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After your informative lesson, it looks to me that a power hammer "pinches" the hot steel to make a tapered edge or point... -- UNLESS using an angled head or anvil.
Ilia, no disrespect to the years you have put in, but how did the show where we enjoy you turning hot metal into beautiful dangerous things to rock music turn into a math's class?
Apprentice: "Master, why do we do this?" Ilya: "So glad you asked!" Gives lesson from intro to physics explaining force, normal force, conservation of energy and the mathematical definition of 'Work'. Master blacksmiths for hundreds of years: "Because I bleeding well told you to, get back to work!"
There’s a time and place for both sides of the training regimen. Regardless of the field, novice’s need to know the basic of what to do to make it work, an intermediate needs to know the why we do what we do, and everything afterwards needs to on options for alternatives. Like first aid, CLS, EMT, EMT-A, Paramedic.
@@soonerfrac4611 Some people take to things better when they understand *why* they're doing it that way. An "expert" who refuses to explain the hows and whys comes off to some as "not as capable as they claim" even if that isn't necessarily the case. Meanwhile, a student who is taught those aspects won't be filling in the blanks with guesswork
@@InfernosReaperyes but also no. This is a whole load of bullshit that could be explained with zero mathetics or physics theory. Probably the biggest schlong stroke I've seen from Ilya. Cool bruh you're an academic...
@@InfernosReaper i mean, master blade smiths back then, master blade making through trial and error, they often don't really know the logic behind what they are doing, only that it worked, i mean, do you really think hardening and tempering of steel was found out by scholars, or people who did a lot of trial and error without understanding the microscopic details, like perlite and other lites in the steel?
Ilya explained the kinetic energy and potential energy + other stuff in 10 minutes than my physics teacher in 6h! Well done mate, you explain in a way that catches your attention and gets you to understand the beauty of science and smithing! Just a great teacher
It doesn't help if you don't understand the mathematical language/notation. If your experience/education was anything like mine you were never taught ANY of it. It is just a confusing non-sensical distraction.
It’s like being back at school, but actually interested in what you’re being taught! Who would have thought that smithing had so much physics behind it? Thanks for the lesson.
I started the journey of blacksmithing a short time ago. The plan was to make as many bottle openers, firepokers, s hooks and coak hooks, etc as humanly possible within a couple of months before I even attempted to make a knife. I hit short of my goals of 100 hand made pieces, but couldn't resist the temptation. I made my first knife almost exactly like this, and the results were incredibly satisfying. I am so glad that I pursued this craft, and I will always be chasing the next skill to learn in this craft. Blacksmithing will change my entire world, I can feel it's pull, no it already has changed things.
Dude you just keep commenting this on the video of an accomplished smith who has been doing this for over 20 years, has been forged in fire champion, runs a successful forge, and has won abs blade of the year. Just stop if you are looking at videos that show how to forge a blade your clearly the one that doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Wonderful video. This is why masters who work with their hands are some of the smartest people I've ever met. Moral: Never assume that the messy workman you're watching isn't as brilliant as the professor in front of the class.
As someone who works near master riggers, very true. People forget that "you know what you and you know what you were taught" (whether by someone else or experience). Just because someone doesn't know what you know, doesn't inherently mean they are stupid, they may just know stuff you don't. The world is vast and has many things to learn, it isn't necessarily all standardized to the same thing for everyone.
I have watched countless blacksmithing videos, and read a bunch of books, and I have never seen this talked about. It makes a ton of sense, and is super valuable. Thank you
This was way more indepth than I was expecting and I was so happy. Ilya looked kind of excited to explain all of the physics involved and it was extremely informative.
And after 20 minutes of science class my ability to practice and improve, the skills I need to shape hot metal with a hammer, drasticly improved. Thank you for taking the time to teach us.
I was so glad when he started pulling out physics and integrals. It's a VERY rare occurrence in fields mostly oriented towards manual labor and / or art. That's a go-to video for people saying "when am I gonna use all that in real life?". Things don't have to be separate, a theoretician benefits from real world insights and vice-versa, that's the mark of an accomplished craftsman. Hat's off.
I am constantly blown away by this man; his knowledge, his intelligence, his creativity and his ability to impart this to you without coming across with a "holier than thou" attitude...thank you Maestro
Great as always! Thanks to show that there is real science in this field. I will definitely work on other part of my anvil now! Will you do a video on proper technique for forged gard? How to minimise gap while forging and not destroying the blade along the process?
@@ThatWorks I mean a piece different from the blade through wich the teng pass before the handle. And when I say forged it's opposite to milled or drilled. I tried it and I would definitely appreciate enlightenment on the proper techniques and order of steps to be efficient.
as a hobbyist blacksmith with a decent mathematical background this video was amazing, having an expert put it in a concise understandable lecture was an absolute treat :)
also just realized this is probably an underappreciated factor of having a power hammer(may i one day be blessed by the gods with one).... you can have 2 same size heads to make relatively no unwanted curving or unintended slipping forces 😵
Thank you so much for this. I have been trying for almost 30 years to figure a way to teach this to my classes. and I am very bad at math. I know what is happening because i am doing it and seeing it. but to show someone that does not understand has a difficult time grasping it. I get asked a lot from folks where they can find a huge anvil. and i always try to steer them to a small, faced anvil with very large mass. such as a stump anvil in a buried or rooted stump. When they see how much work can be done on such an anvil with properly radiused edges. they are astounded. Yes, large anvils are super cool. and have many advantages over a small anvil when someone knows how to use those advantages. but for most, they are not needed. The Luis and Clark expedition did most of their work for the entire voyage on a roughly 60 lb. stake anvil that they sledged into a stump when setting up camp. I show lots of folks the video " Making two blacksmith hammers for blacksmithing" By " Bertram-craft and wilderness" showing the use and how efficient a stump anvil can be compared to a treadle hammer. I don't know how many ties i have met students of mine years later. that are hunching over and using glancing blows. When I ask them why they are doing that instead of the way i taught them. the three most popular answers are. '1" I can't see that far. "2" I don't feel confident enough to swing big. and "3" I saw guys on UA-cam doing it. :( :( One of my teachers told me once that if you were wearing a fedora hat, that you should graze the brim with the hammer head on every stroke unless planishing. Again. Awesome video. Tom B. from ND.
I love watching smithing channels, but this takes my understanding of it to another level. Thank you so much for the explanation. Now it actually makes sense, because you see some smiths work for weeks on a piece and it comes out average, and then someone who understands the proper use of the hammer and anvil, and they make an incredible item in a much shorter timespan. To shorten the whole thing down, thank you for the lessons, I look forward to more. 👌👌👌👍👍👍
I have a feeling like the ideal technique results in you not having to strain your mind as much focusing on the proper shot placement for your hammer, or making sure you don't mess up your plunge line with your file. it all just comes together very naturally. you weren't all that concerned filing after you'd don't the forging. i don't know how to explain it. really excellent video. thank you for teaching new people so much.
This…. All this… love this…. Someone showing you how to do a project is wonderful, that same person explaining the details of their choices so much the better, but that person giving full theory about exactly how the minute changes of form have impact and backing it up with raw theory, and tying that into the practical demonstration… that’s next level. Thank you Professor Ilya, I sincerely hope you will be willing to provide further lessons on this channel soon
During the forging process, does the steel become compressed, or does the smith simply manage where the material is at any given moment? I've seen various answers from several websites: usually the question of compression is answered by referring to the elimination of voids or inclusions, but that doesn't answer whether the metal itself, in its crystalline structure, compresses - increases in density. Also, I'd love to hear Ilya explain how the choice between casting, machining from a blank, or forging might create different properties in a blade. Idea for a ThatWorks video: the same blade made from casting, machining, and forging - any observable difference? Thanks!
At the moment/duration of contact there is a very tiny compression, but it does nothing to increase the density of the metal after that, it is mearly an elastic effect of interaction between electromagnetic forces of the electron orbitals. Think of the compression in a nuclear bomb core, but miniscule in comparrison, it is momentary. For your purposes the structure/phase of the alloy is dependant on the heat treatment and totally overwhelms/obliterates any hot-working effect of forging.
That was awesome, Ilya! I've never thought of that return force from the rest of the anvil face as the reason for blades warping up while hammering. It's makes perfect sense and you explained it very concisely! Thank you for the wisdom.
Greetings from Bavaria. The last time i got that much usefull informations was, when i read the german book: Der Schmied am Amboss (The blacksmith on the anvil) from Hundeshagen. Great work. Yes .. clearly, the anvil takes the hammerforce and brings it to the whole blade which is really lying on it. So less area lying, more force at that point. Thank you... :)
Guys awesome stuff, loved the Physical science and trigonometry discussed for the explanation of why the warping happens and so forth. But some extra attributes like the extra exerted force when dropping the hammer onto the object, which is a lot more than the standard gravitational force exerted on the hammer to hit the object is a bit much to be ignored, also Sin 45 = 1/ √2, sin 60 = √2/2. But again thanks for the explanation because the manner in which we hit the objects and on what we hit it causes the object to take shapes we didn't intend. I think that's why dyes are so important and the last part of the video explained perfectly what to expect when using the anvil.
Great demo. I have long been an advocate of heavy hammers and the correct technique of hammering. Too many smiths pay no attention to hammer weight and technique. sizing the hammer to the work is critical for efficiency .My hat is off to you.
That is one of the best laymen's physics explanation I've seen in a while. Note: Although not all the terms and math were correct, I appreciate the effort !!!
Thank you so much for making this video. As someone who has been wanting to make my own knives for a while I've been massively hesitant due to not having any power tools nor the money to get them which has obviously been a big factor that has caused me to pretty much just write it off as not possible for me to do. But this gives me a lot of insight and hope that I can actually do this as someone who doesn't have all the fancy stuff others have and rather just some simple tools, steel, fire, and oil. I seriously can't express how helpful this is.
If you have a harbor freight or similar near you then stock removal will get you started ... A cheap angle grinder and an assortment pack of wheels, a 1x30 belt sander and belts, a cordless drill, a blow torch, some water, a pair of vise grips or pliers and some sandpaper are literally all you need to make an excellent knife ... Start with 1075 its the ideal beginner steel all together you can make your first 4 knives for around $150-175usd
I love practical examples of complex math. Thowing numbers at me doesn't help things make sense, but "this number is the hammer face, this number is it's weight" really works for me.
So this is that moment when our math teacher said that algebra could save our lives... or more like our shoulders. Ilia you have to realize that doing the math on the hammer blows and the anvil reaction probably sent half the blacksmiths in America twinging into a single same-sex attraction. Just a twinge! Just a twinge. I myself will confess that when I saw what you did not fix on your anvil and why, nipples got a little hard. Not going to lie :-) All joking aside thank you guys for doing this. You guys are doing amazing work. It's wonderful in educational to see you guys do everything you do. Keep it up. And thank you. Other than that have a wonderful day
i really liked the way you tried to use math to explain the proper usage of force in order to work efficiently. The one conclusion i'd like to make is that working with a smaller anvil (like most of our blacksmithing predecessors) barely bigger that the hammer itself is the best way to impart maximum return of energy in the piece.
Hey that's a great explanation ! I study blacksmithing in school in france and that helped me quite a lot to understand what was wrong with my technique, thank you so much !
Modern steels are rolled out from ingots into big sheets. Those ingots are not as uniform as we all would like to believe. The direction in which the sheet is rolled determines the direction of inclusions and inconsistencies. Therefore these inclusions and variations are present in your things.
Absolutely love the video. Really is going to change how I'm looking at my forging. Does waight of your anvil come into play for waight of you hammer you should be using? I have a 125 lb peter wright and have been afraid to damage it with too heavy a hammer.
The hammer should not exceed 1/10th the weight of the anvil for example if you have a striker forging a large piece or some damascus etc. They shouldn't use larger than a 12.5lb hammer .....for general forge work including blades use what is most comfortable to swing repeatedly usually between 2-4lbs at the head but keep in mind no matter how good of rebound your anvil has some kinetic energy is transferred so a heavy base is essential especially for lighter anvils or they will "walk" across your floor frequently away from your forge it doesn't take much to start moving either my personal anvil is 100lbs on a 150lb base and my 4lb hammer will cause it to walk across my concrete floor
Great math breakdown. I’ve got a double horn anvil, so I should probably start forging a bit more on the flat horn to help localize the forces. Good to know!
Thank you both for another amazing video! I learned a alot especially with the way it was shown then explained. I always look forward to the videos and watch each one multiple times.
@@ThatWorks Came to watch this once again...and will have this now saved for reference to students in the future...I'm still waiting for someone that has seen a better explanation and application of the technique of proper striking modality... More like these PLEASE!!!
Brilliant video, there's not many videos putting science and math into blacksmithing. I never knew the rebound force caused the "banana" effect. Again, great video and thanks for the explanation 👍
Rebound force does not cause the banana effect in steel... Think of hot steel like you would a muscle while you stretch one you compress the other so as you draw out one edge the steel on the reverse experiences compression ... Rebound force does nothing more than pop your hammer back up making forging more efficient by requiring less effort to lift the hammer from a dead stop
Genial. Clase maestro de maestros de. Verdad que. Eres. Un genio amigo ilya saludos a todo. El equipo. Y sus familias desde chile. Fue magistral la lecciones muy bien explicadas mil gracias
Yea, I am going to have to rewatch this a few times, bit more than I was expecting for a refresher, havent forged in nearly a year due to schedule, just about to finish build my new forge in the next week or two. Good video, even if it went over my head on first view!
How much difference does the handle length and pitch, (geometry), impart to the angular velocity of the strike? Does it change the equation for acceleration, or does it also impart effective mass? Should we also apply atmospheric pressure, (imparted by altitude) to the mix to ensure accurate sums? If so we should also apply the second law of thermodynamics, in the form of entropy to figure out the effective striking time, due to the material reaching homeostasis in the given matrix. lol Love the channel, and seeing Ilya educate people about physics is wonderful! Thanks for everything you do guys!
It seemed to me you where figuring out what the anvil does and was trying to figure out how to take the anvil out of the equation. Leving in only where your hammer strikes. Very useful information. Thanks for sharing 👍.
I have to say I learned something today,and that's a good thing,because most days in my life I learn something new everyday, but unlike school,this is very useful information, and I have to say,your a pretty good teacher by the way,so Thanks man,I appreciate your time and knowledge, I hope you make more vids like these,because they are useful to me,again,thanx man
@@ThatWorks Interesting - thank you for the reply! I didn't realize that scale created divots in the first place (my actual forging experience is very limited). Love your videos by the way.
Please... Do more explaining like this Ilya... I love it... Also. I have some questions on your Math... One part I think wasn't needed. Now... I'm not saying your math is being questioned, I'm saying I have questions on your math... Just making sure that's clear
Hi Ilya, would you consider it a good idea for me to forge a hardened steel radius block like the one you showed? I have a pretty soft cast iron anvil and i feel like for its weight its too soft to get good rebound. Would it be an improvement? Would it still have the weight of the heavy anvil beneath it?
I forge out of a makeshift coal forge and I have trouble keeping the steel hot. It seems I can’t get more than 15 to 20 seconds of anvil time per heat. Should I just leave it in for longer? I have also burned 2 out of the 4 attempted blades, broken one and only finished one blade so far successfully.
I find this very interesting, although my algebra, maths and physics suck and have not been practiced in 38 years, I wish I had the knowledge to calculate the affect of poor rebound of an anvil. I had a cheap anvil with 45% rebound and it was extremely tiring and difficult to move steel, I now have two awesome anvils that have between 90-95% rebound and it makes a huge difference.
When you guys grind metal, do you get a scratchy throat? I started wearing a respirator when I grind or hand sand because of that, but I notice most knife makers don't wear any PPE when grinding.
![How to Forge a [San Mai] Chef’s Knife- Your Edge](/img/n.gif)
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One of these on grinding and finish work would be incredible!
Lies and propoganda!!!!!!
After your informative lesson, it looks to me that a power hammer "pinches" the hot steel to make a tapered edge or point... -- UNLESS using an angled head or anvil.
Ilia, no disrespect to the years you have put in, but how did the show where we enjoy you turning hot metal into beautiful dangerous things to rock music turn into a math's class?
Apprentice: "Master, why do we do this?"
Ilya: "So glad you asked!" Gives lesson from intro to physics explaining force, normal force, conservation of energy and the mathematical definition of 'Work'.
Master blacksmiths for hundreds of years: "Because I bleeding well told you to, get back to work!"
There’s a time and place for both sides of the training regimen. Regardless of the field, novice’s need to know the basic of what to do to make it work, an intermediate needs to know the why we do what we do, and everything afterwards needs to on options for alternatives.
Like first aid, CLS, EMT, EMT-A, Paramedic.
Hey.. some of us need e refresher... We don't all have physics studied. And mastered like u do bud...
@@soonerfrac4611 Some people take to things better when they understand *why* they're doing it that way. An "expert" who refuses to explain the hows and whys comes off to some as "not as capable as they claim" even if that isn't necessarily the case. Meanwhile, a student who is taught those aspects won't be filling in the blanks with guesswork
@@InfernosReaperyes but also no. This is a whole load of bullshit that could be explained with zero mathetics or physics theory. Probably the biggest schlong stroke I've seen from Ilya. Cool bruh you're an academic...
@@InfernosReaper i mean, master blade smiths back then, master blade making through trial and error, they often don't really know the logic behind what they are doing, only that it worked, i mean, do you really think hardening and tempering of steel was found out by scholars, or people who did a lot of trial and error without understanding the microscopic details, like perlite and other lites in the steel?
He's not forging knives, he's forging smiths
That's the best kind of smith.
Good one! Both, and...
….as iron sharpens iron
He will smith
He is doing neither i didnt even bother finishing the video as the first 8 minutes are all entirely wrong
Ilya explained the kinetic energy and potential energy + other stuff in 10 minutes than my physics teacher in 6h! Well done mate, you explain in a way that catches your attention and gets you to understand the beauty of science and smithing! Just a great teacher
It could also be that it was explained in a way that had your full attention !
It doesn't help if you don't understand the mathematical language/notation. If your experience/education was anything like mine you were never taught ANY of it. It is just a confusing non-sensical distraction.
It’s like being back at school, but actually interested in what you’re being taught!
Who would have thought that smithing had so much physics behind it?
Thanks for the lesson.
The trades need to go back to high school and not just in Vo-tech classes.
I doubt viking blacksmiths really gave a fuck.
I figured everyone would have thought that actually
I started the journey of blacksmithing a short time ago. The plan was to make as many bottle openers, firepokers, s hooks and coak hooks, etc as humanly possible within a couple of months before I even attempted to make a knife. I hit short of my goals of 100 hand made pieces, but couldn't resist the temptation. I made my first knife almost exactly like this, and the results were incredibly satisfying. I am so glad that I pursued this craft, and I will always be chasing the next skill to learn in this craft. Blacksmithing will change my entire world, I can feel it's pull, no it already has changed things.
Thanks for sharing! Glad you chose this path! Stay at it and I look forward to seeing your work!
A master class from Ilya, what a dream ^^
I'd pay
Id give like, all the internal organs i dont need for lessons from ilya.
Too bad he doesn't know wtf he is doing
He lied
Dude you just keep commenting this on the video of an accomplished smith who has been doing this for over 20 years, has been forged in fire champion, runs a successful forge, and has won abs blade of the year. Just stop if you are looking at videos that show how to forge a blade your clearly the one that doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Wonderful video. This is why masters who work with their hands are some of the smartest people I've ever met. Moral: Never assume that the messy workman you're watching isn't as brilliant as the professor in front of the class.
very true!
As someone who works near master riggers, very true. People forget that "you know what you and you know what you were taught" (whether by someone else or experience). Just because someone doesn't know what you know, doesn't inherently mean they are stupid, they may just know stuff you don't. The world is vast and has many things to learn, it isn't necessarily all standardized to the same thing for everyone.
I have watched countless blacksmithing videos, and read a bunch of books, and I have never seen this talked about. It makes a ton of sense, and is super valuable. Thank you
It is covered in some books for sure, but rarely!
This was way more indepth than I was expecting and I was so happy. Ilya looked kind of excited to explain all of the physics involved and it was extremely informative.
He has been waiting for an opportunity to share this info for awhile!
And after 20 minutes of science class my ability to practice and improve, the skills I need to shape hot metal with a hammer, drasticly improved. Thank you for taking the time to teach us.
Thanks for watching!
I suspect that was a little sarcastic :-/
You're incredible i didn't see a single video that explains forging as good as yours
I was so glad when he started pulling out physics and integrals. It's a VERY rare occurrence in fields mostly oriented towards manual labor and / or art. That's a go-to video for people saying "when am I gonna use all that in real life?". Things don't have to be separate, a theoretician benefits from real world insights and vice-versa, that's the mark of an accomplished craftsman. Hat's off.
This couldn’t have come at a better time… I’m currently waiting on my first own propane forge… I’ll be forging a lot of knives 😁
Let us know how it goes!
How smart do you have to be to explain the physics/math of proper hammer technique in a second language? Very impressive!
"it is middle school math"
Give yourself some credit there are many people who went through high school and don’t have a firm grasp on what you are explaining.
I am constantly blown away by this man; his knowledge, his intelligence, his creativity and his ability to impart this to you without coming across with a "holier than thou" attitude...thank you Maestro
Great as always! Thanks to show that there is real science in this field. I will definitely work on other part of my anvil now! Will you do a video on proper technique for forged gard? How to minimise gap while forging and not destroying the blade along the process?
what do you mean a forged guard? An integral ?
@@ThatWorks I mean a piece different from the blade through wich the teng pass before the handle. And when I say forged it's opposite to milled or drilled. I tried it and I would definitely appreciate enlightenment on the proper techniques and order of steps to be efficient.
thank you for teaching me a better way to set up my plunges.
You are welcome!
This pulls from multiple scientific fields. This is what makes blade/metalwork so cool its several kinds of science before it gets to be art.
exactly !
as a hobbyist blacksmith with a decent mathematical background this video was amazing, having an expert put it in a concise understandable lecture was an absolute treat :)
also just realized this is probably an underappreciated factor of having a power hammer(may i one day be blessed by the gods with one).... you can have 2 same size heads to make relatively no unwanted curving or unintended slipping forces 😵
@@youngiroh5011 quite true!
Matt doing the Macarena with a deadpan face 🤣🤣🤣
Also, an excellent lesson from Professor Ilya 😍
You are the only one that pointed that out
Thank you so much for this. I have been trying for almost 30 years to figure a way to teach this to my classes. and I am very bad at math. I know what is happening because i am doing it and seeing it. but to show someone that does not understand has a difficult time grasping it. I get asked a lot from folks where they can find a huge anvil. and i always try to steer them to a small, faced anvil with very large mass. such as a stump anvil in a buried or rooted stump. When they see how much work can be done on such an anvil with properly radiused edges. they are astounded. Yes, large anvils are super cool. and have many advantages over a small anvil when someone knows how to use those advantages. but for most, they are not needed. The Luis and Clark expedition did most of their work for the entire voyage on a roughly 60 lb. stake anvil that they sledged into a stump when setting up camp. I show lots of folks the video " Making two blacksmith hammers for blacksmithing" By " Bertram-craft and wilderness" showing the use and how efficient a stump anvil can be compared to a treadle hammer. I don't know how many ties i have met students of mine years later. that are hunching over and using glancing blows. When I ask them why they are doing that instead of the way i taught them. the three most popular answers are. '1" I can't see that far. "2" I don't feel confident enough to swing big. and "3" I saw guys on UA-cam doing it. :( :( One of my teachers told me once that if you were wearing a fedora hat, that you should graze the brim with the hammer head on every stroke unless planishing. Again. Awesome video. Tom B. from ND.
It is the mass of the "anvil system" that does the job. [Anvil system] = base + anvil
@@ilyaalekseyev3589 Yes. Very much so.
I love watching smithing channels, but this takes my understanding of it to another level. Thank you so much for the explanation. Now it actually makes sense, because you see some smiths work for weeks on a piece and it comes out average, and then someone who understands the proper use of the hammer and anvil, and they make an incredible item in a much shorter timespan. To shorten the whole thing down, thank you for the lessons, I look forward to more. 👌👌👌👍👍👍
More efficient forging means less time in the forge which translates to less decarb in your steel!
I have a feeling like the ideal technique results in you not having to strain your mind as much focusing on the proper shot placement for your hammer, or making sure you don't mess up your plunge line with your file. it all just comes together very naturally. you weren't all that concerned filing after you'd don't the forging. i don't know how to explain it.
really excellent video. thank you for teaching new people so much.
This…. All this… love this…. Someone showing you how to do a project is wonderful, that same person explaining the details of their choices so much the better, but that person giving full theory about exactly how the minute changes of form have impact and backing it up with raw theory, and tying that into the practical demonstration… that’s next level. Thank you Professor Ilya, I sincerely hope you will be willing to provide further lessons on this channel soon
WE will!
During the forging process, does the steel become compressed, or does the smith simply manage where the material is at any given moment? I've seen various answers from several websites: usually the question of compression is answered by referring to the elimination of voids or inclusions, but that doesn't answer whether the metal itself, in its crystalline structure, compresses - increases in density.
Also, I'd love to hear Ilya explain how the choice between casting, machining from a blank, or forging might create different properties in a blade.
Idea for a ThatWorks video: the same blade made from casting, machining, and forging - any observable difference?
Thanks!
At the moment/duration of contact there is a very tiny compression, but it does nothing to increase the density of the metal after that, it is mearly an elastic effect of interaction between electromagnetic forces of the electron orbitals. Think of the compression in a nuclear bomb core, but miniscule in comparrison, it is momentary. For your purposes the structure/phase of the alloy is dependant on the heat treatment and totally overwhelms/obliterates any hot-working effect of forging.
Genius!!!!! For the first time i have an ecuation for forging better!!! Thanks master Illya
Go watch a real master like joey van der steeg not this charlatan and ignore all the bullshit spewed in this video
Thank God Your Edge is back!!!
This has done more to get me interested in learning math than all of my years in school
Well that is a win win !
This is why I love to watch That Works. You guys explain the reasons for what you're doing. From the grinding to the forging. Love the content guys.
Thank you Randall!
You're explanation about how we need to take an small section to avoid strains, is simply the best! THX
That was awesome, Ilya! I've never thought of that return force from the rest of the anvil face as the reason for blades warping up while hammering. It's makes perfect sense and you explained it very concisely! Thank you for the wisdom.
Greetings from Bavaria. The last time i got that much usefull informations was, when i read the german book: Der Schmied am Amboss (The blacksmith on the anvil) from Hundeshagen.
Great work. Yes .. clearly, the anvil takes the hammerforce and brings it to the whole blade which is really lying on it. So less area lying, more force at that point. Thank you... :)
Ah thanks for pointing that one out! I remember it has a lot of useful math in it!
Engineers mind combines the understanding of how and why to practice. This was awesome.
thank you thank you!
Guys awesome stuff, loved the Physical science and trigonometry discussed for the explanation of why the warping happens and so forth. But some extra attributes like the extra exerted force when dropping the hammer onto the object, which is a lot more than the standard gravitational force exerted on the hammer to hit the object is a bit much to be ignored, also Sin 45 = 1/ √2, sin 60 = √2/2. But again thanks for the explanation because the manner in which we hit the objects and on what we hit it causes the object to take shapes we didn't intend. I think that's why dyes are so important and the last part of the video explained perfectly what to expect when using the anvil.
Great demo. I have long been an advocate of heavy hammers and the correct technique of hammering. Too many smiths pay no attention to hammer weight and technique. sizing the hammer to the work is critical for efficiency .My hat is off to you.
He didnt even get into what you are doing to the inside of your steel when you are pinching.
That is one of the best laymen's physics explanation I've seen in a while.
Note: Although not all the terms and math were correct, I appreciate the effort !!!
Can you clarify the mistakes? Just for educational purposes. I'm 18 so I'm just figuring all this out 0w0
Layman’s terms LOL
Thanks, I love it when someone breaks it down and explains what's going on!
That's what Ilyas do!
Learning so much. Wish I had seen this sooner
@00:58 is the proper plunge line blow.
Great stuff man, I'll definitely be applying some of this to my work
perfect!
I love when Ilya gives these types of lessons. Always super informative and interesting.
Thank you so much for making this video. As someone who has been wanting to make my own knives for a while I've been massively hesitant due to not having any power tools nor the money to get them which has obviously been a big factor that has caused me to pretty much just write it off as not possible for me to do. But this gives me a lot of insight and hope that I can actually do this as someone who doesn't have all the fancy stuff others have and rather just some simple tools, steel, fire, and oil. I seriously can't express how helpful this is.
Thank you and you are welcome!
If you have a harbor freight or similar near you then stock removal will get you started ... A cheap angle grinder and an assortment pack of wheels, a 1x30 belt sander and belts, a cordless drill, a blow torch, some water, a pair of vise grips or pliers and some sandpaper are literally all you need to make an excellent knife ... Start with 1075 its the ideal beginner steel all together you can make your first 4 knives for around $150-175usd
Welcome to Smithing Academy. Senior Scholar Ilya Alekseyev will dispense his course now. I loved it and I understood everything, it's awesome.
One day we will indeed have such a place!
I love practical examples of complex math.
Thowing numbers at me doesn't help things make sense, but "this number is the hammer face, this number is it's weight" really works for me.
Absolute chads, sending lots of love from Mexico, don't stop uploading!
Thank you! We wont !
So this is that moment when our math teacher said that algebra could save our lives... or more like our shoulders.
Ilia you have to realize that doing the math on the hammer blows and the anvil reaction probably sent half the blacksmiths in America twinging into a single same-sex attraction. Just a twinge! Just a twinge. I myself will confess that when I saw what you did not fix on your anvil and why, nipples got a little hard. Not going to lie :-)
All joking aside thank you guys for doing this. You guys are doing amazing work. It's wonderful in educational to see you guys do everything you do. Keep it up. And thank you.
Other than that have a wonderful day
Indeed!
Perfect video for a forge break. Thanks guys!
Thanks for watching! Hope it helps!
@@ThatWorks It does! Thank you for all you do.
This has helped me with understanding what I'm doing when I forging more than anyone else explaining the issue ever. Thank you so much!
We hope it helps you grow in your smithing!
Saving this for my wife, who is trying to learn the craft
let us know what she thinks about it
Ilya, you could've just told me to use as little contact area with the anvil as possible, and I would've taken your word for it
i really liked the way you tried to use math to explain the proper usage of force in order to work efficiently.
The one conclusion i'd like to make is that working with a smaller anvil (like most of our blacksmithing predecessors) barely bigger that the hammer itself is the best way to impart maximum return of energy in the piece.
This video is awesome. Nobody has ever talked about this on any video i have seen. Thank you
That is why we made it. I've even heard the opposite taught by some masters and it hurt our heads.
Hey that's a great explanation ! I study blacksmithing in school in france and that helped me quite a lot to understand what was wrong with my technique, thank you so much !
i thought following the grain didn't really matter much with modern steels or am i thinking of edge packing?
Forging can have an effect on grain size, but "following the grain" is a misnomer. Ilya will probably disagree.
@@AndyColglazier yea but thats grain refinement which can be achieved with normalising/annealing etc not so much following the grain no?
Modern steels are rolled out from ingots into big sheets. Those ingots are not as uniform as we all would like to believe. The direction in which the sheet is rolled determines the direction of inclusions and inconsistencies. Therefore these inclusions and variations are present in your things.
Question: Why would I use the long edge of the anvil?
Loving these tutorials would be awesome to get one that focuses indepth on forge welding using coal and charcoal
That is a possibility
Absolutely love the video. Really is going to change how I'm looking at my forging. Does waight of your anvil come into play for waight of you hammer you should be using? I have a 125 lb peter wright and have been afraid to damage it with too heavy a hammer.
Yes it does a lot! Also how you have your anvil mounted.
The hammer should not exceed 1/10th the weight of the anvil for example if you have a striker forging a large piece or some damascus etc. They shouldn't use larger than a 12.5lb hammer .....for general forge work including blades use what is most comfortable to swing repeatedly usually between 2-4lbs at the head but keep in mind no matter how good of rebound your anvil has some kinetic energy is transferred so a heavy base is essential especially for lighter anvils or they will "walk" across your floor frequently away from your forge it doesn't take much to start moving either my personal anvil is 100lbs on a 150lb base and my 4lb hammer will cause it to walk across my concrete floor
Great math breakdown. I’ve got a double horn anvil, so I should probably start forging a bit more on the flat horn to help localize the forces. Good to know!
I come back to this one every once in a while.
Thank you both for another amazing video! I learned a alot especially with the way it was shown then explained. I always look forward to the videos and watch each one multiple times.
Thank you! That means a lot to us!
I like these videos that go into a bit of the math and physics of forging. Also, you don't just grind in the bevels and edges.
Forge them and then grind
If anyone knows of a better or more detailed explanation on UA-cam I would like to see that link...This was EXCELLENT!!!
anyone ?
@@ThatWorks Came to watch this once again...and will have this now saved for reference to students in the future...I'm still waiting for someone that has seen a better explanation and application of the technique of proper striking modality...
More like these PLEASE!!!
Gotta love Ilya and his lessons
Man, you did not need all the math: the upside down camera shot explains it all! Genius.
Its been years since I did high school physics. The good old days!
That was the most fantastic explanation of how you work your anvil and work piece 👏 😎👍💯🔥
Glad you liked it!
Ilya manages to make physics both cool and useful!
I would have dream of having a physics teacher like you when I was in high school 🤩
He would give so much homework though
Brilliant video, there's not many videos putting science and math into blacksmithing. I never knew the rebound force caused the "banana" effect.
Again, great video and thanks for the explanation 👍
Thank you for watching Peter!
@@ThatWorks i really look forward to and enjoy watching your videos, I'm new to this and its very educational for me, thanks.
Rebound force does not cause the banana effect in steel... Think of hot steel like you would a muscle while you stretch one you compress the other so as you draw out one edge the steel on the reverse experiences compression ... Rebound force does nothing more than pop your hammer back up making forging more efficient by requiring less effort to lift the hammer from a dead stop
He literally just proved mathematically that it does???
@@FiredUpKnifeandTool If you're still unconvinced, do an experiment. Place a coin on the anvil and hit your hammer next to it.
What a fantastic discussion about application of force!
thank you!
When Ilya speaks, I listen.
Wow! I love seeing how much careful thought goes into your craft! Very impressive!
Holy shit, this is exactly what I needed. I mean, my hammer technique is garbage, but now I understand why it's garbage!
I admire the math lesson and the effort put into making this video
That wasn't a maths-lesson, it was a maths demonstration. Just saying.
Genial. Clase maestro de maestros de. Verdad que. Eres. Un genio amigo ilya saludos a todo. El equipo. Y sus familias desde chile. Fue magistral la lecciones muy bien explicadas mil gracias
This was the most in depth information I have found on hammer technique. So thank you for that :)
THank you for watching and letting us know!
As much as I enjoyed Ilya as physics instructor, Ilya history teacher is even better.
Yea, I am going to have to rewatch this a few times, bit more than I was expecting for a refresher, havent forged in nearly a year due to schedule, just about to finish build my new forge in the next week or two. Good video, even if it went over my head on first view!
How much difference does the handle length and pitch, (geometry), impart to the angular velocity of the strike? Does it change the equation for acceleration, or does it also impart effective mass? Should we also apply atmospheric pressure, (imparted by altitude) to the mix to ensure accurate sums? If so we should also apply the second law of thermodynamics, in the form of entropy to figure out the effective striking time, due to the material reaching homeostasis in the given matrix. lol Love the channel, and seeing Ilya educate people about physics is wonderful! Thanks for everything you do guys!
Good stuff. Ive never had any major problems with a blade bending in forging. Any tips on keeping long blades straight throughout heat treat.
As a blacksmith with a math degree I very much appreciated this
This was amazing and I hope you make a series out of it. So much value here.
It seemed to me you where figuring out what the anvil does and was trying to figure out how to take the anvil out of the equation. Leving in only where your hammer strikes. Very useful information. Thanks for sharing 👍.
Thanks for watching and for the comment!
I have to say I learned something today,and that's a good thing,because most days in my life I learn something new everyday, but unlike school,this is very useful information, and I have to say,your a pretty good teacher by the way,so Thanks man,I appreciate your time and knowledge, I hope you make more vids like these,because they are useful to me,again,thanx man
That actually made my integral calculus neurons tingle... Fascinating!
excellent !
Thanks for sharing Ilya. What's the reason for the water on the anvil?
To pop off the scale from the surface of the blade as you work to prevent divots.
@@ThatWorks Interesting - thank you for the reply! I didn't realize that scale created divots in the first place (my actual forging experience is very limited). Love your videos by the way.
Please... Do more explaining like this Ilya... I love it...
Also. I have some questions on your Math... One part I think wasn't needed.
Now... I'm not saying your math is being questioned, I'm saying I have questions on your math...
Just making sure that's clear
Ask them!
Hi Ilya, would you consider it a good idea for me to forge a hardened steel radius block like the one you showed? I have a pretty soft cast iron anvil and i feel like for its weight its too soft to get good rebound. Would it be an improvement? Would it still have the weight of the heavy anvil beneath it?
I forge out of a makeshift coal forge and I have trouble keeping the steel hot. It seems I can’t get more than 15 to 20 seconds of anvil time per heat. Should I just leave it in for longer? I have also burned 2 out of the 4 attempted blades, broken one and only finished one blade so far successfully.
Always love and look forward to your videos. So informative, so much traditional knowledge mixed with modern techniques.
That's what we do!
more of this! please please please pretty please.
I find this very interesting, although my algebra, maths and physics suck and have not been practiced in 38 years, I wish I had the knowledge to calculate the affect of poor rebound of an anvil. I had a cheap anvil with 45% rebound and it was extremely tiring and difficult to move steel, I now have two awesome anvils that have between 90-95% rebound and it makes a huge difference.
Perhaps I will ask Ilya to do a short video on just that! He will be into the challenge!
Thank you for sharing this .
i will always support illiya and matt.
Awesome, the why to things is so important! Were can I enroll
That Anvil is awesome AF!!
When you guys grind metal, do you get a scratchy throat? I started wearing a respirator when I grind or hand sand because of that, but I notice most knife makers don't wear any PPE when grinding.
this video is GOLD, thanks!
this is amazing, I hope there's more like this in the future, would love to have a physics communicator incorporate some demonstration pieces
After this video, I feel like there needs to be a t-shirt with "However" on it in Illya's honor.
"Further More"