E3M1 is a testament to Petersen's fascination with monster infighting. It's deliberately designed to force you to save ammo and let monsters attack each other. The issue is, either shooting all of the monsters with a pistol or be dependent on the monsters random behavior aren't fun.
@aruan7sp Correct. And also if you aren't as committed to monster infighting as Petersen, he provides you the alternative option: lure the Cacodemons out, run past them, grab the shottie from the collapsing bridge, then come back and fight them with more firepower. Plus, returning to the level (with a twist!) for E3M9 is devilish. Much more going on than people often credit it for.
E2M2 nudges you into berserk fisting enemies instead of shooting them. There is low ammo, the introduction of the berserk pack, and no hitscanners. You're supposed to Mike Tyson your way through the level.
Downtown isn't actually that bad once you learn how to beat it. My strategy is pressing the "I" key on my keyboard, followed by "d, c, l, e, v, 1 and 4". That gets rid of the headache pretty quick xD
Most of the complaints you have seem to stem from impatience and wanting to blaze through a map at high speed. If that's your play style, then those are valid complaints, however if you're patient and methodical, you can have a very different experience. For example, E3M1 to me is a thinking-person's level. It's scarce on ammo, and the cacos at the beginning are deliberately there to stop you from just blazing through Rambo-style. The fact that you can CLOSE the door (and the cacos cannot open it) is also a key. First, don't kill the imps. Open the door, let one caco out, close it. Let the caco get hit by an imp fireball so it infights, then run up behind the caco and start punching. Repeat with the second caco. Finish with your pistol if needed. The shotgun bridge is an obvious trap to force you to run into the invisible wall where the imps are hiding, or panic and drop into the hot red stuff. When you reach the second room with a caco and a bunch of imps, get them to infight again, and they'll do most of the work for you. The pinky hallway is also easy. Just punch them, and tap forward and backward to time their bites to avoid taking damage and they'll pretty much stay in place and die one by one. By the time you reach the end you have plenty of shotgun ammo to polish off the imps and still have ammo left for the next map.
@@ShowToddSomeLove I’ve beaten Plutonia on UV-max and I still prefer tnt over it. Its not a skill issue, but an aesthetic and fun issue. Everyone has their preferences.
I prefer TNT. TNT is uneven but there's at least a feeling of progression and a journey. Every map in plutonia looks and plays the exact same. (Except hunted I guess) It used to be a novelty mapset for its difficulty but it's been far outpaced in the years since.
@@mja2317 Most of Plutonia seems to be just "headbutt wall until something works" and/or "fight a slog of monsters, often involving very lazy ambushes"
I think what would help Limbo is the idea that when entering the different red key teleporters, each room would have a switch that would raise a safe path that would allow you to return as needed when getting the order right. It would add a much needed sense of progression, possible bread crumbing and way of coordinating when you have been AND allow safe traversal to solve the order of needed. In saying that id be interested in seeing a revised map pck release that contains some of the more controversial levels of classic doom, but with mappers putting their own spin in ‘salvaging’ or saving what could work about said maps. Would interesting seeing a somewhat new spin on older maps but with solutions that mappers can devise
Central Processing is like the prototype of a hundred current era user wads. Vast, epic in scale, some incredible terrain and architecture, there had been nothing like it in a commercial Doom wad at that point. But it's got some screwy ideas that tear it down. I remember as a kid hating both the exit switch that isn't a switch and isn't obvious what you need to do to exit, and also that puzzling choice to make progress through a break in the wire fence that you can barely see and would need to be looking at every inch of the fence in order to find. These two things aside, I don't hate it. :)
Doom 2 is as much a tech demo as a game. It is the developers throwing ideas out there and saying, "Here, we know that you can do some wild stuff with this!" And they were right.
I HATE E2M3, Refinery, with a burning passion. It is such a vibe killer from the previous two maps, it gets to the point where literally every single time I've played through Doom (excluding the first time because I was unaware of the torment this map is), I had to take multiple day long breaks from playing the game to mentally prepare to digest such fecal matter. Because I'd rather do anything else than to go through that forsaken level. I'd rather pistol start Plutonia on Nightmare than play that stupid map. I hate the layout, I hate the enemy placement, I hate the stupid strobe room with the Imps and Lost Souls, I hate all of the poison floors, I hate the fact that you need to jump into a lava pit to get a plasma gun, I hate the secrets, I hate the confusing progression, I even hate the song that plays. It feels like the guys over at Id didn't want to think about this unholy abomination any more than they had to, so they just slapped a random song on it and called it a day, but they inadvertently chose the one song that sucks for long-form play, which will it end up being anyway because of the tedious secrets and that I try to forget this map exists, yet my unbridled rage for it manages to keep it lodged in my memory like air-dried silly putty in a bookbag. The only good part of the map is that it gives you a berserk pack so I can nourish my brain with anything that isn't physically dealing with the layout, but E2M2 does the "here's a berserk, go punch the demons to death" premise infinitely better. But that's not saying much, because any increase from zero is an infinity. If I die and go to Hell, my eternal punishment will be playing this map.
I think Map 05 of Going Down does Wormhole's gimmick a whole lot better, especially because you HAVE to interact with it to beat the level, instead of it being tucked away in a corner people could easily miss.
@@ReepEnTeer It is odd that the other half of Wormhole's map is completely optional. I would have missed it on my first playthrough of TnT if not for being thorough due to perplexion as to why I was missing so many monsters, items, and secrets. TnT has several levels where large chunks of the map are optional, some requiring keys that are optional to find too.
@@ReepEnTeer And things you do in one version of the map actually affect the other version- the pillar you need to use to get the yellow key, the soul sphere secret.
Downtown also has a bug where an elevator gets stuck which prevents you from being able to access a key and soft-locks your game. You have to load a save (if you have one) from an earlier level and try again.
Yeah, apart from generally being an unenjoyable level, this elevator bug screwed me over, and I just stopped playing the game entirely. I was even playing the updated version on Xbox, so it's crazy to me that this bug hasn't just been fixed over the years.
@@KingSvenDeluxe actually you can, i did it to not the trough thy flesh consumed, and i got the achievment, i just oppened the console and used the cheats there
E3M5: Unholy Cathedral and his stupid teleporter puzzle is in the top 5 for me. It's an big annoyance and i hate big annoyance more than boring levels. You can do a boring level in automatic pilot and without having a bad feeling. Some boring lvels are fine to play sometimes, they're generally quite chill. But annoyances, you hate them, i hate them, they ruin a level. I can bear with some small annoyance, like some traps (Plutonia, DOOM 64, Sandy Pettersen's maps in DOOM 2 are full of them), but big annoyances that make you lost in a level or block you for a long time, it's a big no ! E3M2: Slough of Despair is a mess, with small corridors where you can't really move, it's not the choice you should make for a DOOM game where your player is fast and can circle-strafe. It's more fitting to have a lots of space to move in a FAST-FPS ! Another annoyance. The chasm do that too, but in a way more bearable. It's not small corridors, but tiny ledges, and not in the hole map. TNT 11 : Storage Facility is also a mess, it's a labyrinth, a bad one. And i hate badly done labyrinths. Habitat is a big labyrinth, too, and i hate it. TNT : Metal is awfull, don't make huge rooms just to put a few hitscanners rendering the huge space useless. I hate dying too much without being able to do anything. I understand why Limbo and The factory are in the list, but for people who love to explore big maps, they are bearable. Not good, bearable, not more. Hell keep is fine for a first map, it's not a complex map, it just lack amunitions, could be worse.And you can save ammo with the punch, in the pinky corridor. Could be better, but not horrible. As you may see, i hate space badly use in DOOM. TNT evilution is often culprit for that, because of the big maps full of hitscanners. What save the wad is the environnements/maps were supposed te be quite realist, credible, full of really well done doom-cute. They failed or could'nt do it correctly due to the technology of the time, but it was interesting to see. I love the DOOM 64's levels, they are all quite good, even those who have annoying parts like the level 15 with the big revenant-turret (quite contracictory with what i've said beforce, but annoyances are not equals) ! A few traps are annoying in DOOM 64, but the levels, the atmospheres, the ambiance, the layout and level-design, everything is good.
Unholy Cathedral is definitely on par with Limbo in terms of how confusing it is. Sandy blamed Tom Hall for the teleporter puzzles, but to his credit he at least took responsibility for not removing them.
First you complain about Slough of Despair being too tight and saying there should be more open spaces. And then complain about Metal that does just that. Just sayin
Very unpopular opinion; I borderline hate Doom 2. The levels are convoluted and obnoxious. To add to that, Shores of Hell and Inferno are also pretty mid to downright bad. Knee Deep in the Dead is a masterpiece through and through.
It's a more popular opinion with each passing day. A lot of modern mapsets go with styles that I would call "overly polished", "overly difficult" or sometimes both, and I respect the craft, but it just doesn't remind me of the Doom that I love. For people whose first custom mapset was something much more modern in terms of design, I guess there's less to be nostalgic for.. but I just love that scrappy, almost underdeveloped vibe of old Doom or old/old style WADs!
@DoomKid I remember searching "doom wads" on AOL 2.0 and being amazed at how many mods there were. Seemed like those days were the wild West. Everyone would put out anything and everything.
Knee Deep In The Dead being the best part of Doom is not really an unpopular opinion with how overrated Ep1 is. Unpopular opinion would be enjoying Ep2 and Ep3 of Doom 1.
@@DoomKid It feels like most modern WADs are based more on Plutonia than actually Doom 1 & Doom 2. Though, a reason Doom 1 isn't used much for wads nowadays is how limited map makers are by it. Alot of the Doom II enemies help make encounters and traps more interesting in custom wads.
Quite unpopular in my experience. My first version of Doom was actually Doom 2 on the Xbox 360, and having played all classic Doom titles now, I can say it's my favorite. I felt like the level design was much more deliberate and thought out in Doom 2, probably because they had the experience of working on the first Doom under their belt. Mix that with the new demons and the super shotgun, and I find it hard to not love. To each their own!
@DoomKid it was a subjective quip I was making. I personally like every level in both games, some more so than the others but both are among the best games ever made imo (Doom is my favorite game of all time). I'm not invalidating others views, just stating my own. Btw, you're awesome!
I think limbo was a useful choice where you need more than just your guns to survive. Reminds me a bit of the half life conveyor belt puzzle afte Le you are stripped of your weapons. Of the teleporters weren’t there and it had an extra 50 monsters I think the level wouldn’t be memorable. Maybe for some there are enough rad suits and you forgot where you have been and which people need to go into later
I've actually really warmed up to Limbo. I especially find the tunnel section fascinating, because they haven't really done something like this since. Sure, there's always sewers or a secret maze, but usually optional. I think the teleporters could have been better telegraphed and the large hall in the middle doesn't really get used, but it's good overall. Not great, just good. Downtown is admittedly not a great or even good map at all, but like I said in my video about the city levels, it does get the "feel" of cities across. It's massive, it's overwhelming, and it's confusing. I just wish it relied less on teleporters to get around, because that gets old QUICK. I actually don't like teleporters in Doom whatsoever, because I prefer physically exploring a space myself.
Yeah, with Plutonia, there are so many levels where the solutions just seems to be headbutting the wall until something works out and/or slogging through a ton of cheap fights
TNT Central Processing is definitely an acquired taste and not one I'd play often, but I love the sheer breath-taking length of it, plus the vast chasm area late in the map has an great scale, with the hard-to-shoot high-up chaingunners adding to the oppressive feel of it. The change of scenes as it progresses really makes it feel like you've been on an epic journey. Habitat is really terrible imo though and should not be relegated to an honourable mention. I play Doom maps to complete them, not to skip, therefore if their only redeeming feature is that you can exit them quickly, then I see that not as an advantage but a failure. Habitat is uber repetitive and dull plus it has that utterly stupid and amateurish false wall with the key behind it. Not a false wall with some demon iconography as though there's some Hellish reality-warping magic at work but just that the author didn't know what they were thinking when making the map. Crud.
As soon as I saw the name of this video, I knew Downtown was going to be number 1. Doom 2 was my first Doom game and I've been playing it for 20+ years and I *STILL* cannot remember how to beat it.
Weirdly enough, I don't think I ever disliked Limbo. I always felt that it had an appropriately tense and oppressive vibe. I recently did a spontaneous episode 3 run after wrapping up my Mass Effect stream and still think it's fine. I tend to be critical of damaging floor usage, but I always felt that there were generally enough rad suits to get through it, and the blood doesn't do enough damage to hamper exploration all that much (though it certainly punishes *reckless* exploration). I think its biggest sin is being the penultimate level in a big bad shooter and having very little action to speak of (especially when you consider how much action there is in the rest of episode 3!). As for Hell Keep, I can't help but wonder if that map would have been more tolerable if Sandy gave the player a chaingun instead of a shotgun.
If we're talkin' true classics, I submit E1M6 "Central Processing." Until you play it enough that you can complete it blindfolded, that lame nukage "maze" is a pain in the rear!
"Go right and keep going right until you hit the switch, then backtrack following the same wall you were hugging to find the key, then leave" isn't exactly rocket science.
the E1M6 slime maze isn't that bad, it's not even a maze. There aren't really any dead ends, it just loops back into itself and each room is connected. Just clear out the monsters and you can see where to go by simply going where you haven't to the passage at the west side. It's even simpler with the automap.
I've said it before, TNT has a ton of good ideas but feels rushed out incomplete. I hate playing through half of it, but always do because there's something about the designs and layouts I love.
@eightcoins4401 I might have used to harsh of language to describe it, but I do love TNT while hating it.... it's complicated. Love the look. I hate the way it plays. It's complicated. Lol It has that 90s feel that it is so hard to get. Even Ploutina doesn't have that feeling.
Me and my brother have a coop doom channel (siriuscoop) where we recently just are playing through Doom 1, and we realized just how many BAD levels there are in the middle of episode 2 and 3. Some seriously bad, dreary designed hallways and strange rooms type of stuff, specifically mostly done by Tom Hall. Petersen had a few bad ones too though. E2M4, 5, 6, 7 and E3M4, 5 and 7 are to me about as bad and weird as Doom 1 has to offer. I mean when you compare it to episode 1's very well designed, iconic maps, or episode 4's fresh and interesting style of maps, or even episode 3's good/unique looking maps like Mt Erebus and Slough of Despair (I personally like it visually), the ones I mentioned above are just awful visually and often maze-like and confusing. Not fun in general. I think my two most hated were Limbo and Unholy Cathderal. In my memory from childhood I liked Unholy Cathedral. But replaying it now in my older years, the teleporting mess and outer ring hallways of the map are just an absolute mess. A masterclass in how NOT to design a map. Limbo does the same thing with all the teleports, just watch our recent video playing it and how we get stuck due to the mess that map's teleporting puzzlery is. Ugh. The nightmare there is the map design, not the enemies or Hell. Anyway good video! I enjoyed the list.
Jimmy's Hyperdrive! I know it has its fans but I am seriously not a fan of Doom 1 E2M7. Its that mix of linear and non-linear that just makes the level frustrating unless you handle it one specific way. You can visit almost every area before grabbing keys, but you can only advance by going into the open-air area and then getting keys in a specific order. The open-air area is also, unlike the rest of the areas, only accessible in one way and from start, so unless you go there first you aren't solving the level. (you can tell that I didn't go there on my first playthrough X) A lot of overlong TNT maps are a pain for me, but I really dislike MAP18: Mill. Its got the worst of TNT's brand of techbase _and_ TNT's brand of Big Level. The only thing that stands out is the asphalt (?) arena at the end that is memorable for just how unpleasant it looks; exit area though is pretty. And, I know that many would like to pretend Master Levels aren't part of the equation, but they are! A lot of them aren't good but most of them are as bad as most bads of TNT or Plutonia. I don't even dislike Titan Manor. But Klie's Subspace and Flynn's Trapped on Titan rub me all the wrong way, latter for how long-winded it is, and former for outright refusal to engage with Doom's logic. Again, not special for mid-'90s, but its certainly something that should've needed another go.
I honestly can't even tell which maps are my least favourite. Despite having hundreds of hours in Doom / Doom 2, nearly all of my time was spent playing custom maps / mods / wads. I only ever played the original map like twice
There are actually a lot of levels from the classic Doom IWADs that I don't really enjoy but these ones are my absolute least favorites and I just dread them every single time: Ultimate Doom: Deimos Lab (E2M4), Command Center (E2M5), Halls of the Damned (E2M6), Limbo (E3M7), Fear (E4M9) Doom II: Downtown (Map 13), Nirvana (Map 21), Barrels o' Fun (Map 23), Icon of Sin (Map 30) TNT Evilution: Prison (Map 07), Dead Zone (Map 15), Administration Center (Map 21), River Styx (Map 29)
On the flip side, what’s everyone’s favorite levels? I looooved Computer Station, it was the first reeeeeeally long level on a first playthrough, and I dug the PS1 custom soundtrack. Also loved Mt. Erebus. Again, PS1 soundtrack gold, coupled with the flames on the horizon…. *chefs kiss*
@@DoomKid yeahhhh I always remember Deimos Lab for that cave of pinkies in the toxic slime guarding the supercharge🤣 Like…. Oh. Shit. Guess I have to earn it🤷🏻♂️ And I never played Gotcha cuz I only really played the PS1 version. Have the 32X and SNES versions but those are more of a novelty lmfao
E2M6 Halls Of The Damned and E2M4 Deimos Lab feel like the only levels to get the atmosphere down in Doom 1 when it comes to "hell is here and you're fucked". Even on DOS with the FM ost. Ironically I feel E2M4 works better with the DOS than PSX ost. Doom II it would be Underhalls, Gotcha, The Abandoned Mines. TNT it would be Human BBQ, Pharaoh, Caribbean and Heck Plutonia its Congo, Onslaught and Odysee of Noises
I'll join you with living E1M7. I love much of E1 of course, but I've learned to appreciate many of the levels from the rest of Doom, Doom2 and final doom also.
Doom: Fortress of Mystery (E1M9 is a bit interesting at least, E3M9 is my favorite level, E4M9 is on par with E1M9, but E2M9 is just the lamest secret level) Doom 2: The Focus, because that's as lame as Doom gets, nonsensical walking on a crate to lower a lift instead of flipping a switch that's next to it TNT: Mostly all of it, because it's boring, but Administration Centre is always the one that makes me go "guhhh, this again..." Plutonia: The Omen, coming off a ballbusting secret level, you get this, which is the most infuriating one, not many fond memories of this one.
One of the levels I dislike in Doom 2 is The Chasm, and one level I dislike in The Ultimate Doom is E2M6 Halls of the Damned, not necessarily a bad level, but because I could never beat it from a pistol start on NIGHTMARE! It's the only level in episode 2 that I couldn't beat from a pistol start. I once ran out of ammo despite playing on NIGHTMARE! Needless to say, I died on that attempt. For some reason, I can't seem to remember how to navigate that level on NIGHTMARE! probably because I'm playing fast and reacting to enemies very quickly. The Chasm, it would be a good level if it wasn't an act like tight rope walking. I got decent at that level over time on the narrow ledges, but it's still bad regardless. Also, Metal in TNT Evilution is crap, and has a mandatory secret that you likely won't even accidentally trigger the wall to open for it, than goodness for the youtube videos that show it off, and you can't even exit it quickly like Wormhole, oh no, you got to suffer for a while before you can exit. Anyway, awesome video!
I'm not sure how much of an unpopular opinion this is, but I think I'd put a lot of Thy Flesh Consumed over any bad level from The Shores of Hell or Inferno. I don't think there's any bigger vibe killer in Classic Doom for me than the first two maps in Thy Flesh Consumed. I usually just skip Thy Flesh Consumed because I just don't really have a lot of fun with it, honestly. Anyway, I respect and even agree with some of your picks. TNT has some real stinkers in them and Metal & Admin Center are certainly some of the worse, although I'd probably swap Habitat & Metal. Both are slogs, though. TNT is probably my least favorite Doom expansion (not including Master Levels) because a lot of the levels are just uninteresting to me, but I can see why you'd prefer TNT to Plutonia. I'd probably have real strong opinions on Wormhole if you couldn't just ignore that map completely and beat it in like 15 seconds I don't really have any stand out thoughts on Hell Keep or Limbo, although I know I don't enjoy those maps much, especially feeling extremely confused playing Limbo for the first time years ago and being lost. I'd probably put Fortress of Mystery on this list personally, but I get why you'd put those two maps on this list. I think my big issue with Doom 1 more is less about the bad levels in that game and more of how repetition really makes that game drag at the end. Doom 2 may have some weird level design, but I'd rather take some weird and occasionally bad levels but having some real fun and occasionally brutal combat. Downtown as #1 makes complete sense, and I totally get it, although that map does not infuriate me as much as other Doom 2 maps, but with The Chasm and Downtown I have the "optimal" route to getting to the exit down to a tee, although it should probably say something if I only play those levels as if I was doing a UV-Speed run. I probably hate The Catacombs more than any level, at least going off of my last few Doom 2 playthroughs I think I disagree completely with The Twilight being the worst Plutonia map. The Twilight is absolutely brutal, sure, and it's probably more frustrating than fun, but I personally think Bunker is the weakest map in Plutonia because it's really uninteresting and kinda boring. Plutonia's last few maps tend to lighten up a bit and that's usually where I start to kinda fall off with Plutonia a little bit. Still probably my 2nd favorite iwad, but Bunker is pretty much when I start to check out. Great vid, btw. Keep it up, man.
Metal was usually when i stopped playing TNT. It was such a mood killer. I only finished it when the remaster came. And i was surprised that some levels in TNT are actually fun. Except for administration center. That is another awful level As for downtown... I neither love it or hate it. But the big arrow in the level does indeed show its flaws. I do like the idea. It's a city level that feels like a city. I actually hate Industrial Zone and Suburbs. Oh yeah and most of the hell levels in Doom 2 (if not all of them) aren't fun to me. I really have to force myself to beat them. Also shout-out to The Pit. While not being so bad, it is in my opinion the weakest out of the first "episode" of Doom 2 As for Doom 1 levels... 2 words: Unholy Cathedral. It is as bad as Limbo. Or maybe worse since i don't hate Limbo as much
I agree in most of them. Great video!. I particurally dislike Downtown and Citadel of Doom 2 (pretty boring, repetetive and unclear). Administration Center, althought i respect Drake o' Brien and i am working in a tribute wad for him, that map frustrates me. Love TNT and Plutonia but if have to choose one level i dislike of Plutonia is MAP15:Twilight Zone. Really creative but a lot of secrets in a freakin' stair and a compressed combat into a jail-builded map with that midbars, are a combination i don't like.
@@CoralCopperHead Plutonia is objectively better designed than TNT. The maps are really polished for 1996. A huge chunk of TNT has bloated levels big stretches devoid of enemies. Often combined with tedious backtracking. Plutonia - as difficult as it might be - atleast doesn't waste your time like that. Though difficulty wise its kinda a joke compared to more modern "hard" wads.
I don't even think I'd be able to make a list like this, because if I put Ultimate Doom, Plutonia, TNT and Doom 2 together, I'd probably have 50+ levels that I think are terrible. I recently replayed them all in ultra violence + pistol start for the Steam achievements and honestly, I hope it's the last time in my life I review these levels, lol.
Most DOOM 64 levels are quite good, compared to the other classic DOOM. The bad levels are quite a few in this game. DOOM 2 and Final DOOM were full of bad levels, Ultimate DOOM was better.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I absolutely hate Containment Area in Ultimate Doom. After a slate of absolutely awesome levels, Containment Area follows Diemos Anomaly and it’s like what the hell is this shit with boxes everywhere? Climb over a set of boxes only to be ambushed by some Imps guarding a single health bonus and 4 shotgun shells? Kiss my ass. At least Toxin Refinery and Diemos Lab got the game back on track in an awesome way but Containment Area was such a buzzkill for me!
Containment area confused me, scared me and creeped me out in such a memorable way as a kid. The eerie music coupled with the confusing layout seemed like a perfect match, and the way ammo was hidden kept me in suspense after most maps just heap on the shells!
Containement area have a TNT vibe, i don't know why. Maybe the stupid stack of boxes at the start of the map, the ROOM on the left, and so on. Could have been good if really worked out, but it didn't happened, as for TNT.
returning to classic doom this year (around the time of doom + doom ii's release), i found newfound appreciation for some of tnt's spacier, often uglier maps (like metal). it clued me in to the imagination some of the map designers had even if it would take several decades to get to the visuals and more-disciplined design choices other expansions and wads have with their maps. (definitely doesn't excuse them though, although my tolerance seems higher than yours)
I feel like alot of TNT levels wouldn't be considered such travesties if it wasn't bundled with Plutonia. Plutonia had really solid map design for the time (mostly).
My most disliked classic doom levels are all contained in a single episode: Thy Flesh Consumed. I found a 1.9 WAD without it and now it's the perfect game! 😂
I dunno. I think it's not very fair to the level sets to lump _Doom,_ Thy Flesh Consumed, Doom II, and both _Final Doom_ episodes in one video. Were it me, I would have made videos for each core set of levels. (I think Thy Flesh Consume is different enough to have its own Bottom 3 video, at least.)
Limbo sux ass. I didnt love Cathedral either but rather play that 100x than Limbo again. Edit: also ill probably get flamed for this but i don't hate Slough of Despair. Not like my fave map or anything but cant say i hate it.
You get cruzified if you point it out, since it was designed by John Romero who clearly can do no wrong when it comes to map design. Sometimes I wonder if all of the blame put on Sandy Peterson only was astroturfed to distract the world from the heaps of shit designed by Romero.
For some reason I love central processing from TNT. I was in awe of how crazy it started to get while that music was all epic and shit... It's kinda ugly by modern standards but when I played TNT as a kid it was such an adventure.
I agree, I think it's an epic. I love how vast the canyon area is towards the end, and the length and number of changes of scenery makes you feel like you've been on such a journey. The music which is brooding and subtle is very well suited to the epic and oppressive scale of it. Maybe I wouldn't play it that often, but it earns a place in my mind for being cool
Yeah that entire level was an epic journey but I can see how people wouldn’t like it. I actually agree with all the other stuff in the video. But unholy cathedral is missing
@@illyay1337 That's a tricky one for me. i can see why you and some might dislike unholy cathedral, but for me it's one of the best maps in E3. The teleporters are/were a bit obtuse and some of the side areas are pretty ugly, but the big central area (and the opening area) are aesthetically and stylistically fantastic - much more appropriate to hell than the weird half-tech mish-mashes of E3M3 and E3M4. I think once you've gotten a bit more experienced at doom your appreciation can grow as the teleporters bother you less and you get at better learning to navigate, or just remember the level progression, but I always thought it looked great from the start
@@ThePurplePassage well the central area is pretty interesting. From an artistic and level design standpoint the entire area outside the center all looks the same so it’s hard to tell where you are when you go through the teleporters. I think it’s possible to “fix” the level by changing the theme of the 4 quadrants of the map to have different texturing so you know where you are more easily without being lost in a teleporter maze. It’s not even so much that I get lost in the level. It just feels visually bland and completely uniform throughout. But yeah the center area was pretty cool and is a standout. And there were a few other areas that were standouts.
Hell Beneath? I'm pretty sure it was made as insanely hard as it was as a "How you like them apples?" to people who said the original release was too easy.
@@IamRobotMonkey The problem is not it's hard, it's the shortage of ammo.It's hard to fight monster on a crampled map, sure, but if you don't distribue enough ammo, it's an annoyance.
Man, e4m1 and 2 are such ass kicker levels that don't care what the player thinks.. before that style was cool (or dare I say, overdone).. I loved those maps for their unapologetic nature, they lived up to the hype of E4 back in the 90s more than the rest of E4, imo
What you seem to miss in your judgment is that a level like Downtown was not necessarily made to be fun. It was made to impress. I know it may be hard to imagine for some of you young whippersnappers, but my jaw dropped to the floor playing that level for the the first time. It was a glimpse into the future, and the crap puzzle design was easily outweighed by the sheer awesomeness of playing something that actually felt like a "real" city.
inb4 The Chasm being the worst but I just got here so that's my bet currently...Oh (Dis)Honorable Mention instead...fair enough since your adding Final Doom's TNT and Plutonia into the mix though i can understand why Downtown is disliked but I think Limbo is still worse unless memorized already its way too convoluted (also remember the difference between dislike and hate, people! "Hate" is a very overused and weaponized word these days)
Excellent shout on Downtown. As soon as I get to this map my enthusiasm dies a swift death 😂
E3M1 is a testament to Petersen's fascination with monster infighting. It's deliberately designed to force you to save ammo and let monsters attack each other. The issue is, either shooting all of the monsters with a pistol or be dependent on the monsters random behavior aren't fun.
@aruan7sp Correct. And also if you aren't as committed to monster infighting as Petersen, he provides you the alternative option: lure the Cacodemons out, run past them, grab the shottie from the collapsing bridge, then come back and fight them with more firepower. Plus, returning to the level (with a twist!) for E3M9 is devilish. Much more going on than people often credit it for.
E2M2 nudges you into berserk fisting enemies instead of shooting them. There is low ammo, the introduction of the berserk pack, and no hitscanners. You're supposed to Mike Tyson your way through the level.
@@lancebaylis3169 and that's why I love e3m1
Downtown isn't actually that bad once you learn how to beat it. My strategy is pressing the "I" key on my keyboard, followed by "d, c, l, e, v, 1 and 4". That gets rid of the headache pretty quick xD
Unholy Cathedral, for its over reliance on using teleporters for progress and for having a major secret hidden behind an arbitrary wall
Most of the complaints you have seem to stem from impatience and wanting to blaze through a map at high speed. If that's your play style, then those are valid complaints, however if you're patient and methodical, you can have a very different experience. For example, E3M1 to me is a thinking-person's level. It's scarce on ammo, and the cacos at the beginning are deliberately there to stop you from just blazing through Rambo-style. The fact that you can CLOSE the door (and the cacos cannot open it) is also a key. First, don't kill the imps. Open the door, let one caco out, close it. Let the caco get hit by an imp fireball so it infights, then run up behind the caco and start punching. Repeat with the second caco. Finish with your pistol if needed. The shotgun bridge is an obvious trap to force you to run into the invisible wall where the imps are hiding, or panic and drop into the hot red stuff. When you reach the second room with a caco and a bunch of imps, get them to infight again, and they'll do most of the work for you. The pinky hallway is also easy. Just punch them, and tap forward and backward to time their bites to avoid taking damage and they'll pretty much stay in place and die one by one. By the time you reach the end you have plenty of shotgun ammo to polish off the imps and still have ammo left for the next map.
He said he prefers TNT to Plutonia so clearly it's just a skill issue
You beat me to it, I was going to comment that he made E3M1 harder than it needed to be by not instigating any infighting.
@@ShowToddSomeLove I’ve beaten Plutonia on UV-max and I still prefer tnt over it. Its not a skill issue, but an aesthetic and fun issue. Everyone has their preferences.
I prefer TNT. TNT is uneven but there's at least a feeling of progression and a journey. Every map in plutonia looks and plays the exact same. (Except hunted I guess) It used to be a novelty mapset for its difficulty but it's been far outpaced in the years since.
@@mja2317 Most of Plutonia seems to be just "headbutt wall until something works" and/or "fight a slog of monsters, often involving very lazy ambushes"
GermanPeter has been summoned
GermanPeter has been awoken!
/summonfriend GermanPeter
I think what would help Limbo is the idea that when entering the different red key teleporters, each room would have a switch that would raise a safe path that would allow you to return as needed when getting the order right. It would add a much needed sense of progression, possible bread crumbing and way of coordinating when you have been AND allow safe traversal to solve the order of needed.
In saying that id be interested in seeing a revised map pck release that contains some of the more controversial levels of classic doom, but with mappers putting their own spin in ‘salvaging’ or saving what could work about said maps. Would interesting seeing a somewhat new spin on older maps but with solutions that mappers can devise
Central Processing is like the prototype of a hundred current era user wads. Vast, epic in scale, some incredible terrain and architecture, there had been nothing like it in a commercial Doom wad at that point. But it's got some screwy ideas that tear it down. I remember as a kid hating both the exit switch that isn't a switch and isn't obvious what you need to do to exit, and also that puzzling choice to make progress through a break in the wire fence that you can barely see and would need to be looking at every inch of the fence in order to find. These two things aside, I don't hate it. :)
Doom 2 is as much a tech demo as a game. It is the developers throwing ideas out there and saying, "Here, we know that you can do some wild stuff with this!"
And they were right.
To an extent Quake 1 was as well. Sandy and McGee went nuts with some of those levels.
I HATE E2M3, Refinery, with a burning passion.
It is such a vibe killer from the previous two maps, it gets to the point where literally every single time I've played through Doom (excluding the first time because I was unaware of the torment this map is), I had to take multiple day long breaks from playing the game to mentally prepare to digest such fecal matter. Because I'd rather do anything else than to go through that forsaken level.
I'd rather pistol start Plutonia on Nightmare than play that stupid map.
I hate the layout, I hate the enemy placement, I hate the stupid strobe room with the Imps and Lost Souls, I hate all of the poison floors, I hate the fact that you need to jump into a lava pit to get a plasma gun, I hate the secrets, I hate the confusing progression, I even hate the song that plays. It feels like the guys over at Id didn't want to think about this unholy abomination any more than they had to, so they just slapped a random song on it and called it a day, but they inadvertently chose the one song that sucks for long-form play, which will it end up being anyway because of the tedious secrets and that I try to forget this map exists, yet my unbridled rage for it manages to keep it lodged in my memory like air-dried silly putty in a bookbag.
The only good part of the map is that it gives you a berserk pack so I can nourish my brain with anything that isn't physically dealing with the layout, but E2M2 does the "here's a berserk, go punch the demons to death" premise infinitely better. But that's not saying much, because any increase from zero is an infinity.
If I die and go to Hell, my eternal punishment will be playing this map.
DOOM: Unholy Cathedral
Thy Flesh Consumed: Unruly Evil
DOOM II: The Inmost Dens
TNT: Baron's Den
PLUTONIA: Impossible Mission
DOOM 64: Hectic
To be fair, Hectic is basically a troll level that only existed in the original to unlock the cheat menu
Wormhole is just disappointing. It's a unique and fun gimmick for a level that's just implemented so poorly.
I think Map 05 of Going Down does Wormhole's gimmick a whole lot better, especially because you HAVE to interact with it to beat the level, instead of it being tucked away in a corner people could easily miss.
@@ReepEnTeer It is odd that the other half of Wormhole's map is completely optional. I would have missed it on my first playthrough of TnT if not for being thorough due to perplexion as to why I was missing so many monsters, items, and secrets. TnT has several levels where large chunks of the map are optional, some requiring keys that are optional to find too.
@@ReepEnTeer And things you do in one version of the map actually affect the other version- the pillar you need to use to get the yellow key, the soul sphere secret.
First level of episode 4 (Doom 1) because you have to play perfectly and not waste ammo. The chasm, because tight rope
Downtown also has a bug where an elevator gets stuck which prevents you from being able to access a key and soft-locks your game. You have to load a save (if you have one) from an earlier level and try again.
Yeah, apart from generally being an unenjoyable level, this elevator bug screwed me over, and I just stopped playing the game entirely. I was even playing the updated version on Xbox, so it's crazy to me that this bug hasn't just been fixed over the years.
Or just cheat out
@@caoistico669 can't cheat if you want achievements in the new re-release.
@@KingSvenDeluxe actually you can, i did it to not the trough thy flesh consumed, and i got the achievment, i just oppened the console and used the cheats there
E3M5: Unholy Cathedral and his stupid teleporter puzzle is in the top 5 for me. It's an big annoyance and i hate big annoyance more than boring levels. You can do a boring level in automatic pilot and without having a bad feeling. Some boring lvels are fine to play sometimes, they're generally quite chill. But annoyances, you hate them, i hate them, they ruin a level. I can bear with some small annoyance, like some traps (Plutonia, DOOM 64, Sandy Pettersen's maps in DOOM 2 are full of them), but big annoyances that make you lost in a level or block you for a long time, it's a big no !
E3M2: Slough of Despair is a mess, with small corridors where you can't really move, it's not the choice you should make for a DOOM game where your player is fast and can circle-strafe. It's more fitting to have a lots of space to move in a FAST-FPS ! Another annoyance. The chasm do that too, but in a way more bearable. It's not small corridors, but tiny ledges, and not in the hole map.
TNT 11 : Storage Facility is also a mess, it's a labyrinth, a bad one. And i hate badly done labyrinths. Habitat is a big labyrinth, too, and i hate it.
TNT : Metal is awfull, don't make huge rooms just to put a few hitscanners rendering the huge space useless. I hate dying too much without being able to do anything.
I understand why Limbo and The factory are in the list, but for people who love to explore big maps, they are bearable. Not good, bearable, not more. Hell keep is fine for a first map, it's not a complex map, it just lack amunitions, could be worse.And you can save ammo with the punch, in the pinky corridor. Could be better, but not horrible.
As you may see, i hate space badly use in DOOM. TNT evilution is often culprit for that, because of the big maps full of hitscanners. What save the wad is the environnements/maps were supposed te be quite realist, credible, full of really well done doom-cute. They failed or could'nt do it correctly due to the technology of the time, but it was interesting to see. I love the DOOM 64's levels, they are all quite good, even those who have annoying parts like the level 15 with the big revenant-turret (quite contracictory with what i've said beforce, but annoyances are not equals) ! A few traps are annoying in DOOM 64, but the levels, the atmospheres, the ambiance, the layout and level-design, everything is good.
Unholy Cathedral is definitely on par with Limbo in terms of how confusing it is. Sandy blamed Tom Hall for the teleporter puzzles, but to his credit he at least took responsibility for not removing them.
@@BSzili Limbo is imo way worse. On repeat playthroughs you can almost fully avoid the teleporters in E3M5.
First you complain about Slough of Despair being too tight and saying there should be more open spaces. And then complain about Metal that does just that.
Just sayin
@@hurykles99 The problem with the open space in metal is the presence of hitscanners that shoot you from very far, not the open space itself.
I like Habitat and Storage Facility for the reasons you dislike them.
The big problem with Limbo for me is how much of the floors are damaging.
Very unpopular opinion; I borderline hate Doom 2. The levels are convoluted and obnoxious. To add to that, Shores of Hell and Inferno are also pretty mid to downright bad. Knee Deep in the Dead is a masterpiece through and through.
It's a more popular opinion with each passing day. A lot of modern mapsets go with styles that I would call "overly polished", "overly difficult" or sometimes both, and I respect the craft, but it just doesn't remind me of the Doom that I love. For people whose first custom mapset was something much more modern in terms of design, I guess there's less to be nostalgic for.. but I just love that scrappy, almost underdeveloped vibe of old Doom or old/old style WADs!
@DoomKid I remember searching "doom wads" on AOL 2.0 and being amazed at how many mods there were. Seemed like those days were the wild West. Everyone would put out anything and everything.
Knee Deep In The Dead being the best part of Doom is not really an unpopular opinion with how overrated Ep1 is.
Unpopular opinion would be enjoying Ep2 and Ep3 of Doom 1.
@@DoomKid It feels like most modern WADs are based more on Plutonia than actually Doom 1 & Doom 2. Though, a reason Doom 1 isn't used much for wads nowadays is how limited map makers are by it. Alot of the Doom II enemies help make encounters and traps more interesting in custom wads.
Quite unpopular in my experience. My first version of Doom was actually Doom 2 on the Xbox 360, and having played all classic Doom titles now, I can say it's my favorite. I felt like the level design was much more deliberate and thought out in Doom 2, probably because they had the experience of working on the first Doom under their belt. Mix that with the new demons and the super shotgun, and I find it hard to not love. To each their own!
Fact: there are just as many "bad levels" in Super Mario Bros. as there is in Doom.
You mean the first SMB specifically?
@DoomKid it was a subjective quip I was making. I personally like every level in both games, some more so than the others but both are among the best games ever made imo (Doom is my favorite game of all time). I'm not invalidating others views, just stating my own. Btw, you're awesome!
I think limbo was a useful choice where you need more than just your guns to survive. Reminds me a bit of the half life conveyor belt puzzle afte Le you are stripped of your weapons. Of the teleporters weren’t there and it had an extra 50 monsters I think the level wouldn’t be memorable. Maybe for some there are enough rad suits and you forgot where you have been and which people need to go into later
I've actually really warmed up to Limbo. I especially find the tunnel section fascinating, because they haven't really done something like this since. Sure, there's always sewers or a secret maze, but usually optional. I think the teleporters could have been better telegraphed and the large hall in the middle doesn't really get used, but it's good overall. Not great, just good.
Downtown is admittedly not a great or even good map at all, but like I said in my video about the city levels, it does get the "feel" of cities across. It's massive, it's overwhelming, and it's confusing. I just wish it relied less on teleporters to get around, because that gets old QUICK. I actually don't like teleporters in Doom whatsoever, because I prefer physically exploring a space myself.
Doom: Unholy Cathedral.
Doom2: The Chasm.
TNT: Metal.
Plutonia: all of it.
Never understood why Unruly Evil never gets named as the worst from Doom I. It's just short and pointless.
Yeah, with Plutonia, there are so many levels where the solutions just seems to be headbutting the wall until something works out and/or slogging through a ton of cheap fights
"Plutonia; all of it"
Go back to ripping and tearing, kid. You're not wanted
@@eigeneagle9163 and even this short they managed to give the cacodemons a too narrow closet so that they're stuck there at exit area xD
"Plutonia: all of it."
I smell skill issue.
TNT Central Processing is definitely an acquired taste and not one I'd play often, but I love the sheer breath-taking length of it, plus the vast chasm area late in the map has an great scale, with the hard-to-shoot high-up chaingunners adding to the oppressive feel of it. The change of scenes as it progresses really makes it feel like you've been on an epic journey.
Habitat is really terrible imo though and should not be relegated to an honourable mention. I play Doom maps to complete them, not to skip, therefore if their only redeeming feature is that you can exit them quickly, then I see that not as an advantage but a failure. Habitat is uber repetitive and dull plus it has that utterly stupid and amateurish false wall with the key behind it. Not a false wall with some demon iconography as though there's some Hellish reality-warping magic at work but just that the author didn't know what they were thinking when making the map. Crud.
As soon as I saw the name of this video, I knew Downtown was going to be number 1. Doom 2 was my first Doom game and I've been playing it for 20+ years and I *STILL* cannot remember how to beat it.
I don't actually have a problem with levels like limbo and downtown tbh
I don't mind Downtown as much as others. Still hate Limbo though. Especially dreadful in PSX doom.
Weirdly enough, I don't think I ever disliked Limbo. I always felt that it had an appropriately tense and oppressive vibe. I recently did a spontaneous episode 3 run after wrapping up my Mass Effect stream and still think it's fine. I tend to be critical of damaging floor usage, but I always felt that there were generally enough rad suits to get through it, and the blood doesn't do enough damage to hamper exploration all that much (though it certainly punishes *reckless* exploration).
I think its biggest sin is being the penultimate level in a big bad shooter and having very little action to speak of (especially when you consider how much action there is in the rest of episode 3!).
As for Hell Keep, I can't help but wonder if that map would have been more tolerable if Sandy gave the player a chaingun instead of a shotgun.
If we're talkin' true classics, I submit E1M6 "Central Processing."
Until you play it enough that you can complete it blindfolded, that lame nukage "maze" is a pain in the rear!
"Go right and keep going right until you hit the switch, then backtrack following the same wall you were hugging to find the key, then leave" isn't exactly rocket science.
@CoralCopperHead You could write strategy guides! Thanks man :)
I usually just skip the entire maze with the secret that leads directly to the room with the key in it.
@OnionTaco22 Exactly
the E1M6 slime maze isn't that bad, it's not even a maze. There aren't really any dead ends, it just loops back into itself and each room is connected. Just clear out the monsters and you can see where to go by simply going where you haven't to the passage at the west side. It's even simpler with the automap.
I've said it before, TNT has a ton of good ideas but feels rushed out incomplete.
I hate playing through half of it, but always do because there's something about the designs and layouts I love.
Theres alot of modern remake/tribute wads without the problems the og has.
@eightcoins4401 I might have used to harsh of language to describe it, but I do love TNT while hating it.... it's complicated. Love the look. I hate the way it plays. It's complicated. Lol
It has that 90s feel that it is so hard to get. Even Ploutina doesn't have that feeling.
Me and my brother have a coop doom channel (siriuscoop) where we recently just are playing through Doom 1, and we realized just how many BAD levels there are in the middle of episode 2 and 3. Some seriously bad, dreary designed hallways and strange rooms type of stuff, specifically mostly done by Tom Hall. Petersen had a few bad ones too though. E2M4, 5, 6, 7 and E3M4, 5 and 7 are to me about as bad and weird as Doom 1 has to offer. I mean when you compare it to episode 1's very well designed, iconic maps, or episode 4's fresh and interesting style of maps, or even episode 3's good/unique looking maps like Mt Erebus and Slough of Despair (I personally like it visually), the ones I mentioned above are just awful visually and often maze-like and confusing. Not fun in general. I think my two most hated were Limbo and Unholy Cathderal. In my memory from childhood I liked Unholy Cathedral. But replaying it now in my older years, the teleporting mess and outer ring hallways of the map are just an absolute mess. A masterclass in how NOT to design a map. Limbo does the same thing with all the teleports, just watch our recent video playing it and how we get stuck due to the mess that map's teleporting puzzlery is. Ugh. The nightmare there is the map design, not the enemies or Hell.
Anyway good video! I enjoyed the list.
For Hell Keep, I inevitably end up punching out all the pinkys. It is a slog.
Not everything is made for people to “vibe with.” The maps are made how they’re made. Acceptance is key
Jimmy's Hyperdrive!
I know it has its fans but I am seriously not a fan of Doom 1 E2M7. Its that mix of linear and non-linear that just makes the level frustrating unless you handle it one specific way. You can visit almost every area before grabbing keys, but you can only advance by going into the open-air area and then getting keys in a specific order. The open-air area is also, unlike the rest of the areas, only accessible in one way and from start, so unless you go there first you aren't solving the level. (you can tell that I didn't go there on my first playthrough X)
A lot of overlong TNT maps are a pain for me, but I really dislike MAP18: Mill. Its got the worst of TNT's brand of techbase _and_ TNT's brand of Big Level. The only thing that stands out is the asphalt (?) arena at the end that is memorable for just how unpleasant it looks; exit area though is pretty.
And, I know that many would like to pretend Master Levels aren't part of the equation, but they are! A lot of them aren't good but most of them are as bad as most bads of TNT or Plutonia. I don't even dislike Titan Manor. But Klie's Subspace and Flynn's Trapped on Titan rub me all the wrong way, latter for how long-winded it is, and former for outright refusal to engage with Doom's logic. Again, not special for mid-'90s, but its certainly something that should've needed another go.
Interesting, we seem to think about Doom in opposite ways. Your favourite levels should be my least favourite ones.
I don't know why, but I've never Doom 1's E2M2, for some reason.
Oh and by the way I think I got stuck in TNT Map 17 on the blue key platform.
I honestly can't even tell which maps are my least favourite. Despite having hundreds of hours in Doom / Doom 2, nearly all of my time was spent playing custom maps / mods / wads.
I only ever played the original map like twice
There are actually a lot of levels from the classic Doom IWADs that I don't really enjoy but these ones are my absolute least favorites and I just dread them every single time:
Ultimate Doom: Deimos Lab (E2M4), Command Center (E2M5), Halls of the Damned (E2M6), Limbo (E3M7), Fear (E4M9)
Doom II: Downtown (Map 13), Nirvana (Map 21), Barrels o' Fun (Map 23), Icon of Sin (Map 30)
TNT Evilution: Prison (Map 07), Dead Zone (Map 15), Administration Center (Map 21), River Styx (Map 29)
I definitely recommend BigMacDavis' walkthrough for Limbo before playing it
Is there an original Doom map wad for the Doom 2 engine?
I'm pretty sure it owuld exist
@@eightcoins4401 I just haven't been able to find it yet. I don't have the chops to make it myself.
On the flip side, what’s everyone’s favorite levels?
I looooved Computer Station, it was the first reeeeeeally long level on a first playthrough, and I dug the PS1 custom soundtrack.
Also loved Mt. Erebus. Again, PS1 soundtrack gold, coupled with the flames on the horizon…. *chefs kiss*
E2m4- Deimos Lab, and Map 20- Gotcha! are both so memorable.. one for being eerie, the other primarily for the awesome spider VS cyb fight.
@@DoomKid yeahhhh I always remember Deimos Lab for that cave of pinkies in the toxic slime guarding the supercharge🤣
Like…. Oh. Shit. Guess I have to earn it🤷🏻♂️
And I never played Gotcha cuz I only really played the PS1 version.
Have the 32X and SNES versions but those are more of a novelty lmfao
E2M6 Halls Of The Damned and E2M4 Deimos Lab feel like the only levels to get the atmosphere down in Doom 1 when it comes to "hell is here and you're fucked". Even on DOS with the FM ost. Ironically I feel E2M4 works better with the DOS than PSX ost.
Doom II it would be Underhalls, Gotcha, The Abandoned Mines.
TNT it would be Human BBQ, Pharaoh, Caribbean and Heck
Plutonia its Congo, Onslaught and Odysee of Noises
Doom 2. Map 10. Refueling Base
I'll join you with living E1M7. I love much of E1 of course, but I've learned to appreciate many of the levels from the rest of Doom, Doom2 and final doom also.
Those are more bearable if you’re playing with Brutal Doom enabled.
In hell keep you must let the cacos infight with the 3 imps at the start. Same for the next caco encounter. Then you have enough ammo
I'm surprised Perfect Hatred and Against Thee Wickedly aren't on here. These two levels are the absolute worst levels in Classic Doom for me.
Wow. Your least favorite level is one of my very favorites. But even the worst levels in Doom are better than most FPS’s.
plutonia's twilight level is a real nightmare with fast monsters. an absolute perfect hatred for that one
Doom: Fortress of Mystery (E1M9 is a bit interesting at least, E3M9 is my favorite level, E4M9 is on par with E1M9, but E2M9 is just the lamest secret level)
Doom 2: The Focus, because that's as lame as Doom gets, nonsensical walking on a crate to lower a lift instead of flipping a switch that's next to it
TNT: Mostly all of it, because it's boring, but Administration Centre is always the one that makes me go "guhhh, this again..."
Plutonia: The Omen, coming off a ballbusting secret level, you get this, which is the most infuriating one, not many fond memories of this one.
One of the levels I dislike in Doom 2 is The Chasm, and one level I dislike in The Ultimate Doom is E2M6 Halls of the Damned, not necessarily a bad level, but because I could never beat it from a pistol start on NIGHTMARE! It's the only level in episode 2 that I couldn't beat from a pistol start. I once ran out of ammo despite playing on NIGHTMARE! Needless to say, I died on that attempt. For some reason, I can't seem to remember how to navigate that level on NIGHTMARE! probably because I'm playing fast and reacting to enemies very quickly.
The Chasm, it would be a good level if it wasn't an act like tight rope walking. I got decent at that level over time on the narrow ledges, but it's still bad regardless.
Also, Metal in TNT Evilution is crap, and has a mandatory secret that you likely won't even accidentally trigger the wall to open for it, than goodness for the youtube videos that show it off, and you can't even exit it quickly like Wormhole, oh no, you got to suffer for a while before you can exit.
Anyway, awesome video!
Downtown is the level that made me give up on Doom 2.
I'm not sure how much of an unpopular opinion this is, but I think I'd put a lot of Thy Flesh Consumed over any bad level from The Shores of Hell or Inferno. I don't think there's any bigger vibe killer in Classic Doom for me than the first two maps in Thy Flesh Consumed. I usually just skip Thy Flesh Consumed because I just don't really have a lot of fun with it, honestly.
Anyway, I respect and even agree with some of your picks. TNT has some real stinkers in them and Metal & Admin Center are certainly some of the worse, although I'd probably swap Habitat & Metal. Both are slogs, though. TNT is probably my least favorite Doom expansion (not including Master Levels) because a lot of the levels are just uninteresting to me, but I can see why you'd prefer TNT to Plutonia. I'd probably have real strong opinions on Wormhole if you couldn't just ignore that map completely and beat it in like 15 seconds
I don't really have any stand out thoughts on Hell Keep or Limbo, although I know I don't enjoy those maps much, especially feeling extremely confused playing Limbo for the first time years ago and being lost. I'd probably put Fortress of Mystery on this list personally, but I get why you'd put those two maps on this list. I think my big issue with Doom 1 more is less about the bad levels in that game and more of how repetition really makes that game drag at the end. Doom 2 may have some weird level design, but I'd rather take some weird and occasionally bad levels but having some real fun and occasionally brutal combat.
Downtown as #1 makes complete sense, and I totally get it, although that map does not infuriate me as much as other Doom 2 maps, but with The Chasm and Downtown I have the "optimal" route to getting to the exit down to a tee, although it should probably say something if I only play those levels as if I was doing a UV-Speed run. I probably hate The Catacombs more than any level, at least going off of my last few Doom 2 playthroughs
I think I disagree completely with The Twilight being the worst Plutonia map. The Twilight is absolutely brutal, sure, and it's probably more frustrating than fun, but I personally think Bunker is the weakest map in Plutonia because it's really uninteresting and kinda boring. Plutonia's last few maps tend to lighten up a bit and that's usually where I start to kinda fall off with Plutonia a little bit. Still probably my 2nd favorite iwad, but Bunker is pretty much when I start to check out.
Great vid, btw. Keep it up, man.
Metal was usually when i stopped playing TNT. It was such a mood killer. I only finished it when the remaster came. And i was surprised that some levels in TNT are actually fun.
Except for administration center. That is another awful level
As for downtown... I neither love it or hate it. But the big arrow in the level does indeed show its flaws. I do like the idea. It's a city level that feels like a city.
I actually hate Industrial Zone and Suburbs. Oh yeah and most of the hell levels in Doom 2 (if not all of them) aren't fun to me. I really have to force myself to beat them.
Also shout-out to The Pit. While not being so bad, it is in my opinion the weakest out of the first "episode" of Doom 2
As for Doom 1 levels... 2 words: Unholy Cathedral. It is as bad as Limbo. Or maybe worse since i don't hate Limbo as much
Good video. I could never beat limbo on the snes as a kid, and thus could never finish the game! Used to rent it from blockbuster lol
I agree in most of them. Great video!. I particurally dislike Downtown and Citadel of Doom 2 (pretty boring, repetetive and unclear). Administration Center, althought i respect Drake o' Brien and i am working in a tribute wad for him, that map frustrates me. Love TNT and Plutonia but if have to choose one level i dislike of Plutonia is MAP15:Twilight Zone. Really creative but a lot of secrets in a freakin' stair and a compressed combat into a jail-builded map with that midbars, are a combination i don't like.
Limbo would have been cool if not for that teleport lava part and the little multi level cavernish area
no icon of sin?
This channel goes so hard btw mate
honestly, all my 5 picks would be from TNT. There are some fine levels in it, but most of it is just poorly designed
TNT Evilution… oh wait. You said levels, not an entire WAD.
You spelled Plutonia wrong.
@@CoralCopperHead Plutonia is objectively better designed than TNT. The maps are really polished for 1996.
A huge chunk of TNT has bloated levels big stretches devoid of enemies. Often combined with tedious backtracking.
Plutonia - as difficult as it might be - atleast doesn't waste your time like that. Though difficulty wise its kinda a joke compared to more modern "hard" wads.
I mean TNT has some stinkers. But it doesn't make the entire wad bad
Try Darkhell & Blakhell.
I don't even think I'd be able to make a list like this, because if I put Ultimate Doom, Plutonia, TNT and Doom 2 together, I'd probably have 50+ levels that I think are terrible. I recently replayed them all in ultra violence + pistol start for the Steam achievements and honestly, I hope it's the last time in my life I review these levels, lol.
Most DOOM 64 levels are quite good, compared to the other classic DOOM. The bad levels are quite a few in this game. DOOM 2 and Final DOOM were full of bad levels, Ultimate DOOM was better.
To be fair, atleast 16 would be just TNT alone....
@@guyg.8529 While theres no outright terrible levels, when I played through it alot of it felt samey since 2/3 of Doom64 are spent in hell.
I was just finishing up the re release of doom 2 earlier today and I’m always reminded by how much I hate icon of sin
Before watching, all of them are Sandy Petersen's map.
Edit: okay, I was close. Also, don't badmouth Plutonia ever again.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I absolutely hate Containment Area in Ultimate Doom.
After a slate of absolutely awesome levels, Containment Area follows Diemos Anomaly and it’s like what the hell is this shit with boxes everywhere? Climb over a set of boxes only to be ambushed by some Imps guarding a single health bonus and 4 shotgun shells? Kiss my ass.
At least Toxin Refinery and Diemos Lab got the game back on track in an awesome way but Containment Area was such a buzzkill for me!
Containment area is the map that makes me question whether I really want to keep playing. Halls of the Damned makes me sure I don't want to play.
@@BeersAndBeatsPDX hmm I didn’t mind Halls of the Damned, everything was cool for me up until Limbo, that was the next turd in the game for me lol
Containment area confused me, scared me and creeped me out in such a memorable way as a kid. The eerie music coupled with the confusing layout seemed like a perfect match, and the way ammo was hidden kept me in suspense after most maps just heap on the shells!
@@DoomKid I always loved Deimos lab. The music is so creepy and created such an atmosphere.
Containement area have a TNT vibe, i don't know why. Maybe the stupid stack of boxes at the start of the map, the ROOM on the left, and so on. Could have been good if really worked out, but it didn't happened, as for TNT.
returning to classic doom this year (around the time of doom + doom ii's release), i found newfound appreciation for some of tnt's spacier, often uglier maps (like metal). it clued me in to the imagination some of the map designers had even if it would take several decades to get to the visuals and more-disciplined design choices other expansions and wads have with their maps.
(definitely doesn't excuse them though, although my tolerance seems higher than yours)
I feel like alot of TNT levels wouldn't be considered such travesties if it wasn't bundled with Plutonia. Plutonia had really solid map design for the time (mostly).
My most disliked classic doom levels are all contained in a single episode: Thy Flesh Consumed. I found a 1.9 WAD without it and now it's the perfect game! 😂
Haven't they thought about adding at least a basic road texture to improve the "city" aspect? This still baffles me.
I know size maybe could be a limitation, but, c'mon... Isn't like they didn't knew that they were going to have city stages.
Doom 2 had an intentionally more abstract level design philosophy.
While most of Doom 1 was supposed to look like actual bases.
I think Doom II was more of a quick cash-grab for the team.
both downtown and hell's keep have a great ost
E1M1 is overrated as fuck...Slough of Despair has been the reason I stop playing Doom 2 for the millionth time before just out of boredom.
Limbo, really? You had trouble with Limbo of all maps?
Ive played Doom like 100 times. To this day I still can't memorize which teleporter goes where.
Doom 2 level 19 the citadel is one of my least favourite levels
E3M1 always felt like a really rushed map to me
Yeah, Limbo sucks. I didn't mind any other classic level except that one. Textbook example of turning fun into work.
Administration center reminds me of duke nukem 3d!
I dunno. I think it's not very fair to the level sets to lump _Doom,_ Thy Flesh Consumed, Doom II, and both _Final Doom_ episodes in one video. Were it me, I would have made videos for each core set of levels.
(I think Thy Flesh Consume is different enough to have its own Bottom 3 video, at least.)
Heh, I must be one of the only people who actually like Administration Centre. 😅
That level gives me a migraine lol
Anyone who makes fun of a subjective opinion....is that even worth expending any mental energy to worry about? You do you brotha
Limbo sux ass. I didnt love Cathedral either but rather play that 100x than Limbo again.
Edit: also ill probably get flamed for this but i don't hate Slough of Despair. Not like my fave map or anything but cant say i hate it.
E genuinely like e3m1 😅
industrial zone is a stinker too
You get cruzified if you point it out, since it was designed by John Romero who clearly can do no wrong when it comes to map design. Sometimes I wonder if all of the blame put on Sandy Peterson only was astroturfed to distract the world from the heaps of shit designed by Romero.
@ map11 was a neat level tbf
It's really difficult, but I love the simulated building demolition.
I love e3m1
ima go ahead and comment before watching. E4M2
One of the best.
There's way worse in the same episode.
Only thing I hate about that level is the secret exit
For some reason I love central processing from TNT. I was in awe of how crazy it started to get while that music was all epic and shit... It's kinda ugly by modern standards but when I played TNT as a kid it was such an adventure.
I agree, I think it's an epic. I love how vast the canyon area is towards the end, and the length and number of changes of scenery makes you feel like you've been on such a journey. The music which is brooding and subtle is very well suited to the epic and oppressive scale of it. Maybe I wouldn't play it that often, but it earns a place in my mind for being cool
Yeah that entire level was an epic journey but I can see how people wouldn’t like it. I actually agree with all the other stuff in the video. But unholy cathedral is missing
@@illyay1337 That's a tricky one for me. i can see why you and some might dislike unholy cathedral, but for me it's one of the best maps in E3. The teleporters are/were a bit obtuse and some of the side areas are pretty ugly, but the big central area (and the opening area) are aesthetically and stylistically fantastic - much more appropriate to hell than the weird half-tech mish-mashes of E3M3 and E3M4.
I think once you've gotten a bit more experienced at doom your appreciation can grow as the teleporters bother you less and you get at better learning to navigate, or just remember the level progression, but I always thought it looked great from the start
@@ThePurplePassage well the central area is pretty interesting. From an artistic and level design standpoint the entire area outside the center all looks the same so it’s hard to tell where you are when you go through the teleporters. I think it’s possible to “fix” the level by changing the theme of the 4 quadrants of the map to have different texturing so you know where you are more easily without being lost in a teleporter maze. It’s not even so much that I get lost in the level. It just feels visually bland and completely uniform throughout. But yeah the center area was pretty cool and is a standout. And there were a few other areas that were standouts.
Doom 2 imo fails to live up to doom 1 the music is worse and levels have bad flow and doesnt do enough to justify calling it a sequel
every Sandy level
Even Halls Of The Damned?
are the best, except The Pit and Nirvana.
TNT maps are cheating
Map 24, doom 2 the Chasm. Its artificial difficulty. Bullshit. Nobody liked this map.
I really hate E4M1 from the Ultimate Doom.
Hell Beneath? I'm pretty sure it was made as insanely hard as it was as a "How you like them apples?" to people who said the original release was too easy.
@@IamRobotMonkey The problem is not it's hard, it's the shortage of ammo.It's hard to fight monster on a crampled map, sure, but if you don't distribue enough ammo, it's an annoyance.
@guyg.8529 Fair comment
Man, e4m1 and 2 are such ass kicker levels that don't care what the player thinks.. before that style was cool (or dare I say, overdone).. I loved those maps for their unapologetic nature, they lived up to the hype of E4 back in the 90s more than the rest of E4, imo
@@DoomKid Is it possible (for an average player) to complete E4M1 UV-max?
Habitat lol
What you seem to miss in your judgment is that a level like Downtown was not necessarily made to be fun. It was made to impress.
I know it may be hard to imagine for some of you young whippersnappers, but my jaw dropped to the floor playing that level for the the first time. It was a glimpse into the future, and the crap puzzle design was easily outweighed by the sheer awesomeness of playing something that actually felt like a "real" city.
I played Doom in mid 1995 and I hated Factory and Downtown from the jump.
inb4 The Chasm being the worst but I just got here so that's my bet currently...Oh (Dis)Honorable Mention instead...fair enough since your adding Final Doom's TNT and Plutonia into the mix though i can understand why Downtown is disliked but I think Limbo is still worse unless memorized already its way too convoluted (also remember the difference between dislike and hate, people! "Hate" is a very overused and weaponized word these days)
Top 5 disliked levels = Top 5 disliked levels I don't like. Me me me aggggghhhh.
@@296801 This response is very odd
@ThatNukemGuy Plutonia with fast monsters fucked me up bro lol. And Plutonia 2 is non-forgiving.
"Central Processing"
I can't
"The Chasm"
what the
"habitat"
Dude is this a list of the best levels?
"Wormhole"
I wonder if you did a list of your favourite levels, it'd be the ones I enjoy the least.
"metal"
Ah finally. Even if admittedly, any level using that MIDI would become one of my least favourites.
Doom 2 had the worst fucking levels. Great game, but goddamn, were those levels annoying!