What surprises me is not that the theory of Kris being The Knight exists. What surprises me is that SO many people IMMEDIATELY jump to that conclusion after seeing Kris open a dark fountain even though we were told TEN MINUTES AGO that any Lightner with enough determination could do it.
fr fr like we almost watched Berdly open up a fountain. Did Kris open the 1st dark world? Maybe, maybe not. I am 99% sure they didn't open the second chapter dark world.
I think the reason that Kris opening a fountain provides strong Kris knight evidence is not because to proves they can, it's because it proves they want to. After being told about the roaring, it is very strange to choose to open more fountains, unless one is the Roaring Knight.
@@emilia935Somewhat, but, the way Ralsei says it implies that, so long they close it, it should be fine, so you could argue Kris is running on the assumption that, so long as they seal the fountain at the end of the day, it'll all be fine and the Roaring doesnt happen
@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard Absolutely, there are ways to explain this. I don't think Kris is the knight. I just don't think we should throw this out as worthless, when if it was the only piece of evidence we had, it would be quite strong. I would also ask why Kris opens a fountain even after the Snowgrave Route? I would assume that he would have hated what he was forced to do to Noelle, and would have a strong desire to avoid that happening again.
well the queen DID go on a spiel about the knights BLADE opening the fountain, their hand reaching and so on and forth, while giving clear visual indication that this is what Chris does at the end of chapter two, using his knife.
Despite disagreeing with you, I'd like to thank you for being respectful, good debate is always welcome. Either way, Kris Knight is pretty much certain to be either confirmed or debunked in Chapter 3. If a single Darkner in CH3 says that the Knight created this world, then Kris Knight is hard confirmed, or on the other hand, if they refer to the creator of the world by some different title like "Squire", then it's hard debunked. Unless Toby deliberately keeps things vague, of course...
6:16 That argument feels a bit silly.. We know from chapter one that it is possible to move in the real world while you are in the dark world (moving from the storage closet to the unused classroom).
@unluckybean2800 I could be wrong here, but after defeating a secret boss, don't we leave the dark world with their item in our light world inventory? their item going from wherever they were in the room before to inside our pocket could explain why their books moved. I think they could have just carried them like, unconsciously? Not likely but possible
@@unluckybean2800 Why? They didn’t have any bags or anything, they just carry their books in their arms. Why is it unreasonable to assume their books could have just ended up on the table?
I don't think kris is the knight, but i didn't think "a large person could easily fit inside here" was a reference to the knight. I thought it was the place where they would hide the body of berdly after the snowgrave route the first time i saw it.
@@redbush5483 It was my first impression. Second thought was that it could fit the knight (papyrus could easily fit there) but there is an alternative explanation for why that text is there
Yeah, that sentence it does not confirm that the Knight was in there. I'd like to add that also does not confirm that Kris hid Berdly in there. It just shows possibilities to the player.
@@redbush5483I think the wording messes with people a lot on this one. Just because a large person could fit inside doesn’t mean it’s like a Lego brick specifically made to be a perfect match for a large person. If someone who’s 6’5 could fit in a closet like a glove, I can DEFINITELY fit in the same closet, y’know?
I feel the "Noelle would be too scared" argument is a bit weak. First, Kris and Susie were hesitant, but they still entered the room. They thought flipping the light switch would solve it because when confronted with something unfamiliar, people sometimes try to make sense of it by likening it to something understandable. Secondly, and more importantly, Berdly is absolutely boneheaded enough to just walk in there. I can imagine the scene going something like this: Berdly: Fear not Noelle, for though you may be too meek to enter the unlit room, I, Berdley, the smartest student in the school, am not frightened by superstitions of ghosts in the dark. Noelle: Aren't your neighbors ghosts? Berdly: I shall now enlighten the room like how I am enlightened! Noelle: Berdly wait, I think there's more to it than that! (she then follows him into the room, and the rest of the game ensues)
Definitely a possible scenario character-wise lol. But... would they not remember that? Darkness billowing out of a room surprisingly and the weird non-euclidian geometry within? Kris and Susie remembered going into the closet for the first time and all the darkness shenanigans that went on beforehand, why wouldn't they? There's an argument to be made that they do remember, but never talk about it during the cyber world adventure, and then at the end of the chapter chock it up to being part of their dream. That makes enough sense but... in that case they would have to ignore their lack of memory of how they actually got into the computer lab, still causing a contradiction. Berdly is an idiot, but he's also a stickler for details. If he remembered all of that would he really go along with the dream talk? Would he not say something like "But Noelle! Don't you remember my bravery? I charged into the darkness like a true knight in glow in the dark armor!" Again, it's entirely possible you're right, but it relies on neither Noelle or Berdly ever thinking about what happened before they passed out, instead of them just studying, the lights go out, and they're in the dark world/a dream.
It is simple . The Dark World was made the Night before. So, the Computer room just looks like a Dark Room. And then during the Day, Berdly and Noelle would simply be walking into a Dark Room. No Smoke. Just Darkness. Also, Berdly told Noelle he liked Susie, and she strangled the crap out of him, but if it is a dream, then he didn't actually say that. A useful Narrative for his Ego. @@guiltyflygon
I think how the Chapter 2 dark world was formed can mean one of two things; Absolutely nothing, because its not important and the characters don't find the need to mention it, or it could be a key piece of evidence. Until we see how Kris acts in chapters three and four (now coming even sooner!) and how others like Toriel react to being woken up in a dark world versus entering one like Kris and Susie did in chapter 1, we can't say for sure if chapter 2's dark world is meant to be overlooked and treated as a unimportant as the characters do, or if its actually meant to have something deeper to it and not just be a handwave (albeit not that lazy of one, as it actively says someone could have been hiding in the closet and made the dark world behind Berdly and Noelle, who are coincidentally facing away from that very same closet when they wake up...)
I tend to believe that they could get into the room, if if it's dark. Berdly is that type of person that would go inside of the dark room to find the switch. Noelle might go along him because he's leading the path. However, how would both of them be sitting at the table after coming back from the Dark World? Would they go into the dark room, find no switches, sit at the table and study using books and notebooks with no light? I find that too hard to believe. One can say that they could have moved while asleep as Kris and Susie did in chapter one, but I think it would be such a big coincidence that they would sit at the table while moving, also Susie and Kris were at the entrance of the computer lab when they went back from the Dark World. It seems to me that they were more likely to be sitting while studying, without the Dark World yet, than moving from somewhere in the room to sit perfectly in the chairs next to the table. Therefore, I don't believe that there was a Dark World in the computer lab when Noelle and Berdly enteredd the room.
Simple. When a Lightner moves in the Dark World, they move location in the Light World. See Chapter One where Kris and Susie go into Closet but end up in the side room where the Card Kingdom was. And they don't sit down , they fall on top of the Table. Like they appeared at the table, and fell on it.@@marcelolupatini5553
7:41 it's quite easy to explain. That's right, Noel wouldn't have entered such a room alone, but you have to remember that Berdly was with her. It probably looked like this: They open the door and see darkness. Noel senses that something is wrong and wants to back out, but Berdly, seeing her fear, begins to rationalize the situation and play the hero (even if he is concerned himself), because his ego will not allow him to do otherwise. Noel, under pressure from her friend, enters the room with him, looking for the light switch, and they fall into the Dark World.
@@PlackowiczAgain another ‘it’s a plot hole’ theory by saying he just didn’t expect people to check. Okay my theory is that Kris I actually Jesus, proof? It’s a plot hole there you go
15:28 I would like to point out that falling asleep while teaching is out of character for Berdly and Noel. They are both quite diligent students, especially Berdly, who would not fall asleep while studying. Noel, on the other hand, knows that Susie will be coming to the library soon to study with them, so she should be all tense.
the only 2 reasons they would be asleep would be that the Knight put them to sleep before creating the dark world (at which they would be asleep in the dark world). or as it's suggested (somewhere i don't know) Ralsei put them to sleep to make Susies claim about it being a dream more legit
@@theprinceofawesomeness We can't deny or approve your first theory, but I can argue with the second one. After beating snowgrave Noel wakes up in the computers room, just like in the normal rout, but this time Ralsei wasn't there, but he was with the queen at all time, and Noel was with us while we were closing a fountain. This prooves that you fall asleep after leaving the dark world, or at least that it wasn't Ralsei's work.
@@Plackowicz my 1st wasn't a theory but just a bat shit insane statement for the argument that the Knight was creating the fountain with them in the room. the other is just something that i heard as to explain why Noelle and Berdly are asleep. FACT: after the dark world stops excising Berdly and Noelle is asleep, nether Susie nor Kris is a sleep in ether chapter after the fountains are closed. Speculation: ether Susie and Kris is Special and don't fall asleep or someone put Berdly and Noelle to sleep
@@Plackowicz Noelle(not Noel) was implictly in her bed at the end of Snowgrave. Susie specifically went to go check on her. She got up when Kris called her, but she was specifically in a trance or trance-like state. Hence why she was able to hear them at all, despite the distance between them.
@@Missingno_Miner What are u talking about? Noelle freezed Spamton, Kris closed the dark fountain, everyone except Berdly wakes up in the Computers room. At the end of the rout, maybe, but it does't matter in this discussion.
i like how the evidence in favor of kris knight is "they're literally a knight" "they literally open a dark fountain" and the evidence against it is "there's some small things that don't line up" i don't think its 100% likely that they're the knight but the community has gaslit themselves a little
I recently heard others agree with this take so I’m more inclined to share it: I don’t think the Knight’s identity is necessarily supposed to be a mysterious whodunnit situation. It would be up Toby’s alley to make the Knight a recognizable character that excites people, but I think, given how little we know about the Knight’s identity and the way that we aren’t necessarily encouraged to figure out who exactly the Knight is by the game, it’s completely possible that the Knight is a completely original character or one we haven’t been formally introduced to.
one thing that always gets me is how many people seem to ignore or not know about "Last Thursday-ism" while I think that's the most crucial part to these timeline discrepancies. How can Sweet Cap'n Cakes have had a relationship with Queen BEFORE their world was created? Since Queen says the world was created TODAY and Sweet and the gang talk about how she was different before the knight showed up. Last Thursdayism is the belief that all of your thoughts, memories, relationships, and your entire world were created on Last Thursday, and there's no way to disprove that. I think that's the central concept in the dark worlds. The relationships between Spamton, Mike, Jevil, Queen, Cakes, all the darkners, it's all created retroactively stretching from before the Dark world began.
I can see where you’re coming from with this, but there are a few major holes in this idea: Darkners from other Dark Worlds knowing about each other from before their fountains were opened despite the immense distance between them and the objects that they're based on seemingly having no connection that could be used to create retroactive memories (i.e. King and Queen, Spamton and Jevil, and Tasque Manager recognizing Jevil if you have the Devilsknife or Jevilstail equipped when you fight her), Gaster being capable of contacting the secret bosses and driving them insane in the first place, and a good chunk of the lore revealed to us in the Spamton Sweepstakes.
I also don't support the Last Thursdayism theory for a very good reason - it would be incredibly lame. It would mean that every Darkner's backstory is fake and didn't really happen, which robs all of them of any meaning. Feel sad for Spamton's tragic past? Don't be, because none of that ever happened! I think the best solution is to think that Dark Worlds have *some* kind of existence prior to the Fountains opening, and that the Dark Worlds function as something kinda like a "lower level" of reality that happens to be based on Light World objects somehow. To be honest, the whole thing is really messy and confusing because Toby seems to be trying to imply that they both do and don't pre-exist the creation of the Fountains. Hopefully he'll clear it up at some point in the future, but if not, I think we should go with the assumption that's most interesting.
@@CantusTropus Yes, this exactly! I agree with your reasoning wholeheartedly, I was just focused on trying to debunk it from a logistical standpoint. From the very beginning I’ve always seen it as a sort of meta-commentary on the relationship of reality and fiction and the layers between them; Darkners are real people with their own thoughts, feelings, and relationships in the Dark World but are merely inanimate objects in the Light World prior to the Fountains opening, just like how the characters of UTDR are real people with their own thoughts, feelings, and relationships in their respective games but are merely pixels on a screen to us players. However, the Dark World can affect the Light World like how the Light World can affect the Dark World, and UTDR can affect us and Toby Fox like how we and Toby Fox can affect UTDR. This is what I feel could possibly be the Knight’s motive or at least one of their motives (wanting the Darkners to exist in the Light World as well and getting other people to see that they’re real people), what most likely drove the secret bosses insane (finding out that they and everything and everyone around them is just a bunch of inanimate objects in a different layer of reality and that they aren’t considered “real” outside of the Dark World), and what I think will ultimately tie into the full game’s central theme and endgame. “Why do you care so much about whether this world lives or dies? It’s not your reality, its continued existence or complete destruction won’t affect your world in any meaningful way.” “It doesn’t matter if it’s the ‘real’ world to me or not. It’s the real world for the people who live in it, and that alone makes it worth saving.”
Because they existed as ideas way before the dark fountains were ever opened. The fountains only gave them a corporeal form, for a short period of time.
Most of the points in this video are total junk based only on biased interpretation or are just flat out strawmen. For just one example, at 8:40 to 9:15 when you say it's impossible for Kris to have opened the fountain in midday, which yes, it is impossible for that to be the case, *but that was never the case that Kris knight supporters argued in the first place.* Everyone who accepts that Kris Knight is possible, which it is, *argues that it would have been in the early hours of the morning that day, when it was still dark out, that it happened.* You can't just construct a strawman out of the fact that it couldn't have been done by Kris in the daylight hours and say that it "100% disproves Kris Knight". That's just arguing in bad faith. Every other point in the video, as I said, is based only on biased, or flat out contradictory, interpretations, or is a strawman, and I will gladly explain how each point is so if anyone is interested.
Ultimately, I prefer Black Chestnut's arguments in favour of Kris Knight - namely, that it is far and away the simplest and most natural conclusion to come to for someone playing through the game without them getting knee-deep in the weeds of the Theory Community. Every other theory involves not only massive amounts of speculation, but also requires you to assume that the Weird Red Flags about Kris (end cutscenes of both Ch 1 and Ch 2 most notably) are ALL red herrings meant to distract you. Why would Toby even bother throwing that many fakeouts? For instance, the ending of Chapter 2 is either the reveal of Kris Knight or else a HUGE red herring, and one that can only really work specifically because we are currently in the middle of a hiatus - once Deltarune is actually finished, a player will go right onto Chapter 3 mere minutes after seeing Kris open the third Dark World, and it's very likely that Kris Knight will either be proven or debunked in said chapter (all it takes is a single Darkner in Chapter 3 saying that the Knight created this world, or else identifying someone other than the Knight as the creator). So if Chapter 2's ending is a fakeout, then it's a fakeout that in the finished game will only work for like 20 minutes. That seems really odd.
That reasoning doesn't work when we only have 2 chapters available. The fake out works cuz toby knew that the time between ch2 and ch3 would be massive
@@scantyer I don't think you understood their argument. They were saying the exact same thing you are saying, that the fake out works because there are only two chapters right now but soon there will be more and their will also be new players. Imagine a new player seeing the ending to chapters 2 believing that Kris is the knight, because that's obviously what the ending wants you to think even if it's a fake out, and then they play through the rest of the game and see that actually Kris wasn't the knight and so ending chapter 2 like that was completely pointless. This person is arguing that Toby wouldn't write a fake out that only works during the wait period for chapter 3 and 4 since he knows most players in the future won't be present for that
I don't think your evidence makes it impossible for Kris to be the knight. Kris's slow shambling movements could be temporary after removing the soul or it could be a stylistic choice to appear creepy. Also, Kris and Susie wake up in a classroom full objects representing the dark world they just traversed despite entering from the closet, meaning one's position can and does change when in the dark world. I'd argue that it actually intentionally places people in positions that allow them to rationalize what happened (ie Kris and Susie wake up in a classroom with similar objects and Noelle and Berdly wake up from "napping" during studying.) I still think it's entirely within the realm of possibility that Kris opened the dark portal the night before Chapter 2. If anything, Noelle and Berdly believing it was a dream the same way Susie did makes total sense and gives a perfect explanation to the strange magical qualities of the dark world and how it messes with people. Is it constructed with cold, hard logic? No. But it's a story with magic and alternate worlds, so it's going to have to bend the rules a little to give us a mystery that properly engages with the fantastical systems at play. I think calling it a "plot hole" or "bad writing" is a bit of a bad faith argument against the dark world having the ability to manipulate the position and surroundings of people within the dark world, since chapter 1 already established that it was possible. I also think calling the knight the main antagonist is a bit too hasty with how little we really know about the full story so far. Of course, I think it's impossible to say Kris is definitively the knight, but I also don't understand the insistence that Kris CAN'T be the knight or that it would be boring, since personally I think Kris would be one of the more interesting candidates. I think a lot of the evidence you and Spooky brought up are a bit extraneous and don't really prove much if you shift around dialogue meanings and other semantics.
(Respectfully) I really feel that Noelle and Birdly sitting like that is just video game logic / the fact we don’t know how exactly fountains function. Like they could have been doing anything after the fountain closed. Its not a plot hole- its just inconsequential to the story so the writers decided “oh Noelle thinks its a dream so she wakes up as if she was napping”. If they were just all standing in a circle together it would be weird if Noelle was like “oh haha I just dreamt while standing up”. Ultimately there is no rule that says when a fountain closes you must be in some position. ~ Either way I’d like to clarify I enjoyed the video. I just feel that similar to Spookydude’s video, any theory claiming Kris *CANT* be the knight isn’t actually that solid. I think its totally possible that they aren’t, but as of now they are the simplest answer that the average non-theorist player can foresee. I went on a ramble about this in other videos but writers aren’t writing for theorists- they’re writing for the average audience. Kris COULD totally be a red herring, but as of now hard evidence of this being a red herring is… lacking. There’s only minor points that make it possible.
@@catdownthestreet as a fellow indie developer, Toby may be the writer but it’s highly unlikely he doesnt at least bounce ideas off friends. If he does work alone for the story then honestly just. Wow thats gutsy lol
@@ABDERAMBL Isn't he basing the entire game off of a fever dream? Also, about the 'Kris is Knight' theory, there was actually a scrapped intro sequence in which Team Friendship would walk up a staircase, past shadowed bosses. At the end of the staircase, they'd confront the Knight. So, unless there's somehow two Krisses in that intro sequence (which I don't find likely), I think it rules out any of Team Friendship.
@@dominickeijzer5844 1. It could easily be that the knight appearing is a metaphor- intros are rarely based in reality. 2. No- he specifically said he dreamt the ending of Deltarune. Even then i doubt his brain invented every single charachter in that instance it was probably just the vague premise lol
I'm personally still holding on to my theory that Kris just did this for selfish reasons and the fact someone else opened a dark world is going to tip the Knight off that someone's onto it.
That’s what I was thinking, they slashed the tires so that Susie would stay over, and left the door open to let Undyne in to prove dark worlds exist, but mostly, they wanted another adventure with their best friend Susie, for whom they think can break the strings on their soul.
Objection! The defense is using strong language such as "impossible" and "plothole" in an attempt to lead this court, your honor. The defense's case hinges on the assumption that, once a Dark Fountain is sealed, one would appear in the exact same same spot they were before. This assumption is false. Kris and Susie weren't transported back to the closet when the Card Kingdom Fountain was sealed. And they didn't appear at the door when the Cyber World Fountain was sealed either. Furtermore, the defense's proposed timeline of events does not match reality. To prove that, I'd like to call in a new witness: Plug Girl: "Recently, something called 'Internet' is having an 'outage'. Some say it was the secret to Queen's know-how. Since then, it seems like she's become quite extreme..." According to this witness, Queen's change in behavior coincided with the internet outage. According to our previous witnesses, Queen's change in behavior coincided with the Dark Fountain being created. If we put these two testimonies together, it reveals that the Dark Fountain being made coincided with the internet outage. I have a written affidavit from a teacher in the local school, stating that the internet was already out at the early hours of the previous night. This contradiction exposes the defense's proposed timeline as the conjecture it really is. This crime happened in the previous night, and even the defense admits the defendant's alibi for that time cannot be verified.
Subjective addition. It is very likely the Dark Fountain creation is actually what knocked out the Internet. Which the Knight probably knew would happen, thus making the Queen the way she is. Further, that would direct Noelle and Berdly actions because now, they cannot do their assignment at their own houses and sent it. They have to go to the computer lab to print it there. Plus, they won't be able to stay separate physically, and , like, Skype.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 This is incorrect. Queen says in her battle that the town's internet disappeared, then the Knight created the Fountain. I am so sorry. It was a nice theory.
Perhaps. I get the feeling that if Queen still had access to the "Internet" , she might not be a proper Boss for this world. Because the Lightners can no longer "click to feel pleasure" and "click to avoid pain" she is given a Motive. Further , it cuts off continued access to Kris's search history... @@gabrielrochadasilva3183
And yes, the Fountain doesn't have to directly cause the Internet to go down. But I would also like to point out that before the Dark Fountain gets made, The Queen is just a laptop. She isn't alive to witness the Internet disappearing, and she isn't aware she "saw" the Fountains creation until she watches the video her body made before she started existing. So, she is literally guessing the timing of events, like she is literally guessing/"calculating" most of the things she does.. However, this all still means Both the Dark Fountain and the Queen were made by the Knight the Night before. And the Implication is the Knight cut off the Internet specifically to give Queen her Villainous motive (No Internet means Queen will speculate expanding the Dark World can replace the Internet for Lightners, making her Dangerous)@@gabrielrochadasilva3183
13:37 It was never established that when you get out of a Dark Fountain you have to be in the place you were when you entered it. For example: Kris and Susie entered Ralsei's Dark Fountain, but then they woke up in the other room with the closet and chess stuff.
that's because once they entered the Gold doors to the right of Ralsei's Dark fountain, they entered that Dark world classroom. There's a door leading to the closet in the unused classroom. It wouldn't make sense to basically teleport into Ralsei's Dark fountain after the Classroom fountain closed, since they aren't in the closet anymore.
@@Natalie-nv5iq yes I know, that's literally my point, they don't wake up from the dark fountain in the same position as they enter, exactly like it may have happened with Noelle and Berdeley.
@@loubaxo9339 But those are completely different circumstances? One involves moving from one dark world to another, and the other involves just one dark fountain.
@@loubaxo9339 There also isnt any evidence that you randomly move somewhere else and there definitely isnt any evidence that entering a dark world takes the things you are carrying and places them somewhere in the room. Infact its the opposite. You keep all of the objects you enter with with you. Nevermind the fact that the cyber world dark fountain is the only one we have actually seen the exiting process of. When Kris and Susie existed the unused classroom fountain it was dark and they stumbled around. No Idea where they appeared. All of the circumstantial evidence points to you exiting the dark world where you entered it.
I don't know why all these theories insist that Noelle and Berdly need to have been seated where they woke up when the fountain was created considering that Kris and Susie ended up in a completely different location when exiting the Dark World in Chapter 1
There's a difference for that. The closet is Ralsei's dark world. The great door, which they go through, is the door to the unused classroom. They enter a whole new room. For the library, there's one room. Also, why would the dark world magically have all their study equipment in the perfect place if they hadn't put it there?
we honestly have 0 actual evidence of anyone being the Knight, but i can only say that for all laws of story telling Kris should be the knight and the end of Cha 2 it's revealed to us. any other scenario with the current evidence is hard to make satisfying (it could be done but i don't think toby could pull it of)
disagreed. the identity of the Knight is a mystery, so it's obvious it won't be revealed until the very end. and theres no laws of storytelling that prevent misdirections taking place.
@@TrixyTrixter exactly. with the *current* evidence. Deltarune isn't even finished, so saying that "with the current evidence, Kris knight is the only solid choice" when we don't even have all the needed information (we aren't even half in the story) is stupid. of course we won't get all the information 2/7 in the actual game.
also, i feel like if you were told "manipulating someone into stabbing the ground will create a paradise," and then suddenly, easily manipulatable teens show up, you'd be like, "damn, guess im creating paradise." and then, that very guy comes back, trying to stop you, you'd be like "uh bro? what the hell? im trying to create a paradise YOU told me about, what are you doing?" in my mind, i feel like queen would immediatly mention this.
The Queen didn't see the Knight's Face as a Laptop in the Light World, just their Knife and Hand. The Paradise idea is just connections she made by herself. Incorrect assumptions made to please "her gods"./Lightners. Using the Dark World to replace the Internet she cannot access anymore for Lightner entertainment.
Queen admits she never met the Knight and was working based off of assumptions, and the recording of the Fountain opening explicitly states that there's too much smoke to tell who's standing there. That means Queen doesn't actually know the Knight's appearance or motivation.
After watching the entire video, I can debunk every single claim in it Every single one But it would be a ton of work so I will only do it if at least one person says they're interested Just let me know
I always enjoy when people respectfully disagree with another person's theory. There's too much hate that people spread around cause of a difference in opinion over a game. Great Video!
I dont think that Noelle and Berdly's positions really matter when it comes to this argument. It can be assumed that in a room with a dark fountain in it, the room briefly becomes a void, just like we see in chapter 1. Its likely that all the walls disappear, which means it's likely all the tables disappear too. If the tables are gone, its very believable to think that Noelle and Berdly walked in, tried to find a light switch, but couldn't. Then they thought "maybe its on the back of the wall?" Attempted to walk back there, but eventually finally fell into the dark world, dropping their books on the ground where the table would be. Nothing about that scenario seems like a strech to me. When they woke up, they and their books were placed right where it would make sense for them to be, just like Kris and Susie in both chapter 1 and 2. Noelle and Berdly. Noelle and Berdly laying down on the table with their books down is very weak evidence at best, and at worst, maybe even disproves the idea that the dark fountain was created with them inside. We see that making a dark fountain takes a few seconds, and unless Kris has some supernatural powers able to withstand the pouring darkness, you are fully able to walk around before the darkness resches you. That is PLENTY of time for Noelle and Berdly to walk out of the room. You are telling me, that some random guy jumped out of the closet, violently stabbed the earth and sent a bright explosion directly into the pupils of two kids, and they didnt freak out?? They just sat politely in their seats and immediately fell asleep? I find it much more likely that they would have ran away screaming, or that they would have at least some sort of vague memory of seeing the knight. I feel like Kris could have easily had enough energy to make it to the library during the night. We see them chuck their heart at the birdcage with more power than a baseball pitcher and then they jump through their bathroom window with the finesse of a ballerina. Getting in and out of the lab seems like a minor enough detail to be ignored, and its likely that the town is so safe that many people just leave their doors unlocked. It's definitely got that vibe. Not to mention, the knight hiding in the closet... Just feels so juvenile. Like its some (presumably grown man) hiding in a closet for two random kids to arrive and freak them out. Doesn't feel like something the "Roaring Knight" would be seen doing unless they needed Noelle and Berdly, which I doubt they did.
Perhaps the knight made the dark fountain while inside the closet. I mean, a giant flash of light from inside the closet would be hard to overlook, but then again it would also be pretty hard to sleep through a giant flash of light that's a couple feet away from you. The creation of a dark fountain is apparently more stealthy than it may first appear. The only thing we can confirm is that someone who walked into a dark world will be able to remember walking into it after they leave, even if they think everything after that was a dream. This would've been the perfect place to have them ask how the lights came on or have them reference the bizarrely dark room in any way, but Toby only has them acknowledge that they entered the computer lab and fell asleep. Also, yeah the knight being forced to hide in the closet would be kinda goofy, which slots him perfectly among the ranks of the other kinda goofy Undertale/Deltarune villains like Asgore, Flowey, Spade King, etc. Hell, the chapter literally ends with the main villain actually learning what her evil plot does and just declaring herself to be a good guy, Deltarune ain't afraid to be a bit goofy.
when kris makes the fountain in chapter 2 the sound that plays is literally called !snd_fountain_make" but my theory is that the knight is a whole new character and not anyone from hometown (maybe dess but she is missing)
7:27 - You do realize that entry rooms to Dark Worlds having non-normal geometries works *against* your argument, not *in favor of* it, right? - It means that you just straight-up can't determine movement in these rooms for certain one way or another. Incidentally, there is another thing to note about your video: You claim that Noelle and Berdly are _sitting_ at the table with their heads resting on it. That's not true. They aren't sitting at the table, they're half bent over it - _maybe_ kneeling on the floor, but it's not quite clear. There are no chairs where they are. They definitely haven't been sitting. This could be read in one of two ways: You could say that it's evidence for your theory, because it pretty much proves that they were caught completely off-guard by the fountain opening. Or you can read it as evidence that the open books are just an oversight, because them standing around instead of sitting, but with their books open, is at least a little bit odd.
@@tarvoc746 I think it's because of the OSU community, where they typically say "wysi" whenever they see the number 727 as a meme. You pointed out the timestamp 7:27.
The problem I have with the timeline is that it only works if the fountain was somehow created in the same place and time as Noelle and Berdly, but without either of them noticing what was happening. The only believable way I could see this happening is if the fountain was opened within the closet, and when the closet door opened the darkness covered the rest of the room with Noelle and berdley inside. As for why the darkness can spread here but not it the school? The school has windows in the hallway, so it can't covered the same way a single room can. The knight could have just created the fountain, and just left the closet and closed the door. I think this explanation works, and it removes the need for the knight to create the fountain at that time. As for why the closet door opened? IDK, perhaps they needed a textbook and the library had it in storage. It's a bit contrived, but the less so than any other option I've seen. This works no matter who the knight is, I just don't think the fountain could have been created the way the timeline describes. The location of Noelle and berdly once the fountain is sealed is a problem, but Kris and Susie also moved locations in chapter 1. Side note:I also just assumed Kris could run there if he needed to, but his movements are stiff and segmented because he's in pain. Although, the idea of Kris slowly waddling across town is pretty funny. But the difficulty of getting over there is definitely still good evidence against the Kris Knight theory.
On the topic of whether Noelle & Berdley would walk into the Lab while the Fountain is active, I don't think it's that difficult to imagine happening. At first it would simply look like a dark room, and I can see Berdley going in to search for a lightswitch. Noelle is a coward, yes, but she's also a total doormat (to the point where you can bully her into committing murder in the Weird Route), so I can see her following Berdley inside if he just showed a little bravado (something that's well within his character). Either way, it seems a bit more logical than assuming that they went in and then just decided to fall asleep instead of actually studying like they were supposed to, especially since there aren't actually any chairs on that side of the table (they're slumped over standing up). If they didn't fall asleep, then they'd presumably notice the Fountain being opened (it's far from a subtle process, plus they'd probably see the Knight holding a knife or blade of some kind, which would probably freak them out). Besides, by that day the traffic jam had already started, so there's no way the Knight could have escaped from the Library without being caught by Undyne.
So let me get this straight the knight walks into the library and decides to walk into the room and hide in the closet and then when he sees Noelle and Berdly walk into the room he waits for them to sit down and then only then he decides to create a dark fountain and sprint out of the room as fast as possible and some how Noelle and Berdly don't see this man bust out of the closet and sprint out the room, and your calling the idea that Kris uses armor and swords and shields all things commonly used by knights goofy, yes because using imagery to hint to character motivations and plot twists is an entirely ridiculous thing that has only been done in most great works of fiction god forbid we use imagery and artistic choices to make our theories instead relying on plot holes that the author didn't even which by the way aren't even plot holes 1 - Look I know Noelle is a timid but, being to afraid to walk into a dark room what do you thinks gonna happen if she see her shadow. Look I know Kris and Susie were somewhat afraid to walk into the room originally but that still doesn't make it an impossibility that Noelle could have walked into the room. Also, all of this ignoring Berdly who I know doesn't exactly seem the most brave but, his presents their does put social pressure onto Noelle who probably wouldn't want to look like a 5 year old who couldn't walk into a room because it was to dark. Also, all of this is ignoring the fact that Noelle likes to explore things that scare her, you that key aspect of her personality which only helps her to tie into the greater theme of escapism that the grand narrative is clearly trying to use 2 - Is it really that big of a deal that Noelle and Berdly woke up on the desk because it's not like the only other time we've seen someone come out of dark world they ended up in a whole other fucking room but, there must be some significance to these character waking up on the desk. It's not like them beginning there helps them to actively helps to make them think that they just woke up from a dream. No its not like if they woke on the floor they'd be somewhat confused to how they all passed out on they floor like somebody chloroformed them and it would turn into that one scene from Community 3 - Does nobody remember what the man in the closet quote was referring to because what it was referencing was not that a man waited in the closet for two kids to walk into a library only so he could sprint out, it was referencing to the fact that you could hide Berdly's dead body in the closet. Now I might be mistaken but, I'm pretty sure that quote is only seen in the weird route. You the route where Berdly is dead and order to allude to that death and show that he's not just sleeping a bunch of dialog was changed I'll give you some evidence like the fact that Kris walks slow but, everything else is just pure nonsense if you know what your talking about. There is some questions brought up by your theory that I find quite interesting, why was no one else in the library or if some one was in the closet why did they wait for Noelle and Berdy to show up and did they know they were coming. I mean you can't make fun of the sans is ness theory when your theory just has twice as many holes as that theory. I mean Jesus Christ! Now for be it from me to speak for Toby Fox or know what's going on in his head but as a writer and someone who has made stories with twist like this a kind video like this would make me go ape shit. It creates plot holes from nothing and it kind of refuses to go along with the storytelling in favor of your own view on things and in way that feels kind of insulting like your refusing to focus what your being told because it isn't interesting or clever enough to captive and are instead ripping it down by using these made up plot holes. Engaging with media like this just feels stupid, wouldn't be better to analyze the story and the themes contained within. Like how if Kris is the knight how much sense that would make and would it would say for his character and story going forward. Look don't let me tell you to engage with media but, I think if don't look into the greater stories or lessons behind many of the thing we all consume you'll miss out on some truly interesting and life changing lesson from all kinds people and I personally wouldn't recommend that
regarding your first paragraph, no, she says that the knight snuck into the dark world with them unnoticed, which has the potential of happening. 3. That's a fan theory and has no proof.
You didn't get it straight, she literally explained it in the video. The Knight enters the Computer Lab to open a Dark Fountain, but Noelle and Berdly walk in and that makes the Knight hide in the closet, Noelle and Berdly then fall asleep, the Knight leaves the closet, opens the Dark Fountain and leaves the library. 1. Noelle isn't just timid she's specifically a scaredy cat, a people-pleaser and a coward, she's interested in scary things but only from afar, that's why it took her so long to befriend Susie. It's also stupid that both Noelle and Berdly would willingly walk into a scary and dark room but still believe it was all a dream. 2. It is a big deal and this is the first time we've seen someone come out of a dark world on a whole other side of the room. Them waking up there literally helps them believe it was all a dream, that's the point. 3. No man is mentioned, the dialogue says "A large person could easily fit inside" and Berdly is visibly not a large person, there'd be no point in hiding Berdly's body anyway since Kris robs everything else in that room and it's not like a closet is a good place to hide a body. Sans is Ness definitely does not have as many holes as this theory, that's a disingenuous comparison. Creating plot holes out of nothing and refusing to go along with the storytelling in favor of your own view is exactly what you're doing, what you're saying and your tone are way more insulting than a video that literally just says "I disagree with this theory about the story of a video game".
Are you really gonna argue that Noelle came to ask Susie to come study, walked to the library, and within minutes of starting goes to sleep together with Berdly? Like man, this was not hours upon hours of time that they were there before we got there. Its an extreme stretch to try and tell me that they went to do a thing and just decided to sleep instead. 1. Computer room has no windows, it being dark can and more than likely would be easily explained by Berdly or both that the lights are off. As we saw in chapter 1, you don't necessarily fall immediately upon walking into a dark world room as both Kris and Susie walk far into the closet before anything happens. Would it be weird for the room to be so dark? Yes. Would it stop them from walking inside if like out first main character they assume its just the light being off? No. 2. Not the first time, chapter 1 enter the closet. Come out right in the middle of the empty classroom, including Susie specifically asking Kris if what happened was real. Its clear that exiting a dark world at least for the first time is not as clear as just "Wow that was amazing" seeing how it was even a question at the end of chapter 1's world where we know Susie was not sleeping. 3. The line "A large person could easily fit inside" really only tells us one thing for sure. That the closet is big enough to fit a a large person easily. Berdly is not a large person, therefor they can also fit inside of there. While I do not agree with the idea that its just a quote for hiding Berdly, it is infinitely better to place him into the closet after the weird route than to leave him slumped over the desk assuming Kris even cares about that. The hops that one needs to jump through to "Debunk" that Kris could have opened the library portal is honestly way more of a stretch than just assuming for now that he did. In the end we will see what happens, and what the story does tell. Its entirely likely that Toby did not want the "Who is the knight" thing to be the main mystery so just got it out of the way early so he can set up something way more interesting.
Counterarguments from the prosecutor: Even though you did mention the narration text when interacting with the TV, you didn't mention how a lot of people (including myself) use it as evidence for Knight Kris. Chapter 1 - "It's the TV. Doesn't even seem to be plugged in anymore." Chapter 2 - "It's the TV. Seems to be plugged in, but it's dusty." The only person who could've reasonably been the one to plug in the TV is Kris. And since they turn it on right before making the fountain, this suggests they knew how to make fountains PRIOR to Queen's explanation. And to address your claim that Kris plugged in the TV to watch it while eating the pie, I'd like to emphasize the fact that the lines say the TV is dusty, and that it "doesn't seem to be plugged in *anymore,"* hinting that it hasn't been used in a while. The fact that Kris plugged in the TV for the first time in AGES clearly means something deeper. There's also the noteworthy sink dialogue: "It is not yet time to wash your hands." "This is the kitchen sink. You could wash your hands here. But, isn't the sink in the bathroom better?" If these lines were simply meant to be foreshadowing, why word them so suspiciously? Also, if Kris was just innocently going to eat the pie & watch TV, why depict them as so malicious? Them pulling out a knife while maniacally smiling at the camera doesn't exactly scream "poor innocent kid" to me. Not to mention how literally *no one other than Kris* has legitimate in-game evidence supporting them being the Knight. Except maybe Alvin, but that's debatable. While your argument about the fact that Kris making a fountain doesn't prove their guilt makes sense in the *real world,* you have to remember that this is a *story.* You must look at this from a writing perspective. The player literally just learned how the Knight makes dark fountains, only to show Kris doing the exact thing described soon after. No one, other than theorists, would have any reason to believe the Knight is anyone but Kris after this setup & payoff. Again, in the real world, you're absolutely right. But purely from the perspective of this being a story being told with intent, there's a clear message being sent here. Queen's statement that any lightner could create a fountain is doubtful, considering she says that she was just making assumptions based on the Knight's actions. Berdly may have been unsuccessful in creating his fountain, and Ralsei stopped him because, even though he knew monsters can't make fountains, he didn't want to take the risk of letting Berdly do it anyway given what's at stake. We don't really know how mobile Kris is without the soul. Sure, they're shown to struggle, but the times we actually get to see them without their soul, ESPECIALLY at the end of Chapter 1, are very short. This argument is based entirely on the assumption that Kris cannot survive without the soul for as long as it takes to open the Cyber World fountain, which we can't know for a fact. Pretty much the only thing supporting the "Knight made the fountain while Noelle & Berdly were inside" argument is their position when the fountain is sealed. However, consider Kris & Susie's positions. Despite entering the dark world through the entrance to the lab, after the fountain is sealed, they're shown at the opposite end of the table. A good few feet away from where they entered the room. And no, the jump doesn't count, since if it did, they would also be facing the entrance to the room, as they were shown to rotate 180 degrees. This disproves the assumption that lightners wake up in the same place they entered the room after the fountain is sealed. Also, for Noelle not being willing to enter a dark room... consider Berdly. He could've convinced Noelle to come in at the same time with him similar to what Susie did. I'd also like to mention how it's very strange to claim that Noelle & Berdly fell asleep while studying. If Noelle truly was tired enough to fall asleep within the literal couple of minutes between her interaction with Susie & us finding the computer lab fountain, she would not have acted as energetic as she did when she was talking with Susie. Not to mention how out-of-character it would be for nerds like Noelle & Berdly to suddenly fall asleep while studying. As for the closet, there are alternate explanations to this. It could be a gag in reference to Giga Queen. It could also be a hint that Kris hides Berdly's body in the closet post-Snowgrave, which is what I personally believe. And before anyone says anything, I'll address them: *"It specifies a large person, and Berdly isn't large at all!"* The fact that it specifies a large person has less to do with hinting that a large person has been in there, but more a statement of convenience. Like, "Oh, how convenient that a large person could easily fit in here, and thus very easy to stuff Berdly in here." *"Why would this line appear in the normal route, then?"* The normal route shouldn't totally be banned from including foreshadowing to the weird route. Take a look at Lancer's line when Noelle joins your party. He says "Can we make them a bad guy?" when talking about Noelle. This is simultaneously a reference to Lancer's obsession with being & making people bad guys, while also subtle foreshadowing to Snowgrave. While that is a bit debatable, my point still stands that weird route foreshadowing shouldn't totally be disregarded as a possibility. The closet line is a one-off, seemingly meaningless line that suddenly gets re-contextualized in the weird route. I think it's entirely possible that Ralsei just failed to sense the fountain until he joined us in the Cyber World. I mean, think about what Ralsei was doing all this time. He was busy setting up rooms for Kris, Susie, and Lancer. And just recently, new faces showed up in town. It's very reasonable to assume that Ralsei was too preoccupied to sense the Cyber World fountain. It's also possible he didn't sense the fountain at all, but rather some vague feeling. You admit yourself that it's possible for the fountain not to have been what he sensed. Queen saying that the Knight created this fountain "Today" makes sense as an argument from a human perspective, since we consider hours like 3 AM "last night." But here's the thing: Queen is a computer. Computers start days at 12 AM. Meaning it's entirely possible that Kris opened the fountain AFTER midnight, but BEFORE dawn. I also feel you're emphasizing SpookyDood's "let alone a week" line far too much. That's not his point. What he's trying to say is that it'd take more than a measly few minutes for the Sweet Cap'n Cakes to notice Queen's behavior. I personally feel a single night would be more than enough for them to notice Queen's change in behavior, especially when considering the other alternative. To support this, I'd like to mention that in the Undertale 6th Anniversary livestream, Toby Fox himself confirmed that it was the fountain that corrupted King & changed his behavior, not the Knight. Meaning it's entirely possible that the same thing happened to Queen (especially since she confirmed she was guessing based off the Knight's actions), and thus the Knight did NOT need to enter the dark worlds.
On your first paragraph regarding the framing of Kris in chapter 1: Toby Fox said himself that he wanted Chapter 1 to be an inversion of expectations, he wanted it to feel like Undertale but have your expectations be subverted as the story goes on. Obviously, the ending stinger to chapter 1 with Kris smiling "maliciously" is a red herring that Toby delivers on at the beginning of Chapter 2. It was another subversion of our expectations going into the game proper. Also, what is your "legitimate in-game evidence" that Kris is the knight, because I find that highly objectionable. Even if it were true, don't you think it'd be silly for Toby to show his hand so soon, especially with such large lengths of time between chapters? The player just learned how to make Dark Fountains but do you know who else just barely did too? KRIS. What evidence do you have that monsters can't make fountains? i don't believe there is any difference between humans and monsters other than humans being, well, human. Don't bring your Undertale assumptions into this game. Okay now you're just assuming Kris without the soul is an olympic runner when LEGITIMATE IN-GAME EVIDENCE shows that they can't move easily at all. You're starting with the conclusion that Kris is the knight and then scrounging up evidence to support your claim, that is the opposite of how you should approach theories. YOu should always try to tear your own theories down, and only believe them when they stand up to the highest scrutiny. Regarding their positions upon waking up in the Dark World I actually agree with you. There's an obvious spacial disconnect between the dark world and the light world, not just tied to position but also to state-of-being. While Kris and the gang were in the dark world, I think they were probably asleep in the physical world. No, you're wrong. It says a a large person can fit inside on both routes, not just Snowgrave. Why would it say that on a route where Berdly isn't even in the room anymore? Lancer's line in the normal route happens before the weird route has started, giving you a chance to find it yourself. What good is foreshadowing a part that you can't even take part in? Ralsei is a ball of mystery but I'm sus of him. Okay getting into how queen is a computer and Kris still could've made the fountain blah blah blah this reads like cope. Look into Last Thursday-ism, that'll explain how Sweet and Queen can have a relationship that lasts long enough for him to notice her behavior "changing" when their world is created on the same day.
@@souplife1 The thing is, the strange behavior from Kris happens again at the end of Chapter 2. There's a clear pattern being set up here. It shouldn't all be brushed off as a red herring. What I meant by Kris being the only one who has legitimate evidence for them being the Knight is that every other character people make Knight theories about is based entirely on circumstantial evidence, coincidences/over-analyzation, and/or just pointing out suspicions about them. Kris, being the only one who makes a fountain on screen, as well as the TV narration suggesting they knew how to do so prior to Queen's explanation, is the only character the game is actively associating with the Knight. And no, I don't think it'd be silly for Toby to reveal the Knight this early. Twists don't have to be revealed towards the end. If it's beneficial to the story, they can be revealed near the beginning. The only reason we have such large lengths of time between chapters is because the game isn't finished yet. There's no reason to assume that Deltarune is meant to be experienced differently from any other game: played all at once. Someone playing the full game wouldn't have time to debate things like we're debating now. The only reason people are doubting Knight Kris is BECAUSE of these long gaps between chapters, which only exist due to the game being unfinished. If Kris really isn't the Knight, that will be confirmed in the future, given how obvious the reveal was at the end of Chapter 2. Again, I provided my reasons as to why I believe Kris knew how to make fountains prior to Queen's explanation in the original comment, so I'm not gonna repeat myself. Even if I'm wrong in saying monsters can't make fountains, my point still stands about the setup & payoff of the Knight Kris reveal, especially since, like I said, it happens right after the player learns how the Knight makes fountains. Kris making a fountain on screen right after a bunch of Knight exposition should absolutely be taken as hard evidence for them being the Knight, despite many people refusing to do so. People take Queen saying that any lightner can create a fountain the wrong way. That line isn't there to tell the player that the Knight could be anyone, it's to further explain why she's so bent on forcing Noelle to create a fountain. I only argued that Kris could be mobile *enough* to open the Cyber World fountain. Where did you get the idea that I suggested they could be as mobile as an olympic runner? My point is that there's no way to know HOW long they can survive without their soul, so this can't be used as definitive counterevidence. Yeah, I acknowledged that it appears on both routes. I even gave it an explanation: it's a seemingly meaningless line in the normal route that suddenly gets re-contextualized in the weird route. Like, "Oh, I know what this means now." Like I already said, references to the weird route shouldn't be assumed to be completely banned from appearing in the normal route. The fact that it appears in the normal route could be explained by it foreshadowing a future event ("future" as in when the player is done with the normal route, and goes to play the weird route). Last Thursday-ism is a good point, but I don't see how pointing out how Queen is a computer & how Kris still could've made the fountain reads like "cope," because those are both true. Queen saying "Today" is another reference to her computer-ness. There are many instances where the game reminds you that Queen is a computer with her references to computer-based things, so it's likely that this is another one of those instances.
I would also like to point out that Kris looks at the Camera when they pull the soul (Us) out in Ep. 1, Which mean they know We play them during the day. Which means Kris has to find ways to make what they do look like "Red Herrings" so you will continue to play them. They need the Power to save and reload to gain the recruits/or power your Soul gives when you seal the fountains they create. If you stop playing because you know how they are manipulating you, it is over.
I would like to present Queen's video of the Dark Fountain being made. Noelle and Berdly aren't in it even though the computer that is Queen was sitting right in front of them. And we see in the chapter 2 ending, the Dark smoke shoots straight up, and it takes a few minutes for the Smoke to fill the room. Which means Noelle and Berdly should be in the video. Unless.... Noelle and Berdly weren't there when it happened. Queen wasn't in front of them because they weren't there yet. Which means it must have happened the Night before. (The reason this is case is because the Annoying Dog who causes the traffic jam rides into the Dark Fountain, which means it was created before the jam). The Knight opened the laptop, turned it on so Queen would be created, and then created the fountain, similar to the Knight plugging in the TV. Kris is premediating the setup for the fountains. This would insure nobody could walk in on them , and would insure they could leave the room before the dark fountain areas get engulfed. This also means is very likely the Knight was in the computer lab itself , not the closet. This is premeditated. No need to hide. After all, Noelle and Berdly aren't there.
Stories are by their nature, abstractions of reality but I think you're removing some important context here. The reason Queen was talking about the knight was because she wanted to create a new dark fountain. The Fun Gang defeat Queen but Noelle, Berdley and especially Susie reflect in earshot of Kris on how good things have come from the creation of the fountains. Ralsei stops them because he thinks it would bring the Roaring. So why can't people assume Kris could have created the chapter 3 fountain because of their experiences in Chapter 1 (Remember Susie only became Kris' friend after Chapter 1's events). We don't assume Berdley is the knight because he tried to create a dark fountain so why should we assume Kris is? And well, unless Kris can predict the future, this possible motivation can't work with Kris being the knight as they would have no way of knowing how Susie, Noelle or Berdley would react to (or in chapter 2's case if they even knew who would end up inside) the fountain. Also a more minor thing but a large person ≠ person . Unless Toby was implying Berdley is fat, there's no reason to word it this way if it's meant to imply Berdley being stuffed inside it. For instance Toby Fox could have worded it like this: "It's so big you feel you could close the door shut behind you and no one would know you were inside." Not to mention that doesn't explain why it's big in the first place from a storytelling standpoint as Toby could have made the closet as big or as small as he liked. Giga Queen is a better explanation but raises a rather different question: If it was in the closet, where is it now? Other than that though, you make some good points here. I had no idea that the fountain was corrupting the King and not the knight.
Great video and points! Just wanted to add that being asleep is probably a side effect of leaving a dark world because it closed and not a cause of noelle and birdly's study being boring. This is probably the case because it seems neither of them were asleep when they came into the dark world, and neither were asleep when the fountain was closing.
Well in chapter one kris and suzy are fully awake when the fountain closes, and suzy is awake under the weird route in chapter, so it’s not a proximity thing allowing them to stay awake the first time. So I think it’s more likely they were asleep, mostly on the basis of there being no reason for them to be where they are.
Another possibility - Ralsei put them to sleep with his magic before the Dark World finished closing. We already know that he has the power to do that, and to be honest, him doing that to cover up the whole incident is the best explanation we currently have. Every other explanation involves either assuming that Dark Worlds forming puts you to sleep (which is completely unsupported speculation) or else the bizarre idea that Noelle and Berdley decided to take a nap instead of studying like they were supposed to, which seems pretty out of character for both of them (especially since there aren't even any chairs on that side of the table, so they'd have to have decided to sleep standing up or slouching over for some reason).
24:50 love ur video, but this is kind of a dumb point. Queen could easily just assume from Kris's actions, and they don't HAVE to interact with her. she actually seems to be pretty confused on who the knight even is or what the knights motives themself is
@12:05-. The thing is, this is only a plot hole if you assume that the way lightener placements in space when a dark world dissipates works in one specific way (in this case, presumably it being point of entry based), but I don't really see any reason why it needs to work like this at all. I actually looked up a long play of chapter 1 just to see what the scene after Kris and Susie sealing up the dark fountain was like again (because it's our only other reference point for how special precisioning after the erasure of a dark world works), it starts out in pitch black, and then after some funny noises and Susie telling Kris to knock it off, and then both characters are standing next to the light switch. It's possible that they started at the door to the closet (presumably the light world version of the great door, and that's their entry point), or the cabinet (presumably the object turned into dark castle) and then hugged the wall till they reached the light switch, but the funny noises and the dialogue seem to imply that Kris and Susie started at the center of the room, and then fumbled their way to whatever wall they could find, which just so happened to be the light switch wall. Point being, we don't know where the frick they were when the dark fountain was sealed. So far, for as far as I can tell, the only evidence that the dark worlds work in a way that would make it impossible for Kris to be the Knight is the fact that Kris and Susie happened to be standing at the door to the computer room after sealing the dark fountain. The question is it "why are Noelle and Birdly sleeping at the desk when the dark world disappeared?", but "why we would expect anything else?". This is why, even when watching videos that fully convinced me Kris wasn't the night, I always felt like this was a weak piece of evidence, I just never got the impression that the disappearance of a dark world worked in a particular way, much less the specific way it would have to work to rule out the fountain being made at night. I personally doubt we're going to get a consistent pattern as to where lighteners are put after the disappearance of a dark world, and if we do, it will be unintentional. Toby is not a big lore-lore guy (as evidenced by the unanswerable question that is Chara, and the existence of essence that is only there to explain Flawy), his expertise and interests are more in character writing and theme mastery.
The only answer i have right now as to "why Berdly and Noelle are "sleeping" while Kris and Susie are standing up in front of the door, is because K&S are fully aware of what the Dark Worlds are, while B&N think it's just a dream. Therefore, if we go by the logic of the Dark Worlds reflecting the will/desires/thoughts ecc of the Lightners, since B&N believed to be asleep, when the Fountain was sealed they're bodies were put in that position, while K&S don't need any "adjustment" because they know the truth of the "adventure" they went through... Perhaps my point is a bit confused but, essentially, Berdly and Noelle believed to be sleeping so that's how they found themselves once the Fountain was sealed. We still have no idea what exactly happens to the physical body of a Lightner when they enter a Dark World but it's clear that there is a clear separation between them (Susie eats constantly but is still hungry, the only kind of damage that afflicts them is "mental" since Berly can lose an arm with an explosion but in the real world it just gets stiff and paralized...) so, with that, we can deduce that whatever happens when the room is filled with darkness does not affect the real bodyes of those who enter it, but that darkness can move them howerer and wherever it needs to (see chapter one for example, from the closet to the unused class)
I always wonder why so many people try so hard to disprove it. Not like say that it's highly unlikely to happen but just IMPOSSIBLE. Okay, tbh this video is nothing new. Once again it mainly consists of reminding the most popluar interpretation of events so far and explaining why it does not fit "Kris is the Knight" theory. That's not how disproving the theories works. You can't use YOUR interpretation of events to say other theory sucks because it doesn't fit its timeline. Similarly I can't use "Kris is the Knight" theory timeline to disprove anyone's theory. To decide if some theory makes more sense than another you have to analyze it individually. I must admit that you indeed tried to do it but instead of presenting both arguments and contradictions concerning both theories you gave your theory only arguments and "Kris Knight" theory only contradictions. But okay let's talk about these arguments. I would like to mention that "Noelle and Berdly sleeping" is so outdated argument it's so interesting to see people use it in 2023. Can you explain why you make this "weird rule" that while leaving the dark world, certain person must go back to exact same position that they were in while entering it? There is nothing in the game proving it so far. Actually Kris and Susie stading at the desk after sealing the Dark Fountain is an argument disproving it (they should be right at the entrance to the computer lab). But okay let's follow your way of thinking. If this "rule" was true why didn't Noelle and Berdly even start studying? Look at their books, they are closed and stacked on each other which means: 1) They entered the lab 2) They sat down 3) They decided to go sleep together in a public place in the middle of the day cuz why not. I really expect you to give any making sense explanation to that. Okay, next point. I like how you say "Noelle would never go into a dark room, even Susie and Kris are scared to enter one". Oh yeah, and what can we see later in the game? Noelle walking alone through the dark alleys of the cyber city xD. Come on Let's go further. Now this explanation with Knight escaping after we entered the Dark World. How did you come up with it? Did you even read Queen dialogues? She directly says "I was just guessing based on Knight's actions". Game literally tells you there wasn't any interaction between Queen and The Knight. And yet you just calmly explain that the Knight told her what to do and escaped using some unknow method without closing the fountain. It's so great you gave that biggest contradition to "your timeline" less than 30 seconds of screentime. Hmmm, what else.... Oh, the "Kris was watching TV and ate the pie" explanation is also great. I thought that the line saying "the TV doesn't seem to be plugged in anymore and it's dusty" clearly suggests that nobody has been using it for a long time. And yet after watching this video it turns out that for some reason after some unknown time Kris just decided to watch some TV in the night. It just sounds like a poor excuse for why they are so tired in the morning the next day. In my opinion this explanation makes as much sense as Kris going through the town to the Library and making there a fountain. Summarizing it feels like you just increase the importance of your arguments and lower the importance of "Kris is Knight" theory arguments. Not to mention using interpretation of events to disprove another interpretation.
The pieces of evidence that I find most compelling for Kris being the knight are: -Ralsei's existence. Although not confirmed by any means, Kris is the most likely person to have created Ralsei. If true, then Kris is responsible for at least 2 of the (known) dark fountains in the story. -The TV and Pie. In between chapter 1 & 2, Kris plugged in the TV in the middle of the knight (lol), presumably just after removing the soul. He also ate toriel's pie. Both of these made creating the Dark fountain in chapter 2 easier. Because of this, the dark fountain at the house was probably planned out since at least the end of chapter one. Kris shouldn't have known how to create dark fountains until chapter 2 though. It is technically possible he planned it anyway and just got lucky, but that seems unlikely. -The wording about the knight. No one has ever been explicitly confirmed to have seen the knight. King might have, but he only said the knight created the fountain and the kings were imprisoned. You don't need to enter a fountain to create one, and the Kings weren't confirmed to have been imprisoned by the knight specifically. This means that no one recognizing Kris isn't an issue, because they haven't ever seen the knight in person. (Exept Queen, who only saw a hand and a knife.) Granted, there are still problems with Kris being the knight, but not enough to rule him out IMO.
Your evidence is sound, except for one thing. Kris is really adverse to Ralsei. They dislike him heavily based on the tea. And also, considering that Ralsei is intentionally trying to get Kris to not worry about the nature of puppets, and the implications of what happens if their own strings break, I think Ralsei, while being made of the horns, only looks like Kris’s brother Asriel as some sort of guise, something to lure them into trusting him.
Kris is adverse to Ralsei , if They are the Knight, because Ralsei is a tool, literally. And Even though Ralsei is trying to please and comfort Kris , he isn't "real" and not Asriel, the person Kris actually wants to idolize them. Ralsei , to Kris, is a second rate clone, a mental imaginary friend, a sycophant doll, I theorize. It is basically Kris talking to themself with the face of Asriel, and that could be percieved as pathetic. And therefore, to Kris, Ralsei liking him is shameful, I think, because Kris is putting words in his mouth. A puppet comforting another puppet. Ralsei is Kris's walking, talking shame. Their brother, subservient. but also a version of themself. A version of Asriel projected that is submissive to Kris's whims.... will literally let Kris stand on him/them. oof.
I don't think Berdly and Noelle sitting down with their books far from the door necessarily proves that the Dark Fountain was made with them inside. After all, Kris and Susie manages to change rooms while in a Dark World in Chapter 1. Plus Noelle was at the beginning of Cyber World, which could mean she was near the door at the time. Also, Noelle and Berdly clearly haven't started studying yet : When the Dark Fountain is closed, their books are closed.
They changed rooms because they changed dark rooms and so were launched in like how they run into the chapter 2 one so they are collapsed a couple of feet inside. Are you telling me the dark fountain decided to plop them into their seats with their books nicely in a pile?
@@redbush5483 In my opinion, no. They did it themselves, like what happened in Chapter 1 with Kris and Susie. At the very least, Susie didn't know that there was a Dark World in the closet, her first instinct was assuming that the light was off. We were able to walk quite a lot inside the closet, before falling into the Dark World. My idea is : As long as the first one into a room with a Dark World doesn't know that there is a Dark World in there, it won't throw them directly into the Dark World. Susie was first in the closet, as she is in front of us when Kris enters the closet. And so, Kris and Susie had to "wait" until Susie realizes that something is wrong. Same goes with Noelle and Berdly. As they are the smartest in their class, they probably spend a lot of time in the computer lab studying and researching for their project. They just saw a dark room where the computer lab is, and they just followed their habits, and went to their usual spots and put down their books. Noelle then decided that turning the lights on could be useful, walked to where the light switch should be, and that's when they realised something is wrong, starting the process of entering the Dark World.
9:56 queen says she was jsut assuming based on the knight's actions, the only interaction the cyber world has with the knight is the video that queen took
ralsei is most likely meant to be the red horns, and every chapter he talks privately with that most likely means kris created ralsei, and that should mean that he created the dark fountain to give a place for ralsei to be and for other darkeners. they have a motivation to open a dark fountain, for now we know that the soul is the thing that could seal the dark fountain, and kris has it, that could mean that kris wants to open the fountains to eventually seal them. why would he do that? because the party levels up each time the fountain is sealed and he can recruit more darkeners. why does he need that? no one knows its to early to tell. also, if every lightener can potentially create a dark fountain, why wont there be more that 1 knight? kris was super tired in chapter 2 we know they slept all the school day. yeah they walk slowly without the soul but why would it make them unable to make the dark fountain? it actually makes more sense because of them spending the whole night walking to the library, opening the dark fountain and then returning home.
On an almost entirely unrelated note, I just had a thought about the computer lab closet. What if that's how Ralsei got to us in ch2? What if closets have special properties? This is probably nothing, but it's interesting to ponder.
I would like to present Queen's video of the Dark Fountain being made. Noelle and Berdly aren't in it even though the computer that is Queen was sitting right in front of them. And we see in the chapter 2 ending, the Dark smoke shoots straight up, and it takes a few minutes for the Smoke to fill the room. Which means Noelle and Berdly should be in the video. Unless.... Noelle and Berdly weren't there when it happened. Queen wasn't in front of them because they weren't there yet. Which means it must have happened the Night before. (The reason this is case is because the Annoying Dog who causes the traffic jam rides into the Dark Fountain, which means it was created before the jam). The Knight opened the laptop, turned it on so Queen would be created, and then created the fountain, similar to the Knight plugging in the TV. Kris is premediating the setup for the fountains. This would insure nobody could walk in on them , and would insure they could leave the room before the dark fountain areas get engulfed. This also means is very likely the Knight was in the computer lab itself , not the closet. This is premeditated. No need to hide. After all, Noelle and Berdly aren't there. But I think the closet space in the general route references the Queen's basement and Spamton NEO suit in the Darkness, as well as the roller coaster.
Toby once said that Chapter 3 is going to be different from the usual chapter formula, and my guess for that is because a different person created the fountain a.k.a Kris
Chairiel is the knight. Chairiel is the only one called it alongside the knight (pretend vessel don’t exist) It all makes sense now Chairiel is the knight
To the question of "why Berdly and Noelle are "sleeping" while Kris and Susie are standing up in front of the door, i think the most simple answer is because K&S are fully aware of what the Dark Worlds are, while B&N think it's just a dream. Therefore, if we go by the logic of the Dark Worlds reflecting the will/desires/thoughts ecc of the Lightners, since B&N believed to be asleep, when the Fountain was sealed they're bodies were put in that position, while K&S don't need any "adjustment" because they know the truth of the "adventure" they went through... Perhaps my point is a bit confused but, essentially, Berdly and Noelle believed to be sleeping so that's how they found themselves once the Fountain was sealed. We still have no idea what exactly happens to the physical body of a Lightner when they enter a Dark World but it's clear that there is a clear separation between them (Susie eats constantly but is still hungry, the only kind of damage that afflicts them is "mental" since Berly can lose an arm with an explosion but in the real world it just gets stiff and paralized...) so, with that, we can deduce that whatever happens when the room is filled with darkness does not affect the real bodyes of those who enter it, but that darkness can move them howerer and wherever it needs to (see chapter one for example, from the closet to the unused class)
okay i have no idea how NOBODY understands this the closet in the computer lab is referencing Queen’s Mansion, a “large person” referenced being the Giga Queen statue i don’t get how this is so obvious to me yet the instant assumption is “the knight was in there” i mean sure, they COULD have been but clearly with that dialogue, it’s the same situation as the drawer in the unused classroom having cards spilling out, since that’s representative of all the people in the King’s Castle
the closet is most likely the cyber city where the huge queen robot and your huge robot have fought each other. and when i first saw it i fought the line was referring to hiding berdly's body .
literally anyone could be the knight ever since chapter 2 its revealed to us and the crew any lightner could bring their own foutain into fruition, and kris literally takes that idea and starts chapter 3 because they want to spend more time in the dark world with susie well- i think thats how its interpreted anyway
I feel like the whole situation with Kris is much simpler than it is made out to be. Ultimately there are two possibilities that make the most sense to me, and they are as follows: One - Kris is literally just a lonely kid that found out there is a magical realm that, as far as they know, only themselves and a few other select people seem to know about. In said realm they can go on adventures with their friends and other fun things, even though it is rather dangerous. Its a secret and special place just for them and their friends. Before the second Dark Fountain it was anyone's guess if what they and Susie went through was even real, but now Kris has learned something very important: You can just straight up make these things. Think about the possibilities if you were in their shoes. Unlimited adventures and fun as long as you just shut the Fountain when you are ready to wrap up so that way you don't trigger the Roaring. Kris in this scenario is just a lonely kid that now stumbled upon the ultimate toy and this also ties in nicely with the theme of escapism that has been simmering in the background with DR for a bit now. Kris can use the Dark World to effectively never have to deal with reality again, in a very grim sense. And then the Second option, although part of this can also tie in with the first: Kris learned from Spamton there just might be a way in the Dark Worlds to rid themselves of their own "strings" holding them back. Spamton may have failed, but there is a slim chance that Kris can regain control away from us/the soul potentially, and the key to it may involve something in the Dark Worlds. This ultimately assumes Kris does not like the soul/us, which based on how they seem to act when they want us out for a bit may be the case, but either way the possibility remains. There are all sorts of strange beings, powers, and objects in Dark Worlds, and who knows what could be done with them. For Kris, the possibilities are now theoretically endless, all they need to do is play their metaphorical cards right and explore the mysteries of the Dark Worlds as long as they can and eventually they might find a way to cut their strings, but this time without the catastrophic consequences Spamton faced. Anyway, thats my thoughts on the matter. Neither idea are entirely mutually exclusive however as Kris could theoretically desire both of these things, but I feel these make more sense than Kris being the Knight.
god, after a long fuckin day a TheSoph video is just what I need. I typically don't watch random youtubers I find, especially if they have one good video and not much else, but I have faith in you. Good content with solid editing, what more is there to ask? Long in the short of it, this is what I needed, thanks.
One of the biggest things in my opinion, is that Ralsei didn’t detect the new dark fountain until Kris and Susie were already there. It is plausible to believe that Ralsei can detect new fountains, and he probably would warn the rest of the gang as soon as he detects one. If Kris somehow had created the fountain last night, Ralsei would warn the gang first thing after class
Remember Ralsei talks to Kris when we aren't watching with his "So that why" speeches that he specifically directs our attention away from.@@TheSoulCalledZuzia
Also, Remember in the Snowgrave route Ralsei's "But wait... We were supposed to-!!!!". We, the Player, don't engage with the party enough to draw our attention from Kris outside Noelle room, and it is implied Ralsei "was supposed to-" do this. But Susie moves through her stuff too fast too. So, Ralsei cannot go "think about Susie" to move the Scene and Our perspective like he was apparently supposed to. Because Susie is already right next Kris. And If Kris created Ralsei and he is in on the plan, Ralsei would be talking to Kris to confirm parts of the Plan, but We, using Kris as Vessel, deflect their script.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 There are two problems with those two arguments: 1. The "so that's why" part. This theory bases on the assumption that Kris created Ralsei. So that would make Kris the mastermind and the one who knows the entire plan. So shouldn't Kris be the one who explains the plan, instead of Ralsei? 2. Actually, you can skip the entire "thinking about what Susie is doing" part in the normal route as well. You just need to choose the option that you don't care and then second one that says that you really don't care or something like this and that will skip the entire scene. If Kris and Ralsei were supposed to do something in that scene, shouldn't Ralsei react the same way in that scene, too? But instead, he brushes it off. I agree, he really wanted the player to go away in that moment, but still - if anyone's a mastermind here it's not Kris, but Ralsei.
Kris doesn't move *that* slowly without the Soul. They're able to get out of the window, slash the tires on Tori's car, and jump back through the window in a little over a minute. That's not fast, but it's not super slow either. I can absolutely believe that Kris is able to make it to the Library and back over the course of a night, even in this state. Hometown is a tiny rural town with no crime, plus the Library has almost nothing of value except the Laptop (all the computers are ancient), so it's quite probable that they don't bother to lock the Library at night (as a matter of fact, not locking the door at night isn't that rare in peaceful rural areas even in real life, it was common in much of the USA before the 70s). If that's true, Kris wouldn't need to break in at all, so there'd be no need to hide evidence of a break-in. Kris is also REALLY tired the next day (Alphys says they slept through the entire schoolday instead of just the start of it as usual).
3:47 why is the knight called the roaring knight like did they say yes this will be my epithet or is that what others call them. perhaps they assume or at least ralsei assumes that is the knight's motive. similar to voldemort being called the one that shall not be named. I don't think voldemort ever chose to be called that it's just what others called him.
we dont really know where lighteners need to wake up after the dark fountain is sealed. in chapter 1 kris and susie woke up in the middle of the card dark world room and in chapter 2 they woke up at the start of the room despite both places not being close to where the dark fountain appeared.
24:03 yes but spamton comes to them AFTER they rebel and it seems to have been a while (and since spamton literally lives in a trash can i assume it would take a while for the news to reach him)
I still strongly believe that Kris Knight is a big possibility. I'm not 100% Kris Knight convinced; I have my own other theories about who the knight could be, but I don't think that Kris can or should be written off as a possibility. I don't think that the fountain creation timeline disporves the Kris knight theory as much as you claim. Kris creating the dark fountain the night before does not need a plot hole to be plausible. When Susie and Kris enter the closet dark fountain for the first time, there is an invisible floor that they stand on before eventually falling down into the section before castle town. We never see this dark fountain, or any dark fountain entrances act like this again. This to me shows that the properties of dark fountains are not 100% consistent. Not because the entrance of the first dark fountain is a plot hole, but because Toby intended for them to be this way. This beginning section creates tension and leads the story to where it needs to go, which could be the same reason that Berdly and Noelle's books were already on the table. There could have been a dark version of the room that Noelle and Berdly entered and set their stuff on before the floor collapsed and they fell into the dark world, just like Kris and Susie in the first chapter. Or, Toby could have put their books on the table because he needed them to believe that they were both dreaming for the plot to move along smoothly, and it wouldn't be a plot hole because the nature of dark fountains are not completely set in stone. They reflect the will of their creator, so Kris could just not want Noelle and Berdly to know about the dark fountains, so when the dark fountain spit them back out, it could have put them into a situation so that it's believable that they're both dreaming. It's possible to move your position in the light world while moving in the dark world. Kris and Susie move from castle town to the card kingdom completely in the dark world. They enter the closet and wake up in the classroom. I personally think it's more of a stretch to say that Noelle and Berdly both fell asleep in the short amount of time that it takes for Kris and Susie to make it to the library, and were both in a deep enough slumber not to notice a magical fountain being created meters away from them. This would also imply that they entered the fountain at the same time as the Knight. Would the Knight have time to form an entire relationship with the dark world's characters before Queen notices that a sleeping Noelle and Berdly are also there? And Berdly and Noelle aren't woken up by being transferred into the dark world (this could happen, I guess we'll see in chapter 3) ? Also, the Ralsei stuff is inconsistant. He is a liar actress, we know this. He could be lying about everything. The reason he meets them in the computer lab dark world only after they arrive could be because he didn't care until Kris was there. We don't know anything about that sketchy mf yet, so his actions can never really be used as proof, becuase we don't know his real motivations. I think that Knight Kris is a very plausible possibility, and shouldn't be completely written off on minor logical and consistency based defenses in a game with a plot that relies on a magic system that we really do not know much about yet, and most of what we do know about it is from a very untrustworthy character. But, again, I don't even one hundred percent believe in Kris Knight, I just think it's a really interesting theory that shouldn't be written off. This comment ended up being extremely long, I promise I'm not actually this defensive about this theory, I am just very passionate about Deltarune. I hope that none of this came off harshly, I think that a lot of what you presented should defiently be considered when deciding what theory to believe. I really enjoy your videos, and I believe in some of the other theores you have made on your channel, I just think you're wrong about this one.
Theres one theory I've heard that I think works best. "The Knight" isnt a person, its a title. Kris is one of the Knights, but maybe not the same Knight who created the Library. It would also just be a really cool twist
I totally agree 👍 I think out of all the theories the two knight theory makes the most sense. Everyone tries to use evidence like Tony's planner intro scene against that, but the intro scene isn't even canon so it's weak evidence and it would still make a great twist by subverting a falsified expectation.
I find the argument about Berdly and Noelle sleeping at the table meaning they were there when the fountain opened very unconvincing. In chapter 1, Kris and Susie emerged in an entirely different room when the fountain was closed
Added to that, Queen's recording of the Fountain opening (presumably taken with her real-world laptop camera) doesn't show Noelle or Berdley in the picture, even though the Laptop that becomes Queen is sitting directly across from where they wake up. If they were there when it was created, it would've been caught on camera.
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand yes but why would they be sitting and asleep? i know this are details that don't really matter since there are more important arguments but if we were to consider them being asleep makes more sense if the knight created the fountain when they were inside
@@OverdadeiroIkarus three possibilities: 1.) Dark Fountains reflect the will of their creator, the Knight wanted Noelle and Berdly to think this was a dream to not put more pressure on them. 2.) A brief lapse in consciousness is normal for coming out of dark worlds for the first time in general, we wouldn't be able to observe Kris and Susie being asleep first coming out of the Card Kingdom since our PoV was asleep at the time. 3.) We don't fully understand dark worlds and their rules yet and likely never will, Toby just wanted them to be asleep and believe it was a dream because that works better for the story he's trying to tell.
although i think the we can complete the game in under 30 min thing is just a gameplay thing i do think time works diffrently. since in cp 2 Ralsei says it feelt like he waited for eges or something, he justifies it as wanting to hang out with his friesnds but i think it implyes that time works diffrently in the d and l world. aslo, i think the d worlds existed before just a gateway oppned with the knight oppening it
*Slamming head against desk* Prepare yourself for a comment chain! 0:53 This is a NONSENSE argument, first of all believing that Kris is the Knight doesn't automatically mean they have to have made that one particular dark fountain at some point in the past. What it might mean is that there needs to be the SECOND dark fountain in the unused classroom but considering that it isn't even **necessary** for the Kris Knight theory to work then there's not a whole lot of point bringing it up and acting like everyone who believes this theory has to subscribe to this idea, This is a borderline strawman argument. 2:19 I'm sorry, wasn't the whole point of Spookydoods original video to show how this is flawed thinking? Yes it doesn't DIRECTLY prove that Kris is the Knight but the fact that any lightner can do it isn't evidence either way. It doesn't prove or disprove Kris is the Knight, but seeing as they're *literally the only character we see doing it on screen* it's like at what point do you apply occam's razor!? 2:33 WHY DOES KRIS NEED TO OPEN EVERY DARK FOUNTAIN TO BE THE KNIGHT? *WHY?!* You can't just launch into an assumption like that and present it as a fact. Why don't you try laying out a case as to why this needs to be when if you'd like to join us in *reality* the only thing that Kris needs to do to be the Knight is literally just open new fountains in spite of the potential danger and for some purpose, whether we know it or don't know it. 3:50 Uuuuh, no. You literally said yourself that the Knight is mysterious and they have been called the roaring knight ONCE, they we're referred to as the roaring knight once and we literally learn later that the Queen doesn't know about the roaring or what opening new dark fountains causes, it was an assumption on her part so you can't even say that the Knight's goal is the roaring which basically demolishes the following point about Kris wanting to cause the roaring. Goofy, goofy argument. 5:13 YES, Yes it is possible! This is the same old tired argument "lOoK hOW sLowLY ThEy wAlK!!!!111" first of all they walk around like that at the end of chapter 1 before they rip the soul out of their body so it's not them "walking around without their soul", *debunked.* Second of all "every movement *seems* painful and arduous" The entire premise of this argument is literally based on conjecture, that is literally what this is. You THINK it seems painful and arduous but like okay, I don't think it seems painful and arduous... where's your argument now? And even if it is *PROVE* this point! Don't just sit there and say it is and then expect us to believe it! that's not how you construct an argument. It especially doesn't seem to limit their movement at all and how do I know this? Because we literally see them, climb out a window then run around the front of their house and slash their own mother's tyres, climb back through the same window and later we see them leap into the air to stab at the floor. This entire thing is completely arbitrary, You're basically saying "oh well they couldn't walk all the way to the library break in and open a fountain why *that'd be impossible!* oh but of course they can break out of their own home, move around it, sabotage a vehicle and then jump back through the same window, that's perfectly reasonable!"
5:36 Okay Reverse time! "If you believe that Kris *isn't* the Knight then you believe that whoever did open the fountain hid in the library closet (at random?) waited until someobody came in (aren't they lucky Berdly and Noelle were there) opened a fountain (again why? Just to fuck with these two teenagers they didn't know would be here?) then immediatley break out, without being seen by either Berdly or Noelle or any of the cars outside *or Undyne* and *all within the span of a few minutes!* Now please, which of these two scenarios seems less ridiculous to you? Before you ask I haven't seen your other video on the Knight, but honestly if it's only reason for existing is to justify this I kind of don't want to. 5:58 Gee do you think that could be the reason why? Like it was written into the story or something? 6:19 Did you just miss the entire point of Spookydood's video? You're acting as if this happening where Noelle and Berdly walking into what *to them* seems like just a dark room is illogical or strange while showing us an example of Kris and Susie *doing literally the exact same thing in chapter 1.* Or maybe they just appeared in those seats because Toby needs a way for them to believe that it was all just a dream, you know, like what the video you're responding to said! What is it about people who theorise that Kris is not the Knight need these hard and fast things to be explained. Like we *have* to explain why Berdly and Noelle are sitting in their seats when the fountain is gone but when it's your turn you don't have to explain anything, you can just vaguely gesture at concepts or reasons as to why Kris *might* open a fountain or why the Knight *might* want to trap Noelle and Berdly in a dark world without having to explain ANY of it and yet in both of these cases they require much fucking better explanations than a justification for why Noelle and Berdly were sitting in those seats when the fountain disappeared. 7:30 YES IT'S UNCLEAR HOW THEY WORK SO THEN WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU SAY THAT THE SCENARIO OF BERDLY AND NOELLE WALKING IN IS IMPOSSIBLE? YOU HAVEN'T MADE AN ARGUMENT AS TO WHY THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE AND THEN YOU LITERALLY ADMIT HOW IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE, *YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF* 7:48 You're right maybe it's not in character for Noelle to walk into a strange dark room, but you know what is in character for her? *To be pushed around and take orders from someone with more confidence and self assuredness,* like oh, I don't know *Berdly might have in this situation.* 8:20 Your evidence for this "heavy implication" that the Library fountain was made in one day is literally one line in the entire game that you can maybe interpret in this one particular way. But again seeing as you haven't given any evidence for us to agree with this interpretation I once again have to say that this is a nonsensical argument. 8:23 HOW *HOW!? IS THAT CLEARLY THE IMPLICATION?* You're setting up another false dilemma argument here by saying that because we *have* to interpret this line of dialogue as being a reference to the Knight then that means Kris *has* to have hid in the closet at night which you then proceed to tear down as an indefensible argument when this is not what people who think Kris is the Knight even believe because it's obviously ridiculous. So this point didn't destroy jack, this is an abyssmal argument. 9:10 It's only Impossible because the entire crux of your argument here that the line about somebody being able to hide in the closet means what you personally think it means is absolutely definitely what it means. If I come along and say "No that line doesn't mean that the Knight had to hide in the closet" your argument COMPLETELY falls apart and Like I said before, you haven't given us a reason to agree with you that this means the knight hid in the closet. All you've done is say "This X text obviously means Y" without backing a single piece of it up.
10:14 Oh you wanna talk about out of character moments? *How about saying that Berdly and Noelle would just fall asleep in the middle of studying?* 12:11 *It's not a plothole. It's only a plothole if you think that that one line of flavour text means what you think it means. It's interpretation, it's affirming the consequent* 14:04 perfectionist fallacy 14:50 Oh I don't know, perhaps because the Knights goals are mysterious and unknown so they might have a reason beyond our comprehension! *Just throwing it out there!* 17:51 Uh no, no this scenario you're making up is out of character and therefore couldn't happen. Like this is the exact same logic you used earlier, do you see how you're holding Kris Knight theory to a double standard? 19:16 Hmm yes, we can't assume that the way characters experience time is the way we experience time in Deltarune... but now that I think about it, if that's the case don't you think that makes it slightly more possible for Kris to, oh I don't know... *run all the way to the library and open a fountain in one night?* Like you just ruined your own argument for us seeing them walking slowly from earlier, *you contradicted yourself yet again.* 22:22 *The Knight did not manipulate Queen,* nothing about the character dialogue implies that. All the Knight did was show up, open the fountain then Queen just took that concept and ran with it, again admitting that what she thought the Knight wanted was an assumption on her part. 23:02 Do you know what TODAY means? Like do you understand how a calendar works? After 12:00 pm midnight it rolls over to the next DAY, Yeah I know we still technically call that "night" but night is nebulous and only refers to the period of time when it's dark, when most people are sleeping. You might argue it's strange for a character to refer to say 1 in the morning as during the day but it might make just a tad more sense if that character was a literal computer who works on an internal clock. 26:07 Yeah and basing your entire understanding of the plot one one single interpretation of a line of text, thus making any deviation from it a "PlOt HoLE!!!!!11" isn't a good basis to base a theory on either which also by the way makes your entire argument based off an assumption, exactly the same thing you tried to call people out for. Good job.
Hey your point hear that why would they wait in the closet she literally states are in the video. You can’t blame her for doing something then directly do it yourself.
I made a comment on reddit that I feel would fit here as to why I think Kris may not be the Knight, so I'll just copy it here. *inhales* There isn't enough evidence to concretely prove anyone is the Knight right now, first of all. Secondly, the Knight is narratively tied to the Roaring (they are referred to as "The Roaring Knight") which we can assume means that they seek to cause it, which opens a massive can of worms. Assuming Kris is the Knight, WHY would they want the Roaring? Their personality shows that at worst they are mischievous and play some mean-spirited pranks on Noelle, but they aren't outright malicious and destructive. Secondly, how do they know all this? How did they learn how to make fountains prior to Deltarune's events? There's no way they could have unless they've had prior experience with Dark Worlds, which they MIGHT have. Kris also willingly seals the fountains, as this is an action they do without our input, even when alone (during the Weird Route no one is with them when sealing it, suggesting that they aren't doing it to maintain appearances). During Chapter 1, when they first see the entrance to the Dark World, Kris seems terrified of it, able to wrestle enough control from the Player to back off from it. If they were The Knight, why were they scared? The Knight, from what we know of them, seems to be incredibly powerful, seemingly upending the Kingdom with its mere presence. Kris' stats aren't all that impressive, which is another reason why I'd say they can't be the Knight (I'd argue they're weaker without their Soul too, which is why they need it/why they move so slow without it). Another reason is that the Knight can seemingly leave Dark Worlds without sealing the Fountains (we know they were briefly in the Chapter 1 Dark World as Seam mentions seeing a "strange knight"). Kris can't do this, and if they could they would have obviously told Susie (we can't control the specifics of what they say, so it is still possible that they could have let something slip to her). I say this because Kris obviously cares about Susie, even in Chapter 1 when they are supposed to be enemies. Also, if you want to argue about it playing into the narrative theme of control, there is the counter-argument that other candidates can also fulfill this. Dess for example, and her controlling Mother, which would also force Kris to confront an obviously painful past of theirs (the Bunker maybe? Dess' disappearance too). We know Dess is similar to Susie, so she'd be a nice foil character too. Another potential candidate I quite like is another human, as it could be a great way to play into Kris' misanthropy and help them overcome it by letting them choose to spare The Knight themself (maybe even link them to Gaster/give them similar feelings about a loss of control in their life?). While Kris can be considered a candidate, there are other things about them being the Knight that simply don't add up. There are other people who can fulfill the role of the Knight in a more satisfying way, and who are suspicious in their own right, but I don't think we should box ourselves in to the idea that the Knight HAS to be someone we know from Hometown so far. Discussing new ideas is always a good thing, in my book.
Kris knight deniers when you ask them why Noelle and Berdley didn’t run out of the room when "The knight" jumped out of da closet and made a dark fountain and also they never mention seeing that happen or anything.
Your video is fundamentally flawed from the outset to me. In a murder mystery, for sure, means motive and opportunity are the important things to prove. Deltarune is not a murder mystery. It is a meta narrative exploring the nature of play, fiction and reality itself. Who the Knight is has literally nothing to do with the fundamental facts of opportunity and motive; we have literally enough evidence to claim anyone in the Light world could be the Knight, and even some evidence it could be a Darkner or two. The important quest is: What does that person being the Knight say about the story? What are the themes and ideas at play? What is... the point? Kris being the Knight has all kinds of interesting implications about the narrative at large. After that, we quickly get into characters that offer no real benefit to the story by being the knight.
Since dark worlds seem to represent escapist fantasies, the knight would have to be someone with a crappy enough life that they’d want to create those worlds. Kris kinda fits the bill, but I could see Alphys being the knight too (and she did messed up stuff in Undertale too).
@@loziclec.1295 Certainly this argument is better than one in the video. And Alphys is a continued presence in the game so there's at least an element of setup-payoff to it
This argument ignores the plotholes that are mentioned in the video, as if plotholes are not important for a meta narrative (spoilers: plotholes are the most negatively impacting elements of a meta-narrative). It doesn't need to not be a murder mystery, we have to ask if Toby Fox would glaze over to big issues like those presented in the video, just to present Kris as the knight, and the answer is NO.
@@juasjuasi4750 The plot holes I often see brought up are things like "The timeline of the day doesn't make sense!" That's not a plot hole. I would put those things as "marginalia". A plot hole is something like a character not making an obvious choice that they should to extend the plot, or a character being irrelevant to the plot despite being presented as central.
@@Asocialite__ No, you are just changing the definition of the freaking word. A plothole is an element in the story that either A: violates the rules of the established narrative or B: violates basic rules of logic that any good story should have. An example of a plothole for the kris knight theory in this case is the fact that Noelle and berdly are sitting in the table *with their books already displayed in it * as if *they were already sitting down preparing to study before the dark fountain was there* This particular example is nasty, you have the game telling you a chain of events that actively contradict the theory, like there is no reason for Noelle and Berdly to sit in a pitch dark room, so they sat down in the lab before the fountain was there, but the theory requires for the fountain to be there all morning (B), and what we saw on the fist dark fountain, you wake up on the floor depending on the location you released the dark fountain, AFAIK, kris and susie woke up right where they jumped into the computer lab, why isn't the same thing for Noelle and Berdly? (A) Accepting the Kris Knight Theory either has no basis in actual logic and is all emotional, or you don't think Toby Fox is a good writer.
I like the idea of Kris being the Knight and we're working to undo what they've done while at the same time wondering if what we're doing, controlling Kris, is alright. Even though they're likely not the Knight this theme will be explored in Chapter 3 as Kris, for sure, did create this dark fountain and we're going to close it.
6:37 how exactly would they look for a light switch on the outside of a room? Not to mention when the the chapter one dark fountain was closed, Susie and kris are not even in the same room, your assumption that they go back to where they where when the fountain was opened is plainly false.
I am still on the camp that the Knight isn't a character we've met yet, and the revela wilk be that.. its nobody we recognize Or, alternatively, it's going to be a situation where the characters have no clue who it is, but WE, Undertale players, do, but itd have to be hard to pull off given Knight theories have proposed about everyone as the Knight
Yeah the library fountain being made by Kris has always been a pretty big narrative reach not only because Noelle going into a ominous pitch dark room seems oddly out off character for her (I mean maybe Berdly rushed in there or something and she wanted to save him but I assume she would have gone and looked for help rather than rushing in herself) but also there's really no motivation for Kris to do this given the risks involved. Like unless the theory some people have that Deltarune is taking place in a time loop is true there's absolutely no way Kris could have reasoned there would be: a) No one walking around at night that would have stopped them. b) No night owls that would have spotted them shuffling down the street from their home and thus would have walked outside to see what's up (I mean Kris IS a teenager so they shouldn't be walking around at like 3am on a school night...). c) No random citizens that would have entered he computer lab in the library and thus fallen into the Dark World (something Kris would know could get them seriously injured or killed). I know Toby Fox isn't a god or anything and thus not immune to bad writing but I just can't see him inserting this ridiculous Batman's gambit moment into the plot given how trope savvy his work typically seems to be.
Noelle is enough of a doormat to go along with anything that another person suggests with a reasonable amount of force, no matter how much she dislikes it, so I can absolutely see her following Berdley inside a dark room. I also don't think Kris' getting to the Library at night is all that hard to believe - Hometown is a tiny rural town, it's very likely everyone would be in bed by that time, unlike what happens in big cities. Even if they did see, the odds that they would actively go and stop Kris are far from certain (Kris is well known as the resident Weird Kid, after all). It's also not that hard to believe that nobody would go into the Computer Lab in the course of a day - the Internet is down across town, so there's little reason to go there at all. Besides, even if someone did - so what? We don't know what Kris' motivation is, and while it's probably not to cause the Roaring (since they could've done that easily by this point if that was their real goal), it's at least important enough to be worth killing Berdley (since his death doesn't dissuade them from continuing to make Fountains). It's possible that Kris is willing to risk hurting or killing other people for their Big Goal, even if they don't actively desire that to happen.
berdly will probably convince nowell that the lights are of and they should turn on the switch thats in character of him. yeah i dont have an argument against the books but i still think it the chapter one end cutscene was pointless without them opening a fountain. what did they do after that cutscene?
The library dark fountain is so heavily debated. It makes me wonder how thorough Toby fox really was with that whole situation. This is gonna be long, but was it really a giga brain setup by Toby? To make you think it was made while Noelle and Birdly was present. Or did he really actually intend it to be open before the two even show up. And they do somehow not question it and jump in. It could happen. I mean. Kris and Suzy did. But then why are they all at the desk nice and tidy? It feels like either way is a little convoluted to me. I do lean towards the knight making it while they were there. But even that still isn’t perfect. Do they really not hear the loud fountain opening sound? And not run from the darkness approaching? It’s not immediate, at the house Kris had time to slowly sit down and put the heart in before the room fills up. Nothing really fits perfectly.
Yeah I think some people are missing that the scene with us all waking up had to have 4 people framed in it somehow. The easiest way to do that is to have them all seated around a table obviously, it'd be awkward to fit 4 people all in a line.
I could easily see it just being people reading too far into things, spurred on by us not having the full story yet and it being intended to be answered in the immediate next chapters during normal gameplay (which is still an important consideration for Toby, the game WILL be finished one day, so it'll need to make sense without 2-3 year gaps between chapters too). I feel it's like Kris happening to have red eyes and "TOTALLY BEING CHARA OMG GUYS!!!!" when its shown that's just a normal physical trait about them by their dark-world entering animation.
There is something to consider tho. I think the reason why everybody woke up at the desk is because they travelled over there, just like they did in the unused classroom (they traversed through it), but your in-character point very much stands. I don't think Noelle or Birdley actually mentioned a dark room after having woken up, but I suppose all we can do is wait and see how that progresses. What I find weird is that they both just agreed to it having been a dream as if you wake up every day and agree on having shared a dream with your friend? Strange reaction, but maybe written to just finish the chapter asap or to not make any of them question it too much. Also, it would make sense narratively that Kris *isn't* the Knight, just like how they look a little like Chara but are not Chara (probably), how they pulled out the knife at the end of the first chapter, then proceeded to eat pie. It's very possible that it's just a red herring on purpose and we *should* be skeptical of it. But on the other hand, I am fully expecting Kris to have some ulterior motive by the end of the game. I want them to do something wild, they deserve it.
OH BTW Kris Knight this, Kris not Knight that- here's a very important question that I don't see being asked: we know that Susie and Kris can leave the Castle Town world whenever they want. If the Knight who is not Kris was involved here, which seems to be the case, and they left the Cyberworld while the Dark Fountain was still active, why the HELL did Ralsei tell Kris and Susie that they would not be able to go home without closing said fountain. * grabs Ralsei by his femboy shoulders and shakes him really hard * WHAT ARE YOU HIDING, GOAT BOY.
Additional point: it's completely irrelevant when a Dark Fountain was made, at least from what we can see, when it comes to determining how much time had passed in the Light World vs the Dark World. The Dark World exists as an entity almost detached from the Light World's timeline, except not. While the Lightners are interacting with the Dark World, there is a passage of time, but during creation, the Darkners and their world receive history from both their Light World counterparts (objects and how they interact with each other) as well as the roleplaying lore. If you created a loreplaying idea right now in a half an hour, bam, you could have created 5 billion years of history. That's why I really don't think that the whole creation timestamp in the Light World actually matters. Darkners have history within the "essence" of their characters as objects in the Light World, but they also have history that does not have to physically exist in the Light World. This is where the "fantasy vs. real life" parallel comes from - Dark World is fantasy which encapulates roleplay, imagination, dreams and escapism, Light World is the realness and the hope, even though both worlds are fiction, and the same can be applied to the reality we exist in in which we are analysing this piece of fiction, but that's a whooooole other can of worms that I have no desire to open and elaborate :) unless you ask. So yeah, the history within the Dark World does not have to have a specific passage of time applied to it so if the Dark Fountain was created 7 seconds ago, the world could still have centuries or millennia of history. Reason? It's its LORE. Or at least that's what I think, we'll just have to wait and see :P
@@godslaughter On the lore, I just assume that while a dark fountain is not open the darkners still live their lives in the dark world. Its just that us lightners do not have any way to interact with them as people instead only seeing them as what they represent in the light world. So they will have history for as long as their light world representation has existed in that space. I do believe Queen says the dark fountain was opened today, to her tho being a computer that would just mean any time from 12am to when she says it.
Regarding how Frisk leaves The Underground during the Neutral endings. I'm rertain I've seen a screenshot of an EMail of that exact question which Toby answered back in 2015/2016. Apparently, the six human souls allowed Frisk to leave The Underground. Sadly, I haven't been able to find this screenshot again. I've looked for it a few times already over the years.
I disagree that the Knight's motivation is to cause the Roaring - if that is the case, then they're stunningly incompetent at their job, since they could easily have just opened a large number of Fountains, or jumped into any of the other Dark Worlds and created another Fountain within them. If the Knight wanted to cause the Roaring, they would've done it by now. The title of "Roaring Knight" is something given to them by Queen, someone who explicitly states that she never actually met them and was just basing her plan on assumptions she made about their motivations. Queen also didn't even know about the Roaring when she said that line, so it's even less likely that this is evidence of the Knight's motivation. I'm guessing that Queen is basing that name off of what she heard when the Dark Fountain was opened in the library (remember, she's a Laptop, and recorded the Fountain's opening on her in-built webcam - she could have also captured the probably-very-loud opening process with an in-built microphone as well).
I believe The Knight/Kris is creating something for Asriel based on their web searches. And they are also creating "video games" to make new friends. I think Kris wants to show Asriel something. And they are experimenting to create the perfect Dark World. Perhaps something to convince Asriel to stay and idolize the loner, Kris.
I still don’t think so many people should think it is physically impossible for kris to be the knight as despite there being a fee things discrediting it, there is definitely far more evidence for it and narrative reasoning for kris to be the knight. But hey, it can really be anybody. If kris is the knight I wouldn’t be surprised but I also would expect for others to be the knight as well. And also it would be a bit strange that they would both be asleep as literally noelle meets up and asks them to study with them not too long before.
This theory is so good! One thing though, in the “a large person could fit in the closet” part, I always thought it was supposed to say that Kris could hide Berdly’s body in there after snowgrave, because I didn’t know that dialogue was there in the normal route also. When you go back to the lab after snowgrave, and berdly isn’t waking up, then I went to the closet and it said “a large body could fit in here” so I thought that would be the reason also, but it is weird it is there in the normal route also.
What surprises me is not that the theory of Kris being The Knight exists. What surprises me is that SO many people IMMEDIATELY jump to that conclusion after seeing Kris open a dark fountain even though we were told TEN MINUTES AGO that any Lightner with enough determination could do it.
fr fr like we almost watched Berdly open up a fountain. Did Kris open the 1st dark world? Maybe, maybe not. I am 99% sure they didn't open the second chapter dark world.
I think the reason that Kris opening a fountain provides strong Kris knight evidence is not because to proves they can, it's because it proves they want to. After being told about the roaring, it is very strange to choose to open more fountains, unless one is the Roaring Knight.
@@emilia935Somewhat, but, the way Ralsei says it implies that, so long they close it, it should be fine, so you could argue Kris is running on the assumption that, so long as they seal the fountain at the end of the day, it'll all be fine and the Roaring doesnt happen
@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard Absolutely, there are ways to explain this. I don't think Kris is the knight. I just don't think we should throw this out as worthless, when if it was the only piece of evidence we had, it would be quite strong.
I would also ask why Kris opens a fountain even after the Snowgrave Route? I would assume that he would have hated what he was forced to do to Noelle, and would have a strong desire to avoid that happening again.
well the queen DID go on a spiel about the knights BLADE opening the fountain, their hand reaching and so on and forth, while giving clear visual indication that this is what Chris does at the end of chapter two, using his knife.
Despite disagreeing with you, I'd like to thank you for being respectful, good debate is always welcome. Either way, Kris Knight is pretty much certain to be either confirmed or debunked in Chapter 3. If a single Darkner in CH3 says that the Knight created this world, then Kris Knight is hard confirmed, or on the other hand, if they refer to the creator of the world by some different title like "Squire", then it's hard debunked. Unless Toby deliberately keeps things vague, of course...
6:16 That argument feels a bit silly..
We know from chapter one that it is possible to move in the real world while you are in the dark world (moving from the storage closet to the unused classroom).
@unluckybean2800 I could be wrong here, but after defeating a secret boss, don't we leave the dark world with their item in our light world inventory? their item going from wherever they were in the room before to inside our pocket could explain why their books moved. I think they could have just carried them like, unconsciously? Not likely but possible
@@unluckybean2800Their books aren’t even open though, they’re just on the table
@@unluckybean2800 Why?
They didn’t have any bags or anything, they just carry their books in their arms. Why is it unreasonable to assume their books could have just ended up on the table?
I don't think kris is the knight, but i didn't think "a large person could easily fit inside here" was a reference to the knight. I thought it was the place where they would hide the body of berdly after the snowgrave route the first time i saw it.
Does Berdly look like a large person to you? He’s a bird and kris isn’t large
@@redbush5483 It was my first impression. Second thought was that it could fit the knight (papyrus could easily fit there) but there is an alternative explanation for why that text is there
I think it's in reference to GIGA Queen, but I like your idea that Papyrus could fit there
Yeah, that sentence it does not confirm that the Knight was in there. I'd like to add that also does not confirm that Kris hid Berdly in there. It just shows possibilities to the player.
@@redbush5483I think the wording messes with people a lot on this one. Just because a large person could fit inside doesn’t mean it’s like a Lego brick specifically made to be a perfect match for a large person. If someone who’s 6’5 could fit in a closet like a glove, I can DEFINITELY fit in the same closet, y’know?
10/10 profile picture
I feel the "Noelle would be too scared" argument is a bit weak.
First, Kris and Susie were hesitant, but they still entered the room. They thought flipping the light switch would solve it because when confronted with something unfamiliar, people sometimes try to make sense of it by likening it to something understandable.
Secondly, and more importantly, Berdly is absolutely boneheaded enough to just walk in there. I can imagine the scene going something like this:
Berdly: Fear not Noelle, for though you may be too meek to enter the unlit room, I, Berdley, the smartest student in the school, am not frightened by superstitions of ghosts in the dark.
Noelle: Aren't your neighbors ghosts?
Berdly: I shall now enlighten the room like how I am enlightened!
Noelle: Berdly wait, I think there's more to it than that!
(she then follows him into the room, and the rest of the game ensues)
Definitely a possible scenario character-wise lol. But... would they not remember that? Darkness billowing out of a room surprisingly and the weird non-euclidian geometry within? Kris and Susie remembered going into the closet for the first time and all the darkness shenanigans that went on beforehand, why wouldn't they?
There's an argument to be made that they do remember, but never talk about it during the cyber world adventure, and then at the end of the chapter chock it up to being part of their dream. That makes enough sense but... in that case they would have to ignore their lack of memory of how they actually got into the computer lab, still causing a contradiction. Berdly is an idiot, but he's also a stickler for details. If he remembered all of that would he really go along with the dream talk? Would he not say something like
"But Noelle! Don't you remember my bravery? I charged into the darkness like a true knight in glow in the dark armor!"
Again, it's entirely possible you're right, but it relies on neither Noelle or Berdly ever thinking about what happened before they passed out, instead of them just studying, the lights go out, and they're in the dark world/a dream.
It is simple . The Dark World was made the Night before. So, the Computer room just looks like a Dark Room. And then during the Day, Berdly and Noelle would simply be walking into a Dark Room. No Smoke. Just Darkness.
Also, Berdly told Noelle he liked Susie, and she strangled the crap out of him, but if it is a dream, then he didn't actually say that. A useful Narrative for his Ego. @@guiltyflygon
I think how the Chapter 2 dark world was formed can mean one of two things; Absolutely nothing, because its not important and the characters don't find the need to mention it, or it could be a key piece of evidence. Until we see how Kris acts in chapters three and four (now coming even sooner!) and how others like Toriel react to being woken up in a dark world versus entering one like Kris and Susie did in chapter 1, we can't say for sure if chapter 2's dark world is meant to be overlooked and treated as a unimportant as the characters do, or if its actually meant to have something deeper to it and not just be a handwave (albeit not that lazy of one, as it actively says someone could have been hiding in the closet and made the dark world behind Berdly and Noelle, who are coincidentally facing away from that very same closet when they wake up...)
I tend to believe that they could get into the room, if if it's dark. Berdly is that type of person that would go inside of the dark room to find the switch. Noelle might go along him because he's leading the path.
However, how would both of them be sitting at the table after coming back from the Dark World? Would they go into the dark room, find no switches, sit at the table and study using books and notebooks with no light? I find that too hard to believe.
One can say that they could have moved while asleep as Kris and Susie did in chapter one, but I think it would be such a big coincidence that they would sit at the table while moving, also Susie and Kris were at the entrance of the computer lab when they went back from the Dark World. It seems to me that they were more likely to be sitting while studying, without the Dark World yet, than moving from somewhere in the room to sit perfectly in the chairs next to the table.
Therefore, I don't believe that there was a Dark World in the computer lab when Noelle and Berdly enteredd the room.
Simple. When a Lightner moves in the Dark World, they move location in the Light World. See Chapter One where Kris and Susie go into Closet but end up in the side room where the Card Kingdom was.
And they don't sit down , they fall on top of the Table. Like they appeared at the table, and fell on it.@@marcelolupatini5553
7:41 it's quite easy to explain. That's right, Noel wouldn't have entered such a room alone, but you have to remember that Berdly was with her. It probably looked like this:
They open the door and see darkness. Noel senses that something is wrong and wants to back out, but Berdly, seeing her fear, begins to rationalize the situation and play the hero (even if he is concerned himself), because his ego will not allow him to do otherwise. Noel, under pressure from her friend, enters the room with him, looking for the light switch, and they fall into the Dark World.
Yeah that's definitely a weak point in my theory. I think she could probably succumb to peer pressure on Berdly's and go in the library.
Technically, yeah, but if they just entered Dark World after it's been created why would they end up in sitting positions?
@@TheSoulCalledZuzia Toby fox probably just didn't foresee that people would make judgments by looking at whether characters were sitting or standing.
@@Plackowicz Maybe, but it feels kinda odd for me. Maybe its just because I care for such details
@@PlackowiczAgain another ‘it’s a plot hole’ theory by saying he just didn’t expect people to check. Okay my theory is that Kris I actually Jesus, proof? It’s a plot hole there you go
15:28 I would like to point out that falling asleep while teaching is out of character for Berdly and Noel. They are both quite diligent students, especially Berdly, who would not fall asleep while studying. Noel, on the other hand, knows that Susie will be coming to the library soon to study with them, so she should be all tense.
the only 2 reasons they would be asleep would be that the Knight put them to sleep before creating the dark world (at which they would be asleep in the dark world).
or as it's suggested (somewhere i don't know) Ralsei put them to sleep to make Susies claim about it being a dream more legit
@@theprinceofawesomeness We can't deny or approve your first theory, but I can argue with the second one. After beating snowgrave Noel wakes up in the computers room, just like in the normal rout, but this time Ralsei wasn't there, but he was with the queen at all time, and Noel was with us while we were closing a fountain. This prooves that you fall asleep after leaving the dark world, or at least that it wasn't Ralsei's work.
@@Plackowicz my 1st wasn't a theory but just a bat shit insane statement for the argument that the Knight was creating the fountain with them in the room. the other is just something that i heard as to explain why Noelle and Berdly are asleep.
FACT: after the dark world stops excising Berdly and Noelle is asleep, nether Susie nor Kris is a sleep in ether chapter after the fountains are closed.
Speculation: ether Susie and Kris is Special and don't fall asleep or someone put Berdly and Noelle to sleep
@@Plackowicz Noelle(not Noel) was implictly in her bed at the end of Snowgrave. Susie specifically went to go check on her. She got up when Kris called her, but she was specifically in a trance or trance-like state. Hence why she was able to hear them at all, despite the distance between them.
@@Missingno_Miner What are u talking about? Noelle freezed Spamton, Kris closed the dark fountain, everyone except Berdly wakes up in the Computers room. At the end of the rout, maybe, but it does't matter in this discussion.
i like how the evidence in favor of kris knight is "they're literally a knight" "they literally open a dark fountain" and the evidence against it is "there's some small things that don't line up"
i don't think its 100% likely that they're the knight but the community has gaslit themselves a little
So true
I mean
There is no reason for kris to plug in tv if they aren't aware of how to open darkworld.
I recently heard others agree with this take so I’m more inclined to share it: I don’t think the Knight’s identity is necessarily supposed to be a mysterious whodunnit situation. It would be up Toby’s alley to make the Knight a recognizable character that excites people, but I think, given how little we know about the Knight’s identity and the way that we aren’t necessarily encouraged to figure out who exactly the Knight is by the game, it’s completely possible that the Knight is a completely original character or one we haven’t been formally introduced to.
You've quickly become my favorite deltarune theorist, love your content.
yeah it would take a lot of time an engery to get to the libary. so much so they would need to sleep all class to make up for it.
Guys, stop being jerks.
Toby Fox is The Knight. He was in the library, so he created it when everyone left.
one thing that always gets me is how many people seem to ignore or not know about "Last Thursday-ism" while I think that's the most crucial part to these timeline discrepancies. How can Sweet Cap'n Cakes have had a relationship with Queen BEFORE their world was created? Since Queen says the world was created TODAY and Sweet and the gang talk about how she was different before the knight showed up.
Last Thursdayism is the belief that all of your thoughts, memories, relationships, and your entire world were created on Last Thursday, and there's no way to disprove that. I think that's the central concept in the dark worlds. The relationships between Spamton, Mike, Jevil, Queen, Cakes, all the darkners, it's all created retroactively stretching from before the Dark world began.
I can see where you’re coming from with this, but there are a few major holes in this idea: Darkners from other Dark Worlds knowing about each other from before their fountains were opened despite the immense distance between them and the objects that they're based on seemingly having no connection that could be used to create retroactive memories (i.e. King and Queen, Spamton and Jevil, and Tasque Manager recognizing Jevil if you have the Devilsknife or Jevilstail equipped when you fight her), Gaster being capable of contacting the secret bosses and driving them insane in the first place, and a good chunk of the lore revealed to us in the Spamton Sweepstakes.
I also don't support the Last Thursdayism theory for a very good reason - it would be incredibly lame. It would mean that every Darkner's backstory is fake and didn't really happen, which robs all of them of any meaning. Feel sad for Spamton's tragic past? Don't be, because none of that ever happened! I think the best solution is to think that Dark Worlds have *some* kind of existence prior to the Fountains opening, and that the Dark Worlds function as something kinda like a "lower level" of reality that happens to be based on Light World objects somehow. To be honest, the whole thing is really messy and confusing because Toby seems to be trying to imply that they both do and don't pre-exist the creation of the Fountains. Hopefully he'll clear it up at some point in the future, but if not, I think we should go with the assumption that's most interesting.
@@CantusTropus Yes, this exactly! I agree with your reasoning wholeheartedly, I was just focused on trying to debunk it from a logistical standpoint.
From the very beginning I’ve always seen it as a sort of meta-commentary on the relationship of reality and fiction and the layers between them; Darkners are real people with their own thoughts, feelings, and relationships in the Dark World but are merely inanimate objects in the Light World prior to the Fountains opening, just like how the characters of UTDR are real people with their own thoughts, feelings, and relationships in their respective games but are merely pixels on a screen to us players. However, the Dark World can affect the Light World like how the Light World can affect the Dark World, and UTDR can affect us and Toby Fox like how we and Toby Fox can affect UTDR.
This is what I feel could possibly be the Knight’s motive or at least one of their motives (wanting the Darkners to exist in the Light World as well and getting other people to see that they’re real people), what most likely drove the secret bosses insane (finding out that they and everything and everyone around them is just a bunch of inanimate objects in a different layer of reality and that they aren’t considered “real” outside of the Dark World), and what I think will ultimately tie into the full game’s central theme and endgame.
“Why do you care so much about whether this world lives or dies? It’s not your reality, its continued existence or complete destruction won’t affect your world in any meaningful way.”
“It doesn’t matter if it’s the ‘real’ world to me or not. It’s the real world for the people who live in it, and that alone makes it worth saving.”
Because they existed as ideas way before the dark fountains were ever opened.
The fountains only gave them a corporeal form, for a short period of time.
Most of the points in this video are total junk based only on biased interpretation or are just flat out strawmen.
For just one example, at 8:40 to 9:15 when you say it's impossible for Kris to have opened the fountain in midday, which yes, it is impossible for that to be the case, *but that was never the case that Kris knight supporters argued in the first place.* Everyone who accepts that Kris Knight is possible, which it is, *argues that it would have been in the early hours of the morning that day, when it was still dark out, that it happened.* You can't just construct a strawman out of the fact that it couldn't have been done by Kris in the daylight hours and say that it "100% disproves Kris Knight". That's just arguing in bad faith.
Every other point in the video, as I said, is based only on biased, or flat out contradictory, interpretations, or is a strawman, and I will gladly explain how each point is so if anyone is interested.
I’m curious
@@IcyDiamond Which point in particular are you curious about? I can't post them all at once, that would be an enormous comment.
Ultimately, I prefer Black Chestnut's arguments in favour of Kris Knight - namely, that it is far and away the simplest and most natural conclusion to come to for someone playing through the game without them getting knee-deep in the weeds of the Theory Community. Every other theory involves not only massive amounts of speculation, but also requires you to assume that the Weird Red Flags about Kris (end cutscenes of both Ch 1 and Ch 2 most notably) are ALL red herrings meant to distract you. Why would Toby even bother throwing that many fakeouts? For instance, the ending of Chapter 2 is either the reveal of Kris Knight or else a HUGE red herring, and one that can only really work specifically because we are currently in the middle of a hiatus - once Deltarune is actually finished, a player will go right onto Chapter 3 mere minutes after seeing Kris open the third Dark World, and it's very likely that Kris Knight will either be proven or debunked in said chapter (all it takes is a single Darkner in Chapter 3 saying that the Knight created this world, or else identifying someone other than the Knight as the creator). So if Chapter 2's ending is a fakeout, then it's a fakeout that in the finished game will only work for like 20 minutes. That seems really odd.
That reasoning doesn't work when we only have 2 chapters available. The fake out works cuz toby knew that the time between ch2 and ch3 would be massive
@@scantyer I don't think you understood their argument.
They were saying the exact same thing you are saying, that the fake out works because there are only two chapters right now but soon there will be more and their will also be new players. Imagine a new player seeing the ending to chapters 2 believing that Kris is the knight, because that's obviously what the ending wants you to think even if it's a fake out, and then they play through the rest of the game and see that actually Kris wasn't the knight and so ending chapter 2 like that was completely pointless.
This person is arguing that Toby wouldn't write a fake out that only works during the wait period for chapter 3 and 4 since he knows most players in the future won't be present for that
I don't think your evidence makes it impossible for Kris to be the knight. Kris's slow shambling movements could be temporary after removing the soul or it could be a stylistic choice to appear creepy. Also, Kris and Susie wake up in a classroom full objects representing the dark world they just traversed despite entering from the closet, meaning one's position can and does change when in the dark world. I'd argue that it actually intentionally places people in positions that allow them to rationalize what happened (ie Kris and Susie wake up in a classroom with similar objects and Noelle and Berdly wake up from "napping" during studying.) I still think it's entirely within the realm of possibility that Kris opened the dark portal the night before Chapter 2. If anything, Noelle and Berdly believing it was a dream the same way Susie did makes total sense and gives a perfect explanation to the strange magical qualities of the dark world and how it messes with people. Is it constructed with cold, hard logic? No. But it's a story with magic and alternate worlds, so it's going to have to bend the rules a little to give us a mystery that properly engages with the fantastical systems at play. I think calling it a "plot hole" or "bad writing" is a bit of a bad faith argument against the dark world having the ability to manipulate the position and surroundings of people within the dark world, since chapter 1 already established that it was possible. I also think calling the knight the main antagonist is a bit too hasty with how little we really know about the full story so far. Of course, I think it's impossible to say Kris is definitively the knight, but I also don't understand the insistence that Kris CAN'T be the knight or that it would be boring, since personally I think Kris would be one of the more interesting candidates. I think a lot of the evidence you and Spooky brought up are a bit extraneous and don't really prove much if you shift around dialogue meanings and other semantics.
(Respectfully)
I really feel that Noelle and Birdly sitting like that is just video game logic / the fact we don’t know how exactly fountains function. Like they could have been doing anything after the fountain closed. Its not a plot hole- its just inconsequential to the story so the writers decided “oh Noelle thinks its a dream so she wakes up as if she was napping”. If they were just all standing in a circle together it would be weird if Noelle was like “oh haha I just dreamt while standing up”. Ultimately there is no rule that says when a fountain closes you must be in some position.
~
Either way I’d like to clarify I enjoyed the video. I just feel that similar to Spookydude’s video, any theory claiming Kris *CANT* be the knight isn’t actually that solid. I think its totally possible that they aren’t, but as of now they are the simplest answer that the average non-theorist player can foresee.
I went on a ramble about this in other videos but writers aren’t writing for theorists- they’re writing for the average audience. Kris COULD totally be a red herring, but as of now hard evidence of this being a red herring is… lacking. There’s only minor points that make it possible.
I know this is a nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Toby Fox is the only writer lol
@@catdownthestreet as a fellow indie developer,
Toby may be the writer but it’s highly unlikely he doesnt at least bounce ideas off friends.
If he does work alone for the story then honestly just. Wow thats gutsy lol
@@ABDERAMBL yeah, i wasn't ruling that out lol. It's just pretty clear that Toby is the main writer.
@@ABDERAMBL Isn't he basing the entire game off of a fever dream?
Also, about the 'Kris is Knight' theory, there was actually a scrapped intro sequence in which Team Friendship would walk up a staircase, past shadowed bosses. At the end of the staircase, they'd confront the Knight. So, unless there's somehow two Krisses in that intro sequence (which I don't find likely), I think it rules out any of Team Friendship.
@@dominickeijzer5844 1. It could easily be that the knight appearing is a metaphor- intros are rarely based in reality.
2. No- he specifically said he dreamt the ending of Deltarune. Even then i doubt his brain invented every single charachter in that instance it was probably just the vague premise lol
I'm personally still holding on to my theory that Kris just did this for selfish reasons and the fact someone else opened a dark world is going to tip the Knight off that someone's onto it.
That’s what I was thinking, they slashed the tires so that Susie would stay over, and left the door open to let Undyne in to prove dark worlds exist, but mostly, they wanted another adventure with their best friend Susie, for whom they think can break the strings on their soul.
@@jacksonvoet8312 you get it! i fully agree
Objection! The defense is using strong language such as "impossible" and "plothole" in an attempt to lead this court, your honor.
The defense's case hinges on the assumption that, once a Dark Fountain is sealed, one would appear in the exact same same spot they were before.
This assumption is false. Kris and Susie weren't transported back to the closet when the Card Kingdom Fountain was sealed. And they didn't appear at the door when the Cyber World Fountain was sealed either.
Furtermore, the defense's proposed timeline of events does not match reality. To prove that, I'd like to call in a new witness:
Plug Girl: "Recently, something called 'Internet' is having an 'outage'. Some say it was the secret to Queen's know-how. Since then, it seems like she's become quite extreme..."
According to this witness, Queen's change in behavior coincided with the internet outage.
According to our previous witnesses, Queen's change in behavior coincided with the Dark Fountain being created.
If we put these two testimonies together, it reveals that the Dark Fountain being made coincided with the internet outage.
I have a written affidavit from a teacher in the local school, stating that the internet was already out at the early hours of the previous night.
This contradiction exposes the defense's proposed timeline as the conjecture it really is.
This crime happened in the previous night, and even the defense admits the defendant's alibi for that time cannot be verified.
Subjective addition. It is very likely the Dark Fountain creation is actually what knocked out the Internet. Which the Knight probably knew would happen, thus making the Queen the way she is.
Further, that would direct Noelle and Berdly actions because now, they cannot do their assignment at their own houses and sent it. They have to go to the computer lab to print it there. Plus, they won't be able to stay separate physically, and , like, Skype.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 This is incorrect. Queen says in her battle that the town's internet disappeared, then the Knight created the Fountain.
I am so sorry. It was a nice theory.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Well... I guess the Knight may still have sabotaged the internet on purpose, but not as a result of the Fountain.
Perhaps. I get the feeling that if Queen still had access to the "Internet" , she might not be a proper Boss for this world. Because the Lightners can no longer "click to feel pleasure" and "click to avoid pain" she is given a Motive.
Further , it cuts off continued access to Kris's search history...
@@gabrielrochadasilva3183
And yes, the Fountain doesn't have to directly cause the Internet to go down.
But I would also like to point out that before the Dark Fountain gets made, The Queen is just a laptop. She isn't alive to witness the Internet disappearing, and she isn't aware she "saw" the Fountains creation until she watches the video her body made before she started existing.
So, she is literally guessing the timing of events, like she is literally guessing/"calculating" most of the things she does..
However, this all still means Both the Dark Fountain and the Queen were made by the Knight the Night before. And the Implication is the Knight cut off the Internet specifically to give Queen her Villainous motive (No Internet means Queen will speculate expanding the Dark World can replace the Internet for Lightners, making her Dangerous)@@gabrielrochadasilva3183
13:37 It was never established that when you get out of a Dark Fountain you have to be in the place you were when you entered it. For example: Kris and Susie entered Ralsei's Dark Fountain, but then they woke up in the other room with the closet and chess stuff.
that's because once they entered the Gold doors to the right of Ralsei's Dark fountain, they entered that Dark world classroom. There's a door leading to the closet in the unused classroom. It wouldn't make sense to basically teleport into Ralsei's Dark fountain after the Classroom fountain closed, since they aren't in the closet anymore.
@@Natalie-nv5iq yes I know, that's literally my point, they don't wake up from the dark fountain in the same position as they enter, exactly like it may have happened with Noelle and Berdeley.
@@loubaxo9339
But those are completely different circumstances? One involves moving from one dark world to another, and the other involves just one dark fountain.
@@tobiasbayer4866 Still, there's nothing indicating one will wake up from the Dark World in the same position as when it entered it.
@@loubaxo9339
There also isnt any evidence that you randomly move somewhere else and there definitely isnt any evidence that entering a dark world takes the things you are carrying and places them somewhere in the room. Infact its the opposite. You keep all of the objects you enter with with you.
Nevermind the fact that the cyber world dark fountain is the only one we have actually seen the exiting process of. When Kris and Susie existed the unused classroom fountain it was dark and they stumbled around. No Idea where they appeared.
All of the circumstantial evidence points to you exiting the dark world where you entered it.
I don't know why all these theories insist that Noelle and Berdly need to have been seated where they woke up when the fountain was created considering that Kris and Susie ended up in a completely different location when exiting the Dark World in Chapter 1
There's a difference for that. The closet is Ralsei's dark world. The great door, which they go through, is the door to the unused classroom. They enter a whole new room. For the library, there's one room.
Also, why would the dark world magically have all their study equipment in the perfect place if they hadn't put it there?
we honestly have 0 actual evidence of anyone being the Knight, but i can only say that for all laws of story telling Kris should be the knight and the end of Cha 2 it's revealed to us. any other scenario with the current evidence is hard to make satisfying (it could be done but i don't think toby could pull it of)
Exactly. With the current evidence Kris knight is the only solid choice. Chapter 3 and 4 might change it but that is for the future to prove.
disagreed.
the identity of the Knight is a mystery, so it's obvious it won't be revealed until the very end. and theres no laws of storytelling that prevent misdirections taking place.
@@TrixyTrixter exactly. with the *current* evidence. Deltarune isn't even finished, so saying that "with the current evidence, Kris knight is the only solid choice" when we don't even have all the needed information (we aren't even half in the story) is stupid. of course we won't get all the information 2/7 in the actual game.
also, i feel like if you were told "manipulating someone into stabbing the ground will create a paradise," and then suddenly, easily manipulatable teens show up, you'd be like, "damn, guess im creating paradise." and then, that very guy comes back, trying to stop you, you'd be like "uh bro? what the hell? im trying to create a paradise YOU told me about, what are you doing?" in my mind, i feel like queen would immediatly mention this.
The Queen didn't see the Knight's Face as a Laptop in the Light World, just their Knife and Hand. The Paradise idea is just connections she made by herself. Incorrect assumptions made to please "her gods"./Lightners. Using the Dark World to replace the Internet she cannot access anymore for Lightner entertainment.
Queen admits she never met the Knight and was working based off of assumptions, and the recording of the Fountain opening explicitly states that there's too much smoke to tell who's standing there. That means Queen doesn't actually know the Knight's appearance or motivation.
@@CantusTropus damn true, I may be stupid.
After watching the entire video, I can debunk every single claim in it
Every single one
But it would be a ton of work so I will only do it if at least one person says they're interested
Just let me know
I always enjoy when people respectfully disagree with another person's theory. There's too much hate that people spread around cause of a difference in opinion over a game. Great Video!
"respectfully"
I dont think that Noelle and Berdly's positions really matter when it comes to this argument. It can be assumed that in a room with a dark fountain in it, the room briefly becomes a void, just like we see in chapter 1. Its likely that all the walls disappear, which means it's likely all the tables disappear too. If the tables are gone, its very believable to think that Noelle and Berdly walked in, tried to find a light switch, but couldn't. Then they thought "maybe its on the back of the wall?" Attempted to walk back there, but eventually finally fell into the dark world, dropping their books on the ground where the table would be. Nothing about that scenario seems like a strech to me. When they woke up, they and their books were placed right where it would make sense for them to be, just like Kris and Susie in both chapter 1 and 2. Noelle and Berdly.
Noelle and Berdly laying down on the table with their books down is very weak evidence at best, and at worst, maybe even disproves the idea that the dark fountain was created with them inside. We see that making a dark fountain takes a few seconds, and unless Kris has some supernatural powers able to withstand the pouring darkness, you are fully able to walk around before the darkness resches you. That is PLENTY of time for Noelle and Berdly to walk out of the room.
You are telling me, that some random guy jumped out of the closet, violently stabbed the earth and sent a bright explosion directly into the pupils of two kids, and they didnt freak out?? They just sat politely in their seats and immediately fell asleep? I find it much more likely that they would have ran away screaming, or that they would have at least some sort of vague memory of seeing the knight.
I feel like Kris could have easily had enough energy to make it to the library during the night. We see them chuck their heart at the birdcage with more power than a baseball pitcher and then they jump through their bathroom window with the finesse of a ballerina. Getting in and out of the lab seems like a minor enough detail to be ignored, and its likely that the town is so safe that many people just leave their doors unlocked. It's definitely got that vibe.
Not to mention, the knight hiding in the closet... Just feels so juvenile. Like its some (presumably grown man) hiding in a closet for two random kids to arrive and freak them out. Doesn't feel like something the "Roaring Knight" would be seen doing unless they needed Noelle and Berdly, which I doubt they did.
Perhaps the knight made the dark fountain while inside the closet. I mean, a giant flash of light from inside the closet would be hard to overlook, but then again it would also be pretty hard to sleep through a giant flash of light that's a couple feet away from you. The creation of a dark fountain is apparently more stealthy than it may first appear.
The only thing we can confirm is that someone who walked into a dark world will be able to remember walking into it after they leave, even if they think everything after that was a dream. This would've been the perfect place to have them ask how the lights came on or have them reference the bizarrely dark room in any way, but Toby only has them acknowledge that they entered the computer lab and fell asleep.
Also, yeah the knight being forced to hide in the closet would be kinda goofy, which slots him perfectly among the ranks of the other kinda goofy Undertale/Deltarune villains like Asgore, Flowey, Spade King, etc. Hell, the chapter literally ends with the main villain actually learning what her evil plot does and just declaring herself to be a good guy, Deltarune ain't afraid to be a bit goofy.
@@mrmetang3642 "Toby only has them acknowledge that they entered the computer lab and fell asleep" maybe noelle just didnt want to sound insane
when kris makes the fountain in chapter 2 the sound that plays is literally called !snd_fountain_make" but my theory is that the knight is a whole new character and not anyone from hometown (maybe dess but she is missing)
7:27 - You do realize that entry rooms to Dark Worlds having non-normal geometries works *against* your argument, not *in favor of* it, right? - It means that you just straight-up can't determine movement in these rooms for certain one way or another.
Incidentally, there is another thing to note about your video: You claim that Noelle and Berdly are _sitting_ at the table with their heads resting on it. That's not true. They aren't sitting at the table, they're half bent over it - _maybe_ kneeling on the floor, but it's not quite clear. There are no chairs where they are. They definitely haven't been sitting.
This could be read in one of two ways: You could say that it's evidence for your theory, because it pretty much proves that they were caught completely off-guard by the fountain opening. Or you can read it as evidence that the open books are just an oversight, because them standing around instead of sitting, but with their books open, is at least a little bit odd.
I think Books are something that was on their person's in the Dark World, and appeared as different objects. Also. the books aren't open.
@@tarvoc746
wysi
@@ihaetschool3361 Are you referring to the position of Noelle and Berdly, or to something I missed?
@@tarvoc746 I think it's because of the OSU community, where they typically say "wysi" whenever they see the number 727 as a meme. You pointed out the timestamp 7:27.
@@UnoriginalJokester Maybe I'm just being stupid right now, but what's the OSU community?
i dont think kris being the knight makes them evil
The problem I have with the timeline is that it only works if the fountain was somehow created in the same place and time as Noelle and Berdly, but without either of them noticing what was happening.
The only believable way I could see this happening is if the fountain was opened within the closet, and when the closet door opened the darkness covered the rest of the room with Noelle and berdley inside.
As for why the darkness can spread here but not it the school? The school has windows in the hallway, so it can't covered the same way a single room can.
The knight could have just created the fountain, and just left the closet and closed the door.
I think this explanation works, and it removes the need for the knight to create the fountain at that time. As for why the closet door opened? IDK, perhaps they needed a textbook and the library had it in storage. It's a bit contrived, but the less so than any other option I've seen. This works no matter who the knight is, I just don't think the fountain could have been created the way the timeline describes.
The location of Noelle and berdly once the fountain is sealed is a problem, but Kris and Susie also moved locations in chapter 1.
Side note:I also just assumed Kris could run there if he needed to, but his movements are stiff and segmented because he's in pain. Although, the idea of Kris slowly waddling across town is pretty funny. But the difficulty of getting over there is definitely still good evidence against the Kris Knight theory.
0:14 I thought someone just knocked on my window that nearly gave me a heart attack
On the topic of whether Noelle & Berdley would walk into the Lab while the Fountain is active, I don't think it's that difficult to imagine happening. At first it would simply look like a dark room, and I can see Berdley going in to search for a lightswitch. Noelle is a coward, yes, but she's also a total doormat (to the point where you can bully her into committing murder in the Weird Route), so I can see her following Berdley inside if he just showed a little bravado (something that's well within his character). Either way, it seems a bit more logical than assuming that they went in and then just decided to fall asleep instead of actually studying like they were supposed to, especially since there aren't actually any chairs on that side of the table (they're slumped over standing up). If they didn't fall asleep, then they'd presumably notice the Fountain being opened (it's far from a subtle process, plus they'd probably see the Knight holding a knife or blade of some kind, which would probably freak them out). Besides, by that day the traffic jam had already started, so there's no way the Knight could have escaped from the Library without being caught by Undyne.
So let me get this straight the knight walks into the library and decides to walk into the room and hide in the closet and then when he sees Noelle and Berdly walk into the room he waits for them to sit down and then only then he decides to create a dark fountain and sprint out of the room as fast as possible and some how Noelle and Berdly don't see this man bust out of the closet and sprint out the room, and your calling the idea that Kris uses armor and swords and shields all things commonly used by knights goofy, yes because using imagery to hint to character motivations and plot twists is an entirely ridiculous thing that has only been done in most great works of fiction god forbid we use imagery and artistic choices to make our theories instead relying on plot holes that the author didn't even which by the way aren't even plot holes
1 - Look I know Noelle is a timid but, being to afraid to walk into a dark room what do you thinks gonna happen if she see her shadow. Look I know Kris and Susie were somewhat afraid to walk into the room originally but that still doesn't make it an impossibility that Noelle could have walked into the room. Also, all of this ignoring Berdly who I know doesn't exactly seem the most brave but, his presents their does put social pressure onto Noelle who probably wouldn't want to look like a 5 year old who couldn't walk into a room because it was to dark. Also, all of this is ignoring the fact that Noelle likes to explore things that scare her, you that key aspect of her personality which only helps her to tie into the greater theme of escapism that the grand narrative is clearly trying to use
2 - Is it really that big of a deal that Noelle and Berdly woke up on the desk because it's not like the only other time we've seen someone come out of dark world they ended up in a whole other fucking room but, there must be some significance to these character waking up on the desk. It's not like them beginning there helps them to actively helps to make them think that they just woke up from a dream. No its not like if they woke on the floor they'd be somewhat confused to how they all passed out on they floor like somebody chloroformed them and it would turn into that one scene from Community
3 - Does nobody remember what the man in the closet quote was referring to because what it was referencing was not that a man waited in the closet for two kids to walk into a library only so he could sprint out, it was referencing to the fact that you could hide Berdly's dead body in the closet. Now I might be mistaken but, I'm pretty sure that quote is only seen in the weird route. You the route where Berdly is dead and order to allude to that death and show that he's not just sleeping a bunch of dialog was changed
I'll give you some evidence like the fact that Kris walks slow but, everything else is just pure nonsense if you know what your talking about. There is some questions brought up by your theory that I find quite interesting, why was no one else in the library or if some one was in the closet why did they wait for Noelle and Berdy to show up and did they know they were coming. I mean you can't make fun of the sans is ness theory when your theory just has twice as many holes as that theory. I mean Jesus Christ! Now for be it from me to speak for Toby Fox or know what's going on in his head but as a writer and someone who has made stories with twist like this a kind video like this would make me go ape shit. It creates plot holes from nothing and it kind of refuses to go along with the storytelling in favor of your own view on things and in way that feels kind of insulting like your refusing to focus what your being told because it isn't interesting or clever enough to captive and are instead ripping it down by using these made up plot holes. Engaging with media like this just feels stupid, wouldn't be better to analyze the story and the themes contained within. Like how if Kris is the knight how much sense that would make and would it would say for his character and story going forward. Look don't let me tell you to engage with media but, I think if don't look into the greater stories or lessons behind many of the thing we all consume you'll miss out on some truly interesting and life changing lesson from all kinds people and I personally wouldn't recommend that
regarding your first paragraph, no, she says that the knight snuck into the dark world with them unnoticed, which has the potential of happening.
3. That's a fan theory and has no proof.
You didn't get it straight, she literally explained it in the video.
The Knight enters the Computer Lab to open a Dark Fountain, but Noelle and Berdly walk in and that makes the Knight hide in the closet, Noelle and Berdly then fall asleep, the Knight leaves the closet, opens the Dark Fountain and leaves the library.
1. Noelle isn't just timid she's specifically a scaredy cat, a people-pleaser and a coward, she's interested in scary things but only from afar, that's why it took her so long to befriend Susie. It's also stupid that both Noelle and Berdly would willingly walk into a scary and dark room but still believe it was all a dream.
2. It is a big deal and this is the first time we've seen someone come out of a dark world on a whole other side of the room.
Them waking up there literally helps them believe it was all a dream, that's the point.
3. No man is mentioned, the dialogue says "A large person could easily fit inside" and Berdly is visibly not a large person, there'd be no point in hiding Berdly's body anyway since Kris robs everything else in that room and it's not like a closet is a good place to hide a body.
Sans is Ness definitely does not have as many holes as this theory, that's a disingenuous comparison.
Creating plot holes out of nothing and refusing to go along with the storytelling in favor of your own view is exactly what you're doing, what you're saying and your tone are way more insulting than a video that literally just says "I disagree with this theory about the story of a video game".
Are you really gonna argue that Noelle came to ask Susie to come study, walked to the library, and within minutes of starting goes to sleep together with Berdly? Like man, this was not hours upon hours of time that they were there before we got there. Its an extreme stretch to try and tell me that they went to do a thing and just decided to sleep instead.
1. Computer room has no windows, it being dark can and more than likely would be easily explained by Berdly or both that the lights are off. As we saw in chapter 1, you don't necessarily fall immediately upon walking into a dark world room as both Kris and Susie walk far into the closet before anything happens. Would it be weird for the room to be so dark? Yes. Would it stop them from walking inside if like out first main character they assume its just the light being off? No.
2. Not the first time, chapter 1 enter the closet. Come out right in the middle of the empty classroom, including Susie specifically asking Kris if what happened was real. Its clear that exiting a dark world at least for the first time is not as clear as just "Wow that was amazing" seeing how it was even a question at the end of chapter 1's world where we know Susie was not sleeping.
3. The line "A large person could easily fit inside" really only tells us one thing for sure. That the closet is big enough to fit a a large person easily. Berdly is not a large person, therefor they can also fit inside of there. While I do not agree with the idea that its just a quote for hiding Berdly, it is infinitely better to place him into the closet after the weird route than to leave him slumped over the desk assuming Kris even cares about that.
The hops that one needs to jump through to "Debunk" that Kris could have opened the library portal is honestly way more of a stretch than just assuming for now that he did. In the end we will see what happens, and what the story does tell. Its entirely likely that Toby did not want the "Who is the knight" thing to be the main mystery so just got it out of the way early so he can set up something way more interesting.
Counterarguments from the prosecutor:
Even though you did mention the narration text when interacting with the TV, you didn't mention how a lot of people (including myself) use it as evidence for Knight Kris.
Chapter 1 - "It's the TV. Doesn't even seem to be plugged in anymore."
Chapter 2 - "It's the TV. Seems to be plugged in, but it's dusty."
The only person who could've reasonably been the one to plug in the TV is Kris. And since they turn it on right before making the fountain, this suggests they knew how to make fountains PRIOR to Queen's explanation. And to address your claim that Kris plugged in the TV to watch it while eating the pie, I'd like to emphasize the fact that the lines say the TV is dusty, and that it "doesn't seem to be plugged in *anymore,"* hinting that it hasn't been used in a while. The fact that Kris plugged in the TV for the first time in AGES clearly means something deeper. There's also the noteworthy sink dialogue:
"It is not yet time to wash your hands."
"This is the kitchen sink. You could wash your hands here. But, isn't the sink in the bathroom better?"
If these lines were simply meant to be foreshadowing, why word them so suspiciously? Also, if Kris was just innocently going to eat the pie & watch TV, why depict them as so malicious? Them pulling out a knife while maniacally smiling at the camera doesn't exactly scream "poor innocent kid" to me.
Not to mention how literally *no one other than Kris* has legitimate in-game evidence supporting them being the Knight. Except maybe Alvin, but that's debatable.
While your argument about the fact that Kris making a fountain doesn't prove their guilt makes sense in the *real world,* you have to remember that this is a *story.* You must look at this from a writing perspective. The player literally just learned how the Knight makes dark fountains, only to show Kris doing the exact thing described soon after. No one, other than theorists, would have any reason to believe the Knight is anyone but Kris after this setup & payoff. Again, in the real world, you're absolutely right. But purely from the perspective of this being a story being told with intent, there's a clear message being sent here.
Queen's statement that any lightner could create a fountain is doubtful, considering she says that she was just making assumptions based on the Knight's actions. Berdly may have been unsuccessful in creating his fountain, and Ralsei stopped him because, even though he knew monsters can't make fountains, he didn't want to take the risk of letting Berdly do it anyway given what's at stake.
We don't really know how mobile Kris is without the soul. Sure, they're shown to struggle, but the times we actually get to see them without their soul, ESPECIALLY at the end of Chapter 1, are very short. This argument is based entirely on the assumption that Kris cannot survive without the soul for as long as it takes to open the Cyber World fountain, which we can't know for a fact.
Pretty much the only thing supporting the "Knight made the fountain while Noelle & Berdly were inside" argument is their position when the fountain is sealed. However, consider Kris & Susie's positions. Despite entering the dark world through the entrance to the lab, after the fountain is sealed, they're shown at the opposite end of the table. A good few feet away from where they entered the room. And no, the jump doesn't count, since if it did, they would also be facing the entrance to the room, as they were shown to rotate 180 degrees. This disproves the assumption that lightners wake up in the same place they entered the room after the fountain is sealed.
Also, for Noelle not being willing to enter a dark room... consider Berdly. He could've convinced Noelle to come in at the same time with him similar to what Susie did. I'd also like to mention how it's very strange to claim that Noelle & Berdly fell asleep while studying. If Noelle truly was tired enough to fall asleep within the literal couple of minutes between her interaction with Susie & us finding the computer lab fountain, she would not have acted as energetic as she did when she was talking with Susie. Not to mention how out-of-character it would be for nerds like Noelle & Berdly to suddenly fall asleep while studying.
As for the closet, there are alternate explanations to this. It could be a gag in reference to Giga Queen. It could also be a hint that Kris hides Berdly's body in the closet post-Snowgrave, which is what I personally believe. And before anyone says anything, I'll address them:
*"It specifies a large person, and Berdly isn't large at all!"*
The fact that it specifies a large person has less to do with hinting that a large person has been in there, but more a statement of convenience. Like, "Oh, how convenient that a large person could easily fit in here, and thus very easy to stuff Berdly in here."
*"Why would this line appear in the normal route, then?"*
The normal route shouldn't totally be banned from including foreshadowing to the weird route. Take a look at Lancer's line when Noelle joins your party. He says "Can we make them a bad guy?" when talking about Noelle. This is simultaneously a reference to Lancer's obsession with being & making people bad guys, while also subtle foreshadowing to Snowgrave. While that is a bit debatable, my point still stands that weird route foreshadowing shouldn't totally be disregarded as a possibility. The closet line is a one-off, seemingly meaningless line that suddenly gets re-contextualized in the weird route.
I think it's entirely possible that Ralsei just failed to sense the fountain until he joined us in the Cyber World. I mean, think about what Ralsei was doing all this time. He was busy setting up rooms for Kris, Susie, and Lancer. And just recently, new faces showed up in town. It's very reasonable to assume that Ralsei was too preoccupied to sense the Cyber World fountain. It's also possible he didn't sense the fountain at all, but rather some vague feeling. You admit yourself that it's possible for the fountain not to have been what he sensed.
Queen saying that the Knight created this fountain "Today" makes sense as an argument from a human perspective, since we consider hours like 3 AM "last night." But here's the thing: Queen is a computer. Computers start days at 12 AM. Meaning it's entirely possible that Kris opened the fountain AFTER midnight, but BEFORE dawn.
I also feel you're emphasizing SpookyDood's "let alone a week" line far too much. That's not his point. What he's trying to say is that it'd take more than a measly few minutes for the Sweet Cap'n Cakes to notice Queen's behavior. I personally feel a single night would be more than enough for them to notice Queen's change in behavior, especially when considering the other alternative.
To support this, I'd like to mention that in the Undertale 6th Anniversary livestream, Toby Fox himself confirmed that it was the fountain that corrupted King & changed his behavior, not the Knight. Meaning it's entirely possible that the same thing happened to Queen (especially since she confirmed she was guessing based off the Knight's actions), and thus the Knight did NOT need to enter the dark worlds.
On your first paragraph regarding the framing of Kris in chapter 1: Toby Fox said himself that he wanted Chapter 1 to be an inversion of expectations, he wanted it to feel like Undertale but have your expectations be subverted as the story goes on. Obviously, the ending stinger to chapter 1 with Kris smiling "maliciously" is a red herring that Toby delivers on at the beginning of Chapter 2. It was another subversion of our expectations going into the game proper. Also, what is your "legitimate in-game evidence" that Kris is the knight, because I find that highly objectionable. Even if it were true, don't you think it'd be silly for Toby to show his hand so soon, especially with such large lengths of time between chapters?
The player just learned how to make Dark Fountains but do you know who else just barely did too? KRIS. What evidence do you have that monsters can't make fountains? i don't believe there is any difference between humans and monsters other than humans being, well, human. Don't bring your Undertale assumptions into this game.
Okay now you're just assuming Kris without the soul is an olympic runner when LEGITIMATE IN-GAME EVIDENCE shows that they can't move easily at all. You're starting with the conclusion that Kris is the knight and then scrounging up evidence to support your claim, that is the opposite of how you should approach theories. YOu should always try to tear your own theories down, and only believe them when they stand up to the highest scrutiny.
Regarding their positions upon waking up in the Dark World I actually agree with you. There's an obvious spacial disconnect between the dark world and the light world, not just tied to position but also to state-of-being. While Kris and the gang were in the dark world, I think they were probably asleep in the physical world.
No, you're wrong. It says a a large person can fit inside on both routes, not just Snowgrave. Why would it say that on a route where Berdly isn't even in the room anymore? Lancer's line in the normal route happens before the weird route has started, giving you a chance to find it yourself. What good is foreshadowing a part that you can't even take part in?
Ralsei is a ball of mystery but I'm sus of him.
Okay getting into how queen is a computer and Kris still could've made the fountain blah blah blah this reads like cope. Look into Last Thursday-ism, that'll explain how Sweet and Queen can have a relationship that lasts long enough for him to notice her behavior "changing" when their world is created on the same day.
@@souplife1 The thing is, the strange behavior from Kris happens again at the end of Chapter 2. There's a clear pattern being set up here. It shouldn't all be brushed off as a red herring. What I meant by Kris being the only one who has legitimate evidence for them being the Knight is that every other character people make Knight theories about is based entirely on circumstantial evidence, coincidences/over-analyzation, and/or just pointing out suspicions about them. Kris, being the only one who makes a fountain on screen, as well as the TV narration suggesting they knew how to do so prior to Queen's explanation, is the only character the game is actively associating with the Knight.
And no, I don't think it'd be silly for Toby to reveal the Knight this early. Twists don't have to be revealed towards the end. If it's beneficial to the story, they can be revealed near the beginning. The only reason we have such large lengths of time between chapters is because the game isn't finished yet. There's no reason to assume that Deltarune is meant to be experienced differently from any other game: played all at once. Someone playing the full game wouldn't have time to debate things like we're debating now. The only reason people are doubting Knight Kris is BECAUSE of these long gaps between chapters, which only exist due to the game being unfinished. If Kris really isn't the Knight, that will be confirmed in the future, given how obvious the reveal was at the end of Chapter 2.
Again, I provided my reasons as to why I believe Kris knew how to make fountains prior to Queen's explanation in the original comment, so I'm not gonna repeat myself. Even if I'm wrong in saying monsters can't make fountains, my point still stands about the setup & payoff of the Knight Kris reveal, especially since, like I said, it happens right after the player learns how the Knight makes fountains. Kris making a fountain on screen right after a bunch of Knight exposition should absolutely be taken as hard evidence for them being the Knight, despite many people refusing to do so.
People take Queen saying that any lightner can create a fountain the wrong way. That line isn't there to tell the player that the Knight could be anyone, it's to further explain why she's so bent on forcing Noelle to create a fountain.
I only argued that Kris could be mobile *enough* to open the Cyber World fountain. Where did you get the idea that I suggested they could be as mobile as an olympic runner?
My point is that there's no way to know HOW long they can survive without their soul, so this can't be used as definitive counterevidence.
Yeah, I acknowledged that it appears on both routes. I even gave it an explanation: it's a seemingly meaningless line in the normal route that suddenly gets re-contextualized in the weird route. Like, "Oh, I know what this means now." Like I already said, references to the weird route shouldn't be assumed to be completely banned from appearing in the normal route. The fact that it appears in the normal route could be explained by it foreshadowing a future event ("future" as in when the player is done with the normal route, and goes to play the weird route).
Last Thursday-ism is a good point, but I don't see how pointing out how Queen is a computer & how Kris still could've made the fountain reads like "cope," because those are both true. Queen saying "Today" is another reference to her computer-ness. There are many instances where the game reminds you that Queen is a computer with her references to computer-based things, so it's likely that this is another one of those instances.
I would also like to point out that Kris looks at the Camera when they pull the soul (Us) out in Ep. 1, Which mean they know We play them during the day. Which means Kris has to find ways to make what they do look like "Red Herrings" so you will continue to play them. They need the Power to save and reload to gain the recruits/or power your Soul gives when you seal the fountains they create. If you stop playing because you know how they are manipulating you, it is over.
I would like to present Queen's video of the Dark Fountain being made. Noelle and Berdly aren't in it even though the computer that is Queen was sitting right in front of them. And we see in the chapter 2 ending, the Dark smoke shoots straight up, and it takes a few minutes for the Smoke to fill the room. Which means Noelle and Berdly should be in the video.
Unless.... Noelle and Berdly weren't there when it happened. Queen wasn't in front of them because they weren't there yet. Which means it must have happened the Night before. (The reason this is case is because the Annoying Dog who causes the traffic jam rides into the Dark Fountain, which means it was created before the jam). The Knight opened the laptop, turned it on so Queen would be created, and then created the fountain, similar to the Knight plugging in the TV.
Kris is premediating the setup for the fountains. This would insure nobody could walk in on them , and would insure they could leave the room before the dark fountain areas get engulfed.
This also means is very likely the Knight was in the computer lab itself , not the closet. This is premeditated. No need to hide. After all, Noelle and Berdly aren't there.
Stories are by their nature, abstractions of reality but I think you're removing some important context here. The reason Queen was talking about the knight was because she wanted to create a new dark fountain. The Fun Gang defeat Queen but Noelle, Berdley and especially Susie reflect in earshot of Kris on how good things have come from the creation of the fountains. Ralsei stops them because he thinks it would bring the Roaring. So why can't people assume Kris could have created the chapter 3 fountain because of their experiences in Chapter 1 (Remember Susie only became Kris' friend after Chapter 1's events). We don't assume Berdley is the knight because he tried to create a dark fountain so why should we assume Kris is?
And well, unless Kris can predict the future, this possible motivation can't work with Kris being the knight as they would have no way of knowing how Susie, Noelle or Berdley would react to (or in chapter 2's case if they even knew who would end up inside) the fountain.
Also a more minor thing but a large person ≠ person . Unless Toby was implying Berdley is fat, there's no reason to word it this way if it's meant to imply Berdley being stuffed inside it. For instance Toby Fox could have worded it like this: "It's so big you feel you could close the door shut behind you and no one would know you were inside."
Not to mention that doesn't explain why it's big in the first place from a storytelling standpoint as Toby could have made the closet as big or as small as he liked. Giga Queen is a better explanation but raises a rather different question: If it was in the closet, where is it now?
Other than that though, you make some good points here. I had no idea that the fountain was corrupting the King and not the knight.
Great video and points! Just wanted to add that being asleep is probably a side effect of leaving a dark world because it closed and not a cause of noelle and birdly's study being boring. This is probably the case because it seems neither of them were asleep when they came into the dark world, and neither were asleep when the fountain was closing.
Well in chapter one kris and suzy are fully awake when the fountain closes, and suzy is awake under the weird route in chapter, so it’s not a proximity thing allowing them to stay awake the first time. So I think it’s more likely they were asleep, mostly on the basis of there being no reason for them to be where they are.
Another possibility - Ralsei put them to sleep with his magic before the Dark World finished closing. We already know that he has the power to do that, and to be honest, him doing that to cover up the whole incident is the best explanation we currently have. Every other explanation involves either assuming that Dark Worlds forming puts you to sleep (which is completely unsupported speculation) or else the bizarre idea that Noelle and Berdley decided to take a nap instead of studying like they were supposed to, which seems pretty out of character for both of them (especially since there aren't even any chairs on that side of the table, so they'd have to have decided to sleep standing up or slouching over for some reason).
24:50 love ur video, but this is kind of a dumb point. Queen could easily just assume from Kris's actions, and they don't HAVE to interact with her. she actually seems to be pretty confused on who the knight even is or what the knights motives themself is
gotta be one of if not my favorite delta theorist
i find it sorta nuts how you kinda just spawned in with amazing content. only 5 videos and they're bangers?? that's crazy, you're doing an amazing job
@12:05-. The thing is, this is only a plot hole if you assume that the way lightener placements in space when a dark world dissipates works in one specific way (in this case, presumably it being point of entry based), but I don't really see any reason why it needs to work like this at all. I actually looked up a long play of chapter 1 just to see what the scene after Kris and Susie sealing up the dark fountain was like again (because it's our only other reference point for how special precisioning after the erasure of a dark world works), it starts out in pitch black, and then after some funny noises and Susie telling Kris to knock it off, and then both characters are standing next to the light switch. It's possible that they started at the door to the closet (presumably the light world version of the great door, and that's their entry point), or the cabinet (presumably the object turned into dark castle) and then hugged the wall till they reached the light switch, but the funny noises and the dialogue seem to imply that Kris and Susie started at the center of the room, and then fumbled their way to whatever wall they could find, which just so happened to be the light switch wall. Point being, we don't know where the frick they were when the dark fountain was sealed.
So far, for as far as I can tell, the only evidence that the dark worlds work in a way that would make it impossible for Kris to be the Knight is the fact that Kris and Susie happened to be standing at the door to the computer room after sealing the dark fountain. The question is it "why are Noelle and Birdly sleeping at the desk when the dark world disappeared?", but "why we would expect anything else?". This is why, even when watching videos that fully convinced me Kris wasn't the night, I always felt like this was a weak piece of evidence, I just never got the impression that the disappearance of a dark world worked in a particular way, much less the specific way it would have to work to rule out the fountain being made at night.
I personally doubt we're going to get a consistent pattern as to where lighteners are put after the disappearance of a dark world, and if we do, it will be unintentional. Toby is not a big lore-lore guy (as evidenced by the unanswerable question that is Chara, and the existence of essence that is only there to explain Flawy), his expertise and interests are more in character writing and theme mastery.
The only answer i have right now as to "why Berdly and Noelle are "sleeping" while Kris and Susie are standing up in front of the door, is because K&S are fully aware of what the Dark Worlds are, while B&N think it's just a dream.
Therefore, if we go by the logic of the Dark Worlds reflecting the will/desires/thoughts ecc of the Lightners, since B&N believed to be asleep, when the Fountain was sealed they're bodies were put in that position, while K&S don't need any "adjustment" because they know the truth of the "adventure" they went through...
Perhaps my point is a bit confused but, essentially, Berdly and Noelle believed to be sleeping so that's how they found themselves once the Fountain was sealed. We still have no idea what exactly happens to the physical body of a Lightner when they enter a Dark World but it's clear that there is a clear separation between them (Susie eats constantly but is still hungry, the only kind of damage that afflicts them is "mental" since Berly can lose an arm with an explosion but in the real world it just gets stiff and paralized...) so, with that, we can deduce that whatever happens when the room is filled with darkness does not affect the real bodyes of those who enter it, but that darkness can move them howerer and wherever it needs to (see chapter one for example, from the closet to the unused class)
I always wonder why so many people try so hard to disprove it. Not like say that it's highly unlikely to happen but just IMPOSSIBLE.
Okay, tbh this video is nothing new.
Once again it mainly consists of reminding the most popluar interpretation of events so far and explaining why it does not fit "Kris is the Knight" theory.
That's not how disproving the theories works.
You can't use YOUR interpretation of events to say other theory sucks because it doesn't fit its timeline.
Similarly I can't use "Kris is the Knight" theory timeline to disprove anyone's theory.
To decide if some theory makes more sense than another you have to analyze it individually.
I must admit that you indeed tried to do it but instead of presenting both arguments and contradictions concerning both theories you gave your theory only arguments and "Kris Knight" theory only contradictions.
But okay let's talk about these arguments. I would like to mention that "Noelle and Berdly sleeping" is so outdated argument it's so interesting to see people use it in 2023. Can you explain why you make this "weird rule" that while leaving the dark world, certain person must go back to exact same position that they were in while entering it? There is nothing in the game proving it so far. Actually Kris and Susie stading at the desk after sealing the Dark Fountain is an argument disproving it (they should be right at the entrance to the computer lab).
But okay let's follow your way of thinking. If this "rule" was true why didn't Noelle and Berdly even start studying? Look at their books, they are closed and stacked on each other which means: 1) They entered the lab 2) They sat down 3) They decided to go sleep together in a public place in the middle of the day cuz why not. I really expect you to give any making sense explanation to that.
Okay, next point. I like how you say "Noelle would never go into a dark room, even Susie and Kris are scared to enter one". Oh yeah, and what can we see later in the game? Noelle walking alone through the dark alleys of the cyber city xD.
Come on
Let's go further.
Now this explanation with Knight escaping after we entered the Dark World. How did you come up with it? Did you even read Queen dialogues?
She directly says "I was just guessing based on Knight's actions". Game literally tells you there wasn't any interaction between Queen and The Knight. And yet you just calmly explain that the Knight told her what to do and escaped using some unknow method without closing the fountain. It's so great you gave that biggest contradition to "your timeline" less than 30 seconds of screentime.
Hmmm, what else....
Oh, the "Kris was watching TV and ate the pie" explanation is also great. I thought that the line saying "the TV doesn't seem to be plugged in anymore and it's dusty" clearly suggests that nobody has been using it for a long time. And yet after watching this video it turns out that for some reason after some unknown time Kris just decided to watch some TV in the night. It just sounds like a poor excuse for why they are so tired in the morning the next day. In my opinion this explanation makes as much sense as Kris going through the town to the Library and making there a fountain.
Summarizing it feels like you just increase the importance of your arguments and lower the importance of "Kris is Knight" theory arguments. Not to mention using interpretation of events to disprove another interpretation.
Love your videos so much
The pieces of evidence that I find most compelling for Kris being the knight are:
-Ralsei's existence.
Although not confirmed by any means, Kris is the most likely person to have created Ralsei. If true, then Kris is responsible for at least 2 of the (known) dark fountains in the story.
-The TV and Pie.
In between chapter 1 & 2, Kris plugged in the TV in the middle of the knight (lol), presumably just after removing the soul. He also ate toriel's pie. Both of these made creating the Dark fountain in chapter 2 easier. Because of this, the dark fountain at the house was probably planned out since at least the end of chapter one. Kris shouldn't have known how to create dark fountains until chapter 2 though. It is technically possible he planned it anyway and just got lucky, but that seems unlikely.
-The wording about the knight.
No one has ever been explicitly confirmed to have seen the knight. King might have, but he only said the knight created the fountain and the kings were imprisoned. You don't need to enter a fountain to create one, and the Kings weren't confirmed to have been imprisoned by the knight specifically. This means that no one recognizing Kris isn't an issue, because they haven't ever seen the knight in person. (Exept Queen, who only saw a hand and a knife.)
Granted, there are still problems with Kris being the knight, but not enough to rule him out IMO.
Your evidence is sound, except for one thing. Kris is really adverse to Ralsei. They dislike him heavily based on the tea. And also, considering that Ralsei is intentionally trying to get Kris to not worry about the nature of puppets, and the implications of what happens if their own strings break, I think Ralsei, while being made of the horns, only looks like Kris’s brother Asriel as some sort of guise, something to lure them into trusting him.
Kris is adverse to Ralsei , if They are the Knight, because Ralsei is a tool, literally. And Even though Ralsei is trying to please and comfort Kris , he isn't "real" and not Asriel, the person Kris actually wants to idolize them. Ralsei , to Kris, is a second rate clone, a mental imaginary friend, a sycophant doll, I theorize. It is basically Kris talking to themself with the face of Asriel, and that could be percieved as pathetic.
And therefore, to Kris, Ralsei liking him is shameful, I think, because Kris is putting words in his mouth. A puppet comforting another puppet.
Ralsei is Kris's walking, talking shame. Their brother, subservient. but also a version of themself. A version of Asriel projected that is submissive to Kris's whims.... will literally let Kris stand on him/them. oof.
I don't think Berdly and Noelle sitting down with their books far from the door necessarily proves that the Dark Fountain was made with them inside. After all, Kris and Susie manages to change rooms while in a Dark World in Chapter 1. Plus Noelle was at the beginning of Cyber World, which could mean she was near the door at the time. Also, Noelle and Berdly clearly haven't started studying yet : When the Dark Fountain is closed, their books are closed.
They changed rooms because they changed dark rooms and so were launched in like how they run into the chapter 2 one so they are collapsed a couple of feet inside. Are you telling me the dark fountain decided to plop them into their seats with their books nicely in a pile?
@@redbush5483 In my opinion, no. They did it themselves, like what happened in Chapter 1 with Kris and Susie. At the very least, Susie didn't know that there was a Dark World in the closet, her first instinct was assuming that the light was off. We were able to walk quite a lot inside the closet, before falling into the Dark World. My idea is : As long as the first one into a room with a Dark World doesn't know that there is a Dark World in there, it won't throw them directly into the Dark World. Susie was first in the closet, as she is in front of us when Kris enters the closet. And so, Kris and Susie had to "wait" until Susie realizes that something is wrong. Same goes with Noelle and Berdly. As they are the smartest in their class, they probably spend a lot of time in the computer lab studying and researching for their project. They just saw a dark room where the computer lab is, and they just followed their habits, and went to their usual spots and put down their books. Noelle then decided that turning the lights on could be useful, walked to where the light switch should be, and that's when they realised something is wrong, starting the process of entering the Dark World.
9:56 queen says she was jsut assuming based on the knight's actions, the only interaction the cyber world has with the knight is the video that queen took
ralsei is most likely meant to be the red horns, and every chapter he talks privately with that most likely means kris created ralsei, and that should mean that he created the dark fountain to give a place for ralsei to be and for other darkeners. they have a motivation to open a dark fountain, for now we know that the soul is the thing that could seal the dark fountain, and kris has it, that could mean that kris wants to open the fountains to eventually seal them. why would he do that? because the party levels up each time the fountain is sealed and he can recruit more darkeners. why does he need that? no one knows its to early to tell. also, if every lightener can potentially create a dark fountain, why wont there be more that 1 knight? kris was super tired in chapter 2 we know they slept all the school day. yeah they walk slowly without the soul but why would it make them unable to make the dark fountain? it actually makes more sense because of them spending the whole night walking to the library, opening the dark fountain and then returning home.
On an almost entirely unrelated note, I just had a thought about the computer lab closet. What if that's how Ralsei got to us in ch2? What if closets have special properties? This is probably nothing, but it's interesting to ponder.
its only chapter 2, theres not enough info to determine who the knight is yet. besides, theres far more interesting theories out there to examine
I would like to present Queen's video of the Dark Fountain being made. Noelle and Berdly aren't in it even though the computer that is Queen was sitting right in front of them. And we see in the chapter 2 ending, the Dark smoke shoots straight up, and it takes a few minutes for the Smoke to fill the room. Which means Noelle and Berdly should be in the video.
Unless.... Noelle and Berdly weren't there when it happened. Queen wasn't in front of them because they weren't there yet. Which means it must have happened the Night before. (The reason this is case is because the Annoying Dog who causes the traffic jam rides into the Dark Fountain, which means it was created before the jam). The Knight opened the laptop, turned it on so Queen would be created, and then created the fountain, similar to the Knight plugging in the TV.
Kris is premediating the setup for the fountains. This would insure nobody could walk in on them , and would insure they could leave the room before the dark fountain areas get engulfed.
This also means is very likely the Knight was in the computer lab itself , not the closet. This is premeditated. No need to hide. After all, Noelle and Berdly aren't there. But I think the closet space in the general route references the Queen's basement and Spamton NEO suit in the Darkness, as well as the roller coaster.
Toby once said that Chapter 3 is going to be different from the usual chapter formula, and my guess for that is because a different person created the fountain a.k.a Kris
Chairiel is the knight.
Chairiel is the only one called it alongside the knight (pretend vessel don’t exist)
It all makes sense now
Chairiel is the knight
To the question of "why Berdly and Noelle are "sleeping" while Kris and Susie are standing up in front of the door, i think the most simple answer is because K&S are fully aware of what the Dark Worlds are, while B&N think it's just a dream.
Therefore, if we go by the logic of the Dark Worlds reflecting the will/desires/thoughts ecc of the Lightners, since B&N believed to be asleep, when the Fountain was sealed they're bodies were put in that position, while K&S don't need any "adjustment" because they know the truth of the "adventure" they went through...
Perhaps my point is a bit confused but, essentially, Berdly and Noelle believed to be sleeping so that's how they found themselves once the Fountain was sealed. We still have no idea what exactly happens to the physical body of a Lightner when they enter a Dark World but it's clear that there is a clear separation between them (Susie eats constantly but is still hungry, the only kind of damage that afflicts them is "mental" since Berly can lose an arm with an explosion but in the real world it just gets stiff and paralized...) so, with that, we can deduce that whatever happens when the room is filled with darkness does not affect the real bodyes of those who enter it, but that darkness can move them howerer and wherever it needs to (see chapter one for example, from the closet to the unused class)
Best lawyer ever
Great video! I adore your editing style and attention to detail~
okay i have no idea how NOBODY understands this
the closet in the computer lab is referencing Queen’s Mansion, a “large person” referenced being the Giga Queen statue
i don’t get how this is so obvious to me yet the instant assumption is “the knight was in there”
i mean sure, they COULD have been but clearly with that dialogue, it’s the same situation as the drawer in the unused classroom having cards spilling out, since that’s representative of all the people in the King’s Castle
the closet is most likely the cyber city where the huge queen robot and your huge robot have fought each other. and when i first saw it i fought the line was referring to hiding berdly's body .
literally anyone could be the knight
ever since chapter 2 its revealed to us and the crew any lightner could bring their own foutain into fruition, and kris literally takes that idea and starts chapter 3 because they want to spend more time in the dark world with susie
well- i think thats how its interpreted anyway
Whats strange tho is that they do it in a snowgrave run
I feel like the whole situation with Kris is much simpler than it is made out to be. Ultimately there are two possibilities that make the most sense to me, and they are as follows:
One - Kris is literally just a lonely kid that found out there is a magical realm that, as far as they know, only themselves and a few other select people seem to know about. In said realm they can go on adventures with their friends and other fun things, even though it is rather dangerous. Its a secret and special place just for them and their friends. Before the second Dark Fountain it was anyone's guess if what they and Susie went through was even real, but now Kris has learned something very important: You can just straight up make these things.
Think about the possibilities if you were in their shoes. Unlimited adventures and fun as long as you just shut the Fountain when you are ready to wrap up so that way you don't trigger the Roaring. Kris in this scenario is just a lonely kid that now stumbled upon the ultimate toy and this also ties in nicely with the theme of escapism that has been simmering in the background with DR for a bit now. Kris can use the Dark World to effectively never have to deal with reality again, in a very grim sense.
And then the Second option, although part of this can also tie in with the first: Kris learned from Spamton there just might be a way in the Dark Worlds to rid themselves of their own "strings" holding them back. Spamton may have failed, but there is a slim chance that Kris can regain control away from us/the soul potentially, and the key to it may involve something in the Dark Worlds. This ultimately assumes Kris does not like the soul/us, which based on how they seem to act when they want us out for a bit may be the case, but either way the possibility remains. There are all sorts of strange beings, powers, and objects in Dark Worlds, and who knows what could be done with them. For Kris, the possibilities are now theoretically endless, all they need to do is play their metaphorical cards right and explore the mysteries of the Dark Worlds as long as they can and eventually they might find a way to cut their strings, but this time without the catastrophic consequences Spamton faced.
Anyway, thats my thoughts on the matter. Neither idea are entirely mutually exclusive however as Kris could theoretically desire both of these things, but I feel these make more sense than Kris being the Knight.
god, after a long fuckin day a TheSoph video is just what I need. I typically don't watch random youtubers I find, especially if they have one good video and not much else, but I have faith in you. Good content with solid editing, what more is there to ask? Long in the short of it, this is what I needed, thanks.
One of the biggest things in my opinion, is that Ralsei didn’t detect the new dark fountain until Kris and Susie were already there. It is plausible to believe that Ralsei can detect new fountains, and he probably would warn the rest of the gang as soon as he detects one. If Kris somehow had created the fountain last night, Ralsei would warn the gang first thing after class
Unless Ralsei was created by the Knight, who is Kris, and therefore, is covering for them.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Yes, but that sounds like confirmation bias more than anything else, tbh
Remember Ralsei talks to Kris when we aren't watching with his "So that why" speeches that he specifically directs our attention away from.@@TheSoulCalledZuzia
Also, Remember in the Snowgrave route Ralsei's "But wait... We were supposed to-!!!!". We, the Player, don't engage with the party enough to draw our attention from Kris outside Noelle room, and it is implied Ralsei "was supposed to-" do this. But Susie moves through her stuff too fast too.
So, Ralsei cannot go "think about Susie" to move the Scene and Our perspective like he was apparently supposed to. Because Susie is already right next Kris.
And If Kris created Ralsei and he is in on the plan, Ralsei would be talking to Kris to confirm parts of the Plan, but We, using Kris as Vessel, deflect their script.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 There are two problems with those two arguments:
1. The "so that's why" part. This theory bases on the assumption that Kris created Ralsei. So that would make Kris the mastermind and the one who knows the entire plan. So shouldn't Kris be the one who explains the plan, instead of Ralsei?
2. Actually, you can skip the entire "thinking about what Susie is doing" part in the normal route as well. You just need to choose the option that you don't care and then second one that says that you really don't care or something like this and that will skip the entire scene. If Kris and Ralsei were supposed to do something in that scene, shouldn't Ralsei react the same way in that scene, too? But instead, he brushes it off. I agree, he really wanted the player to go away in that moment, but still - if anyone's a mastermind here it's not Kris, but Ralsei.
Why was kris in the closet? -the soph 2023
Kris doesn't move *that* slowly without the Soul. They're able to get out of the window, slash the tires on Tori's car, and jump back through the window in a little over a minute. That's not fast, but it's not super slow either. I can absolutely believe that Kris is able to make it to the Library and back over the course of a night, even in this state. Hometown is a tiny rural town with no crime, plus the Library has almost nothing of value except the Laptop (all the computers are ancient), so it's quite probable that they don't bother to lock the Library at night (as a matter of fact, not locking the door at night isn't that rare in peaceful rural areas even in real life, it was common in much of the USA before the 70s). If that's true, Kris wouldn't need to break in at all, so there'd be no need to hide evidence of a break-in. Kris is also REALLY tired the next day (Alphys says they slept through the entire schoolday instead of just the start of it as usual).
I also believe that Kris acts more inebriated around the SOUL specifically because they want US to believe they are weak without us.
3:47 why is the knight called the roaring knight like did they say yes this will be my epithet or is that what others call them. perhaps they assume or at least ralsei assumes that is the knight's motive. similar to voldemort being called the one that shall not be named. I don't think voldemort ever chose to be called that it's just what others called him.
we dont really know where lighteners need to wake up after the dark fountain is sealed. in chapter 1 kris and susie woke up in the middle of the card dark world room and in chapter 2 they woke up at the start of the room despite both places not being close to where the dark fountain appeared.
Kris is not the knight. Kris is the danger. They are the one who knocks.
I think if Kris has to be the Knight, they would at least be *a* Knight. There’s four Knights in Chess of course.
24:03 yes but spamton comes to them AFTER they rebel and it seems to have been a while (and since spamton literally lives in a trash can i assume it would take a while for the news to reach him)
Plotholes are the literary equivalent of dividing by zero.
Not sure what you mean
Kris is not the knight. Kris is *a* knight; the chessboard has more than one
OMFG I thought the knocking at the beginning was happening in real life and had to check if someone was knocking at my window
I still strongly believe that Kris Knight is a big possibility. I'm not 100% Kris Knight convinced; I have my own other theories about who the knight could be, but I don't think that Kris can or should be written off as a possibility. I don't think that the fountain creation timeline disporves the Kris knight theory as much as you claim. Kris creating the dark fountain the night before does not need a plot hole to be plausible. When Susie and Kris enter the closet dark fountain for the first time, there is an invisible floor that they stand on before eventually falling down into the section before castle town. We never see this dark fountain, or any dark fountain entrances act like this again. This to me shows that the properties of dark fountains are not 100% consistent. Not because the entrance of the first dark fountain is a plot hole, but because Toby intended for them to be this way. This beginning section creates tension and leads the story to where it needs to go, which could be the same reason that Berdly and Noelle's books were already on the table. There could have been a dark version of the room that Noelle and Berdly entered and set their stuff on before the floor collapsed and they fell into the dark world, just like Kris and Susie in the first chapter. Or, Toby could have put their books on the table because he needed them to believe that they were both dreaming for the plot to move along smoothly, and it wouldn't be a plot hole because the nature of dark fountains are not completely set in stone. They reflect the will of their creator, so Kris could just not want Noelle and Berdly to know about the dark fountains, so when the dark fountain spit them back out, it could have put them into a situation so that it's believable that they're both dreaming. It's possible to move your position in the light world while moving in the dark world. Kris and Susie move from castle town to the card kingdom completely in the dark world. They enter the closet and wake up in the classroom. I personally think it's more of a stretch to say that Noelle and Berdly both fell asleep in the short amount of time that it takes for Kris and Susie to make it to the library, and were both in a deep enough slumber not to notice a magical fountain being created meters away from them. This would also imply that they entered the fountain at the same time as the Knight. Would the Knight have time to form an entire relationship with the dark world's characters before Queen notices that a sleeping Noelle and Berdly are also there? And Berdly and Noelle aren't woken up by being transferred into the dark world (this could happen, I guess we'll see in chapter 3) ? Also, the Ralsei stuff is inconsistant. He is a liar actress, we know this. He could be lying about everything. The reason he meets them in the computer lab dark world only after they arrive could be because he didn't care until Kris was there. We don't know anything about that sketchy mf yet, so his actions can never really be used as proof, becuase we don't know his real motivations. I think that Knight Kris is a very plausible possibility, and shouldn't be completely written off on minor logical and consistency based defenses in a game with a plot that relies on a magic system that we really do not know much about yet, and most of what we do know about it is from a very untrustworthy character. But, again, I don't even one hundred percent believe in Kris Knight, I just think it's a really interesting theory that shouldn't be written off. This comment ended up being extremely long, I promise I'm not actually this defensive about this theory, I am just very passionate about Deltarune. I hope that none of this came off harshly, I think that a lot of what you presented should defiently be considered when deciding what theory to believe. I really enjoy your videos, and I believe in some of the other theores you have made on your channel, I just think you're wrong about this one.
Rouxls kaard has the most evidence towards being the knight
@@JeffTheBagelTRUE
Theres one theory I've heard that I think works best. "The Knight" isnt a person, its a title. Kris is one of the Knights, but maybe not the same Knight who created the Library. It would also just be a really cool twist
I totally agree 👍 I think out of all the theories the two knight theory makes the most sense.
Everyone tries to use evidence like Tony's planner intro scene against that, but the intro scene isn't even canon so it's weak evidence and it would still make a great twist by subverting a falsified expectation.
@@sahasrak6834I like the 7 knight theory
Ага, да, Крис не рыцарь, а Антон Чигур никого не убивал
Hey, what was that song playing at ~10:00? It sounds like either Celeste or Epic Battle Fantasy, but because of how faint it is I can't tell which.
I find the argument about Berdly and Noelle sleeping at the table meaning they were there when the fountain opened very unconvincing. In chapter 1, Kris and Susie emerged in an entirely different room when the fountain was closed
Added to that, Queen's recording of the Fountain opening (presumably taken with her real-world laptop camera) doesn't show Noelle or Berdley in the picture, even though the Laptop that becomes Queen is sitting directly across from where they wake up. If they were there when it was created, it would've been caught on camera.
In chapter 1, Kris and Susie went through the door connecting to the storage room into the unused classroom. Both rooms had a Dark Fountain.
@@skeletorthebest7204 This is true but it still means movement within the dark world can translate to movement outside the dark world in some way
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand yes but why would they be sitting and asleep? i know this are details that don't really matter since there are more important arguments but if we were to consider them being asleep makes more sense if the knight created the fountain when they were inside
@@OverdadeiroIkarus three possibilities:
1.) Dark Fountains reflect the will of their creator, the Knight wanted Noelle and Berdly to think this was a dream to not put more pressure on them.
2.) A brief lapse in consciousness is normal for coming out of dark worlds for the first time in general, we wouldn't be able to observe Kris and Susie being asleep first coming out of the Card Kingdom since our PoV was asleep at the time.
3.) We don't fully understand dark worlds and their rules yet and likely never will, Toby just wanted them to be asleep and believe it was a dream because that works better for the story he's trying to tell.
He probably isn't but it would be funny to see everyone reaction if Kris actually were the Knight
although i think the we can complete the game in under 30 min thing is just a gameplay thing i do think time works diffrently. since in cp 2 Ralsei says it feelt like he waited for eges or something, he justifies it as wanting to hang out with his friesnds but i think it implyes that time works diffrently in the d and l world. aslo, i think the d worlds existed before just a gateway oppned with the knight oppening it
I think that was a joke because chapter 1 and chapter two were released years apart from each other
*Slamming head against desk*
Prepare yourself for a comment chain!
0:53 This is a NONSENSE argument, first of all believing that Kris is the Knight doesn't automatically mean they have to have made that one particular dark fountain at some point in the past. What it might mean is that there needs to be the SECOND dark fountain in the unused classroom but considering that it isn't even **necessary** for the Kris Knight theory to work then there's not a whole lot of point bringing it up and acting like everyone who believes this theory has to subscribe to this idea, This is a borderline strawman argument.
2:19 I'm sorry, wasn't the whole point of Spookydoods original video to show how this is flawed thinking? Yes it doesn't DIRECTLY prove that Kris is the Knight but the fact that any lightner can do it isn't evidence either way. It doesn't prove or disprove Kris is the Knight, but seeing as they're *literally the only character we see doing it on screen* it's like at what point do you apply occam's razor!?
2:33 WHY DOES KRIS NEED TO OPEN EVERY DARK FOUNTAIN TO BE THE KNIGHT? *WHY?!* You can't just launch into an assumption like that and present it as a fact. Why don't you try laying out a case as to why this needs to be when if you'd like to join us in *reality* the only thing that Kris needs to do to be the Knight is literally just open new fountains in spite of the potential danger and for some purpose, whether we know it or don't know it.
3:50 Uuuuh, no. You literally said yourself that the Knight is mysterious and they have been called the roaring knight ONCE, they we're referred to as the roaring knight once and we literally learn later that the Queen doesn't know about the roaring or what opening new dark fountains causes, it was an assumption on her part so you can't even say that the Knight's goal is the roaring which basically demolishes the following point about Kris wanting to cause the roaring. Goofy, goofy argument.
5:13 YES, Yes it is possible! This is the same old tired argument "lOoK hOW sLowLY ThEy wAlK!!!!111" first of all they walk around like that at the end of chapter 1 before they rip the soul out of their body so it's not them "walking around without their soul", *debunked.* Second of all "every movement *seems* painful and arduous" The entire premise of this argument is literally based on conjecture, that is literally what this is. You THINK it seems painful and arduous but like okay, I don't think it seems painful and arduous... where's your argument now? And even if it is *PROVE* this point! Don't just sit there and say it is and then expect us to believe it! that's not how you construct an argument. It especially doesn't seem to limit their movement at all and how do I know this? Because we literally see them, climb out a window then run around the front of their house and slash their own mother's tyres, climb back through the same window and later we see them leap into the air to stab at the floor. This entire thing is completely arbitrary, You're basically saying "oh well they couldn't walk all the way to the library break in and open a fountain why *that'd be impossible!* oh but of course they can break out of their own home, move around it, sabotage a vehicle and then jump back through the same window, that's perfectly reasonable!"
5:36 Okay Reverse time! "If you believe that Kris *isn't* the Knight then you believe that whoever did open the fountain hid in the library closet (at random?) waited until someobody came in (aren't they lucky Berdly and Noelle were there) opened a fountain (again why? Just to fuck with these two teenagers they didn't know would be here?) then immediatley break out, without being seen by either Berdly or Noelle or any of the cars outside *or Undyne* and *all within the span of a few minutes!* Now please, which of these two scenarios seems less ridiculous to you? Before you ask I haven't seen your other video on the Knight, but honestly if it's only reason for existing is to justify this I kind of don't want to.
5:58 Gee do you think that could be the reason why? Like it was written into the story or something?
6:19 Did you just miss the entire point of Spookydood's video? You're acting as if this happening where Noelle and Berdly walking into what *to them* seems like just a dark room is illogical or strange while showing us an example of Kris and Susie *doing literally the exact same thing in chapter 1.* Or maybe they just appeared in those seats because Toby needs a way for them to believe that it was all just a dream, you know, like what the video you're responding to said! What is it about people who theorise that Kris is not the Knight need these hard and fast things to be explained. Like we *have* to explain why Berdly and Noelle are sitting in their seats when the fountain is gone but when it's your turn you don't have to explain anything, you can just vaguely gesture at concepts or reasons as to why Kris *might* open a fountain or why the Knight *might* want to trap Noelle and Berdly in a dark world without having to explain ANY of it and yet in both of these cases they require much fucking better explanations than a justification for why Noelle and Berdly were sitting in those seats when the fountain disappeared.
7:30 YES IT'S UNCLEAR HOW THEY WORK SO THEN WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU SAY THAT THE SCENARIO OF BERDLY AND NOELLE WALKING IN IS IMPOSSIBLE? YOU HAVEN'T MADE AN ARGUMENT AS TO WHY THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE AND THEN YOU LITERALLY ADMIT HOW IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE, *YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF*
7:48 You're right maybe it's not in character for Noelle to walk into a strange dark room, but you know what is in character for her? *To be pushed around and take orders from someone with more confidence and self assuredness,* like oh, I don't know *Berdly might have in this situation.*
8:20 Your evidence for this "heavy implication" that the Library fountain was made in one day is literally one line in the entire game that you can maybe interpret in this one particular way. But again seeing as you haven't given any evidence for us to agree with this interpretation I once again have to say that this is a nonsensical argument.
8:23 HOW *HOW!? IS THAT CLEARLY THE IMPLICATION?* You're setting up another false dilemma argument here by saying that because we *have* to interpret this line of dialogue as being a reference to the Knight then that means Kris *has* to have hid in the closet at night which you then proceed to tear down as an indefensible argument when this is not what people who think Kris is the Knight even believe because it's obviously ridiculous. So this point didn't destroy jack, this is an abyssmal argument.
9:10 It's only Impossible because the entire crux of your argument here that the line about somebody being able to hide in the closet means what you personally think it means is absolutely definitely what it means. If I come along and say "No that line doesn't mean that the Knight had to hide in the closet" your argument COMPLETELY falls apart and Like I said before, you haven't given us a reason to agree with you that this means the knight hid in the closet. All you've done is say "This X text obviously means Y" without backing a single piece of it up.
10:14 Oh you wanna talk about out of character moments? *How about saying that Berdly and Noelle would just fall asleep in the middle of studying?*
12:11 *It's not a plothole. It's only a plothole if you think that that one line of flavour text means what you think it means. It's interpretation, it's affirming the consequent*
14:04 perfectionist fallacy
14:50 Oh I don't know, perhaps because the Knights goals are mysterious and unknown so they might have a reason beyond our comprehension! *Just throwing it out there!*
17:51 Uh no, no this scenario you're making up is out of character and therefore couldn't happen. Like this is the exact same logic you used earlier, do you see how you're holding Kris Knight theory to a double standard?
19:16 Hmm yes, we can't assume that the way characters experience time is the way we experience time in Deltarune... but now that I think about it, if that's the case don't you think that makes it slightly more possible for Kris to, oh I don't know... *run all the way to the library and open a fountain in one night?* Like you just ruined your own argument for us seeing them walking slowly from earlier, *you contradicted yourself yet again.*
22:22 *The Knight did not manipulate Queen,* nothing about the character dialogue implies that. All the Knight did was show up, open the fountain then Queen just took that concept and ran with it, again admitting that what she thought the Knight wanted was an assumption on her part.
23:02 Do you know what TODAY means? Like do you understand how a calendar works? After 12:00 pm midnight it rolls over to the next DAY, Yeah I know we still technically call that "night" but night is nebulous and only refers to the period of time when it's dark, when most people are sleeping. You might argue it's strange for a character to refer to say 1 in the morning as during the day but it might make just a tad more sense if that character was a literal computer who works on an internal clock.
26:07 Yeah and basing your entire understanding of the plot one one single interpretation of a line of text, thus making any deviation from it a "PlOt HoLE!!!!!11" isn't a good basis to base a theory on either which also by the way makes your entire argument based off an assumption, exactly the same thing you tried to call people out for. Good job.
Hey your point hear that why would they wait in the closet she literally states are in the video. You can’t blame her for doing something then directly do it yourself.
@@Gusthebusisreal Yes I can. Because if she can so can I, also it doesn't refute any of my other points
I made a comment on reddit that I feel would fit here as to why I think Kris may not be the Knight, so I'll just copy it here.
*inhales*
There isn't enough evidence to concretely prove anyone is the Knight right now, first of all.
Secondly, the Knight is narratively tied to the Roaring (they are referred to as "The Roaring Knight") which we can assume means that they seek to cause it, which opens a massive can of worms.
Assuming Kris is the Knight, WHY would they want the Roaring? Their personality shows that at worst they are mischievous and play some mean-spirited pranks on Noelle, but they aren't outright malicious and destructive. Secondly, how do they know all this? How did they learn how to make fountains prior to Deltarune's events? There's no way they could have unless they've had prior experience with Dark Worlds, which they MIGHT have. Kris also willingly seals the fountains, as this is an action they do without our input, even when alone (during the Weird Route no one is with them when sealing it, suggesting that they aren't doing it to maintain appearances).
During Chapter 1, when they first see the entrance to the Dark World, Kris seems terrified of it, able to wrestle enough control from the Player to back off from it. If they were The Knight, why were they scared? The Knight, from what we know of them, seems to be incredibly powerful, seemingly upending the Kingdom with its mere presence. Kris' stats aren't all that impressive, which is another reason why I'd say they can't be the Knight (I'd argue they're weaker without their Soul too, which is why they need it/why they move so slow without it).
Another reason is that the Knight can seemingly leave Dark Worlds without sealing the Fountains (we know they were briefly in the Chapter 1 Dark World as Seam mentions seeing a "strange knight"). Kris can't do this, and if they could they would have obviously told Susie (we can't control the specifics of what they say, so it is still possible that they could have let something slip to her). I say this because Kris obviously cares about Susie, even in Chapter 1 when they are supposed to be enemies.
Also, if you want to argue about it playing into the narrative theme of control, there is the counter-argument that other candidates can also fulfill this. Dess for example, and her controlling Mother, which would also force Kris to confront an obviously painful past of theirs (the Bunker maybe? Dess' disappearance too). We know Dess is similar to Susie, so she'd be a nice foil character too. Another potential candidate I quite like is another human, as it could be a great way to play into Kris' misanthropy and help them overcome it by letting them choose to spare The Knight themself (maybe even link them to Gaster/give them similar feelings about a loss of control in their life?).
While Kris can be considered a candidate, there are other things about them being the Knight that simply don't add up. There are other people who can fulfill the role of the Knight in a more satisfying way, and who are suspicious in their own right, but I don't think we should box ourselves in to the idea that the Knight HAS to be someone we know from Hometown so far. Discussing new ideas is always a good thing, in my book.
Kris knight deniers when you ask them why Noelle and Berdley didn’t run out of the room when "The knight" jumped out of da closet and made a dark fountain and also they never mention seeing that happen or anything.
Your video is fundamentally flawed from the outset to me.
In a murder mystery, for sure, means motive and opportunity are the important things to prove.
Deltarune is not a murder mystery. It is a meta narrative exploring the nature of play, fiction and reality itself.
Who the Knight is has literally nothing to do with the fundamental facts of opportunity and motive; we have literally enough evidence to claim anyone in the Light world could be the Knight, and even some evidence it could be a Darkner or two.
The important quest is: What does that person being the Knight say about the story? What are the themes and ideas at play? What is... the point?
Kris being the Knight has all kinds of interesting implications about the narrative at large. After that, we quickly get into characters that offer no real benefit to the story by being the knight.
Since dark worlds seem to represent escapist fantasies, the knight would have to be someone with a crappy enough life that they’d want to create those worlds. Kris kinda fits the bill, but I could see Alphys being the knight too (and she did messed up stuff in Undertale too).
@@loziclec.1295 Certainly this argument is better than one in the video. And Alphys is a continued presence in the game so there's at least an element of setup-payoff to it
This argument ignores the plotholes that are mentioned in the video, as if plotholes are not important for a meta narrative (spoilers: plotholes are the most negatively impacting elements of a meta-narrative). It doesn't need to not be a murder mystery, we have to ask if Toby Fox would glaze over to big issues like those presented in the video, just to present Kris as the knight, and the answer is NO.
@@juasjuasi4750 The plot holes I often see brought up are things like "The timeline of the day doesn't make sense!"
That's not a plot hole. I would put those things as "marginalia". A plot hole is something like a character not making an obvious choice that they should to extend the plot, or a character being irrelevant to the plot despite being presented as central.
@@Asocialite__ No, you are just changing the definition of the freaking word. A plothole is an element in the story that either A: violates the rules of the established narrative or B: violates basic rules of logic that any good story should have.
An example of a plothole for the kris knight theory in this case is the fact that Noelle and berdly are sitting in the table *with their books already displayed in it * as if *they were already sitting down preparing to study before the dark fountain was there*
This particular example is nasty, you have the game telling you a chain of events that actively contradict the theory, like there is no reason for Noelle and Berdly to sit in a pitch dark room, so they sat down in the lab before the fountain was there, but the theory requires for the fountain to be there all morning (B),
and what we saw on the fist dark fountain, you wake up on the floor depending on the location you released the dark fountain, AFAIK, kris and susie woke up right where they jumped into the computer lab, why isn't the same thing for Noelle and Berdly? (A)
Accepting the Kris Knight Theory either has no basis in actual logic and is all emotional, or you don't think Toby Fox is a good writer.
its always great when TheSoph™ drops a video
Just subscribed yesterday and I already got a new video!
YES!! YEEEEES!!! FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS IT, THANKS FOR THE FOOD!
you can hold X + C to skip through dialogue a lot faster,
in chapter 1 you had to get an item but its a default thing in 2
I like the idea of Kris being the Knight and we're working to undo what they've done while at the same time wondering if what we're doing, controlling Kris, is alright. Even though they're likely not the Knight this theme will be explored in Chapter 3 as Kris, for sure, did create this dark fountain and we're going to close it.
6:37 how exactly would they look for a light switch on the outside of a room? Not to mention when the the chapter one dark fountain was closed, Susie and kris are not even in the same room, your assumption that they go back to where they where when the fountain was opened is plainly false.
Also, if Kris was the Knight, and Queen interacted with The Knight, wouldn't Queen have recognized Kris as The Knight?
For the first part of the video, I was like: "why doesn't she sound like a girl anymore", until it said Spookydood haha
I was genuinely so confused
Finally. Better Call Soph.
I am still on the camp that the Knight isn't a character we've met yet, and the revela wilk be that.. its nobody we recognize
Or, alternatively, it's going to be a situation where the characters have no clue who it is, but WE, Undertale players, do, but itd have to be hard to pull off given Knight theories have proposed about everyone as the Knight
Yeah the library fountain being made by Kris has always been a pretty big narrative reach not only because Noelle going into a ominous pitch dark room seems oddly out off character for her (I mean maybe Berdly rushed in there or something and she wanted to save him but I assume she would have gone and looked for help rather than rushing in herself) but also there's really no motivation for Kris to do this given the risks involved. Like unless the theory some people have that Deltarune is taking place in a time loop is true there's absolutely no way Kris could have reasoned there would be:
a) No one walking around at night that would have stopped them.
b) No night owls that would have spotted them shuffling down the street from their home and thus would have walked outside to see what's up (I mean Kris IS a teenager so they shouldn't be walking around at like 3am on a school night...).
c) No random citizens that would have entered he computer lab in the library and thus fallen into the Dark World (something Kris would know could get them seriously injured or killed).
I know Toby Fox isn't a god or anything and thus not immune to bad writing but I just can't see him inserting this ridiculous Batman's gambit moment into the plot given how trope savvy his work typically seems to be.
Noelle is enough of a doormat to go along with anything that another person suggests with a reasonable amount of force, no matter how much she dislikes it, so I can absolutely see her following Berdley inside a dark room. I also don't think Kris' getting to the Library at night is all that hard to believe - Hometown is a tiny rural town, it's very likely everyone would be in bed by that time, unlike what happens in big cities. Even if they did see, the odds that they would actively go and stop Kris are far from certain (Kris is well known as the resident Weird Kid, after all). It's also not that hard to believe that nobody would go into the Computer Lab in the course of a day - the Internet is down across town, so there's little reason to go there at all. Besides, even if someone did - so what? We don't know what Kris' motivation is, and while it's probably not to cause the Roaring (since they could've done that easily by this point if that was their real goal), it's at least important enough to be worth killing Berdley (since his death doesn't dissuade them from continuing to make Fountains). It's possible that Kris is willing to risk hurting or killing other people for their Big Goal, even if they don't actively desire that to happen.
berdly will probably convince nowell that the lights are of and they should turn on the switch thats in character of him. yeah i dont have an argument against the books but i still think it the chapter one end cutscene was pointless without them opening a fountain. what did they do after that cutscene?
The library dark fountain is so heavily debated. It makes me wonder how thorough Toby fox really was with that whole situation. This is gonna be long, but was it really a giga brain setup by Toby? To make you think it was made while Noelle and Birdly was present. Or did he really actually intend it to be open before the two even show up. And they do somehow not question it and jump in. It could happen. I mean. Kris and Suzy did. But then why are they all at the desk nice and tidy? It feels like either way is a little convoluted to me. I do lean towards the knight making it while they were there. But even that still isn’t perfect. Do they really not hear the loud fountain opening sound? And not run from the darkness approaching? It’s not immediate, at the house Kris had time to slowly sit down and put the heart in before the room fills up. Nothing really fits perfectly.
Yeah I think some people are missing that the scene with us all waking up had to have 4 people framed in it somehow. The easiest way to do that is to have them all seated around a table obviously, it'd be awkward to fit 4 people all in a line.
15:25
I could easily see it just being people reading too far into things, spurred on by us not having the full story yet and it being intended to be answered in the immediate next chapters during normal gameplay (which is still an important consideration for Toby, the game WILL be finished one day, so it'll need to make sense without 2-3 year gaps between chapters too). I feel it's like Kris happening to have red eyes and "TOTALLY BEING CHARA OMG GUYS!!!!" when its shown that's just a normal physical trait about them by their dark-world entering animation.
I really think people are giving way more thpugh to the scene than toby fox ever gave it
@@anyoneatall3488 yeah I pretty much agree.
There is something to consider tho. I think the reason why everybody woke up at the desk is because they travelled over there, just like they did in the unused classroom (they traversed through it), but your in-character point very much stands. I don't think Noelle or Birdley actually mentioned a dark room after having woken up, but I suppose all we can do is wait and see how that progresses. What I find weird is that they both just agreed to it having been a dream as if you wake up every day and agree on having shared a dream with your friend? Strange reaction, but maybe written to just finish the chapter asap or to not make any of them question it too much.
Also, it would make sense narratively that Kris *isn't* the Knight, just like how they look a little like Chara but are not Chara (probably), how they pulled out the knife at the end of the first chapter, then proceeded to eat pie. It's very possible that it's just a red herring on purpose and we *should* be skeptical of it.
But on the other hand, I am fully expecting Kris to have some ulterior motive by the end of the game. I want them to do something wild, they deserve it.
OH BTW Kris Knight this, Kris not Knight that- here's a very important question that I don't see being asked: we know that Susie and Kris can leave the Castle Town world whenever they want. If the Knight who is not Kris was involved here, which seems to be the case, and they left the Cyberworld while the Dark Fountain was still active, why the HELL did Ralsei tell Kris and Susie that they would not be able to go home without closing said fountain.
* grabs Ralsei by his femboy shoulders and shakes him really hard * WHAT ARE YOU HIDING, GOAT BOY.
Additional point: it's completely irrelevant when a Dark Fountain was made, at least from what we can see, when it comes to determining how much time had passed in the Light World vs the Dark World. The Dark World exists as an entity almost detached from the Light World's timeline, except not. While the Lightners are interacting with the Dark World, there is a passage of time, but during creation, the Darkners and their world receive history from both their Light World counterparts (objects and how they interact with each other) as well as the roleplaying lore. If you created a loreplaying idea right now in a half an hour, bam, you could have created 5 billion years of history. That's why I really don't think that the whole creation timestamp in the Light World actually matters. Darkners have history within the "essence" of their characters as objects in the Light World, but they also have history that does not have to physically exist in the Light World. This is where the "fantasy vs. real life" parallel comes from - Dark World is fantasy which encapulates roleplay, imagination, dreams and escapism, Light World is the realness and the hope, even though both worlds are fiction, and the same can be applied to the reality we exist in in which we are analysing this piece of fiction, but that's a whooooole other can of worms that I have no desire to open and elaborate :) unless you ask.
So yeah, the history within the Dark World does not have to have a specific passage of time applied to it so if the Dark Fountain was created 7 seconds ago, the world could still have centuries or millennia of history. Reason? It's its LORE.
Or at least that's what I think, we'll just have to wait and see :P
@@godslaughter On the lore, I just assume that while a dark fountain is not open the darkners still live their lives in the dark world. Its just that us lightners do not have any way to interact with them as people instead only seeing them as what they represent in the light world. So they will have history for as long as their light world representation has existed in that space. I do believe Queen says the dark fountain was opened today, to her tho being a computer that would just mean any time from 12am to when she says it.
Regarding how Frisk leaves The Underground during the Neutral endings. I'm rertain I've seen a screenshot of an EMail of that exact question which Toby answered back in 2015/2016. Apparently, the six human souls allowed Frisk to leave The Underground.
Sadly, I haven't been able to find this screenshot again. I've looked for it a few times already over the years.
I disagree that the Knight's motivation is to cause the Roaring - if that is the case, then they're stunningly incompetent at their job, since they could easily have just opened a large number of Fountains, or jumped into any of the other Dark Worlds and created another Fountain within them. If the Knight wanted to cause the Roaring, they would've done it by now. The title of "Roaring Knight" is something given to them by Queen, someone who explicitly states that she never actually met them and was just basing her plan on assumptions she made about their motivations. Queen also didn't even know about the Roaring when she said that line, so it's even less likely that this is evidence of the Knight's motivation. I'm guessing that Queen is basing that name off of what she heard when the Dark Fountain was opened in the library (remember, she's a Laptop, and recorded the Fountain's opening on her in-built webcam - she could have also captured the probably-very-loud opening process with an in-built microphone as well).
I believe The Knight/Kris is creating something for Asriel based on their web searches. And they are also creating "video games" to make new friends. I think Kris wants to show Asriel something. And they are experimenting to create the perfect Dark World. Perhaps something to convince Asriel to stay and idolize the loner, Kris.
Kris didn't open a dark fountain, the just stabbed the ground, cut a wire and afterwards also a gas pipe
This has the perfect amount of schizophrenia. it's perfect.
I still don’t think so many people should think it is physically impossible for kris to be the knight as despite there being a fee things discrediting it, there is definitely far more evidence for it and narrative reasoning for kris to be the knight. But hey, it can really be anybody. If kris is the knight I wouldn’t be surprised but I also would expect for others to be the knight as well. And also it would be a bit strange that they would both be asleep as literally noelle meets up and asks them to study with them not too long before.
This theory is so good! One thing though, in the “a large person could fit in the closet” part, I always thought it was supposed to say that Kris could hide Berdly’s body in there after snowgrave, because I didn’t know that dialogue was there in the normal route also. When you go back to the lab after snowgrave, and berdly isn’t waking up, then I went to the closet and it said “a large body could fit in here” so I thought that would be the reason also, but it is weird it is there in the normal route also.