Roots of Fundamentalism: The Case of Pakistan | Farooq Sulehria
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- Опубліковано 26 січ 2023
- In order to understand the growth of religious fundamentalism in Pakistan, it is important to go beyond culturalist and orientalist explanations. In this session of Bazm-e-Tareekh-o-Adab, Farooq Sulehria will discuss the factors that have been instrumental in projecting fundamentalism to a near-hegemonic position in the country, whereas Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy will moderate this session.
About the speaker:
Farooq Sulehria teaches at Beaconhouse National University. He is author of ‘Media Imperialism in India and Pakistan’ (Routledge: 2018). He has also co-edited ‘From Terrorism to television: Dynamics of Media, State and Society in Pakistan’ (Routledge: 2021). Moreover, he edits daily Jeddojehad, an online Urdu-language website.
BJP has unified all sections of majority community at polling booth. But policies implemented does not discriminate based on religion. Earlier regimes pampered Ashrafias to get collective vote bank and inturn Ashrafias used religion and past Moghul glory to subjugate Pasmanda Muslims. Muslim community in India and Pakisthan awam have gone thru the same experiences in 75 years. Both sides Mullahs ,Strict adherence to Quoran and conniving polical class are real culprits
BJP has proved to be a mini Jihadi party with massive doles for Mozlems at the cost of Hindu taxpayers.
BJP is defeaningly silent on beheadings of Hindus by Jihadis
We saw how BJP appeased Mozlems during Nupur Sharma case.
All in all Bharat still doesn't have a Hindu party and we dream of Non Izlamic nation
@@jaibholenath6900 we need some serious opposition(not papu or leftist) to keep check on BJP
Not all sections. Only Hindus. The Mullah Vs normal Muslim chooran is bought by no one.
@@hawkingdawking4572 I said all sections of majority community, so that BJP does not have to play appeasement politics. In current Pakisthaan Gurbath the portrayed villains are military, mullah and elite (all are Punjabi) and they sold Lahori Churan for 75 years. In India Muslim elite (mullah and afrashi) were given preference and they in turn sold Islami churan to Pasmanda community. That has changed since 2014! In Pakisthaan Lahori churan is sold till a persons Kayamth thak
@@nand3576
The Pasmands chooran is a recent one which failed as those who were massacred in Gujarat were Pasmands( so-called). Hindu mass rape victim Bilkis Bano was among them too.
At 1:17:02 Dr. Hoodbhoy pointed out the main problem. Fundamentalism in a certain religion or sect leads to intolerance and this intolerance causes rise of fundamentalism in other sect/ religion. For example as you pointed out the BJP as fundamentalist government, it arose in India opposing muslim fundamentalism. Because majority of Muslim society does not want to be in a secular state, they did not assimilate into Indian society just because their belief of them being superior. So Hindus while resisting to intolerant Muslim fundamentalism, became Hindu fundamentalist.
the word hindu exists because muslims gave it to you. you have no identity
@@soheil527 The word "Hindu" exist because "Persians" gave it to us, the Persians who later converted to Islam. Even the term "Hindu" is older than Islam. Your ancestors were also Hindu back in the day. Nonetheless your jargon doesn't answer my comment about the problems of fundamentalism.
A fundamentalist Hindu is still more secular than an average muslim.
If RSS were a Muslim organization they would have awarded it the Nobel Peace Prize by now.
@@endurance24601 If I've to draw parallels between hindu and muslim groups. RSS is equivalent to progressive islamic groups.
Great 👌
Pakistan will stew in its religious idiocracy - thank you Jinnah for severing this problem from India.
there are still 300 million in India.
Thank british
Thank Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel also.
@@FirstLast-fj1yp Hold Mohandas and Jawaharlal responsible for not listening to Ambedkar.
What thank u Zinnah!
U should rather curse Mo Gazi urf Gaandi for leaving an entire Porkistan here
Roots of Islamic fundamentalism is the fundamentals of Quran and ahadiths.
@Syedbakeruddin Bekar "Prophet attacked Banu Mustaliq without warning when people were watering their animals at watering hole all men were killed and women taking captive " Sahi Bukhari. This is what IS did following the Sunna.
@Syedbakeruddin Bekar quran is root cause of Terrorism
No dear, it's their misguided interpretation. Every text operates within specific context, which fundamentalist miss out. Read Bharat Ratna Waheedudin khan
@Syedbakeruddin Bekar allah is fake ID of Muhammad
@Syedbakeruddin Bekar oh, really?
What does Qur'an 9: 5 says can you tell me
Only 5% comments are from Pakistan, whereas 95% comments are from Hindus of Hindustan🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳.
This explains a lot wrt why Pakistan is in this condition...
Run a similar program in India (though impossible) and you get a similar reaction.
Indians obsessing over Pakistan, as usual...
@@hawkingdawking4572 you have no idea what India is
Come out of Madarsa and see world and contribute towards Humanity and World.
India is a pluralistic country too. You just have to be blind not to see its unity in diversity.
A pluralistic society that does not practice Freedom of Speech! Hmmm???
They are dumb India is more like Israel
@@Moonuuu ???
It's a lie. India is a de facto Hindu state. Pluralism is rejected by the Hindus and the plan is to declare Hindu Rashtra.
@@hawkingdawking4572 While that may be true about India, Pakistan wastes time worrying about India rather than being concerned about the condition of Pakistan. You have too many problems in your country and yet you guys are India-centric, to a fault! With a problematic constitution, a government and a society that are both essentially theocratic, lacking leadership and governance, itself rejecting pluralism, Pakistan is anything but a democracy or anywhere near it. Forget India and fix your country.
Hinduism is intrinsically secular.
Mr Hoodboy, please check the comments. Mostly from india. Pakistanis for whom you are conducting these sessions are nowhere to be seen in comments apart from few live attendees and out of these 50% will reject your idea after leaving the session, which means nobody in Pakistan cares about what you are saying. Great sessions.
Well said bro. Even I am wondering that there are no Pakistani in pakistan. I came to black hole to really understand where the problem lies. I sometimes doubt are we not fooled by Indian politician same like how Pakistanis are fooled by mullas and politicians in the name of religion.
In Gujarat India people vote for Modi bcoz ease of doing business that started when Modi was CM of Gujarat.
No. He became popular in Gujarat and particularly the rest of India because he is known as the person who 'taught Mullahs a lesson' as Hindus say.
@@hawkingdawking4572
What's wrong with "teaching mullahs a lesson"? Lots of Pakistanis curse the mullahs for having ruined their country and wish to do the same!
@@ArmageddonIsHere
Teaching Mullahs is a good tactic. But once the Mullah knows about that Tindus are a bunch of beasts and they have to fight a civil war, all hell would break lose. I am just waiting for that.
@@hawkingdawking4572
It is easy to waken up a sleeping guy
But
No possible to waken up some one who is mocking sleeping
I feel pitty for you, because in your childhood madarsa inserted a Islam Chip in your Mind, due to which till you live in this world will not be compatible with other human being and constantly thinking of 30 men sex power and 72 Hoors.
Only internal revolution will help, others have almost gave up on radical Islam think
Black hole is an wise attempt, I pray this people live long and no one kills them
Harish bhai, These people are conditioned when there we Kid, so they can't grow
You and me both are from different religions but still compatible as OUR UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE is KARMA and
NOT DHARMA
Islam mai Ulta hai, They see DHARMA first and NOT THE KARMA..
The basic difference between Hindustan 🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳 and Pakistan is religion..
Hindu believes in inclusiveness whereas muslim believes in fanaticism...
If in Hindustan muslim becomes a majority then Hindustan will become Pakistan
It's a big fat lie spread by years of govt sponsored propaganda. Hinduism is always about exclusion and the otherness. As Hindus don't even have nominal code for laws and clear ideology, it can't afford to run a proper religious state. 70% of the current Hindus were forced into Hinduism without them even knowing acknowledging as under British the votes would matter. Hindus had to include the Shudras, Athishudras and Mlechchas to give them votes to counter Islam and Christianity by majority.
100% true.👍🏼
As long as India retains its above 2/3rd Hindu majority status, India will remain a liberal, progressive & inclusive Society and as a Modern Secular Democracy continue moving forward on its path towards rapid positive development in every sphere of life despite seemingly insurmountable obstacles in its way, overcoming them one way or other.
However, God forbid, if & when that changes, it won't take long before India too devolves into multiple miserable balkanised barbaric Islamic Hellholes, each one suffering from Acutest identity Crisis Ever in the entire known-recorded history of mankind and perpetually operating in sheer "bad faith" (pun intended) without any shame, scruples, self-respect, integrity or goodwill whatsoever - just like Pakistan.
I feel Dr. Hoodbouy has limited exposure to Hindu thought. He needs to study Hindu thought, particularly as propounded in Upnishads. Unfortunately, Muslims see Hinduism only thru negatives like caste. Over the last 75 yrs, Pakistanis have been totally blinded by Hindu hatred.
He is leftish mostly atheist…. He has refused to educate himself about any religion because of the exp he had with Islam.
Now he is too old to understand hindu civilization. After a certain age people loses their ability to learn new thing he is already in that age group
Critics of Sanatan Dharma is like those people who would spent time in septic tank but don't want to Visit Bed room,kitchen,balcony etc..
India is shining don't worry about us.
Only extra ordinary people worry about others while they are sinking.
Then why are you watching this? Coz you can't have a similar program in India?
@@hawkingdawking4572
It's pleasurable to watch an enemy uselessly discuss minor intellectual points as they slide to their doom.
Have you ever heard of _schadenfreude_ ?
@@ArmageddonIsHere
No. Never heard about it. And don't want to hear after you mentioned it.
@@hawkingdawking4572
Didn't expect that you'd have heard of it, in fact was pretty sure of it: you didn't seem to be particularly well-educated.
And from your response above, it is clear why you're undereducated; it's in your mindset.
True. Intolerance leads to fundamentalism leads to extremism leads to terrorism. Root cause is intolerant thought.
Fundamentalism Har us country me hoga jaha islam 1st ya 2nd major religion hoga.
Indians is are more interested in such conversation than pakistanis themselves, which is almost fundamental (pardon the pun) to their survival.
Islam is a political religion. A political religion is the one whose basic teaching requires that its beliefs and practices cannot be fulfilled till the political power rests with its followers. This is like the political ideologies of democracy, Marxism or Fascism which cannot be implemented till the political power rests with is followers or ideologues.
Prophet Mohammad implemented political Islam when he established an Islamic state in Medina supplanting earlier Jews followed by the capture of Mecca. After his death in 632, political Islam covered vast swathes of territory in the middle east, Africa and central Asia and the Indian subcontinent as well. Everywhere it was the political Islam which ruled where non-Muslims in principle could not prevail unless they pay jiziyya or be converted into the only true faith of Islam. Islam is nothing unless it be political.
Another political religion was Zoroastrianism as it was the state religion of all pre-Islamic Persian empires, but it disappeared quickly after the fall of Sassanids in Iran. The only political religion in full sense before Islam was Judaism, but compared with Islam it was minuscule in its political dimension beyond the Hasmonean kingdom or a few others till the establishment of Israel in 1948. Besides its political apparatus was much earlier destroyed by the Romans in the year 70. Further Judaism unlike Islam was not a universal political religion as it did not aspire to rule the world, but its political ambitions were confined to the Promised Land.
To begin with, Christianity was not a political religion, but it partly turned political when it became the state religion of Roman Empire in the 4th century and survived specially in its Catholic version till its demise in the Treaty of Westphalia (1648).
Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism or other pagan faiths like the African Voodoo or the Japanese Shintoism are not political as they do not ask their followers to wage jihad till they become Hindus, Voodooists, Shintos and so on. Hence no Hindu or Buddhist jihadists or suicide bombers.
There can be no religious fundamentalism unless its religion is political. Hence there can be no Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Voodoo or Shinto fundamentalism. The only political religion at present being Islam so there there can be only Islamic fundamentalism. Q.E.D.
Interesting and somewhat enlightened discussion. Being from india lived there for 79 years, I would say india , including bjp, are not fundamentalist in any sense. If there are some voices comming up now, it is because of fundamentalism of emanating from muslim world ie Saudi Arab Pakistan bangaladesh, iran(1979), afganistan, turkey.
If hindus were fundamentalists in real sense, islam would not have gained ground in indian sub continent.
I find Mr Pervez understanding of RSS and Hinduism very limited.
There is a seriously low understanding on this topic in Pak.
Yes they think that Hindus are intolerant and they quote Quranic verses that intolerance towards Islam is nature of Satan therefore they feel that it's their right to eliminate our culture and convert us. When RSS stands for defence they say RSS is fascist.
Agree with you
Speaker plays safe because he is aware of 'sir tan se juda' and blasphemy law in papistan!
Mujhe nehi lagta pakistan m philosophy pedhai jaati hogi...bcz Islam mei khulker koi religion or god per question Nehi ker sakte jabki Hinduism or Christianity mei khulker religion or god ko bhi criticise kiya jata hai ..
Teaching ETHICS in a highly UNETHICAL society is way too difficult, yet I do teach and even I have faced the dire consequences as well, but I believe that I am obligated to play my due role to bring peace and harmony in the society.
@@counseling4careerpl. stay safe; carry on with what you believe is your duty but don't risk your life.
@@Arianne3011
Thank you for your support. Please keep me in your prayers.
you are wrong. There is big criticisim in Islam.
M. K. Gandhi ji once said that how they rule India? He replied How Muslim Khaalifa Abubakar and Omar has ruled.
Please read Gandhi ji.
No matter how much muslim is progressive their views on Hinduism is very narrow. The basic root of Hinduism and bharatvarsh is based on spirituality and divinity which is impossible to understand from islamic lens.
No. It's just a propaganda. The claim of BharathaVarsha is a bogus one. It was new term used in the 19th and 20th centuries to unite the newly formed empire where a new religion called Hinduism was made majority by including the Shudras, Athishudras and Mlechchas in the 1871 census. The root of Hinduism is not spirituality or some vague divinity but having a lot of gods and worship of some traditional idols.
@@hawkingdawking4572 bharatwarsh ek propganda hai waah! Fir bhi ham pakistanio se behtar hai,,secular hain aur as a nation United hain.
@@Rhn-vm3vs
In dreams. The secularism in India is an exaggeration. Hinduism is the de facto religion of the state. Muslims don't even get justice forget about shares in power jobs. Even the closest community to the Hindus, the Jains are unhappy with the current Hinduization movement.
@@hawkingdawking4572 waah BC waah,,
Tumhare samvidhaan me likha hai ki koi non muslim PM nahin ban sakta,,aur secularism par gyaan hame de rahe ho Jahan Abdul Kalam jo muslim they un ko president banaya gaya
President matlab samjhte ho? Sena ke teeno wings ka head,,fauj ka head।
Tum gyaan de rahe ho bharat ko ,
Abdul salaam jaise great scientist Tak ko tumne nikal bahar feka sirf ahmadiya hone ke karan aur secularism ka gyan de rahe ho
@@Rhn-vm3vs
Abdul Kalam was token piece. He was a Hindu. The secularism in India is a propaganda piece not a real one.
Congratulations Prof. Parvaiz for such an enlighted discussion Such programs reflect a different version of Pakistan.
Buniyaad Prasti of Mynamar, Sri Lanka etc. That you mentioned is not the same as the buniyaad prasti of Muslims. Please dig deeper and you will find the buniyaad prasti of non-Muslims is mainly a reactive measure by the non-Muslims to deal with or say counter Muslim buniyaad prasti. Same is also true of the scene in India. Savarkar (considered Hindu buniyaad prast by a lot of people) once said: I am Hindu because you are Muslim. In other words, I have to assert my hinduness because you are asserting your muslimness. Otherwise we could all live as just Indians and keep our religious practices confined to our respective homes.
Bhai Myanmar mein unko pahle se hi citizenship se bahar kar Diya Gaya tha just becuz unka alag language aur culture h vo log unhe bahri mante h isliye jyada discrimination hota h
Bhai Sikh ki pagdi par kya kahoge ye to hypocrisy h apki
1:00:29 - 1:01:51 uncle read history...bas talwar hi the...acchi chiz kuch nahi diya tha islam ne! Itne der bol ke ek bhi acchi chiz gina nahi sake😑
Unnecessary cover up karne ki jarurat nahi!😒
People need to realise the main reason for Modi to win 2 times is the ultimate failure of congress to respond after the Mumbai terror attack and commonwealth games. At least now most of the issue is concentrated to Kashmir and most of the country is free from annual bomb blast. And anyone who thinks Indian democracy is in danger need to realise people voted for BJP . If congress for once didn’t think why they lost and change there way they’ll gonna lose 3rd time too.
54:53 Impressed by the question from the audience.
Paraphrased: The European enlightenment was inspired from the Greek culture and philosophy. Can any similar inspiration be drawn from the History and culture of the subcontinent?
I am summarily disappointed at the lack of historical depth of the intellectual elite of Pakistan. They cannot seem to the go beyond the supremacist historiography of the West and derive inspiration from their own blood.
The schism in the identity of the Muslim in the Subcontinent is complete. It does not matter if he/she is a jihadi, a communist or a liberal. Despite all the "secular" education they had, the Hindu is too najis(unclean) to deserve any unprejudiced study. All the Hindu has is the caste system. Really? That is your intellectual depth and academic rigour.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Let me try and introduce a fresh perspective.
Some preliminary facts:
1. The Europeans here refer to the Christian civilization. This very civilization was responsible for the extinction of the Greco-Roman Civilization.
2. The Greeks and the Romans were pluralistic, non-abrahamic(pagan) societies that believed in assimilation of different beliefs within them. It was very common to include the different entities of identity and worship from the various Greek tribes in the unified Greek Pantheon and myths were developed around them to stitch the Civilization together. This very thing was offered to the Christians but they refused to accept the pantheon of the Greeks.
3. The Athenian democracy that is idolized in the west is not an ideal model. This was a society practicing slavery with significant social hierarchy and suffrage was not universal. However, it is much better than most models and can be improved upon.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Now, coming to the question. I am assuming all of the attendees here belong to the Subcontinent.
The Pre-islamic culture here is very similar to the Greco-Roman culture. In fact it is more similar to the Ancient Greek Culture than the Modern Greek Culture is to its past.
Similar to the Greeks this society has an enormous capability to assimilate. There has been historic successful assimilation of the Bactrian Greeks, Huns, Shakas(Scythians), Kushans, preliminary Turks in the Western Frontiers and the Tai in the Eastern Frontiers. These people are now indistinguishable from the subcontinent population. Also, the entire geography of the Subcontinent is involved in the narrative making for the Civilization. Each region has contributed to the Civilizational corpus at different points in time. The Hindu pantheon is a great example. There are deities from across the land. Even other figures of worship like the Buddha, Mahavir and the Sikh Gurus find place in the Hindu Pantheon. Stories and myths are developed around this to create cohesion and acceptance. Every Hindu child is brought up in this manner.
The first challenge to this system was posed by the invading Muslims who could not place their deity among those of the kafirs. Subsequent challenges have been posed by Christianity.
Now coming to the Philosophical and Scientific background of the subcontinent.
The Hindu Darshan(philosophy) has
6 major streams the Shatdarshan: Nyaya, Vaisheshik, Samkhya, Yoga, Purva Mimansa and Uttar Mimansa or Vedanta, and
3 minor streams: Boudda, Jaina and Charvaka.
The Hindu Contributions to Science has been fundamental to the progress of Science as we know it. Some notable mentions are:
The Decimal System, Concept of zero, Placeholder notation system, Geometry(Sulbha sutras), Arithmetic(Ganit), Algebra(Beej-ganit), classification and nomenclature of plant and animal species based on their properties, surgery(Sushrut Samhita), ayurveda(Charak Samhita) etc. Even the Al Khwarizmi's works on arithmetic and astronomy have been mostly translations of Indian texts.
The corpus of Indian Philosophy and Sciences is many times over the total contribution of the Greeks and Romans. The Greeks did not even have an advanced system of numerals to develop their mathematics and the Roman numeral system cannot even quickly compute multiplication of large integers, leave alone fractions.
The Indian Contributions to the arts is also phenomenal.
But similar to most societies, India to had its evils like the Birth based Varna System in societal practice. This is however not a uniquely Hindu phenomenon. Even to this day Japanese, Chinese, Arab, Berber, South American, Meso American, Indonesian, Malay and Eastern Europeans still practice birth based and discrimination and occupational practices. Even the so called egalitarian religions like Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc. have birth based privileges and debilitations. I am thankful that the Hindu society has come to accept the existence of this social evil and is trying at all levels to eradicate it.
However, it can be noted that throughout its existence subjugation of other humans to slavery has never been practiced by Hindus. This can be cross-checked by descriptions of Greek, Chinese and Arab travellers to the Subcontinent.
The Story of Indian wealth as a percentage of global wealth has been well documented by Angus Maddison. This has been upwards of 30% of world's GDP at the start of the previous millennium before the advent of the Turko-islamic invasions of the subcontinent.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Suffice to say there is a ocean of inspirations in the Subcontinent to get develop upon.
The European christians started adoring their pagan forefathers after they had exterminated them. Perhaps the Indian converts to Islam will start this journey after cleansing the subcontinent of the Hindus. This is a pipe dream looking at the current state of things. Therefore, abject failure and a rock-bottom drop of the "Land of the Pure" Project will provide the necessary incentive to look at history beyond 1400 years. The fall of the West and Rise of the East will also act as a catalyst.
One of the most remarkable Nobel statistics is that 22 per cent of winners have been Jewish, despite our people comprising less than 0.2 per cent of the world's population....🙏
That's why they hate Jews the most after Hindus.
How many Hindus are there ?
@@hawkingdawking4572Are you Mad. PAKÌSTAN Jehadi.
@@rashtriyachankyaparty5563
I am cool Shooodra boy, work the Bromen farms fast. Remove that English shirt first.
parvez hoodboy is such an intelligent voice.pakistan would be a better place if there were more people like him there..
*_I Have Observed One Thing. When There's Discussion On Islamic Achievements. The Room Will Be Filled With Audience. Fundamentalism Is Not A Real Issue. It Is Part Of Sunnat._*
Anything Islamic, Pakistan is ready for it.
Yes, fundamentalism should not be an issue in Islam. Waste lecture.
@@CuriousBharat don't you see what fundamentalism is doing to Pakistan? Don't you see Afghanistan? It is an issue, people are killed on false blasphemy charges.
There are no Islamic achievements. An Arab having a Arabic/Muslim name doesn't make him a Muslim.
Biggest library in the world was burnt by Muslims. Arabic scientists were killed just because they were doing scientific researches.
Problem is Muslims, not the religion.
@@Professkr That’s What I’m Saying. Fundamentalism Is The Part Of Islam.
Please Read Quràn, Or Atleast Do Some Research.
Chapter 3 Verse 12, Allàh Says, ‘Anyone Who Do Disbelieve In Allàh Wíll Bùrn In Hèll Forever’.
Chapter 3 Verse 85 - Any Religíon Except Islàm Is Not Accèptable At All.
Chapter 5 Verse 33 - Anyone who speaks agaínst Allàh & Its Mèssenger Must Be Hàrshly Puníshèd.
Chapter 98 Verse 6 - Those Who Don’t Belíeve In Allàh Are Wòrse Thàn Anímàls. They’re Wòrst Of All The Crèaturè.
Is This Not Fundamentalism??
@@Professkr Mr Akram, If You Think Problem Is Only With The Muslíms. Please Declare Them non-Muslím.
You People Have Organisation Of Islamíc Council Meeting Every Year. Please Declare Pakístan As non-Islàmíc Country.
Umrah In Mècca Should Be Banned To All Those Mùslíms Who’re Not Followíng Islàm Correctly.
You People Have Invented New Terminologies To Protect Yourself From Crítícism.
In The Past, Someone Can Be Either Mùslím Or non-Mùslím. There Was No Concept Of Half Muslím, 10% Muslím, 20% Muslím, Bàd Muslím, Good Muslím, Partially Good Muslím etc.
Earlier, If You’re Muslím Only If You’re Following Islàm Correctly. Otherwise, You Will Be Pùníshed Or Discardèd From Islàm.
Today, You Muslíms Doing All Sòrts Of Bàd Thíngs Stíll You Call Yourself Muslím.
Either You People Bríng Some Làw To Remove Bàd Muslíms From Islàm Immediately Or Accept That Islàm Allòws Bàd Thíngs. Because, Both Thíng Can’t Co-exist.
If Your People Say That He/She Follow Islàm. Then Stop Them From Wròng Thíngs. If They’re Doing Wróng Things, Declare Them non-Muslím. So, That No One Could Say That _“Islàm Follower Did Wróng Thing.”_
Your People Kíll Us And Shòut Allàh Hu Akbàr. They Are Stíll Muslím, They Stíll Visit Mècca. They Stíll Able To Visit Mosqùès, They Can Stíll Have A Mùslím Name, They Can Stíll Show Themselves Leader Of Islàm & Have Thousands Of Followèrs.
How??
When We Raíse Our Vóice Agaínst It. Suddenly, Some Muslíms Come And Say *_“Islàm Is Pèàcèful. I’m Sorry That You’re Famíly Has Gót Kíllèd. But, Remember, Islàm Is Beautiful. One More Things, Tomorrow Your Daùghtèr Wíll Ràpèd In Her School By A Mùslím Because She Refùsèd To Accèpt Islàm. But Remember, Islàm Doesn’t Allow Fòrce. Islàm Is Pèàcèful. I Wíll Cùt Your Thróàt Now If You Don’t Accept That Islàm Is Pèàcèful.”_*
It’s so disappointing to see so few in the crowd for Dr Parvez. If it was India, even Eden gardens wouldn’t have been large enough to hold the audience. He is in a wrong country.
That's why he is still living in Pakistan. If he had a big following the Pakistan Army/ISI would have made sure that he could not live there.
hindus by nature are argumentative its part of religion to question everything thats why you pick up any text its full of questions and argument on the other hand abrahmic religions (not just islam) are dogmatic either you believe that donkeys fly and earth if flat or get beheaded you see religions like this can never i repeat can never co exist coz by nature they are exclusionary on the other hand hindusim ( Hinduism and perhaps jainsim) are assimilatory in nature not even sikhism and bhuddhism have this nature of assimilation.
@@bodaddy6771
Very accurately put!
Very well describes what a "revealed religion" is: "here's this narrow path I've defined for you, and if you're not on it, you're a kafir/pagan and you're against us".
I think you have good opinion on pervez hodboy 😂😂. He is science person but he has hatred internally on sanatan philosophers and practices. He is liberal but he always try to defend Islam by saying that mullas are responsible for all the havoc but not Islam.
One thing I observed is that those so called secular islamic scholars talk about the present Indian Govt as non secular. In conclusion when it comes to Hindu they are all equally expert in intolerance
towards India & Hindu.
I disagree with some of the views specially about Hinduism. There is a huge difference between fundamentalist and right wing oriented. BJP Is not anti progress or anti science it is not a religious fundamentalist at all you can consider it as a right wing nationalist party like other right wing parties in Europe. We don’t have blasphemy laws here in India. You consider RSS as fundamentalist but they welcome LGBTQ community with open arms and RSS chief consider it as natural sexual tendency and also believes in scientific theories most of the RSS members are scientists,researchers,economist and historians they are not priest and few members are not even Hindu. Maybe you can make a point that Hinduism itself believes in pluralism and secularism we don’t say a particular book is only true book or our god is only true god! BJP came or rise to power only after 2014 then why Pakistan had same narrative even at time of congress rule? I’m surprised to see that even so called liberals and progressive Pakistanis have delusional vision of India.
Fully agree. It's a false equivalence that is constantly made. I think it's a projection of their own self, and assume the Hindu/Sanatan side is similar, without really understanding it at any depth. How sad.
very well said, totally agree with you on this.
Bhai abhi LGBTQ community ka marriage recognition ka virodh bjp vale hi kar rhe aur rss vale bhi
Basic problem of Pakistan is that no land reforms took place there. As a result landless people become recruits of both religious fundamentals and separatists.
پاکستان کے لیے بنیاد پرستی سے دور جانے کے لیے - حل یہ ہے کہ وہ اپنی جڑوں، ہندو طرز زندگی کی طرف واپس چلے جائیں۔ اسلام کو چھوڑ کر نہیں بلکہ خالص، انسانی اور اچھی شکل میں اس کی پیروی کرنا اور ہندو طرز زندگی کو اپنانا۔
1:33:29 this guy spoke out the reality of what's happening in pakistan madarssa 👍
We Hindustani🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳 thank Jenha for creating Pakistan and successfully seggrigating the Jihadis...
Well said, I also thanks Jinnah on all pak channels.
Just think na agar ye log India mai hote tohhh apna kya hota
We would have struggled a lot
Whatever happens happenss for good bhai
I really feel sad pay tribute for those all who suffered during partition.
Ek Sayar and Vakil ne kya Desh Banaya Mazhab ke Naam se
Aaj Na Mazhab and Na naam raha
I wish a complete exchange of population had happened as proposed by Ambedkar.
@@personalpr3723 That's why I am against including POK and GB in India. The nation may go back in time forever. Scary.
It is a matter om immense joy to see that Prof Hoodbhoy has taken an initiative to provide a public platform for such types of debates, which augers well for Pakistan. I hope this is indicative of change of mind set and perceptions dominating for last 75 years
You cannot be secular and a believing Muslim at the same time young man over 75 years...
Excellent discussion
People like you all will save mankind
They will talk and talk and talk, but never have gut to clearly condemn Quran, Hadiths, Sharia.
I can ask you to condemn on clow smuggling lynching and ask you to publicly condemn the sacredness of cows. You can't do it. Can you?
@@hawkingdawking4572firstly let me correct you it's cow not clow and yes i(being Hindu) can publicly condemn cow based lynching, i can condemn Manusmriti and i can condemn very possible sutra itended to dehumanise human beings in Hindu scriptures. And i believe No scriptures are Sacred and need evolution with time. And that's difference btw you and me, i acknowledge my shortcomings and work towards eradicating them but you believe in supremacy and sacredness of scripture and can't condemn them.
@@ankitlamba4253
It's not you can but what you actually do. You can't condemn cow culture in India. It's just not realistic.
@@hawkingdawking4572 I'm sitting in India and making a comment on Public platform. What more do you need?
@@ankitlamba4253
UA-cam comments are not tracked by countries. It's quite hard for even the Chinese. Public speech is another affair.
I am an Indian anf really like tge discussion. Though they are more specific to the Pakistan, but many of them such as this topic is universal in nature.
I would like to add something here. I listen to Mr Engineer Ali Mirza and think that people like him are needed more. If the religion is a most influential thing for set of people them, then rational religious people are needed more
Awesome discussion
They don't talk zilch about history before Akbar. Shows their own ancestral ignorance. Height if Al Taqqiya.
There isn't much before Mughals. Except loin cloths, Hindus had basically had the least amount of culture and civility. They had to copy everything from foreign rulers. Look at king Shivaji or Modi, they wear Salwar Qameez, shoes and Turbans with swords copied from Muslim Turkic rulers.
Philosophy pedhani hai toh Indian philosophy or western philosophy pedho....dimag hil jayega...☺️🙏
Roots of Fundamentalism in Islam is Quran, Hadith and life of Muhammad itself.
Like father like son.
V good subject chosen.
Israel and Pakistan are no comparison. Identity of Pakistan is anti Hindu, anti Bharath. Identity of Israel is not anti Nazi, anti Germany. That's the difference.
It's like India is a anti - Pakistan.
Professor Hoodbhoy, I am an Indian and I applaud The Black Hole initiative. May the almighty give you and your students strength to take this forward. Best wishes.
You do not know anything about Hoodbhoy....
@@paul1729
what is it that he doesn't know?
Amazing discussion.
Secularism is the term used by Western social scientists. This cannot be applied to Asian countries as it is. The Hindu word "Sarv Dharm Sambhav" means for the state can have it's religion but at the same "the state should be equal to all religions.
Great talk. Wish Farooq, Pervez and the audience had spent some more time discussing what Farooq said was the main factor: alternative society. The state and socuety has to provide economical and welfare value to the poor people on the ground, so that the main reason fundamentalism finds a lot of traction can be challenged. Ideology and academic debate is great, but there is no chance of reaching out to millions of the poor around Pakistan. The rulers of Pakistan must realize that they have a responsibility to provide opportunities, justice and order...or perish over time.
Unfortunately there is no one in Pakistan who can be called as India expert. Making views about something or someone based on Indian opposition is not true picture.
Beautifully structured talk
plural society meaning "a society composed of different ethnic groups or cultural traditions, or in the political structure of which ethnic or cultural differences are reflected"
Dr Parvez wah kya baat hai
Good talk. I really like the way the topics are written on the black-board. Every time the writing is beautiful.
Who is fuelling fundamentalism? Great question.
I feel the most practical way forward for Pakistan is to have independent federal states of Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunava having independent governance like USA states and centre controls only defence and Foreign relations till some Amity is achieved in the country.
I thought dear Dr. Hoodbhoy is Parsi but I was reading he is not..He is muslim. He is a thinker and think a lot about the condition of Pakistani nation.He is an honest man.
If he was Parsi Hindu, Christian he wouldn’t have reached to this height in Pakistan.
Hearing the names of Fred Halliday ( heard him speak at Georgetown University back in 1980s), Samuel Huntington and Bernard Lewis, Max Weber brought me back 40 years when I attended GU. and then reference to Iqbal Ahmed! He was a gem of a man and what an intellect.
Black Hole presents excellent [rograms, please make more and more programs De. Hood bhoy sahib.
Loved the part where Pervez and Farooq discuss Bernard Lewis. I believe Farooq has a more correct understanding. There is no opposition between Islam and Western civilization, because there is no Islam with a capital I. Muslims define what Islam is. Sometimes the majority of Muslims have defined it as being way ahead of others civilizations around them, as in early Muslim Era. Sometimes they've defined it as being more regressive than other civilizations around them, as in recent times. As any other religion, Islam is not static but is changed by people who follow that religion as they see fit.
1:21:21 " islam hinduism se bhi jyada secular " iss bhai ko pucho daaru jyada toh nhi pili aaj
Bhay Daaru haram hai Izlam me
Nabeda allowed hai
Excellent discussion for a common Indian.
I am a hindu. But not a very deeply studied person.
I recollect one sentence from some VED that "Even a statement from Vedas must be taken with enquiry."
This we do very freely. Probably, this is why - despite not having coverted even a single person with sword/ money - sanatan dharma still exists.
It is the fundamental BELIEF that creates intolerance.
Thankyou for a very enlightening discussion.Unless religion is replaced by a modern, ethical,empathetic way of life, it will continue to cast its primitive, medieval shadow on human conduct.
Agreed completely. If u are in Pakistani, do u meet closet atheists around.
Absolutely true.
@@paramvir2006 I have met only one, a retired university professor.
@@arshaddurrani3885 thanks. tk
1:07:30
The main reason for the popularity of religious organizations in Afghanistan and Pakistan is the distance between government institutions and the people.
It appears that a well-thought-out plan is being made to increase the popularity of the radical class by disabling government institutions.
Aap log ko india k baare mei or BJP k baareei kuch nehi peta... BJP ek secular, democratic party hai...they support freedom of expression, they respect secular values.
They support LGBTQ community .
Read about India and Hinduism....read about BJP's history....
why would they? islam is best.
No, These People Will Make Big Statements On Democracy. But, They Will Never Discuss _Why A Single Family Is Managing Congress Party?_ _Why People From A Single Family Is Projected As Prime-minister Candidate?_ Where As BJP Has Proved That Even A 'Tea-Seller' Can Become Top Leader In BJP. Their Hypocrisy Is Already Exposed.
Lol 😂😂
India is developing under hindus don't worry about us.
Itne acche channel ko pakistan m koi dekhta hi nahi...so sad...🙁
Isme Islamic touch nhi hai...😂😂😂
@@turning_point96 😂😂😂😂😂
Aata nhi meel rah aap Internet ki baat kar rahe ho
So sad,
If you run a similar program in India.... Well that would never happen.
1:17:23 This remark from the audience was the most convincing argument in this entire video. Hats off to this gentleman. The guest has very limited knowledge and due to this he doesn't seem confident on the questions asked. Parvez bhai is very knowledgeable. But he still has biased views on certain things. He clearly lacks understanding about the Hindu culture and difference with Islam, but gives wrong comparisons very confidently.
Yes hoodboy shows his limitation. Also struck by fundamental Islamic think.
Yes. The guest speaker was not an expert on this subject and his talk was not convincing at all.
What I understood is Islam people should appreciate and respect other religions and. Views. They should have idea to co exist with others. My way or no way does not work.
It Works. That's Why They Have 57 Countries With Majority. You Have 1. Apke Saamne Agar Pagal Janwar Aa Jaye To Aap Usko _"We Should Co-exist"_ Ki Gyaan Nhi De Skte. You Have To Fight To Defend Yourself. That's The Only Way. Gandhi Ji Ki Tarah _Ek Gaal Pr Maroge To Dusra Gaal Bhi Aagey Kr Dunga_ Bologe To Jabda Tod Denge Ye Log.
Seemingly impossible for a Muslim to treat religion as a purely spiritual endeavour and separate from politics.
The difference between Islamic and other extremisms is that the former is based on lust and self-interest, while the latter are based on safeguarding religion. A TTP suicide bomber commits his act because it guarantees jannat for him, even though he knows that it will damage the reputation of Islam and Muslims. In contrast, a gao rakshak lynches because he considers the cow to be sacred, not because saving the cow will somehow redeem him in the metaphysical life.
I thought Parvez Hudbhoy was an intellectual, and I respected him for that.
At 1:20:30, Parvez Hudbhoy says that Hindus have no threat from Muslims. Is he serious? Pakistan finished off all minorities because of their faith, and despite being a Pakistani, he doesn't know it? He should read the constitution of Pakistan. One faith has always been a threat to all other faiths. Parvez Hudbhoy is strongly advised to read the history of Indian subcontinent.
He is not worthy of respect.
The basic cause of stagnation in Islamic countries more particularly in Pakistan is Kalma and Quran. Second part of Kalma clearly states that no reform and reformer after Mohammed. What would happen to that society which is not ready for reform or for co opting new ideas.
Kayade Azam hoodbhoy sahab.
01 30 best comments by this young man who is calling spade a spade.
Strong roots of democracy can cop up fundamentalism and prevail secularism.
1:00, what is that good thing??
فاروق صاحب کی بات صحیح ہے اچھی لگی مجھے، جو کامیاب ہے اسکو فولو کرو، پہیہ دوبارہ کیا بنانا۔
Fundamentalism definition 'a form of a religion, especially Islam or Protestant Christianity, that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture'. Salafism or Wahhabism in the west is considered fundamental Islam. Some commentators have suggested that Salafism came about as a reaction to decline of Islam during colonial period in Middle East and rise of Zionism. However, the petrodollar has had an impact on poor nations such as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Syria due to strategic location. It is worth pointing out that AQ and Taliban came out of AF following USSR invasion and IS came out of Iraq following USA invasion.
At 56:55 he makes a brilliant point and asks a question "kya islam hamara hai ?? ispe marne maarne pe lag jaate hai" .
@54:55 it is obvious what the questioner was alluding to . I think the 2 experts did not realize it . He was asking the 2 experts to acknowledge the ancient wisdom and critical and secular thought of the Hindus .. jeez …
Where are comments from people of Pakistan?
They can not write in English....
Here
I love Moulana Wahiuddin khan Saheb Marhoom...💓💓💓
The problem with Islam and it's followers is that
1.They think their religion is the only truth of reality and everyone are false.
2.They have no respect over other religions and their gods therefore they see other religious people as inferior to them in all terms.
3. With this kind of mindset they always think that it's their responsibility to spread Islam by whatever means needed.
4. With this mindset they plan to do jihad on disbelievers. And when they succeed to get power over other religious people they ask them to pay jizziya which forces people to convert to Islam and with power in hands they bring down temples and wash away everything related to disbelievers.
5. When those disbelievers revolt over them they quote islamic verses and when those disbelievers know that they are doing it because of commands given in quran. Those disbelievers starts to insult Mohammad. Now Islamist find this as an opportunity to kill and wipe them completely.
When Hindus and Buddhists try to go against these atrocities done by muslims they naturally make organisations(RSS) and ideologies(Hindutva) to enlighten their youth to raise voice and hands against them.
How can you call them fascist?.
@@charansai2476 yes majority of muslim think like this but not everyone. you can read moulana wahiuddin khan or javed ahmad ghamdi saheb and many more others. they have very diffrent opinions.
@@AnweR-AmmaR Having difference in opinions will not solve problem. If they have good view of Islam and if they respect other religions then they should stand against extremist. They should be the people who should first raise voice against conversion.
Where are they when muslims shout in loudspeakers saying that hindu men should leave Kashmir but not women. Where are they when muslims shout "Sar tan se Juda".
@@AnweR-AmmaR I have already listen to Gamidi. He might have soft view of Islam but even he supports conversion.
It's a lie that there's no casteism in Islam. Asrafi are like Brahmin among Indian Islam and Afzals are Dalits of Indian Islam.
Religious fundamentalism is the approach of those religious groups that look for the literal interpretation of original religious texts or books believing that teachings obtained from this kind of reading must be used in all social, economic, and political aspects.
Great introduction of Israel and Pakistan: Maxime Rodinson called Israel and US settler colonial states. A people enter a land, displace the local population and occupy it as settlers . I think displacement can also be economical instead of physical.
Nobody point out violence described in quaran itself. Unless people have guts to question that nothing will resolve.
All the religions reformed with time except for Islam.
Britishers encouraged reformers of Hindu religion like Raja Rammohan Roy, Swami Dayanand Saraswati and Hinduism reformed. British never even try to bring about reforms in Islam, wonder why?
Indian present ruling party is majoritarian but under constitution, secularism, rule of law strong judiciary, diversity, pularity , wide education etc. with multi party secular parties.
@35:02 - modern thinking means more than just 'democracy'. It would be better to contrast them with enlightenment values.
Pakistan is India with Muslim majority . This is issue.
Even intellectuals in Pakistan haven't understood India/BJP/Hindutva. It's great, as they will continue misreading India and won't realize how India grew soo fast while also soo rooted in its culture.
There is a massive difference between Pakistan's fundamentalism of the 1960-70s and India's cultural resurgence happening right now. Topic for another debate, but the audience for that debate needs to be more well read
Most Indians commenting here are here to listen to Pakistani progressives being critical of their society even as back home they support conservative values or even fascist ones! They don't find any problem with the Sangh ecosystem, they ignore how minorities are threated by religio-political leaders with impunity. Denigration of Muslims in India is now normal and commonplace. They selectively forget history like murder of Gandhi, destruction of Babri, Gujarat riots and think the current dispensation is unproblematic! And then they come and listen to Pakistani progressives criticizing Pakistan to derive schadenfreude out of it... There is no doubt India's problem with fundamentalism is no where close to that of Pakistan but it's still at a concerning state and deriving schadenfreude from the fact that Pakistan is in a bigger hole wouldn't solve it.
If all countries turn to non-petrol alternatives, we can reduce the influence of Petrodollar.
Your local base is Taxila, secular economic, political, Aurvedic medicine, Charvac tradition, mathematics etc unfortunately you were Hindus at that time Mr Farooq, Mr Hoodboy and others
These are the intellects of Pakistan, but even they are not able to call the spade a spade.
Islam and Quran are the main reasons of fundamentalism in Pakistan. Professor Hoodbhoy is forgetting to mention the hatred fed to the kids through their school curriculum.