I cannot thank you enough for your videos. You're so knowledgeable and willing to explain things in such detail. The why's so to speak. I am about to try my own amateurish attempt at reviving an old violin that was my wife's great grandfather's. Nothing special, just one of those old sazuki violins from 1920's. But one of the better ones I think since the wood has a lot of that "tiger strips" on the back. Luckily not a crack on it after all this. But the man was a fiddler at heart and he played that violin every single day for nearly 70 years before he passed. So as someone who doesn't have a luthier within 100+ miles of me. Thank you for these videos. I will definitely be watching every single one of them!
Hey, so glad you are enjoying and learning! Best of luck with that very special violin and hopefully it is playing in your family for years to come! Cheers!
You're right! Hmm--most of the high end pianos "antique" ones have two different finish materials. The rib side or under side seems to be shellac. Tho top side seems to be a picture type varnish, it has a piny odor when sanding, and the underside does not. One thing----- picture varnish is very resistant to extreme yellowing. Top of SB. Shellac is the best moisture barrier of these organic finishes. Rib side of SB. It might result in wolf tones----maybe. It would certainly stiffen the material considerably.
Hi Nate! Is it good to do it on new instruments as well? Luthiers put casein, calcium hydrates, etc... Is it good to apply a thin layer of shellac on it? I don't make violins, etc., but folk instruments called Tamburitza. All kind. And some old masters used glass powder with shellac, for better resonance. You take a glass bottle and grind it into powder with a hammer, as much as you can. You filter the broken glass through a dense sieve and mix it with shellac and spread a thin layer on the bottom board.
Dear Tabor,I just discover you on UA-cam and the idea of reflecting from the back seem interesting to try it.When you talk about alcalin varnish ,do you mean shellack or another kind of varnish.If I understand you put varnish only in the back ?Mario Lamarre luthier
Doesn't adding the paper to the sides reduce the amount of resonance also? like hanging carpet on a wall as you said? or don't the sides have that much a play in the resonance as a whole? ECF
There is a long history of really thick parchment inside instruments, Colichon, in viola da gambas, countless instruments. The glue actually creates a kind of slick surface. But I really do not think a thin paper acts as any damping. More important is to prevent cracks, as the most dangerous place for a musical instrument, is the restoration workshop. The most dangerous thing is for some barbarian goon 50 years from now, to open up your violin and do "repairs" etc. Then start thinning the top, and other barbarian things.
You are right. He is a violist, doesn't understand the properties of normal thinking. It does dampen the sound. Phillip Injeian this his ribs to 1 mill. I prefer 1.5 finishing the inside is correct, although this is not the proper way.
yeah 1mm makes me nervous. I made a great career not doing things the "proper" way. If it sounds good..etc...I prefer not to have the cracks 100 years from now, and sooner or later, the instrument gets banged against a music stand. @@buttrock7106
Interesting Nate, I have been considering how the reflective properties of the back might be improved. The varnish your using is it shellac and alcohol, or a full spirit varnish. Could you explain the ingredients?
Many years ago, I worked with an elderly violin maker who burnished his violins. After scraping, he would burnish with a piece of agate, inside and out. The inside of his instruments were finished with a thin layer of sodium silicate.
yes just shellac flakes from Hammerl/Joha in Germany...mixed 50/50 with 99% pure alcohol. This gives a pretty thick varnish and allows one to add color/with more alcohol etc. Be sure to order dewaxed flakes. they are usually blond and golden transparent.
Is the paper part cotton and part from wood pulp? Or does it even matter? Also, does it matter what pound paper is used? I've been a printer before. Different pounds of paper refer to the thicknesses of the paper. Why not use dollar bills?
yes the older the book, the thicker the paper tends to be. I do not think that any paper really adds weight, and thus too much damping, but really thick heavy bond, new paper might not be a good idea unless you really wet it first and saturate with glue. Really just any old 19th Century book will work. Usually this is something I do when I thin the ribs to 1.3mm, which is required often with heavy flamed maple in order the be able to do any accurate bending. The paper is just a kind of insurance policy against future cracks, etc.
You are better off using linen. Best not to do this at all. The ribs should be free to allow for proper resonance. Everything in this video makes me uncomfortable. The factor of him working on violas makes sense.
I do parchment patches as well. Not my favorite.. but I dislike having to anything to repair somebody's building mistake. Just worked on a Joseph Curtain violin that was 10 years old and the top was collapsing. I use sandpaper also.. Just a jest.
around 1.5mm and probably best to go a little thinner at the corners for easy bending. For cello I go as thick at 1.8 to even 2mm knowing that cello ribs can get banged by the bow frog and often crack. Most specs do not designate this, you should use your own judgement..if using slab cut ribs go thicker. Pear bends like a dream, flame maple is a royal pain and usually has to be thinner, thus cracks etc.
As always. Explaining how he does it, but not why it produces the desired effect, sort of physical explanation is lacking. Evidence, research - nothing. Real knowledge and convincing evidence comes only after comparing the same thing BEFORE and AFTER, doing several tests with different instruments.
I cannot thank you enough for your videos. You're so knowledgeable and willing to explain things in such detail. The why's so to speak. I am about to try my own amateurish attempt at reviving an old violin that was my wife's great grandfather's. Nothing special, just one of those old sazuki violins from 1920's. But one of the better ones I think since the wood has a lot of that "tiger strips" on the back. Luckily not a crack on it after all this. But the man was a fiddler at heart and he played that violin every single day for nearly 70 years before he passed. So as someone who doesn't have a luthier within 100+ miles of me. Thank you for these videos. I will definitely be watching every single one of them!
Hey, so glad you are enjoying and learning! Best of luck with that very special violin and hopefully it is playing in your family for years to come! Cheers!
Thank you; your inside treatment makes a lot of sense being the physics seem to be surface tensions at the end. Very helpful instructions.
Your very welcome and best of luck with your instruments! cheers from Spain!
You're right!
Hmm--most of the high end pianos "antique" ones have two different finish materials.
The rib side or under side seems to be shellac.
Tho top side seems to be a picture type varnish, it has a piny odor when sanding, and the underside does not.
One thing----- picture varnish is very resistant to extreme yellowing. Top of SB.
Shellac is the best moisture barrier of these organic finishes. Rib side of SB.
It might result in wolf tones----maybe.
It would certainly stiffen the material considerably.
That is fascinating. Have you ever seen any Cypress Soundboards? I am using it for back material on a cello and viola... ITS VERY RESONANTE!
Yes.
Google Cyprus soundboards.@@natetabormusic
Eu gostei muito do trabalho parabéns
moitas grazas!
Hi Nate! Is it good to do it on new instruments as well? Luthiers put casein, calcium hydrates, etc... Is it good to apply a thin layer of shellac on it? I don't make violins, etc., but folk instruments called Tamburitza. All kind. And some old masters used glass powder with shellac, for better resonance. You take a glass bottle and grind it into powder with a hammer, as much as you can. You filter the broken glass through a dense sieve and mix it with shellac and spread a thin layer on the bottom board.
Dear Tabor,I just discover you on UA-cam and the idea of reflecting from the back seem interesting to try it.When you talk about alcalin varnish ,do you mean shellack or another kind of varnish.If I understand you put varnish only in the back ?Mario Lamarre luthier
Doesn't adding the paper to the sides reduce the amount of resonance also? like hanging carpet on a wall as you said? or don't the sides have that much a play in the resonance as a whole? ECF
There is a long history of really thick parchment inside instruments, Colichon, in viola da gambas, countless instruments. The glue actually creates a kind of slick surface. But I really do not think a thin paper acts as any damping. More important is to prevent cracks, as the most dangerous place for a musical instrument, is the restoration workshop. The most dangerous thing is for some barbarian goon 50 years from now, to open up your violin and do "repairs" etc. Then start thinning the top, and other barbarian things.
You are right. He is a violist, doesn't understand the properties of normal thinking. It does dampen the sound. Phillip Injeian this his ribs to 1 mill. I prefer 1.5 finishing the inside is correct, although this is not the proper way.
yeah 1mm makes me nervous. I made a great career not doing things the "proper" way. If it sounds good..etc...I prefer not to have the cracks 100 years from now, and sooner or later, the instrument gets banged against a music stand. @@buttrock7106
Interesting Nate, I have been considering how the reflective properties of the back might be improved. The varnish your using is it shellac and alcohol, or a full spirit varnish. Could you explain the ingredients?
Many years ago, I worked with an elderly violin maker who burnished his violins. After scraping, he would burnish with a piece of agate, inside and out. The inside of his instruments were finished with a thin layer of sodium silicate.
yes just shellac flakes from Hammerl/Joha in Germany...mixed 50/50 with 99% pure alcohol. This gives a pretty thick varnish and allows one to add color/with more alcohol etc. Be sure to order dewaxed flakes. they are usually blond and golden transparent.
Is the paper part cotton and part from wood pulp? Or does it even matter? Also, does it matter what pound paper is used? I've been a printer before. Different pounds of paper refer to the thicknesses of the paper.
Why not use dollar bills?
yes the older the book, the thicker the paper tends to be. I do not think that any paper really adds weight, and thus too much damping, but really thick heavy bond, new paper might not be a good idea unless you really wet it first and saturate with glue. Really just any old 19th Century book will work. Usually this is something I do when I thin the ribs to 1.3mm, which is required often with heavy flamed maple in order the be able to do any accurate bending. The paper is just a kind of insurance policy against future cracks, etc.
You are better off using linen. Best not to do this at all. The ribs should be free to allow for proper resonance. Everything in this video makes me uncomfortable. The factor of him working on violas makes sense.
haha viola makers are lesser talented for sure! @@buttrock7106
@@buttrock7106 Colichon used parchment in his gambas. amazingly resonante. linen scares me too, too thick! But thanks!
I do parchment patches as well. Not my favorite.. but I dislike having to anything to repair somebody's building mistake. Just worked on a Joseph Curtain violin that was 10 years old and the top was collapsing. I use sandpaper also.. Just a jest.
What is the original thickness of the ribs?
around 1.5mm and probably best to go a little thinner at the corners for easy bending. For cello I go as thick at 1.8 to even 2mm knowing that cello ribs can get banged by the bow frog and often crack. Most specs do not designate this, you should use your own judgement..if using slab cut ribs go thicker. Pear bends like a dream, flame maple is a royal pain and usually has to be thinner, thus cracks etc.
Why didn't everybody do that?
Well, everyone has their own methods... I swear this really does seem to help with resonance, unless its all in my head. 😳
Because it's wrong.
Hallo Nate, ich bin dankbar für deine Arbeit, könntest Du auch mehr Deutsch sprechen. Besonders wenn du etwas antikisiert. Danke. Garry
As always. Explaining how he does it, but not why it produces the desired effect, sort of physical explanation is lacking. Evidence, research - nothing. Real knowledge and convincing evidence comes only after comparing the same thing BEFORE and AFTER, doing several tests with different instruments.