Getting the Most out of Buffer Pedals for Guitar and Bass
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
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Mason Marangella from Vertex Effects shows you how to get the most from your buffer pedals with your guitar or bass.
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A good buffer sets the foundation for a great pedalboard! Looking for more tips on your next pedalboard build? Make sure you like, comment, and subscribe!
I am currently building a small on the fly rig with a helix stomp XL - I directly use its 2 effect loops for two overdrive/distortion pedals (Chase Bliss MKII, KSR Vesta) - would you therefore recommend to use buffers in the beginning and the end of the signal chain?
So much misinformation here. You don't need an output buffer. Once a buffer is in place then the only degradation in sound is whatever happens before that first buffer. Anything after that first buffer is either pushed through the following pedal if that following pedal is a true bypass pedal and that following pedal is turned off or it's taken over by the following buffer if a following pedal has a buffer. But the input buffer is all you need to drive a signal far length. There are plenty of demos on UA-cam which will prove that whatever tone differences there are between different buffers are very minor and insignificant. Adding unnecessary additional buffers can affect tone negatively. Between the input buffer and most pedals on the pedalboard which have their own input buffer, it is unnecessary and foolish to add an output buffer. This video is a promotion to get people to spend unnecessary money on unnecessary buffers.
@@AnthonyJarrah Hi Anthony, appreciate reading your post. Your experience is different to mine and your points valid from your perspective. While there are situations where buffers aren’t needed on both ends of a signal chain, I don’t believe we can speak in absolutes. True bypass pedals do jumper from input to output when not engaged, however the patch cables between pedals do exhibit capacitance. And yes, some buffers do have output controls which drive a hotter signal down the signal path, but it’s not a universal across all brands. An improperly positioned and adjusted buffer will for sure have an adverse affect on feel, though the downside of too much roll off due to a lack of high end and clarity is more impactful to me in a negative way. As with all of our information presented, it is just that - information. Not meant to be a one-size-fits-all for everyone in every situation. UA-cam is not the same as hearing and playing a piece of gear in your individual rig so it’s up to each player to decide what is the correct setup for them.
Robert Williams, Senior Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 2371, robert_williams@sweetwater.com
@@sweetwater I will respectfully disagree with your reasoning. The purpose of a buffer is to convert a high impedance guitar signal to a low impedance output signal. Once the signal is converted to low impedance then whatever capacitance is in the following cables and true bypass pedals are insignificant on that low impedance signal. Signal degradation after the buffer would only happen after an extremely long cable run in which case having an additional buffer at the end of your pedal board is like not having an additional one at all since the distance between the first pedal and last pedal are insignificant compared to a 50 foot run afterwards for example. It is important to place the buffer first in the signal chain so that the guitar sees the proper impedance just like plugging directly into the amp. After that then the signal will drive either through following true bypass pedals unaltered or through a following buffered bypass pedal which would be like adding an output buffer anyway. Adding an output buffer is unnecessary and a total waste of money since the output of the first buffer is strong enough to drive long distances should the following pedals be true bypass or it is more likely that there will be at least one buffered bypass pedal after the chain which is like adding another buffer by default anyway.
@@AnthonyJarrah True bypass and buffered pedals do not act as additional dedicated buffers. Buffers in an effects lower impedance and treble loss.
Additionally, the buffers for some pedals are only active when the pedal is on. Signal load is an issue too dependent on the input and output impedance values on a given pedal and or buffer. To categorically say your reasoning is absolute is where I respectfully disagree. It’s really up to the end user to decide.
Robert Williams, Senior Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 2371, robert_williams@sweetwater.com
I've got to admit - I used-to-think all this buffer talk was B.S. - but having done sound test comparison's, it makes a huge difference in both Tone and feel. Great info here.
I used to think the same thing! Then I finally coughed up to $75 and bought a JHS little black box buffer, and it completely restored the high end. What buffer did you end up going with?
If you’re using a compressor pedal that’s always on in the beginning of your signal chain, I’m pretty sure you don’t need a buffer in most cases
@@ramencurry6672WHY?
You thought all that science and stuff was BS...?
@@DaveyMulholland a compressor pedal acts like a signal pusher too. Best to check to see if it works without a buffer in your rig.
I'm learning a lot from you, Mason. Working on my pedal board and taking your suggestions. Things are getting better all the time.
Super helpful, I've watched several of your videos on this "buffer" topic, this is the best explanation I've seen you give. I think I finally understand it now!
I bought the Mesa Boogie High Wire Dual Buffer. I Invested so money but it was my best move. This buffer is fantastic. It's the most important pedal on my board. Thanks Mason!!!
Thank you so much for sharing this information! This is exactly where I’m at and have been trying to sort this out! Very helpful!
4:25-5:20: I would love to see a separate video that talks about buffers specifically with context for bass. I'm currently looking at the Lehle Sunday Driver because of the variable input, but am curious about other options for bass needs. I switch between a Aguilar Tonehammer 500 and Ampeg SVT-CL, depending on the gig, which have 1m and 5.6m input impedance, respectively. I play my Fender Jazz bass passively, but will engage the active pickups occasionally. My pedal board ranges between 10 and 14 effects pedals + a Boss TU-2 tuner.
I'm also wondering if it's be wise to invest in a looper switch to shorten the chain, as an alternative or in addition to a buffer.
Good information. I would have liked to have seen a little more about wet/dry and other stereo setups. Especially using the very popular Radial Engineering products, several which are buffered themselves.
Just built a pedal board for my guitar rig and am using a Poly Tune 3 as an input buffer. When I added that device to my array, I was unaware that I also need an output buffer. Thanks for the video as I now know that I need to buy an output buffer too.
so whats your output buffer?
Great explanation! Small mistake/typo though: the symbol for 1 Meg is an upper case 'M'. A lower case 'm' is actually the abbreviation for milli (10ˆ-3).
... and then there's micro. Causes so many errors.
Outstanding explanation, Mason! Illuminating, for sure! Thank you!
Great and relevant info. In the process of putting a pedalboard together. I'm an old dawg (65) but learning a few new tricks!
Been playing guitar for 45 years and never even heard of these things until recently
Great video man, really usefull ... btw I believe m Ohm Is not megaohm but milliohm, so 1000 time smaller than ohm
Indeed. We should say Mohm for Mega ohm instead of mohm which means milliohm. Anyway, very good video. Thx!
Wow I'm learning everything from you Mason! I ordered the MB High -Wire due to this video! Another great video! I want high quality equipment and your recommendations are spot on! Thanks
This was comprehensive and super helpful!
I could see using the mesa high wire for a dual monobloc amp like the marshall 9200/el34/34 or fryette two ninety two just as a stereo output buffer. Or even just using it as an output buffer on a single amp with an effects loop. Hmmm... lots to think about.
Think I’m going to get the Empress Buffer+. Looks like it’s doing all the best things you showed here.
Great Mason! As usual. I have a few vertex boost pedals and are amazing! I will be ordering from Sweetwater -the Mesa High wire and the Mesa Stowaway and the LEHLE P-SPLIT-for stereo rig as described in this video. Mason, I need to place my Lizard Breath Chameleon op stereo clean boost pedal -to boost overall volume of the entire pedalboard and placed it last in the chain. Can the this stereo boost pedal be placed just before the input return of the High Wire and input of Stowaway -then to Lehle P Split to the two amps? If I use High Wire as clean boost it would only boost left side so I need the signal to be stereo boosted. Thanks Mason for your knowledge as Vertex Pedals and thanks Sweetwater for your years of impeccable service and products!
Just a note here on your notation: 1mOhm = 1 milli Ohm = 10^-3 Ohm
1MOhm = 1 mega Ohm = 10^6 Ohm
this guy is ridiculously well spoken
Hi Mason, I was watching this video again and stopped on this thing that I'm curious about. You say that a good input output ratio for a dedicated electric guitar buffer is 1Moh / 100ohm (the lower the output the better).
I checked my Empress Buffer+ and I noticed that the output is really high: 510 Ω and yet it is considered a very good buffer...
What is the interpretation? The same as the MXR? Thanks!
Great and straight presentation. Thanks!
I know what you meant, but your graphic at 3:42 is specifying 1 milli-ohm, not 1 Meg-ohm. It has been decades (more than a half-century) since essentially all standards committees on the planet agreed that lower case 'm' is the abbreviation signifying milli (one one-thousandth), and upper case 'M" as Meg (one million).
I have a ES-8 and Mesa boogie high wire. I also have two H9’s.You need to do a video on how to set this up. Trying to figure it out for weeks.
You can use the two H9's in your stereo loops 7 and 8. Loop 7 will be a mono send, but stereo return and loop 8 will be stereo send and return. High wire will go outside of the ES-8 input and output to be your input and output buffers for the rig, however you'll need one more output buffer to collect the stereo output from the ES-8 if you plan to run your H9 in stereo. If it's just in mono, no further buffering will be needed. You'll also need to bypass the buffers in the ES-8 globals since you'll have the High Wire doing that for you.
Is there a diagram or a schematic to do this. Like I said I’m pretty new to this.
@@robertreynoldsjr7044 They have wiring suggestions in the ES-8 manual.
If your first pedal takes over for the input buffer, why even have one? Why not just have an output buffer?
What about acoustic guitars? Because of the pickups/preamps are active, so they’re unnecessary? I have one with a B-Band pickup, generally going into an AER Compact 60, and another with a Fishman as well. What about if you’re plugging your electric into your audio interface?
Boss Buffers are good enough. Just ask Brad Bradshaw or Pete Cornish.
Soooooo. Why not just have an output buffer at the end of the chain????
Take a drink every time Mason says "Buffer"
I just bought a Peterson Tuner that have a buffer with 5 mOhm input and 100 ohm output. Why is the input 5mOhm and not 1mOhm? I guess it's because the Tuner is used for more than just a guitar? What kind of difference will this make to my sound?
m Ω is milli ohm, M Ω is mega ohm, which one is it in the video, he said mega but the symbol showed lowercase m?
Good info
Great tutorial. Can you also explain the chain if you use a stomp box style pre-amp together with all other pedals and go straight to the line mixer (FOH / powered monitor speaker) via direct box?
Hi, eddysel10. It depends on the pedal you’re using. If you’re doing something like the Strymon Iridium where it is modeling the amp and cabinet, you’d likely want to put that at the very end of your chain, since it is essentially replacing an amplifier in your rig. If you’re doing more of an Amp In a Box style preamp pedal, that would typically go in between your drive pedals and time based effects. In that situation, you would still want some sort of cab simulator at the end of the chain for going direct.
Thanks for your interest!
Charlie Davis, Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 1320, charlie_davis@sweetwater.com
Great explanation. But so the first pedal that that’s been switched on takes the control buffering wise, no matters what was before it?
Thanks man appreciate you.
So what you're saying is...
My new band name should be,
"Bad Buffer" 🤘😎
I love it! Evan and the Bad Buffers!
1m ohm is one milliohm 1M ohm is one Megaohm. Big difference with upper and smaller case “m”
I just purchased a Mesa Stowaway yesterday. It's labeled as an "input buffer", and Mesa recommends the High Wire at the end. Is there any difference in putting another Stowaway at the end instead? Thanks.
Very good!
Good grief, this is great information.
SansAmp preamp has good buffer?
Hello i have a neunaber wet stereo reverb and it has input: 1M ohm and output: 500 ohm. My Idea: TC Bonafide at the beginning and my Neunaber at the end?
500 ohms is OK, the lower the better. You might compare what happens if you got down to 100 ohm with a higher quality buffer. A lot of it will depend on the cable you use on the output and how good the buffer in the Neunaber is at driving that capacitance.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks👍
So the Sunday Driver has an output impedence of 220ohm. That is fine for an output buffer even though it's higher than the 100ohm desired output impedence?
So, I’m using a stereo rig coming from out L and R from my last pedal. Supposing I’ll put the Mesa Boogie for the left out and the other Mesa for the right side, where is the Lehle came? Where do I put it in the signal chain?
Ok help me out. Signal chain wise, how do I use the high wire if I am leveraging some pedals that go in front of amp (wah, distortion, phaser) and some pedals in my effects loop (chorus, delay, reverb, term)? My EVH has an effects loop, but I am getting tone suck. Do I need two high wires? One? Nobody really explains the full signal chain setup. Thanks!
How do you attach a Lehle Sunday Driver to your pedalboard??
Do you have any recommendations for velcroing/fastening a Lehle Sunday Driver to a pedalboard??
This is great. Question... I'm planning on buying the High Wire for my front end chain, but I also run my modulations and delays through the fx loop. Would you recommend only getting an output buffer for the fx loop on the return? Or would it behoove me to buy something like the Kleinulator to basically create a whole new fx loop with a stronger signal?
Hey, Mike! Great question, and thanks for your interest. Mason Marangella actually also has a great video answering this question (when to have both input and FX loop buffers, where to put them and recommendations for what to get):
ua-cam.com/video/V6oLPxFoNcs/v-deo.html
I hope this helps! If you have any other questions, feel free to reach out to me directly.
Connor Smith, Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 1793, connor_smith@sweetwater.com
Would you recommend an input buffer for the return in the effects loop or something more like the Mesa Clearlink Receive?
Hi I just received a BPI buffer from Caveman Audio . I also have a BPI pre amp by Caveman, I'm not sure if you have heard of them However I seem to
be a little confused where to put it and also hooking it up.
Do I need to have it before or after my pedal board . The buffer is a dual buffer.
sorry if I'm a little confusing but I am new to this , I have seven pedal to my board
3:45 @ The ‘m’ (mili) should be written as ‘M’ (mega).
Why will no one say what exactly IS the JHS LBB? Josh won't say, because he's a born shyster, but someone out there has opened one, surely.
Does this setup seem good?
My setup currently is a line 6 g10s as my first buffer, then a couple pedals, a tc electronic polytune with the bonafide buffer, then in to my amps fx loop, a couple more pedals, then a jhs little black buffer, then in to the return input.
*Note that all of the pedals are true bypass except for the buffers I listed
Sounds good. You should have more than enough high end. How does is it sound compared to straight into the amp? Some people like a little tone roll off, but that’s a personal preference.
Yeah I like it. I try to avoid at much roll off as possible
Did he say that the Mesa Boogie Stowaway is an output buffer?
I think by mistake, because it's labeled as an input buffer. However, having said that, if you didn't have access to the High-Wire, then you could get two of the Stowaways and have the same functions of the in+out buffer system.
What do u suggest for a g system
Good for bass too?
Hello, rafaelgcarvalho9836! Yes a buffer is definitely a good idea for bass too! Give us a shout and we can discuss in more depth!
Thanks for the interest!
James Masterson, Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 1641, james_masterson@sweetwater.com
So the High wire is or isn’t good for bass because the ohm is 1 and not 2?
Hello, Austin! Correct. The output on there will work fine going into a bass amp, but the input impedance is not desired. It's not necessarily needed to have an input buffer if you're using a bass with active electronics, or a wireless system, though. So I'd probably just stick with a single output buffer for running your signal to your amp.
Thanks for the interest!
Kevin Spunde, Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 1732, Kevin_Spunde@Sweetwater.com
On a stereo rig, does the P-Split go before or after the buffer?
Thanks for your question Cesar, hope you’re well.
Some vintage effects don’t play well with buffers so placement depends on the effects in series before the amps after the split. It’s always a good idea to experiment, you may actually prefer a buffer at the end of one of the chains.
Please contact us direct with other questions as you have them!
Robert Williams, Senior Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 2371, robert_williams@sweetwater.com
Would you say that having a polytune with buffer on at the top of the chain and a lehle at the end is enough for a bass rig with no more than 6/7 pedals ? Thaaaaaaanks
Sounds just right, actually really good :-)
Mason and others say they don’t like the boss or polytune buffers that come in tuners. As they say they are outdated in someway I don’t understand
@@UnleashDLion nope!! Polytune is fine 😀
If my Ampeg PF-50T Bass Amp has an in input impedance of 1M Ohms. Is that gonna be my target input impedance or should I still look for a higher impedence?
Following- same question.
Does the TC electronic buffer work well as an input buffer?
Hello, Oscar! Yes, that would work as a buffer no matter where it is in your signal chain. But I recommend running it at the end of your signal chain. Thanks for the interest!
Kevin Spunde, Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 1732, Kevin_Spunde@Sweetwater.com
hello if we need 1 megOhm at the beginning of the pedalboard, do we still need a buffer if we use a jaguar guitar with 1 megOhm potentiometers ?
Yes. The jag impedance is actually less than 1M since one or two pickups is in parallel with the volume pot. What you want is a match between buffer and guitar impedance. Having the buffer impedance higher than the guitar is OK.
With all that said... don't worry about it. Any buffer will work fine with any guitar. The jag is super bright, so a buffer is a good way to preserve that tone.
Do I need a buffer on a Rhodes or synth going into guitar pedals?
Hi, Joseph! Thanks for your interest. In general, it's not as important to use a buffer with a keyboard as with a guitar or bass. If you have a vintage Rhodes with passive pickups, you still may want to use a buffer for the same reasons of impedance that Mason outlines in this video. If you have a keyboard that outputs line-level signal, like most modern synths, the important thing will be to keep an eye on your volume level so you don't overload the input of a pedal that's designed for instrument-level signals. Beyond that, it's just a matter of trial-and-error and finding the sound that works for you. Hope this helps - feel free to contact me directly with any further questions, and thanks again!
Caleb Lowrey, Sweetwater Sales Engineer, (800) 222-4700 ext. 1620, caleb_lowrey@sweetwater.com
Fender level has 10K Ohm . Too much ! I wanted to buy But thanks to you i pass