The First Modern Military Rifle: The Modele 1886 Lebel
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
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The Lebel was a truly groundbreaking development in military small arms, being the first rifle to use smokeless powder. This gave it - and in turn the French infantry - a massive advantage in range over everyone else in the world at the time. This advantage was short-lived, but the French did their best to exploit it.
French chemist Paul Vielle successfully developed his smokeless powder (“poudre B”) formula in 1884, and French ordnance spent 1885 experimenting with different calibers of small bore bullet to see what would work best. They also began looking at rifle actions to use, including specifically the Remington-Lee and the Mannlicher. However, a new Minister of War was appointed in January of 1886 and he demanded a completed prototype rifle and ammunition be completed by May 1886. This was a nearly impossibly short deadline to meet, and it meant that the Ordnance officers could not possibly develop a wholly new rifle, and instead would have to modify something already in the inventory.
The only suitable option was the Model 1884/5, a combination of the Gras bolt and Kropatschek tube magazine. The new smokeless cartridge was made by simply necking down the 11mm Gras round, and the 1884 rifle was given a new barrel in 8mm and a new dual-locking-lug bolt head to accommodate the high chamber pressure of the new powder. The result was the Lebel, and it was formally accepted in April 1887 after a relatively short period of testing. The weapon may not have been used the most advanced elements, but it was without any doubt the foremost military rifle in the world at the time, by a substantial margin.
The three main French state arsenals of St Etienne, Chatellerault, and Tulle would all tool up to produce the Lebel, and by the end of 1892 approximately 2.8 million had been produced, enough to equip the entire Army. The rifle would remain in service as France’s primary infantry rifle until World War One, would be declared obsolete in 1920, and remain in inventory and in use until the end of World War Two.
I don't even own a firearm. I do not live in a country that would even allowed the possession of anything above a shotgun. Yet i'm here at night listening to you. You are great narrator and historian. Ty,.
What country?
Thats a damn shame. Sorry you have to live with that
@@beargillium2369 Most likely India.
I live in a country that would let me own a rifle like this.......but only just.
Semi automatics are out of the question. 😢
@@ohlordy2042 fellow Canadian?
Battlefield 1 player, here. Just started using the Lebel and I was wondering what was going on with the reloading of the gun. Of course , Ian had the answer to it.
Good to see that game still lives on. Even better that it’s opened up interest for WW1 and it’s intricacies.
@@dompdompdomp I play everyday and have seen like 1 in like 3 months
@@dompdompdomp no I play public on console
@@mrman2415 because everyone else is using the op smgs
@@Randombritshguy97 there are servers where you can only use bolt action rifles and pistols, just like ww1 should be
Ian: "what are we going to put this 8mm cartridge into?"
Me: "Germans, mostly"
Nothing. Drop your rifles and run away.
@@michaelalangordon6120 The French military being cowardly is just a shit meme
The French fighting man has always been hobbled by the quality of leadership inflicted upon him. I think it's something to do with the history of French royalty.
@@vikingsoftpaw French: let's pick a leader by family name Isted of finding the best..
Typically un-fucking-grateful attitude at the French army of the 18th-20th centuries who fought against the British for American Independence. Btw, I'm English.
2.8 million and I can’t find one lol
TrinearLiangle they made like 2.8 million Lebel rifles and I can’t find one for my collection so Manet you have one you want to sell maybe?😉
i know right???
LordEvan5 come in France 🤗
Most of those in private citizen ownership are family heirloom pieces.
Most people that manage to have one keep it.
Can we take a moment and appreciate that Ian gave that entire intro lecture… in one take… without checking notes.
They don't call him Gun Jesus for nothing
It’s a French rifle. He is gun Jesus bringing the gospel of French guns.
If only they didn't rush the 8mm Lebel cartridge. I know there's always the butterfly effect to take into account, but could you imagine an RSC 1917 with rimless ammo?
TheGoldenCaulk The RSC 1918*. The 1917 was flawed, and that's why the 1918 came to be.
champimuros 17/18 same rifle product improved.
The RSC with rimless ammo = The M1 Garand (same mechanism )
Well, it's kind of half/half. Yes the 8mm Lebel was a rimmed cartridge that wasn't the most practical to feed due to its taper, but that same taper meant that it didn't have the rimlock issues you find with other rimmed rifle ammo of the time.
I guess you could say it would have broke new ground :^)
It's a rare pleasure and privilege to listen to someone who really knows what he's talking about. Thank you Ian.
I have watched and listened to many of his videos from start to finish. It's like reading a good book. Thanks again, Ian.
Such a stark difference from the germans, not a single number on any of the nuts and bolts, let alone a proof mark. How will we know those bolts can hold the stock on if they haven't been numbered and checked!?
hahaha the german war economy: bread consisting of 70 % sawdust and a main fighter with ~60 sub variants
i love this comment lmao
I have a Luger and nearly every single part has a 2 digit number that matches the last two digits of the full serial number. I even have a magazine that matches the serial.
@@stormy0307 what year was it made in?
The texan 1940
"Eight in the tube and one on the elevator and one in the hole."
- Nathaniel Dogg, circa 1890
37 minutes?!? You can really tell when Ian is passionate about the subject! Awesome video and awesome rifle. I’d love to get one of these just for the history.
Congrats, your Army has the best rifle in the world! For 2 years.....
Cause the German made a way better smokeless repeating rifle in the Gewehr 1888
Better than "congrats, your army's new standard rifle is already outdated!"
Merci !
On a révolutionné le monde de l'armement
Hurry up and wait
If I follow your logic nobody should ever introduce anything new because somebody else will improve on it anyway...
@@CalgarGTX It's one thing to introduce something, it's quite another to mass produce the prototype. The first passenger jetliner (Comet) was a disaster because they didn't know what the heck they were doing and in the end Mcdonnell Douglas and Boeing ended up making all the profits by avoiding all the serious errors of de Havilland.
So this is the gun that keeps killing me in Verdun.
Not Tannenberg, though. No one plays the Romanians and/or Bulgarians and this is common knowledge now c'mon smh my head man
@@edgarcardiff7874 THE BULGARIANS, MY PEOPLE, ARE IN A GAME? I already love Verdun, but this! Ah mah gahd!! I' buying Tannenberg.
@@GarioTheRock felt the same when verdun added the anzacs
This is why I pay 10 dollars a month 35 minutes on one rifle. Makes me want to buy one.
Do it if you find one, they are awesome!
Kyle Evans ya but good luck ever shooting it, 130 year old obsolete ammunition is probably a nightmare to find especially since it was a rimmed cartridge
PsychoLucario PPU makes it in Balle D spec. Although in limited quantity. Really not that expensive given the availability
PsychoLucario I own 34 other firearms I'll shoot it once and add it to my gun wall for display.
PPU still makes quality 8mm Lebel (S&B too I think?) About .75cents to a dollar a round, which is pretty typical of military rounds of the same vintage. Harder to find but not rare in the least. Im sure youd cut costs by more than half if you reloaded.
Ian, if you're ever travelling to France, I know some folks who could show you very extensive research and practise on the use of the Bayonet in France throughout history !
Ursus_Martinus
Is... Is that a threat or...
Absolutely not, I'd rather say it's an informal invitation !
Woo interesting...Do people practice fencing with Lebel bayonet?
Ian Gushes About French Firearms for 37 Minutes.avi
Good thing nobody forces you to watch!
Forgotten Weapons yes you do don't even lie.
r h it’s probs because you only know twi weapons like barret and desert eagle and ain’t know nothing about other weapons in the world..
Fun fact: "Good thing nobody forces you to watch!" is actually a french* phrase for "get fucked, nerd!" :) On a serious note, I personally really liked the video - it's exactly the kind of hyper-informative thing that folks like me tend to appreciate.
Well its hard to call it "French", Normally we think about French as a delicate lovers who dont like to fight and surrender no matter what.
Here we have rifle that you need to treat brutally, you need to stick dirty finger inside, it dont have any protection, its weirdly long and not pretty at all :D
French Ordnance Department: "Alright, we have the new powder formula finished, now we need to R&D the case and a new rifle to go along with it. Nobody else is doing this yet though so we have a lot of time and money on our hands. Let's start by looking into the best options out there..."
General Boulanger: I want the rifle finished and on my desk by May.
French Ordnance Department: "Sacrebleu..."
I love French military firearms history sometimes. And I love you too, France!
Nick: "Sacrebleu..." LOL!!!
Ian does a 30min video humm must be a french rifle :)
Your longer form pieces are the best.
The Lebel was *certainly* an improvement over the Gras breechloader it replaced, but it still suffered from some very severe design flaws. However, that could be said about ALL the first nitrocellulose propellant cartridge bolt actions. You needed the Lee-Metford to get to the Lee-Enfield, after all. Even the Krag, for all its problems, was a leap forward from the trapdoor Springfield.
Love using it in Hunt: Showdown, such a sexy rifle.
Yeah the marksman variant is better than the mosin
but only 15 ammo :(
@@TheYaq >he doesnt bring dual uppercuts
@@AleK0451 ... you're saying something.
@@Javlin95 yes i did
nice to see he put up the suomi kp drawing someone gave him at the varusteleka meetup
Yep, it's very cool.
Forgotten Weapons its really well done
Yes it is. I personally appreciate the effort the Ian put forth.
I've been wondering for a while now what the deal was with the weird reload animation on this gun in Battlefield 1.
Should've known it'd only be a matter of time before Gun Jesus had a video explaining it!
Great video as always, Ian
Battlefield 1 and Ian have helped me fall in love with this gun. The Lebel is a rugged looking, but still elegant gun. I want one.
Ian: "the detent prevents more than one cartridge from being spat out of the magazine"
Lebel: "I spit on you! Puh!"
When you use a rifle in Battlefield 1 and then see the Forgotten Weapons video about it...
Where TF u at?
it is my fav rifle in BF1 it is supreme to all the others
except in the sniping role in that role the Ross rifle is best but in most uses Lebel is supreme
I used the lebel almost exclusively for sniping when I played. I think before hand I used the russian lever action
I like the Lebel because holy heck it's a good weapon for sniping and is what got me in 3rd place in a match, the highest place I've ever had in battlefield 1.
@@murderousintent7838 I used the Lebel for sniping, though I used iron sights to snipe, took some lessons from Simo Hayha when I heard about him in the Winter War of 1939-40. Sniping with iron sights can be deadly, as the enemy won't see your scope glint, since you don't have a scope at all.
You forgot to mention that smokeless powder also burns cleaner, so it doesn't foul the barrel as quickly and therefore a shooter doesn't have to clean his/her gun as often. I can see why they eventually replaced this gun: it's a lot of work to shoot the thing, especially when other people can just load and shoot.
I find it neat that the Lebel’s struggles in it creation was actually only a year after John browning created his first rifle gun history is freaking cool!
"we're going to load the magazine fully." *sticks one round in the magazine* "We'll just pretend that's fully loaded"
That's what makes you realize that this loading process is a pain in the ass 🤣🤣
My surname is Lebel - I had to have one. Got mine three years ago at an auction - a rarer R35 carbine version. A blast (literally) to fire, especially with the old army surplus ammo from the Hotchkiss heavy machine gun. I now primarily use the PRVI Partizan ammo which is finally made in sufficient quantities making it usually available.
Awesome
Ok
To date still my favourite video of yours! And if I'm seeing it right, I think you liked doing this one yourself too :) .
I suppose Ian could talk about this thing for ages, he's got long episodes just on the 8mm lebel.
These videos have so much history baked into them. You can feel the class differences of the era, and the complete contempt the military leaders had for soldiers. Uneducated humans were just fodder to them. Also, the vying for power in Europe was etched in every design from each country. The competition was life and death.
I have watched more than a few of Ian's videos, and I consider this to be one of the best. It's everything you ever wanted to know on the subject. Questions that arise as you watch, answered. A geek- fest, but in the best possible way. Obviously, it's French lol.
I'd love to see some side-by-side 1890s rifle comparisons. Lebel, Berthier, Gewehr 88, Mauser 1889, Krag 1889, Krag 1892, Mosin-Nagant M1891, Carcano M1891. Perhaps a shooting test to see which is best?
...or just save time and give the prize to the Lee-Enfield?
@@PaulP999 prize for most overrated
@@sadfrog5787 you're joking right.
Ce fusils à egalement été fait pour les enfants de 10 à 12ans.
Suite à la défaite de 1870 les écoles préparaient les enfants à la revanche.
En France on appelait cela les "bataillons scolaires" il s'agit d'un fusils lebel plus petit, avec des dimensions pour enfant et une baïonnette en bois.
Ils étaient chambré en calibre 6mm Flobert.
J'en possède un de 1908 je peux vous envoyer des photos.
Votre travail est toujours de très grande qualité. Merc beaucoup
"Alacrity" - brisk and cheerful readiness. New word of the day for me. thanks.
Good word, but he's not using it correctly. I think Ian was looking for either "smartly" or perhaps "firmly".
Best description I have read on operating the Lebel bolt/magazine. Thank you.
The loading and then cycling makes sense, because it’s a similar principle to running a semi auto shotgun and “ghost loading” it. Thanks for the info.
To me it looks like it reads "AVRIL" (April) on the stock!
Could be.
Poisson d'Avril!
Yes in French the word "Avril" is the English "April", probably because of our many words that we have in common since the Hastings's battle
Yes definitely AVRIL
I actually just got my first lebel 2 days ago!!
How much did you pay for it?
@@draconovic6952 yes
@@dans2971 on a 3 yr old comment lol. No regrets.
@@draconovic6952 sorry for not replying 9-0-0 with bayonet. 1887 MAC
The Lebel revisited, at last.
Thanks, Ian.
My birthday and then a video about one of my favorite rifles.
A MAC ty
It's super late but happy birthday fellow old firearm enthusiast.
Don’t know if you check back on these videos. But this is literally perfect for DND guns. Upgraded kits galore and old school enough to fit the setting
What an awesome piece of French Heritage! Keep up the great videos!!
Any chance you could do a video on the Kropatschek 1886? The internet is surprisingly devoid of useful information on it. I've got one myself, but only know a little about it. Thanks Ian, you're awesome!
Tactical Baggett rifle
Jonathan Wentworth reiffel*
Baguette*
This is good, your videos on generally forgotten but still famous rifles are best
Very informative video. Have been looking for a Lebel for years, finally found one. It has a Chatellerault receiver and was re-barreled in 1916, in the middle of WW1. It has a bullet hole through the butt stock...It has been repaired, but is still visible. The bolt is mismatched, but everything else matches though. Feels good to finally own a Lebel.
A couple years ago we got my dad a Lebel for his birthday. Without a word, he ran upstairs, grabbed his kit and proceeded to disassemble it. Yup. He loved it.
6:00 "This cartridge would handicap the French for decades." - sounds normal. We need it fast, we don't care if it is any good, just build it, you have 4 months. SMH.
Was the m14 in the same vain? Or was it the m16
Superb comment, absolutely correct!
D - Neither. Probably the closest thing is the M249 Saw.
" "This cartridge would handicap the French for decades." - sounds normal. We need it fast, we don't care if it is any good, just build it, you have 4 months. SMH."
"
there were complicated times in France my dude, something you don't know may be. Still a "réussite" regarding this weapon whatever you say.
Better than being stuck with a single shot black powder rifle in a time when war could break out for any reason with one of the neighbors..
You say: "there's a groove right here". I have it on good authority that the groove is in fact, in the heart...
Formidable mon ami.
I actually like the big rimmed Lebel cartridge. I made a barrel to fit on a H&R handi rifle by lathe turning a take off barrel from a 8 mm Mauser into a barrel liner that was epoxied into a 20 ga. shotgun barrel. I made a D bit chamber reamer to match the 8 x 50 Lebel cartridge and with a 4 x scope mounted I have taken deer and hogs with this rifle and it is very accurate. The Lebel is pretty much the equal to the 8x 57 Mauser when chambered in a strong action and it makes a great cartridge for a single shot rifle due to its large rim. I have dozens of handi rifle barrels chambered in cartridges never made by the factory but so do many others. I have never heard of anyone else making one in the Lebel cartridge. I just like the short fat Lebel !
Another fascinating in depth firearms history video brilliantly presented by Ian. Only the French could design such a complicated rifle. Keep them coming :-D.
These long videos are my favorite, you get so much more of an understanding of every little piece and part of these guns.
I get a kick out of Ian’s enthusiasm for this. It’s awesome to watch
"Here's a Kropatschek I prepared earlier..."
I'm an everyday viewer and I absolutely love these in depth videos! Great information and very watchable. Keep it up Ian!
Belle vidéo. Sûrement la première arme moderne au monde. On reconnaît la ligne du chassepot déjà très en avance.
french doctrine also use the button in front of the trigger guard. They will load 8 cartriges in the tube, them disable the elevator and load individual round until the sergeant sayed to activate the elevator and they will have 9 round ready to be fire in the combat situation. If soldier were marching to the battlefield they would load 8 in the mag flig the switch and close the bolt. Sorry for my english again
Thank you Ian ! If you ever review the 1866 Chassepot, don't do Wikipedia mistake : The Chassepot was intended to replaced Muzzle-Loading rifled muskets and not the breechloading Tabatières muskets. The Tabatières rifled were a "complement" to the Chassepot (as the Remington Rolling Block was to the Lebel in 1914-1918).
What perfect timing! I was searching your video archives yesterday thinking (no lie!) to myself "I hope Ian does a video on the French Lebel rifle from the 19th century." And then this video shows up the next day. There is something to be said for ESP lol. I was at a gun shop about 2 years ago and saw a pretty well worn Lebel on the floor. They were asking $700. I love old military bolt action rifle, but because I knew nothing of the rifle I decided to forego the purchase for fear I might be getting ripped off on the price.
Some M1886-93 Lebels, $300-500 range at a recent large gun show, there were several, and at least 2 of them were still there at end of show. Typical of many current shows, lots of Yugo Mausers and Moisen-Nagants, all very reasonable.
Basically me , was using the shit out of the Lebel in BF1 and wanted to see a real life video on one.
These rifles are so fascinating
Your encyclopedic knowledge of firearms is astounding. French manufacturing engineering and expertise, often, is undervalued in comparison with the English and German, for some reason. But it's equal to both of them.
Well ı think British and Germans had better infantry equipments than French.
So you can ghost load this rifle
i've been waiting for this video a long time
For everyone stuck on "Avril". I'm amazed how much information Ian is able to give us over 30 min without a script
Went to a gun show with my friend who’s dream gun was a lebel. We found some ammo and he found a rifle on layaway. Putting this here because this video made him go crazy for it.
A 'friend of a friend' of a very old acquaintance I once knew, stole one of these rifles, complete with bayonet, from a Prisoner of War camp here in England in 1940 (they had been taken off the Vichy navy). He stored and hid the rifle and bayonet with oil cloth. My friend knows where it is hid, but he dare not try and retrieve it. The rifle and bayonet is, no doubt, worth some money. However, it is a mandatory five year prison term here in the UK for mere possession of a firearm. Dang.
Maybe give it away to a museum ?
@@CalgarGTX he'd still get that 5yrs in prison.
The heist of a lifetime
What a stupid law. Not really better here in Germany, however.
'Merica....fuxk yeah!
I enjoyed this one a lot. I know the more obscure stuff is the real focus of the channel, but I absolutely love these longer presentations on the standard issue rifles.
The 8 mm LaBelle round is a great round first rifle ever bought cost me $35 it came back from Vietnam it was made in Cincinnati for the French they failed at part of the order to make it with interchangeable parts it was a tack driver I'd own another one in a Flash thanks for getting more detail about this Innovative ammunition
Kinda crazy how we tend to say that progress comes faster the more developed something is, but these guns went into service and went completely obsolete just a couple years later, while we still have some weapons in service that where made 30 years ago and they're still not being replaced. The advances made in firearms between 1860 and 1900 where really amazing.
I feel bad for the gun, even though it did phenomenally. What could we have gotten if they were left to work as long as possible? Would it be better or worse than it is now? It left me to wonder personally, but I could be a weirdo for it.
I'm pretty sure the month on that military ownership pressing reads 'AVRIL' or April.
And as always thanks for the great and informative video. :)
Mika Koskimies ok so according to UA-cam, this comment was posted 4 days ago but the video came out 5seconds ago. *LOGIC*
That Shooting Guy or the guy is a patreon supporter
Patreon perk:
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$20 or more per month
In order to maintain a video every day, I do a lot of advance scheduling of videos to cover times when I am traveling or filming (or sleeping). As a Patron at this level, you will get a private link to each video when it is complete and uploaded - typically a week before it publishes and sometimes a month before. (Plus everything for lower levels)"
Mika Koskimies hmmmmm, you just never know do you.......
That Shooting Guy its a pretty solid guess that doesnt need a dumb comment every video
This guy knows more about antique weapons than anyone on UA-cam....
I love the way Ian says “By *emphatically* cycling the bolt.”
Need a glass of French wine.
FRANCE INTENSIFIES
One of my favorite rifles, the design intrigues me.
I feel like Dreyse and Chassepot really kick started a whole new generation of firearms. Especially after Chassepot took the Dreyse bolt action and bettered it in the 60s.
I love how France uses the first revolutionary new ammunition, and falls behind in the end because others could do it better, the same with their tank designs.
sounds like they have the people and resources, it just the government keeps rushing things.
As I watch this video I’m reloading ammunition for my Swiss Vetterli rifles, one of the many front line infantry rifle types that were instantly rendered obsolete by the Lebel.
Nice little sneaky picture of Suomi KP31 smg just chilling there in the backround.
French with smokeless powder sounds like USA with nukes
Louis! Get over here! We're fighting a war!
Louis: Can't I'm updating my gun
1886: cool new rifle I guess
1890s: what a dogshit rifle you got there
25:09 I just a shot with a lebel for the first time in my life and alacrity really is the correct adjective to describe how you have to operate this thing
Another well presented, info rich video. Enjoyed that.
The impatience that is bred from politicians grinds my gears. Almost as badly as grinding gears.
There reaches a point with most tube magazine rifles in combat where high skilled single shot feeding is far, far faster than trying to keep the magazine operating. Even here, the superior bolt action designs of the Mauser and Enfield are better if one needs to feed rounds single shot.
Enjoyed the heck out of this one Ian! Such a cool history!
I own a Mannlicher 1895 8x56R, was in a pawn shop that had a box of 8x56R, well it wasn't. It was a box of 8mm lebel mis labeled. Luckily my uncle owns a 1886 lebel.
I unlocked this on battlefield one last night. Assumed it was stripper clip fed then i went to reload in game and to my surprise it started feeding cartridges like a model 1887. My first thought was that's new then I thought how the hell does that thing not explode. I thought for a minute and said to myself gun Jesus will know. Thanks Ian.
That's a sexy piece of iron
I just now noticed how similar the Mosin action is to the Lebel.
I jus wanna thank Othias and Mae for teaching me all about the Kropatschek. I knew about the tube mag before but not much else before watching their Kropatschek videos. Two videos around three hours total. Lil long but worth it. Especially when learning about the Lebel Mle 1886. I think it is much more than a smokeless Kropatschek. Cool gun.
Decided to see this gun when crytek implemented it in hunt showdown, and since this is the first place I go to check out guns , thanks for the education,
Revanchism is a hell of a drug.
Patrick Link and boulanger was on it.
The French are fantastic engineers!-Pre-stressed concrete, front wheel drive and smokeless powder are just some of the many cutting edge technologies that they developed! Their small arms history, however, can be spotty, just like many American designs, IMHO. The FAMAS "Bugler" suffered case head separations , even though it was an early military bull pup design. I realize that the Soviet arsenals competed with each other, but still, they have come out with some of the most reliable and practical small arms technologies that I have researched and (sometimes) own:)-John in Texas
You can add first heart transplant, the very first laser and most important, even if our soldiers may not always have the best weapons, at least their rations are seriously tasty :D
Great info. I've wanted to know more about the Lebel rifle and cartridge for a long time. You do a great job on these videos in general, and this one specifically. Thanks for providing such professionally produced video.