So which is better? Seestar or Dwarf III? Let's go into the details! Also note that since filming, mosaic mode has been made available to the Dwarf III, although I haven't tested it yet! And ZWO is now officially working on equatorial mode for the S30/S50! My Patreon: www.patreon.com/cuivlazygeek My Merch Store: cuiv.myspreadshop.com/ For any affiliate link purchases, make sure to accept cookies if prompted! Also, browser plugin "Honey" may steal commissions from creators if you interact with it (even just clicking on "OK" to the "No coupons found" message)! Dwarf III Smart Telescope: bit.ly/3SyChXu (Dwarflab) or bit.ly/3B7aA3v (HPS) or tinyurl.com/y5r2pyjr (All Star Telescope) Get the Seestar S30: tinyurl.com/4yzvuzje or tinyurl.com/yfkawdd9 (ZWO) or bit.ly/3O7WvGc (Agena) or bit.ly/4hJ79AN (HPS) or tinyurl.com/3nznjk96 (FLO) or tinyurl.com/24xek2tz (Astroshop EU) or tinyurl.com/2kzy93v9 (All Star Telescope) Seestar S50 Smart Telescope: tinyurl.com/43r5pd6y (ZWO) or bit.ly/49mQhLJ (Agena) or bit.ly/45k7J1b (HPS) or tinyurl.com/2zanj43e (FLO) or tinyurl.com/227p6h97 (Astroshop EU) or tinyurl.com/b6ekdycr (All Star Telescope) S50 vs S30 video: ua-cam.com/video/FgLBgWchWVY/v-deo.html D3 Planning mode video: ua-cam.com/video/0mQcl-vPz_E/v-deo.html D3 Equatorial mode video: ua-cam.com/video/0PTNhz0dCQI/v-deo.html Amazon affiliate: amzn.to/49XTx01 Agena affiliate: bit.ly/3Om0hNG High Point Scientific affiliate: bit.ly/3lReu8R First Light Optics affiliate: tinyurl.com/yxd2jkr2 All-Star Telescope affiliate: bit.ly/3SCgVbV Astroshop eu Affiliate: tinyurl.com/2vafkax8
@@luboinchina3013 and you will take a very high rejection rate and Will late a lot in completing the mosaic due to the terrible spiral way It performs mosaics
Thanks for the detailed comparison Cuiv! My Dwarf 3 was delivered yesterday, and it looks like there is a 5 hour window of clear skies over northern England tonight, ready for a 1st light test!
Cuiv, there’s much hard work gone into making a really super video here showing all the many variations between the two makes of Smart telescope. Thanks! Last night was first light for my Dwarf 3 and the dwarf app and D3 performance was even better than I expected it to be and produced a very good picture of the Pleiades cluster with lots of nebulosity round the main stars after 2.5 hrs of exposure. It was a very enjoyable experience and I was so pleased at how well the app and telescope look after the user throughout the capture. It was worth the long wait of 6 long months to get it! Incidentally I updated the app recently but haven’t seen the mosaic mode yet that you mentioned above.
Thanks Cuiv. I bow to your vast knowledge & always find your videos highly informative & entertaining. I don't think there is a smart telescope review of yours I haven't seen, some more than once.
I ordered my Dwarf 3 early September. The more and more I watched good people like yourself, I cancelled my order. I got my money back from Dwarflab within 20 minutes. The Dwarf 3 is amazing, but two reasons made me change my mind. One I actually like the smaller f.o.v and with the mosaic mode you can get a larger f.o.v . The Dwarf 3 will never be able to have a smaller f.o.v. Two I don't think my order and this is my fault, not Dwarflabs would be delivered until at least February and all of you guys producing great youtube videos and images made me want a scope in my hand now. Unfortunately, the weather hasn't played ball since delivery, but I have some good images with minimal time and data. I am happy with my Seestar S50 and I believe people who own a Dwarf 3 will be equally happy.
@anarkicio ummmm I have stated what where?. I'll have my Seestar for nearly 3 months before I would receive my Dwarf3. Life is short and the reason I caved and changed to a Seestar S50 is that.
Awesome as always! Lazy Geek has been my guiding light in the journey from zero to astrophotography, even though I’m still a beginner. Using tools like the Dwarf2 and now the Dwarf3 - as shown in the video compared to more 'point-and-shoot' setups - is truly educational! You can definitely move on to more complex setups, whether refractors or reflectors, but mastering the fundamentals (alignment, calibration, focus, sensor management, and especially PROCESSING with specific software like Siril and PixInsight) is pure gold in terms of learning! So, hats off to the Dwarf for making all of this possible, and I’m sure even the more traditional systems will increasingly adopt automation, electronics, and AI agents as support tools!
Great video and insight on both devices. Each one scratches an itch. Just have to support one (or both) and understand the limitations and be encouraged they are constantly improving features.
Great job as usual! Our club now has 5 members with Seestar. It’s great for public outreach. I worried that people would just think you looked up a picture on the internet. But actually people, esp kids, are so eager to look at a cell phone and you know they can actually see it, unlike an eyepiece. So as it builds you can point out the features it stacks. So eyeballs are for planets, smart telescopes are for the faint fuzzys.
you know, I ordered mine in September, I also have a seestar. I love my seestar and I just really wanted more but without spending so much money. in specs the dwarf 3 is better but not in the fine detail they don't add. optics mainly, I canceled my order and bought a asi533mc pro, I am starting to get my astro rig together redcat51, asi533mc pro, asiairplus, and a lttle more. I think a seestar is a amazing gateway to the hobby for people who dont want to spend a grand for a astro rig. and Cuiv, I thank you so much for all your amazing videos, from smart telescopes to NINA to pixinsight you have been a amazing help and I always recommend you to people who want to learn.
Having done the big full eq set up, with different size scopes from the sharpstar 61, up to the 140, with filter wheels etc. I can see the attraction of the Dwarf labs. Now I have limited time & room to have a full set up, after watching a lot of reviews, I've made my mind up to buy the DL3. Thanks for all of your reviews.
My S50 arrives today, UPS willing. I had an S30 on pre-order but the combination of wanting a telescope to use during my winter break, the current 10% discount on the S50, and your comparision video of the S30 and S50 pushed me into cancelling the pre-order and ordering the S50. I'm sure I'd like any of them but thanks for helping me make my decision. (I can kind of imagine getting a Dwarf III at some point, too.)
I have had the S50 for about 4 months and love it. I love a lot of the qualities of the Dwarf 3, mainly EQ mode. For me the price is reasonable so I decided to own both. I placed an order for the Dwarf 3 about 6 weeks ago
Brilliant comparison across the board - it’s easy to see how difficult it is to choose only one! 😂 I’ve got experimentation to do with both devices - planning mode with DWARF 3 and mosaic mode with S50! ❤️🔭
I have had the S50 for 10 months and couldn’t be happier with this amazing scope - amd I hadn’t heard before that ZWO are actively developing EQ mode which is great news. I am sure that users of the D3 will be equally happy with their choice. It is so exciting to see this field developing so rapidly, it will be incredible what will be available in say 5 years time.
Probably the most valuable info provided to me was the differences in s/n in mosaic mode, although I don’t have the s50, I use mosaic exclusively with my vespera and I don’t think I appreciated the impact on surrounding nebulosity…. But did note the difference when taking photos of same target with the dwarf 3 in eq mode. Dwarf 3 was clearly showing more of the outer bands of Triangulum faster and I did not really understand why… now I know
@@mercury7 could someone use mosaic several times to increase the “sweet spot” of the S50? Simply reorient the center of the image each mosaic and then stitch them together in post? It would increase the field of view as well?
@@realgoose I’m not positive how the Seestar works but on vespera it does count the number of passes, so at the end of the first pass the image is complete but you can continue for as many passes as you want… so eventually the outer third will enjoy the same snr as the inner third…. Just takes a while
Another extremely informative and well presented video. As you mention, just now it's a bit of a question as to what you can get. My first smart scope was a Celestron Origin (much more expensive, of course, and less portable), which I bought basically because one was in stock at a local scope shop. I have now finally obtained an S50, but I haven't had the chance to try it yet (no clear skies). As you note, the Dwarf 3 is on backorder everywhere. I can't observe from home (totally overhung with trees), so I have to go out into the country to work (mostly in frigid temperatures - Canada). This means that a planning mode is basically useless to me, as I'm always going to be out in the middle of nowhere with the scope, and I can't leave it. This will also make using the mosaic mode difficult, as it generates much more overhead in the capture time, which is rather grueling for me (but not as much as manually guiding, which I used to do). I'm really looking forward to trying the S50, and the info that you have provided will really help me. Meanwhile I'm processing what data I've managed to capture with the Origin, and waiting for some clear skies. I would like to try the Dwarf 3 as well, when it becomes available again. The S30 I wouldn't get myself... but I would recommend it, for example, to friends and family, especially those with children, as perhaps the best cheap introduction to astronomy (though I'm also a big fan of working binoculars).
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Hard to answer shortly. I'm definitely happy that I bought it. The F2.2 6" RASA tube can capture decent details quite quickly in a fairly dark sky. I do have to take it out to a remote site to work, and it's a bit heavy and awkward to manage for me at my age (72), especially in frigid Canadian Winter weather. I had some difficulty getting the Wifi to work properly; Celestron support did help me with that, and I ended up switching from Android to Apple, and adding a third party Wifi aerial to the scope (an option mentioned in an Appendix of the manual). So, I'd give it a thumbs up overall, but it's less something for beginners than the S50 (but at that price, I guess it's not meant to be). Would be great for demonstrations though.
@@CuivTheLazyGeekI hope. Reached out to Dwarflabs. Originally was supposed to be early this month. Now it maybe here in January. Chomping at the bit to give it a try. Right now living vicariously through all the review videos 😂
Hey Cuiv, I see that you have the Astrophotography Manual! Hoping to get this for Christmas so hopefully it's a good book. Great video as always and hope you're keeping well.
I'm actually using the Dwarf 3 these days as I received It late Nov. I've owned the Seestar S50 for just over a year. I think you highlighted the difference, strengths and weaknesses and agree with your presentation. I do wish the Seestar would add the schedule to its software. I love the schedule feature with the D3. Thank you again for this video!!!
Great video! Thanks for the info. I have an S50 & I was thinking about buying a Dwarf3 to test out. I also wanted to use the Dwarf3's tracking feature to record video (from a high vantage point) in places where I can't fly a drone like US & Canadian National Parks
True! I don't really have the experience to test such video features, I think most people in National Parks use long poles/monopods with 360 cameras for a "drone-ish" look
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I have an Insta360 that I have used in that way, but I am trying to cut down on carrying too many devices to the parks (especially when I'm on an ebike). An astro telescope/terrestrial tracking camera combo seems like a good idea to me (too bad the Dwarf3 doesn't have a mic port)
Awesome video, Cuiv, as always. 👏 I ordered Drwaf 3 a while ago precisely because of its portability. It’s supposed to arrive tomorrow. By the way, if you don’t mind sharing, what’s the book (Astrophotography Manual) you have by the table?
Despite the pros and cons in regards to optics, software etc. for me (as also being an owner of the Dwarf 2 and a "real" Celestron SCT with an Astro Cam ;-) ) the advantage of the Dwarf 3 is the portability: It's very small and light compared to the S50, it fits easily into your hand luggage during a flight, so you can take it everywhere easily - and it still produces pictures at least comparable to much bigger, more expensive, not-so-easy to handle "serious" telescope systems 😃🔭🌠
I was initially (when looking at all these kinds of reviews) going for S50, but I'm liking the fact that you have more choice with Dwarf3..and if you want more detail..just do more nights to stack the results!
I have a dwarf 3 being delivered tomorrow and I have a question based on my experience as a photographer. Do you think you could get more details to show from the dwarf 3 if you shot several sessions and made adjustments to the gain? Coming from a photography background I'm thinking along the lines of HDR photography where you can pick up details in highlights and shadows just by stacking several shots taken at different shutter speeds or changes to ISO. BTW loved all your videos covering these smart scopes
I sold my S50, as I prefer the dwarf 3. Field of view, eq mode, and I have the zwo asi678 camera for my planetary imaging on my other scopes and really like it. And the dwarf is fun to use! 😊
@@mgscheue i agree , i also think the D3 has far more to offer and hits the mark , i cant wait to get mine but i only ordered it yesterday , i might get it by xmas in a years time haha
I had the Dwarf 3 since 10 days now and I absolutely love it. I had the Dwarf 2 and it was a not brainer immediate upgrade when it was out in pre-sale. Now it also has mosaic mode and it works very well. For the size, the quality and the features the Dwarf 3 has absolutely no competitors at the moment. I can easily put it in my backpack along with a small tripod and take images from wherever I want. Just so cool
It might make some small progress, but it will never reach the level of details of the S50, simply due to Dawes limit and pixel scale. With some manual drizzle stacking it could get close though
I am waiting Christmass to pointing my S50. I am waiting for my D3 maybe in January. Thanks you for pointing at the interesting features in images. You mentionned something about the color calibration that I have not really understood. Could you explain how the colors are obtained in this kind of telescope, I mean how works the filter(s).
It's about color balance: you have processes that can analyze the stars, compare them to their known spectra, and can adjust the color balance of the whole image so that the colors are as close to reality as possible. But you'll still get good color images without that process
Hi Cuiv. I think if I buy one of these, I will go for the Dwarf Lab III for the same reasons that you give and also I already have an EQ Red Cat 51 grab and go set up that will do everything that the S50 can do ( though of course it did cost me considerably more money ). I really liked those images from the Dwarf III, especially the Christmas Tree cluster with the Cone Nebula, like you say for the money you can't argue with the result. Clear Skies.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I think I will get one in April as birthday present to myself haha, I am currently taken mosaic of horsehead and flame nebula before the clouds roll in been terrible last month in north England thick clouds all night with odd hour gap at stupid o'clock
After the Dwarf 2, it was clear to me that I had to buy the successor, the Dwarf 3. It arrived roughly six months later. Since then, there has only been one clear night. So, I’m hoping for better weather to make use of all the amazing features.
I have a DWARF III on pre-order, my first smart telescope. The capture detail of the S50 is a little superior it appears, but the two killer features I went for in the DWARF are it's compactness & out of the box landscape mode which I much prefer to the S50s portrait mode. To add to that, equatorial mode which probably nailed my decision.
Cuiv, I have the S50, the D3 and the D2. I often take out the Seestar S50 and the Dwarf 3 at the same time to capture different objects, and sometimes, the same objects. BTW, after the DwarfLabs update, the Dwarf 3 now has mosaic mode, and it works quite differently from the Seestar's approach.
Enjoyed that review Cuiv, most will go for the Dwarf 3 because of its portability but as a large Dobsonian light bucket owner I have no issues with the S50, especially as my main interest will be deep sky objects, I think that for the fuzzies out there the Seestar is possibly better, you might give your opinion, I have a Dwarf 3 on order but might just wait and see what Seestar comes up with next, I'm so envious of the software processing that you people have mastered.. Charles
My three hours PixInsight course on UA-cam would put you on the same processing level ;) Overall for small faint fuzzies (planetary nebulae, galaxies) the S50 is better, for larger faint fuzzies the D3 is considerably better!
Both look amazing and the review gives a great insight into the pros and cons of both devices. I have a Atik428ex and a canon 300mm lens on an astrotrack currently. It's great but takes time to setup up and this is something I have so little of. I have a rural bortle 4 site but the weather is awful so, I have just ordered the S50 and it is the easiest to operate. I may go for the vesprera at some point but the D3 also looks amazing for the price and the FOV is large If seestar can get an easy EQ mode, then they will nail it too.
I've had my S50 for just over a year and I'm very happy with it: despite the British weather giving me relatively few opportunities to use it. And if as mentioned below, they are working on an EQ mode, then I won't be considering buying anything else?
Ont the D3 list myself (Jan25? Delivery). Have been using the delay to gain familiarity with the processing software using files provided online. I believe another short coming of the S50/S30 alt-azimuth mount is it may have more difficulty shooting near the Zenith which would add another factor to observation scheduling.
Obviously, I need to buy both… Ha ha😅! I f the three I think the dwarf three would be my choice because of portability and field rotation. I do still wonder if they have a mega dwarf in planning… but the dwarf three would balance against a planetary rig very well. Merry Christmas Cuiv.
20 years ago I clocked a lot of telescope time at the WIYN 0.9 m at Kitt Peak in grad school. All of my telescopes since then have been very low tech. These little machines seem like a chance to revisit my past. At least they don’t require LN2 cooling. Thanks for the information. I think I’d opt for the Seestar, I did a lot of mosaic imaging back then.
Yes if for a small target at the center of FOV that you will crop down to in the end, No in pretty much every other case (where 1.1x mosaic will help avoid field rotation)
Nice vid as usual. I ordered an S50 as I think it’s easier for demonstration purposes. BTW. What is the book on the left side of you - visible at the video.
Half way through..what about tripods...presumably having the small legs that is included in SeeStar's granted..means you need a table? Where as the Dwarf needs a seperate tripod but makes it easier to site anywhere, even in a field? Does the SeeStar attach to a tripod?
Thanks and great comparison, I opt for S30 for its price $350 vs S50 $450 for 2024 holiday price vs $500+ for dwarf 3, I’m completely new to this hobby so I want to get it cheap, beside software and image quality, S30 is smaller than S50 but it also has two lenses for landscaping mode for tracking animal, cars etc during hiking near city, drawf 3 also has it plus it has a panorama photo mode which Seestar doesn’t offer at all, but the higher price, availability and ease of use pushes me to Seestar S30
To quote someone I know, I'm kinda lazy. For me, it all comes down to time. How much time do I spend to get the acceptable level of quality image for each capture. The extreme is saving a multi hour/day single image and processing it in picsinsight using all available options. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Environment(the sky's), hardware, software(HW firmware, post processing) and time. I'm an old guy that accepts my physical limitations. My one and only S50 works for me. Great compare. Thank you.
I have been thinking about a smart scope from before the Dwarf 2 was launched. I think I'm gonna take the leap and get a Dwarf 3. I have a nice woodland area out my back where I can also use it for non astro stuff 👍👍
yeh thats awesome to be able to capture birds and deer ect and track them , i sold my HEQ5pro mount to fund the dwarf and although i havent got it yet i already know i made the right choice
Fantastic comparison. Are you able to make sample JPG's available from this video? I'm strongly considering the D3 over the S50 and the 3 night stacks were very intriguing. Thanks!
Salut Cuiv! So far, I've been thrilled with my S50, both from light polluted SF Bay Area; and our summer cabin in Colorado at 2940m, Bortle 2 (sometimes even 1). I was tempted to add a Dwarf 3, but now I'll just wait to see how the ongoing "battle of the software updates" is going--it's an affordable way for both ZWO and DwarfLabs to continue competing. (I also have a C11 with astro modified Canon DSLR, but until I can pour a concrete pier my deck is too unstable for photography--at higher power I can see my heartbeat in the scope.)
I feel you on the heartbeat, when doing visual I had learned to have as slow of a heartbeat as possible, and to breathe deeply and slowly! s50 from B2 sounds amazing!
I own both, I rarely (if ever), use the Seestar. If I want better optics, I use my ,main astro rig. The Equatorial mode, portability and yes the software make the Dwarf3 a more enjoyable tool, and being able to use one of my good Camera Tripods and heads with it make it a no brainer for me to carry with my camera bag,
I love my Dwarf2 and I hope thed Dwarf3 will be even better (when it arrives, at least!). But I like the better resolution of Seestar: I'm waiting for an updated one to have even more differences with Dwarf (a slightly larger aperture and focal lenght to capture all those smaller objects the D3 struggles with)
Hi Cuiv I like your smart scope reviews but you look on them for purely AP point of view. I and many others don't do AP but rather EAA - as 2nd best to visual in light polluted areas. One of the critical parameters of any EAA tool is the time needed to extract details. For me ideally is point and start observing within seconds or tens of seconds. I rarely stay on one object more than few minutes - since I prefer to observe more objects. The most time I spend on one object was 10min on Veil. Can you please to comparison from this point of view? Lets say what image I can get after 30s, 1min, 5min or 10min. And I assume there will be a significant difference. Thanks a lot!
I'll see what I can do! In effect the AP POV actually gives you a serious hint about the EAA POV - any differences seen with AP will be starker in EAA. For EAA I would say the D3 is the winner
Once one of them brings out at least a 90mm, I may be very tempted to sell up on my current set up, being an EQ6-Pro coupled with a Skywatcher Explorer 190MN DS Pro Maksutov as well as other ancillaries needed! I mentioned beforehand on your posts that these units are becoming so good and so portable with a lot less physical and mental hassle than setting up the above. I cannot believe what modern technology has brought to the forefront as this would never have even been considered when I started astronomy, in fact that was the days of film camera if you wanted to dare try astrophotography.
The S50 is $50 less right now, available now, and comes with a tripod (the one sold by Dwarf Lab is $79.00). The only feature that I really want that the Seestar doesn't have is scheduling and I hope that ZWO eventually adds it to the app. I don't think that there would be a hardware limitation.
I know the Dwarf 3 will be the obvious winner over the S30, but any chance you're going to make a video with side by side comparisons of images taken at the same time from each one? Portability is a huge factor for me, so I probably won't go for the S50, and I'm just wondering if it's worth it to spend the extra $250+ CAD on the Dwarf 3 if the S30 will provide good enough results for a beginner like me.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Oh, is that actually planned or just on your wishlist? That would make a huge difference if it's something they're planning on adding.
Great video, thanks for posting. I’m not sure I fully understood the section around the saved stacks. Technically, I’m not an astrophotographer but rather I do EAA (electronically assisted astronomy) and therefore I don’t do any post processing. For me, it’s all about how good the view is after just several minutes of stacking/livestacking. I’m looking for a wide field option to compliment my CPC1100 with an ASI533MC Pro with various focal reducers. How are both sets of software in terms of stretching, applying darks, etc while you are stacking? Do you have an opinion as to which smart telescope would work best for EAA?
Hi Cuiv, I have the older Dwarf 2, which I love, and I can't justify upgrading to the 3, just yet. But it is so easy to use... I have a Meade, and Celestron, a 6 inch and a 4.5 inch goto's. They give much better views, once they were set up (especially planets of course). But... I can have the Dwarf 2 viewing in minutes, with multiple targets set up in the schedule, while I'm still getting my other scopes set up. Also, with the very patchy weather we have in England, with a cloudy sky with clear sky occasionally, I can chance it, and put the Dwarf out. Which I won't bother to do with my other telescopes, unless I Know, that I'll get at least a couple of hours of clear skies. I'm just to lazy.
I don't think it's possible, they would need to make it so the lens has a larger aperture, otherwise it will be meaningless, as it's already hitting the physical resolution limits of the optics...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek In photography it's possible to add a x2 or x3 magnifier to pretty much any lens. I did this with the most recent solar eclipse with great results. It is possible to add a magnifier to an iPhone's camera. It should be possible to do the same thing to the Dwarf III.
@@realgoose of course, but what I'm saying is that it wouldn't add more details, because you are already hitting the Dawes limit of the optics for the 35mm aperture size - so no matter how much your increase the focal length, you won't get much more details due to light diffraction!
In Europe, the pricing is a bit different I think. If pricing on the dwarf 3 is about the same as the dwarf 2 was, the dwarf 3 will be about €550. The seastar s50 is €720 and the s30 is €550. If that is the case, the dwarf 3 might be just as expensive as the s30. To bad I can’t find it anywhere available with pricing right now.
S30 is available for 480, should get there next two weeks. D3 will be more than that around 650 im guessing, wont have a tripod and most of all has a 18 weeks wait...
Grand merci pour cette comparaison, mon cœur balance plus du cotée DWarflab 3 que j'ai d'ailleurs en possession mais pas encore eu l'occasion de le testé vue la météo que nous avons actuellement. 😉
Why did you forget to take the same photos with the SeeStar S30 and compare them with the other two? I'm curious if it was a bad idea to order a SeeStar S30.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks for the answer Cuiv. However, I would prefer to see the output from when all three had been working on the same object for a certain period of time. When you show output from different objects, created at different times, there are too many unknown parameters mixed into the comparison.
Which is better? 12x10 sec sec exposures or 1x120sec exposure? I'd imagine the former. In that case an equatorial mount with 35mm is poorer than 50mm on an altazimuth mount. But the software on the Dwarf 3 sounds better. I wonder if a Seestar 50 s2 is coming soon!
12x10 seconds will result in much less noise. The averaging performed during stacking is actually advantageous in that regard. A single 120s exposure will suffer from field rotation and if the tracking is not perfectly bang on you've a high likelihood of star trails/misshappened stars. So personally... i'd go multi-exposure over duration if I had to make that choice.
That's a complex question whose answer is "It depends". Mostly on the sky glow flux in the image (which is determined by light pollution, target altitude, focal ratio, and filter used) and on the sensor read noise. In darker areas or in narrowband (even in brighter areas), 1x120s is typically considerably better. But this assumes good tracking of course (and equatorial mode). As long as you have good tracking and you don't saturate the sensor, longer exposures won't perform worse than shorter exposures, and often will perform better (again depending on the factors above)!
Just a curiosity, with the s50 you're shooting in mosaic mode probably at 2x. Don't you have to be shooting 4 times longer with the s50 to compare the actual overall exposures?
I would go for the better optics of the S50 and would hope, that it's mechanics can hande an equatorial operation and that such mode comes with a future firmware update.
Okay, we can get nice Pictures with the Dwarf when we want Pictures of large Objekts. But what is with smaller Objekts like M27, M51. Could we get them with S50 and the Dwarf?
WOW thanks so much Cuiv ive been so waiting for this video , funny enough yesterday i finally took the plunge and ordered the D3 then today you posted this video and at first i was worried about watching it after committing to buying the D3 , but i click play whilst hiding behind my pillow with one eye looking at the screen 🙈😂 As the video was playing both eyes started watching and i super pleased to say i am SOOOOOO glad i chose the D3 , your images are amazing Cuiv 10000000% it really blows the mind what these scopes can do / give it a couple years and i can see Dwarf will have autoguiding built in , and who knows one day it could even give current conventional scopes a run for their money REALLY exciting times , thanks again bud 🙏🙏🙏
So which is better? Seestar or Dwarf III? Let's go into the details!
Also note that since filming, mosaic mode has been made available to the Dwarf III, although I haven't tested it yet!
And ZWO is now officially working on equatorial mode for the S30/S50!
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Dwarf III Smart Telescope: bit.ly/3SyChXu (Dwarflab) or bit.ly/3B7aA3v (HPS) or tinyurl.com/y5r2pyjr (All Star Telescope)
Get the Seestar S30: tinyurl.com/4yzvuzje or tinyurl.com/yfkawdd9 (ZWO) or bit.ly/3O7WvGc (Agena) or bit.ly/4hJ79AN (HPS) or tinyurl.com/3nznjk96 (FLO) or tinyurl.com/24xek2tz (Astroshop EU) or tinyurl.com/2kzy93v9 (All Star Telescope)
Seestar S50 Smart Telescope: tinyurl.com/43r5pd6y (ZWO) or bit.ly/49mQhLJ (Agena) or bit.ly/45k7J1b (HPS) or tinyurl.com/2zanj43e (FLO) or tinyurl.com/227p6h97 (Astroshop EU) or tinyurl.com/b6ekdycr (All Star Telescope)
S50 vs S30 video: ua-cam.com/video/FgLBgWchWVY/v-deo.html
D3 Planning mode video: ua-cam.com/video/0mQcl-vPz_E/v-deo.html
D3 Equatorial mode video: ua-cam.com/video/0PTNhz0dCQI/v-deo.html
Amazon affiliate: amzn.to/49XTx01
Agena affiliate: bit.ly/3Om0hNG
High Point Scientific affiliate: bit.ly/3lReu8R
First Light Optics affiliate: tinyurl.com/yxd2jkr2
All-Star Telescope affiliate: bit.ly/3SCgVbV
Astroshop eu Affiliate: tinyurl.com/2vafkax8
A friendly tip for SeestarS50: If you want to avoid ugly corners, do live stack in mosaic mode 1.1x instead of standard 1x mode
@@luboinchina3013 and you will take a very high rejection rate and Will late a lot in completing the mosaic due to the terrible spiral way It performs mosaics
I couldn't decide in favour of one. I bought both. Thank for your nice video.
Hahaha, when in doubt, just get both, I like it!
Thanks for the detailed comparison Cuiv! My Dwarf 3 was delivered yesterday, and it looks like there is a 5 hour window of clear skies over northern England tonight, ready for a 1st light test!
You should buy a lotto ticket ASAP with that kind of luck! LOL
Congrats!!! A kid in the candy-store that is the Universe.
I'm in the SW, really looking forward to the window this evening, I'm all ready to go.
That's a lot of luck! Hope the first light went well!!
Cuiv, there’s much hard work gone into making a really super video here showing all the many variations between the two makes of Smart telescope. Thanks!
Last night was first light for my Dwarf 3 and the dwarf app and D3 performance was even better than I expected it to be and produced a very good picture of the Pleiades cluster with lots of nebulosity round the main stars after 2.5 hrs of exposure. It was a very enjoyable experience and I was so pleased at how well the app and telescope look after the user throughout the capture. It was worth the long wait of 6 long months to get it! Incidentally I updated the app recently but haven’t seen the mosaic mode yet that you mentioned above.
Thanks Cuiv. I bow to your vast knowledge & always find your videos highly informative & entertaining. I don't think there is a smart telescope review of yours I haven't seen, some more than once.
Thank you so much for your support!! Glad my videos are helpful!
Thank you, just the video I was looking for with everything I needed to finally decide. I just ordered the Dwarf with your link :)
Thanks for your support! There's a long waiting list but I hope it works out well;
I ordered my Dwarf 3 early September. The more and more I watched good people like yourself, I cancelled my order.
I got my money back from Dwarflab within 20 minutes.
The Dwarf 3 is amazing, but two reasons made me change my mind.
One I actually like the smaller f.o.v and with the mosaic mode you can get a larger f.o.v . The Dwarf 3 will never be able to have a smaller f.o.v.
Two I don't think my order and this is my fault, not Dwarflabs would be delivered until at least February and all of you guys producing great youtube videos and images made me want a scope in my hand now.
Unfortunately, the weather hasn't played ball since delivery, but I have some good images with minimal time and data.
I am happy with my Seestar S50 and I believe people who own a Dwarf 3 will be equally happy.
Framing mode on Seestar sucks. Its rejection rate is too high and takes almost 2 hours in complete one which makes It pretty unusable
@anarkicio it seems everyone has different opinions. I got a good two,10 minute RAW videos of Jupiter last night before it clouded over.
@@Doesnotcare12 framing mode is not related to planetary at all, and smart telescopes are pretty bad at it
@anarkicio ummmm I have stated what where?.
I'll have my Seestar for nearly 3 months before I would receive my Dwarf3. Life is short and the reason I caved and changed to a Seestar S50 is that.
Thanks Cuiv, this was the comparison I needed! Now I need to wait and see how things inprove with the Seestar S50 in EQ mode.
Hope they add it soon!
Thanks for the D3 videos. You seem very experienced and you like the D3. I can't wait for my D3 (On the backlog list for end of February?)
Thank you for your support!! Enjoy the D3 once you get it!
Hi Cuiv, and thanks for the comparison. I love my S50.
another amazing video. I purchased the s50 a couple weeks ago and I'm very pleased . I look forward to your videos. Thanks
Awesome as always! Lazy Geek has been my guiding light in the journey from zero to astrophotography, even though I’m still a beginner. Using tools like the Dwarf2 and now the Dwarf3 - as shown in the video compared to more 'point-and-shoot' setups - is truly educational! You can definitely move on to more complex setups, whether refractors or reflectors, but mastering the fundamentals (alignment, calibration, focus, sensor management, and especially PROCESSING with specific software like Siril and PixInsight) is pure gold in terms of learning! So, hats off to the Dwarf for making all of this possible, and I’m sure even the more traditional systems will increasingly adopt automation, electronics, and AI agents as support tools!
Great video and insight on both devices. Each one scratches an itch. Just have to support one (or both) and understand the limitations and be encouraged they are constantly improving features.
Well said!
The video we've all been waiting for!
Hope it's useful!
I am very much looking forward to the Seestar S100.
Great job as usual! Our club now has 5 members with Seestar. It’s great for public outreach. I worried that people would just think you looked up a picture on the internet. But actually people, esp kids, are so eager to look at a cell phone and you know they can actually see it, unlike an eyepiece. So as it builds you can point out the features it stacks. So eyeballs are for planets, smart telescopes are for the faint fuzzys.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!!
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!!
you know, I ordered mine in September, I also have a seestar. I love my seestar and I just really wanted more but without spending so much money. in specs the dwarf 3 is better but not in the fine detail they don't add. optics mainly, I canceled my order and bought a asi533mc pro, I am starting to get my astro rig together redcat51, asi533mc pro, asiairplus, and a lttle more. I think a seestar is a amazing gateway to the hobby for people who dont want to spend a grand for a astro rig. and Cuiv, I thank you so much for all your amazing videos, from smart telescopes to NINA to pixinsight you have been a amazing help and I always recommend you to people who want to learn.
Thanks for this feedback mate, clear skies and happy holidays!
Having done the big full eq set up, with different size scopes from the sharpstar 61, up to the 140, with filter wheels etc. I can see the attraction of the Dwarf labs. Now I have limited time & room to have a full set up, after watching a lot of reviews, I've made my mind up to buy the DL3. Thanks for all of your reviews.
Hope it works out well for you!
Just the video I have been waiting on.
Glad to help ☺️
My S50 arrives today, UPS willing. I had an S30 on pre-order but the combination of wanting a telescope to use during my winter break, the current 10% discount on the S50, and your comparision video of the S30 and S50 pushed me into cancelling the pre-order and ordering the S50. I'm sure I'd like any of them but thanks for helping me make my decision. (I can kind of imagine getting a Dwarf III at some point, too.)
Enjoy the S50, it's a really good little smart scope!
Great Job, nice video!! I'm on the waiting list for DIII. I'll receive it at some point.
I hope it works well for you and that it doesn't come with too many clouds!
I have had the S50 for about 4 months and love it. I love a lot of the qualities of the Dwarf 3, mainly EQ mode. For me the price is reasonable so I decided to own both. I placed an order for the Dwarf 3 about 6 weeks ago
Hopefully you get the Dwarf by summer. 16 week lead time is insane. Some people are waiting 7 months already..
@ At least I have other toys to play with while waiting!
They're very complimentary, but yeah the wait time will be long... Enjoy the S50 and the D3 in the future!!
I just got a Seestar S50 yesterday and I am already considering buying a Dwarf III as a companion to it. Thank you for the in-depth comparisons!
They're both excellent, and one being the companion of the other makes a lot of sense!
Brilliant comparison across the board - it’s easy to see how difficult it is to choose only one! 😂
I’ve got experimentation to do with both devices - planning mode with DWARF 3 and mosaic mode with S50! ❤️🔭
And mosaic with D3 as well! It's available now, things move too fast 😂
I have had the S50 for 10 months and couldn’t be happier with this amazing scope - amd I hadn’t heard before that ZWO are actively developing EQ mode which is great news. I am sure that users of the D3 will be equally happy with their choice. It is so exciting to see this field developing so rapidly, it will be incredible what will be available in say 5 years time.
Probably the most valuable info provided to me was the differences in s/n in mosaic mode, although I don’t have the s50, I use mosaic exclusively with my vespera and I don’t think I appreciated the impact on surrounding nebulosity…. But did note the difference when taking photos of same target with the dwarf 3 in eq mode. Dwarf 3 was clearly showing more of the outer bands of Triangulum faster and I did not really understand why… now I know
@@mercury7 could someone use mosaic several times to increase the “sweet spot” of the S50? Simply reorient the center of the image each mosaic and then stitch them together in post? It would increase the field of view as well?
@@realgoose I’m not positive how the Seestar works but on vespera it does count the number of passes, so at the end of the first pass the image is complete but you can continue for as many passes as you want… so eventually the outer third will enjoy the same snr as the inner third…. Just takes a while
Yep mosaic mode simply has to spend time building a larger and larger picture, it simply can't spend as much time on a single area!
I would go for..... BOTH. I have the S50 at the moment and will get a D3 when available, as I believe they will compliment each other well.
They compliment each other very well, I agree!
Another extremely informative and well presented video. As you mention, just now it's a bit of a question as to what you can get. My first smart scope was a Celestron Origin (much more expensive, of course, and less portable), which I bought basically because one was in stock at a local scope shop. I have now finally obtained an S50, but I haven't had the chance to try it yet (no clear skies). As you note, the Dwarf 3 is on backorder everywhere. I can't observe from home (totally overhung with trees), so I have to go out into the country to work (mostly in frigid temperatures - Canada). This means that a planning mode is basically useless to me, as I'm always going to be out in the middle of nowhere with the scope, and I can't leave it. This will also make using the mosaic mode difficult, as it generates much more overhead in the capture time, which is rather grueling for me (but not as much as manually guiding, which I used to do). I'm really looking forward to trying the S50, and the info that you have provided will really help me. Meanwhile I'm processing what data I've managed to capture with the Origin, and waiting for some clear skies. I would like to try the Dwarf 3 as well, when it becomes available again. The S30 I wouldn't get myself... but I would recommend it, for example, to friends and family, especially those with children, as perhaps the best cheap introduction to astronomy (though I'm also a big fan of working binoculars).
How do you like the Origin??
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Hard to answer shortly. I'm definitely happy that I bought it. The F2.2 6" RASA tube can capture decent details quite quickly in a fairly dark sky. I do have to take it out to a remote site to work, and it's a bit heavy and awkward to manage for me at my age (72), especially in frigid Canadian Winter weather. I had some difficulty getting the Wifi to work properly; Celestron support did help me with that, and I ended up switching from Android to Apple, and adding a third party Wifi aerial to the scope (an option mentioned in an Appendix of the manual). So, I'd give it a thumbs up overall, but it's less something for beginners than the S50 (but at that price, I guess it's not meant to be). Would be great for demonstrations though.
I appreciate the video. Still waiting on my Dwarf 3. I went with the D3 for the option of terrestrial imaging as well as astrophotography.
Hope you get it soon!
@@CuivTheLazyGeekI hope. Reached out to Dwarflabs. Originally was supposed to be early this month. Now it maybe here in January. Chomping at the bit to give it a try. Right now living vicariously through all the review videos 😂
Excellent, I think you covered everything well
Hey Cuiv, I see that you have the Astrophotography Manual! Hoping to get this for Christmas so hopefully it's a good book. Great video as always and hope you're keeping well.
Got mine yesterday and it looks very good.
It's a great book :) 😁
I'm actually using the Dwarf 3 these days as I received It late Nov. I've owned the Seestar S50 for just over a year. I think you highlighted the difference, strengths and weaknesses and agree with your presentation. I do wish the Seestar would add the schedule to its software. I love the schedule feature with the D3. Thank you again for this video!!!
Great comparison nice job. Now I really understand the difference between these three smart telescopes
Great video! Thanks for the info. I have an S50 & I was thinking about buying a Dwarf3 to test out. I also wanted to use the Dwarf3's tracking feature to record video (from a high vantage point) in places where I can't fly a drone like US & Canadian National Parks
True! I don't really have the experience to test such video features, I think most people in National Parks use long poles/monopods with 360 cameras for a "drone-ish" look
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I have an Insta360 that I have used in that way, but I am trying to cut down on carrying too many devices to the parks (especially when I'm on an ebike). An astro telescope/terrestrial tracking camera combo seems like a good idea to me (too bad the Dwarf3 doesn't have a mic port)
Awesome video, Cuiv, as always. 👏
I ordered Drwaf 3 a while ago precisely because of its portability. It’s supposed to arrive tomorrow. By the way, if you don’t mind sharing, what’s the book (Astrophotography Manual) you have by the table?
Hope it works out well for you! The book is good, although getting a bit dated on the PixInsight sections!
@ thank you
Despite the pros and cons in regards to optics, software etc. for me (as also being an owner of the Dwarf 2 and a "real" Celestron SCT with an Astro Cam ;-) ) the advantage of the Dwarf 3 is the portability: It's very small and light compared to the S50, it fits easily into your hand luggage during a flight, so you can take it everywhere easily - and it still produces pictures at least comparable to much bigger, more expensive, not-so-easy to handle "serious" telescope systems 😃🔭🌠
Yep!
I was initially (when looking at all these kinds of reviews) going for S50, but I'm liking the fact that you have more choice with Dwarf3..and if you want more detail..just do more nights to stack the results!
I have a dwarf 3 being delivered tomorrow and I have a question based on my experience as a photographer. Do you think you could get more details to show from the dwarf 3 if you shot several sessions and made adjustments to the gain? Coming from a photography background I'm thinking along the lines of HDR photography where you can pick up details in highlights and shadows just by stacking several shots taken at different shutter speeds or changes to ISO. BTW loved all your videos covering these smart scopes
Not so much - the D3 is already pushing the optical resolution limits of its aperture (Dawes limit)
I sold my S50, as I prefer the dwarf 3. Field of view, eq mode, and I have the zwo asi678 camera for my planetary imaging on my other scopes and really like it. And the dwarf is fun to use! 😊
sad, S50 is much better. :(
@@dobromirdragomirov5257 Not according to this video. In some ways, yes, but I don't think that's very supportable as a blanket statement.
@@mgscheue i agree , i also think the D3 has far more to offer and hits the mark , i cant wait to get mine but i only ordered it yesterday , i might get it by xmas in a years time haha
I think they're great complements to one another, and I hope we get some sort of S50 Pro with a larger sensor at some point!
S50 far much better
I had the Dwarf 3 since 10 days now and I absolutely love it. I had the Dwarf 2 and it was a not brainer immediate upgrade when it was out in pre-sale. Now it also has mosaic mode and it works very well. For the size, the quality and the features the Dwarf 3 has absolutely no competitors at the moment. I can easily put it in my backpack along with a small tripod and take images from wherever I want. Just so cool
It's such a cool scope!
I had a Dwarf 3 and sold it (yeah, already). I've had an S50 for slightly over a year and still use it regularly. I made my choice.
🤯
Whatever works!
With more imaging time, can the Dwarf3's image get close enough in detail so there is basically no difference between them? Love your reviews!
i would imagine it would , the more data the better the image
It might make some small progress, but it will never reach the level of details of the S50, simply due to Dawes limit and pixel scale. With some manual drizzle stacking it could get close though
This might be a good topic for a video unless you have already done so in the past. Thanks for the answers.
I am waiting Christmass to pointing my S50. I am waiting for my D3 maybe in January. Thanks you for pointing at the interesting features in images. You mentionned something about the color calibration that I have not really understood. Could you explain how the colors are obtained in this kind of telescope, I mean how works the filter(s).
It's about color balance: you have processes that can analyze the stars, compare them to their known spectra, and can adjust the color balance of the whole image so that the colors are as close to reality as possible. But you'll still get good color images without that process
Hi Cuiv. I think if I buy one of these, I will go for the Dwarf Lab III for the same reasons that you give and also I already have an EQ Red Cat 51 grab and go set up that will do everything that the S50 can do ( though of course it did cost me considerably more money ). I really liked those images from the Dwarf III, especially the Christmas Tree cluster with the Cone Nebula, like you say for the money you can't argue with the result. Clear Skies.
I agree! The D3 is such a cool, tiny imaging platform :) And I was very happy with that Cone nebula image with just a few hours of integration time!
I recently bought the S50 I am very happy with my choice but I am very tempted by Dwarf III as a second smart scope lol
They're very complementary to one another to be honest :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I think I will get one in April as birthday present to myself haha, I am currently taken mosaic of horsehead and flame nebula before the clouds roll in been terrible last month in north England thick clouds all night with odd hour gap at stupid o'clock
Not the first - but you know, I was exactly waiting for that video!!! 🤗
Hope you enjoyed it!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek 100% - but still miss the feature to rotate the cam for better framing…
After the Dwarf 2, it was clear to me that I had to buy the successor, the Dwarf 3. It arrived roughly six months later. Since then, there has only been one clear night.
So, I’m hoping for better weather to make use of all the amazing features.
Fingers crossed for more clear nights!
Same! Had one clear night the day it arrived. Desperate to imaging
I have a DWARF III on pre-order, my first smart telescope. The capture detail of the S50 is a little superior it appears, but the two killer features I went for in the DWARF are it's compactness & out of the box landscape mode which I much prefer to the S50s portrait mode. To add to that, equatorial mode which probably nailed my decision.
Cuiv, I have the S50, the D3 and the D2. I often take out the Seestar S50 and the Dwarf 3 at the same time to capture different objects, and sometimes, the same objects. BTW, after the DwarfLabs update, the Dwarf 3 now has mosaic mode, and it works quite differently from the Seestar's approach.
I need to test their mosaic mode! My guess is it works differently due to the official Eq mode, where it can be more efficient
Enjoyed that review Cuiv, most will go for the Dwarf 3 because of its portability but as a large Dobsonian light bucket owner I have no issues with the S50, especially as my main interest will be deep sky objects, I think that for the fuzzies out there the Seestar is possibly better, you might give your opinion, I have a Dwarf 3 on order but might just wait and see what Seestar comes up with next, I'm so envious of the software processing that you people have mastered.. Charles
My three hours PixInsight course on UA-cam would put you on the same processing level ;)
Overall for small faint fuzzies (planetary nebulae, galaxies) the S50 is better, for larger faint fuzzies the D3 is considerably better!
Both look amazing and the review gives a great insight into the pros and cons of both devices. I have a Atik428ex and a canon 300mm lens on an astrotrack currently. It's great but takes time to setup up and this is something I have so little of. I have a rural bortle 4 site but the weather is awful so, I have just ordered the S50 and it is the easiest to operate. I may go for the vesprera at some point but the D3 also looks amazing for the price and the FOV is large If seestar can get an easy EQ mode, then they will nail it too.
I've had my S50 for just over a year and I'm very happy with it: despite the British weather giving me relatively few opportunities to use it. And if as mentioned below, they are working on an EQ mode, then I won't be considering buying anything else?
EQ mode officially supported will be awesome!
Ont the D3 list myself (Jan25? Delivery). Have been using the delay to gain familiarity with the processing software using files provided online. I believe another short coming of the S50/S30 alt-azimuth mount is it may have more difficulty shooting near the Zenith which would add another factor to observation scheduling.
Obviously, I need to buy both… Ha ha😅! I f the three I think the dwarf three would be my choice because of portability and field rotation. I do still wonder if they have a mega dwarf in planning… but the dwarf three would balance against a planetary rig very well. Merry Christmas Cuiv.
Mosaic Mode already on Dwarf 3.
Things move fast in the space! :)
20 years ago I clocked a lot of telescope time at the WIYN 0.9 m at Kitt Peak in grad school. All of my telescopes since then have been very low tech. These little machines seem like a chance to revisit my past. At least they don’t require LN2 cooling. Thanks for the information. I think I’d opt for the Seestar, I did a lot of mosaic imaging back then.
So on a Seestar 50 or even my Vespera II it's better NOT to use Mosaic Mode if at all possible?
Yes if for a small target at the center of FOV that you will crop down to in the end, No in pretty much every other case (where 1.1x mosaic will help avoid field rotation)
Doesn't the dwarf have the option of multi night exposures? That is, you can return to the same target night after night and icrease its quality?
Only with manual stacking for now
Nice vid as usual. I ordered an S50 as I think it’s easier for demonstration purposes. BTW. What is the book on the left side of you - visible at the video.
The Astrophotography Manual by Chris Woodhouse
Half way through..what about tripods...presumably having the small legs that is included in SeeStar's granted..means you need a table? Where as the Dwarf needs a seperate tripod but makes it easier to site anywhere, even in a field? Does the SeeStar attach to a tripod?
You can bring your own 1/4" tripod for any of these scopes!
Should mention that huge halo around the star at the bottom of m42 in the seestar s50 image. Looks like the dwarf 3 didn't have that issue as well.
Right, well spotted!
Thanks and great comparison, I opt for S30 for its price $350 vs S50 $450 for 2024 holiday price vs $500+ for dwarf 3, I’m completely new to this hobby so I want to get it cheap, beside software and image quality, S30 is smaller than S50 but it also has two lenses for landscaping mode for tracking animal, cars etc during hiking near city, drawf 3 also has it plus it has a panorama photo mode which Seestar doesn’t offer at all, but the higher price, availability and ease of use pushes me to Seestar S30
Any of these will work great 😸
Thank you!
To quote someone I know, I'm kinda lazy. For me, it all comes down to time. How much time do I spend to get the acceptable level of quality image for each capture. The extreme is saving a multi hour/day single image and processing it in picsinsight using all available options. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Environment(the sky's), hardware, software(HW firmware, post processing) and time. I'm an old guy that accepts my physical limitations. My one and only S50 works for me. Great compare. Thank you.
I have been thinking about a smart scope from before the Dwarf 2 was launched. I think I'm gonna take the leap and get a Dwarf 3. I have a nice woodland area out my back where I can also use it for non astro stuff 👍👍
yeh thats awesome to be able to capture birds and deer ect and track them , i sold my HEQ5pro mount to fund the dwarf and although i havent got it yet i already know i made the right choice
Nice, bird watching with the D3 seems to be a popular activity!
Unfortunately all these scopes lack on the posibility to turn the sensor inside, for a better framing of the object. That’s something I‘d really miss!
Yep that's a limitation! At least with the D3, you have the larger native FOV, so rotation is less needed, but still!
That's a good battle. My choice now: Dwarf III. What will these manufactures do next? Howabout Equinox, Celestron? ~ 1000 $ smart scopes?
Only time will tell!
I just can't get on with the ZWO FOV/sensor shape and size, D3 won for me. it's outside right now capturing M33, EQ mode of course...
you have the D3 ?? im not envious...... much 😭😭😭 i ordered my D3 yesterday i might get it in 8 months time 😄
Enjoy!
Fantastic comparison. Are you able to make sample JPG's available from this video? I'm strongly considering the D3 over the S50 and the 3 night stacks were very intriguing. Thanks!
Salut Cuiv! So far, I've been thrilled with my S50, both from light polluted SF Bay Area; and our summer cabin in Colorado at 2940m, Bortle 2 (sometimes even 1). I was tempted to add a Dwarf 3, but now I'll just wait to see how the ongoing "battle of the software updates" is going--it's an affordable way for both ZWO and DwarfLabs to continue competing. (I also have a C11 with astro modified Canon DSLR, but until I can pour a concrete pier my deck is too unstable for photography--at higher power I can see my heartbeat in the scope.)
I feel you on the heartbeat, when doing visual I had learned to have as slow of a heartbeat as possible, and to breathe deeply and slowly! s50 from B2 sounds amazing!
I own both, I rarely (if ever), use the Seestar. If I want better optics, I use my ,main astro rig. The Equatorial mode, portability and yes the software make the Dwarf3 a more enjoyable tool, and being able to use one of my good Camera Tripods and heads with it make it a no brainer for me to carry with my camera bag,
Sounds fair to me!
I love my Dwarf2 and I hope thed Dwarf3 will be even better (when it arrives, at least!).
But I like the better resolution of Seestar: I'm waiting for an updated one to have even more differences with Dwarf (a slightly larger aperture and focal lenght to capture all those smaller objects the D3 struggles with)
Hi Cuiv I like your smart scope reviews but you look on them for purely AP point of view.
I and many others don't do AP but rather EAA - as 2nd best to visual in light polluted areas. One of the critical parameters of any EAA tool is the time needed to extract details. For me ideally is point and start observing within seconds or tens of seconds. I rarely stay on one object more than few minutes - since I prefer to observe more objects. The most time I spend on one object was 10min on Veil.
Can you please to comparison from this point of view? Lets say what image I can get after 30s, 1min, 5min or 10min. And I assume there will be a significant difference.
Thanks a lot!
I'll see what I can do! In effect the AP POV actually gives you a serious hint about the EAA POV - any differences seen with AP will be starker in EAA. For EAA I would say the D3 is the winner
Once one of them brings out at least a 90mm, I may be very tempted to sell up on my current set up, being an EQ6-Pro coupled with a Skywatcher Explorer 190MN DS Pro Maksutov as well as other ancillaries needed! I mentioned beforehand on your posts that these units are becoming so good and so portable with a lot less physical and mental hassle than setting up the above. I cannot believe what modern technology has brought to the forefront as this would never have even been considered when I started astronomy, in fact that was the days of film camera if you wanted to dare try astrophotography.
It's really amazing what those scopes can do now, and it will be even more amazing to see what they evolve into!
The S50 is $50 less right now, available now, and comes with a tripod (the one sold by Dwarf Lab is $79.00). The only feature that I really want that the Seestar doesn't have is scheduling and I hope that ZWO eventually adds it to the app. I don't think that there would be a hardware limitation.
I'm sure they'll get to it! Definitely shouldn't be a hardware limitation!
I know the Dwarf 3 will be the obvious winner over the S30, but any chance you're going to make a video with side by side comparisons of images taken at the same time from each one? Portability is a huge factor for me, so I probably won't go for the S50, and I'm just wondering if it's worth it to spend the extra $250+ CAD on the Dwarf 3 if the S30 will provide good enough results for a beginner like me.
I'll wait for the S30 equatorial mode!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Oh, is that actually planned or just on your wishlist? That would make a huge difference if it's something they're planning on adding.
Great video, thanks for posting. I’m not sure I fully understood the section around the saved stacks. Technically, I’m not an astrophotographer but rather I do EAA (electronically assisted astronomy) and therefore I don’t do any post processing. For me, it’s all about how good the view is after just several minutes of stacking/livestacking.
I’m looking for a wide field option to compliment my CPC1100 with an ASI533MC Pro with various focal reducers. How are both sets of software in terms of stretching, applying darks, etc while you are stacking? Do you have an opinion as to which smart telescope would work best for EAA?
Differences you see in the final images in this video in terms of SNR will be starker in the first few minutes of imaging
Great review and the choice isn’t easy…..zwo and dwarf lovers
Cuiv, what would the S50 need, to make it as good or better than the D3?
I really miss having links to the image files shown in the video, so I can download and examine them closely myself.
Hi Cuiv, I have the older Dwarf 2, which I love, and I can't justify upgrading to the 3, just yet. But it is so easy to use...
I have a Meade, and Celestron, a 6 inch and a 4.5 inch goto's. They give much better views, once they were set up (especially planets of course). But... I can have the Dwarf 2 viewing in minutes, with multiple targets set up in the schedule, while I'm still getting my other scopes set up.
Also, with the very patchy weather we have in England, with a cloudy sky with clear sky occasionally, I can chance it, and put the Dwarf out. Which I won't bother to do with my other telescopes, unless I Know, that I'll get at least a couple of hours of clear skies. I'm just to lazy.
Got a D2 and ordered a D3 back in Oct, cannot wait for the upgraded model
Dwarflabs should create a lens mount to increase the magnification. With that sensor and a stronger magnification the details would be amazing.
I don't think it's possible, they would need to make it so the lens has a larger aperture, otherwise it will be meaningless, as it's already hitting the physical resolution limits of the optics...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek In photography it's possible to add a x2 or x3 magnifier to pretty much any lens. I did this with the most recent solar eclipse with great results. It is possible to add a magnifier to an iPhone's camera. It should be possible to do the same thing to the Dwarf III.
@@realgoose of course, but what I'm saying is that it wouldn't add more details, because you are already hitting the Dawes limit of the optics for the 35mm aperture size - so no matter how much your increase the focal length, you won't get much more details due to light diffraction!
In Europe, the pricing is a bit different I think. If pricing on the dwarf 3 is about the same as the dwarf 2 was, the dwarf 3 will be about €550. The seastar s50 is €720 and the s30 is €550. If that is the case, the dwarf 3 might be just as expensive as the s30. To bad I can’t find it anywhere available with pricing right now.
VAT I guess...
S30 is available for 480, should get there next two weeks. D3 will be more than that around 650 im guessing, wont have a tripod and most of all has a 18 weeks wait...
Well, if you order a Dwarf III it is more a Easter present. 😁
Waiting for my Dwarf...
True!!! The wait list is long!
Grand merci pour cette comparaison, mon cœur balance plus du cotée DWarflab 3 que j'ai d'ailleurs en possession mais pas encore eu l'occasion de le testé vue la météo que nous avons actuellement. 😉
could S50 be set up in an equatorial mode? Do you think ZWO would add such a mode to their software?
According to a recent FB post, it seems they will!
Why did you forget to take the same photos with the SeeStar S30 and compare them with the other two? I'm curious if it was a bad idea to order a SeeStar S30.
I don't think he forgot. He has a very recent video comparing the S30 and S50.
I didn't forget - my S30 vs S50 comparison made it clear to me that the D3 is just far superior to the S30, so I compared D3 vs S50
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks for the answer Cuiv. However, I would prefer to see the output from when all three had been working on the same object for a certain period of time. When you show output from different objects, created at different times, there are too many unknown parameters mixed into the comparison.
Very cool that you have the shadow of the Horsehead Nebula cast on the S50 for the first 9 minutes or so of this video. 😂 Nice job on the comparison.
If you had an S50 and Dwarf3 is the S3 even a side option?
Which is better? 12x10 sec sec exposures or 1x120sec exposure? I'd imagine the former. In that case an equatorial mount with 35mm is poorer than 50mm on an altazimuth mount. But the software on the Dwarf 3 sounds better. I wonder if a Seestar 50 s2 is coming soon!
12x10 seconds will result in much less noise. The averaging performed during stacking is actually advantageous in that regard.
A single 120s exposure will suffer from field rotation and if the tracking is not perfectly bang on you've a high likelihood of star trails/misshappened stars.
So personally... i'd go multi-exposure over duration if I had to make that choice.
That's a complex question whose answer is "It depends". Mostly on the sky glow flux in the image (which is determined by light pollution, target altitude, focal ratio, and filter used) and on the sensor read noise. In darker areas or in narrowband (even in brighter areas), 1x120s is typically considerably better. But this assumes good tracking of course (and equatorial mode). As long as you have good tracking and you don't saturate the sensor, longer exposures won't perform worse than shorter exposures, and often will perform better (again depending on the factors above)!
@@lmaoroflcopter Thanks for the reply.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks for the reply.
Just a curiosity, with the s50 you're shooting in mosaic mode probably at 2x. Don't you have to be shooting 4 times longer with the s50 to compare the actual overall exposures?
Yes - but clear sky time is a precious commodity, so the correct comparison is what you get for the same amount of that commodity spent!
Boy, I still have some time to decide, but I keep going back to the Dwarf 3 and the Vespera…
Both? 😇
@ - hahaha. That’s possible but unlikely. I think the Dwarf would be great for camping.
i wonder what a picture would look like with a total exposure time of 30 full days
It would look the same as something like 3 hours from Death Valley.... :) Light pollution is merciless!
I would go for the better optics of the S50 and would hope, that it's mechanics can hande an equatorial operation and that such mode comes with a future firmware update.
i have both and i am waiting for clear sky :)
Okay, we can get nice Pictures with the Dwarf when we want Pictures of large Objekts. But what is with smaller Objekts like M27, M51. Could we get them with S50 and the Dwarf?
You'll be able to get them, but just like we saw in the comparison on the smaller details, the S50 would have more details!
WOW thanks so much Cuiv ive been so waiting for this video , funny enough yesterday i finally took the plunge and ordered the D3 then today you posted this video and at first i was worried about watching it after committing to buying the D3 , but i click play whilst hiding behind my pillow with one eye looking at the screen 🙈😂
As the video was playing both eyes started watching and i super pleased to say i am SOOOOOO glad i chose the D3 , your images are amazing Cuiv 10000000% it really blows the mind what these scopes can do / give it a couple years and i can see Dwarf will have autoguiding built in , and who knows one day it could even give current conventional scopes a run for their money REALLY exciting times , thanks again bud 🙏🙏🙏
Congrats, hope you get it sooner rather than later! I'm waiting for a camera cooling option on those scopes 😂
Waiting for my Dwarf 3 now even harder!
i hear ya mate , im even losing sleep over it like a 1st girlfriend haha so cant wait to get ahold of it
Hope you get it soon!