There is no next time. This needs to be corrected. You can't put single insulation wires in a metal box and not earth it. Very surprised at this mistake by artisan.
Very informative but..... as the socket is no longer on the back box we have to make sure it is earthed, you only used a clippy 3 wago so no fly lead. As you showed us it was a ring (or radial) with the DW spur coming off hence the 3 connection. Sorry for the scrachy beard comment but can be easily missed out when in a busy situation
Had something similar in a rental property where tennant was getting shocks when touching washing machine and dishwasher. Turned out double socket under sink was faulty meaning no earth continuity between appliance and a floating voltage of 80v between appliances. Changed socket front and tested problem solved and PAT tested both appliances......👍🏻
A lot of people don’t consider simply putting a blank plate over an unwanted socket. Leave the socket outlet in place I mean. No connecting up necessary so no testing and inspection, the back box is still earthed and can easily be converted back. You might think the switches would make it stand off but didn’t when I tried it. Excellent videos thanks.
If you're curious why you were getting zapped from the casing of the dishwasher, its because they contain quite high value Y capacitors to suppress motor noise, if not earthed these will pass a fair bit of touch current - quite unpleasant if you're holding onto a good earth like that sink. Smaller Y capacitors are found in electronic power supplies which is why you can sometimes get a tingle from a laptop or phone if you're well earthed. In most cases the leakage shouldn't be too dangerous, but it is a clear indication that the earth connection is not present, any equipment fault will result in a potentially dangerous situation. In most cases if you measure from earth to the equipment chassis you will see half line voltage.
Phones and laptops are ELV. There should be no such voltages on the case. Desktop computers on the other hand are known for this. In Finland people often use then without earth so you could feel that between it and a radiator.
Too many years ago, I had an issue where touching a PC case and a radiator at the same time gave a bit of a jolt - nothing major. Measuring the PD between the case and the radiator, it was ~120v, and as it turns out, the CPC wasn't properly wired in the plug. Considering I was 17 or 18 at the time and had only just started on a BTEC ND in Electrical Engineering, I was pleased as anything to have troubleshooted the fault and worked out mathematically what caused it!
It’s also worth noting that if (or maybe when ) there’s a fire caused by these dodgy electrics I doubt that their insurance would pay up. Their question would be “show me your electrical test certificates for the last 5 years / which company did you use” ….. so for a few quid get your electrics tested annually and certified safe! Great video
These videos are great, I’m a second year electrician in Canada, yes it’s slightly different as we have a neutral conductor and run 120v for most applications, the theory is obviously the same. Keep making them and I’ll keep watching!
Once someone reported a shock from sink. I measured nothing. Next day same thing, again nothing. Decided to splash some water around, on the bench, and got 50VAC. Wiped up the water and 0V. Realised the water was joining the sink to the metal window sill. Measured the window sill and it was 240V. Isolated it and looked around. Out side a ridiculously long screw to hold a hose reel had gone in through the wall clipped the window frame and then pentrated live. They said they put that it in over 10 years ago. The paint on the metal window sill apparently is a good insulator, was only a small unpainted part on its under side that was flush with the kitchen bench inside. The screw head was live the hold time, I guess he tightened it with a insulated screw driver then never touched it. What was really amazing is that the RCD never tripped because the fresh water they used isn't a very good conductor. Now I can see why wet areas should really have 10mA and not 30mA.
A former workplace used 3kW water boilers on 13A plugs in IP (lots) rated sockets. Fine for boiling water occasionally but not for running constantly. I found that I was having to replace the plugs far too often because they were failing visual inspections (if it looks dodgy it probably is). Apparently before my time they'd had problems unplugging them where the top had come off the plug leaving the pins still in the socket which is a little alarming. Once I realised that just fixing the plug wasn't really a solution I decided to change to 16A plugs, but the room was wired in ring mains on 32A breakers. Fine if you've got a plug with a fuse, not so fine with the un-fused 16A connectors. Rather than rewire the room I installed sockets with built in MCBs which worked very nicely. I'm not sure what the sockets were intended for because putting 16A sockets on a ring main can't be all that normal a thing to do.
well actually i was in a building replacing some em-lights. traced the wires back to where they were wired for and unplugged the Klip plug luckily i thought to check for dead and found it was still very much live so traced the wires to their end only to find that they were also plugged into another Klip plug so feed from both ends thank god for safe isolation
Plus, the orange extension cable would not be rated for 16 amp and with the length of run of it feeding the 3.55kw dishwasher, there would have been a volt drop hence the warm cable.
I went out to a job not so long ago with overloading a 13amp switched fuse spur getting very hot which was in a house feeding a new consumer unit in the garage which ran hot tub,garage lights and sockets and a summerhouse with heater all on 2.5mm cable as well. Pulling 18 amps
Once had a Demag hoist that was reported as lift motor going slow. when I got there operated via pendant and it was single phasing,you could tell by noise and slow speed. Asked some questions about last things done and was informed the gantry had been extended the day before (Sunday) I had heard before that it was possible to put the collector for the control the wrong way round into the 3 phase bus bar. As gantry sat on rubber buffers and no bonding earth to anywhere the metal frame of the hoist gantry was at 230V. Earth had become one phase. When put my tester from gantry end cap to extract ducting it lit up like a xmas tree showing 230V had a lucky escape but only cause I had heard about this being possible. Corrected fault by putting collector in correctly and adding bonding. Demag said this was impossible to put collector in wrong way round try telling that to steel erectors !!! Good fault finding Jordan
I had my kitchen remodelled and was getting a shock between sink and dishwasher like this. Kitchen fitters had to call a proper electrician who found they had re-connected one leg of the RFC to a spur (using crimps and tape, which I got them to change to maintenance-free JBs) but not to the other leg of the ring. When they moved the plumbing to a new sink they left the incoming water bonding clamp loose too. Some months later all the plumbing started leaking. Great company. They also do UPVC windows...
Years ago I was called to my mother's house where she complained of getting shocks from a socket in the kitchen. I enquired as to exactly where the shock was coming from and it was from the front facing of the plastic unit. I was somewhat sceptical but took my tester and found that indeed there was over 100v pd between the plastic surface and earth. The problem was a thin accumulation of grease etc on the surface of the socket that had bridged to live elements in the switch assembly. Since the unit was quite old I replaced it and problem solved.
Tip of the ice berg at that place I bet....once I was at a customers place and he had no supply to a workshop but it had been fitted out with lights & sockets. So to power things up he connected two 13 amp plugs to a bit of flex about 30 meters long. He plugged one end into a house socket & the other end into a socket in the workshop.
Back in the day was fault finding a property where there was a voltage on the bath taps.. After much looking traced it back to the main incomer. There had been underground joints recently done outside the property and there was a fault there coming up the earth wire.. proper head scratcher
Had something similar, but not with quite the same amount of voltage. Called to an art Gallery in Chelsea because the staff were getting a shock from a toilet hand basin. An instantaneous water heater had been installed and plugged into a socket outside the toilet. The socket's earth was missing, I then found the fuse board the socket circuit was terminated into also had its earth missing. The whole four storey building used to belong to the gallery, and the boards in the basement did the whole building, but then the gallery sold the top three floors which were converted into flats. A new DNO service head was installed to accommodate this, but the earthing cable from the MET to the gallery fuse board was missing. The toilet basin water was heated from a boiler in what was now a first floor flat, so had been cut off, hence the instantaneous heater.
@@havoctrousers 1.5mm² being adequate for 16A.. Yes, that's about the limit of it, but still. A cheap bit of 1.25mm² would definitely be on the wrong side of warm, though.
Now I'm in Canada so our wiring is a little different but have you ever seen two wires coming out of two separate Breakers on the same phase wire nutted together then out to something that nobody knows what it does
I had a bookshop with thin ethernet (remember that?) the network wasn't working so went to investigate. Expected either terminator missing or an unplugged T piece. Got there went to the server went to unplug the T piece & bzzzzz 90v AC being leaked onto the coax - nasty. Very peculiar fault that couldn't figure out where that was coming from. All equipment tested OK so suggested a wiring issue somewhere & handed it over to their contractor to investigate. You just don't expect significant voltage on a network cable that hurt!
Many devices how have capacitors in the power supply that put half the mains voltage to the case if they are not earthed. The current is limited to well under 1 mA so it is not immediately dangerous but of course anything unearthed is a potentially dangerous and needs to be fixed.
+Artisan Electrics Was the circuit protected my 30mA RCD? I guess this is more like getting shocks from filter-capacitors rather than -- high leakage current per-se? I imagine the capacative coupling between line and the long run of disconnected CPC could also be significant!...
I experienced a very similar sinario with a newly installed dishwasher on-board a passenger ferry for whom l was employed. The staff were complaining of of receiving electrical shocks when either loading or unloading the machine. Checking for earth continuity l found none but that there was180 volts present between the case of the machine and the ferry's surrounding steel work. Basically what had occurred was that us as the ferry company had provided the electrical supply to a rotory isolator switch and the dishwasher company agent had connected the machine. Within the isolator switch were two separated cpc connections, l found that the cpc's had been connected separately so no earth continuity to machine had been achieved hence the high leakage voltage present. Once l corrected the earth wiring fault it cleared the electrical leakage/shock issue. When l think back it was very fortunate that the situation didn't have more serious consequences.
Funny when you showed that voltage on the dishwasher to the sink, my first thought was "Bad earth connection somewhere". Interesting I didn't realise the UK sockets are 13A. South African (old British round pins) are 16A, so the dishwasher would just make it.
It is often recommended to install a dedicated 16 amp circuit to a rotary isolator which will isolate a 16 amp commando plug. A bs 88 13 amp fuse can take upto 20 amp before popping. Kitchen equipment are always a problem as they are often on European 16 amp plug. They cut the plug of and put a 3 pin UK plug on it😳
Myself personally I would fit a 32a plug and socket for this because the 16a version will be running at full capacity and the difference in price is not an issue...obviously fused correctly for the load
Yep (AU here) had the bro inlaw (was a friend then, married his sister later lol) help rewire a prehistoric power board from an old dairy when my caravan was put there. I was living between the caravan and old vat room (living in caravan with office in vat room). BAD MISTAKE! Has to be said that it did come off a breaker board further up the line through some mains incoming grade wire (was young and dodgy so had been using a LONG extension lead and near set fire to the powerpoint so we had to upgrade due to resistance) from the shed to the old dairy. Everytime I'd lean over to do something with the computer I'd get a definite tingle. Anyway after I got fed up with it the old man and I started doing some tracing and being a wet day it was great for it. A stick in the ground at the dairy and at the breaker board, the earth's showed a ~60vAC potential. All else was fine. WIth that info we went to the board and numnuts hadn't put the earth line in the neautral/earth bridge. Something was dodgy in the building and it wasn't being earthed. We had completely stripped the board before I moved in there and were toning out and starting from scratch so I don't know wtf he was thinking, there was 1 room and 1 caravan, not a very busy board at all by time we finished. Of course now I'm older I'd have done things VERY differently from the start but country area with the old typical bang it up thing going lol. By time we ironed out the faults like the floating earth connected to nothing it worked great till the mrs got pregnant and I was forced into an actual house lol.
As a spark I will never understand how thick the general public are but without their dumbness we wouldn't have work. Businesses these day encourage charging points and WiFi they've got their priorities all wrong.
like your video a lot .... but ever since watching it i have a question...was the neutral touching the earth cable...because i cant get my head as to why the earth cable had such high voltage between the two metal parts that u had your prob....HOPING TO HEAR FROM U...THANKS
I believe that if the live wire is in contact with the conductive housing of an appliance or equipment, then the current returns to the source by taking the path of least resistance through the earth cable. Ordinarily the earth cable would not be live at all, the fact it has voltage shows that there is an earth fault somewhere on the circuit
Can be from induced currents. I had an outdoor socket with a bad earth connection in the roof. It had 35 volts to any other earth with nothing plugged in. Then someone above said the leakage in the dishwasher can be from the motor suppressors which also makes sense.
That last socket. I can see a tap in the bottom right hand corner so that socket is above a sink. My bet is that someone has moved that socket because it was getting wet. Still. Not a professional job one would like to think. But as far as the resolution of the leakage is concerned you have equalized the potential between the neutral and the earth but you had 60 volts between the live and the earth. Doesn't that indicate a problem inside the dishwasher? A short between the live and the casing? What I would normally do is measure the current in the input live wire on its own which I think is a better indication of the actual load and if it actually measures more than the 15.4 amps then that additional draw is down to leakage somewhere. Inside the dishwasher. Possibly a worn insulation or water or even a leaking heating element. That would also be an explanation for the overheating socket and extension lead. Especially if the melting is on the live pin. I think that dishwasher still needs looking at in terms of the actual draw on the live wire. You coud check it at teh CU if it's the only device on that circuit.
This is a really interesting one. I’ve seen this before with a floating earth where the electric shock was a slight tingle. I know a meter will show a voltage to a good earth but how dangerous is the touch voltage? Isn’t there a lack of potential current flow for example? I don’t think you should’ve been using a earth loop impedance test in this instance with a floating earth. Maybe a Martin dale or even better dead testing.
Generally it’s a very high impedance source (or more correctly a current sink), so not that dangerous as the voltage differential will drop to almost zero as soon as the casing with the high impedance ground gets shorted to a better ground. However, imagine that scenario, but the appliance has an internal ground fault. Now you have an appliance with an internal short to line, and a high impedance earth that will carry a current towards earth, but doesn’t have the short circuit current to pop the breaker. Then you give that appliance a better chassis ground by the casing and something that’s properly bonded. In that scenario, you hope some large RCD upstream pops, or that your hand briefly can take the required short circuit current to pop the breaker. Hence why RCDs are so extremely important in all installations.
Do you really want to know? We moved into a rental house after the previous renter vacated he had a rope light around the ceiling in one room and rather than moving it to fit to plug into the outlet he twisted wires around the prongs with a little bit of tape to extend it so it would plug-in 3 ft lower. thankfully this is just a 120 volt country. He also had used the cheap Christmas extension cords that are two prong as an abundant source of wire I believe they are 18 gauge and he was using these to relocate the thermostats for the electric 240v baseboard heating in a couple of rooms because they were buried behind furniture that was removed when he left even though it looks like it was a built-in. The outdoor motion light came down to a plug on green Christmas tree extension cord two prong so you could literally unplug the switch from the light don't know why you would want to unplug the switch from the outdoor light unless you wanted to permanently leave it on with a bypass plug but there's a switch so, thankfully at least in this case he use the prongs for the switch and the socket for the light. In case any viewers are not familiar these green Christmas tree extension cords are just zip code with cheap plastic enclosures for the socket end and we really aren't meant for permanent use or high currents. I also discovered that just about half the outlets in this one-room house all ran to a 50 amp breaker 50 amps are used for stoves 20 amps are used for Outlets and preferably 15 amps is generally the norm in households. When I left I had the entire breaker panel reorganized things with the proper wire breaker combination and completely labeled apart from one circuit which I found out the week we moved out what it went to was the outside light.
Hi great video dude. Could you tell me about that code breaker book in the background? My tutor advised me to get it but didn't explain what it actually is at all? Thank you and keep up the hard work
Twist no you don't need to twist them they just need to be within the same box and magically make connections and work. And Science in our schools is not important or safe especially right now when the three Rs are more important.
Hi Jordan, really interesting video. Recently (before lockdown) had similar issue with 60v between sink and dishwasher casing in customers house. Turns out there was no earth on the dishwasher supply! On an unrelated issue, noticed a grey book on your shelf during the early part of your video. Is it a copy of the NWT?
Artisan Electrics Hi Brother, thought it was. Tend to prefer electronic version on iPad myself. Really enjoying your video channel, very informative. Keep up the good work and keep safe.
@@artisanelectrics Yes I agree about paper. Also good to keep familiar with where everything is in the paper copy. Will look out for you on Instagram 👍
Using a DISH WASHER on an EXTENSION CABLE ?? ESPECIALLY in a commercial environment. Absolute no no NO Extension cables in such a location should be Banned. And as you say -should really be on a 16A or even better: a 32A BS 60309 socket. In fact - I would have refused to power back up the dish washer UNLESS such a socket was provided on a dedicated circuit with RCD protection. I wouldn't want to be responsible for letting a customer use such a device otherwise ( and I guess my insurers wouldn't be too happy either)
Am I the only one who brings my desktop computer into Starbucks sets everything up and then realizes that the outlets by my preferred table that I have chosen have been covered, Then proceeds to get out my Sonic screwdriver and wires directly in live? Lots of joking aside I have a device just for that situation it's coming in way more handy as a test device than actually having to tie into wires temporarily for a power but it's still a possibility. After building it I've only used it once for its intended purpose. I needed to plug in a light to unload some wood from the truck problem is the motion light on the pole had some water Ingress issues and had been relocated. so I re-engaged that line for activity and clipped on my temporary Outlet and plugged in a utility light on the garage roof. I've mainly used it for its intended purpose sort of which was to tie into wires so I can plug the circuit tracer in, it started as a radio and moved on to actually finding out that you could buy a circuit tracer for a reasonable price at Harbor Freight.
Don’t know what’s the matter with people doing crap like that, with 16amp running through that and all they had done is taped the wires together with no connectors, lucky it didn’t cause a fire or kill somebody touching the dishwasher. There are a lot of people out there who are capable of doing things properly, and all these people are doing is ruining it for everyone else and making everyone’s life more difficult when accidents occur and government responds with legislation.
I fixed a ring circuit in a flat the other day where someone had done exactly the same thing. Luckily in this case they were consistent and they'd taped the cables with a big enough gap that I got open circuit readings when testing ring continuity and no weird voltages either side.
To put some numbers to it: www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electronic-components/resources/data-sheet/eaton-tdc180-fuse-data-sheet.pdf A 13A fuse will melt its way out of a plug at 20A before it blows. To blow in under 10s will require in excess of 40A.
@@Monkeh616 According to the curve it takes 700 seconds i.e.over 11 minutes at 20 amperes so it likely takes at least 20-30 minutes or more at 16 A 13 A really means that it can take 13 A indefinitely.
@@okaro6595 The curve not extending past the 20A mark is generally indicative of near-indefinite handling of lower currents. It will very much depend on the environment as to when or, indeed, if a 13A fuse opens at 16A.
I wish you had shown us how they had taped the wires together before removing the tapes. My idea is that even good wire twisting and proper insulation can't go wrong. In my country wire bonding and taping is the standard practice. Wire terminals are so fancy.
The plug Materials are designed to a cost so they're usually stamped with a limit at which there technically supposed to be used for beyond that limit the manufacturer makes no assertions that it will handle the current and can be anything from catastrophic meltdown to continuing to work for years with nobody noticing. At least in the US we have two plug configurations that one is 15a and one is 20 amps however the manufacturing process for both are more or less the same there's a little bit of a quality difference and longevity. If it is from a reputable manufacturer they will probably have one production line and only change out the faceplate of a product.
@@artisanelectrics Why are they doing stuff like that as its not the first time, and then the metal clad socket, its a business at the end of the day with a duty of care to its staff .
7:40 the power is 3.55kw and you found 244v, so wouldn't the current be 14.5A? I agree the dishwasher shouldn't be run off a reguar plug/socket arrangement.
No, because the power is rated at the nominal supply voltage (230V). Being a primarily resistive load the power will increase with voltage, not decrease. On a proper circuit that unit is going to want nearly 3.4kW for the heater alone.
If you have a resistive load 3.55 kW at 230 V it is 14.9 ohm and 15.4 amperes. If you run it then at 240 V you get 16.1 A and 3.8 kW. At 244 V you would get 16.4 amperes.
My Tool Shop: www.amazon.co.uk/shop/artisanelectrics
These fault finding videos are really interesting it really stretches your thinking and will make you a better electrician.
Yeah thanks glad you enjoyed it
Next time Don’t use a wago for the earths pop them in the earth tag in the back box, That way the metal box will be earthed as required.
All metal boxes here in New Zealand have to be earthed, not much different to UK?
Maybe a 4way WAGO with fly lead to the back box
There is no next time. This needs to be corrected. You can't put single insulation wires in a metal box and not earth it. Very surprised at this mistake by artisan.
Very informative but..... as the socket is no longer on the back box we have to make sure it is earthed, you only used a clippy 3 wago so no fly lead. As you showed us it was a ring (or radial) with the DW spur coming off hence the 3 connection. Sorry for the scrachy beard comment but can be easily missed out when in a busy situation
Yeah good point!
I really liked the format of this video... A little of talking then showing us the problem 👍
Thanks! 👍
Yes I agree nice editing. Though I do enjoy the real time ones discovering things as you go along. Variety spice of life💡
Math Man thanks a lot
Had something similar in a rental property where tennant was getting shocks when touching washing machine and dishwasher. Turned out double socket under sink was faulty meaning no earth continuity between appliance and a floating voltage of 80v between appliances. Changed socket front and tested problem solved and PAT tested both appliances......👍🏻
Awesome thanks for sharing
Was that David Tennant? I would have thought he was a property owner, not a tenant.
A lot of people don’t consider simply putting a blank plate over an unwanted socket. Leave the socket outlet in place I mean. No connecting up necessary so no testing and inspection, the back box is still earthed and can easily be converted back. You might think the switches would make it stand off but didn’t when I tried it. Excellent videos thanks.
Thanks!
The screws won't have any reliable earth contact that way..
If you're curious why you were getting zapped from the casing of the dishwasher, its because they contain quite high value Y capacitors to suppress motor noise, if not earthed these will pass a fair bit of touch current - quite unpleasant if you're holding onto a good earth like that sink. Smaller Y capacitors are found in electronic power supplies which is why you can sometimes get a tingle from a laptop or phone if you're well earthed. In most cases the leakage shouldn't be too dangerous, but it is a clear indication that the earth connection is not present, any equipment fault will result in a potentially dangerous situation. In most cases if you measure from earth to the equipment chassis you will see half line voltage.
Phones and laptops are ELV. There should be no such voltages on the case. Desktop computers on the other hand are known for this. In Finland people often use then without earth so you could feel that between it and a radiator.
Too many years ago, I had an issue where touching a PC case and a radiator at the same time gave a bit of a jolt - nothing major. Measuring the PD between the case and the radiator, it was ~120v, and as it turns out, the CPC wasn't properly wired in the plug. Considering I was 17 or 18 at the time and had only just started on a BTEC ND in Electrical Engineering, I was pleased as anything to have troubleshooted the fault and worked out mathematically what caused it!
It’s also worth noting that if (or maybe when ) there’s a fire caused by these dodgy electrics I doubt that their insurance would pay up. Their question would be “show me your electrical test certificates for the last 5 years / which company did you use” ….. so for a few quid get your electrics tested annually and certified safe! Great video
These videos are great, I’m a second year electrician in Canada, yes it’s slightly different as we have a neutral conductor and run 120v for most applications, the theory is obviously the same. Keep making them and I’ll keep watching!
Once someone reported a shock from sink. I measured nothing. Next day same thing, again nothing. Decided to splash some water around, on the bench, and got 50VAC. Wiped up the water and 0V. Realised the water was joining the sink to the metal window sill. Measured the window sill and it was 240V. Isolated it and looked around. Out side a ridiculously long screw to hold a hose reel had gone in through the wall clipped the window frame and then pentrated live. They said they put that it in over 10 years ago. The paint on the metal window sill apparently is a good insulator, was only a small unpainted part on its under side that was flush with the kitchen bench inside. The screw head was live the hold time, I guess he tightened it with a insulated screw driver then never touched it. What was really amazing is that the RCD never tripped because the fresh water they used isn't a very good conductor. Now I can see why wet areas should really have 10mA and not 30mA.
Hi, just a little issue, you should Earth the back box as the 3.5mm screws could come live if a wire touches the back box.good video thanks
A former workplace used 3kW water boilers on 13A plugs in IP (lots) rated sockets. Fine for boiling water occasionally but not for running constantly. I found that I was having to replace the plugs far too often because they were failing visual inspections (if it looks dodgy it probably is). Apparently before my time they'd had problems unplugging them where the top had come off the plug leaving the pins still in the socket which is a little alarming. Once I realised that just fixing the plug wasn't really a solution I decided to change to 16A plugs, but the room was wired in ring mains on 32A breakers. Fine if you've got a plug with a fuse, not so fine with the un-fused 16A connectors. Rather than rewire the room I installed sockets with built in MCBs which worked very nicely.
I'm not sure what the sockets were intended for because putting 16A sockets on a ring main can't be all that normal a thing to do.
well actually i was in a building replacing some em-lights. traced the wires back to where they were wired for and unplugged the Klip plug luckily i thought to check for dead and found it was still very much live so traced the wires to their end only to find that they were also plugged into another Klip plug so feed from both ends thank god for safe isolation
Plus, the orange extension cable would not be rated for 16 amp and with the length of run of it feeding the 3.55kw dishwasher, there would have been a volt drop hence the warm cable.
The metal clad socket at the end was mint😂
I went out to a job not so long ago with overloading a 13amp switched fuse spur getting very hot which was in a house feeding a new consumer unit in the garage which ran hot tub,garage lights and sockets and a summerhouse with heater all on 2.5mm cable as well. Pulling 18 amps
Wow thanks for sharing
"Pulling" 18amps?
Once had a Demag hoist that was reported as lift motor going slow. when I got there operated via pendant and it was single phasing,you could tell by noise and slow speed. Asked some questions about last things done and was informed the gantry had been extended the day before (Sunday) I had heard before that it was possible to put the collector for the control the wrong way round into the 3 phase bus bar. As gantry sat on rubber buffers and no bonding earth to anywhere the metal frame of the hoist gantry was at 230V. Earth had become one phase. When put my tester from gantry end cap to extract ducting it lit up like a xmas tree showing 230V had a lucky escape but only cause I had heard about this being possible. Corrected fault by putting collector in correctly and adding bonding. Demag said this was impossible to put collector in wrong way round try telling that to steel erectors !!! Good fault finding Jordan
I had my kitchen remodelled and was getting a shock between sink and dishwasher like this. Kitchen fitters had to call a proper electrician who found they had re-connected one leg of the RFC to a spur (using crimps and tape, which I got them to change to maintenance-free JBs) but not to the other leg of the ring. When they moved the plumbing to a new sink they left the incoming water bonding clamp loose too. Some months later all the plumbing started leaking. Great company. They also do UPVC windows...
Oh that’s awful what a terrible story but thanks for sharing it
Years ago I was called to my mother's house where she complained of getting shocks from a socket in the kitchen. I enquired as to exactly where the shock was coming from and it was from the front facing of the plastic unit. I was somewhat sceptical but took my tester and found that indeed there was over 100v pd between the plastic surface and earth. The problem was a thin accumulation of grease etc on the surface of the socket that had bridged to live elements in the switch assembly. Since the unit was quite old I replaced it and problem solved.
Wow, that's not something I would've expected!
Tip of the ice berg at that place I bet....once I was at a customers place and he had no supply to a workshop but it had been fitted out with lights & sockets. So to power things up he connected two 13 amp plugs to a bit of flex about 30 meters long. He plugged one end into a house socket & the other end into a socket in the workshop.
had the samen thing once, playied with arcs from the metallic surtface to a wire i put on copper waterpipes. had 110V
Sometimes you have to work live, ever tried getting a car plant to switch off the production line while you repair overhead canopy lights.
Back in the day was fault finding a property where there was a voltage on the bath taps.. After much looking traced it back to the main incomer. There had been underground joints recently done outside the property and there was a fault there coming up the earth wire.. proper head scratcher
Had something similar, but not with quite the same amount of voltage. Called to an art Gallery in Chelsea because the staff were getting a shock from a toilet hand basin. An instantaneous water heater had been installed and plugged into a socket outside the toilet. The socket's earth was missing, I then found the fuse board the socket circuit was terminated into also had its earth missing.
The whole four storey building used to belong to the gallery, and the boards in the basement did the whole building, but then the gallery sold the top three floors which were converted into flats. A new DNO service head was installed to accommodate this, but the earthing cable from the MET to the gallery fuse board was missing.
The toilet basin water was heated from a boiler in what was now a first floor flat, so had been cut off, hence the instantaneous heater.
Wow! 🤯
Gosh lucky it did not catch fire 🔥 that 2.5mm cable and extension lead must have been glowing trying to pull all that power
Mildly warm, 16A isn't that much. The 'joints', however..
Yeah it was pretty warm
16A isn't much for 2.5mm but that extension lead is probably 1.5mm at best.
@@havoctrousers 1.5mm² being adequate for 16A.. Yes, that's about the limit of it, but still. A cheap bit of 1.25mm² would definitely be on the wrong side of warm, though.
@@Monkeh616 be careful applying installed solid-core cable logic to frequently abused, stamped on and crushed extension cord stranded flex.
Now I'm in Canada so our wiring is a little different but have you ever seen two wires coming out of two separate Breakers on the same phase wire nutted together then out to something that nobody knows what it does
4:14 My heart skipped when you touched the earthed casing on the socket. If I was in that place I would not be touching anything metal lol.
Yes, the Earth has gone crazy.
Oh, you meant something else.
😂
What happened to the cracked socket?
Should have connected the knockout box to earth at 6.33
Dodgy! It's also a quite dirty looking place for a bakery, would be a BRC case as well I think.
I had a bookshop with thin ethernet (remember that?) the network wasn't working so went to investigate. Expected either terminator missing or an unplugged T piece.
Got there went to the server went to unplug the T piece & bzzzzz 90v AC being leaked onto the coax - nasty.
Very peculiar fault that couldn't figure out where that was coming from. All equipment tested OK so suggested a wiring issue somewhere & handed it over to their contractor to investigate.
You just don't expect significant voltage on a network cable that hurt!
Many devices how have capacitors in the power supply that put half the mains voltage to the case if they are not earthed. The current is limited to well under 1 mA so it is not immediately dangerous but of course anything unearthed is a potentially dangerous and needs to be fixed.
+Artisan Electrics
Was the circuit protected my 30mA RCD? I guess this is more like getting shocks from filter-capacitors rather than -- high leakage current per-se? I imagine the capacative coupling between line and the long run of disconnected CPC could also be significant!...
Some commercial industrial boards dont have rcds
@@rowles13 as do many domestic older boards up to about 1980s ... that is not a surprise, but question is -- this particular circumstance....
@@sbusweb not having a go buddy,I'm just making a assumption perhaps I'm wrong👍
No,that's not how you _size_ a circuit breaker.
Also you do need to check what trip curve is needed on that circuit.
I experienced a very similar sinario with a newly installed dishwasher on-board a passenger ferry for whom l was employed. The staff were complaining of of receiving electrical shocks when either loading or unloading the machine. Checking for earth continuity l found none but that there was180 volts present between the case of the machine and the ferry's surrounding steel work. Basically what had occurred was that us as the ferry company had provided the electrical supply to a rotory isolator switch and the dishwasher company agent had connected the machine. Within the isolator switch were two separated cpc connections, l found that the cpc's had been connected separately so no earth continuity to machine had been achieved hence the high leakage voltage present. Once l corrected the earth wiring fault it cleared the electrical leakage/shock issue. When l think back it was very fortunate that the situation didn't have more serious consequences.
good fine well done
Funny when you showed that voltage on the dishwasher to the sink, my first thought was "Bad earth connection somewhere".
Interesting I didn't realise the UK sockets are 13A.
South African (old British round pins) are 16A, so the dishwasher would just make it.
Good job !!
Shouldn’t a 16A commando socket be on a dedicated 16A circuit seeing as the socket doesn’t have a fuse?
It is often recommended to install a dedicated 16 amp circuit to a rotary isolator which will isolate a 16 amp commando plug. A bs 88 13 amp fuse can take upto 20 amp before popping. Kitchen equipment are always a problem as they are often on European 16 amp plug. They cut the plug of and put a 3 pin UK plug on it😳
Always a wide range of content, keep it up👍
Yep!
Thanks!
@@kevinpayne9916 to be a pedantic knob, plug fuses are BS1362 - BS88 are the larger HRC fuses with metal tabs used in older distribution boards. :D
Really weird issue. Thanks a lot for sharing this!
Myself personally I would fit a 32a plug and socket for this because the 16a version will be running at full capacity and the difference in price is not an issue...obviously fused correctly for the load
Yeah good idea
Well done sir.a most excellent fault find.keep up the great videos and.great work.
Thanks!
Yep (AU here) had the bro inlaw (was a friend then, married his sister later lol) help rewire a prehistoric power board from an old dairy when my caravan was put there. I was living between the caravan and old vat room (living in caravan with office in vat room). BAD MISTAKE! Has to be said that it did come off a breaker board further up the line through some mains incoming grade wire (was young and dodgy so had been using a LONG extension lead and near set fire to the powerpoint so we had to upgrade due to resistance) from the shed to the old dairy.
Everytime I'd lean over to do something with the computer I'd get a definite tingle. Anyway after I got fed up with it the old man and I started doing some tracing and being a wet day it was great for it. A stick in the ground at the dairy and at the breaker board, the earth's showed a ~60vAC potential. All else was fine.
WIth that info we went to the board and numnuts hadn't put the earth line in the neautral/earth bridge. Something was dodgy in the building and it wasn't being earthed.
We had completely stripped the board before I moved in there and were toning out and starting from scratch so I don't know wtf he was thinking, there was 1 room and 1 caravan, not a very busy board at all by time we finished.
Of course now I'm older I'd have done things VERY differently from the start but country area with the old typical bang it up thing going lol. By time we ironed out the faults like the floating earth connected to nothing it worked great till the mrs got pregnant and I was forced into an actual house lol.
Wow what a story! Lucky to be alive!
Excellent, thanks. Did you find out who did the bodge with the tape and have a little chat with him or her?
Yes I certainly did! 😂
@@artisanelectrics Good man. Did they understand and accept how dangerous it was?
But why was the washing machine casing live? The neutral wasn't broken, so there was a return path....
Why didn't the breaker trip for the earth fault, and if the dishwasher pulls more than 13A, does not have a fuse in the plug?
They do not trip immediately. In fact it could last so small overload indefinitely.
As a spark I will never understand how thick the general public are but without their dumbness we wouldn't have work. Businesses these day encourage charging points and WiFi they've got their priorities all wrong.
That's funny cuz I'm thinking about making another comment.
Trust me there will be a dozen different industries who think exactly the same of you!
like your video a lot .... but ever since watching it i have a question...was the neutral touching the earth cable...because i cant get my head as to why the earth cable had such high voltage between the two metal parts that u had your prob....HOPING TO HEAR FROM U...THANKS
I believe that if the live wire is in contact with the conductive housing of an appliance or equipment, then the current returns to the source by taking the path of least resistance through the earth cable. Ordinarily the earth cable would not be live at all, the fact it has voltage shows that there is an earth fault somewhere on the circuit
Can be from induced currents. I had an outdoor socket with a bad earth connection in the roof. It had 35 volts to any other earth with nothing plugged in.
Then someone above said the leakage in the dishwasher can be from the motor suppressors which also makes sense.
That last socket. I can see a tap in the bottom right hand corner so that socket is above a sink. My bet is that someone has moved that socket because it was getting wet. Still. Not a professional job one would like to think. But as far as the resolution of the leakage is concerned you have equalized the potential between the neutral and the earth but you had 60 volts between the live and the earth. Doesn't that indicate a problem inside the dishwasher? A short between the live and the casing? What I would normally do is measure the current in the input live wire on its own which I think is a better indication of the actual load and if it actually measures more than the 15.4 amps then that additional draw is down to leakage somewhere. Inside the dishwasher. Possibly a worn insulation or water or even a leaking heating element. That would also be an explanation for the overheating socket and extension lead. Especially if the melting is on the live pin. I think that dishwasher still needs looking at in terms of the actual draw on the live wire. You coud check it at teh CU if it's the only device on that circuit.
Thanks Jordan
GOOD EVENING
You fixed fucked up DIY electrical work. Good detective work.
This is a really interesting one. I’ve seen this before with a floating earth where the electric shock was a slight tingle. I know a meter will show a voltage to a good earth but how dangerous is the touch voltage? Isn’t there a lack of potential current flow for example? I don’t think you should’ve been using a earth loop impedance test in this instance with a floating earth. Maybe a Martin dale or even better dead testing.
Generally it’s a very high impedance source (or more correctly a current sink), so not that dangerous as the voltage differential will drop to almost zero as soon as the casing with the high impedance ground gets shorted to a better ground. However, imagine that scenario, but the appliance has an internal ground fault. Now you have an appliance with an internal short to line, and a high impedance earth that will carry a current towards earth, but doesn’t have the short circuit current to pop the breaker. Then you give that appliance a better chassis ground by the casing and something that’s properly bonded. In that scenario, you hope some large RCD upstream pops, or that your hand briefly can take the required short circuit current to pop the breaker. Hence why RCDs are so extremely important in all installations.
Do you really want to know? We moved into a rental house after the previous renter vacated he had a rope light around the ceiling in one room and rather than moving it to fit to plug into the outlet he twisted wires around the prongs with a little bit of tape to extend it so it would plug-in 3 ft lower. thankfully this is just a 120 volt country. He also had used the cheap Christmas extension cords that are two prong as an abundant source of wire I believe they are 18 gauge and he was using these to relocate the thermostats for the electric 240v baseboard heating in a couple of rooms because they were buried behind furniture that was removed when he left even though it looks like it was a built-in. The outdoor motion light came down to a plug on green Christmas tree extension cord two prong so you could literally unplug the switch from the light don't know why you would want to unplug the switch from the outdoor light unless you wanted to permanently leave it on with a bypass plug but there's a switch so, thankfully at least in this case he use the prongs for the switch and the socket for the light. In case any viewers are not familiar these green Christmas tree extension cords are just zip code with cheap plastic enclosures for the socket end and we really aren't meant for permanent use or high currents.
I also discovered that just about half the outlets in this one-room house all ran to a 50 amp breaker 50 amps are used for stoves 20 amps are used for Outlets and preferably 15 amps is generally the norm in households. When I left I had the entire breaker panel reorganized things with the proper wire breaker combination and completely labeled apart from one circuit which I found out the week we moved out what it went to was the outside light.
Hi great video dude. Could you tell me about that code breaker book in the background? My tutor advised me to get it but didn't explain what it actually is at all? Thank you and keep up the hard work
Everyone knows your meant to twist the wires together before taping up 😂
.....clearly not.
😂
Twist no you don't need to twist them they just need to be within the same box and magically make connections and work. And Science in our schools is not important or safe especially right now when the three Rs are more important.
Pretty sure thats how Americans wire up whole buildings....
Unbelievable, nice one Jordon.👍
Thanks!
Show us the commando socket and full repairs.
Will do!
Hi Jordan, really interesting video. Recently (before lockdown) had similar issue with 60v between sink and dishwasher casing in customers house. Turns out there was no earth on the dishwasher supply! On an unrelated issue, noticed a grey book on your shelf during the early part of your video. Is it a copy of the NWT?
Hi Brother! Thanks for the comment! Yes it’s my large print NWT well spotted!
Artisan Electrics Hi Brother, thought it was. Tend to prefer electronic version on iPad myself. Really enjoying your video channel, very informative. Keep up the good work and keep safe.
Awesome thanks for messaging me. Feel free to contact me on Instagram any time.
I also use the digital version most of the time but I do like the feel of paper every so often
@@artisanelectrics Yes I agree about paper. Also good to keep familiar with where everything is in the paper copy. Will look out for you on Instagram 👍
Another interesting vid. Cheers Jordan. 👍🏼
Good video cheers mate
Using a DISH WASHER on an EXTENSION CABLE ?? ESPECIALLY in a commercial environment.
Absolute no no NO Extension cables in such a location should be Banned.
And as you say -should really be on a 16A or even better: a 32A BS 60309 socket.
In fact - I would have refused to power back up the dish washer UNLESS such a socket was provided on a dedicated circuit with RCD protection.
I wouldn't want to be responsible for letting a customer use such a device otherwise ( and I guess my insurers wouldn't be too happy either)
Is it code to use pan heads screws ?
Am I the only one who brings my desktop computer into Starbucks sets everything up and then realizes that the outlets by my preferred table that I have chosen have been covered, Then proceeds to get out my Sonic screwdriver and wires directly in live?
Lots of joking aside I have a device just for that situation it's coming in way more handy as a test device than actually having to tie into wires temporarily for a power but it's still a possibility. After building it I've only used it once for its intended purpose. I needed to plug in a light to unload some wood from the truck problem is the motion light on the pole had some water Ingress issues and had been relocated. so I re-engaged that line for activity and clipped on my temporary Outlet and plugged in a utility light on the garage roof. I've mainly used it for its intended purpose sort of which was to tie into wires so I can plug the circuit tracer in, it started as a radio and moved on to actually finding out that you could buy a circuit tracer for a reasonable price at Harbor Freight.
Nice job
Thanks
Don’t know what’s the matter with people doing crap like that, with 16amp running through that and all they had done is taped the wires together with no connectors, lucky it didn’t cause a fire or kill somebody touching the dishwasher. There are a lot of people out there who are capable of doing things properly, and all these people are doing is ruining it for everyone else and making everyone’s life more difficult when accidents occur and government responds with legislation.
I fixed a ring circuit in a flat the other day where someone had done exactly the same thing. Luckily in this case they were consistent and they'd taped the cables with a big enough gap that I got open circuit readings when testing ring continuity and no weird voltages either side.
Nice fault finding...✌👍
Thanks!
If it was drawing 16A, why did the 13A fuse in the extension lead not rupture?
They don’t blow unless you take quite a lot more than 13amps in real life
To put some numbers to it: www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electronic-components/resources/data-sheet/eaton-tdc180-fuse-data-sheet.pdf
A 13A fuse will melt its way out of a plug at 20A before it blows. To blow in under 10s will require in excess of 40A.
@@Monkeh616 According to the curve it takes 700 seconds i.e.over 11 minutes at 20 amperes so it likely takes at least 20-30 minutes or more at 16 A
13 A really means that it can take 13 A indefinitely.
@@okaro6595 The curve not extending past the 20A mark is generally indicative of near-indefinite handling of lower currents. It will very much depend on the environment as to when or, indeed, if a 13A fuse opens at 16A.
Do you guys not ground your boxes ?
Great video. Scary shit 😳
I know! 😬
I wish you had shown us how they had taped the wires together before removing the tapes. My idea is that even good wire twisting and proper insulation can't go wrong. In my country wire bonding and taping is the standard practice. Wire terminals are so fancy.
why 30 amps overload a plug top. Apologies but I didn't get it
The plug Materials are designed to a cost so they're usually stamped with a limit at which there technically supposed to be used for beyond that limit the manufacturer makes no assertions that it will handle the current and can be anything from catastrophic meltdown to continuing to work for years with nobody noticing. At least in the US we have two plug configurations that one is 15a and one is 20 amps however the manufacturing process for both are more or less the same there's a little bit of a quality difference and longevity. If it is from a reputable manufacturer they will probably have one production line and only change out the faceplate of a product.
Is this the bakery where you have done work before in previous video's?
Yep!
@@artisanelectrics Why are they doing stuff like that as its not the first time, and then the metal clad socket, its a business at the end of the day with a duty of care to its staff .
Richard Hennessy And the fire brigade who will eventually be called.
spot on.
Exactly what the doctor ordered Jordan.🙌
👍
First.🥳 Don’t apologize, you are awsome.😀🇩🇰
Elektrikeren thanks!
Yeehaw!!!!!!
Lost neutral PME supply??
Nope
Bit crap if the manufacturers sold it with a normal plug on it.
7:40 the power is 3.55kw and you found 244v, so wouldn't the current be 14.5A? I agree the dishwasher shouldn't be run off a reguar plug/socket arrangement.
No, because the power is rated at the nominal supply voltage (230V). Being a primarily resistive load the power will increase with voltage, not decrease. On a proper circuit that unit is going to want nearly 3.4kW for the heater alone.
@@Monkeh616 ah, thanks, so at 244v and 16A the dishwasher would have power of 3.9kw.
@@loosecannon5813 Something around there, yes.
If you have a resistive load 3.55 kW at 230 V it is 14.9 ohm and 15.4 amperes. If you run it then at 240 V you get 16.1 A and 3.8 kW. At 244 V you would get 16.4 amperes.
Bag video as well.
You realise some of what you sell on Amazon is free if you know where to look?
How can you get free tools?!
Artisan Electrics Sorry; I didn’t mean the tools. Just the IET document for In service Inspection and testing.
I down loaded mine for free....
From a very well known website. Although, it’s possible you may need to be a member of said organisation. Not sure?!
K C yeah you’re right I got it free too
Your general audio level in this video with the intro etc. is also very LOW. FYI.
Well found. Don’t touch it again baker man!
Yep!
looks a dirty place !! perhaps recommend a good clean ?
Dreadful sound quality ☢️☢️☢️☢️ other than that good vid. Gopro for Xmas Jordan 🤔🤔🤔😜😜😜
Thanks you’re so kind! 😂
@@artisanelectrics I am not santa buy your own gopro😋😋😋
lol tf