Fault Finding Disaster...
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2020
- Fault Finding Disaster...
Join me as I explain a really rubbish day of fault finding...
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#FaultFinding #ElectricianLife #ArtisanElectrics - Наука та технологія
Watch another fault finding video here: ua-cam.com/video/BK6ykUkJ-8A/v-deo.html
Well done Jordan, you don’t just post the success stories but show it how it is in reality as well
Thanks 🙏
Do what's best, fastest, and easiest. Don't listen to these whiny little keyboard warriors.
100% this. Fault finding isn't a science. It's an art. I don't care what 2391 says. Yes, IR and continuity measurements can HELP. But experience and 'gut feeling' (actually another form of experience ;) ) factor in massively.
We've found a couple of hard to locate faults via the old 'bang test'. reset the breaker onto the fault, see which white plastic accessory becomes backlit ;)... (yes there are risks... but... that's just an extreme example to prove a point)
Addition. If you DO resort to that type of testing. Be aware of the risks... and change the damn breaker afterwards. You'll have damaged it
@@TheChipmunk2008 just curious why you think he would have damaged the breaker
@@oliverriall breakers are required to survive closing onto a fault. The rules DO NOT require them to work afterwards. Add the 'cheapest is best' attitude of manufacturers....
I've witnessed the effect myself. breakers welded shut :(... the better manufacturers include a fusible section....
Hi Jordan, Your first instinct was correct. As my old boss used say "Never go too technical to quickly" he's been proved right many times over the years.
That’s so he could charge more hours for having you on site 🤣 being an electrician is a practical hands on job.
KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid
Sometimes your hunch is right, sometimes it's wrong. You won't be 100% spot on immediately, because fault finding can lead to unexpected results. I'm glad you posted the vid. Thanks Jordan.
I always started with unplugging everything, see if the breaker stays on I plug everything back in again and wait for the fault to happen
You can measure isolations etc afterward and make sure, everything is still save to use
But finding the problem would always be the first thing on my list
Dont let people tell you how you have to do your work
Do it within the regulations and how you feel comfortable
I'm so impressed how you can compose your story so well whilst driving. Almost fifty years ago I was working with an electrician who was frantically trying to locate a fault in a large glass bending factory. It seemed so obvious to me at 15 years of age that turning off one of the main switches would isolate the problem. Shortly after I did there was panic stations everywhere. Massive pieces of glass in large ovens starting to cool.
Faulty appliance is far more likely than wiring as there is way more to go wrong. Also, it makes sense to test the easiest/quickest things first, almost regardless of likelihood of fault.
I agree, but to add some due diligence on the fact that Jordan mentioned the "MCB went bang". The isolation of said appliance would cure the issue, then further steps to as do as practically possible to ascertain the integrity of the system supplying is as necessary as the prior.
I work at a Uni doing maintenance and have this kind of problem week in week out all year round..Bang test works best for me, very rare we have to do the "proper" test.
Dave Johnson bang test is the best test 🤣 never fails!
@@r.h.8754 if the expensive equipment is causing the bang, it doesn't matter because it's already f*****😄
Thank goodness there are still honest electricians around who do a thorough job and check things properly. Apart from anything else you’ve covered yourself - who knows what the last guy left behind. Great work!
Dear sir.you have not wasted your time.you have been thorough,excellent job
nothing worse than going on a wild goose chase for something you find to be easy. Happens every now and then tho Jordan 👌🏼 we’ve all been there, only human
The fridge could have some smart electronics onboard that has a startup delay, and after the relay there could be a fault.
Great that you're willing to share the not so good days Jordan. We all have annoying days like this and it's always good to share. Having read Physics at uni I really enjoy your channel and the insights into the life of an Electrician. It's a good reminder to people like me that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
All the best with expanding the business.
The refrigerated medicine cabinets at my doctor's office have high temp alarms fitted which alert (by SMS) those who need to know instantly that there is a problem. With thousands of pounds worth of medicine at stake, you'd be a fool not to have such a system in place. Wonder if your customer will now realize that?
Dont worry about it Jordon you done great sometimes the logical steps in finding the faults gets the better of us. The main point is you resolved the issue and found the fault. Stick to your proven and tested methods. People will always have something negative to say. Your a star mate keep up the good work. Much valued and appreciated.
Jordan. I work in IT and I often have to do troubleshooting. Depending on the situation, I can do what's called "shoot from the hip", which means I use my experience to just hope that I can solve the problem. However, if it is more critical, like the situation you had, then a more methodical approach is prudent, because more often than not, it is better to know what the problem isn't as well.
So in my view you did the right thing
I enjoy your videos and have enormous respect for your honesty and integrity. Best of Luck,
Keep the faith bud your a good spark trying to do the right thing . Love your posts as they are real world
Interesting topic.
I think you instinctively ‘knew’ what it probably was, straight away. ........ and on this occasion you were right.
Without the thought in your head of other people’s opinions and practises you’d have got to the fault almost immediately.
I always think of it like driving. You do what you have to do to pass the test and then you actually learn how to drive.
You’d never have left it unsafe or untested, so in effect, the result would be the same.
A lot of times, the most obvious answer is the first thought of.
Enjoy your videos greatly.
Happens to everyone at some point during fault finding! Don’t worry about it. As long as you learned from it then no problem. Fair play for sharing the story though, and great channel! Keep up the good work:)
new sub here, love the videos and the honesty in your videos, i too am an electrician in australia but work on different stuff to you but it all comes down to the basics in electricity in the end and just knowing different types of gear ect . keep up the good work
Doing it the “right” way in a doctors office or any other medical setting makes a lot more sense than in a home.
I recommend a few cold beers and put your feet up.
As on old spark once said to me, at the end of the day lad "its only wires".
My day to day motto ever since😅
and angry pixies. LOADS of angry pixies.
I got moaned at when I was an apprentice for being a bang tester.
But sometimes you’ve got to recreate the problem to find the fix😊
Easy after to criticise but I would’ve done the same don’t beat yourself up mate
The problem I have with bang testing is that I've seen dead shorts fry MCBs, and not only once. Having to rush and get a replacement for an obscure MCB is quite annoying.
Good job as always. Thanks a lot. Electricity is great always keeps the brain running and never a dull moment. Cheers.
Hi Jordan love your honesty in sharing the day to day problems of an electrician. I had a fault in a social club that was having a refurbishment. The lighting circuit worked fine until the circuit breaker was turn off it would then go with a bang. It's would reset fine and insulation test clear.Turn on and off again would still go with a bang. Joiners putting up battens on wall so test all the screws to earth and LN .One screw shorted to earth,screw had gone through sheath of cable nearly touching the live cable so has the MCB was switched off an arc would form for between the screw and the live causing a short circuit for a moment which caused the MCB to go with a bang when being turn off ( High inductive load on circuit board Fluorescent light. ) That was a long day but a good one when you find the fault.
Thanks for Sharing your story Jordan, it's definitely a lesson for new learners like me :)
I commented previously on this channel about my neighbours problem with his old fridge in his garage. It got changed. I suspect it was ice but could have been something else with the fridge. Put it down to experience...hindsight is a wonderful thing. Take it easy Jordan.
Edit...the power point was a single rather than double pole switch...neutral still connected unless unplugged... possibly intermittent fault.
👍😀
👍👍👍 well done Jordan another banger and like the honesty at the start.
Do what's best Quickly, and easiest installed. Very good to explain and show how to be successful. Thumb up! Cheer!
Lol, that’s first thing I do is unplug all the sockets too! Nothing wrong with that, Always start simple 👌
Honest video that. Totally agree with your thinking. I would of personally done the quick method
Stunning surroundings!!
Hello Sir, I have been an electrician for a long time. And I always start with the simplest thing when it comes to troubleshooting and most of the time the reasons for them were quite obvious.
Of course with the exceptions that are sometimes a headache ...
Go with your instinct, great honest video 👍
Charge the Doctor by the hour. No disaster, only a win all round. 👍
Go with your gut feeling Jordon,
I always bang test in those situations providing it’s a reasonable good Installation
The KISS principle is a good mantra.
Thanks for sharing 👍🏽
Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But we always learn from the experience. But don't beat yourself up over it.
We've all done it. I had a very similar issue in a large domestic kitchen. It turned out to be an old fridge that the customer had assured me everything was unplugged at my request before I arrived. Never take the customers word for it. I eventually looked at this fridge once I had exhausted everything else. When I asked the customer how he managed to move the fridge in the first place to unplug it he said that he didn't. He used a cane down the side of the fridge to flick the switch. So he hadn't unplugged it. He didn't think that unplugging or switching off would make any difference. Considering I was charging by the hour it was his loss at the end of the day.
unfortunately I think the fact there was other contractors onsite carrying out work that could have potentially damaged a cable, it kind of led you down the rabbit hole. I think my 1st thought would have been "I bet its something they've done"
I think if nobody was or had been there you would automatically think faulty appliance, then go down the route of unplug everything and plug back in 1 by 1 until you find the culprit.
Thanks for sharing 👍
The best way to fault finding is to rule out the obvious, gather as much information as possible and approach it in a systematic logical way. You did all of that. IR testing is all well and good but how many times have you come across accessories fitted in hidden places or even completely concealed which leads you down a blind alley. I’d have done what your instincts suggested, unplug first, rule out the obvious and most likely. Once you’ve exhausted that then start digging deeper! Great vids and good discussion points. 👍🏻
did a very similar thing myself a few weeks ago, on a safety critical railway signalling circuit, testing still showing a "false" short after replacing the faulty relay, i wish now i had just replaced the fuse, which was done several hours of delays later, but as you say as electricians that isn't how we were taught
i had a similar fault myself at home where the dishwasher tripped the RCD and I was going to go down the same avenue as you have.
I had a nuisance trip on an RCD a number of years ago. It would work fine for ages then trip every week to every other day. One Christmas it started to trip every day, so some serious fault finding was needed. Eventually traced it to the cellar ring main (where the consumer unit was also fitted) but everything tested reasonably, so I wired the RCD out, put the power on and waited. The central heating came on and there was a big bang as the boiler fan finally gave up the ghost. Fault traced. New fan took a week, so we had no heating over Christmas and the New Year. Not my wife's favourite person, fortunately we still had a solid fuel Aga at the time that did the hot water and kept the kitchen warm.
I do electronic servicing and just sometimes, _just sometimes_ you can't find the fault using proper diagnostics so after wasting a few hours you just ramp the current up and watch for the bang. This can cause damage but in your case it would have found the fault far quicker if you had gone with your first instinct and done the plug-in routine. Sometimes you have to go with your instincts, and you are experienced enough to know when to make that call safely. Anybody who comments to the contrary has probably not had those years of experience so would be happy just quoting the regs (!) Keep up the excellent work ;)
Well done Jordan, chasing faults is a pain & the bang test is sometimes the best & quickest way but can bugger up the breaker after too many go's, I was fitting alarms to new vaccine fridges at a hospital a few weeks ago, there are alarm connections on the back of them.
I’d always start with removing plugs before anything else. Being an electrician myself, I’m all to aware of other electricians coming out with “you should be doing this” type of comments. A quick overview of dates of install, last tests and any amendments can also help with what levels of investigation are needed
Feel your frustration here. I have been in the same situation and it was a socket and extension lead above a false ceiling with neons giving spurious readings,sometimes its just easier to unplug everything and go round plugging each item in.
Hi do it the way u feel is right and safe - fault finding a be such a pain but safety is paramount yeah. Stay safe keep up the good work.
Thanks Jordan
You win some, you lose some. Best approach undoubtedly varies depending upon circumstance and probability of faulting (from a non-spark, but one who has some electrical experience and knowledge).
I work in telecoms and data networking. Key thing when going to a site on a fault - listen to the customer but never believe them - they're either confused or lying to cover up their mistakes or to try and save money. I think House MD said "the patient always lies". Listen then recreate fault if possible and safe then fix it using logic and experience. Then bill the customer :-)
As you said it’s one of them thing. It does happen to the best of us. Don’t stress yourself.
What I really would like to ask you and the community is how much to charge for effectively unplugging the fridge as far as the customer is concerned.
Love coming home from my work find out not the only one haha
Amen to that mate 🤝
Hello. Nice informative videos.. I had a very similar case last February with a difference kitchen sockets tripping randomly. Two electricians could not find the fault. Said it could be mice chewed cable. The third electrician noticed the central heating boiler in the kitchen has a switched socket to turn boiler off.. Turned out to be the two port valve on the central heating. As it was opening and closing was tripping. Interesting one for you
Was this a Monday service call.? I hate Monday calls! Hehehee. You were being cautious my man. Proud of ya!
Jordan, don’t stress about it, I’ve had those jobs too but what will happen now is you will go to a job thinking it’s going to be a nightmare but will have it sorted in five minutes😀😀. Just seems to be how it works out. Great VLogs👍👍
Cheers!
A bit if a tricky one. You've tested the IR at the plug end of each appliance and the IR of the circuit. All fine.
But then it was a faulty appliance after all (with perhaps a bad compressor).. Very frustrating.
Probably one of the most useful videos from a UA-cam electrician. Sure you could have found the fault quicker, but at least now you know the circuit inside out and you don't have to worry about them blaming you if something else goes wrong as you've done everything you can to make sure that circuit is still fit for use after it was overloaded. Might be worth an earth leakage test with everything plugged in if you haven't already. Try to offer as much info to the customer as you can that's relevant to them, perhaps suggest some ways of preventing a reoccurrence and help them try to hold the fridge manufacturer to account then the time you spent checking everything over may end up being time well spent. Anyway, really glad you shared this, keep up the great work!
Thanks a lot!
I would have pulled out devices from sockets and then swt power back on ,
Then go round putting plugs back in and set on socket.
Feel for you,pain in the you now what.
Keep up the good work
Just subscribed mate as I'm interested in your Tesla side of things but am an amatuer electrician as have done my own domestic stuff but that's a far as I goes, found it interesting to listen to your experience on this job and that's the way it goes sometimes..we move on and learn from it..keep up the good work .😉
Thanks!
How many times have we been there 😂. I never understood why the process should be testing first. Fair enough if you find that an appliance is faulty then still test the circuit afterwards to confirm, but in this case that would still have meant a long process unless you spotted the fused spur.
I dare say this isn't the first time and it sure as hell won't be the last that an outlet of some sort hides from you.
Great video as always. Nice to see your upfront and honest. We all know things don't always go to plan.
I do complex fault finding on controls and 3 phase and in the real world you have to fault find live most of the time otherwise you'll never find the fault, I feel your pain. I've been in exactly the same situation in fault finding and now would always take the most direct route of process of elimination, but well done for trying the correct route 🙂
It happens to us all ... sometimes we all over comulcate things. It’s in our nature .
Real world scenarios, more of these should be filmed instead of just the good stuff. Some people will start to think sparkying is a glamorous life 🤣
You did the right thing.
Now you are in a position to explain to your customer, all the possible reasons that beaker can trip.. even through a fault in one of the doctor's office examination light... You have a complete image of the situation. By unplugging everything out and plugging the loads one by one, sure you would have found the faulty freezer faster... but then you should still decide if the whole circuit is safe for use.
It's a matter of experience on a new way of trouble shooting (if you are not accustomed to troubleshoot via measurements)
The next time you use the same teqnique, you will suspect faster what is going on.
There is no way a 20Ω resistance across L and N would trip the breaker instantly. Even a 10A B type MCB would require less than 10Ω restive load to trip instantly.
An inductive load would show also low DC resistance. So the actual measurement you took is a telltale sign that it's just one more load on the line that you haven't figured out yet.
All in all. I find it absurd that vaccines of great value are stored in freezers that get powered from a single MCB that also powers other parts of the building... Then again ring circuits are not allowed where I live.
I had the impression that appliances sockets in UK had their own fuse. Shouldn't every fridge have it's own e.g. 13A fuse? Is it expected from the 32A ring MCB to protect the appliance from an internal short?
i have found when the compressors go faulty in a fridge this will cause a mcb or a rcbo to trip
I always start with the unplug/plugin method, then I do the testing if I have no joy.. it’s basic but can save so much time..
If the fridge has an electronic thermostat, it will delay powering the compressor for anything from a few seconds to a few minutes depending on how its programmed, and the compressor is the most likely faulty component to cause the breaker to trip.
Do not worry about that, it's coming every one.
Relax and thinking another think.
A favourite Churchill quote of mine "The maxim 'Nothing avails but perfection' may be spelt shorter: 'Paralysis.'" applies methinks.
I'd have probably unplugged everything and earth loop for a modicum of safety and then just tried plugging things in..
the bang test has solved me many a problem in the passed. but if im in a location where i might get embrassed with a bang i hook the circuit up to a rcbo so the bang isnt so loud, more just a little pop
😂
I fit out pharmacies and labs. That vaccine fridge should have a temperature log and alarm with dial up to meet code. We always put them on individual circuits with warning labels at the board.
You get days like that, just need the practical head on sometimes,
I went to replace a kitchen socket for a relative once and it looked like a simple job,just replace a cracked socket .I checked the continuity before putting the new socket on and there was open circuit on the neutral,I checked all of the kitchen sockets all OK .It was one socket in the hallway which was on the kitchen ring which needed tightening up .I was there for a couple of hours,very frustrating,no such thing as a 5 minute job .It's the little things that can cause the big problems sometimes.
Commiserations chap. Sometimes we get days like this. My money was on finding a heater plugged in somewhere when you said 26 ohms, but if that examination light was tungsten then that also sounds about the right cold resistance value.
Difficult one, because a similar argument could be PAT test each appliance to check for issues however as you dsid if it was a wiring issue this would have wasted time, sometimes your own engineering judgment for a specific job is usually the best way to go
It happens to us all mate, don’t be too hard on yourself. It’s easy to think about it after of what we could of done. You can only deal with what’s in front of you at the time.
personally (from a non sparkie pov) i think unplug/replug first then test each socket once the appliances haven't recreated the fault. kind of end to end testing (thats how i used to do electronic servicing, start at this side, then that side slowly testing one thing at a time from side to side to locate the faulty component(s), but in this case it would be plug one thing in, turn on etc until the breaker pops)
well done not loosing the plot! thank god it wasnt anything wiring wise!
Sanity check usually comes first - unplug everything & re-energise. If the breaker goes again it is a wiring issue or there is still something attached, if not a quick walk around to look for any neons or unexpected appliances being on. Next step is to check each appliance one by one, often do this via a "PAT" test box. Obviously if the site looks a bit dodgy from the start then the IR test might be a more appropriate girl test.
As for the vaccine fridges I would recommend using GSM Temperature alarms & ideally put each fridge on a separate circuit so the failure of one does not take them all out.
Listen don’t be so hard on yourself. We are all learning each day. There isn’t anybody who hasn’t done similar things that you did. You just learn from them and move on . John
Hi, the question l have to ask you is l don't fully understand if there was a fault with the refrigerator and it was connected through a fused plug why didn't the fuse blow? It almost sounds like there was a fault with the plug itself before the plug fuse or socket outlet to of tripped the mcb.Very interesting and intriguing.
Don't be hard on yourself, if there had been an accurate circuit design, you would have picked up the fuse spur. Insulation testing the unloaded circuit is the right thing to do before re-enabling it then add adding load (until it trips).
Totally agree with you on that. Short cutted in the past by unplugging everything and re energizing the circuit which has proven to be a good choice on many occasions. Seeing as it was a dental surgery Jordan made the right choice even though to some it may seem arse about face.
Those fused spurs (often hidden) can be a nuisance 🤦♂️
I would off done the same unplug it all etc , love your new nose
Unless the installation is properly documented, this sort of struggle will always prevail. When doing an EICR I make a point of providing a comprehensive schedule, with details of Circuit/Room/Accessory/Lamp. It then makes this kind of thing so much easier, no matter whether it's you or another guy who's there next. It also helps to talk customers through identifying faults, for example if you're on away or self-isolating...
Had that scenario loads of times - at the end of the day you found the fault for them - ok not as quick as you could have found it but now it’s sorted. Had a similar job a few years back where an outside light was fed via a spur under a sink. The light had filled with water - I was there about 2 hours. But in the end I solved the problem so it’s a good day
Some days you’re the fly and other days you’re the windscreen 🤪
Is it really a good way to find the faulty appliance to rely on the MCB to trip when you plug that appliance? Aren't there some kind of portable testing devices that you insert between the wall plug and the appliance, with much more sensitive fault detection built-in?
Ohms Law! When getting the reading of 26 ohms with the fused switch connection unit quick ohms law would show that it would be roughly 8 amps of current which would be suitable.
A- N insulation testing in this situation would be pointless as Meg Ohms would mean small currents would flow not enough to trip an MCB. IR testing is best between A-E and N-E and then you don't have to worry about damaging electronics too
At least they know that part of their electrics are thoroughly tested. Test easy way first, verify and remove fault, then insulation tests for peace of mind? Like that you show good day and bad, we all have them. Also like production style, clean, not a lot of flash, (no pun intended), and no drama.
Hi,
My heart goes out to you,
You should have followed your instincts and do the job as you have been doing (like me) .
I would not worry about what the others say or do , your experience is your guide here ; as always say follow your guts .
Well at lest you won’t take that road again (I hope) , even if the book says otherwise .
I follow your work very closely and I think you’re a cut above the rest . 👍
I am an old time sparky , I have worked on LV and HV in other countries, now retired but still keep my hand 🤚 in.
From Cold Staffordshire,
David Malik
Easy with hindsight but I may have taken some ir readings before unplugging everything
I’ve had done exactly the same as what you were going to do in the first place 🙂👍 On yea and not mentioned it on UA-cam 😜
follow your own instinct and experience young jedi trust in yourself :-) great video
I sometimes feel like this after diagnosing / fixing problems. Hindsight is always 20/20. Trust your gut, you have many years of experience. A job like this will only reinforce that your original method was better / faster. As far as billing the customer, I feel your time is valuable. Easy problem or not, it still took the time that it did to find the issue and no one can say they could have done it better or faster. They called you for a reason.
My old boss used to say 'try the simple things first', and it is always the best way in my opinion. We live in the real world. Keyboard warriors do not!
We have all been there, looking for something more complicated than it actually is.