If you want the full nerd explanation on equipment....you are in the right place...thank you Cuiv, again and again and again. This man goes WAY ABOVE AND BEYOND for our small community
One video of a kind!! Also makes me realize guiding is probably what I spent the most time on troubleshooting. A huge thank you for the effort. This video is a true reference on the topic!
I think you just single-handedly caused the biggest aha moment for me that I had in this hobby ever since I started it ten months ago. I am getting terrible, terrible guiding results with my HEQ5 Pro and just couldn't figure out why. I tried everything, but to no avail. I think now I know where my guiding problems come from and it's such a funny mistake when I think about it. Instead of entering the focal length of my ZWO 30mm f4 guide scope into the ASIAIR app, which is obviously 120mm, I think I entered 30mm without even thinking about it. Oh man, can't wait for the next clear night and hopefully laugh about myself. 😂🤦♂🤦♂🤦♂
You can temporarily choose your guide camera as your main imaging camera within the ASI Air app. Then take a test shot and plate solve. The ASI Air app will automatically adjust the focal length to be accurate. Like mine said 122mm and not 120mm. Probably, you have to be close enough for the plate solve to work, so I’m not sure it would overcome your 30mm starting point. Anyway, it’s good to get the exact focal length and the ASI Air system makes that easy.
The best thing I did for my EQ6r pro was to go to 50mm guide scope, same ZWO mini camera but twice as many stars now and went from .9 to less then .5 error.
Excellent video and something I wish I’d seen a couple of years ago. Sorry if you did mention this and I missed it but a big learn for me when using an OAG was that you must recalibrate PHD2 each time you rotate the camera to frame a target. This is because the PHD2 calibration depends on a consistent orientation of the guiding camera. With OAGs the imaging and guiding camera are on the same axis so you are rotating the guider as you rotate the imaging camera and so the previous calibration ‘breaks’. This doesn’t apply if you are using a guide scope as you aren’t rotating the camera that PHD2 is using for guiding. When I moved from using a guide scope to an OAG it took several wasted clear night before the issue dawned on me.
Thank you very much for the video! I received some of my first astrophotography equipment today and I'm very excited. Your simple explanations will definitely help me.
Super presentation that covered a lot of ground. Did not realize you could do a dark library for the guide camera within ASIAir. Also, for the ASIAir you can turn off the guide camera and move it into the main to peform the focus and then put things back once complete. I also use the wizard in PHD2 to calculate the Calibration step settings. Wish ZWO would simply do the same.
Cuiv is a mind reader. I received my very first astro camera yesterday, a delicious ASI2600 Air for my tasty CarbonStar 150. This video should be quite a treat. Thank you!
Talk about timing. I was so frustrated last night having errors in the 14-15" range. Think I found the main reason (not calibrating after refocusing my guide camera) but this is the Ultimate Auto Guiding resource I've been looking for. This is going to take several repeat sessions to digest all this information.
I love it Quiv! The big takeaway is using a better guide camera than my original ASI 120 Mini. Though I had discovered that on another site only a few days ago, your details including IR sensitivity and guide / main camera pixel ratio is outstanding! I am in the process of upgrading to a 150mm F4 reflector with off- axis guiding, so your timing of presenting this crisp, well explained and detailed guide is perfect! Many thanks²!
Beautiful tutorial on guiding ! I’m somewhat advanced in astrophotography but learned so much. Someone might have mentioned this but, to get a close-up for focusing the guide camera, just designate it as the main camera for the time you focus it.
The ASI Air has a setting choice for minimum guide error of either 0.1pixel or 0.2pixel. At guide pixel scale of 7arcsec/pixel (for mini guide scope) and 0.1pixel minimum error, there are no corrections unless you have a 0.7arcsec guiding error detected. Using a 120mm focal length mini guide scope, my guiding was routinely limited by this. Now I’ve switched to the ASI2600MC Air and I’m using a 180mm imaging/guiding scope (FMA180 Pro), I get better guiding at about 0.5arcsec RMS. My next scope (pre-ordered already, expected in December) will have a longer 448mm focal length, so my guiding may improve some more, depending upon the seeing. But if I kept using the Mini guide scope, it wouldn’t improve; it would remain limited by the 0.1pixel minimum error for a correction. And I would typically get something in the 0.7 to 1.2arcsec range. If you translate RMS error to Peak-to-Peak error, you can expect star elongations of roughly 1arcsec x sqrt(2) x 2 = 2.828arcsec using a 120mm guide scope. Then, you can compare that to your imaging sensor pixel scale to see if it matters. However, with OAG or Duo camera, you get corrections at 0.1pixel, so RMS will be maybe 0.15pixel (in theory and not seeing limited or mount limited), and peak-to-peak could reach as good as 0.42pixels, which is great!
Oh wow interesting! I wasn't aware of this limitation - honestly I personally always prefer OAG unless for small refractors, and this is doubly true with this!
Amazing video Cuiv, really interesting part about the IR pass filters for guiding, will definitely have to give that a try, hopefully the snr isn't too low on my camera.
Brilliant video as always, Cuiv! I have desperately been looking for a dedicated deep dive on guiding. I keep getting bad dec guiding everytime after dithering for a whole minute or two before it "settles." Im hoping that with some newfound knowledge, I will be able to isolate the issue and resolve it. Thank you for providing a lot of great information jam-packed in an easy to understand visual format. You put a lot of hard work, time and dedication into each and every one of your videos. You are genuinely and truly a gem for the hobby.💜 👊.
@@Kbla63 I'm going to do an experiment next time I get a clear night I have a different types of filters available to myself and I will see which one is the best but without testing I couldn't tell you
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I just had a quick test with a moon, CLS and UHC filters the results were not that different between all three the moon filter in my opinion was possibly the best as it got rid of the Halo around the stars but the UHC filter on the other hand reduce the amount of smaller stars but the bigger were a lot clearer, I need to retry this test when the light pollution seems to be worse as tonight it's actually pretty good and dark
When you want to focus your guide camera using the AsiAir just choose it as the "Main" imaging camera and then use the "Focus" mode on the right and focus it manually. When done choose the regular camera as your "Imaging" camera and you're golden.
Very good Cuiv. I've been happy with my guiding recently, but I still got 3 good tips... I need to try lowering my guide rate, set up a dark library, and stop calibrating every night on my grab and go. Thanks!
Hi, Cuiv-Great info thanks for this.Re focusing the guide camera with the ASIAIR,If I need to, I disconnect the main camera and connect the guide camera as the main camera then focus it which is easier as you can zoom in then reconnect the main camera and carry on
Awesome video Cuiv. Thank you for making this. I’m currently considering my options for guiding and this video really helped. I’ll be referring back to it many times.
Tip: for guiding with my ASI2600MC Air, I set guide camera with H gain (I think it is 350 gain if I remember correctly). And to reduce high gain noise, I use the dark library, which is super easy to generate. This gives me lots of stars for guiding at 1sec exposure, f/4.5 scope, and 7nm dual narrowband filter. At 180mm focal length on AM5, I got 0.4 to 0.7 arcsec RMS all night long. I also set my corrections to 0.25x sidereal rate. I think faster guide rates can cause more overshoot/undershoot vibrations as the mount accelerates and decelerates for every pulse. So I want gentle guide pulses. But further investigation may be needed.
Very interesting video Cuiv, it's been most helpful. I use an OFG with my 805mm fl refractor and with my shorter focal length refractors I use either a ZWO or an Altair mini guide scope, these were supplied with either the ASI120MM or the GPCAM2 290M guide cameras. I am using a GPCAM3 178M camera with the OAG which seems to work very well, this set up is used exclusively with my EQ6-R Pro mount. My other set ups are used with either a Wave 100i SWG mount or a Star Adventurer GTi. For guiding I use either PHD2 ( Eagle LE and Laptop control) or ASIair or Stellarmate Pro. My best results always seem to come when using my OAG/PHD2/EQ6 combination, though I'm still getting familiar with the wave 100i so I probably haven't got everything set up right for that just yet. I've just got a new ASI220MM guide camera which I was going to use with an Altair starwave 50 guide scope for another rig I'm building up (I know it's an expensive way of doing things but I prefer to have my rigs pre assembled so it's easier to change from one to the other without any dismantling) To be honest so long as I'm getting round stars that aren't too bloated I'm generally happy, but I know on all my set ups the guiding could be better. There is a main expressway at the bottom of my garden which is very busy in the early evenings which definitely affects guiding the guiding being much better in the late evenings or early mornings, which is when I tend to do most of my imaging due to lower levels of local light pollution.
I like your philosophy: basically as long as the stars are round, you're happy! It's interesting that the main expressway vibrations seem to be directly affecting your scope! That would show up as slightly more bloated stars, as if there was poorer atmospheric seeing!
Great video! Thank you very much for all the insights in guiding! Could you elaborate more on max RA and DEC duration? How do we calculate these values? It has to do with stepping? Thanks again!
Hey, totally unrelated to the video : have you seen what is cooking with Siril 1.4 ? You'll be able to give the wavelength of each channel and be done with the calibration, see, you won't have to scratch your head anymore :D
Great review thanks. I recently got the Warp Atron WD20 mount and couldn’t work out why I was getting a massive Dec excursion after flipping. I finally worked out I needed to check the ‘reverse dec output..’ box but It wasn’t immediately obvious. My several previous mounts don’t behave like this.
Great video. Can you elaborate on the early comment regarding the very expensive mounts that use a sky model and absolute encoders? Who makes these? How do they work?
10Micron is well known for that for instance! I think AstroPhysics and Paramount also have those. Absolute encoders means the mount always knows exactly where it is pointed and is always aware of any deviations of tracking without needing a guide setup (the internal encoders keep track of that). Sky modeling using many stars in the sky allow the mount to have a model of refractive index wrt object altitude (e.g. it learns where the star appears vs where it actually is, and knows the impact of refraction from that), and thus can track perfectly while taking into account refraction effects!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek thanks for such a comprehensive answer. I just became a Patreon. How are the ioptron high precision encoder mounts for unguided tracking? Where do the images for the sky model come from? From the main camera? How often do you build a new model? Is that once per viewing location or more times over the seasons?
The niche itself is small! I'm already so honored to have so many subscribers! Larger channels in the space typically have more general videos and their more detailed videos typically get fewer views, so it is what it is! Thank you so much for this feedback though!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek love your channel, I’m a long time photographer about to get into this and have been watching your stuff for weeks as I formulate my plan on what gear to start with. It helps to have a background in photography but man is this a whole different animal. It’s like CNC machining photographs and I am looking forward to give this a real go! Niche Content is invaluable, and you have a dedicated following for a reason in it!!!! Anyone sharing their passion shows and is the best content for learning, keep it up from a new subscriber!!!
Thank you very much for the rich informative subject, it's very accurate for astrophotography,it's mandatory to have strong supporting frame of both main OTA guide scope and imaging train including the focuser on other side the good heavy mount holding less than half of the recommended payload, that's true? The OAG and camera dual sensor are excellent for my SCT,Good luck.
Half the recommended payload depends on the manufacturer and mount - with Vixen and Takahashi it's usually fine to go all the way up. With SkyWatcher it's usually better to limit yourself. With strain wave gears it seems to matter much less!
My Stars through the svbony 30mm f4 with a omegon camera (asi 120mm sensor) analog definitely look terrible. It got better with a UV/IR filter. But good to know that it does not matter. Thanks a lot for all the information!!!
I haven’t finished the video yet, so I apologize if this was covered, but the solution to the focus difference (when using an OAG) between no filter and filtered has a simple solution. Us a UV/IT Cut or similar filter instead of no filter. It’s the thickens of the filter that affects the backfocus. I discovered that problem (and solution) when I started using an OAG and filter wheel combination.
Awesome video! 👍👍👍 Just a question: I'm using the Touptek drawer and OAG, did you add the 1mm thickness / washer to the optical train after the comacorr? It's quite odd that the 1mm adapter is not provided with the filter drawer but with the filter wheel!
Cuiv thanks for the useful and great video as usual. At the end with a SCT 8 would you rather suggest an OAG or a separate guidescope? I cannot decide for the best. Another question: I'm thinking to use my ASI 678 as guiding camera when I don't use it for planetary imaging. Do you think it's a good idea or the sensor size is too small?
Nice guide, very usefull. But I think you're comparing the IR sensitivity wrong. For the ASI220 you showed the QE, and for the Touptek462 you showed the "relative response". Both cameras have roughly the same "relative response" curves.
Cuiv, much appreciation for this very informative video. I was struck by something that wasn't the focus of your video, your SNR on the guide star. I believe you said it was around 50. I've never seen an SNR that high. I usually get 20 or even 15 to 16 at times. Is this caused by seeing? Or is there a way to improve that? I do have a dark library in PHD2. Thanks!
Hi Cuiv Great video. One question, what if you have a rotator. What will PHD2 do with it? Will it adjust the calibration if you have rotate the imaging camera / guide camera with reference the original calibration position? If so a topic for another day.
If money doesn’t matter, ZWO or others could make a camera with three sensors - main imaging sensor, 1st guide sensor above image sensor, and 2nd guide sensor below the image sensor. With multi-star guiding this would have benefit of using guide stars farther apart to average the seeing better. With dark filters and long focal length OTA, it would double the odds of having a bright star for guiding. Normally, it would be a patentable invention, but I just made it public domain (unless someone else already applied for a patent). A lot of astroimagers have large budgets, so I think it would sell.
The possible issue you might run into though is lack of space in the "light cone", i.e. you might struggle get enough light for all 3 sensors. The Duo cameras already use a M54 connection to accomodate for this.
@ Doesn’t the duo camera have the main sensor perfectly centered? I think it does. If it does, then the light cone is already inherently large enough to accommodate a second guide sensor. The guiding in the duo seems to work quite well, so maybe my concept is overthought. But maybe not for some applications.
There is another piece of open source and free software available which uses it's native guiding. Can you cover kstars with EKOS? It's cross platform, so working in Windows, Mac and Linux.
Thank you for such a thorough guiding tutorial! I have a 120mm guide scope similar to the one in your video, and I’m curious whether sensor rotation affects guiding accuracy. I typically position the sensor with its longer side horizontal, but rotating it about 45 degrees would help with cable management. Would that have any effect on guiding performance?
In theory it shouldn't! Well the direction of the star movements may now be on the pixel diagonal for instance, so PHD2's estimate of star movement will be slightly less precise, but if your follow the 5x rule I mention in the video, this wouldn't be an issue at all!
Thank you, Cuiv, for the thorough and insightful autoguiding tutorial. Are you familiar with ONAG? It seems like one of the best solutions for high focal length guiding, though unfortunately, it does come with a hefty price tag.
Hi Cuiv! I am about to start autoguiding with a ZWO 120 MM. My mount is a HEQ5. I am still trying to gather all the information I can before my first session using autoguiding. Sorry if I am surprised about a comment appearing @ 26:44. You say that we should not connect the ST4 cable, and instead use the USB connection. Is that right? Sorry if the question sounds weird, but I am not an advanced astrophotographer. By the way, many thanks for your great videos !
Hi Cuiv, thanks for the video. I'll go ans review mij settings and finaly know what to do with the guiding assistant in PHD2. Becouse my guiding is good I don't like to change things, but mybe I kan make it even beter. One question; I have set my guidescope just out of focus, I don't remember who told me, but is should be something for beter guiding. Could that be a thing to prevent poor guiding when you have pin point stars and a some what poor seeing?
In general, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!! Otherwise that out of focus recommendation is old - I think it probably was to avoid saturated stars. But with PHD2 able to choose its own suitable stars, it's really not needed now, and probably hurts more than it helps!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek There's a video on "The Narrowband Channel" about guiding performance with the ASI2600MM Duo and narrowband filters that was created 3 weeks ago ("Can the MONO DUO Guide in Narrowband?"). At about 2:30, he claims that setting the guide camera slightly out of focus can resolve guiding issues. It goes against common sense, but after all reasonable fixes have been tried, it might be a last resort thing. Dunno.
Question about recalibration, @57:30. If I'm using an OAG and manually need to rotate the imaging train to better frame a target, the guide camera won't have moved in relation to the main camera, but won't that screw up the calibration? Just thinking if an initial calibration had a drift in RA going left-right, if I rotate the imaging train say 45 degrees, won't the guide camera then see the simple RA drift going at an angle and send pulses to both RA and Dec to compensate?
It's not really enough for a video! Say you get very good guiding figures but bad star shapes, getting worse the longer the exposure. That's the main symptom of flexure. If the star shapes are always oblong regardless of exposure time, but guiding figures are good, then the camera cooling fan could be the culprit
Hi dear Cuiv, I have a telescope GSO 200mm and my main camera is a QHY 10, which has 6,05 u pixel. The telescope resolution is 1,25”/pixel About guidescope, I have a 60 x 240mm and camera ASI 120 which has 3,75 u pixel. The guidescope resolution is 3,22”/pixel. In order to keep the scopes in “accordance” I use a barlow 2x on the guidescope which brings the resolution to 1,61”/pixel. The use of the barlow turns the image a little bit dark and it was a little difficult to get focus. My doubt is: Should I set on PHD parameters the focal lengh of guidescope at 240mm as original or 480mm due to the use of barlow attached on the camera? Greetings from Brazil.
And what about Guidescope Suitability on astronomy tools website. I’m just beginner and start collecting equipment I have no tracking yet but I was thinking for my 8SE on EQ6-R Pro to go with SkyWatcher Startravel 102 it got 500m FL pair this with ASI 120mm mini. At this moment I’m using Nikond5300 and reducer 0.63. On Suitability calculator I got 1:2.45 and I heard that idea is to keep under 1:5 ratio and your calculation it give me 0.97. Is that good pair/match ? I’m asking before I pull a trigger and buy it ? Any help I will appreciate thanks.
With dual-band filters, it was fine with 4nm bandpasses and 1-2s exposures. With single band filters, I've seen reports that it works well down to 5nm, or 7nm to be safer with 1s exposures
@@CuivTheLazyGeekthats not bad. I have a 2600MC for my redcat, but I would like to get something close to 800FL and mono but was afraid imaging in something super dim like Sii would give it nothing to guide on
You also have to take into account the optics aperture. For F4 it will likely be fine, for a more refractor typical aperture of F8 (or worse for a SCT with lower aperture), might start being a struggle.
I don't know either! Now that UA-cam has removed the dislike counter, what you see is an estimate (probably thanks to an extension you installed) but it's close! This video has 3 dislikes (I can still see the exact count on my side). I like to think it's just people who misclicked while trying to hit the like button :p
Hi Cuiv, thanks for the great tutorial! I use PHD2, but every time I the mount slews to a new position PHD2 requires a new calibration, it is very frustrating. I have selected the "Auto restore calibration" option in the advanced settings. Any idea why is this?
Are you using an ST4 cable with On-Camera mount guiding? That's the only situation I can think of where PHD2 would force you to recalibrate each time. Otherwise PHD2 should be perfectly happy to reuse calibration results. If using the ST4 cable, burn the cable immediately, and control your mount via USB
Good video Cuiv! Regarding PHD2, I recommend a run through of "Guiding Assistant" at the beginning of every session. Your video ua-cam.com/video/YCd67zdycWk/v-deo.html at 4:15
Yep! I touch briefly on the guiding assistant in this video! You don't really need to run it before each session if your setup hasn't moved at all though!
Yeah - most of us use PHD2 ... and there is a lot of a dive there. And man, my respect, but there are so many things that can screw the guiding, so you don't even scratched the surface of the video title. No offence. Got a like anyway :)
“Or you are using autoguiding or you wish you are”. Really? Used guiding, I wish I never did. All these fancy developments and we are still on mercy of this procedure. Something not right.
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If you want the full nerd explanation on equipment....you are in the right place...thank you Cuiv, again and again and again. This man goes WAY ABOVE AND BEYOND for our small community
Happy to server :) Seriously I just love this community!
One video of a kind!! Also makes me realize guiding is probably what I spent the most time on troubleshooting. A huge thank you for the effort. This video is a true reference on the topic!
Thank you!! It was a lot of work, and I'm glad it's helpful!
I think you just single-handedly caused the biggest aha moment for me that I had in this hobby ever since I started it ten months ago. I am getting terrible, terrible guiding results with my HEQ5 Pro and just couldn't figure out why. I tried everything, but to no avail. I think now I know where my guiding problems come from and it's such a funny mistake when I think about it. Instead of entering the focal length of my ZWO 30mm f4 guide scope into the ASIAIR app, which is obviously 120mm, I think I entered 30mm without even thinking about it. Oh man, can't wait for the next clear night and hopefully laugh about myself. 😂🤦♂🤦♂🤦♂
The way in astro the main number quoted is the aperture not the focal length as it is in regular photography gets me every time.
@@StuartAnderton Exactly. After more than 15 years in professional photography it is very hard to unlearn that :)
You can temporarily choose your guide camera as your main imaging camera within the ASI Air app. Then take a test shot and plate solve. The ASI Air app will automatically adjust the focal length to be accurate. Like mine said 122mm and not 120mm. Probably, you have to be close enough for the plate solve to work, so I’m not sure it would overcome your 30mm starting point. Anyway, it’s good to get the exact focal length and the ASI Air system makes that easy.
Hahaha yes!!! It's so easy to get confused, glad this was helpful!
The best thing I did for my EQ6r pro was to go to 50mm guide scope, same ZWO mini camera but twice as many stars now and went from .9 to less then .5 error.
Excellent video and something I wish I’d seen a couple of years ago. Sorry if you did mention this and I missed it but a big learn for me when using an OAG was that you must recalibrate PHD2 each time you rotate the camera to frame a target. This is because the PHD2 calibration depends on a consistent orientation of the guiding camera. With OAGs the imaging and guiding camera are on the same axis so you are rotating the guider as you rotate the imaging camera and so the previous calibration ‘breaks’. This doesn’t apply if you are using a guide scope as you aren’t rotating the camera that PHD2 is using for guiding. When I moved from using a guide scope to an OAG it took several wasted clear night before the issue dawned on me.
Yep you're very correct about that - any change in equipment or angles require recalibration!
Thank you very much for the video! I received some of my first astrophotography equipment today and I'm very excited. Your simple explanations will definitely help me.
That's awesome!! Enjoy your first rig!
Super presentation that covered a lot of ground. Did not realize you could do a dark library for the guide camera within ASIAir. Also, for the ASIAir you can turn off the guide camera and move it into the main to peform the focus and then put things back once complete. I also use the wizard in PHD2 to calculate the Calibration step settings. Wish ZWO would simply do the same.
Thank you Professor Cuiv. Nobody could have explained it better than you. Always appreciate your efforts for the community❤❤
Glad it's helpful!! 😊
Man! I’m literally in the process of adding guiding and questioning my sanity and you drop this. MUCH appreciated!
Woohoo! That's awesome, I'm glad this will be helpful!
Cuiv is a mind reader. I received my very first astro camera yesterday, a delicious ASI2600 Air for my tasty CarbonStar 150. This video should be quite a treat. Thank you!
Very tasty indeed
Oh wow this is indeed extremely tasty!! :)
Talk about timing. I was so frustrated last night having errors in the 14-15" range. Think I found the main reason (not calibrating after refocusing my guide camera) but this is the Ultimate Auto Guiding resource I've been looking for. This is going to take several repeat sessions to digest all this information.
I'm so glad this was helpful! Hope you fix the issue and enjoy guiding!
I love it Quiv! The big takeaway is using a better guide camera than my original ASI 120 Mini. Though I had discovered that on another site only a few days ago, your details including IR sensitivity and guide / main camera pixel ratio is outstanding! I am in the process of upgrading to a 150mm F4 reflector with off- axis guiding, so your timing of presenting this crisp, well explained and detailed guide is perfect!
Many thanks²!
Glad² this was helpful!!
Beautiful tutorial on guiding ! I’m somewhat advanced in astrophotography but learned so much. Someone might have mentioned this but, to get a close-up for focusing the guide camera, just designate it as the main camera for the time you focus it.
Glad this was helpful! And you're right about using the guide cam as main for focusing, that makes sense!
The ASI Air has a setting choice for minimum guide error of either 0.1pixel or 0.2pixel. At guide pixel scale of 7arcsec/pixel (for mini guide scope) and 0.1pixel minimum error, there are no corrections unless you have a 0.7arcsec guiding error detected. Using a 120mm focal length mini guide scope, my guiding was routinely limited by this. Now I’ve switched to the ASI2600MC Air and I’m using a 180mm imaging/guiding scope (FMA180 Pro), I get better guiding at about 0.5arcsec RMS. My next scope (pre-ordered already, expected in December) will have a longer 448mm focal length, so my guiding may improve some more, depending upon the seeing. But if I kept using the Mini guide scope, it wouldn’t improve; it would remain limited by the 0.1pixel minimum error for a correction. And I would typically get something in the 0.7 to 1.2arcsec range. If you translate RMS error to Peak-to-Peak error, you can expect star elongations of roughly 1arcsec x sqrt(2) x 2 = 2.828arcsec using a 120mm guide scope. Then, you can compare that to your imaging sensor pixel scale to see if it matters. However, with OAG or Duo camera, you get corrections at 0.1pixel, so RMS will be maybe 0.15pixel (in theory and not seeing limited or mount limited), and peak-to-peak could reach as good as 0.42pixels, which is great!
Oh wow interesting! I wasn't aware of this limitation - honestly I personally always prefer OAG unless for small refractors, and this is doubly true with this!
A great video with a few lightbulb moments. Thank you for your time and enthusiasm.
Glad this was helpful!
You must be reading my mind with this video. I tested autoguiding last weekend and needed help. I'll watch the video later, but thank you a lot!! 😊
Hopefully this will help!
Amazing video Cuiv, really interesting part about the IR pass filters for guiding, will definitely have to give that a try, hopefully the snr isn't too low on my camera.
Will be interesting!
Brilliant video as always, Cuiv! I have desperately been looking for a dedicated deep dive on guiding. I keep getting bad dec guiding everytime after dithering for a whole minute or two before it "settles." Im hoping that with some newfound knowledge, I will be able to isolate the issue and resolve it.
Thank you for providing a lot of great information jam-packed in an easy to understand visual format. You put a lot of hard work, time and dedication into each and every one of your videos. You are genuinely and truly a gem for the hobby.💜 👊.
Good video you gave me the idea of putting a filter for my guide camera because of the light pollution
Evening. I haven't used a filter for my guidescope but what's your thoughts with a filter?, do you have a pacific in mind?
@@Kbla63 I'm going to do an experiment next time I get a clear night I have a different types of filters available to myself and I will see which one is the best but without testing I couldn't tell you
Let us know how it goes!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I just had a quick test with a moon, CLS and UHC filters the results were not that different between all three the moon filter in my opinion was possibly the best as it got rid of the Halo around the stars but the UHC filter on the other hand reduce the amount of smaller stars but the bigger were a lot clearer, I need to retry this test when the light pollution seems to be worse as tonight it's actually pretty good and dark
When you want to focus your guide camera using the AsiAir just choose it as the "Main" imaging camera and then use the "Focus" mode on the right and focus it manually. When done choose the regular camera as your "Imaging" camera and you're golden.
Yep, I even had filmed that but cut it for the video - seemed like too much of a roundabout way to do things :)
Always informative, funny and good approach to the subject. Once again, great job Cuiv.
Glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for the support!
Very good Cuiv. I've been happy with my guiding recently, but I still got 3 good tips... I need to try lowering my guide rate, set up a dark library, and stop calibrating every night on my grab and go. Thanks!
Hi, Cuiv-Great info thanks for this.Re focusing the guide camera with the ASIAIR,If I need to, I disconnect the main camera and connect the guide camera as the main camera then focus it which is easier as you can zoom in then reconnect the main camera and carry on
Makes sense as a workaround! Still would be nice if we could zoom in!
Awesome video Cuiv. Thank you for making this. I’m currently considering my options for guiding and this video really helped. I’ll be referring back to it many times.
Thanks Cuiv, you are the best at explaining things, it helps out a lot!!
Glad this is helpful!
I learn something every time I watch one of your videos, amazing.
As always, great tips and info! Thanks, Cuiv !
Glad you found it helpful!
Amazing video and great explanation, thanks so much.
Tip: for guiding with my ASI2600MC Air, I set guide camera with H gain (I think it is 350 gain if I remember correctly). And to reduce high gain noise, I use the dark library, which is super easy to generate. This gives me lots of stars for guiding at 1sec exposure, f/4.5 scope, and 7nm dual narrowband filter. At 180mm focal length on AM5, I got 0.4 to 0.7 arcsec RMS all night long. I also set my corrections to 0.25x sidereal rate. I think faster guide rates can cause more overshoot/undershoot vibrations as the mount accelerates and decelerates for every pulse. So I want gentle guide pulses. But further investigation may be needed.
Yes I also need to test fast vs slow guide rates!! Could be important for SWG mounts!
Quality review Cuiv
Pick up some very handy tips from this!
Many thanks
Cheers Simon
Cheers Simon! Glad this was helpful!
@ It really was 👍🏻
Thank god you made a video about guiding, I have the zwo guiding scope the only issue I have it took me a while to focus.
Good luck! Hope this is useful!
Great information Cuiv. Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure :) Glad it is helpful!
Thanks Cuiv for another one great video. It's very useful!
That's great to hear!
Thanks! Very helpful, as usual.
My pleasure! Hope this is useful! And thanks for your support!
Very interesting video Cuiv, it's been most helpful. I use an OFG with my 805mm fl refractor and with my shorter focal length refractors I use either a ZWO or an Altair mini guide scope, these were supplied with either the ASI120MM or the GPCAM2 290M guide cameras. I am using a GPCAM3 178M camera with the OAG which seems to work very well, this set up is used exclusively with my EQ6-R Pro mount. My other set ups are used with either a Wave 100i SWG mount or a Star Adventurer GTi. For guiding I use either PHD2 ( Eagle LE and Laptop control) or ASIair or Stellarmate Pro. My best results always seem to come when using my OAG/PHD2/EQ6 combination, though I'm still getting familiar with the wave 100i so I probably haven't got everything set up right for that just yet. I've just got a new ASI220MM guide camera which I was going to use with an Altair starwave 50 guide scope for another rig I'm building up (I know it's an expensive way of doing things but I prefer to have my rigs pre assembled so it's easier to change from one to the other without any dismantling)
To be honest so long as I'm getting round stars that aren't too bloated I'm generally happy, but I know on all my set ups the guiding could be better. There is a main expressway at the bottom of my garden which is very busy in the early evenings which definitely affects guiding the guiding being much better in the late evenings or early mornings, which is when I tend to do most of my imaging due to lower levels of local light pollution.
I like your philosophy: basically as long as the stars are round, you're happy! It's interesting that the main expressway vibrations seem to be directly affecting your scope! That would show up as slightly more bloated stars, as if there was poorer atmospheric seeing!
Excellent, and interesting re using an IR filter on the guide camera, to help with chasing the seeing, might try that…thanks 👍🏻
Yeah I want to try that as well!
This is exactly what im looking for. Thanks Cuiv
I'm so glad this was helpful!
Fantastic guide. I need to go back and watch it about 20 more times to get all the detail out of it I need. I will get your view rate up at least...
Haha, glad this was helpful and I appreciate the support!
Once again, thank you
Great video! Thank you very much for all the insights in guiding! Could you elaborate more on max RA and DEC duration? How do we calculate these values? It has to do with stepping? Thanks again!
Hey, totally unrelated to the video :
have you seen what is cooking with Siril 1.4 ? You'll be able to give the wavelength of each channel and be done with the calibration, see, you won't have to scratch your head anymore :D
That's the SPCC narrowband mode, like in PI right? Yeah, 1.4.0 looks great!
Thank you so much for this great video Cuiv, it's really appreciated.
My pleasure! Thanks for your support!
Fantastic video😊
Thank you 🤗
Just got my ToupTek OAG, perfect timing Cuiv!
Awesome! Glad this will be helpful!
Just stopping by to say hello.
Hi~
Awesome video!!! 👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks!!
Great review thanks. I recently got the Warp Atron WD20 mount and couldn’t work out why I was getting a massive Dec excursion after flipping. I finally worked out I needed to check the ‘reverse dec output..’ box but It wasn’t immediately obvious. My several previous mounts don’t behave like this.
Yep, it depends on the mount - I'm glad this was helpful!
I would have just wanted this to be published a couple of weeks earlier. Might have spared me some headache...
Sorry about that! But now you have this for future reference!
Informative 👌
Thank you!
Great video. Can you elaborate on the early comment regarding the very expensive mounts that use a sky model and absolute encoders? Who makes these? How do they work?
10Micron is well known for that for instance! I think AstroPhysics and Paramount also have those. Absolute encoders means the mount always knows exactly where it is pointed and is always aware of any deviations of tracking without needing a guide setup (the internal encoders keep track of that). Sky modeling using many stars in the sky allow the mount to have a model of refractive index wrt object altitude (e.g. it learns where the star appears vs where it actually is, and knows the impact of refraction from that), and thus can track perfectly while taking into account refraction effects!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek thanks for such a comprehensive answer. I just became a Patreon. How are the ioptron high precision encoder mounts for unguided tracking? Where do the images for the sky model come from? From the main camera? How often do you build a new model? Is that once per viewing location or more times over the seasons?
Dude... how come you only have 60k subscribers!?? Tell people to subscribe!
He does
It’s a niche hobby, not like regular photography….
The niche itself is small! I'm already so honored to have so many subscribers! Larger channels in the space typically have more general videos and their more detailed videos typically get fewer views, so it is what it is! Thank you so much for this feedback though!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek love your channel, I’m a long time photographer about to get into this and have been watching your stuff for weeks as I formulate my plan on what gear to start with. It helps to have a background in photography but man is this a whole different animal. It’s like CNC machining photographs and I am looking forward to give this a real go!
Niche Content is invaluable, and you have a dedicated following for a reason in it!!!! Anyone sharing their passion shows and is the best content for learning, keep it up from a new subscriber!!!
Thank you very much for the rich informative subject, it's very accurate for astrophotography,it's mandatory to have strong supporting frame of both main OTA guide scope and imaging train including the focuser on other side the good heavy mount holding less than half of the recommended payload, that's true?
The OAG and camera dual sensor are excellent for my SCT,Good luck.
Half the recommended payload depends on the manufacturer and mount - with Vixen and Takahashi it's usually fine to go all the way up. With SkyWatcher it's usually better to limit yourself. With strain wave gears it seems to matter much less!
@CuivTheLazyGeek the strain wave gear preferred ,thank you very much for the valuable recommendations ☺️.
My Stars through the svbony 30mm f4 with a omegon camera (asi 120mm sensor) analog definitely look terrible. It got better with a UV/IR filter. But good to know that it does not matter. Thanks a lot for all the information!!!
I haven’t finished the video yet, so I apologize if this was covered, but the solution to the focus difference (when using an OAG) between no filter and filtered has a simple solution. Us a UV/IT Cut or similar filter instead of no filter. It’s the thickens of the filter that affects the backfocus. I discovered that problem (and solution) when I started using an OAG and filter wheel combination.
Correct - unfortunately still then some filters are thicker than others and still cause the issue when switching!
True. I remember making sure to get a 2mm thick uv/ir so it would be the same thickness as my other filters.
Awesome video! 👍👍👍 Just a question: I'm using the Touptek drawer and OAG, did you add the 1mm thickness / washer to the optical train after the comacorr? It's quite odd that the 1mm adapter is not provided with the filter drawer but with the filter wheel!
Hey Cuiv... Great video as usual... quick question... What is the miniPC you are using in your Newt?
Mele Quieter 4C! amzn.to/40XN4RB
Cuiv thanks for the useful and great video as usual. At the end with a SCT 8 would you rather suggest an OAG or a separate guidescope? I cannot decide for the best.
Another question: I'm thinking to use my ASI 678 as guiding camera when I don't use it for planetary imaging. Do you think it's a good idea or the sensor size is too small?
For an SCT I would always recommend an OAG to account for mirror shift! As to the guide camera, I would need to check the 678 specs, can't really rn
I wish i had this video half a year ago. Thanks!
It's here now for future reference if you need it :)
Nice guide, very usefull. But I think you're comparing the IR sensitivity wrong. For the ASI220 you showed the QE, and for the Touptek462 you showed the "relative response". Both cameras have roughly the same "relative response" curves.
Hi Cuiv, great video as usual. Many thanks for all your efforts. Have you loaded NINA on to the Stellarmate?? If so, How easy was that?
Afaik NINA can't be loaded on Stellarmate Pro, it requires Windows, unless something changed?
@ I suspected that was the case just wondered when it was on the scope you were sat next to. Many thanks again and clear skies 🌌
Cuiv, much appreciation for this very informative video. I was struck by something that wasn't the focus of your video, your SNR on the guide star. I believe you said it was around 50. I've never seen an SNR that high. I usually get 20 or even 15 to 16 at times. Is this caused by seeing? Or is there a way to improve that? I do have a dark library in PHD2. Thanks!
Hi Cuiv
Great video. One question, what if you have a rotator. What will PHD2 do with it? Will it adjust the calibration if you have rotate the imaging camera / guide camera with reference the original calibration position? If so a topic for another day.
Thanks!
Wow, thank you so much for your support!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek You are welcome and Thank you Cuiv for the awesome videos!
If money doesn’t matter, ZWO or others could make a camera with three sensors - main imaging sensor, 1st guide sensor above image sensor, and 2nd guide sensor below the image sensor. With multi-star guiding this would have benefit of using guide stars farther apart to average the seeing better. With dark filters and long focal length OTA, it would double the odds of having a bright star for guiding. Normally, it would be a patentable invention, but I just made it public domain (unless someone else already applied for a patent). A lot of astroimagers have large budgets, so I think it would sell.
That would be awesome indeed!
The possible issue you might run into though is lack of space in the "light cone", i.e. you might struggle get enough light for all 3 sensors. The Duo cameras already use a M54 connection to accomodate for this.
@ Doesn’t the duo camera have the main sensor perfectly centered? I think it does. If it does, then the light cone is already inherently large enough to accommodate a second guide sensor. The guiding in the duo seems to work quite well, so maybe my concept is overthought. But maybe not for some applications.
@@swagonman I think you might actually be correct about the position of the main sensor. My bad, ....if so, then yes.
There is another piece of open source and free software available which uses it's native guiding.
Can you cover kstars with EKOS? It's cross platform, so working in Windows, Mac and Linux.
I've covered it a while back, and also in my Stellarmate review - in the end though I just prefer NINA over EKOS/Kstars...
Thank you for such a thorough guiding tutorial! I have a 120mm guide scope similar to the one in your video, and I’m curious whether sensor rotation affects guiding accuracy. I typically position the sensor with its longer side horizontal, but rotating it about 45 degrees would help with cable management. Would that have any effect on guiding performance?
In theory it shouldn't! Well the direction of the star movements may now be on the pixel diagonal for instance, so PHD2's estimate of star movement will be slightly less precise, but if your follow the 5x rule I mention in the video, this wouldn't be an issue at all!
Thanks again, I just verified and my ratio is 1:37 for my telescope/ guider combination. So is going to to work perfectly.
Thank you, Cuiv, for the thorough and insightful autoguiding tutorial. Are you familiar with ONAG? It seems like one of the best solutions for high focal length guiding, though unfortunately, it does come with a hefty price tag.
Yep, but it uses far too much back focus for most scenarios...
Hi Cuiv! I am about to start autoguiding with a ZWO 120 MM. My mount is a HEQ5. I am still trying to gather all the information I can before my first session using autoguiding. Sorry if I am surprised about a comment appearing @ 26:44. You say that we should not connect the ST4 cable, and instead use the USB connection. Is that right? Sorry if the question sounds weird, but I am not an advanced astrophotographer. By the way, many thanks for your great videos !
Hi Cuiv, thanks for the video. I'll go ans review mij settings and finaly know what to do with the guiding assistant in PHD2. Becouse my guiding is good I don't like to change things, but mybe I kan make it even beter. One question; I have set my guidescope just out of focus, I don't remember who told me, but is should be something for beter guiding. Could that be a thing to prevent poor guiding when you have pin point stars and a some what poor seeing?
In general, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!! Otherwise that out of focus recommendation is old - I think it probably was to avoid saturated stars. But with PHD2 able to choose its own suitable stars, it's really not needed now, and probably hurts more than it helps!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek There's a video on "The Narrowband Channel" about guiding performance with the ASI2600MM Duo and narrowband filters that was created 3 weeks ago ("Can the MONO DUO Guide in Narrowband?"). At about 2:30, he claims that setting the guide camera slightly out of focus can resolve guiding issues. It goes against common sense, but after all reasonable fixes have been tried, it might be a last resort thing. Dunno.
Question about recalibration, @57:30. If I'm using an OAG and manually need to rotate the imaging train to better frame a target, the guide camera won't have moved in relation to the main camera, but won't that screw up the calibration? Just thinking if an initial calibration had a drift in RA going left-right, if I rotate the imaging train say 45 degrees, won't the guide camera then see the simple RA drift going at an angle and send pulses to both RA and Dec to compensate?
Correct you will need to recalibrate in this case!
Hi Quiv, could you do a video demonstrating Flexure? So far I have only heard talk of it, like the boogyman - lol.
It's not really enough for a video! Say you get very good guiding figures but bad star shapes, getting worse the longer the exposure. That's the main symptom of flexure. If the star shapes are always oblong regardless of exposure time, but guiding figures are good, then the camera cooling fan could be the culprit
Hi dear Cuiv, I have a telescope GSO 200mm and my main camera is a QHY 10, which has 6,05 u pixel. The telescope resolution is 1,25”/pixel
About guidescope, I have a 60 x 240mm and camera ASI 120 which has 3,75 u pixel. The guidescope resolution is 3,22”/pixel.
In order to keep the scopes in “accordance” I use a barlow 2x on the guidescope which brings the resolution to 1,61”/pixel.
The use of the barlow turns the image a little bit dark and it was a little difficult to get focus.
My doubt is: Should I set on PHD parameters the focal lengh of guidescope at 240mm as original or 480mm due to the use of barlow attached on the camera?
Greetings from Brazil.
Real focal length of the system, e.g. 480mm
Q: Should i set backlash comp in the mount (e.g. in onstep) or i can rely on guiding to fully compensate it automatically?
I'd always leave it to PHD2
Pfffff it's fine is what I'll remember from this video
Can you test the ZWO FF Telescopes?
They're just rebranded Askar :)
And what about Guidescope Suitability on astronomy tools website. I’m just beginner and start collecting equipment I have no tracking yet but I was thinking for my 8SE on EQ6-R Pro to go with SkyWatcher Startravel 102 it got 500m FL pair this with ASI 120mm mini. At this moment I’m using Nikond5300 and reducer 0.63. On Suitability calculator I got 1:2.45 and I heard that idea is to keep under 1:5 ratio and your calculation it give me 0.97. Is that good pair/match ? I’m asking before I pull a trigger and buy it ? Any help I will appreciate thanks.
Wondering is 0.5 x sideareal rate setting is to try avoid backlash, ie the mount motors are always pushing and not overshooting and having to reverse?
In RA there is no reversing! In DEC, maybe
please review the sv555
I am really curious how well the 2600MM duo would guide through a Sii or Oiii narrowband filter
With dual-band filters, it was fine with 4nm bandpasses and 1-2s exposures. With single band filters, I've seen reports that it works well down to 5nm, or 7nm to be safer with 1s exposures
@@CuivTheLazyGeekthats not bad. I have a 2600MC for my redcat, but I would like to get something close to 800FL and mono but was afraid imaging in something super dim like Sii would give it nothing to guide on
You also have to take into account the optics aperture. For F4 it will likely be fine, for a more refractor typical aperture of F8 (or worse for a SCT with lower aperture), might start being a struggle.
Curious...why is there always 4 downvotes on your videos. I don't get it...competitors?
I don't know either! Now that UA-cam has removed the dislike counter, what you see is an estimate (probably thanks to an extension you installed) but it's close! This video has 3 dislikes (I can still see the exact count on my side). I like to think it's just people who misclicked while trying to hit the like button :p
Hi Cuiv, thanks for the great tutorial! I use PHD2, but every time I the mount slews to a new position PHD2 requires a new calibration, it is very frustrating. I have selected the "Auto restore calibration" option in the advanced settings. Any idea why is this?
Are you using an ST4 cable with On-Camera mount guiding? That's the only situation I can think of where PHD2 would force you to recalibrate each time. Otherwise PHD2 should be perfectly happy to reuse calibration results. If using the ST4 cable, burn the cable immediately, and control your mount via USB
I use only the USB cable and I use the Linux version. I have a Skywatcher AZ EQ-6 mount.
Hi
Hello😊
Hello 😊
Good video Cuiv! Regarding PHD2, I recommend a run through of "Guiding Assistant" at the beginning of every session.
Your video ua-cam.com/video/YCd67zdycWk/v-deo.html at 4:15
Yep! I touch briefly on the guiding assistant in this video! You don't really need to run it before each session if your setup hasn't moved at all though!
Yeah - most of us use PHD2 ... and there is a lot of a dive there. And man, my respect, but there are so many things that can screw the guiding, so you don't even scratched the surface of the video title. No offence. Got a like anyway :)
Hahaha yeah I know! The troubleshooting bit is worth another video in and of itself. Or many!
“Or you are using autoguiding or you wish you are”. Really? Used guiding, I wish I never did. All these fancy developments and we are still on mercy of this procedure. Something not right.
It's a bit of a pain but it's the best solution we have for now... Besides super expensive absolute encoders together with detailed sky modeling!
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!!