This is my favourite Lady Maria lore video BY FAR. This is the only video that treats Maria as a multifaceted character and the doll as Gerhman’s ideas of women rather that as a 1:1 recreation of Maria. Super insightful and nice to see.
Thank you, Darrell! In all honesty, I made this video because I was waiting for someone else to explore these exact ideas. Judging by the way that dreams and nightmares work in Bloodborne (I talk about this more in the Gods and Nightmares video on my channel), the Great Ones listen when the people in this world appeal to them and often answer their prayers. In Gehrman's case, his wish was to see a Hunter's Workshop exactly as he experienced it in its best days with Maria by his side. The problem was that the image of Maria he had projected into his mind was a false one. It wasn't really who she was, it was the idea he had in his head of what her identity was to him. It always annoyed me, to be honest, when people also projected the Doll's personality onto Maria. (I think this is because when you have a woman's experience, you see this happening to you by other people. This has certainly happened to me.) Neither of these theories are exactly proven, but I feel like she had a mix of the Doll's gentleness with Maria's fierceness as we see her in the nightmare. Both are relevant to her. She's multi-faceted, just as you said, and that's one of the many details I adore about her character. This video is a love letter to her (and to From Software for making such an outstanding game.)
Also Adeline's phrase "Lady Maria _never_ approved, but I am proud to have been a Blood Saint" may hint that Maria knew her before the Research Hall and even tried to dissuade her from becoming a Blood Saint, which adds another level of tragedy to their relationship.
So this is my favorite lore video on Lady Maria. You touched on a lot of things no one else has really gone into so much. I really love Jerk Sans Frontier, and I love his video on the Doll/Maria but he implied that Gherman was disgusted or repulsed by the doll and didn't really elaborate. I really like how you explained it. He made this fantasy version of Maria in his mind, and when that fantasy came to life he realized he hadn't being seeing the real Maria, the one he cared for. So I think with Gherman it's not repulsion he feels for the doll itself, but disgust for himself and the version of Maria he had a mania for. The doll made him confront that. I don't know if anything I said made sense, but you put it well and I really loved your video on it.
That's wonderful, I'm glad you liked the video! I agree with Gehrman's assessment of the Doll. With the help of the Moon Presence, he brought to life what he felt was Maria's essence and realized to his horror that he was wrong. It's like the old legends about wishing on a monkey's paw where the person gets what he wished for, but when the desires come to life, he discovers that the realized wish is exaggerated.
@@Michela So Gherman basically did not rationally understood María well. Because it'd make no sense that he would react and perceive them differently if they didn't have differences in personality traits
Between the fact that killing the Orphan of Kos eases Gehrman's sleep, and the fact that the Orphan's sobs sound exactly like Gehrman's, it's obvious that there's a connection between Gehrman and the Orphan. Personally I believe that, even though the scholars and hunters all took part in the violation of Kos and the Fishing Hamlet, it was Gehrman alone who violated the Orphan's corpse, perhaps pulling it from the corpse of Kos and cutting it open for the scholars to study.
Setting aside her story, I have to say that her boss fight might be my favorite of all time. The combination of the incredible music and her awesome fighting style gave me goosebumps.
Both Maria and Gehrman lived for the hunt and for the knowledge that comes with it. It was impossible for him not to notice her prowess with a blade or her academic achievements while she was next to him covered in blood witnessing the same things he was witnessing and learning from him. In a dark world of nightmare and horrors she was his light, she was the one he would do anything to save...but he failed, The only way to cope with this reality was to create the doll, an innocent version of Maria, removed from danger, horror and gore. In his own way, he tried to offer her the life he wished she had, even if that life was a dream within a dream . I find it difficult to accept that Miyazaki would make one of the main characters of the story, "The First Hunter"", to be some stereotypical drooling idiot who is incapable of comprehending the complexity of a human being, especially the human being he falls in love with. .
I love this take, I agree. It's all borne out of his grief over her suicide and the various forms of love he felt for her, which were never requited. He made the doll what he wanted to hold on to, what he wanted to protect in the safety of the dream... and the Great One answered his prayer.
I think its a bit of both, but I think this take forfeits the aspect of Gehrman's disdain for the doll after creation if it was truly something he wished she could have been. Gehrman isn't stupid. He's a man in a story of men who view and torture women as malleable incubators - and their babies as tools - to obtain eldritch enlightenment. Gehrman is a man who has a "mania" for his own *student* with an obvious age gap, who suggests the player can fuck the innocent doll modeled after said student, and (easter egg) keeps books on "how to pick up fair maidens" (which is clearly a dev joke, but tells their perspective on Gehrman's salacious behavior.) At the least his view of her, how he wished she should have lived, is being an endlessly doting servant for him. Whether or not he was present, witness or even retroactively appreciative to the depth of Lady Maria, this was far from a deep and noble love..
I really liked the explanation you gave about Gehrman only seeing a caricature of Lady Maria, and transposing his memories of her into the doll, which turned out to be futile. I don't think I've heard an explanation as in depth as this, good job!
I know this is really old, so i do not know if any of you will even read this but I am gonna share my thoughts anyway. As Maria is clearly linked to Gehrman in a romantic way through the words "Great Admiration for Gehrman" and Gehrman's "Mania" and also the doll, I do not think that Maria has romantic affections for Adilene. Maria takes care of the patients, so as you say, she is more of a mother for the patients and atoning for her mistakes in her own way. Another thing to note is that the boss in the garden is named "living failures", so maybe maria was sending Adilene there as a failed patient. Giving her the key to go herself is odd, but maybe Maria could not bear it to send her dearest patient off. Who knows, maybe the living failures boss only exists because Maria did not kill any of the failed patients.
Toby Kami I always felt that it was a one sided love affair. That she may have respected him, possibly loved him, but wasn’t in love with him. He was obsessed with her to the point a doll was created in her image. I also don’t think he loved her, more like, he loved the idea of her. My reasoning behind that is again the doll. As Maria's standin for the dream, is basically a simplified, idealized version of her that existed in Gehrman's obsessed mind: a loving, non-judgemental caregiver who lived only for "the hunter". Mania isn’t love. It’s a very unstable twisted version of it and is typically always one side.
@@Ur1Mel1 Exactly, as a caregiver you can love someone but not in the romantic sense but rather the way you love your parents, friends and most importantly children. Love in that you always wish them good, try to protect them from harm, and genuinely care for them.
I cried when I figured out her story the first time in any game has made me cry. Maybe because I can some what relate to her story but that even in death she will do any thing to stop hunters from making her mistakes and and save them from the eternal nightmare while leaving herself trapped and undying in there. Maria and gherman are my favourite bosses in the soulsborne games because they are both so human and don’t fight for honour,revenge,hatred or bloodlust but because they want to save you from becoming trapped in the nightmare or the dream
Thank you very much for your comment! I'm glad you took the time to watch the video. Maria is such a dear character to me and I wanted to do her justice.
Maria is such a fascinating character. I wish that FromSoft was able to utilize more of Lady Maria as seen in the cut dialogue that Sanadsk released. I've also heard that the Old Hunter's Bone could have come from one of the Beasthunter's Saif hunters in the hunter's nightmare. (That's alot of hunter's) I can't remember if he actually uses quickening or not but I do remember that he is unique in that he doesn't have a gun and wears Gehrman's hat along with the decorative old hunter's set.
I also would love to have seen more dialogue from her or perhaps a memory, but that isn't always FromSoft's style. From the cut content, she used to be less 3-dimensional in my opinion. I feel like since they cut the unnecessary bits and gave her story more of a "punch" as you see in her final cutscene, her presence ended up having much more power. That's interesting about the Saif hunter! Many of the Old Hunters used Quickening apparently without using an item, you could definitely argue that it could have belonged to any of them. What makes this bone to be more closely related is that it's found at the Hunter's Nightmare gravestone in the Dream, the one that the Doll specifically prays at, as if she feels a connection to it.
Thank you!! Since I felt like so much of Bloodborne's lore had been discovered already, one of the first details that I looked into and thought was underappreciated was the fashion and costume design. It turns out they have lore and historical implications, so I'm glad to have taken that path.
Simon's last words on the fishing village may indeed confirm that the fisherman cursed them using the great one, as he says something along the line of "we are cursed, why do we have to pay for the sins of our ancestors"
Little thing you missed, its likely that the hunter's nightmare made her weaker, Kos's form of retribution and torture was to force her to rely on the blood blades she detested, and yet, like everything she sought to achieve in life, no matter her effort the world kept it's boot on her neck, her master thought of her as little more than a nice body, her hunting career ending in her murdering hundreds of innocents and defiling Kos's body, and her attempt to help the patients meant nothing, everything she worked so hard for and it all ended with her own suicide. Her pressure blades cast away, the patients she cared for all doomed to die horrible deaths. Its not a coincidence she's so close to the living failures. her life was a failure, but not for lack of effort.
The blood in Maria's chalices is her own blood, and the description of the third Brain Fluid indicates that ultimately, Maria fell due to her own actions. Maria is the only character referred to as Lady, and Lady is the feminine form of Lord. This means she's not just a mere relative of the Vilebloods but rather holds some monarchical rights, although she was never considered a queen since Annalise holds that position. It's most likely that Lady Maria was the true Pthumerian queen of her time, which implies some form of authority associated with her. Lady Maria strongly resembles Joan of Arc, representing a woman ahead of her time yet still connected to the sacred mysteries of a church. Perhaps she was judged as a messenger of the gods or feared. The fact that she represents a virtuous vision of a Vileblood hunter supporting the Church creates a transitional and conflicting image. It seems her ultimate fate is deeply connected to this ambiguity, but instead of ending in a bonfire, she ultimately embraces her position as a Vileblood. That's the significance of Lady Maria's death - a Vileblood who would naturally be an enemy of the Church but worked for it in seeking a solution to the Beastly Scourge. In the end, she discovered she was part of what caused the scourge, leading her to resent her own fate, isolate herself, and ultimately accept the inevitable truth that she's a Vileblood murderer like all the others. Regarding Kos, it's said that the Lingering Curse emanating from the rotting remains of Kos on the beach is the source of all greatness. Therefore, all power centers around Kos, originating from the bottomless Curse. So, the involvement of the earliest hunters in an assault against Kos isn't just a speculative theory. It's most likely that Byrgenwerth created Kos, and while the creation led them to Eldritch discoveries and contact, the thirst for power resulted in the transgression that generated the curse, metamorphoses, and everything else.
Awesome, detailed video! Loved your comments and imput! Just to present another way of looking at it, I always interpreted Maria's relationship with Adeline and patients as a mother might with children addicted to a substance, Adeline being like an older child she was closer to. When I read "couldn't fathom her intentions," I read it sort of on the lines of a mother attempting to ease her child's pain from an addiction (in this case, to the brain fluid and her slow descent into madness) but Adeline was so caught up in being worth something more, she couldn't understand why Maria wouldn't want the same. Considering you find wilted flowers about, the words of the patients, and other patients out in the gardens, I always assumed she attempted to do the same for the others, but eventually felt helpless in her attempts. Just a thought! Again, great video!
Thanks! You can easily interpret Maria and Adeline's relationship that way. I definitely see metaphors here and there to addiction throughout Bloodborne. The Research Hall could certainly be a reflection of that.
I feel so late to this video! pouring through them all. @2:55 incredible read on Gehrman's one-way obsession with Maria =/= Maria's multifaceted humanity. Subconsciously I always felt this, but you just put it to words excellently. I know I'm just saying what a lot of others have already said, but between @Michela, @SinclairLore, @HoneyBat, and @Miss_chalice, the insight gap I've experienced from fem exclusion in gaming is filling over the brim as i discover more and more from this awesome content! tyty for making it
This is so sweet! I'm glad you're getting into my Bloodborne videos! To this day these are my favorites and I'm proud of them. I definitely saw a rift between what Gehrman saw of Maria and who she actually was. This is why the Doll ends up being so unsettling to him (and why we as players feel put off by how he treats her in-game.) He couldn't capture who Maria was because he never fully saw her as a person. This happens in real life too! I hear you, and I'm glad you mentioned names like Sinclair and Zulie! I love both of their channels.
I feel like I should comment this, did anyone see this or not. I just started playing Bloodborne three days ago after an over four years break when I played the game with my former friend with voice chat and therefore the chatting took away from the story. After I had slain 4 "Bosses" the game was left alone 'cause we moved on something else. It's worth mentioning that Bloodborne is my first Soulsborne game. Between that "break" from the game (I doubted I'd ever be able to play it through without guidance) I started writing my Thesis as a scriptwriter/director and fell in love with Lovecraft's literary philosophy of Cosmicism and the way he portrayed Cosmic Horror in the Weird-tales scene in 1920's. I wanted to create a academic study around the question "Can Cosmic Horror be adapted into silver screen without breaking the Lovecraft's philosophy. It took three and a half years of research of different other philosophical texts, theology, mythologies, genres of horror alongside with Audiovisual studies and philosophies to create my own philosophy which lend ideas from philosophers like Renee Descartes, Jean Baudrillard, Plato and Aristotle fused with Sumerian, Finnish and Norse mythologies and theologies from Judaist cabals to Minism. I succeeded on the question and wrote two screenplays to prove it. It was according Harvard's database which our Uni is connected, unique, no one had ever done an actual academic study on the subject and this was confirmed via checking by several lecturers. The crazy thing is that Bloodborne had proven practically 80% of the research seven years earlier and I didn't know about it because I doubted my gaming abilities to the extent where any Soulsborne game seem'd like a fever dream to complete. I have fell in love with this game. I was obsessed by that one question three and a half years to the point where I couldn't sleep properly. Now I can see it in interactive format and it's hard to describe the feeling I have while playing this game. All I really wanted from the play through was to familiarize myself to the Souls-like combat system 'cause Elden Ring intrigues me so much. What I got was something beyond joy. I absolutely adore this channel due the deep understanding, precise explanation and last but not least the presentation! The atmosphere is great and narration fits with the imagery perfectly! So Kudos Michela, you got a new subscriber even though I'm commenting on 5 years old video!
Thank you so much, Joni! I'm impressed you did your thesis based on cosmic horror. What you did must've been fascinating work. I'm so glad you rediscovered Bloodborne after all this time and that the Souls/Borne/Ring games are bringing you joy. That's the point of it all. I love finding answers to the questions the game poses, and thinking on those that will always remain unanswered. I'm still proud of these lore videos the most, so even years later, I appreciate your comment and the sentiment.
@@Michela All I can say is that it was exhausting, consuming yet interesting to the point where I’m following through it and start to create from that study. Bloodborne captured the essence of Cosmic Horror almost without flaws, but those flaws in the subject matter are the ones that the medium requires. Do I dare to expect that there would be Elden ring lore videos coming at some point as well? I would love to see your take on that!
@@Joni_Tarvainen I'd even say that Bloodborne improves on its cosmic horror predecessors by turning the genre on its head. Instead of fearing otherness, Bloodborne embraces it. It's an incredible piece of media. With lore, I tend to do it based on whether I get inspired by a character or aspect of the story. I'm still very early into the game, but I'd love to dive further into the lore if I get that level of inspiration. Until then, I want to do some early impressions, reviews, and boss lists once I finish.
Lady Maria's dialogue is especially what makes it more certain to me that she committed suicide. "Oh I know very well, how the secrets beckon so sweetly" implies that she herself has experienced the curiosities that our hunter as well as Simon experience, and so she went into the nightmare to find out the secrets of the church and their predecessors from Bergynwerth. "Only an honest death will cure you now" implies that she has likely undergone a dishonest death, hence suicide. She may well have been the one to leave the lumenflowers at the gravestone near the Lighthouse hut in the Fishin Hamlet. All things considered, I think it's safe to say that Gehrman was not only involved with the Church's formation, but also could well have been the one responsible for the death of Kos. He is described as The First Hunter so he may have hunted Kos. To find that her master was responsible for such a grave sin must have devastated Maria. Hence with that mind I believe she was not involved in the tragedy that went on in the Fishing Hamlet, she may have not even been old enough to be hunter at that point, because she's young when we meet her whereas Gehrman is old which implies that these were the ages in which these two entered the nightmare. Her regret in regards to whoever is in that picture may be related to the previous host of the Hunter's Nightmare. I've speculated about this before in a twitter thread but the jist of it is that I believe that Gehrman and Maria are likely their respective Dream worlds' hosts, holding a position akin to Micolash in the Nightmare of Mensis. The second ending of the game also implies that a host can be replaced. To me I feel like Micolash and Gehrman were both the first of their own Dream Worlds' hosts but Maria likely wasn't. Whoever was the first host of the Hunter's Nightmare stood guard at the clocktower before to protect the secret of the Church/Bergynwerth and tried to stop Maria at all costs, but failed which lead to Maria going into the Fishing Hamlet and getting embraced by the Orphan as a new host. Even if she herself was not responsible for the horrible things that happened in the village, shouldering the sins of your predecessors is a strong them in The Old Hunters' DLC and to me that shows she still exhibits the qualities you talked about in the end in regards to atonement. From her suicide attempt she discovered that a host can not simply leave through suicide and that idea is supported by the fact that Gehrman remained in the Hunter's Dream for so long, longing for relief without committing suicide, but still he's too kind of a man to let someone else kill him and take on his role. Tonight, Gehrman Joins the Hunt.
lol, that last line was kinda cheesy. Also, sorry if my thoughts are kinda scrambled cuz I wrote the comment before finishing the video and came back to add other stuff in the middle after finishing the video.
No worries, I'm happy to have the discussion! Honestly, my first gut reaction was that Maria may not have even wanted to take part in what happened with the Fishing Hamlet, but I believe that at the very least she was there to see it and was disgusted by either her own actions or the simple act of witnessing what her peers were doing. With the level of guilt she experienced, I now feel that she took part and then experienced the intense regret later. She could have been overcome with the thirst for knowledge that a Great One might bring or even the Hunter's thirst for violence, but that's something that we can only wonder about. It could have gone any of these ways, but I strongly feel that at least she was there in the moment. The honest death part is interesting too. I didn't think of it that way, but then again I don't see her suicide as a dishonest death either, only that she couldn't bear the pain any longer. The honest death could have been referring to the hunter being killed while still maintaining some level of "innocence" or otherwise not knowing about the depth of the previous hunters' crimes. I completely agree that they're each the hosts of their own nightmares like Micolash, exactly as you said. Their consciousnesses power each respective dream.I think in Maria's case, the villagers sucked their area into a nightmare as punishment for what the hunters did to them, appealing in chants to the Great Ones. When Maria died, she was there too because she was either involved or otherwise present in the Hamlet. I believe that this also applies to Ludwig and Laurence, since they're also specifically in the Nightmare. You make a fascinating point though, that she might have chosen to become the host to shoulder the responsibilities. It's something she would do. Also, I love your UA-cam name, it's too perfect.
This is a great video! I'm writing an essay kind of similar to this because replaying Bloodborne has given me a much greater appreciation for Maria, the Doll, and their relationship w/ each other & Gehrman. It's great to hear another woman's perspective on this & it's especially great to hear someone else acknowledge the possibility of Maria having romantic feelings for Adeline! Can't wait to see more from you
Thank you so much! I'm glad you're writing a similar essay, I genuinely love great Bloodborne content and I'm sure it will be a great addition! With Adeline, it took until the second or third time I played. After reading the Balcony Key description, I had an epiphany and thought, "Hey, maybe there's something to Maria's 'intentions!'" I don't necessarily take it as canon as much as it is a suggestion, but it's not too far of a stretch of the imagination. 😉
I found Gehrman far more fascinating than Maria. I mean where else can you find a final boss, being a lonely old man, with a pleasure doll (in the image of his student) in his closet. He's a endearing guy, cuz unlike most others in Yahrnem, He helps you to the best of his ability, while also being a joking tragic figure, with a love interest in maria. The man seems alot more human then most Fromsoft characters. That bit you said about Gehrman's feeling towards the doll was spot on.
I appreciate the insight, I agree on many points! Everyone will have different characters that they're most interesting, and Gehrman is more than worthy of that. He's by far one of the most interesting when you look deeply at his personality and motivations. I even feel like he was thrown under the bus by Laurence and the others. He's stuck in the dream hoping to be rescued, but nobody comes for him. Whether that's because they left him behind or because they became waist deep in their own problems is unknown, but no matter how you slice it, it's a tragic situation. Even when he has the chance to pass the torch onto you to become the next guardian, he'll fight you with the best of his abilities before letting that happen, even though he wants nothing else but liberation.
And Gwyn, was even better, and never said a word.Dont know if you've played Dark souls. he was more of a active participant than Gehrman, hows more a victim of happenstance, Then Gwyn how desperately tried to fix the word, but probably only made it worse. Bloodborne's world is more concise, grounded, but the theme of life, and how it will all eventually end, hit me a bit harder then Bloodborne nihilism SVAR
I feel like because of Miyazaki all of these are great opinions I feel like Gherman was a masterclass in character design as he is tragic in a sheakspearean way but after the old hunters he becomes that much more tragic (and the fact that this was a one off story from Miyazaki) through his backstory and love for lady Maria. As awesome as Maria may be I think Gherman gets even more human and interesting having loved then after those tragic events after koz was found not only was banished from the church, he lost his love to suicide, and then when called upon once again to help in the final hours of dispair becomes the harbinger of death through the moon presence and now is lost in the hunters dream watching hunters come and go until they go insane or he puts the out of their misery. I also feel like the reason he fights you is he has no choice if the moon presence chose Gherman as a host I’m sure it was using him as a vessel at that point. Gwynn is epic but as he was instrumental in the rise of man and all things in the light of the flame but he also killed all the dragons and arch trees to suit his lifestyle which is self serving to terraform the world so you and your buds can rule as gods of all things. I love the Souls series I started on Demons Souls early, so I still feel like false king allant was the most terrifying and epic fight out of all the main protagonists in the Souls series.. soul level drain!
I wish I found this sooner, great work on Maria. This is why she's one of my favorite game characters. Even though we are only given glimpses of who she was. These glimpses speak volumes.
Great video. Very insightful for someone like me who doesn't spend much time or thought trying to discover all of the fascinating lore in this game. Keep up the great work. 👍
I’ve been looking for lore analysis that goes deep and you are blowing my mind with these videos. A lot of what I thought I knew was surface level. Damn, this video is great!
Just discovering this now 6 years later, great summation and reading of Maria. It's good to have a female perspective on some of these things I wouldn't I have thought of myself. Reminds me of Honey Bat's amazing video on The Visceral Femininity of Bloodborne.
Lady Maria had special care for Adeline because she was a once a Blood Saint. Her blood was unique and the Church valued the few Saints who managed to turned out well.
The doll was designed to be a fake mother to the child they used to call to the moon presence, a fake mother to replace Queen Cainhurst's given the umbilical chord. Given the blood on the altar in the hunter's dream, gerhman's refusal to look at it, and his disdain for the doll. . . .The child died when the moon presence was called, and the doll was given the personality of the caring mother she was designed to be, instead of the Maria she looks like. This is also why dolls like her were used in the menses nightmare. I love how the game takes multiple people to piece together. . .Maria is probably aware her likeness was used to fashion a surrogate mother for a surrogate child
Lovely video, Maria is definitely an interesting character even if I find myself agreeing with Sander in saying that Gehrman is far more intriguing, because I find him 'pathetic' in a very human and relatable sort of way. He was skilled but he's not a hero, not a saviour nor someone who tried to redeem himself (at least, not before the Dream) and he's not someone with a complicated backstory to be told. He's not of noble blood, he's not special in any way nor particularly nice to have around since the writers intentionally gave him creepy old man vibes in his infamous 'should it please you' line. Maybe I just like ugly and unpleasant people :P I can totally see why you decided to present the Maria/Adeline thing as a lore theory because there's clearly evidence to be found, but at the same time I noticed that most people that support this idea have the tendency to omit all the clues that point towards the other significant relationship Maria had with someone we are aware of, AKA the one with Gehrman and I was a bit disappointed in finding out that your video is no exception. The hair ornament, how the doll reacts to it and the fact that the picture Maria smashed is taken from the fireplace shelf in the Workshop are clear hints of how close to her heart the days she spent with the Old Hunters were. Even without going into the romantic side of it, I feel like Maria's deep respect for Gehrman is too often pushed to the side or completely ignored. Same thing goes for Gehrman's respect and understanding of who Maria was, in my opinion. The Tear Blood Gem item description reads: "Created from a shining silver doll tear, this blood gem is a quiet but unfaltering friend that continually restores HP, the life essence of a hunter. Perhaps the doll's creator had wished for just such a friend, albeit in vain." Which I believe to be the clearer clue about what Gehrman's intentions were when he made the Doll. He didn't want a 'sex doll' nor a servant, but a friend. Which is what Maria was most likely to him in life considering that she never knew about his more 'intimate' feelings towards her.
Thank you so much for the comment! I actually follow you on Deviantart and LOVE your Bloodborne fan art so much, it always makes me happy to see your new pieces. I agree with you that the relationship between Gehrman and Maria is under-stated, and I could have gone into more detail. I don't believe that they had a romantic connection, but I feel strongly that they were close and spent a significant amount of time together. The emotion that the Doll feels from the comb and Gehrman's deep sense of mourning are excellent points to attest to that. Gehrman is a fascinating character, there's no doubt about it. I honestly feel badly for him, he was left alone away from his peers and the one he loved the most. He tried to be with her in any way that he possibly could, even if he could never tell him herself. His desire led him to making the Doll, who is closely related to Maria, but didn't encompass her fully. I agree with you also in that I don't think she was made as a "sex doll," but more of a replica to try and emulate as much of Maria's essence as Gehrman could possibly manifest along with the Moon Presence. I'm glad to see more contributions to the conversation, I love talking about this game!
Thank you so much for the kind words! Glad to hear that you enjoy my art :D Since I draw Gehrman and Maria together a lot, people tend to assume that I believe (or want) the 'ship' to be canon but that can't be far from the truth XD. Lore-wise speaking, I absolutely agree with you about the romantic connection *not* being a thing, at least not on Maria's part, but I am fascinated by their relationship nevertheless. Bloodborne is easily one of my favourite games of all time and its complex characters are probably the major reason why I like it so much. Each of them enhances and further explores the themes of the plot... Ludwig embodies the 'noble' side of the Healing Church, Alfred, the Executioners and Adella its blind religious zealotry, Micolash is basically the ultimate example of what tampering with 'forbidden knowledge' does to people in Lovecraftian horror and so on. Dark/Demon Souls never felt as focused and well-executed as far as the theme goes despite having really good and interesting ideas. So yeah, I could definitely spend hours and hours chatting about how awesome and deep Bloodborne is XD Looking forward your future videos on the game!
This is another brilliant video agin. Something to point out is the warped topography of the nightmare and how the areas in the nightmare have clearly been ripped from reality meaning we don't know they're original placements in yharnam geographically. I wonder what came first the construction of the research hall or the assault on the fishing hamlet. It might seem like a superfluous question but it's answer would profoundly affect the nature of maria's character. Was she first a carer who looked after the chearches experiments slowly becoming detached from the hunters life before being called on one last hunt to sly kos or did she retroactively assume the carer role in atonement? It makes me wonder how involved she was in the experiments themselves and her views on the church? Nothing hints at her being anymore than a kind and loving caring figure to the patients. Though we know very well how dreams and nightmares can warp reality based based on a collective perception be it correct or otherwise? I personally don't think she was with German and the other hunters when fighting Kos instead tossing her weapon in disgust at the actions of herself and her fellow hunters leaving them to their fate and breaking Geherman's heart leading to him longing for her after this? One important possibility with the doll's dialogue about Maria is that as the doll and the Maria in the dream are connected. (Further proof of the dream and nightmare being bond) it could also mean that a part of her is trapped within the doll? interesting how that caring part of her is all that's remembered and enshrined of her. the rest of her true self forgotten to time along with her name. This shallow caricature of her being a perspective of her created by Gehrman and sustained in the minds that all who met her by the moon presence? You did a brilliant job with this just thought i'd add my thoughts as i did on the Ebritas video and the gods and nightmares vid. I hope my frequent input isn't annoying. My dyslexia sometimes means that the spelling and thusly coherency of my points are damaged somewhat but i hope it's still legible.
Another insightful comment, thank you! I don't think it's annoying. I love to hear people's feedback. Judging by the events and overall tone, I believe that Maria started caring for the Research Hall patients after the siege on the Fishing Hamlet as atonement. I don't believe she was involved whatsoever in the experiments (there's a lost piece of dialogue from Adeline saying that Maria didn't approve of her becoming a blood saint, for example), but she was there to provide comfort and relief. I think she renounced the hunt in the fishing hamlet (or possibly after - all we know is that she threw the Rakuyo in the well when she could stomach it no longer.)
I highly believe that the events of the research hall were the latter Considering that the hall in the waking world is part of the *healing church* . While the priest in the hamlet was cursing *Byrgenwerth* , so Gehrman and co did there crimes while still under the leadership of master Willem.
Thanks! The piece is called Adagio in G Minor by Tomaso Albinoni (There's an interesting story to that track where it might not even be by Tomaso Albinoni and could be modern, but because it was passed off as Albinoni's work, it's considered public domain.)
@@Michela Brilliant, thanks! Also, just discovered your lore videos and I must say, there's some excellent observations in there. Thanks for the content
Great video ive recently got into the game and really enjoying it but my only issue is the story to Bloodborne seem so cryptic do you plan to make a video breaking the story down in detail? That would be great.
Thank you! I don't plan on breaking down the entire story, since I've seen it done rather well before. What I will continue to do is find parts of the story that haven't been quite touched upon yet and make videos on them, or if I feel that certain details or theories haven't been explored. There's so much to it that we're all still making discoveries!
Wow, the algorithm gods brought me a lady (lore) hunter today. And it's someone that doesn't call a jabot a frilly tie or something. Pleasant surprise.
I'm glad you liked the video! There's a funny story about the jabot too! I spent the longest time trying to figure out whether it was a cravat or a jabot, since there were some differences in design in-game and in the promotional material. I spent an embarrassing amount of time figuring out which it was! (Technically you could argue that it's a cravat because of the way it's tied, but there's too much ruffle there, to me it's a clear jabot!)
We're not all alone in thinking that! I think there's a small community who feel that Maria had feelings for Adeline. Part of why it's all so tragic is because of the situation they were goth is, they could never be together.
Agreed. And yet there's so many I've seen who vehemently deny it, and wished she "went back" to Gherman. Even her pistol, the Evelyn, suggests she may have had feeling towards women given its description says it was named for a woman, and she is the only wielder we see.
@@Donovaneagle2098 Ooh I love this theory about the pistol! The description says that it was widely used and popular with the knights of Cainhurst, but one could theorize that Maria was the first to invent it once she became a hunter modeling it after the Hunter Pistol to scale better with her high Bloodtinge abilities and named it after her dear Evelyn since she is the only wielder of it. Combining Hunter and Cainhurst attire and equipment in that way fits with her garb's relation to the Knight Set.
Many Women can't understand Mens ability to "see" only the best qualities of the women in our life, but you see examples of men who can treat their spouse as though they are perfect even to this day. Now it is considered putting one on a pedestal and is seen as obsession, once it was romantic and expected. When a man loves a woman, she can do no wrong
Gehrman still doesn't see Maria for all that she is as a person, only his vision of her. In the way we see him treating the Doll (and in the Doll's clothing item description) it's meant to feel off-putting and disturbing, because it is.
honestly, this is the only lady maria lore video i can watch. nobody else acknowledges her complex feelings/relationship with adeline, or sympathizes with gehrmans position or implies maria returned his feelings and it breaks my heart. not to mention how detailed and well thought out it is! i always come back to it when im thinking of her
This is my favourite Lady Maria lore video BY FAR. This is the only video that treats Maria as a multifaceted character and the doll as Gerhman’s ideas of women rather that as a 1:1 recreation of Maria. Super insightful and nice to see.
Thank you, Darrell! In all honesty, I made this video because I was waiting for someone else to explore these exact ideas. Judging by the way that dreams and nightmares work in Bloodborne (I talk about this more in the Gods and Nightmares video on my channel), the Great Ones listen when the people in this world appeal to them and often answer their prayers.
In Gehrman's case, his wish was to see a Hunter's Workshop exactly as he experienced it in its best days with Maria by his side. The problem was that the image of Maria he had projected into his mind was a false one. It wasn't really who she was, it was the idea he had in his head of what her identity was to him.
It always annoyed me, to be honest, when people also projected the Doll's personality onto Maria. (I think this is because when you have a woman's experience, you see this happening to you by other people. This has certainly happened to me.)
Neither of these theories are exactly proven, but I feel like she had a mix of the Doll's gentleness with Maria's fierceness as we see her in the nightmare. Both are relevant to her. She's multi-faceted, just as you said, and that's one of the many details I adore about her character. This video is a love letter to her (and to From Software for making such an outstanding game.)
I'm not sure why you consider this "Gehrman's ideas of *women* "
They are Gehrman's idea of *Maria*
He doesn’t really talk to her that often, he doesn’t really see her as ideal but rather a failed recreation of Maria
I was about to pen basically that last part! Incredible insight
Also Adeline's phrase "Lady Maria _never_ approved, but I am proud to have been a Blood Saint" may hint that Maria knew her before the Research Hall and even tried to dissuade her from becoming a Blood Saint, which adds another level of tragedy to their relationship.
Definitely. I've never gotten that dialogue before and it kills me because I love that bit of lore.
So this is my favorite lore video on Lady Maria. You touched on a lot of things no one else has really gone into so much. I really love Jerk Sans Frontier, and I love his video on the Doll/Maria but he implied that Gherman was disgusted or repulsed by the doll and didn't really elaborate. I really like how you explained it. He made this fantasy version of Maria in his mind, and when that fantasy came to life he realized he hadn't being seeing the real Maria, the one he cared for. So I think with Gherman it's not repulsion he feels for the doll itself, but disgust for himself and the version of Maria he had a mania for. The doll made him confront that. I don't know if anything I said made sense, but you put it well and I really loved your video on it.
That's wonderful, I'm glad you liked the video! I agree with Gehrman's assessment of the Doll. With the help of the Moon Presence, he brought to life what he felt was Maria's essence and realized to his horror that he was wrong. It's like the old legends about wishing on a monkey's paw where the person gets what he wished for, but when the desires come to life, he discovers that the realized wish is exaggerated.
I know I'm 2 years late but that's what I think as well. We really, really need more feminine perspective in the video games industry.
@@Michela So Gherman basically did not rationally understood María well. Because it'd make no sense that he would react and perceive them differently if they didn't have differences in personality traits
Between the fact that killing the Orphan of Kos eases Gehrman's sleep, and the fact that the Orphan's sobs sound exactly like Gehrman's, it's obvious that there's a connection between Gehrman and the Orphan.
Personally I believe that, even though the scholars and hunters all took part in the violation of Kos and the Fishing Hamlet, it was Gehrman alone who violated the Orphan's corpse, perhaps pulling it from the corpse of Kos and cutting it open for the scholars to study.
That very well could be true, especially when you think that Gehrman is the most deeply haunted by Kos and her orphan.
Setting aside her story, I have to say that her boss fight might be my favorite of all time. The combination of the incredible music and her awesome fighting style gave me goosebumps.
I say Gehrman but ok
Maria and Slave Knight Gael are easily my favorite fights in the soulsborne series.
Its one hell of a fight, but I would have liked if they made it more difficult, It only took me 3 attempts I wanted to enjoy the fight longer
@@Nihilnoir It's because she can be stunlocked. At the very least, they should've disabled summons for the fight.
@@definitelynotanAIchatbot I feel like another phase (health bar) would've been great
Both Maria and Gehrman lived for the hunt and for the knowledge that comes with it.
It was impossible for him not to notice her prowess with a blade or her academic achievements while she was next to him covered in blood witnessing the same things he was witnessing and learning from him.
In a dark world of nightmare and horrors she was his light, she was the one he would do anything to save...but he failed,
The only way to cope with this reality was to create the doll, an innocent version of Maria, removed from danger, horror and gore.
In his own way, he tried to offer her the life he wished she had, even if that life was a dream within a dream .
I find it difficult to accept that Miyazaki would make one of the main characters of the story, "The First Hunter"", to be some stereotypical drooling idiot who is incapable of comprehending the complexity of a human being, especially the human being he falls in love with. .
Finally someone who can see Gehrman fairly
I love this take, I agree. It's all borne out of his grief over her suicide and the various forms of love he felt for her, which were never requited. He made the doll what he wanted to hold on to, what he wanted to protect in the safety of the dream... and the Great One answered his prayer.
I think its a bit of both, but I think this take forfeits the aspect of Gehrman's disdain for the doll after creation if it was truly something he wished she could have been.
Gehrman isn't stupid. He's a man in a story of men who view and torture women as malleable incubators - and their babies as tools - to obtain eldritch enlightenment.
Gehrman is a man who has a "mania" for his own *student* with an obvious age gap, who suggests the player can fuck the innocent doll modeled after said student, and (easter egg) keeps books on "how to pick up fair maidens" (which is clearly a dev joke, but tells their perspective on Gehrman's salacious behavior.)
At the least his view of her, how he wished she should have lived, is being an endlessly doting servant for him.
Whether or not he was present, witness or even retroactively appreciative to the depth of Lady Maria, this was far from a deep and noble love..
I really liked the explanation you gave about Gehrman only seeing a caricature of Lady Maria, and transposing his memories of her into the doll, which turned out to be futile. I don't think I've heard an explanation as in depth as this, good job!
Thank you so much, I appreciate it!
It never occurred to me that she possibly had romantic feelings for Adeline. That’s a really good observation.
Seeing the key item description, that's all I could think of!
I know this is really old, so i do not know if any of you will even read this but I am gonna share my thoughts anyway.
As Maria is clearly linked to Gehrman in a romantic way through the words "Great Admiration for Gehrman" and Gehrman's "Mania" and also the doll, I do not think that Maria has romantic affections for Adilene. Maria takes care of the patients, so as you say, she is more of a mother for the patients and atoning for her mistakes in her own way.
Another thing to note is that the boss in the garden is named "living failures", so maybe maria was sending Adilene there as a failed patient. Giving her the key to go herself is odd, but maybe Maria could not bear it to send her dearest patient off. Who knows, maybe the living failures boss only exists because Maria did not kill any of the failed patients.
Toby Kami I always felt that it was a one sided love affair. That she may have respected him, possibly loved him, but wasn’t in love with him. He was obsessed with her to the point a doll was created in her image. I also don’t think he loved her, more like, he loved the idea of her. My reasoning behind that is again the doll. As Maria's standin for the dream, is basically a simplified, idealized version of her that existed in Gehrman's obsessed mind: a loving, non-judgemental caregiver who lived only for "the hunter". Mania isn’t love. It’s a very unstable twisted version of it and is typically always one side.
@@Ur1Mel1
Exactly, as a caregiver you can love someone but not in the romantic sense but rather the way you love your parents, friends and most importantly children. Love in that you always wish them good, try to protect them from harm, and genuinely care for them.
Gross
I cried when I figured out her story the first time in any game has made me cry. Maybe because I can some what relate to her story but that even in death she will do any thing to stop hunters from making her mistakes and and save them from the eternal nightmare while leaving herself trapped and undying in there. Maria and gherman are my favourite bosses in the soulsborne games because they are both so human and don’t fight for honour,revenge,hatred or bloodlust but because they want to save you from becoming trapped in the nightmare or the dream
This is by far the best video essay on UA-cam detailing the lore behind Lady Maria. Thank you so much for making this.
Thank you very much for your comment! I'm glad you took the time to watch the video. Maria is such a dear character to me and I wanted to do her justice.
Adeline was also given the option of jumping off the balcony as a sort of mercy,- my hunch on “she couldn’t fathom her intentions.”
Maria is such a fascinating character. I wish that FromSoft was able to utilize more of Lady Maria as seen in the cut dialogue that Sanadsk released.
I've also heard that the Old Hunter's Bone could have come from one of the Beasthunter's Saif hunters in the hunter's nightmare. (That's alot of hunter's) I can't remember if he actually uses quickening or not but I do remember that he is unique in that he doesn't have a gun and wears Gehrman's hat along with the decorative old hunter's set.
I also would love to have seen more dialogue from her or perhaps a memory, but that isn't always FromSoft's style. From the cut content, she used to be less 3-dimensional in my opinion. I feel like since they cut the unnecessary bits and gave her story more of a "punch" as you see in her final cutscene, her presence ended up having much more power. That's interesting about the Saif hunter! Many of the Old Hunters used Quickening apparently without using an item, you could definitely argue that it could have belonged to any of them. What makes this bone to be more closely related is that it's found at the Hunter's Nightmare gravestone in the Dream, the one that the Doll specifically prays at, as if she feels a connection to it.
Wow ur insight must be high I never realized the similarities between the knight set and Lady Maria was so similar
Thank you!! Since I felt like so much of Bloodborne's lore had been discovered already, one of the first details that I looked into and thought was underappreciated was the fashion and costume design. It turns out they have lore and historical implications, so I'm glad to have taken that path.
Ok this is easily the best Maria lore video out there. The low view count is shameful! Great work.
Thank you so much. Lady Maria is by far my favorite character and I spent an astonishing amount of time researching this, so I appreciate it!
The view count is quite impressive when compared to the amount of subs.
Definitely a very underated channel though.
Simon's last words on the fishing village may indeed confirm that the fisherman cursed them using the great one, as he says something along the line of "we are cursed, why do we have to pay for the sins of our ancestors"
Absolutely!
Little thing you missed, its likely that the hunter's nightmare made her weaker, Kos's form of retribution and torture was to force her to rely on the blood blades she detested, and yet, like everything she sought to achieve in life, no matter her effort the world kept it's boot on her neck, her master thought of her as little more than a nice body, her hunting career ending in her murdering hundreds of innocents and defiling Kos's body, and her attempt to help the patients meant nothing, everything she worked so hard for and it all ended with her own suicide. Her pressure blades cast away, the patients she cared for all doomed to die horrible deaths. Its not a coincidence she's so close to the living failures. her life was a failure, but not for lack of effort.
The blood in Maria's chalices is her own blood, and the description of the third Brain Fluid indicates that ultimately, Maria fell due to her own actions.
Maria is the only character referred to as Lady, and Lady is the feminine form of Lord. This means she's not just a mere relative of the Vilebloods but rather holds some monarchical rights, although she was never considered a queen since Annalise holds that position. It's most likely that Lady Maria was the true Pthumerian queen of her time, which implies some form of authority associated with her.
Lady Maria strongly resembles Joan of Arc, representing a woman ahead of her time yet still connected to the sacred mysteries of a church. Perhaps she was judged as a messenger of the gods or feared. The fact that she represents a virtuous vision of a Vileblood hunter supporting the Church creates a transitional and conflicting image. It seems her ultimate fate is deeply connected to this ambiguity, but instead of ending in a bonfire, she ultimately embraces her position as a Vileblood.
That's the significance of Lady Maria's death - a Vileblood who would naturally be an enemy of the Church but worked for it in seeking a solution to the Beastly Scourge. In the end, she discovered she was part of what caused the scourge, leading her to resent her own fate, isolate herself, and ultimately accept the inevitable truth that she's a Vileblood murderer like all the others.
Regarding Kos, it's said that the Lingering Curse emanating from the rotting remains of Kos on the beach is the source of all greatness. Therefore, all power centers around Kos, originating from the bottomless Curse. So, the involvement of the earliest hunters in an assault against Kos isn't just a speculative theory. It's most likely that Byrgenwerth created Kos, and while the creation led them to Eldritch discoveries and contact, the thirst for power resulted in the transgression that generated the curse, metamorphoses, and everything else.
Awesome, detailed video! Loved your comments and imput! Just to present another way of looking at it, I always interpreted Maria's relationship with Adeline and patients as a mother might with children addicted to a substance, Adeline being like an older child she was closer to. When I read "couldn't fathom her intentions," I read it sort of on the lines of a mother attempting to ease her child's pain from an addiction (in this case, to the brain fluid and her slow descent into madness) but Adeline was so caught up in being worth something more, she couldn't understand why Maria wouldn't want the same. Considering you find wilted flowers about, the words of the patients, and other patients out in the gardens, I always assumed she attempted to do the same for the others, but eventually felt helpless in her attempts. Just a thought! Again, great video!
NyraLunaEXE omg same!!! I’m glad somebody else thinks so too.
Thanks! You can easily interpret Maria and Adeline's relationship that way. I definitely see metaphors here and there to addiction throughout Bloodborne. The Research Hall could certainly be a reflection of that.
The script for this video is so well written
Thank you so much!
I feel so late to this video! pouring through them all.
@2:55 incredible read on Gehrman's one-way obsession with Maria =/= Maria's multifaceted humanity. Subconsciously I always felt this, but you just put it to words excellently.
I know I'm just saying what a lot of others have already said, but between @Michela, @SinclairLore, @HoneyBat, and @Miss_chalice, the insight gap I've experienced from fem exclusion in gaming is filling over the brim as i discover more and more from this awesome content!
tyty for making it
This is so sweet! I'm glad you're getting into my Bloodborne videos! To this day these are my favorites and I'm proud of them. I definitely saw a rift between what Gehrman saw of Maria and who she actually was. This is why the Doll ends up being so unsettling to him (and why we as players feel put off by how he treats her in-game.) He couldn't capture who Maria was because he never fully saw her as a person. This happens in real life too!
I hear you, and I'm glad you mentioned names like Sinclair and Zulie! I love both of their channels.
I feel like I should comment this, did anyone see this or not.
I just started playing Bloodborne three days ago after an over four years break when I played the game with my former friend with voice chat and therefore the chatting took away from the story.
After I had slain 4 "Bosses" the game was left alone 'cause we moved on something else. It's worth mentioning that Bloodborne is my first Soulsborne game.
Between that "break" from the game (I doubted I'd ever be able to play it through without guidance) I started writing my Thesis as a scriptwriter/director and fell in love with Lovecraft's literary philosophy of Cosmicism and the way he portrayed Cosmic Horror in the Weird-tales scene in 1920's.
I wanted to create a academic study around the question "Can Cosmic Horror be adapted into silver screen without breaking the Lovecraft's philosophy.
It took three and a half years of research of different other philosophical texts, theology, mythologies, genres of horror alongside with Audiovisual studies and philosophies to create my own philosophy which lend ideas from philosophers like Renee Descartes, Jean Baudrillard, Plato and Aristotle fused with Sumerian, Finnish and Norse mythologies and theologies from Judaist cabals to Minism. I succeeded on the question and wrote two screenplays to prove it. It was according Harvard's database which our Uni is connected, unique, no one had ever done an actual academic study on the subject and this was confirmed via checking by several lecturers.
The crazy thing is that Bloodborne had proven practically 80% of the research seven years earlier and I didn't know about it because I doubted my gaming abilities to the extent where any Soulsborne game seem'd like a fever dream to complete. I have fell in love with this game. I was obsessed by that one question three and a half years to the point where I couldn't sleep properly. Now I can see it in interactive format and it's hard to describe the feeling I have while playing this game. All I really wanted from the play through was to familiarize myself to the Souls-like combat system 'cause Elden Ring intrigues me so much. What I got was something beyond joy.
I absolutely adore this channel due the deep understanding, precise explanation and last but not least the presentation! The atmosphere is great and narration fits with the imagery perfectly!
So Kudos Michela, you got a new subscriber even though I'm commenting on 5 years old video!
Thank you so much, Joni! I'm impressed you did your thesis based on cosmic horror. What you did must've been fascinating work.
I'm so glad you rediscovered Bloodborne after all this time and that the Souls/Borne/Ring games are bringing you joy. That's the point of it all. I love finding answers to the questions the game poses, and thinking on those that will always remain unanswered.
I'm still proud of these lore videos the most, so even years later, I appreciate your comment and the sentiment.
@@Michela All I can say is that it was exhausting, consuming yet interesting to the point where I’m following through it and start to create from that study.
Bloodborne captured the essence of Cosmic Horror almost without flaws, but those flaws in the subject matter are the ones that the medium requires.
Do I dare to expect that there would be Elden ring lore videos coming at some point as well? I would love to see your take on that!
@@Joni_Tarvainen I'd even say that Bloodborne improves on its cosmic horror predecessors by turning the genre on its head. Instead of fearing otherness, Bloodborne embraces it. It's an incredible piece of media.
With lore, I tend to do it based on whether I get inspired by a character or aspect of the story. I'm still very early into the game, but I'd love to dive further into the lore if I get that level of inspiration. Until then, I want to do some early impressions, reviews, and boss lists once I finish.
Took me until yesterday to realise your meant to kill the phantom in the Kos arena.
I don't blame you; there really isn't any way of knowing unless you go back to Kos and investigate!
Lady Maria's dialogue is especially what makes it more certain to me that she committed suicide.
"Oh I know very well, how the secrets beckon so sweetly" implies that she herself has experienced the curiosities that our hunter as well as Simon experience, and so she went into the nightmare to find out the secrets of the church and their predecessors from Bergynwerth.
"Only an honest death will cure you now" implies that she has likely undergone a dishonest death, hence suicide. She may well have been the one to leave the lumenflowers at the gravestone near the Lighthouse hut in the Fishin Hamlet.
All things considered, I think it's safe to say that Gehrman was not only involved with the Church's formation, but also could well have been the one responsible for the death of Kos. He is described as The First Hunter so he may have hunted Kos. To find that her master was responsible for such a grave sin must have devastated Maria. Hence with that mind I believe she was not involved in the tragedy that went on in the Fishing Hamlet, she may have not even been old enough to be hunter at that point, because she's young when we meet her whereas Gehrman is old which implies that these were the ages in which these two entered the nightmare. Her regret in regards to whoever is in that picture may be related to the previous host of the Hunter's Nightmare. I've speculated about this before in a twitter thread but the jist of it is that I believe that Gehrman and Maria are likely their respective Dream worlds' hosts, holding a position akin to Micolash in the Nightmare of Mensis. The second ending of the game also implies that a host can be replaced. To me I feel like Micolash and Gehrman were both the first of their own Dream Worlds' hosts but Maria likely wasn't. Whoever was the first host of the Hunter's Nightmare stood guard at the clocktower before to protect the secret of the Church/Bergynwerth and tried to stop Maria at all costs, but failed which lead to Maria going into the Fishing Hamlet and getting embraced by the Orphan as a new host. Even if she herself was not responsible for the horrible things that happened in the village, shouldering the sins of your predecessors is a strong them in The Old Hunters' DLC and to me that shows she still exhibits the qualities you talked about in the end in regards to atonement. From her suicide attempt she discovered that a host can not simply leave through suicide and that idea is supported by the fact that Gehrman remained in the Hunter's Dream for so long, longing for relief without committing suicide, but still he's too kind of a man to let someone else kill him and take on his role. Tonight, Gehrman Joins the Hunt.
lol, that last line was kinda cheesy. Also, sorry if my thoughts are kinda scrambled cuz I wrote the comment before finishing the video and came back to add other stuff in the middle after finishing the video.
No worries, I'm happy to have the discussion! Honestly, my first gut reaction was that Maria may not have even wanted to take part in what happened with the Fishing Hamlet, but I believe that at the very least she was there to see it and was disgusted by either her own actions or the simple act of witnessing what her peers were doing.
With the level of guilt she experienced, I now feel that she took part and then experienced the intense regret later. She could have been overcome with the thirst for knowledge that a Great One might bring or even the Hunter's thirst for violence, but that's something that we can only wonder about. It could have gone any of these ways, but I strongly feel that at least she was there in the moment.
The honest death part is interesting too. I didn't think of it that way, but then again I don't see her suicide as a dishonest death either, only that she couldn't bear the pain any longer. The honest death could have been referring to the hunter being killed while still maintaining some level of "innocence" or otherwise not knowing about the depth of the previous hunters' crimes.
I completely agree that they're each the hosts of their own nightmares like Micolash, exactly as you said. Their consciousnesses power each respective dream.I think in Maria's case, the villagers sucked their area into a nightmare as punishment for what the hunters did to them, appealing in chants to the Great Ones. When Maria died, she was there too because she was either involved or otherwise present in the Hamlet. I believe that this also applies to Ludwig and Laurence, since they're also specifically in the Nightmare. You make a fascinating point though, that she might have chosen to become the host to shoulder the responsibilities. It's something she would do.
Also, I love your UA-cam name, it's too perfect.
This is a great video! I'm writing an essay kind of similar to this because replaying Bloodborne has given me a much greater appreciation for Maria, the Doll, and their relationship w/ each other & Gehrman. It's great to hear another woman's perspective on this & it's especially great to hear someone else acknowledge the possibility of Maria having romantic feelings for Adeline! Can't wait to see more from you
Thank you so much! I'm glad you're writing a similar essay, I genuinely love great Bloodborne content and I'm sure it will be a great addition! With Adeline, it took until the second or third time I played. After reading the Balcony Key description, I had an epiphany and thought, "Hey, maybe there's something to Maria's 'intentions!'" I don't necessarily take it as canon as much as it is a suggestion, but it's not too far of a stretch of the imagination. 😉
I found Gehrman far more fascinating than Maria. I mean where else can you find a final boss, being a lonely old man, with a pleasure doll (in the image of his student) in his closet. He's a endearing guy, cuz unlike most others in Yahrnem, He helps you to the best of his ability, while also being a joking tragic figure, with a love interest in maria. The man seems alot more human then most Fromsoft characters. That bit you said about Gehrman's feeling towards the doll was spot on.
I appreciate the insight, I agree on many points! Everyone will have different characters that they're most interesting, and Gehrman is more than worthy of that. He's by far one of the most interesting when you look deeply at his personality and motivations. I even feel like he was thrown under the bus by Laurence and the others. He's stuck in the dream hoping to be rescued, but nobody comes for him. Whether that's because they left him behind or because they became waist deep in their own problems is unknown, but no matter how you slice it, it's a tragic situation. Even when he has the chance to pass the torch onto you to become the next guardian, he'll fight you with the best of his abilities before letting that happen, even though he wants nothing else but liberation.
And Gwyn, was even better, and never said a word.Dont know if you've played Dark souls. he was more of a active participant than Gehrman, hows more a victim of happenstance, Then Gwyn how desperately tried to fix the word, but probably only made it worse. Bloodborne's world is more concise, grounded, but the theme of life, and how it will all eventually end, hit me a bit harder then Bloodborne nihilism
SVAR
I feel like because of Miyazaki all of these are great opinions I feel like Gherman was a masterclass in character design as he is tragic in a sheakspearean way but after the old hunters he becomes that much more tragic (and the fact that this was a one off story from Miyazaki) through his backstory and love for lady Maria. As awesome as Maria may be I think Gherman gets even more human and interesting having loved then after those tragic events after koz was found not only was banished from the church, he lost his love to suicide, and then when called upon once again to help in the final hours of dispair becomes the harbinger of death through the moon presence and now is lost in the hunters dream watching hunters come and go until they go insane or he puts the out of their misery. I also feel like the reason he fights you is he has no choice if the moon presence chose Gherman as a host I’m sure it was using him as a vessel at that point. Gwynn is epic but as he was instrumental in the rise of man and all things in the light of the flame but he also killed all the dragons and arch trees to suit his lifestyle which is self serving to terraform the world so you and your buds can rule as gods of all things. I love the Souls series I started on Demons Souls early, so I still feel like false king allant was the most terrifying and epic fight out of all the main protagonists in the Souls series.. soul level drain!
I wish I found this sooner, great work on Maria. This is why she's one of my favorite game characters. Even though we are only given glimpses of who she was. These glimpses speak volumes.
They truly do!
Awesome video ! Maria's my favorite character in all of the Soulsborne series, she's so interesting :)
Thank you! I feel exactly the same way. Maria is my all-time favorite.
*Deals on Wheels guy from DS2 cries*
This is the best analysis of Lady Maria I’ve seen yet and probably one of the best bb lore vids out there! Kudos!
Thank you so much!
the score, the cinematic camera movements, your thorough and unique perspective...
certainly the best bloodborne lorehunter around. thank you
Thank you! I'm glad you appreciated it 😊
I keep seeing guys fascinated by lady Maria who seem to make the exact mistake as Gehrman did.
I think I know exactly what you mean.
Murder?
i loved this video! thank you for making it :) can't get enough bloodborne content.
Very awesome video, Michela! You presented me with so many new thoughts I completely overlooked thank you for blessing me with insight
Thanks Tyler! We could all use more eyes 😉
I think the old hunter bone IS Gehrman's. From his leg. It just BELONGED to an apprentice at some point or other, but it was still Gehrman's bone.
Great video. Very insightful for someone like me who doesn't spend much time or thought trying to discover all of the fascinating lore in this game. Keep up the great work. 👍
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it!
I’ve been looking for lore analysis that goes deep and you are blowing my mind with these videos. A lot of what I thought I knew was surface level. Damn, this video is great!
I'm happy you enjoyed it!
Great video, i was searching for bloodborne lore video and i'm not dissapointed !
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Just stumbled on your video right now and I must say I love it through and through liked and subscribe 100% keep up the good work!! :D
Please do more lore videos! Loved this video
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it! I have a few more lore videos, one about Ebrietas and the other about Great Ones and Nightmares
Just discovering this now 6 years later, great summation and reading of Maria. It's good to have a female perspective on some of these things I wouldn't I have thought of myself. Reminds me of Honey Bat's amazing video on The Visceral Femininity of Bloodborne.
Lady Maria had special care for Adeline because she was a once a Blood Saint. Her blood was unique and the Church valued the few Saints who managed to turned out well.
Dang, this was amazing. Thank you. ❤️
The doll was designed to be a fake mother to the child they used to call to the moon presence, a fake mother to replace Queen Cainhurst's given the umbilical chord. Given the blood on the altar in the hunter's dream, gerhman's refusal to look at it, and his disdain for the doll. . . .The child died when the moon presence was called, and the doll was given the personality of the caring mother she was designed to be, instead of the Maria she looks like. This is also why dolls like her were used in the menses nightmare.
I love how the game takes multiple people to piece together. . .Maria is probably aware her likeness was used to fashion a surrogate mother for a surrogate child
Lovely video, Maria is definitely an interesting character even if I find myself agreeing with Sander in saying that Gehrman is far more intriguing, because I find him 'pathetic' in a very human and relatable sort of way. He was skilled but he's not a hero, not a saviour nor someone who tried to redeem himself (at least, not before the Dream) and he's not someone with a complicated backstory to be told. He's not of noble blood, he's not special in any way nor particularly nice to have around since the writers intentionally gave him creepy old man vibes in his infamous 'should it please you' line. Maybe I just like ugly and unpleasant people :P
I can totally see why you decided to present the Maria/Adeline thing as a lore theory because there's clearly evidence to be found, but at the same time I noticed that most people that support this idea have the tendency to omit all the clues that point towards the other significant relationship Maria had with someone we are aware of, AKA the one with Gehrman and I was a bit disappointed in finding out that your video is no exception. The hair ornament, how the doll reacts to it and the fact that the picture Maria smashed is taken from the fireplace shelf in the Workshop are clear hints of how close to her heart the days she spent with the Old Hunters were. Even without going into the romantic side of it, I feel like Maria's deep respect for Gehrman is too often pushed to the side or completely ignored. Same thing goes for Gehrman's respect and understanding of who Maria was, in my opinion.
The Tear Blood Gem item description reads:
"Created from a shining silver doll tear, this blood gem is a quiet but unfaltering friend that continually restores HP, the life essence of a hunter. Perhaps the doll's creator had wished for just such a friend, albeit in vain."
Which I believe to be the clearer clue about what Gehrman's intentions were when he made the Doll. He didn't want a 'sex doll' nor a servant, but a friend. Which is what Maria was most likely to him in life considering that she never knew about his more 'intimate' feelings towards her.
Thank you so much for the comment! I actually follow you on Deviantart and LOVE your Bloodborne fan art so much, it always makes me happy to see your new pieces. I agree with you that the relationship between Gehrman and Maria is under-stated, and I could have gone into more detail. I don't believe that they had a romantic connection, but I feel strongly that they were close and spent a significant amount of time together. The emotion that the Doll feels from the comb and Gehrman's deep sense of mourning are excellent points to attest to that.
Gehrman is a fascinating character, there's no doubt about it. I honestly feel badly for him, he was left alone away from his peers and the one he loved the most. He tried to be with her in any way that he possibly could, even if he could never tell him herself. His desire led him to making the Doll, who is closely related to Maria, but didn't encompass her fully. I agree with you also in that I don't think she was made as a "sex doll," but more of a replica to try and emulate as much of Maria's essence as Gehrman could possibly manifest along with the Moon Presence.
I'm glad to see more contributions to the conversation, I love talking about this game!
Thank you so much for the kind words! Glad to hear that you enjoy my art :D
Since I draw Gehrman and Maria together a lot, people tend to assume that I believe (or want) the 'ship' to be canon but that can't be far from the truth XD. Lore-wise speaking, I absolutely agree with you about the romantic connection *not* being a thing, at least not on Maria's part, but I am fascinated by their relationship nevertheless.
Bloodborne is easily one of my favourite games of all time and its complex characters are probably the major reason why I like it so much. Each of them enhances and further explores the themes of the plot... Ludwig embodies the 'noble' side of the Healing Church, Alfred, the Executioners and Adella its blind religious zealotry, Micolash is basically the ultimate example of what tampering with 'forbidden knowledge' does to people in Lovecraftian horror and so on. Dark/Demon Souls never felt as focused and well-executed as far as the theme goes despite having really good and interesting ideas.
So yeah, I could definitely spend hours and hours chatting about how awesome and deep Bloodborne is XD
Looking forward your future videos on the game!
Well Done!!
Thank you so much! It makes me happy to know people still watch my lore videos
Very good video.
Explained very well
Thanks!
This is another brilliant video agin.
Something to point out is the warped topography of the nightmare and how the areas in the nightmare have clearly been ripped from reality meaning we don't know they're original placements in yharnam geographically. I wonder what came first the construction of the research hall or the assault on the fishing hamlet. It might seem like a superfluous question but it's answer would profoundly affect the nature of maria's character. Was she first a carer who looked after the chearches experiments slowly becoming detached from the hunters life before being called on one last hunt to sly kos or did she retroactively assume the carer role in atonement?
It makes me wonder how involved she was in the experiments themselves and her views on the church? Nothing hints at her being anymore than a kind and loving caring figure to the patients. Though we know very well how dreams and nightmares can warp reality based based on a collective perception be it correct or otherwise?
I personally don't think she was with German and the other hunters when fighting Kos instead tossing her weapon in disgust at the actions of herself and her fellow hunters leaving them to their fate and breaking Geherman's heart leading to him longing for her after this?
One important possibility with the doll's dialogue about Maria is that as the doll and the Maria in the dream are connected. (Further proof of the dream and nightmare being bond) it could also mean that a part of her is trapped within the doll? interesting how that caring part of her is all that's remembered and enshrined of her. the rest of her true self forgotten to time along with her name. This shallow caricature of her being a perspective of her created by Gehrman and sustained in the minds that all who met her by the moon presence?
You did a brilliant job with this just thought i'd add my thoughts as i did on the Ebritas video and the gods and nightmares vid. I hope my frequent input isn't annoying. My dyslexia sometimes means that the spelling and thusly coherency of my points are damaged somewhat but i hope it's still legible.
Another insightful comment, thank you! I don't think it's annoying. I love to hear people's feedback.
Judging by the events and overall tone, I believe that Maria started caring for the Research Hall patients after the siege on the Fishing Hamlet as atonement. I don't believe she was involved whatsoever in the experiments (there's a lost piece of dialogue from Adeline saying that Maria didn't approve of her becoming a blood saint, for example), but she was there to provide comfort and relief.
I think she renounced the hunt in the fishing hamlet (or possibly after - all we know is that she threw the Rakuyo in the well when she could stomach it no longer.)
I highly believe that the events of the research hall were the latter
Considering that the hall in the waking world is part of the *healing church* .
While the priest in the hamlet was cursing *Byrgenwerth* , so Gehrman and co did there crimes while still under the leadership of master Willem.
Hey, great video. Just a quick question, what's the name of the harpsichord tune playing at 10:20
Thanks! The piece is called Adagio in G Minor by Tomaso Albinoni (There's an interesting story to that track where it might not even be by Tomaso Albinoni and could be modern, but because it was passed off as Albinoni's work, it's considered public domain.)
@@Michela Brilliant, thanks! Also, just discovered your lore videos and I must say, there's some excellent observations in there. Thanks for the content
Sooo I'm new to Bloodborne but this lore video is awesome thank you...and let's be honest Maria is kinda a waifu
Thank you! And I agree, Maria is sword waifu.
this video should have six figure views well done
I came running at the mention of six figures, lol!! Thank you so much, I'm glad you liked the video! It's still one of my favorites that I've made.
Great vid
Thanks!
Lady Maria fucking badass she cool 😎 if I was a hunter I wish she make me a hunter 😇😍 she my favorite female character 😇
Great video ive recently got into the game and really enjoying it but my only issue is the story to Bloodborne seem so cryptic do you plan to make a video breaking the story down in detail? That would be great.
Thank you! I don't plan on breaking down the entire story, since I've seen it done rather well before. What I will continue to do is find parts of the story that haven't been quite touched upon yet and make videos on them, or if I feel that certain details or theories haven't been explored. There's so much to it that we're all still making discoveries!
What song did you start playing at around 10:20?
It's Tomaso Albinoni - Adagio in G minor, the harpsichord version
Thanks, Michela
She sure had some nerve trying to fight me after she slaughtered the people in the Fishing Hamlet
Wow, the algorithm gods brought me a lady (lore) hunter today. And it's someone that doesn't call a jabot a frilly tie or something. Pleasant surprise.
I'm glad you liked the video! There's a funny story about the jabot too! I spent the longest time trying to figure out whether it was a cravat or a jabot, since there were some differences in design in-game and in the promotional material. I spent an embarrassing amount of time figuring out which it was! (Technically you could argue that it's a cravat because of the way it's tied, but there's too much ruffle there, to me it's a clear jabot!)
I'm SO glad I'm not alone in thinking Maria had romantic feelings for Adeline. If only they'd been able to live together happily :(
We're not all alone in thinking that! I think there's a small community who feel that Maria had feelings for Adeline. Part of why it's all so tragic is because of the situation they were goth is, they could never be together.
Agreed. And yet there's so many I've seen who vehemently deny it, and wished she "went back" to Gherman. Even her pistol, the Evelyn, suggests she may have had feeling towards women given its description says it was named for a woman, and she is the only wielder we see.
@@Donovaneagle2098 Ooh I love this theory about the pistol! The description says that it was widely used and popular with the knights of Cainhurst, but one could theorize that Maria was the first to invent it once she became a hunter modeling it after the Hunter Pistol to scale better with her high Bloodtinge abilities and named it after her dear Evelyn since she is the only wielder of it. Combining Hunter and Cainhurst attire and equipment in that way fits with her garb's relation to the Knight Set.
nothing embracex about it, just worthlesx
Vaati who?? These more videos are on point
Many Women can't understand Mens ability to "see" only the best qualities of the women in our life, but you see examples of men who can treat their spouse as though they are perfect even to this day. Now it is considered putting one on a pedestal and is seen as obsession, once it was romantic and expected.
When a man loves a woman, she can do no wrong
Gehrman still doesn't see Maria for all that she is as a person, only his vision of her. In the way we see him treating the Doll (and in the Doll's clothing item description) it's meant to feel off-putting and disturbing, because it is.
i love you
honestly, this is the only lady maria lore video i can watch. nobody else acknowledges her complex feelings/relationship with adeline, or sympathizes with gehrmans position or implies maria returned his feelings and it breaks my heart. not to mention how detailed and well thought out it is! i always come back to it when im thinking of her