If ostracism is so painful and hurtful when you receive it from strangers, how much more if you receive it from beloved former friends and family members. It’s just brutal and cruel!
@@hangedman821 but for those of us raised in it, having your whole community and family taken away from you making you either isolate yourself or come back because you have nothing is a strange practice. Yeah alot of exjws may not actually care about one another, but sometimes its nice to know other people have had those feelings of isolation with the combined feeling of standing your ground for what you believe. Feeling worthless because everyone you have been told is your brother or sister has pushed you completely away for being an imperfect human is something that is hard for some people to grasp. Not trying to hate, just saying in the end there are some witnesses that would act like a so called worldly person regardless, so doesnt that mean we are all human and can afford the decency to see ourselves through someone elses eyes? We dont have to die for that person so to say but you can at least give them the respect and understanding that they can have their own viewpoint and dont need to be punished for it. Personally the only thing being a JW taught me is to not have any emotion because everything is worthless and temporary. I dont even care if my parents pass away and i dont get to see them before. And i supposedly love my parents id like to believe. But its a strange thing that many like me have an emotional disconnect when leaving the organization. Id still die for those so called friends that i knew and for my family, but thats probably because i want to just be a decent human being. Youre looking at things from a negative viewpoint. There are amazing friendships in the organization and outside of it, dont fool yourself into thinking that humans outside the witnesses aren't loving. We are all literally human, some of us have a common belief between us which makes us closer, but even if we dont have that common belief why should that stop us from still relating and forming a bond with another imperfect human? We are all doing our best, who are you to tell me that I am not?
Great interview Lloyd. I could see your thought turning within. After watching this, I can’t help but think of the lepers... no human should ever experience shunning. Just let them go...why the need to judge and punish. It hurt to hear that after while, the ostracism becomes its own creature surviving without reason.
Interesting point Hanged man. the ego of a damaged soul is so fragile . It seems to me there is a dichotomy in that those of us who are hurt and damaged are spoiling for a fight but won't take the bruises when we get punched. I use the internet as my quiet battle and even in the most unloaded comments people can be vicious. It is human nature . Also some are gracious . also human nature.
Amen i saw this happen 1st w my ex when he stoppedbeing a jw. It was crooked to me as an outsider. Now im experiencing it. My brother is a prosecuter. He does it for a living. Eek started w my dad moved on to me. My mom joined in. It hurts so bad. Slow and painful and i think theyll bully or they are doing it to my sis making her lie to hide now im feeling betrayed by her bc i got covid and she ignored me for weeks bc she was w him. (on the phone /contact). Ur w them or us mentality. Hes not even nice and talks down to her she just wants to be loved not in the middle. I used to be in her position. Shes fearful shell be shunned next. I find this all exceptionally hard to digest being that they have put me in the depression that I have helped them to evade for years. Somehow im not allowed to be sad after being ostracized in a strategic way in order so i dont get defensive or sad bc im lied to bc i was abused. Its mental gymnastics.
Greyshader I experienced it first hand but I can explain what it feels like n how to avoid it. Yes you heard me right you can overlook it n get right past it. It is all in the mind. It is a state of mind. People ostracized usually think in a negative manner. Which shouldn't be the case. We shouldn't be looking for others validation. We can always correct our flaws through self introspection n humans always have the resources to survive without a herd unlike the old time where strength was in numbers. Now we have many things to be done and places to be to think about rejection n in a way if you go to think about there is a chance that you have rejected someone because things weren't working out. So it is the same in the case of ostracision where things aren't working out between the grp n you. We are so programmed to get things working that we rejoin the same group that discarded us. N set unrealistic expectations of having their attention which when unmet leaves us disappointed. But in the event of a connect or incase you vibe or get their attention it won't take you long before you realise that things aren't working out. N it is awkward for both the parties (u n the grp). So ostracision is a defense mechanism keeping you away from people that cannot connect. We have given so much importance to socialising n have unrealistic expectations for likeability. We want to be the star of the show n the life of a party. We aren't ready to get sidelined or third wheeled so whem it happens it leaves us devastated. We need to learn how to cope up with rejection. IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD . Rejection just teaches us to look at other places. Ostracision does the same. It teaches us to look at other places for friends and acquaintances. Incase you force yourself to a grp that isn' very comfortable you won't be comfortable either.
Matt 958 Well, I see your point, but I don’t think it’s that black and white. Belonging within our social groups is a very primal thing that is extremely hard wired into us as human beings, and that’s why ostracism in any form is so painful. It’s not just in our heads. Shame is one of the most all-consuming physical sensations you can experience, and that’s because it’s not just an emotion. It’s also a survival instinct to conform to a certain set of social standards. We often feel it as a result of small (or maybe large) forms of ostracism, or a failure to live up to those standards/norms. You can’t just get rid of it by finding a different group. The need to feel acceptance within our groups isn’t something that will ever go away. It’s been there since the beginning.
@@riahray Ohh yes the basic need to socialise is what drives us insane. It is so innate that when we can't meet the basic needs everything feels out of order. It is frustrating on so many levels knowing that you are discarded everywhere you go. It all shows the tolerance of society as a whole. Not a lot when it comes to accomodating different people. Ostracision is a very common thing now. It is infuriating to see that everyone shares the same toxic opinion like as tho this whole planet lost its reasoning power overnight. However the reason I told to adopt a coping mechanism is because there is usually no way around ostracision. So the only way to escape further awkwardness and ridicule is to withdraw from interactions as a whole. Now while the drive kicks in hard. The drive to communicate and socialise you soon learn to let go of that urge. Which is not a bad thing because you finally realise the amount of energy you spent it communicating and what you receive most discarded people stop searching because the pattern is so similar and they are discarded from so many places for no fault of their own that they are eventually discouraged to the point where they don't try anymore.
Lloyd you channel just keeps getting better.....this is so informative ..my dear elderly mother is finally awake...and I didn't have to do much but show her all you do.big thank you Lloyd... Bless you and all your family💕
Congratulations on your mom. My mom woke up at age 80 and she died at 91. She was a JW for 30 years. I would tell her for years about she was in the wrong until at age 80 she needed blood. We convinced her to take it or she will die. She took it and got shunned. She got born again Christian and my church and redidacated her life to receive Jesus Christ and died at 91.
@@suejoyful5576 This is suvh wonderful news. Before fading I used to look around my congregation at older ones 70 and over and wonder if they could ever wake up. Should be interesting to hear her waking up story
My mother is 77 years old and woke up 2 years ago. Because of this, her only living sibling won't speak to her. They were inseparable before. It's so sad.
The governing body are so hypocritical when it comes to shunning because I was once reading a watchtower article about a muslim woman who wanted to become a Jehovah Witness but her Muslim family shunned her and in the article it was saying how awful it is that her family was shunning her. So in the governing body's eyes, it's unacceptable to shun someone who wants to become a Jehovah Witness from another religion but if a Jehovah Witness wants to leave the religion then that's not ok. Such double standard's and it's pure blackmail. 😡😡😡
Both are evil cults. In fact when used to preach, one of the points that I could see was the common tactics between Islam and Watchtower. Shunning was one of them
You nailed it! And how genius to take on the name Jehovah's Witnesses. When people choose to leave, believing members emotionally manipulate them by saying the person left Jehovah, rather than the truth that they left this man made organization. Horrific emotional blackmail and many become agnostic because they are blackmailed into thinking God has left them, or they commit suicide. The Governing Body will have its day of reckoning for their bloodguilt.
The Frisbee experiment: what a great way of demonstrating the cruelty and absolute disconnection experienced through shunning. Anyone - even if they haven't experienced shunning - can imagine the visible and stark exposure to meanness and isolation through this example.
The frisbee experiment just showed me that collective associates/friends are tolerant of a newbie but will dismiss you when you no longer fit or serve their purpose. In jdubland its the love bombing until they baptize you. then the armslength ostracism starts. If you never fit their ideal profile there is the many levels of social shunning. Maybe that initial gut reaction in the frisbee experiment should warn us don't invest any emotional energy in this dynamic . Pain is always a warning .
Have you tried enrolling in a class or joining a club? I think that may help. Also therapy. Best of luck in your journey and hugs, being shunned sounds though.
Such good advice! I work with people. At my job we are encouraged to talk with our customers and make them feel welcomed. Since I lost all my friends I have thrown myself into my work and am doing fantastic. I have conversations with people that are wonderful! Their stories crack me up until I am laughing so hard! There are literally millions of wonderful people out there. Start talking and listening! Soon your life and heart will be full again!!! Don't give up trying to have a happy life! Fight for it!!!!
Reading this 4yrs later. Did u take that good advice 2 wrote u. I hope so orbit gave u other ideas. Im a member of my local gym n love that. I know n talk to many there. Many coffee gaps. I often join in different ones; I'm a people person n chstterbox; so Romany of my friends. I recently made a new friend. I could be her mother n I adore her little girl n cant wait to meet the new baby growing in her. My grankids n her little daughter play 2gether after swim classes (I've been to the gym or done a class) n we sit n chat n watchvthe kids play in the attached park. I bring the lollies n choc n it's always can I see the lollies. I do try to buy no artificial flavours n colours haha. One door closes n another opens. I hope u found that. If your a shy person n still finding your way n still walking in the park. Do u like dogs? Walking with your dog in the park attracts people to u. Our beautiful staff (dead now) was sooo friendly. Loved people from adults to kids n other dogs). I met many people this way. Take care. Know that people like me n on this channel do care about u. Xxx
I work with a social club that accepts all neurodiverse people. I'm considered "neurotypical" but I love, accept and try my best to understand all the kids we work with. I just want you to know there are people like me and my social club members who are accepting. Good luck finding good people.
@@roseheimbichner7296 Thank you! I have a few close friends that I love and we're pretty tight, especially John- he also has no concept of cues- so we click like a cricket.
I suspect that I am on the autistic spectrum, and likely was born to a parent with it. It is the only explanation that would make sense. Frustratingly, I was told by a phd in psychology that I don't qualify, since I didn't test unusually high in intelligence. Great...I'm too 'stupid' to be on the autistic spectrum.
A lot of your older stuff comes up in my you tube feed. Oh how I remember those days. You were the bridge for me from insanity to recovery. The “hello there” in that accent triggered a calm I can’t explain. In my sons final months of life he found a peace since he was awake and an elder so trapped! He died of cancer 39 years young. Afraid til the end to offend or be ostracized. Blood kept him with us a year longer then we would have had. No one knows about that. Thank you
Jessie Berle thank you. It has been the worst thing to experience. As much as I saw evidence of no god I saw such a primal fight for life! And the emptiness of its demise. He was a good man.
Jessie Berle yes. He will live as long as I do and his siblings. He has three boys as well. Just by the by 15 of us left the org this past two years. Lifers and full in. Awake is awake. Can’t play after the curtain is pulled back.
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. I'm so glad the information on my channel has eased some of the pain from your ordeal. Sending love, hugs and solidarity.
My sister in law's "jolt" was when she found our that she had terminal cancer. That's when she realized she didn't want to go to her grave shunning me... 😞
I'm so glad that she changed her view on shunning you because she is going to need all the real love I wouldn't try to change her beliefs now if it gives her comfort and support her as much as you can deep down inside most good witnesses know shunning is not Christin or loving
Learned about the term ostracize in my psychology class about a month ago. I broke down instantly because I finally was able to put a definition to what I experienced for years in high school. I tried explaining it for so many years but no one understood. Years later I still struggle with what happened during that time where being ostracized nearly cost me my life, but I am thankful I made it through and am able to educate people on the importance of knowing what it is and how to prevent it.
This behaviour occurs in non religious organisations too. The “pain” factor is something with which I have dealt my entire life and is happening in a current work setting for me as well. It is a form of bullying that is punishment at its worst. Those who use these kinds of actions (not answering questions, removing you from your usual work group, changing the meaning of what is being said as examples) are inflicting emotional and physical pain on the person upon which this is visited. Lloyd, this video is amongst the best you have done as it explains so much of the JW experience but also the general human experience. This is a great interview that is a gold mine for further episodes. Thanks
Interesting deep dive into how being shunned has a very powerful psychological effect on people. It has been proven that being ostracized triggers pain in the brain just like physical pain. A really heartless practice that the JW's employ against their former members .
My nasty female dog of a sister in law did the preshun shun when I had my children . She decided to pionerr (mistake intended) She never met my kids now in their 20's. And it was very painful because they did grow up sweet people , all that was missed. Now of course we are free of all the crap and she has a" told you so" " real reason" to shun us, whoopie do!!!! who won in the game of life.? So glad I will never have to have contact with that female dog ever not even death will join us now. How ironic is that
Interesting (4yrs later your comment is interesting n sooo true). My friend is going through it now with his own grown up kids n many in the cong bc he's classed as a weak bro. He can handle it from the elders n bros in the cong. But his kids, it realky hurting him n very depressed. But he has me n other friends. He's becoming stronger n will eventually cut them off if they don't change n put his own mental health 1st.
I watched this after having been semi-ostracized by two people I've known for years this afternoon over what I'd say was a minor infraction on my part. I came home and took to my bed feeling an overwhelming weight of isolation, fatigue and resignation. I don't think perpetrators realise the damage they do to people they cold shoulder.
It's painful but probably a blessing in disguise if your ties gets severed with people who keep having silent, passive aggressive temper tantrums over petty faux pas'. They are not worth it and it was their mistake.
What was your minor infraction ? Sometimes people walk away in order to maintain their own boundaries and peace of mind. After a neighbor was repeatedly told that we don’t want to listen to her constant stream of foul language, when she continued and even got worse-turning into verbal abuse- the rest of us simply decided to meet without “Potty Mouth” and it has been less stressful for us. We had a choice: protect ourselves or expose ourselves to that treatment. She will have to worry about herself. Not our prob anymore.
If I were Dr. Hales, I might brag a bit about where I’m doing my research. UVA is a highly-respected American university, founded by Thomas Jefferson. They not only draw excellent students, researchers and academics to their campus, but they have a superior athletic program. UVA holds the current men’s NCAA Division 1 Basketball Championship. Go Cavs! Thank you Lloyd and Dr. Hales for this informative discussion. When you were talking about the sting of ostracism from strangers, I thought of the feeling of not receiving a returned “hello” or smile. Extrapolate that to complete shunning from family and/or friends, and the pain is much deeper indeed. Thanks again!
Not only do JWs ostracise because they’re following orders but we need to add that they also live with the fear that they too would be ostracised themselves if they don’t follow orders.
Lloyd, you’re really starting to amass an impressive collection of interviews with scholars, experts, and those with personal experience in very important yet varied fields of academia and life generally. It’s a virtual library of useful information. I always learn something new. Looking forward to your next installment.
I found as a JW child that not being allowed to participate in school activities or sports made me feel ostracised, even if it wasn't the other kids doing it. The rules of not associating with worldly people or doing the things they do causes people to feel profoundly alone.
L Love That is so true I saw it first hand as a witness in the three years I went to the congregation. I never saw any kids/ teenagers talk about soccer practice, football, cheerleading, or starring in the school play, no music or dance recitals . I thought it was very sad children need to work on their social skills and be exposed to things. How do you know if your child is good at anything if you don’t let them experience it????? I never understood it.
both my children now shun me and the hurt and pain is tangible. it is like a bereavement without ever being able to resolve or heal. I love my children deeply but this act of cruelty has literally floored me . I have not seen my son for 5 years and my daughter for 2 years now and it hurts daily
This was such a great video. Thanks for making it. It discuses important issues and important research. I think some of the comments are coming from people who don't understand the different types of research in the field of psychology. Controlled research, what this man does, is limited by ethical restrictions in what it can study but provides extremely valuable data. More anecdotal research of individuals who've experinced religious shunning is a different field of research which provides less reliable data in some ways but can provide valuable perspectives on the issues. Studies into bullying can also provide valuable data on issues relating to shunning and other manipulative tactics.
I was just in Virginia for a month visiting my son and grandchildren, my sons in the Navy,,but ive seen the University, very nice,and a great school,great interview, thanks,and btw ,its Father's day here,happy Father's day to u Lloyd, and all the others dads out there,i lost my daddy a year ago,and i know ur disconnected from ur dad,,its very sad,as life is so short, too short to not spend as much time as u can with ur loved ones, im sorry u have to go thru that,and i hope he realizes one day soon what the real truth is,and u can have him in ur family's life again💙
Im not even a Jehovahs Witness, never have been, never plan on being, and somehow this was still emotionally upsetting to me on a personal level. I cant even place exactly why.
You hurt because it is the cruel side of human nature. When it is mandated by the group you allow the rape of your soul. It is a deep seated weapon of controlling humans. In jdubland it is integral in their DNA
Lloyd was gracious enough to give the Patrons a first look at this video. This is fascinating! I strongly urge every subscriber to support Lloyd on Patreon! You get inside looks at his channel and content and chances to interact with him every month. It’s the best decision I’ve made as an ex-JW in the process of healing. Thank you Lloyd for all you do!!!!!
Thank you Monica! Your support is incredible and I'm delighted to offer a small gesture in return whenever I can to those like you who make my work possible! :)
I wish you two would have more definitively defined the term "shunned." Due to the guest never being a JW, it seemed as if he was unaware of the extent and intensity of "JW shunning." Being absolutely cut off (parents/family don't come even if you're in the hospital, you're homeless and they don't even care and will pass you on the road and intentionally look away) is quite different than (i.e.) not being invited to all the family gatherings or only getting a call from your parent every 6 months. It felt as if you two were talking about two different things. I feel I have more that I could teach him about being ostracized/shunned/thrown away than he currently could teach me about the subject. I would love to talk with him.
@@meghandelarosa2443 Right? There is little to no correlation between having lessening contact with strangers (you don't see their faces) for 2 minutes and not being allowed to see your family for decades vs. being kicked out as a minor for no longer believing what your parents believe. It's like comparing finding a fly in your home vs. finding an elephant. One is an annoyance, the other is devastating, destructive and potentially life-threatening.
@@greatdayn4651 So true the disfellowshipping policy really needs to be publicized not just soft soap calling it shunning. It really is a misnomer . (like paedophilia is child rape) If the policy of disfellowshipping was clearly codified and the actual consequences fully explained. Then we would gain some headway. There would be no misunderstanding on either party. Through ignorance or deception. If every child under18 were told if you get disfellowshipped you will be homeless ,before baptism. All families might proceed with caution.
Thanks Lloyd for this nice video, specially when it comes from an expert in this field. Apparently Witchtower has caused us so much pain and listening to this kind of interviews are really helpful to our recovery process
I really think the internet is the best help on the road to recovery. We are all in the same leaky boat and we know it, but it helps to have kindred spirits , regardless of faith, belief etc
I appreciated this discussion on ostracism but quickly realized it was made for folks who dealt with religious shunning or simple ethical research experiments. What about folks like me who are shunned as a result of holding on to family secrets? I was made the black sheep of the family and ostracized for speaking up about domestic violence (physical, psychological and sexual) by members of my family and the perpetrators were not happy and have shunned me ever since. It is indeed emotional blackmail and a power play on their part to seek my silence and conform submissively. It has been a struggle for me, even though I know I was right in breaking the cycle of abuse. As the researcher pointed the options are limited to either conform, get aggressive or withdraw. I chose to isolate and I’m challenged by CPTSD as a result of this. I have also experienced workplace shunning by a clique of women and I made a decision to quit. It stung for a while but I had control and knew that I could find a less toxic workplace and experience healthier work relationships. When it comes to family - It is a lonely road and I have nobody to call family and hardly any friends to lean on. I’m glad that this topic is being discussed openly but I wish I could get some help - it is so excruciatingly painful and lonely in this experience. Yesterday was my godchild’s wedding but I was excluded:-(
Thank you Lloyd, once again! Thank you Andrew Hales, for sharing your field of studies with us, very insightful! I agree, the internet is a wonderful means to educate the public, bringing awareness, as you say. Thanks for caring enough about the subject & sacrificing your time, greatly appreciated! 👏👏👏👏
Wonderful discussion, huge thanks to you both! It's a long time coming. By far the most unnatural & life changing is the shunning by family members. My head goes nuts when I think how gross to remove your own children that YOU gave birth to! Your own flesh & blood who YOU nurtured & protected all the days of their lives, only to have 8 overfed men snatch them away!
Instead of ostracising the person or people, can’t you just tell them what they did wrong!! Wouldnt that be easier, rather than actively choosing to mentally torture someone.
It's a horrible, mean thing to ostracize or, worse, to cause others to ostracize another, especially alienating them from the ones they love most (as with relational aggression). You cannot do this to others without harming yourself or your mental health.
Excellent video. Ostracism is a horrible, bullying thing. Whether it's from a religious group or from your family. It's physically and mentally painful. Unfortunately, I know this firsthand.
I've been ostracized by my entire family since age 4 because i reported abuse from a family member. Every family member sided with the abuser against me (at the time i was a 4 year old toddler). It's been 30 years later now and the actions are still taking place. I don't expect my family to ever change their hearts. It's made it impossible to trust people but i am very independent and self motivated. All i have to do is put my mind to it and i succeed. Because of this, i am the most successful out of my immediate family. Where they fail, i succeed (it's also led to the other family members being very competitive with me, an action i never take part in) Long ago, i reported my abuse so the national statistics show what really happened and the stats can help other victims. Like you stated in the video, maybe with new info on the subject, later generations will be able to find ways to heal from this trauma.
Just listening to your video for the second time & feeling its importance in the progression of our Human experience. We have a lot to learn about ourselves, and as usual we learn the hard way! When religions use this "primal" need for acceptance against us, we need to recognize immediately what is really happening.
Oh yes! You are right. We need to recognize that they are trying to FORCE US TO RETURN or DIE. We need to be very strong and determined to have life our way!! LOVE FREEDOM HAPPINESS FAMILY
Andrew, we're neighbors (I'm in Charlottesville)! SO glad there is some scientific interest in the effects of ostracism. It is such a damaging tool. Looking forward to what future research will show us.
John that was such a balanced and reasonable conversation and it's good to listen to because it's slow placed and there are pauses to digest it. I always had trouble trying to square a circle when I myself was engaged in wrestling mentally with trying to"justify" acting so cruel when my instincts were telling me otherwise. It's harmful for the perpetrator true but in context is only endured when coming into potential contact with the victim and the perpetrator can choose not to shun. The victim has no choice. The victim has to ensure 24/7 365 days This discussion helped me to at least understand the mechanics of ostracism if not only for the purpose of undercutting any residual sympathies for Watchtower's so called justification and rationale. Again many thanks.
This is the most painful experience I have ever had to endure in my life. My story is much too long to relate here, but I finally found a site is addressing how I've felt for years. I felt so guilty even turning in for the last 2 days listening to the different stories told by ex witnesses. I'm just starting the road to awareness into the control of this organization and, at this point, I don't know if I'll ever recover or be able to trust anyone again. S
Linda Smith I feel for you. I haven't went to meetings since November...hard to imagine we all blindly believed/shunned/judged. You will be ok...and also better. I recently read a book called "so you don't want to go to church anymore" not something I would ever buy but it was a quarter at a yard sale...I couldn't put it down and read it in two days...if you get a chance google it. It helped my heart be more peaceful...and I hope it will help you also. You are not alone.
Excellent that you are exploring these topics. The consequences on both those being shunned and those doing the shunning are far reaching. Just the tip of the iceberg! Keep up the great work!
Fascinating interview! I hope that the Governing Body would have concern for its religious community and assess with professionals the harmful effects of disfellowshipping and shunning.
I was so ostracized by my wife's family that I didn't even know that my wife was being thrown a 50th birthday party in 2019. My wife found the invitations in her brother's room. I ended up dressing up, helping set up and take down for the party, and putting food away. But I definitely attended to be there for my wife. What could anyone say about me being there? None of my wife's family talked to me.
My family and I was very much ostracized in the congregations two out three congregations that We've been to as a teenager by the kids my age in the hall and then as an young adult I don't know why I put up with it for as long as I did, the mistreatment they gave me and my family was because of being labeled as bad association from the first one, as now I realize that that is what it was. I have social issues I contend with now because of them and others too. My siblings and I were picked on as little kids by ones inside was later but outside as little kids. Then as older was just the JWs I at least did have friends outside as a teenager during that time. I should have left a sooner than I did though, I was actually the last one in after everyone else in my family had stopped.
Yeah that happens. I remember a family that seemed ostracised. They were called "The Fat Family" behind their backs.. They were a family of 7 with no father. They were huge people.Very country folk. They loved each other and laughed easily. They were really poor. I visited them and saw their circumstances. People helped them out but it wasnt enough. The older boys got jobs and girlfriends and the congregation never saw them again. One by one they stopped coming. Then the whole family moved away. And that was the last we saw of them. Some people, myself included just don't thrive in the new regimented computerized JW-CYBORG religion.
Thanks Lloyd & Andrew for this therapeutic look at shunning/ostracism. We share the wound of paternal shunning and, I hope, that this appealing video will bring us, the WTB&TS walking wounded, to some peace with the loss of fathers, mothers, children and friends to all those affected in the course of sociopathic tyranny of the Governing Body.
In my experience, people will often ostracize the person in the social grouping who is the lowest status, the most expendable, or the least costly to get rid of. They can know perfectly well that the scapegoat is innocent of the accusations and even that the person making them is lying. But if they know, even subconsciously, that the person making the accusations either has more power or is more likely to go to great lengths in punishing people (or both), they will go along with that person. And this can happen even among liberal, social-justice-oriented Unitarians, not just obedient, conservative JWs. Most of it happens below the level of consciousness, and as you say, once people have ostracized someone for long enough, they're unwilling to revisit that decision.
Im going to disagree with you on this. Believing the ostracized one is expendable is a RESULT of them being ostracized. Often people are ostracized out of jealousy. We see this in the work place when an employee is doing well, yet isnt interested in office politics. We see it in female friend groups when a girl with better social skills is jealous of another girl in the group (meaning she has a reason to be jealous) Look at the most useless person tho. They are docile, submissive and tenacious. They get to stay in the group but the talented person who keeps to themself doesn’t, why is that? Its bc they dont appear as a threat to the leader and bc they make themselves useful. They person calling the shots finds them safe.
Like so many others who appreciate your work, Lloyd, I am deeply affected by the shunning received from my former family members and friends. I say former family members because right now I don't consider them family after the way they have cut me off. These are die-hard JW bc I was one too, so it's what I expected. But the pain is devastating when you stop to "ruminate" over it, so I try to avoid it by "insulating" myself to avoid further pain. Two points that your guest highlighted with precision. More need to speak out against this form of abuse. Just when you think things are getting better, an experience causes the wound to be reopened. I never would have imagined not speaking to my dearest brother for over a year, or being labeled by my family as apostate. But your channel along with others continues to fortify me to stay strong for myself and my kids and enjoy the happiness of knowing they will not grow up to think shunning family members bc your religion tells you to is right! Thank you!
Thanks Lloyd for doing this interview. It took years of soft shunning to realize I was being ostracized in the congregation. I just assumed that everyone just didn't like my personality. So just as Andrew explains, I became introverted / depressed and tried to figure out what was wrong with me. Eventually I just backed off from associating and left the congregation all together. I was left trying to reconcile the fact that these "true christians with the identifying mark of love" had shown me no love at all. Over a decade after leaving WT and thanks to yours and other EX JW youtube channels, I was awakened that my soft shunning was more likely due to the fact that I had a beard, did not put elders on pedestals nor hand in my monthly hours, mark watchtower mags etc (yeah stupid I know). Since leaving I have set up and currently run 2 barbershops with over 8 employees now working and have made many friends within my local community. So i guess my personality isn't so bad after all. Keep up the great work Lloyd, your videos have helped me to close that chapter of my life.
After 2+ years I am accepting my life sentence I feel. Ostracized by my family most all of who I called friends and church and community. It has ruined my life I feel and I'm still not sure why? It's most horribly damaging to a humans life.
Thank you so much for this video. It was thought provoking and helpful. I'm being actively shunned by congregation members who are "still reacting" to my "sudden" choice to disassociate. Even though I haven't made a meeting in 5 years, and have been out for more years than that mentally, they still feel the need to act affronted. Just for giggles I act like I'm shunning them right back. It's working pretty well so far. The worst offender actually seemed to get what I was doing and is no longer reacting to my mere presence. Peer pressure is really a two-way street.
Thank you for sharing this video . .God’s Love is greater .Thank you to the True teachings of Jesus ( Words ) , it set us all free .We are all connected .We have to remember to pray for our fellow brothers and sisters because they were scared too, to be shun .I read some article that they use this technique , in the past from different group , even for smaller things or just being suspicious or just because they don’t like you .The whole point here , its not Good .We need to associate with other people though we are cautious but like a dove .Thank you brother for sharing this video .it’s getting more clearer .Jesus true teachings and our current brothers and sisters ministering to all of Us ( past , present and future ) set us all free .indeed .
It’s easier to give your love to somone, or invest your time and effort in new relationships if you know that you are loved already. If you have your comfort in someone elses love (like love from God, your parents, your best friend, or your spouse) it’s easier to handle rejection, negative response, critisism, shunning etc. 1 John 4:19 “We love because he first loved us”. GOD LOVES YOU VERY MUCH!!!
My mom used silent treatment on me at home if I told her something she didn't like to hear. Then in school I was shunned and harassed. Having friends to play with on my street where I lived helped. I think being shunned at home and in school that really helped me be strong and leave when I noticed I had no friends in the congregation either. I'm an observer. Once I have observed enough.. I will make my decision and leave. That applies for jobs as well.
So the painful effects of ostracism make the ostracized person more likely to conform to social norms unquestioningly... Hm, makes for the perfect mind control tactic then, doesn't it?
Extremely interesting. I see this is an old upload, but I'd be very interested in participating in a study about this subject. No set-up or test subjects needed. I've felt ostracized for 15 years. I'm not sure if this is the result of mental and emotional abuse I endured for around 10 years, coupled with a lifelong low self esteem from being ostracized and bullied in school. The low self esteem, I'm certain, made me the perfect target for someone who would be capable of inflicting that kind of abuse, as well as making me the perfect candidate to allow that type of behavior to continue. I'm (once again) seeing counseling for this. I'm very driven to find out more about this subject, mostly to make the last 15 years count for something, for something positive that could help others. You rarely, or I haven't anyway, seen much research on this. I would be extremely interested to find out what affects this has had on my mental health and physical health. For instance, I've felt suicidal. I absolutely would never act on that, because I want to live. I want to live like everyone else and not have this daily disappointment and chest-crushing physical pain that comes with being or perceiving that you're ostracized. Looking into this.
I've always been left out as a child and it's now happening in my adult life.. my mother 3sisters and brother all go on holidays they've recently had a wedding I have not been invited to any. Then they just go on long enough to forget my pain and go on like nothing happened that's more painful 💔
I really think we should have a study where a person who is consistently ostracized goes into an environment and just lets it play out and then a professional comes in and interviews as many members of the group as possible to find out what they were thinking would be a really useful study
I am an ostracized person I believe .Social isolation is very difficult but I am self employed and do a creative job that still keeps me a little happy
Excellent interview with astute use of questions to clarify the impacts of ostracism. My postgraduate studies on group conformity (Asch’s work on group pressure comes to mind) are well in the past (1980s), but Andrew Hales gave a very helpful update (e.g., cyberball) of the research. I could have listened to your conversation for hours- so informative and thought-provoking. The other aspect that figures in this area is psychological resilience: Those people who thrive and come into their own after they have been subjected to shunning - we see lots of people here who display psychological hardiness/resilience. Research into these types of empowered responses may help illuminate what helps people not just cope but become even happier and more fulfilled once they leave.
I've been a witness for my whole life 40 years (whole family & extended family minus my siblings are also) currently my husband and I are "waking up" it's an emotional roller coaster but also SO very clear that it isn't "the truth" and there is no going back. I'm reading a book currently 'Messy Spirituality' and in it he refers to a Shel Silverstein poem, I grew up with these silly poems with deeper meanings...I recently sold my kids copy which makes this even stranger so I had to google a poem he talked about. It's called THE ONE WHO STAYED. A simple poem that any witness that spent their adolescents especially in this religion and finally left could relate too. When I read it my heart became heavy with emotions. - most of the young ones I grew up with left and my own older siblings were never baptized but I felt torn and could not leave my other believing family behind. Until now. But my hope is that more will wake up. I hope others can relate to this also. THE ONE WHO STAYED By Shel Silverstein You should have heard the old men cry, You should have heard the biddies When that sad stranger raised his flute And piped away the kiddies. Katy, Tommy, Meg and Bob Followed skipping gaily, Red-haired Ruth, my brother Rob, And little crippled Bailey, John and Nils and Cousin Clare, Dancin', spinnin', turnin' 'Cross the hills to God knows where-- They never came returnin'. 'Cross the hills to God knows where The piper pranced, a leadin' Each child in Hamlin Town but me, And I stayed home unheedin'. My papa says that I was blest For if that music found me, I'd be witch-cast like the rest. This town grows cold around me. I cannot say I did not hear That sound so haunting hollow-- I heard, I heard, I heard it clear. . . I was afraid to follow.
I suppose since I’m here I’ll share what happened to me. When I was 12 I moved to a small school with only about 350 kids in the middle and high school combined. In middle school everything was fine, I had friends and ok relationships with teachers. During my 8th grade year Covid hit and I didn’t go back to school till my sophomore year. Everything was different for me when I went back, all the friends I had moved away so I was alone. People just ignored me to the point where I couldn’t even get help from teachers because I was invisible to them too. I spent my sophomore year just trying to ignore it. When my junior year started everything was the same and I started skipping classes in the most obvious way by just sitting in the hall and still nobody ever said anything to me. Eventually I stopped trying and my grades plunged, I eventually dropped out of school because I felt so lonely and depressed. I’m currently doing a GED and plan on going to Community College afterwards.
It helps to know that the anxiety, self-doubt and seeking for what we've done wrong that are brought on through being ostracized or dealing with the silent treatment are irrational - that they are emotions without any rational basis that needs to be 'figured out' or 'uncovered' through personal forensics. The best way to work through actual flaws or real mistakes is through dialog, not in imposed isolation. Just being able to let that irrational response pass - like an anxiety attack - is very effective. To know that your brain is producing a response independent of any facts or reasons - and that this response just needs to calm down - is comforting in the big picture.
Most JW feel shunning is loving discipline. They trust elders to have judged the person as unrepentant. They feel righteously entitled to have a part in the correction of a person.
My involvement with the JW org. Has been an eye opener. Attending their meetings and watching those awful monthly Watchtower broadcasts have strengthened my belief that Shunning is a breach of a person's human rights and should be outlawed.
Someone who had become a white supremacist stopped in part due to the kindness shown to him from Jews, blacks, and other minorities. Would not have happened if he had been ostracized. He wrote a book and has speaking engagements. As a youth he was a marginalized individual and his parents were too busy. He met up with white supremacists who befriended him.
I feel sorry for all the Jehovah’s Witnesses that are trapped and don’t want to be part of this family breaking organisation. So many of them living secret double lives and going to meetings just to please others. I was one of them.
That scene with the guy being left alone out of the game the look on his face ,that look is way too familiar.Just recall the face of anyone read off at the KH.
I was ostracized in 8 th grade for the school year. It was excruciatingly painful and shameful and I still haven’t recovered but created a similar scenario several times in my life. My mother didn’t talk to me for 2 years as an older teen. At one job where I was the only woman, the ignorant men withdrew their attention for awhile. By then I knew how to deal with it and thought it was normal. Seriously I still do not trust people.
@@LloydEvans yes, it does. I was thinking that there was a fence-sitting elder who was being persuaded by his argument, then heard him mention evolution and tossed everything out the window. I will have to investigate Cyberball now.
@@timtoney669 If they're not ready to have their ideas challenged by new information there's not much that can be done. I'm glad you've found this video informative!
@@LloydEvans challenge ideas?!? Then we would lose Jehovah's helping hand and KHs won't get built or we'd appoint the wrong men as elders... wait. Srsly, I enjoy having the unbiased experts chiming in giving balanced explainations. Happy father's day btw, if you all have that over there.
The way I have handled my disfellowshpping is that I DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE IT!! I work with a JW gal who at first shunned me. But I continue to say hello and goodbye and compliment her clothes and hair and laugh with everyone. At first she was forced by sheer peer pressure to say hello back to me but now we are pretty comfortable interacting. It has been one year.I mean it is so obvious that I am so much happier now!!! OMG everyone has noticed that. I laugh and enjoy people so much more. I am so free to love and enjoy life now! She though is stuck, depressed and on meds. My heart goes out to her and I want to help her get out of the borg too. I will continue to be friendly and happy around her and be there for her when she needs me. Dear Lloyd, you should send some pictures of your kids and family to your dad. You should tell him that you love him. I would! Never mind their rules! You make the rules. It is your life. Get your father out.
Greetings... I have been trying to look for the book Crisis of Conscience but I'm having a hard time knowing which one to buy. I have found one with a photograph of Raymond Franz and another with a grey colored background with white and red letters. Is there a difference between the 2 books? If someone can help me out I would greatly appreciate it! God bless.
S.S Flower they may be two different editions, but either should be fine, i got it from Apple Books online and its the most recent version. That book is a game changer = it changed my life - its powerful.
@@MjrMjr-tt3kn thank you so much for replying. Yes, I have heard only great things about it. Did you get the with his photograph or the wording? I can't wait to read it!!!
I just took a job where the metrics are very high, I'm so skilled in this type of environment that I'm able to meet the metrics and beyond...I'm so good I was asked to show people how I make my metrics and it helped them as well, okay we go to the office and these very people that helped started ostracizing me..why I have no answer, I'm only familiar with ostracizing because this happens to me on every job I get. Do you think I could get a job accommodation to work from home due to me being a target of bullying
Try getting screened for autism or ppd or severe anxiety. Very common with these things happening. Your job may have to accomodate your disability, if you are diagnosed. I have no reason to think you have these things, other than its common with these issues at work. Try reading 48 laws of power as well. “Never outshine the master”
Another thing, experts on workplace bullying say that bullying targets are “exceptionally skilled and uninvolved in office politics” so part of it may be your skill that made you a target. I deal with this exact thing a lot too
I can related to this bcoz I am a person with visual disability n people in the society not all of them but a few do this to me they always make fun of me n my visual problem keep me away from them n this happens regularly within my so called frnds grp they come near me for assignmentsnor notes n rest of the time they make fun of low visionn after some time i got used to it but some times it really hits me n relatives are the mostntoxic i am from India n people in the society n relatives tell me u are a girl with defect no one should marry you as you would bring bad luck to the family n if at all u get married it should be a man who is atleast 20 years older brother me n frnds tell u can't survive without us u must be greatful that we allowed you to be frds with us People in college never sit near me Or they never let me sit near them I am one of the topppets of my class n frds sau you fooled teachers with your sad story n get marks On the other hand appreciate me instead of all these problems I come up with rising colors but the percentage is very very less Even people like us are humans with emotions like you all just the difference is we have a small fefect n sometimes need your help n they show asnif they doing a favour I have been a victim for ostracism n nullying i stopped caring bcoz it's going on from a decade but it's me at times n i have no real frds to whom I can go n talk The only request is from people don't these thi gs to us n dont feel pity on us justbyreat us as a normal person n sometimes when we need help extend it datsnit
There's shunning and then there's the silent treatment you get when you don't quite do something the way someone else wants you to, so even within their rules there are micro rules. Has anyone else experienced this??
Lloyd, your comment about how witnesses who participate in ostracism against their own heart reminds me of the dynamic of a group of kids who bully... Sometimes the kids follow the leader, but don't necessarily feel the personal conviction to do so. Hence why some witnesses will still have SECRET contact with a disfellowshipped one. Its very sad how they are stuck in an organization which does not allow their people to be AUTHENTIC! Having been one of those myself, I truly pity those who feel helpless and stuck in an organization which does not allow them to think freely. Or to have free agency to come or go as they please :(
If ostracism is so painful and hurtful when you receive it from strangers, how much more if you receive it from beloved former friends and family members. It’s just brutal and cruel!
@@hangedman821 but for those of us raised in it, having your whole community and family taken away from you making you either isolate yourself or come back because you have nothing is a strange practice. Yeah alot of exjws may not actually care about one another, but sometimes its nice to know other people have had those feelings of isolation with the combined feeling of standing your ground for what you believe. Feeling worthless because everyone you have been told is your brother or sister has pushed you completely away for being an imperfect human is something that is hard for some people to grasp. Not trying to hate, just saying in the end there are some witnesses that would act like a so called worldly person regardless, so doesnt that mean we are all human and can afford the decency to see ourselves through someone elses eyes? We dont have to die for that person so to say but you can at least give them the respect and understanding that they can have their own viewpoint and dont need to be punished for it. Personally the only thing being a JW taught me is to not have any emotion because everything is worthless and temporary. I dont even care if my parents pass away and i dont get to see them before. And i supposedly love my parents id like to believe. But its a strange thing that many like me have an emotional disconnect when leaving the organization. Id still die for those so called friends that i knew and for my family, but thats probably because i want to just be a decent human being. Youre looking at things from a negative viewpoint. There are amazing friendships in the organization and outside of it, dont fool yourself into thinking that humans outside the witnesses aren't loving. We are all literally human, some of us have a common belief between us which makes us closer, but even if we dont have that common belief why should that stop us from still relating and forming a bond with another imperfect human? We are all doing our best, who are you to tell me that I am not?
@@hangedman821 as is the same to kill for love so i guess we are all just human in the end.
Great interview Lloyd. I could see your thought turning within. After watching this, I can’t help but think of the lepers... no human should ever experience shunning. Just let them go...why the need to judge and punish. It hurt to hear that after while, the ostracism becomes its own creature surviving without reason.
Interesting point Hanged man. the ego of a damaged soul is so fragile . It seems to me there is a dichotomy in that those of us who are hurt and damaged are spoiling for a fight but won't take the bruises when we get punched. I use the internet as my quiet battle and even in the most unloaded comments people can be vicious. It is human nature . Also some are gracious . also human nature.
Amen i saw this happen 1st w my ex when he stoppedbeing a jw. It was crooked to me as an outsider. Now im experiencing it. My brother is a prosecuter. He does it for a living. Eek started w my dad moved on to me. My mom joined in. It hurts so bad. Slow and painful and i think theyll bully or they are doing it to my sis making her lie to hide now im feeling betrayed by her bc i got covid and she ignored me for weeks bc she was w him. (on the phone /contact). Ur w them or us mentality. Hes not even nice and talks down to her she just wants to be loved not in the middle. I used to be in her position. Shes fearful shell be shunned next. I find this all exceptionally hard to digest being that they have put me in the depression that I have helped them to evade for years. Somehow im not allowed to be sad after being ostracized in a strategic way in order so i dont get defensive or sad bc im lied to bc i was abused. Its mental gymnastics.
Shunning is NOT loving!! Shunning is emotional blackmail.
He can always interview all of us who have first hand experience.
Social isolation causes actual, physical pain. It's torture and people in power use it as such.
Greyshader I experienced it first hand but I can explain what it feels like n how to avoid it. Yes you heard me right you can overlook it n get right past it. It is all in the mind. It is a state of mind. People ostracized usually think in a negative manner. Which shouldn't be the case. We shouldn't be looking for others validation. We can always correct our flaws through self introspection n humans always have the resources to survive without a herd unlike the old time where strength was in numbers. Now we have many things to be done and places to be to think about rejection n in a way if you go to think about there is a chance that you have rejected someone because things weren't working out. So it is the same in the case of ostracision where things aren't working out between the grp n you. We are so programmed to get things working that we rejoin the same group that discarded us. N set unrealistic expectations of having their attention which when unmet leaves us disappointed. But in the event of a connect or incase you vibe or get their attention it won't take you long before you realise that things aren't working out. N it is awkward for both the parties (u n the grp). So ostracision is a defense mechanism keeping you away from people that cannot connect. We have given so much importance to socialising n have unrealistic expectations for likeability. We want to be the star of the show n the life of a party. We aren't ready to get sidelined or third wheeled so whem it happens it leaves us devastated. We need to learn how to cope up with rejection. IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD . Rejection just teaches us to look at other places. Ostracision does the same. It teaches us to look at other places for friends and acquaintances. Incase you force yourself to a grp that isn' very comfortable you won't be comfortable either.
Matt 958 Well, I see your point, but I don’t think it’s that black and white. Belonging within our social groups is a very primal thing that is extremely hard wired into us as human beings, and that’s why ostracism in any form is so painful. It’s not just in our heads. Shame is one of the most all-consuming physical sensations you can experience, and that’s because it’s not just an emotion. It’s also a survival instinct to conform to a certain set of social standards. We often feel it as a result of small (or maybe large) forms of ostracism, or a failure to live up to those standards/norms. You can’t just get rid of it by finding a different group. The need to feel acceptance within our groups isn’t something that will ever go away. It’s been there since the beginning.
@@riahray Ohh yes the basic need to socialise is what drives us insane. It is so innate that when we can't meet the basic needs everything feels out of order. It is frustrating on so many levels knowing that you are discarded everywhere you go. It all shows the tolerance of society as a whole. Not a lot when it comes to accomodating different people. Ostracision is a very common thing now. It is infuriating to see that everyone shares the same toxic opinion like as tho this whole planet lost its reasoning power overnight. However the reason I told to adopt a coping mechanism is because there is usually no way around ostracision. So the only way to escape further awkwardness and ridicule is to withdraw from interactions as a whole. Now while the drive kicks in hard. The drive to communicate and socialise you soon learn to let go of that urge. Which is not a bad thing because you finally realise the amount of energy you spent it communicating and what you receive most discarded people stop searching because the pattern is so similar and they are discarded from so many places for no fault of their own that they are eventually discouraged to the point where they don't try anymore.
Lloyd you channel just keeps getting better.....this is so informative ..my dear elderly mother is finally awake...and I didn't have to do much but show her all you do.big thank you Lloyd... Bless you and all your family💕
Congratulations on your mom. My mom woke up at age 80 and she died at 91. She was a JW for 30 years. I would tell her for years about she was in the wrong until at age 80 she needed blood. We convinced her to take it or she will die. She took it and got shunned. She got born again Christian and my church and redidacated her life to receive Jesus Christ and died at 91.
@@suejoyful5576 This is suvh wonderful news. Before fading I used to look around my congregation at older ones 70 and over and wonder if they could ever wake up. Should be interesting to hear her waking up story
I'm so happy for your mother
My mother is 77 years old and woke up 2 years ago. Because of this, her only living sibling won't speak to her. They were inseparable before. It's so sad.
Oh, that's wonderful Hayley!!
The governing body are so hypocritical when it comes to shunning because I was once reading a watchtower article about a muslim woman who wanted to become a Jehovah Witness but her Muslim family shunned her and in the article it was saying how awful it is that her family was shunning her.
So in the governing body's eyes, it's unacceptable to shun someone who wants to become a Jehovah Witness from another religion but if a Jehovah Witness wants to leave the religion then that's not ok.
Such double standard's and it's pure blackmail. 😡😡😡
Both are evil cults. In fact when used to preach, one of the points that I could see was the common tactics between Islam and Watchtower. Shunning was one of them
This comment deserves a "love" from the OP.
Jordan Halkier exactly double standards!
Jordan do you remember or have the article reference?
You nailed it! And how genius to take on the name Jehovah's Witnesses. When people choose to leave, believing members emotionally manipulate them by saying the person left Jehovah, rather than the truth that they left this man made organization. Horrific emotional blackmail and many become agnostic because they are blackmailed into thinking God has left them, or they commit suicide. The Governing Body will have its day of reckoning for their bloodguilt.
This has been the hardest part of my life. To have people who you thought loved you unconditionally shun you hurts deeply
I feel it Ebony you are not alone 💔
love was always conditional
The internet saved me from the shunning of my religious family. Programs like this are freeing.
I am doing very well too.
Thats awesome!
The Frisbee experiment: what a great way of demonstrating the cruelty and absolute disconnection experienced through shunning. Anyone - even if they haven't experienced shunning - can imagine the visible and stark exposure to meanness and isolation through this example.
The frisbee experiment just showed me that collective associates/friends are tolerant of a newbie but will dismiss you when you no longer fit or serve their purpose. In jdubland its the love bombing until they baptize you. then the armslength ostracism starts. If you never fit their ideal profile there is the many levels of social shunning. Maybe that initial gut reaction in the frisbee experiment should warn us don't invest any emotional energy in this dynamic . Pain is always a warning .
What helps me about being shunned is going to the mall. Going to a store. Walk in a park near people. It gets me out of being isolated.
Have you tried enrolling in a class or joining a club? I think that may help. Also therapy. Best of luck in your journey and hugs, being shunned sounds though.
Such good advice! I work with people. At my job we are encouraged to talk with our customers and make them feel welcomed. Since I lost all my friends I have thrown myself into my work and am doing fantastic. I have conversations with people that are wonderful! Their stories crack me up until I am laughing so hard! There are literally millions of wonderful people out there. Start talking and listening! Soon your life and heart will be full again!!! Don't give up trying to have a happy life! Fight for it!!!!
Reading this 4yrs later.
Did u take that good advice 2 wrote u. I hope so orbit gave u other ideas.
Im a member of my local gym n love that. I know n talk to many there. Many coffee gaps. I often join in different ones; I'm a people person n chstterbox; so Romany of my friends. I recently made a new friend. I could be her mother n I adore her little girl n cant wait to meet the new baby growing in her. My grankids n her little daughter play 2gether after swim classes (I've been to the gym or done a class) n we sit n chat n watchvthe kids play in the attached park. I bring the lollies n choc n it's always can I see the lollies. I do try to buy no artificial flavours n colours haha.
One door closes n another opens.
I hope u found that.
If your a shy person n still finding your way n still walking in the park.
Do u like dogs?
Walking with your dog in the park attracts people to u. Our beautiful staff (dead now) was sooo friendly. Loved people from adults to kids n other dogs). I met many people this way.
Take care. Know that people like me n on this channel do care about u.
Xxx
I am autistic. I have a hard tine with social cues. It's caused a lot of ostracism and I stay away from people because of it.
I work with a social club that accepts all neurodiverse people. I'm considered "neurotypical" but I love, accept and try my best to understand all the kids we work with. I just want you to know there are people like me and my social club members who are accepting. Good luck finding good people.
@@roseheimbichner7296 Thank you! I have a few close friends that I love and we're pretty tight, especially John- he also has no concept of cues- so we click like a cricket.
I suspect that I am on the autistic spectrum, and likely was born to a parent with it. It is the only explanation that would make sense. Frustratingly, I was told by a phd in psychology that I don't qualify, since I didn't test unusually high in intelligence. Great...I'm too 'stupid' to be on the autistic spectrum.
@@roseheimbichner7296 What is this club? Is it international?
@@emptyness2583 Sadly not international. It's called Epic Revolution. Based in Sacramento, Ca.
A lot of your older stuff comes up in my you tube feed. Oh how I remember those days. You were the bridge for me from insanity to recovery. The “hello there” in that accent triggered a calm I can’t explain. In my sons final months of life he found a peace since he was awake and an elder so trapped! He died of cancer 39 years young. Afraid til the end to offend or be ostracized. Blood kept him with us a year longer then we would have had. No one knows about that.
Thank you
Jessie Berle thank you. It has been the worst thing to experience. As much as I saw evidence of no god I saw such a primal fight for life! And the emptiness of its demise. He was a good man.
Jessie Berle yes. He will live as long as I do and his siblings. He has three boys as well.
Just by the by 15 of us left the org this past two years. Lifers and full in. Awake is awake. Can’t play after the curtain is pulled back.
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. I'm so glad the information on my channel has eased some of the pain from your ordeal. Sending love, hugs and solidarity.
John Cedars thank you. 💕
Sorry Faded Glory, truly I am very sad for you
My sister in law's "jolt" was when she found our that she had terminal cancer. That's when she realized she didn't want to go to her grave shunning me... 😞
I'm so glad that she changed her view on shunning you because she is going to need all the real love I wouldn't try to change her beliefs now if it gives her comfort and support her as much as you can deep down inside most good witnesses know shunning is not Christin or loving
read my comment above... Some of them are the genuine article . see you next tuesday@Hobart Detectorist
It is in Aka perez thread@Hobart Detectorist
oops 720 reddog my comment about susan my nasty sis in law@Hobart Detectorist(she is a c u next Tuesday)
Learned about the term ostracize in my psychology class about a month ago. I broke down instantly because I finally was able to put a definition to what I experienced for years in high school. I tried explaining it for so many years but no one understood. Years later I still struggle with what happened during that time where being ostracized nearly cost me my life, but I am thankful I made it through and am able to educate people on the importance of knowing what it is and how to prevent it.
This behaviour occurs in non religious organisations too. The “pain” factor is something with which I have dealt my entire life and is happening in a current work setting for me as well. It is a form of bullying that is punishment at its worst. Those who use these kinds of actions (not answering questions, removing you from your usual work group, changing the meaning of what is being said as examples) are inflicting emotional and physical pain on the person upon which this is visited.
Lloyd, this video is amongst the best you have done as it explains so much of the JW experience but also the general human experience. This is a great interview that is a gold mine for further episodes. Thanks
leave your job
Really interesting stuff.
Those being shunned by close family members left in the organisation have my deepest sympathy.
Daaaam, man! You've done huge progress with your channel, mate! Cheers!
Interesting deep dive into how being shunned has a very powerful psychological effect on people. It has been proven that being ostracized triggers pain in the brain just like physical pain. A really heartless practice that the JW's employ against their former members .
My nasty female dog of a sister in law did the preshun shun when I had my children . She decided to pionerr (mistake intended) She never met my kids now in their 20's. And it was very painful because they did grow up sweet people , all that was missed. Now of course we are free of all the crap and she has a" told you so" " real reason" to shun us, whoopie do!!!! who won in the game of life.? So glad I will never have to have contact with that female dog ever not even death will join us now. How ironic is that
@Hobart Detectorist Ha Ha maybe I made you be a detectorist. I think we are all battle weary coming out of jdubland. Some rotten eggs amongst that lot
Interesting (4yrs later your comment is interesting n sooo true). My friend is going through it now with his own grown up kids n many in the cong bc he's classed as a weak bro.
He can handle it from the elders n bros in the cong.
But his kids, it realky hurting him n very depressed.
But he has me n other friends. He's becoming stronger n will eventually cut them off if they don't change n put his own mental health 1st.
That was so fascinating to hear. Really good interview Lloyd.
I watched this after having been semi-ostracized by two people I've known for years this afternoon over what I'd say was a minor infraction on my part. I came home and took to my bed feeling an overwhelming weight of isolation, fatigue and resignation. I don't think perpetrators realise the damage they do to people they cold shoulder.
It's painful but probably a blessing in disguise if your ties gets severed with people who keep having silent, passive aggressive temper tantrums over petty faux pas'. They are not worth it and it was their mistake.
In my experience, they know exactly what they are doing. It’s all very calculated and evil.
What was your minor infraction ? Sometimes people walk away in order to maintain their own boundaries and peace of mind. After a neighbor was repeatedly told that we don’t want to listen to her constant stream of foul language, when she continued and even got worse-turning into verbal abuse- the rest of us simply decided to meet without “Potty Mouth” and it has been less stressful for us. We had a choice: protect ourselves or expose ourselves to that treatment. She will have to worry about herself. Not our prob anymore.
If I were Dr. Hales, I might brag a bit about where I’m doing my research. UVA is a highly-respected American university, founded by Thomas Jefferson. They not only draw excellent students, researchers and academics to their campus, but they have a superior athletic program. UVA holds the current men’s NCAA Division 1 Basketball Championship. Go Cavs!
Thank you Lloyd and Dr. Hales for this informative discussion. When you were talking about the sting of ostracism from strangers, I thought of the feeling of not receiving a returned “hello” or smile. Extrapolate that to complete shunning from family and/or friends, and the pain is much deeper indeed. Thanks again!
Not only do JWs ostracise because they’re following orders but we need to add that they also live with the fear that they too would be ostracised themselves if they don’t follow orders.
Yes! That just has to be a part of the whole deal.
Lloyd, you’re really starting to amass an impressive collection of interviews with scholars, experts, and those with personal experience in very important yet varied fields of academia and life generally. It’s a virtual library of useful information. I always learn something new. Looking forward to your next installment.
I found as a JW child that not being allowed to participate in school activities or sports made me feel ostracised, even if it wasn't the other kids doing it. The rules of not associating with worldly people or doing the things they do causes people to feel profoundly alone.
L Love That is so true I saw it first hand as a witness in the three years I went to the congregation. I never saw any kids/ teenagers talk about soccer practice, football, cheerleading, or starring in the school play, no music or dance recitals . I thought it was very sad children need to work on their social skills and be exposed to things. How do you know if your child is good at anything if you don’t let them experience it????? I never understood it.
Great point. Ostracism can be a deadly power tool.
both my children now shun me and the hurt and pain is tangible. it is like a bereavement without ever being able to resolve or heal. I love my children deeply but this act of cruelty has literally floored me .
I have not seen my son for 5 years and my daughter for 2 years now and it hurts daily
This is called parental alienation. It is a symptom of having had a narcissistic spouse
This was such a great video. Thanks for making it. It discuses important issues and important research. I think some of the comments are coming from people who don't understand the different types of research in the field of psychology. Controlled research, what this man does, is limited by ethical restrictions in what it can study but provides extremely valuable data. More anecdotal research of individuals who've experinced religious shunning is a different field of research which provides less reliable data in some ways but can provide valuable perspectives on the issues. Studies into bullying can also provide valuable data on issues relating to shunning and other manipulative tactics.
I was just in Virginia for a month visiting my son and grandchildren, my sons in the Navy,,but ive seen the University, very nice,and a great school,great interview, thanks,and btw ,its Father's day here,happy Father's day to u Lloyd, and all the others dads out there,i lost my daddy a year ago,and i know ur disconnected from ur dad,,its very sad,as life is so short, too short to not spend as much time as u can with ur loved ones, im sorry u have to go thru that,and i hope he realizes one day soon what the real truth is,and u can have him in ur family's life again💙
Im not even a Jehovahs Witness, never have been, never plan on being, and somehow this was still emotionally upsetting to me on a personal level. I cant even place exactly why.
You hurt because it is the cruel side of human nature. When it is mandated by the group you allow the rape of your soul. It is a deep seated weapon of controlling humans. In jdubland it is integral in their DNA
Staniel Das Boot Because it is incredibly cruel, immoral, and disturbing.
Lloyd was gracious enough to give the Patrons a first look at this video. This is fascinating! I strongly urge every subscriber to support Lloyd on Patreon! You get inside looks at his channel and content and chances to interact with him every month. It’s the best decision I’ve made as an ex-JW in the process of healing. Thank you Lloyd for all you do!!!!!
Thank you Monica! Your support is incredible and I'm delighted to offer a small gesture in return whenever I can to those like you who make my work possible! :)
John Cedars 🇺🇸is there a way to become a donator on patreon without it being linked to a bank account?🇬🇧🤔
Maryann Lockwood , you can use PayPal, that’s what I do. It also accepts credit cards.
Monica Owens 🇺🇸thanks!🇬🇧
I wish you two would have more definitively defined the term "shunned." Due to the guest never being a JW, it seemed as if he was unaware of the extent and intensity of "JW shunning." Being absolutely cut off (parents/family don't come even if you're in the hospital, you're homeless and they don't even care and will pass you on the road and intentionally look away) is quite different than (i.e.) not being invited to all the family gatherings or only getting a call from your parent every 6 months. It felt as if you two were talking about two different things. I feel I have more that I could teach him about being ostracized/shunned/thrown away than he currently could teach me about the subject. I would love to talk with him.
I also thought ostrasizm, relates to burying one's head in the sand like an ostrich.
@Hobart Detectorist😂😂😂, that's a good one
I felt this guy was lost...
@@meghandelarosa2443 Right? There is little to no correlation between having lessening contact with strangers (you don't see their faces) for 2 minutes and not being allowed to see your family for decades vs. being kicked out as a minor for no longer believing what your parents believe. It's like comparing finding a fly in your home vs. finding an elephant. One is an annoyance, the other is devastating, destructive and potentially life-threatening.
@@greatdayn4651 So true the disfellowshipping policy really needs to be publicized not just soft soap calling it shunning. It really is a misnomer . (like paedophilia is child rape) If the policy of disfellowshipping was clearly codified and the actual consequences fully explained. Then we would gain some headway. There would be no misunderstanding on either party. Through ignorance or deception. If every child under18 were told if you get disfellowshipped you will be homeless ,before baptism. All families might proceed with caution.
Thanks Lloyd for this nice video, specially when it comes from an expert in this field. Apparently Witchtower has caused us so much pain and listening to this kind of interviews are really helpful to our recovery process
Morpheas Mor witchtower love it
I really think the internet is the best help on the road to recovery. We are all in the same leaky boat and we know it, but it helps to have kindred spirits , regardless of faith, belief etc
I appreciated this discussion on ostracism but quickly realized it was made for folks who dealt with religious shunning or simple ethical research experiments. What about folks like me who are shunned as a result of holding on to family secrets? I was made the black sheep of the family and ostracized for speaking up about domestic violence (physical, psychological and sexual) by members of my family and the perpetrators were not happy and have shunned me ever since. It is indeed emotional blackmail and a power play on their part to seek my silence and conform submissively. It has been a struggle for me, even though I know I was right in breaking the cycle of abuse. As the researcher pointed the options are limited to either conform, get aggressive or withdraw. I chose to isolate and I’m challenged by CPTSD as a result of this. I have also experienced workplace shunning by a clique of women and I made a decision to quit. It stung for a while but I had control and knew that I could find a less toxic workplace and experience healthier work relationships. When it comes to family - It is a lonely road and I have nobody to call family and hardly any friends to lean on. I’m glad that this topic is being discussed openly but I wish I could get some help - it is so excruciatingly painful and lonely in this experience. Yesterday was my godchild’s wedding but I was excluded:-(
@@cabazaba8638 I'm so sorry for your situation. I'm not sure what to say. You could try and find other friends ... life is short
What a great interview! Thank you Lloyd. I faded one year ago and your channel is helping me to stay away from the organization.
Thank you Lloyd, once again! Thank you Andrew Hales, for sharing your field of studies with us, very insightful! I agree, the internet is a wonderful means to educate the public, bringing awareness, as you say. Thanks for caring enough about the subject & sacrificing your time, greatly appreciated! 👏👏👏👏
I know of 3 suicides that occurred in my congregation from those that were SHUNNED by JW family and friends during the 1980's...
So sorry .... 😣😣😣
Wonderful discussion, huge thanks to you both! It's a long time coming. By far the most unnatural & life changing is the shunning by family members. My head goes nuts when I think how gross to remove your
own children that YOU gave birth to! Your own flesh & blood who YOU nurtured & protected all the days of their lives, only to have 8 overfed men snatch them away!
Instead of ostracising the person or people, can’t you just tell them what they did wrong!! Wouldnt that be easier, rather than actively choosing to mentally torture someone.
What an outstanding guest‼️ Excellent interview‼️
It's a horrible, mean thing to ostracize or, worse, to cause others to ostracize another, especially alienating them from the ones they love most (as with relational aggression). You cannot do this to others without harming yourself or your mental health.
Excellent video. Ostracism is a horrible, bullying thing. Whether it's from a religious group or from your family. It's physically and mentally painful. Unfortunately, I know this firsthand.
I've been ostracized by my entire family since age 4 because i reported abuse from a family member. Every family member sided with the abuser against me (at the time i was a 4 year old toddler). It's been 30 years later now and the actions are still taking place. I don't expect my family to ever change their hearts. It's made it impossible to trust people but i am very independent and self motivated. All i have to do is put my mind to it and i succeed. Because of this, i am the most successful out of my immediate family. Where they fail, i succeed (it's also led to the other family members being very competitive with me, an action i never take part in)
Long ago, i reported my abuse so the national statistics show what really happened and the stats can help other victims. Like you stated in the video, maybe with new info on the subject, later generations will be able to find ways to heal from this trauma.
Just listening to your video for the second time & feeling its importance in the progression of our Human experience. We have a lot to learn about ourselves, and as usual we learn the hard way! When religions use this "primal" need for acceptance against us, we need to recognize immediately what is really happening.
Oh yes! You are right. We need to recognize that they are trying to FORCE US TO RETURN or DIE. We need to be very strong and determined to have life our way!! LOVE FREEDOM HAPPINESS FAMILY
Andrew, we're neighbors (I'm in Charlottesville)! SO glad there is some scientific interest in the effects of ostracism. It is such a damaging tool. Looking forward to what future research will show us.
More like this! All your videos are great, but this is really fascinating. Thanks for another great one.
John that was such a balanced and reasonable conversation and it's good to listen to because it's slow placed and there are pauses to digest it.
I always had trouble trying to square a circle when I myself was engaged in wrestling mentally with trying to"justify" acting so cruel when my instincts were telling me otherwise. It's harmful for the perpetrator true but in context is only endured when coming into potential contact with the victim and the perpetrator can choose not to shun. The victim has no choice. The victim has to ensure 24/7 365 days This discussion helped me to at least understand the mechanics of ostracism if not only for the purpose of undercutting any residual sympathies for Watchtower's so called justification and rationale.
Again many thanks.
This is the most painful experience I have ever had to endure in my life. My story is much too long to relate here, but I finally found a site is addressing how I've felt for years. I felt so guilty even turning in for the last 2 days listening to the different stories told by ex witnesses. I'm just starting the road to awareness into the control of this organization and, at this point, I don't know if I'll ever recover or be able to trust anyone again.
S
Linda Smith I feel for you. I haven't went to meetings since November...hard to imagine we all blindly believed/shunned/judged. You will be ok...and also better.
I recently read a book called "so you don't want to go to church anymore" not something I would ever buy but it was a quarter at a yard sale...I couldn't put it down and read it in two days...if you get a chance google it. It helped my heart be more peaceful...and I hope it will help you also. You are not alone.
I spent almost an entire minute looking at the thumbnail trying to figure out how ostracism is different from regular racism. I'm an idiot.
I clicked cause ostracism sounds like ostrich so we're on the same team I guess. Or maybe just me.
Thankyou so much for this video
So interesting! Thank you gentlemen.
Excellent that you are exploring these topics. The consequences on both those being shunned and those doing the shunning are far reaching. Just the tip of the iceberg! Keep up the great work!
Fascinating interview!
I hope that the Governing Body would have concern for its religious community and assess with professionals the harmful effects of disfellowshipping and shunning.
I was so ostracized by my wife's family that I didn't even know that my wife was being thrown a 50th birthday party in 2019. My wife found the invitations in her brother's room. I ended up dressing up, helping set up and take down for the party, and putting food away. But I definitely attended to be there for my wife. What could anyone say about me being there? None of my wife's family talked to me.
My family and I was very much ostracized in the congregations two out three congregations that We've been to as a teenager by the kids my age in the hall and then as an young adult I don't know why I put up with it for as long as I did, the mistreatment they gave me and my family was because of being labeled as bad association from the first one, as now I realize that that is what it was. I have social issues I contend with now because of them and others too. My siblings and I were picked on as little kids by ones inside was later but outside as little kids. Then as older was just the JWs I at least did have friends outside as a teenager during that time. I should have left a sooner than I did though, I was actually the last one in after everyone else in my family had stopped.
Yeah that happens. I remember a family that seemed ostracised. They were called "The Fat Family" behind their backs.. They were a family of 7 with no father. They were huge people.Very country folk. They loved each other and laughed easily. They were really poor. I visited them and saw their circumstances. People helped them out but it wasnt enough. The older boys got jobs and girlfriends and the congregation never saw them again. One by one they stopped coming. Then the whole family moved away. And that was the last we saw of them. Some people, myself included just don't thrive in the new regimented computerized JW-CYBORG religion.
@@celticfiddle7605 it is sad how they treat some of the members
Thanks Lloyd & Andrew for this therapeutic look at shunning/ostracism. We share the wound of paternal shunning and, I hope, that this appealing video will bring us, the WTB&TS walking wounded, to some peace with the loss of fathers, mothers, children and friends to all those affected in the course of sociopathic tyranny of the Governing Body.
In my experience, people will often ostracize the person in the social grouping who is the lowest status, the most expendable, or the least costly to get rid of. They can know perfectly well that the scapegoat is innocent of the accusations and even that the person making them is lying. But if they know, even subconsciously, that the person making the accusations either has more power or is more likely to go to great lengths in punishing people (or both), they will go along with that person. And this can happen even among liberal, social-justice-oriented Unitarians, not just obedient, conservative JWs. Most of it happens below the level of consciousness, and as you say, once people have ostracized someone for long enough, they're unwilling to revisit that decision.
This has also been my experience. Ostracism most often happens to the expendable.
Im going to disagree with you on this. Believing the ostracized one is expendable is a RESULT of them being ostracized. Often people are ostracized out of jealousy. We see this in the work place when an employee is doing well, yet isnt interested in office politics. We see it in female friend groups when a girl with better social skills is jealous of another girl in the group (meaning she has a reason to be jealous)
Look at the most useless person tho. They are docile, submissive and tenacious. They get to stay in the group but the talented person who keeps to themself doesn’t, why is that?
Its bc they dont appear as a threat to the leader and bc they make themselves useful. They person calling the shots finds them safe.
I appreciate this episode so much. I am a scapegoat, layers of grief attached to this. This conversation has been validating.
Like so many others who appreciate your work, Lloyd, I am deeply affected by the shunning received from my former family members and friends. I say former family members because right now I don't consider them family after the way they have cut me off. These are die-hard JW bc I was one too, so it's what I expected. But the pain is devastating when you stop to "ruminate" over it, so I try to avoid it by "insulating" myself to avoid further pain. Two points that your guest highlighted with precision. More need to speak out against this form of abuse. Just when you think things are getting better, an experience causes the wound to be reopened. I never would have imagined not speaking to my dearest brother for over a year, or being labeled by my family as apostate. But your channel along with others continues to fortify me to stay strong for myself and my kids and enjoy the happiness of knowing they will not grow up to think shunning family members bc your religion tells you to is right! Thank you!
Thanks Lloyd for doing this interview. It took years of soft shunning to realize I was being ostracized in the congregation. I just assumed that everyone just didn't like my personality. So just as Andrew explains, I became introverted / depressed and tried to figure out what was wrong with me. Eventually I just backed off from associating and left the congregation all together. I was left trying to reconcile the fact that these "true christians with the identifying mark of love" had shown me no love at all.
Over a decade after leaving WT and thanks to yours and other EX JW youtube channels, I was awakened that my soft shunning was more likely due to the fact that I had a beard, did not put elders on pedestals nor hand in my monthly hours, mark watchtower mags etc (yeah stupid I know).
Since leaving I have set up and currently run 2 barbershops with over 8 employees now working and have made many friends within my local community. So i guess my personality isn't so bad after all.
Keep up the great work Lloyd, your videos have helped me to close that chapter of my life.
Shunning is more like a weapon of mass destruction
After 2+ years I am accepting my life sentence I feel. Ostracized by my family most all of who I called friends and church and community. It has ruined my life I feel and I'm still not sure why? It's most horribly damaging to a humans life.
Thank you so much for this video. It was thought provoking and helpful. I'm being actively shunned by congregation members who are "still reacting" to my "sudden" choice to disassociate. Even though I haven't made a meeting in 5 years, and have been out for more years than that mentally, they still feel the need to act affronted. Just for giggles I act like I'm shunning them right back. It's working pretty well so far. The worst offender actually seemed to get what I was doing and is no longer reacting to my mere presence. Peer pressure is really a two-way street.
Thank you for sharing this video . .God’s Love is greater .Thank you to the True teachings of Jesus ( Words ) , it set us all free .We are all connected .We have to remember to pray for our fellow brothers and sisters because they were scared too, to be shun .I read some article that they use this technique , in the past from different group , even for smaller things or just being suspicious or just because they don’t like you .The whole point here , its not Good .We need to associate with other people though we are cautious but like a dove .Thank you brother for sharing this video .it’s getting more clearer .Jesus true teachings and our current brothers and sisters ministering to all of Us ( past , present and future ) set us all free .indeed .
I'm so glad I have found a word from what I've been experiencing within current and past workplaces.
It’s easier to give your love to somone, or invest your time and effort in new relationships if you know that you are loved already. If you have your comfort in someone elses love (like love from God, your parents, your best friend, or your spouse) it’s easier to handle rejection, negative response, critisism, shunning etc. 1 John 4:19 “We love because he first loved us”. GOD LOVES YOU VERY MUCH!!!
I must first say...I ❤️ love the pic of Tony Morris and Stephen Lett!!...Priceless! 😂😂😂
Lloyd, Thank you for your courage in bringing this dark cult to light.
My mom used silent treatment on me at home if I told her something she didn't like to hear. Then in school I was shunned and harassed. Having friends to play with on my street where I lived helped. I think being shunned at home and in school that really helped me be strong and leave when I noticed I had no friends in the congregation either. I'm an observer. Once I have observed enough.. I will make my decision and leave. That applies for jobs as well.
So the painful effects of ostracism make the ostracized person more likely to conform to social norms unquestioningly... Hm, makes for the perfect mind control tactic then, doesn't it?
Extremely interesting. I see this is an old upload, but I'd be very interested in participating in a study about this subject. No set-up or test subjects needed. I've felt ostracized for 15 years. I'm not sure if this is the result of mental and emotional abuse I endured for around 10 years, coupled with a lifelong low self esteem from being ostracized and bullied in school. The low self esteem, I'm certain, made me the perfect target for someone who would be capable of inflicting that kind of abuse, as well as making me the perfect candidate to allow that type of behavior to continue. I'm (once again) seeing counseling for this. I'm very driven to find out more about this subject, mostly to make the last 15 years count for something, for something positive that could help others. You rarely, or I haven't anyway, seen much research on this. I would be extremely interested to find out what affects this has had on my mental health and physical health. For instance, I've felt suicidal. I absolutely would never act on that, because I want to live. I want to live like everyone else and not have this daily disappointment and chest-crushing physical pain that comes with being or perceiving that you're ostracized. Looking into this.
That was wonderful.
I've always been left out as a child and it's now happening in my adult life.. my mother 3sisters and brother all go on holidays they've recently had a wedding I have not been invited to any. Then they just go on long enough to forget my pain and go on like nothing happened that's more painful 💔
I really think we should have a study where a person who is consistently ostracized goes into an environment and just lets it play out and then a professional comes in and interviews as many members of the group as possible to find out what they were thinking would be a really useful study
I am an ostracized person I believe .Social isolation is very difficult but I am self employed and do a creative job that still keeps me a little happy
What do you do ?
@@shamyshamuswow213 I am a music composer.
Excellent interview with astute use of questions to clarify the impacts of ostracism. My postgraduate studies on group conformity (Asch’s work on group pressure comes to mind) are well in the past (1980s), but Andrew Hales gave a very helpful update (e.g., cyberball) of the research. I could have listened to your conversation for hours- so informative and thought-provoking.
The other aspect that figures in this area is psychological resilience: Those people who thrive and come into their own after they have been subjected to shunning - we see lots of people here who display psychological hardiness/resilience. Research into these types of empowered responses may help illuminate what helps people not just cope but become even happier and more fulfilled once they leave.
I've been a witness for my whole life 40 years (whole family & extended family minus my siblings are also) currently my husband and I are "waking up" it's an emotional roller coaster but also SO very clear that it isn't "the truth" and there is no going back.
I'm reading a book currently 'Messy Spirituality' and in it he refers to a Shel Silverstein poem, I grew up with these silly poems with deeper meanings...I recently sold my kids copy which makes this even stranger so I had to google a poem he talked about. It's called THE ONE WHO STAYED. A simple poem that any witness that spent their adolescents especially in this religion and finally left could relate too. When I read it my heart became heavy with emotions. - most of the young ones I grew up with left and my own older siblings were never baptized but I felt torn and could not leave my other believing family behind. Until now. But my hope is that more will wake up. I hope others can relate to this also.
THE ONE WHO STAYED
By Shel Silverstein
You should have heard the old men cry,
You should have heard the biddies
When that sad stranger raised his flute
And piped away the kiddies.
Katy, Tommy, Meg and Bob
Followed skipping gaily,
Red-haired Ruth, my brother Rob,
And little crippled Bailey,
John and Nils and Cousin Clare,
Dancin', spinnin', turnin'
'Cross the hills to God knows where--
They never came returnin'.
'Cross the hills to God knows where
The piper pranced, a leadin'
Each child in Hamlin Town but me,
And I stayed home unheedin'.
My papa says that I was blest
For if that music found me,
I'd be witch-cast like the rest.
This town grows cold around me.
I cannot say I did not hear
That sound so haunting hollow--
I heard, I heard, I heard it clear. . .
I was afraid to follow.
I suppose since I’m here I’ll share what happened to me. When I was 12 I moved to a small school with only about 350 kids in the middle and high school combined. In middle school everything was fine, I had friends and ok relationships with teachers. During my 8th grade year Covid hit and I didn’t go back to school till my sophomore year. Everything was different for me when I went back, all the friends I had moved away so I was alone. People just ignored me to the point where I couldn’t even get help from teachers because I was invisible to them too. I spent my sophomore year just trying to ignore it. When my junior year started everything was the same and I started skipping classes in the most obvious way by just sitting in the hall and still nobody ever said anything to me. Eventually I stopped trying and my grades plunged, I eventually dropped out of school because I felt so lonely and depressed. I’m currently doing a GED and plan on going to Community College afterwards.
Oh, my.. Ouch. Im really sorry and Im so proud of you for taking care of yourself. ❤
🇺🇸have a summer cold and miserable. Thanks for posting Lloyd. Made me feel better. 🤧🇬🇧
Get well soon Maryann! :)
John Cedars 🇺🇸😌🇬🇧
It helps to know that the anxiety, self-doubt and seeking for what we've done wrong that are brought on through being ostracized or dealing with the silent treatment are irrational - that they are emotions without any rational basis that needs to be 'figured out' or 'uncovered' through personal forensics. The best way to work through actual flaws or real mistakes is through dialog, not in imposed isolation. Just being able to let that irrational response pass - like an anxiety attack - is very effective. To know that your brain is producing a response independent of any facts or reasons - and that this response just needs to calm down - is comforting in the big picture.
I am always the shunned and do not know why.
Me too
Most JW feel shunning is loving discipline. They trust elders to have judged the person as unrepentant. They feel righteously entitled to have a part in the correction of a person.
My involvement with the JW org. Has been an eye opener. Attending their meetings and watching those awful monthly Watchtower broadcasts have strengthened my belief that Shunning is a breach of a person's human rights and should be outlawed.
Thank you. Great interview. The JW shunning isn’t scriptural and it certainly is cruel.
One dislike. Some men just want to watch the world burn, I guess. 🔥
Six, now.
Someone who had become a white supremacist stopped in part due to the kindness shown to him from Jews, blacks, and other minorities. Would not have happened if he had been ostracized. He wrote a book and has speaking engagements. As a youth he was a marginalized individual and his parents were too busy. He met up with white supremacists who befriended him.
I feel sorry for all the Jehovah’s Witnesses that are trapped and don’t want to be part of this family breaking organisation. So many of them living secret double lives and going to meetings just to please others. I was one of them.
That scene with the guy being left alone out of the game the look on his face ,that look is way too familiar.Just recall the face of anyone read off at the KH.
Just more proof that shunning is harmful to the self both the shunner and the shunnie! I think I made up those words!😄
I was ostracized in 8 th grade for the school year. It was excruciatingly painful and shameful and I still haven’t recovered but created a similar scenario several times in my life. My mother didn’t talk to me for 2 years as an older teen. At one job where I was the only woman, the ignorant men withdrew their attention for awhile. By then I knew how to deal with it and thought it was normal. Seriously I still do not trust people.
In the lifetime of hunter gatherers you were dead immediately when shunned,this is still remembered in our system.
One elder was on the fence and then Dr. Hales mentioned "evolution", then he changed the channel.
Very informative. Thx!
I'm really glad Andrew mentioned evolution, and what he said makes total sense.
@@LloydEvans yes, it does. I was thinking that there was a fence-sitting elder who was being persuaded by his argument, then heard him mention evolution and tossed everything out the window. I will have to investigate Cyberball now.
@@timtoney669 If they're not ready to have their ideas challenged by new information there's not much that can be done. I'm glad you've found this video informative!
@@LloydEvans challenge ideas?!? Then we would lose Jehovah's helping hand and KHs won't get built or we'd appoint the wrong men as elders... wait.
Srsly, I enjoy having the unbiased experts chiming in giving balanced explainations.
Happy father's day btw, if you all have that over there.
Amazing interview
The way I have handled my disfellowshpping is that I DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE IT!!
I work with a JW gal who at first shunned me. But I continue to say hello and goodbye and compliment her clothes and hair and laugh with everyone. At first she was forced by sheer peer pressure to say hello back to me but now we are pretty comfortable interacting. It has been one year.I mean it is so obvious that I am so much happier now!!! OMG everyone has noticed that. I laugh and enjoy people so much more. I am so free to love and enjoy life now! She though is stuck, depressed and on meds. My heart goes out to her and I want to help her get out of the borg too. I will continue to be friendly and happy around her and be there for her when she needs me.
Dear Lloyd, you should send some pictures of your kids and family to your dad. You should tell him that you love him. I would! Never mind their rules! You make the rules. It is your life. Get your father out.
Greetings... I have been trying to look for the book Crisis of Conscience but I'm having a hard time knowing which one to buy. I have found one with a photograph of Raymond Franz and another with a grey colored background with white and red letters. Is there a difference between the 2 books? If someone can help me out I would greatly appreciate it! God bless.
S.S Flower they may be two different editions, but either should be fine, i got it from Apple Books online and its the most recent version. That book is a game changer = it changed my life - its powerful.
@@MjrMjr-tt3kn thank you so much for replying. Yes, I have heard only great things about it. Did you get the with his photograph or the wording? I can't wait to read it!!!
@@MjrMjr-tt3knwhat is this book about ?
I live this. It is very hard for me to make friends and keep friends because of this.
Super topic, Lloyd, very well done!
I just took a job where the metrics are very high, I'm so skilled in this type of environment that I'm able to meet the metrics and beyond...I'm so good I was asked to show people how I make my metrics and it helped them as well, okay we go to the office and these very people that helped started ostracizing me..why I have no answer, I'm only familiar with ostracizing because this happens to me on every job I get. Do you think I could get a job accommodation to work from home due to me being a target of bullying
Try getting screened for autism or ppd or severe anxiety. Very common with these things happening. Your job may have to accomodate your disability, if you are diagnosed. I have no reason to think you have these things, other than its common with these issues at work. Try reading 48 laws of power as well. “Never outshine the master”
Another thing, experts on workplace bullying say that bullying targets are “exceptionally skilled and uninvolved in office politics” so part of it may be your skill that made you a target. I deal with this exact thing a lot too
I can related to this bcoz I am a person with visual disability n people in the society not all of them but a few do this to me they always make fun of me n my visual problem keep me away from them n this happens regularly within my so called frnds grp they come near me for assignmentsnor notes n rest of the time they make fun of low visionn after some time i got used to it but some times it really hits me n relatives are the mostntoxic i am from India n people in the society n relatives tell me u are a girl with defect no one should marry you as you would bring bad luck to the family n if at all u get married it should be a man who is atleast 20 years older brother me n frnds tell u can't survive without us u must be greatful that we allowed you to be frds with us
People in college never sit near me Or they never let me sit near them
I am one of the topppets of my class n frds sau you fooled teachers with your sad story n get marks
On the other hand appreciate me instead of all these problems I come up with rising colors but the percentage is very very less
Even people like us are humans with emotions like you all just the difference is we have a small fefect n sometimes need your help n they show asnif they doing a favour
I have been a victim for ostracism n nullying i stopped caring bcoz it's going on from a decade but it's me at times n i have no real frds to whom I can go n talk
The only request is from people don't these thi gs to us n dont feel pity on us justbyreat us as a normal person n sometimes when we need help extend it datsnit
There's shunning and then there's the silent treatment you get when you don't quite do something the way someone else wants you to, so even within their rules there are micro rules. Has anyone else experienced this??
Its not just religion ostracizing people; political groups are engaging in this behavior
🌞Wow, this is a great video. I hope it gets shared a lot!
Lloyd, your comment about how witnesses who participate in ostracism against their own heart reminds me of the dynamic of a group of kids who bully... Sometimes the kids follow the leader, but don't necessarily feel the personal conviction to do so. Hence why some witnesses will still have SECRET contact with a disfellowshipped one. Its very sad how they are stuck in an organization which does not allow their people to be AUTHENTIC! Having been one of those myself, I truly pity those who feel helpless and stuck in an organization which does not allow them to think freely. Or to have free agency to come or go as they please :(