 12 to 20 minutes depending on the line and time of day!
Yes, definitely! For a journey through London, changing to and from the Elizabeth line is nicer than having to use the Tube all the way. I'm thinking specifically about between Liverpool Street or Stratford and Paddington or London Bridge.
Love your work fellah. Some YT’s should stick to subtitles but you’re succinct and to the point.
Now back to the line - Harold Wood is my local station so I use it a lot, not during the rush hours though but having said that, it’s amazing how busy the ‘Lizzy’ can get even during the so called ‘quiet periods’.
Seat comfort has always been its major down side and a lack of toilet facilities for many, although I believe most stations do have said facilities open at most times.
I was also disappointed by the lack of ‘semi-fast’ - ‘fast’ trains East of the core but it is what it is and the rest of it makes up for one or two minor failings ‘IMO’.
I’ve done it all now, apart from Hayes & H - Reading but will hopefully rectify that early in the New Year.
Talking of which, the idea of direct trains between Shenfield and Reading appears to have been put on the back burner but to be honest, what is the point when all you have to do at Paddington is to get off one train, stand there for a couple of minutes at most, and hey presto here’s the Reading connection.
Elizabeth Line is a success, but you can argue it is a victim of it own Sucess, great video
Would be nice to see 11-Car Class 345 trains on the Elizabeth Line to accommodate more extra passengers and other stations to have platforms extended to accommodate longer trains. Plus with 10 more Class 345s on order to increase more capacity on the Elizabeth Line.
I do like the idea of how the Elizabeth Line will continue to expand more capacity and to increase more frequency since it came into service in May 2022.
That was a wonderful education Nathan, so informative.
Thank you
Benefit cost ratios are kind of a blunt instrument to be using and many transport experts tend to argue that we shouldn't use them in the way we do. Like, that BCR for HS2 ignores the fact that the rest of the UK's theoretical high speed rail network would depend on that link - the BCR for original HS2 with routes to Manchester and to Leeds is higher because those sections are cheaper than the London-Birmingham section.
With regard to crossrail, it's definitely worth it with about 1/6th of all GB rail journeys taking place on it. But I would say the lack of level boarding is a massive problem - mostly because it might genuinely be unfixable. The class 345s and central london stations are built at a higher and non-standard platform height. The legacy stations on GEML and GWML cannot be modified to Crossrail's custom height/horizontal position because it would conflict with freight and other national rail standard dimensions. Either you close the core for multiple years and rebuild every station while replacing the entire fleet (which is ofc impossibly disruptive, expensive and wasteful ) or you fully isolate elizabeth line services on either side which would make Greater Anglia and GWR services a lot less reliable because they don't have the resilience of using the slow lines if needed. (I was once on a GA train that switched the slow lines to get around a freight train.) I also don't think that it would be practicably possible in some areas. But if we don't do anything, more people will continue to break their foot at Ealing Broadway.
TfL and DfT should have really avoided all this and just built the core stations to the standard platform height and procured trains for that height, nothing was gained from doing it this way
I travel to London a few times a year from D.C. and the Elizabeth Line is the most convenient and efficient line I've ridden in London (getting to and from the airport, I mean). A lot better than what we have here in the States.
You are spot on Nathan, trains are better than private cars. In addition, electric cars are very expensive per mile if you only do 2 or 3,000 miles a year and they add to congestion.
The current Elizabeth line west of Paddington is a world away from the local train services that ran between Reading and Paddington before electrification, when two and three coach class 165 Turbostars worked this route
Awesome video man :)
I don’t know why that TfL wants 10 more Class 345s that will increase the capacity of trains on the Elizabeth Line to 80 9-Car trains. But I guess that 10 more Class 345s is probably needed to help with the overcrowding.
And also there are options to extend the Elizabeth Line to Dartford and Gravesend. With the Class 345s to have DC shoebox conductors to operate on 750v 3rd Rail.
For the extension to OOC
We really need to start getting rid of turd rail. It's very dangerous to engineering workers and can easily kill passengers.
Let's start handing these railway lines over to Thameslink, as they can then maintain continuity of service as the overhead lines go in.
@@DavidShepheard Yes. Third rail can be bad.
Didn’t care much at all for it when it opened. But got a new job a couple months ago and it’s helped my commute a lot!
have heard no one mention how the EL has decompressed the load on the Piccadilly. That service could get terribly crowded from Heathrow to central London. The EL is much more traveler friendly but I do have a soft spot for my journeys from LHR to Zone 1. With Piccadilly due for its upgrade rolling stock, I assume these 2 years have been a great way to bridge to that upgrade and ease the overburdened line
That is a great insight actually. I wonder if the new 24stock will mean people will transfer back to the Piccadilly line for their journeys to LHR
the benefit to cost ratio being 3.45 is very ironic
isn't it just aha
the Elizabeth line is....just there. For me at least. I never have travelled on it, i mainly use Southern or Thameslink, and the occasional South Western Railway, mainly for their 455s but they do help me get to some places.
love your vids, would be great if they ever did the crossrail 2 project
I want Crossrail 2 to come so that Crossrail can become the name for the purple roundel, while Elizabeth Line and a new name for Crossrail 2 would be the line names. Like with the Underground and now the Overground.
Frustratingly the Elizabeth line trains are built above the standard platform height, and the stations were designed around the trains, so the lizzy line will *never* be accessible…
:(
Yep. I said the same thing. Johnson is to blame. He specified that TfL had to take 345 trains instead of letting the GLA decide.
Yes! People thought it would be underused, .
It has regenerated Whitechapel, Farringdon, Tottenham Court Road, Paddington, Liverpool Street, Bond Street (Hanover Square) Canary Wharf, Woolwich in the tunnelled core. Ok woolwich is outer London but its still tunneled.
You can invest on improving the step free access under successive government if we make the need to do it across battleground seats for Mps along the line.
Btw Lizzy line can have a stop at Ladbroke Grove Sainsburys too.
London City Airport could have been opened if the line was flopped maybe.
As well as the Ebbsfleet or Gravesend extension possibly in the short future.
Who knows even Chelmsford or Southend Airport 😂 Which Essex County Council would love but would scr*w up the capacity on the line.
You can do a Staines and Brentford Docks extension from Southall. Not Lizzy line trains but Lizzy Line strengthens the business case too
I think the Chelmsford or Southend Airport extension would definitely mess up the line ahaha
Nice work! 😊
Excellent video, thank you.
Yes. Worth it.
Next video.
Loved your breakdown of cost to benefit ratio. can you please provide a link of how these benefits are not just subjective and how they put an accurate figure to it?
Although I live hundreds of miles away, I spend a few weeks in London in the summer and often travel from Kensington to Burnham or Maidenhead. The journey is OK but. Firstly at Paddington I have to exit the tube to the street, then go down the escalators to the Elizabeth Line station. There I find the gates have no capability to read the e-ticket on my phone (Oyster does not go further than West Drayton). Likewise the new gates at Burnham do not read e-tickets either. Seems crazy.
How do you spend that much on a new railway line and not have level boarding?
You have a prime minister who doesn't care about level boarding who imposes trains that are too high for the standard platforms on the project.
The other thing wrong with the crossrail trains (which have to talk to three different types of signalling system) is that Central Government refused to pay for the signalling systems to the east and west of London to be upgraded. All of that "trial running" and all of the extra time spent fiddling with the trains was because of false-economy measures.
We had a prime minister who was an idiot who imposed the 345s on the project.
It's not worth it for me. I travel between St Pancras and Heathrow Terminal 5.
Given having to make an extra change at a minimum (to get on the Elizabeth line), and there only being 2 trains an hour to T5, which usually means a second change at T2, it's not really any faster than just jumping on the Piccadilly line. Sure the Elizabeth line is quieter, but it's also more expensive. The only time I use it is when there's disruption on the Piccadilly line.
Great video!
Love your MLE style
Elizabeth line is fantastic
There are two big problems with the Elizabeth line (1) no fast trains to Heathrow. and not a very frequent service there (2) no space for luggage for all the airport passengers - Even the Piccadilly line has luggage space
Must admit for 7 years old train Still looks pretty new.
I think that this is partly because adventras are still being built. If it was an electrostar model in as good condition it would aesthetically look more dated just due to being an older design.
The Elizabeth was overbudget and late, and still a massive success. The fact we don't talk about it when discussing something like HS2, which could also be a massive success despite spiralling costs and delays, is either stupidity, or sheer malice
An enjoyable video. 🚂
Crossrail seems to be very similar to Melbournes Metro Tunnel, from the trains, purpose, & influence on the wider network. You should look into comparing them when the Metro Tunnel opens either if you choose to travel to Australia or collab with a Melbourne focused rail UA-camr.
Definitely on the bucket list!
I am not a huge fan of some of the newly built stations. They look lovely, don't get me wrong, but the accesses are problematic and minimalistic. The platforms are long, but the accesses are mainly at their extremities. On top of that, the flow of people going in and out of the platforms is not segregated, which, altogether, creates congestion points. The problem is that they have not created an exchange level above these platforms, and you can feel that the stations were created where they managed to find enough space and were connected to the existing stations by a tiny thread. If you could go to Paris and ride the RER A, the central portion would be precisely what I would have envisaged for the Elizabeth line. Platforms are at the -2 level, and the -1 level is an exchange level where you find connecting trains and accesses to platforms. In that way, people going to the platforms use different accesses than before getting out, and they all meet at the larger -1 area.
Hope the new Piccadilly trains start serving the line before summer 2025 or it’s not as hot.
I don't get how they will extend to Dartford as Abbey Wood only has one through platform on the Elizabeth line platforms
The only complaint that I have about your output is that there isn't more of it.
The trains are good so I wonder why South Western Raikways had so many faukts on the variant of them they leased.
Politics. It is advantageous to SWR to have a train stopped for faults, so they will try much harder to have a train stopped for a fault so they don't have to pay the leasing charge.
@@Titan604 And the only leased those because they thought the charge for the Siemens ones that wre==ere already in service was too high and took them off lease!!
Rolling stock operating companies are a stupid idea that leads to fare revenue being siphoned off into the bank accounts of investors, instead of being reinvested in the railways.
ROSCO fees has led to profiteering ToCs trying to cram tons of Northerners onto tiny trains to save money.
Just get the government to buy trains that are large enough for passengers to fit on them and give those trains to nationalised train operators that work for local government. And just get the government to extend shot platforms, so that longer trains can call there, when the trains start to get too overcrowded and outgrow the stations.
@@DavidShepheard I think they were just to ease the change of franchisees, as no selling on of stock would be needed at the end of a franchise. Just another flaw in the method of "privitisation" of the raliways that John Major came up with
W video
Nah this train has slowed down my journey into central London. The Eastern section used to have peak hour services that skipped some stops, which was useful as Greater Anglia doesn't stop at Romford during peak hours, now all trains stop at all stations, meaning that its a long boring slow and crowded trip through all those awful places like Ilford, Forest Gate, Goodmayes etc.
The reliability has gone down a lot more, trains now get affected by random delays or issues on the Western section and Signalling faults/issues that screws up the service.
Thats is fair - hopefully with time the reliability of the services will increase. It is just apart of a much bigger network now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
my only problem with the liz line is they didn't use lower body trains. like you get with the flirts in East Anglia or Wales. this is part of why you don't have level boarding to trains outside of the core
I actually think we should be raising platforms instead. As someone with reduced mobility I'd like to be able to walk through the train without any internal raised sections😊
Until you step heavily off the plinths due to forgetting the warning announcement.
They also have to reduce the width at floor level.
Doesnt his voice sound so simular?
YES
345s are decent trains but far from relisble units nor best units out there, that would go to the Desiro 444s age wise for how they’ve held up and of the new stock the 745/755s
It’s awesome
brilliant presenting, if you could add a bit more fluidity between transitions of statements, it would be perfect!
everyday is a school day 🫡
All the benefits turn up in land value. This line has generated and sustains huge amounts of additional land value. The same applies to the Jubilee Line Extension. It is an ongoing gain.
It is why we need to be getting rid of existing taxes and replacing them with a land value tax. There are many videos on this topic, including some on my own channel.
yes it WAS
I wish Oystercard was valid for the entire route.
same :(
Why can't Infrastructure like this be built outside of London?. Everything is packed up in London, what kind of United Kingdom is that?.
Infrastructure like this can be built outside of London (see Birmingham Curzon Street) and the amazing 777 program that Merseytravel used to make Liverpool's Merseyrail system more wheelchair friendly than London Underground in one swoop.
But the main problem we have is MPs with an anti-rail attitude who argue that any rail investment has to be paid back by "increased passenger revenue."
Crossrail was first proposed about 100 years before it was built. And Central Government cancelled Crossrail 2 after Crossrail 1 was delayed by bad geology underneath Bond Street station.
There have been over twenty attempts to get the Bakerloo Line extended into South East London and those attempts keep getting blocked. (We actually had a little girl die in Lewisham from car pollution and Lewisham would have been one of the stops on the most recent plan to extend the Bakerloo Line.)
The Jubilee Line Extension was only built because a private company involved in the Docklands Development Project promised to pay some of the costs. (That company then went bust, so the project ended up being government funded anyway.)
The Northern Line Extension was paid for with finance from property developers. Wandsworth Council then let those property developers build less social housing and sell more luxury flats.
The Thameslink 2000 program did not get built until 2020.
Even in London, there is constant pushback against railway investment, unless there is oversight development involving luxury flats. And that attitude has to change.
Firstly, we need to get rid of the InterCity trains that cause mixed-traffic problems on our rail network. That means rehabilitating HS2, restoring the Eastern Leg, and building the thing all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh. But it also means getting rid of all the stupid spur-branches that the original plan had and building through stations.
Secondly, we need to repurpose the mainlines that InterCity trains are removed from and look at railway lines in cities that currently have a "parliamentary service" (i.e. intentionally bad service) and create local transport authorities similar to Merseytravel and Transport for London and use all the freed up capacity of getting rid of InterCity trains to create electrified rail networks that are resignaled to get as many passengers in and out of the suburbs around every city in the UK.
Instead of coming up with business case requrements that only get stations built next to luxury flats, we need to do things like look at sports stadiums and ask: "If the World Cup Final match was played here, how many trains per hour do we need to get all the spectators to and from the stadium?" We need to look at NHS hospitals and give extra weighting to them having railway stations with a good service because: "if your relatives have an accident and are taken to the nearest hospital, you need to be able to get their easily" and because "we need hard-working NHS staff to be able to jump on a train and get home easily".
We can easily do those things. We just have to redefine what "return on investment" means, and stop the naysayers from blocking projects.
Not any use for us outside London who don't travel into London. We helped finance it but reap no benifit.
London subsidises the rest of the UK so wind your neck in
Not yet. Only two stations are worth it.
which stations?
@ Woolwich and Abbey Wood.
@@eastlancsesteem Objectively speaking, you are wrong. The sheer number of people crowding onto the trains speaks volumes
When I was at Paddington the other day, I had to let go any train that didn’t start there (pulling in empty) as it was that busy in the morning peak. That tells me there is a lot of demand for people to travel from GWML stations into the core section. Especially if the trains go to Canary Wharf
@@hashbrown1392 You are correct ✅
H is pronounced Aitch. Haitch is an Irish thing, and they're not English, so they don't get a vote.
Awesome 👍
Great video !!