French Rifle Ammunition: 8mm Lebel and 7.5mm French
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- Опубліковано 6 сер 2017
- / forgottenweapons
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Today we are going through the French rifle ammunition used in the Lebel, Berthier, and MAS series rifles - 8mm Lebel and 7.5mm French.
The 8mm Lebel cartridge began as simply a necked-down version of the 11mm Gras cartridge, because that cartridge was already in use in the French Navy Kropatschek rifles which were the basis of the Lebel rifle design. As a result, the Lebel cartridge was significantly tapered and had a large rim (which would cause a series of problems for use in repeating arms in later years).
The model 1886 ammunition was a flat-nosed long conical bullet, with a lead core. The bullet weighed 15g/231gr and had a muzzle velocity of 638mps/2093fps. This was updated slightly in 1891 to strengthen the case and add a crimping groove to the bullet. Designated Balle 1886M, this cartridge would be the standard for almost 10 years.
In 1898, trials of a new spitzer bullet concluded with the adoption of Balle 1886D. This was not just a spitzer bullet, but actually a solid 90/10 brass bullet instead of a lead cored bullet, as this type was simpler to manufacture. The bullet weighed 12.8g/198gr and had a muzzle velocity of 701mps/2300fps.
In 1932, a new loading was developed to give better performance in machine guns, designated Balle 1932N. This was still a spitzer, but returned to the lead core type of construction. Its bullet weighed 15.05g/232gr and had a muzzle velocity of 690mps/2265fps. It was a more powerful round than the preceding versions, and incorporated a thicker neck in the brass. This required reaming out the chambered of existing weapons to avoid overpressure when firing. Converted weapons were marked with an "N" on the barrel and receiver. It is important not to fire this ammunition in unconverted firearms!
Today on the commercial market, the primary source of 8mm Lebel ammunition is PPU (Prvi Partisan). They make a cartridge loaded basically to Balle 1886D specifications, which can be safely used in both N-converted and unconverted rifles.
In 1924, a new rimless cartridge was adopted - the 7.5x58mm. A problem quickly revealed itself, however, because 8mm Mauser ammunition could be chambered and fired in firearms made for the new 7.5mm cartridge - with potentially catastrophic results. To solve this problem, the case was shortened to 54mm in 1929, and the new standard loading was Balle 1929C. This fired a 9g/139gr bullet at 823mps/2700fps and would be the standard French rifle cartridge until the adoption of the 5.56mm FAMAS in the 1970s.
"Les Cartouches 8mm Lebel" can be ordered here: www.crepin-leblond.fr/livres/5...
“Everyone went to a spritzer”
Italy:
*hides in the corner*
So did The Netherlands, and Greece.
@@justforever96 Point blanc shooting range. You don’t have to adjust your sight by so much compared to a round nosed bullet. It makes shooting way easier for the average soldier that isn’t a superb marksman.
@@MrXxHunter bro let him figure out it needs to be pointy, not round, because round is like a dick and make enemy smile and laugh
@@LeMeowAu True
I've never seen a wall socket so high up before. Fascinating.
I can beat that. My basement wall sockets are about 6.5' up the wall. Lol, the builder got lazy and didn't frame the foundation, so just put them up above ground level where the house is framed.
@@ryanwilson_canada
It will take a lot of floodwater to short your circuit.
9ft of water if that happens I have other issues lol
Must be French
@Edgar Cairo stupid message
Paper packets tied up with string?...This is one of my favorite things.
GREY paper packages tied up with string. It wasn't so long ago that the post office would not accept parcels unless they were tied up with string.
@Mack Sarnie Except in The Sound of Music the packages were brown.
@Mack Sarnie I don't think so.
There was a time when you could ship children by us mail/postal
Note for anyone trying to reload 8mm Lebel: Do not try to full length size a 8mm Lebel cartridge. The chambers are oversized and will fireform the cartridge. Full sizing will overstretch the brass and drastically reduce case life (as well as require pesky trimming). Just use the neck sizer and reserve those cartridges for their specific guns.
Is there some kind of UA-cam award for the most civil comment section? Forgotten Weapons has seriously got to be one of the best.
An armed society is a polite society.. haha
Shut the fuck up tom
A wise man does not argue with Gun Jesus.
"...logistically inferior..."
Perfect phrase, perfect description.
"That translates into my ammunition falling over."
😂😂
"Sacre bleu! Mon ammunition! Elle a fait!"
Wrapped up in paper tied up with string, this is one of Ian's favorite things!
This is the first time I've posted a comment on your show but I just have to say how much I enjoyed this video !!!! Really ! I learnt so much in just 18 minutes !! This is why a became a patron supporter!! Love the show, love the content, love the history ! Thank you Ian & team
Thanks!
I always wondered why French used giant clips for their machine guns, instead of belts.
Me too, I don´t think magazines is a good Idea on a MG and a clip is even worst.
tisFrancesfault there weren’t any metal belts. The cloth belts are quite sensitive to temperature and humidity (unlike the metal clips), the belts can be linked while the gun is firing, and when using the guns as a team one does not experience a significant loss in fire sustainability. Still the French will develop linked strips for aerial and tank use during WW1.
The 8mm Lebel has a horrible case design, which does not lend itself well to feeding, besides being a rimmed round. Still, it was the first commercially successful smokeless powder round, and this changed MANY things in WWI, including uniform color, believe it or not!-John in Texas
The funny thing is the Hotchkiss company had a single link metallic belt as an option as early as 1896 but most buyers found it too expensive to buy or produce on their own.
@@TheGearhead222 it really does continue to amaze me just how fucking HORRIBLE the 8mm lebel was. I'm not sure that there is a worse caliber out there actually adopted as the primary round for a military like the Lebel was
Oh man, really hoping you guys end up doing more ammunition videos like this. Thanks for the content.
brown paper packages tied up with string, these are a few of my favorite things
When the dog bites , when the bee stings, when I'm feeling sad.
I simply remember my favorite things.
And the I don't fell so bad.
I don't feel so bad neither.
The ball D ammo looks so elegant, almost artistic.
Great overview. More stuff like this, please.
So.....the French literally used M16 rifles in WW1. Pretty cool.
👍🤣😂😂
And won
Thank you Ian for taking something that I was ambivalent about (French bolt actions) and making it very interesting.
Burning Spork of Doom I echo this sentiment
Daniel Allan I got interested when watching The Mummy (1999). I was really interested in those WW1 era french firearms.
The movie had the 1886 Lebel rifle and 1873 Chamelot-Delivgne revolver (Brendan Fraser looked so badass dual wielding those things).
I never had an appreciation for French rifles until I started watching your videos, Ian. Thankyou for the education.
maybe cause everybody prefer looking and remembering only bad french rifle just like people only remember french loss in ww2
@@danemon8423 there’s a reason that loss gets remembered, it was pretty damn embarrassing lol
@@fort809 who lost against rice farmers?
@danemon8423 bro's been quiet since this dropped
@@danemon8423 the US and the French and the Japanese.
Thanks for the video on the French ammunition. Always looking forward to your videos that cover ammunition in more than passing detail.
Thanks ian for putting such effort in describing french firearms :) keep up the good work, as a frenchman, it teaches me much !
Thank you for putting the time into making these videos. They are well presented and informative.
Can't remember exactly when it was but those Hotchkiss feed strips (with the accompanying rounds of 8mm Lebel) were common at gun shows. And coincidentally, at the same time similar Hotchkiss strips of 7.7 Arisaka were also available. I ended up with a strip of the Arisaka ammunition, it came is some sort of hard cardboard case.
Of all the gun bloggers I have watched, you are by far the best spoken and most knowledgeable I have seen.
I love to see this kind of content on your channel. I enjoy the way you explain the 'dry' basics behind stuff like the absolut chaos the French ammunition poses.
Native english speakers trying to say something french is one of the best things to ear when you're a native french speaker, Ian will always make me giggle with his pronouciation!
Awesome video!
Great French Ammunition collection Ian!😀🔫🗼🇫🇷
Don't you mean WW1 (not 2) at around 6:00 when talking about ball D?
Anyway great vid as usual
Yes, I did.
another great video! thanks, i never new how much innovation the french were putting into their bullets.
This was very interesting and informative, thank you Ian.
While you were working through the history of the rifles I was thinking that you needed to do a video on the history of the ammo. Did not disappoint. Thanks, Ian!
Another great vid Ian! So watchable!!
That problem with 8x57 in the 7.5x58mm chamber reminds me of an article I read about 30 years ago, in Guns & Ammo, I think, about a guy who managed to chamber a round of .250 Savage in a .243 chamber and blow up his pre-64 Model 70. About a year ago I had the opportunity to pick up a very nice Ruger M77 in .250 Savage for $450 but I passed on it, because if I owned it, I'd spend the rest of my waking life worrying about accidentally chambering a .250 in my.243.
These cartridge discussions are fantastic!
Thank you very buch Iaan for this!! My dad "had" a couple of 8mm lebel berthier and never much ammo. Lately ive been hunting for ammo and didnt know anything about lebel, this video has helped me a ton!!! Thanks for pointing out PPU 8x50R lebel ammo and specs between N and D. I literally just saw 2 boxes of these at my local gun store but didnt buy them because of uncertainty. You just cleared up my confusion!
We cannot have a world leader that can count to ten backwards, and yet you comfortably share an immense amount of information without a teleprompter or cue cards. Unbelievable! I really enjoy learning from you. You are like that one teacher that you remember and or cared about from school. :)
Ian's marketing scheme for French firearms has got me all hyped up looking for a Lebel Rifle to get haha
I looked at the video name and was like 'how the hell do you make an 18.5 minute video about nothing but two rifle cartridges?'
At the end of the video I'm still glued to the screen...
Good job as always, Ian. You manage to make nearly forgotten trivia about obscure details intriguing and exciting. Hats off.
Very interesting videos, Ian . I did not know some of these details. Seriously 7.5× 54 was a excellent cartridge.
When the Ian uploads a video, and the subject isn't guns~
That's AMMORE~
As a Cartridge collector I've been hoping for Ian to do a video on cartridges!... Awesome
I really appreciate this video on cartridge development. Do you think you may do such a thing again in the future? I certainly would love more like this.
the content just gets better as Forgotten Weapons progresis. Thanks.
Interesting history behind this cartridge, had no idea it had that much development and changes.
Wow. Thanks Ian!
Excellent presentation.
Kako zanimljiv video. Svaka čast
Great info again. Thanks Ian.
Perfect Video on this kind of french cartrigde, no bad for the prononciation and impressing an American who is interested in something other than 5.56M16
Great ibfo. I didn't realize there were quite so many versions of the 8x50. The 7.5 is an excellent modern cartridge. I got bit by the MAS 49/56 bug awhile back, so now i want one. I think we can have them in Kali, although the grenade launcher sights would probably have to come off. Great round though, with very usable ballistics. Great video as always. Thank you
Not the sight. The spigot or spigot sleeve.
Eggs toast and forgotten weapons, the best way to start your day
🎶The best part of waking up🎶
Anyone else love the look of older round nosed early smokeless and black powder cartridges
Love this channel
Thank you for your videos on the Berthier rifle and this one for its ammo. I have my father's Berthier (never known it to be fired and I am 55) and just dug it out of my closet. It is a "Delaunay Belleville Mle 1907-15 (EDB 1917)" with "N" stampings. While the rifle 100% needs a cleaning I think it is intact. I removed the bolt, the firing pin and spring - they all appear to be in good order. Granted before even trying to fire a round I'll take it to a proper gunsmith so they can professionally inspect and clean it. I think I should be able to find one of those here in Texas 😉
Anyways, I got to wondering "what ammo" and this video is super awesome and I loved how you showed the Prvi Partizan ammo box ❤
I've got 100 rounds of boxer primed 7.5 MAS factory ammo and reloading dies to reload it ....... now I just need to acquire a MAS 36. Nothing weird about that, right?
Good one Ian. Keep up the WW1 stuff. Vietnam War-era and Cold War stuff appreciated too.
17:37 I think the French army kept using the 7.5 in their FRF1 for quite some times after they had the FA-MAS.
Your right but technically speaking it it was use by the gendarmerie not by the regular army
Désaleux, that's a hard one. Roughly phonetized in English : Dayzalu. Thanks for all that content as usual, higly interesting !
Why don't you pop by Belgium one of these days, FN's still running proud and there's still is a very renown arms manufacturer's school in Liège.
That and the beer, cheese and chocolate of course, but that comes without saying !
Absolutely love the 8mm lebel!
Hello very nice video ^^
Maybe you forgot to say that balle D have one major inovation : a boat tail
Superb info.
I guess the French actually had something in common with the Austrians back then; brown paper packages tied up with string were things that they both considered a favourite.
Ian-Great video as always. Didn't the French also perfect the jacketed round? Remember reading that awhile back. John in Texas
It says a lot for Ian that I don't shoot, also I'm unlikely to ever shoot a WW1 French rifle, and on top of that I'm unlikely to buy ammunition for my rifle that I don't own, and YET I can happily sit and watch an 18 minute long video about French cartridges of the late 19th / early 20th century.
Not only that, but I enjoyed it.
Ian is one of the very best commentators on UA-cam. I think I would enjoy listening to him read a laundry list or a recipe for "instant water".
BTW. I have the best recipe for instant water. It goes something like... "Take empty vessel. Fill with clean, cool, water. Season to taste then drink." My recipe sounds silly but Ian could make it epic!
Thanks for using metric too
Great post. Let's have more ammo history. Peace and thanks.
PPU, making all the fun stuff.
More videos on different ammunution types adopted by militaries around the world would be cool.
The reaserch was run by a guy named Gal Desaleux, who immediately started regretting ever taking part.
(Little bilingual bonus-joke on how your first pronunciation makes it sound like "Gal Désolé", which translates as "Gal Sorry")
Really good work as it has been on your whole channel, you always show serious research and make the presentations interesting. Every time I watch one of your videos, I end up wishing I could buy one of the firearms presented, but that would be unreasonable.
Now this is my jam
ammunition history ASMR 10/10
Very informative, Ian.
Have you done or considered a similar video on the different ammunition used by the Japanese?
I just shot our 1886 Lebel for the first time this weekend. It shoots better than almost any gun we have. 10 rounds, 100 yards, every single shot of mine inside the 8 ring after my dad shot his 10 and gave me a basic idea of where to aim. It shoots high, like every military gun we own.
Enciclopedico ed esaustivo. as usual
Several times he missed an opportunity to call the paper packages tied with string one of his favorite things.
Correct me if I'm wrong - didn't you by chance shoot "incorrect" ammo in one of your old Turkish Berthier rifle videos? It seems as if you were having trouble racking the bolt into battery.
Yes, back before I know better. :)
Nice :D
Next we know that Bannerman conversion Mosin-Nagant might have well blown up in your face (I'm glad it didn't).
How much coffee had you had or rehearsals did you do before recording this?
Great presentation but I felt like We had snorted some thing. I need a nap.
Thanks for the great info!!!!!!!!
Ian - You have any interest in .30-06 military cartridges made in France for the M1 Garands/Browning MGs we gave them? I have a large collection of various headstamps. Not well thought of ammo I have absolutely no intention of ever firing it.
I have a K11 in 7.5x55mm and a MAS 36 in 7.5x54mm. I really like 7.5x54 its fun to reload and uses the 7.62x54R crimper.
Many people say that the 7.5x54mm M1929 MAS was just an unlicensed copy of 7.5x55mm Swiss.
Just like the 7.5x57mm M1924 MAS was an unlicensed copy of 8x57mm Mauser.
Oh those clever French fellows!
@@MrReded69 will a MAS 36 chamber and shoot 7.5 x 55 Swiss? I am having the Dickens of a time trying to find 7.5x54 in a soft point to use for hunting. There is plenty of FMJ on the market right now, but nothing for hunting.
PPU factory is next town over for me so if you want i can hook you up
Tell them to start making 7.65mm French Long! :)
Tell them that it's impossible to find today in France! and impossible to import :/
hey Ian would like to see videos like this 1 for german,us,british,russian ... ammo 2 but at any point please share more of your toughts about 7mm mauser
He mentioned the 5.56 and 300 blackout problem and I ran into that. Long story short I dropped the mag out, dropped the 300 into the chamber, pulled the trigger and broke the extractor, stuck a bullet about an inch from the muzzle. Didnt blow up the gun (thank God for bull barrels) and about burned my leg with gas from the tube
I have some French .30-06 that has the groove on the head like on the 8mm Lebel
The 30 round feed strips were also used by the Hotchkiss M1909 light machine gun or "Benét Mercié" as it was called in US service. Just for the completion. ;)
A whole series of Hotchkiss-based guns used them, in eluding the US 1909, the French 1900 and 1914, the Japanese Type 92, Turkish 1922/4, etc.
Yes. Did they use the same type of strip for a different cartridge?
Great Ian. 7.5x54 is a lovely round to shoot. What got you into French rifles so deep?
Really nice to have a bit of Hotchkiss
Brown paper packages tied up with string, these are a few of my favorite things.🎶🎵🎶
Sounds like Ian is learning French :)
Gun Jesus as always answers more questions than where ever asked!
I have 2 cases of lebel ammo in hotchkiss feed strips that ive heard long ago was high pressure, before i new this i used it in a Remington 1907/15. I later found a crack in the rcvr on the bottom, ive no idea how long its been there. The gun also had the typical rem. oversized chamber. It was a sporter w shortened bbl so its stripped of the rcvr now (RIP) as soon as i saw the feed tray on your table i new the answer was coming (ball N) neck turn the shells maby? it was $42 a case
Hi, guys.
I'm a big fan of Forgotten Weapons and I'm a super-huge-mega fan of military aircraft.
I know that the French used "Vickers" machine guns on their WW1 fighters because they didn't have a better, locked breach, machine gun for synchronizing to shoot through the propeller disk. My question is... did they use the .303 British round in their fighters or use Vickers machine guns using 8mm Lebel? Either one would make sense. If they used the .303 they could use common stocks of ammo with the Brits and, if they used 8mm, they could depend on their own ammunition stores without depending on the Brits. I'll be ding-danged if I can find a definitive answer to this question and would really like to know; one way or another.
Thanks!
The confusion over "bronze" and brass is a nomenclature one. 95/5 is "Gilding Metal", 90/10 is called in the US trade
" Manufacturing Bronze" --- a clear misnomer ( no Tin in 90/10 BRASS).
In Europe, deriving from a Dutch Indies term, both 90/10 and 95/5 Alloys are called TOMBAC/K.
DocAV
It was captain Desaleux, and the 8mm Lebel balle D was the first spitzer bullet in the world.
I have some 1960’s French manufacture 30-06, which has the groove as well. Did they do that on all rifle ammo?
Dont shoot this. Cases crack.
I really wish you would speak in terms of muzzle energy in addition to bullet mass and velocity. It would make it so much easier for casual viewers like me (I watch every video, but this is my main gun related content consumption) so I don't have to do a calculation to understand the power output of a cartridge. When you say grains and the muzzle velocity I cannot compare easily to other rounds mentioned.
The "joule" is likely the preferred unit of energy.
We found a bunch of the unsued 1936 versions in our shed in France. The N stamp on the round is now clear, thanks. Lastly my idiot BIL proudly announced to all our local friends they were 303s- he got the hump when I point out his obvious mistake.
I have run into some old 8mm Lebel ammunition and when pulled apart (primers were no longer viable), the bullet had a "step or heel" of smaller diameter where it entered the case mouth. Where, in the timeline did this type fall?
Wait, does this mean we're finally getting shooting footage of an rsc 1917?
Jean Huon makes some great books I wish there would be English translations published.
Mr9Guns Jean Huon is a great writer on firearms books in France.
Privi is great if you're into older European rifles. Theyre my one source of 7.5x55 swiss, and they're very affordable.
intéressant merci
@16:07
So essentially, it would lead to "le boom"?
Will you do a video on the Hotchkiss m1914 machine gun?
Eventually, yes.
I also like to see one on the Arsenal Puteaux APX 1905 and the St. Etienne Mle 1907 machine guns, if you get your hands on some of them, because they are more of a forgotten weapon, than the Hotchkiss M 1914.