The Sonic Fanbase PROBLEM...
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- New game? more toxicity! The Sonic fanbase has a repeating cycle of discussion whenever we get close to a new game, so I wanted to make a follow up to my previous video on the topic to tackle this new wave of counter criticism.
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Credit to @Dylonic for the thumbnail art - Ігри
I don't think saying "It looks like Sonic Forces" and dipping is really criticism at all. If he said something like "I don't like how these levels look" or something to that effect, the majority of people probably wouldn't care much. It's all about how you word things.
Doesn't justify others being rude and pissy
@@hype5456 Doesn't justify him being pissy either!
sonic forces is so good too
Lowkey though, Matthasnocuts has the biggest PTSD towards Forces. He got burned so badly by Forces that he can’t see that Shadow Generations clearly won’t be like that game. He lost his trust in SEGA and Sonic Team that unconsciously, he is biased against Shadow Generations. As someone who has watched Sam Procrastinates’ livestreams covering this game with the various footage from Summer Game Fest, I can confirm that it was inspired by Dream Team. There’s literally a room in the Space Colony Ark level that proves this. Plus, the level is around 5 minutes long. That’s way more than Forces’ levels. You said in the video that it’s okay for me to call out opinions based on false information, and that’s exactly what I’m doing here. If you’ve seen the various Summer Game Fest gameplay on Shadow Generations, then you should know that it 100% doesn’t have Forces’ level design philosophy in the slightest. Even though the key level designer of Forces is working on Shadow Generations, he’s clearly learned from his mistakes.
Bumping this ^
Also the gameplay we've seen of Shadow Gens so far has very clear variety in stage pathways, skill expression and other things; and seemingly very little gameplay automation - all very different from Forces.
I agree. From the gameplay of the ARK level we saw in the demo, it clearly seems better: there are multiple paths on various occasions, the stage has a good length (forces levels were usually less than a minute to 1/2 mins at max, while the ARK level is round 4 to 6 mins depending on your skill), there's less automation, the UI and menus have more personality and effort put into them in Shadow gens and the animations are better and more expensive.
You can't get PTSD from a child's game. It's not scary or anything. 🤣
The original sonic team that worked on unleashed and gens are back and working on shadow gens
@@Ibalistic_hedgeso that is why it’s soo good 🤣🤣
Okay, but saying “Looks like Sonic Forces” isn’t very good criticism. I know people are limited on twitter but there definitely is a better word choice he could’ve used that wouldn’t have sparked so much outrage.
Ikr, besides it doesn’t looks like Sonic Forces at all, there is so much different things
This warrants getting pissy and angry over? fuck that dude, poorly worded or not, no one just sharing their offhanded thoughts deserves that.
The main issue here is that people need to stop caring about everything people say especially something as inconsequencial as fucking Shadow Gens
Poorly worded or not, it doesn't deserve the reaction that it got.
Better question is: what caused the toxicity in the first place? It's more than people just complaining for no reason other than to complain.
Good Q
I'm guessing the reason behind it was 2010s and how it affected Sonic and the community in general. The 2010s, from what I heard, was a rough year for Sonic in general and that the community was bullied for liking Sonic. Which is why people are so jumpy and overly defensive against UA-camrs trying to critique anything Sonic-related.
Sonic Heroes. Not saying it was a bad game, but it was the one that started this spiral into madness. People hated it for being "too kiddy", which I think Sega admitted was intention to appeal to younger gamers. Then Shadow 05, Sonic 06, Secret Rings, and the two good Dark Age games just made everything worse. Then the 2010s happened and people hated that era for the reason they initially had issues with Heroes.
@@espurrseyes42 Funny thing about Heroes is that very game is what made me start questioning things about Sonic fanbase it self. It was start of my love/hate relationship with the fanbase.
The inconsistent quality of the franchise; different play styles, clashing portrayal of the main character and tone
My issue is that Sonic fans tend to be way over critical over every little thing. It was easy to tell that the first gameplay was an early build and still the fanbase kept the narrative that Frontiers redeemed itself. This fanbase is hypercritical.
Don't harass people though. Nobody deserves that.
Idk when frontiers looks how it did ,and how it looks currently it’s not hard to see the flaws and why people don’t think the game looks very good 😭
Not only that, but they also do a lot of blind praising. Just as they ignore the good to hyper fixate on the bad for certain games, the also ignore the bad to hyper fixate on the good for other games.
You can have opinions, but the more polarizing it is, the less people will agree with you. You have to let go of a lot of bias and feelings in order to have proper discussions. If you keep using feelings as a mean to prefer some and not others, it's going to hurt a lot more when others disagree, causing you to refute any and all critisism to avoid such.
Well tbf the initial gameplay of Frontiers didn't showcase much interactivity with anything, just looked like a tech demo.
Obviously now at full release, we know that isn't the case, but the initial showcase ran on a previous build that lacked the assets we can interact with today, worsening the watch experience.
Have you considered that the things Matt shared on his socials aren't all the same as the things he may have shared with you in convo with him?
If he aired well thought-out, elaborated criticisms and concerns with you; that's great. But that's not the kinda stuff he's been posting; even the Tweets you've shown in defence of Matt aren't actually painting a picture of thought-out criticism; it looks like hasty conclusions and throwing shade.
"It looks like Forces" is not a critique. It's only a statement. A critique is a detailed analysis of something. I doubt that people are upset at Matt en masse for real critiques, but maybe they're upset for his ""critiques"". And even then, his opinions themselves aren't the problem most people have; it's how he's sharing them.
One more thing: What toxic positivity are you seeing on Sonic fanbase social media? We *just* got out of the mess that was the crazy Sonic hate trend that lasted for nearly a decade. Where have you been?
First of all, Matt has shared more criticisms of the level design on his socials than just it looks like forces, he's talked about the alternate paths being short and diverting back to the main path within seconds much like the alternate paths in forces. Even before the main tweet that caused drama he's always maintained it was the level design he has issues with yet countless people were trying to reply to him with the different qtes in the game, ones that he literally said look cool before (and also forces has these same kinds of mid level qtes but I digress). Either that or it's excuses like "it's just a tutorial level". I'm just wondering why it's such a big deal for these people that matt doesn't think shadow generations is going to be good. As for your other point, a decade of your favorite UA-camrs clowning on sonic sometimes doesn't give anyone the right to harass someone for not being positive. I can't tell you how many rude and obnoxious comments I've received for explaining in detail why I dislike sonic frontiers.
@@Daviron plenty of sonic games even before forces has had paths diverting back to the main path, not all of them mind you, but i can't recount certain paths in green hill act 1 being necessary, or emerald coast
also there were paths that branched to their own sections, if he saw that at all
@@Daviron 1. noone in this video has been harassing you or being toxic over frontiers, talk about blowing things out of proportion. 2. if people are harassing you or being toxic, ever heard the phrase ignore them, don't give them the time of day, and take a break from the internet? I'm not involved in the sonic internet fandom like you are, I stay out of it and am healthier and happier because of it, but people like you, that start stuff with fans online and then act like everyone is being toxic or harassing you, are part of the problem of why the sonic internet fandom is as bad as it is. so again, just ignore them and don't give them the time of day, and or take a break from the internet.
My problem with what he said is that mfers are gonna start being parrots and repeat something that is just non-sense, saying that "it looks like forces" gotta be the most unfair piece of criticism I've ever seen to this game, it's straight up being disingenuous to say stuff like that without clarifying what you're saying to just try to make the blow seem softer by saying "imma give it a shot still" is the greatest sign that you don't believe the words that come out of your own mouth, passive aggressive type of comment. And saying that "the criticism is made from a place of love, with the hope that the series is successful" is the biggest damn lie I've ever heard.
And all it has really done is make ppl who like Shadow Generations question if the criticisms and hatred leveled at Forces is justified or even true in the first place. Now everyone I speak to in comments have been saying the things I've been saying for 7 years now. "Why is linearity inherently a bad thing?", "Aren't beloved Sonic games like Colors, Generations, and even Adventure 2 also very linear?", "A lot of these things people complain about are minor nitpicks and personal opinions/gripes at best", etc.
Congratulations Matt, you've essentially got a good amount of the community defending and reevaluating Sonic Forces. Good job 👍
Eeeeexactamundo, hitting the nail on the head here. So glad we still have at least some sensible people in this community.
@@DSmith3279 Why is re-evaluating Forces inherently a bad thing? He only said that because it's the easiest way to describe something, comparison of what everyone already knows. And while yes the simple reference to a game like Forces will immediately start arguments, he's not responsible for said arguments. He himself is aware of what he said will do, hence why he's not bothering to argue. He's stated his opinion, and that's he really needs to do. He never instigated any of this, it's literally the cause of going against the norm. Even if he didn't compare it to Forces, there would still be a sizable amount of people going after him simply because he doesn't like Shadow Generations.
@@sikosonix901 because describing it like that is disingenuous, why not articulate what exactly you don't like about it instead of waiting to make a video about the thing to elaborate? Just saying shi to start discourse for no reason, so now you have dudes that have no trust in sega making the most senseless bits of "criticism" you've ever seen, parroting what he said, being cocerned about stuff that doesn't matter, being unfair with the game the same way everyone was being unfair with sonic games in the 2010's when you have followers that can easily believe the words you say, you have a lot more responsibility on your hands than you'd think, everyone that actually is pleasantly surprised with the game now has to do damage control so people that don't have an opinion on it yet doesn't land on the other side and start hating on it.
@@ThemightyTelevision he did do so. He just wanted o get his thoughts out quickly. Just because he has a following, doesn't mean he's responsible for thrit actions. He never said "it's linear, like Forces, therefore bad". Why are you trying to blame him for things other people are saying. His take is not as simple as some people make it out to be. And also, I can assure you he definitely wants the series to succeed, otherwise he would not be a Sonic content creator.
I am gonna disagree hardly in the part that there is a majority of toxic positivity, because specially when superstars released, anyone feeling happy with the game got called a mediocrity enjoyer, and people are still getting attacked by actually looking forward to the game, both sides are as prevalent as ever its just that we get different experiences
Fax. I personally like Superstars and I can't count the amount of people that said I had a wrong opinion.
@@Tfprime84 We are on the same team man
Straight up False, Superstars was the rare exception where there were a lot more negative opinions but the Majority of the Fanbase leans towards Toxic Positivity. Frontiers and SxS Gens Proves it.
@@Terminal_Apotos i dont think so, as i stated it all comes down to personal experience, i saw people even insult or block others just because they did either 1 of these 3:
Like Sonic Frontiers
Like Superstars
Look Forward to SxS Gens
But it is true that toxic positivity is REALLY prevalent in the sonic community, as i said both are prevalent but some people see more of one side than the other
Edit: i actually say this because it happened to me and a few others i saw, but yeah, overall we shouldnt let this type of people get to others, if you like or dislike something is okay, and we should always give fair criticism of the products we recieve, while also aknowledging the things said product got right
I liked Superstars too, lots of people did. And yeah anyone who's seen liking it is labeled as "accepting mediocrity" and "you're the reason why this franchise will stay sucking" stuff like that. To even insinuate that toxic positivity is the main issue with this fanbase is hilarious, it completely skews the real problem.
I know there's toxicity within the fan base, but can we all just take a moment and appreciate how awesome THAT moment in Speed Highway looks in Generations! Seriously, I just juiced my pants!
It's not that Matt has a wrong opinion, but calling forces level design to SXSG is confusing more than anything no one can understand what he means because we don't agree on what forces level design means so tldr it's basically if Matt is called the level design blue when what everyone is seeing is purple. Misunderstanding is THE toxic trait of the fanbase
Yeah every game have some linear straight lines. Gameplay perspective is the same. Is just the style
Overall just ignore the opinions
If it doesn't have a drift, barely uses quick steps and has alternate paths which join back together after a few seconds, it's Forces level design.
@@anthonyyawtwumasimensah197Forces level design wasn’t just that, it didn’t have meaningful alternatives pathway, it was extremely boring to the point that besides boosting, there was almost nothing else to do, and it wasn’t creative at all. So far, SXSG doesn’t do that, it’s quite the opposite imo, it looks great
@@dotproduct335 So basically Sonic Forces with more gimmicks. Not bad but isn't good either.
@@anthonyyawtwumasimensah197So you didn't listen to what he said.
The "Looks like Sonic Forces" tweet wasn't constructive criticism or just sharing an unfavorable opinion.
It reads as overtly passive aggressive (at best) and the reaction it got was predictable.
Harassment isn't acceptable, but everyone already knows that. Labeling this as a "community problem" is just really melodramatic.
How does the dude who didn't spend any time critically reading his own words before hitting "post" deserve infinite charitablity?
ngl... ppl care too much about what others think and say. Some ppl need to legit get a life lol.
On god
And over fictional hedgehogs and other talking animals who stop giant bald man with funny mustache out of all things lol.
They have autism most of em let's be real.
I couldn’t agree more bro
I agree and this is go about every topic like the example I use Taylor Swift or Dream but that's a different conversation.
Fandom culture in general breeds toxicity
Tell me about it. Pokémon fans have reduced me to a shell of a human being in that regard.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sonic fans are impossible to please. No matter how good a game get's they'll always have a problem with it. They will keep on with the nonsensical hate. Sonic team could release a game tomorrow, It could get a 100% metascore on Metacritic and could be regarded as a masterpiece and Sonic fans will still say it's bad. They aren't actually fans of sonic, they are haters who disguise themselves as fans.
After just watching chaomix's video
I think this is a hold over from the negative/ironic "sonic was always bad" times.
I think its made certain people in the community really really defensive. Me included admittedly at times.
Now everybodys sort of on watch to see who the next sonic hater is.
I also think the hyperfixated people who point out very very minor things in a tweet don't help. Even if they're not trying to be harsh or anything.
A youtuber I constantly disagree with is premydaremy. But I don't harass him or call him names, I just question what led him to think that way and move on with my life
Out of all the videos about Shadow Generations' level design, and I have seen quite a few, you are the first person I've seen who mentioned Matthasnocuts. I literally only clicked on the video because I was surprised he said that. I think you're bringing in more toxicity than the rest of the fandom is.
How is he doing that exactly ?
@@malikpierre-louis3343 If I'm reading the comment correctly, they're saying the response to the Matt guy's tweet wasn't as harsh/broad as this video implies it was, and this video will only create more unnecessary drama/"toxicity".
@@lizdevine2525 I guess that is a good explanation but still the guy could have made it more clear.
@@malikpierre-louis3343 Liz is correct. Do you want to suggest how I could make that more clear?
Yeah, no, Matt very much deserved this, especially after his “apology”
People aren't mad at mat because he is dissapointed , he has the right and no one can change that. What they are mad about is him just jumping the gun and saying its just "sonic forces" once he saw a straight line for a split second, the problem here is that his "criticism" isn't very, idk what's the best way to say it but, "convincing". It wasn't constructive and didn't elaborate at all.
What prob makes ppl even more confused is that the gameplay for the tutorial level game out and has a good amount of branching paths and open spaces, so basically saying it's Forces 2 doesn't make sense since it had like 1 branching path every 5 levels. Like you said he's allowed to be negative, but his opinion doesn't really have a valid base to it, if that makes sense.
@@Tfprime84 every opinion is valid. It's all completely subjective.
@@Chadzilla_the_Keyblade_welder
No. If the foundation of your opinion isn't valid, then neither is the opinion. If your opinion is that Shadow Generations is built like Forces, and all you're going off is a showcasing of the FIRST level, which goes on for a decent amount of time and has a good amount of branching paths compared to ANY Modern Sonic level in Forces, then your opinion is wrong.
@@espurrseyes42 Again, Subjective opinion.
"It doesn't matter who is wrong and who is right."
@@Chadzilla_the_Keyblade_welder I’m not saying people can’t have opinions. It’s just that Matt made his opinion from misconceptions and stuff that isn’t really true. That’s what confuses people about Matt’s stance on the game
Really hate these kinds of videos, a big reason why this fanbase stays in the shit hole is because you got people pulling stuff like this completely skewing the problem with it. If you're really about to say that the majority of the Sonic fanbase is "toxic positivity" then you know nothing about it or haven't been in it very long. I swear anyone's positive about anything now and calls out people's "criticism" that isn't even criticism y'all just label it as such so no ones dares to question it are also labeled as being "toxicly positive."
I clearly say in the video that this is a MINORITY in the franchise lmao if you're gonna say smth like this at least watch the video all the way through.
@@Daviron I did lol and yet you still act like it is the majority. You think I just comment without watching videos? With a title like "The Sonic fanbase problem" and trying to defend a guy who rightfully got called out for his "criticism" as if THAT'S the big issue with it. That is FAR from its main problem.
@@chrange9714Criticism is the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes.
What Matthasnocuts said fails squarely into a criticism, it's you who doesn't understand the definition.
@@anthonyyawtwumasimensah197 What Matthasnocuts said doesn't even come CLOSE to criticism and we are in big trouble if people really think like you do labeling stuff like that as "criticism." Criticism is critiquing something that's a genuine problem with something else to improve it. His "criticism" is based on nothing, he's been proven wrong time and again with people comparing gameplay and those who've actually played it. But no, we have people like you and Daviron shilling for this guy because oh no "you can't take criticism, you're spreading toxic positivity! How dare you question what he says even though his claims are baseless and just stirr up unnecessary trouble!" Oh I understand the definition of criticism perfectly well thank you, people like you make me sick.
@@chrange9714bro i’ve read all your comments and everything you’ve said has been spot on. “toxic positivity” has never been a problem in the sonic fanbase literally ever. what fans deem as “toxic positivity” is literally just a fan being excited for a new release.
its just strange to me that a community that prides itself in acceptance and diversity constantly berates people for having different opinions and perspectives
Those who preach being the most tolerant are in fact, the most intolerant.
I gotta be honest here, nothing against Matt or Sonic x shadow but more about the nature of opinions. Opinions don’t make you invulnerable to criticism, after all there are genuine bad opinions out there, anyone has the right to voice their agreements or disagreement to someone’s opinion as long as it comes from good faith. Again, having an opinion doesn’t give you the right to not be criticized
obviously there are some opinions that can be criticized, but not being excited for a new sonic game isn't really important at all. Matt isn't an official reviewer and his takes aren't going to impact the games reception or sales so the reaction he's getting feels unwarranted
@@Daviron again my comment wasn’t directed to Matt but instead the nature of opinions how they can still be criticized. Also in the subject of Matt, yes he is not a “official reviewer” but he has a platform with almost 50k subscribers who averages 20-30k views per video so he’s voice does reach a portion of the community, don’t misunderstand me here, he doesn’t own anything to the community and he is entitled to his opinion, but with that viewership he will eventually bring some bad people who are toxic.
@@rosegiogio9255 If you post/release/do something publicly, then it WILL be criticized, both constructively and otherwise. You can either accept that, post your opinion publicly and move forward, or you can get upset when people critique it (unjustly or otherwise), respond to that by accusing them of things like "toxic positivity" and such, in which case you will alienate a lot more people than just what your initial opinion did due to the fact that you will make it known you have skin thinner than wet tissue paper.
Ngl, the community arguing about anything in the series sounds like a normal monday at the office for them
But real talk, people are allowed to have their own opinions, but harrassing them about said opinions ain't right
When it comes to the defending of what Matt says, he can have his own opinion. If people are being disrespectful that isn’t a good thing, but I also want to say you can’t just say something and not expect others to say something back. Especially when you know, (which he did) that he has the unpopular opinion. People are gonna talk. And like I said if they’re going out of their way to be malicious, then yes it’s bad but outside of that, just like how we say it when we’re critiquing things “that’s my opinion” this is also the opinion of others that you’re now hearing and it doesn’t align with you. And a big piece of the pushback is coming from the fact that we now have seen more of the game. People blatantly just disagree with what he said. I guess I just look at things a little different when it comes to these situations. Like I said, he can think of whatever he thinks but he also has a community of people. Wrong or right things are gonna play out differently on a whole other scale for him. Everybody’s gonna let him know
sonic fans have opinions that are as consistent as my grades
I honestly think videos like these are part of the problem. It’s a social media platform, people ARE going to debate against an opinion they don’t agree with. Especially since we’ve seen the full first stage to go off of, by competent players no less, instead of spliced b-roll.
Of course there are bad eggs but this is quite literally not a “you must agree with me and think the game is good” it’s just arguing against a critique that at its base is shallow and surface level.
For me, in order for the franchise to be good again, it's to not hire comic writers and just hire writers who know how Sonic works.
It worked best for Unleahsed/Black Knight.
Ian Flynn, the comic writer you're referring to does know how Sonic works.
Ian Flynn is basically one of the only people that is actually invested in Sonic writing. The fanbase is genuinely toxic for the amount of times Ian Flynn is criticized for not getting the characters despite working on the franchise for a long time and not getting endless rants from their time.
@@Sydney_Angelyt
No, he really doesn't.
@felixdaniels37yes, he does
I've started to realize recently that a lot of the toxic positivity stemmed from a place of trauma from the early to mid-2010s, where a lot of the community was bullied for enjoying Sonic or the more recent Sonic games. The fanbase more or less went into defense mode around the time Frontiers was announced. I liken it to wartime laws and how certain civil liberties are suspended in the U.S. or something like that. While physically we have moved out of that terrible era, it's tough to stop being so paranoid that most of the criticism is coming from a place of bad faith after having the deflectors up for so long (the recent relook at 2010s UA-camrs and gaming journalism pretty much prove this). Sonic discussion has slowly become more and more clean as of late, it's just a matter of time before nuance takes hold again. Great video on the topic, keep it up! Discussion like this is what allows the community to continue to move into a healthy direction!
i think that's a problem in of itself if people got bullied for liking sonic, and we should try to stop that
There are actually a couple small sonic community discord servers I love because It’s actually possible to hear someone else’s side of the story.
The toxicity isn’t very high. We can have nuanced discussions about things and it honestly feels pretty good.
Twitter fucking sucks no matter the fanbase
There are also parts of Unleashed and Generations that "look like Forces" so it's not a very good critique. For example, the end of Green Hill Act 2. After you run through the giant loop or break the bridge, you hold boost in a straight line for 5 seconds, then a ramp, then you hold forward for another 5-7 seconds to get to the end.
Or in Windmill Isle Act 2 in Unleashed, there is a section in the middle of the level where you're in 3D and all you do is stay on the rail, switch to the other, then continue on for several seconds in a straight line until you hit a bounce pad, then go back on the rails for another straight line with one spike bed to dodge.
That's just something that happens with the Boost formula. Shadow Generations is very different from Forces because of how many branching paths there are and open areas as well within the levels, as well as the length being pretty meaty.
Just because there's a straight line for a few moments, doesn't mean it''s Forces.
All the dislikes are people who were called out.
You look like Sonic Forces level design
You look like Sonic Forces level deisgn
It's okay to criticize something you don't like, but it's not okay to harass them. I was angry that Arlo got bullied for not liking the Sonic 2 movie, but I was truly disgusted that Jebzone received a cruel photo for making a joke about Sonic. It seems like Twitter is becoming 4chan. A racing game fan mocked me on Twitter because he didn't like my UA-cam comments. It breaks my heart to think that DustinEden was harassed by Xbox Fanboys when he criticized Forza Motorsports. There are a ton of nasty console fanboys on Twitter.
They need to touch grass.
This toxic side of the fandom sucks hard.
I remember the first time I noticed it, it was with BennetTheSage and that he never liked the Evangelion franchise.
yeah, sometimes people just talk negatively for simple not deep reasons, it's twitter, people love posting not deep thought tweets for the lols to look smug. I'm not going to pretend that a popular sonic video maker saying something negative about a Sonic thing is the end all be all indicator of quality when I have my own judgments. I fell for that with Sonic Superstars, the base game itself rocks! Trip is quite a trip tho... and the final boss why???
As someone who is highly critical of the sonic franchise as of current, I will say Matts criticism of SXSG is either misguided or in bad faith. I don’t think he has malicious intent, I enjoy his videos and think he offers a fresh perspective in a lot of his videos. However, I do recall him saying SXSG looks like forces level design over a 2 second clip of an automated turn in the reveal trailer. I’m not sure if Matt realizes that every single sonic game, bar none, includes automated sections just like that. This is not me defending automation as I believe we should always try to give control to the player as much as possible, but I do think Matt only associates it with Forces because it’s a game he dislikes. It’s hard to call that unbiased criticism imo.
1 thing about EVERY fanbase: There's a good and bad side
There's Good, bad, Idiotic, and toxic people in them
No matter what, you may encounter these kind of people in any fanbase
Sonic Fans ready to pull out ol’ Reliable “Stop Complaining!’ “Be Grateful!” “Shut Up!” “You’re just trying to be different!” “You just hate Sonic!” against any criticism.
Because it’s actually true in this case the criticisms are weak and don’t hold up
In that case, it’s more cristicism for the sake of criticism, it doesn’t rely on strong arguments at all. If even Splash Dash is excited for this game, it’s a sign that this game looks really promising in general
Sonic fans ready to pull out ol' reliable "You're a fake fan!" "Slop eater!" "You don't understand Sonic!" "You shouldn't like this!" against any optimism
@@KnucklesWTDthen explain instead of being a dick about it
@Terminal_Apotos
Nah, you're thinking of Pokémon fans. I'm not even joking when I say that.
i gave up getting my points across on sonic twitter, no one will listen. youtube is a far better and more respectable platform
that being said, as much as i respect matt as a creator and a person, i feel like the wording of "looks like sonic forces" was deliberate to spark attention and controversy. seemed really unprofessional for lack of a better term
The fanbase overcomplicates things. We already know how Generations play. You are buying Generations with some additional content. The game quality is in line with the size of the team and budget. Now if Sega doubles the budget and team for the next big new Sonic game and it doesn't improve then its a problem.
matt isnt even really wrong. i made a post about this on discord, reddit and twitter but if i could compare green hill modern, to this new level in sonic x shadow generations, (keep in mind they are both intro levels) you could really see the difference between the level design philosophy's. i got down voted just because i made valid concerns, and got hit with, the games not even out yet even though they are both the first levels of the game. so hear are my thoughts ig
personally while their is lot to like, such as the animations and stage transitions, the level design could use some work imo. People have been comparing it to modern green hill and have been saying it is better, and while thier are things that stage does better such as the animations and stage transitions
for starters the geography in gens levels are more curved and hill based, allowing great use of the boost launch and the drift. in modern green hill, u could launch off of the first slope with no boost but u wouldnt have the height to clear it without fall. the slopy level design allowed for gens to have better use of sonics moveset in subtle ways. take the second segment of the stage for example, u could just hold boost, but doing just that on a curved path will slow u down and will not allow u to turn tightly leading to u missing the red ring jump. however with the drift it will allow u to make that jump and shortcut. the level design in this game is much more blocky and less slope like, not allowing shadow to use the boost to its full potential and it makes the level design feel more artificial , as the curved level design of base gens allowed for u to approach levels in unique ways with new skips. the blocky level design also makes it feel less natural and throws off the pacing just enough to make it flow worse than previous sonic games. couple this with the fact that the boost formula is neutered compared to gens and unleashed as the drift, lack of slide sections, delayed quick step, no jump dash, and the fact that rings dont increase ur speed, as well as a overall lack of mechanics from unleashed/gens, forces the levels to accommodate for the lack of these important mechanics. it might not feel important, but these lack of mechanics add up and ultimately make the boost formula by itself, feel like a worse version of the gens/unleashed boost also the shortcuts and alternate paths are way to easy to reach. when u reach that section with the astriods and have to homing attack them, to reach that path its as simple as 3 button presses, and the pathway on the side could be reached before by just one jump. same with the first
alternate path, its as simple as going right. now this would be fine in a adventure game simply because its less automated, and u have more control over the characters, more mechanics, and more variables to account for such as no homing attacking on rails and no boosting on rails,and rail balancing. but because its a boost game, those things are things the player doesnt have to take into consideration, so it feels shallow. this is why the design philosophy of the adventure games dont work for the boost games, and why gens modern levels had to be altered a ton to fit the boost. and while gens has its moments where its like shadow gens, it also combines the reaction based gameplay of unleashed with the style of open and precise platforming of colors,
to where its much more
fast paced and risky. couple this with better camera movement, a faster boost, and the curved and slope like design of gens and the more mechanics in that system is why gens works but this game falters a bit. it could still be better with the chaos abilities, but just like the wisps in newer games, im not sure its going to be as well executed as say colors where exploration is the focus.
another thing is, the stage feels empty, in previous boost games such as colors, gens and unleashed, when the occasional segment of running in a straight path(not line there is a difference) you would smash through objects to really sell the fact that the boost is unstoppable if u know what u are doing, and it really sells the speed, sonics power, and the immersion.
sorry for the rant but thats all imo
Totally agree.
Agree to disagree
So you’re telling me that Green HILL has hills and The Ark doesn’t? And The Ark not having slopes makes it feel artificial, even though The Ark is a man-made structure?
Crazy.
Other than that, you have a point.
@@KaleSTUDIOS ok? That point is irrelavant because every other good space stage has a slope like terrian. Final rush, astriod coster, radical highway, city escape, any city stage in 3d has a slope like design despite being artificial. Its not the aesthetics thats the problem its that its way to blocky making it feel fake
@@mrmelonman2893 Final Rush and Asteroid Coaster have sloped terrain? Are you talking about a fan game or something?
As someone who left tons of sonic discord servers the fanbase really made me hate this franchise how can you enjoy something you loved if its part of a super toxic fanbase which shoves opinions down your throat im jealous super mario fans aint like these sonic fans.
Ikr. I wish the Sonic fans and fanbase were a little kinder to me and other people for having a different opinion, rather than attacking us for having them.
Sonic fans not complaining for a single second: level impossible
Almost like criticism is necessary for a franchise to improve, because if they don't know what they're doing wrong they aren't going to get better
this is not pointless complaining, it is calling out a serious issue with the fanbase that has been going for years
@@Davironwithin reason, otherwise itll blend together and just look like noise
@@Daviron Yeah, ACTUAL criticism is necessary. Not what a lot of you folks or Matt does which is label something ridiculous as "criticism" so if anyone questions it you can say "yOu CaN't TaKe CrItIcIsM."
Matt said sorry don't worry G.@@chrange9714
and that's why i turn off the comments section on my horror games/exe games
Looking on the steam community page for the game and I find it upsetting that there are people insulting and judging people who just want to play the game.
Its funny when people get on sonic fans for being cautious and not 100% falling for every game sonic team decides to put out considering how shit their track record truly is. You've got game series that rarely ever get under 80 or 75 in scores while sonic fans jump for joy if something can at least be a 65. Sonic team has burnt their fans way too many times for anyone to blindly defend or try to blindly toss away any criticism. It's not like sonic forces is a fan game, its an actual game that sonic team decided to shit out onto the world with their already shit reputation
good vid! i agree with everything you said, and i appreciate that you acknowledge both sides of toxicity as most sonictubers overlook the negativity and poke at the positivity, which is easier to do for views
i dont hate matt as a person, nor you, nor anyone that just personally dislikes the game, whenever i got mad at someone for saying "i dont like frontiers" it was usually because said person had a history of gatekeeping those who are excited or ARE currently gatekeeping rn, as i have seen several tweets that do that- i think it'd be boring if every sonic fan in the universe collectively agreed on something because differing opinions keeps discussions far more interesting than if everyone in the world said "unleashed is great", "lost world is bad" and so on
however, my issue with what matt is saying isn't that he's saying "game bad", rather it's the fact he's stating a claim that doesn't make sense, i think he forgot why forces' level design is so bad and i dont think we should dismiss every new sonic game for having linear level design tbh- the problem with forces was never its linearity, it's that it lacked spectacle and variety, i recommend splash dash's video on the situation, as he explains why shadow gens level design isn't forces in the slightest, and he dives into a level from og gens, forces and shadow gens to compare the 3
i respect matt's opinion obviously, but personally i don't think what he's saying makes a lot of sense and id have to disagree heavily, and respectfully i hope the game proves him wrong on launch, not in a mean way but in a "i hope it can convince you what it isn't"
KEEP IN MIND, this game is developed by gens devs, returning from the original game, gens had its level design constantly praised so i don't see how they could just randomly screw up, i genuinely believe it's just because it's the tutorial level, and pretty damn solid for a first level all things considered, and i don't mean this in a "its an early build" "it's just the first level" thing, i genuinely believe the level design will improve after already being great as is
I don't like how official gameplay showcase is making such a misunderstanding... they STILL don't know marketing!
Why Would Anybody Harass someone just because they said one critics about a game that’s not even out yet, We Really have some weird people sometimes
Next game i guess it is but 3 levels is that a game for you ?
Speaking about Matt, where is he? he hasn't made a video in nearly 4 months.
Your points are so accurate, I don't even have to say anything at this point. Matthasnocuts, to be far, was an asshole. It's not because the fact that he does not like Shadow Generations, it's because of the way he delivered his response. And them before taking a break from the internet. He decides to double down for some odd reasons. And that's when I started to dislike him. Premydaremy was not helping as well. He's basically that one kid that saw a couple having an argument and started yelling "HEY GUYS! THEY'RE FONNA BREAK UP!" in the middle of a school hallway. The only question I had at this point is "are sonictubers always like this"?
It’s funny that all the hundreds of people clowning and dog piling on Matt , call him the “toxic” one 😂
People need to learn that you can disagree with someone and still be respectful to them.
I wish twitter didnt exist.
So your friend said something baltantly false and people called him out.
Than you made a video saying its ok to do that but not to your friend cos when he does it its cool...
Am I misisng something?
This unfortunately makes all sonic fans look bad, but tbh yeah sometimes sonic fans be meat riding, and some if them shouldn't even be considered fans
IMO it looks like the forces team made the new levels, but they don't look like complete garbage this time
Would of made more sense to go after a toxic shipper that literally treats Amy like an accessory to Sonic than someone saying that their first impressions gave then Forces vibes.
despite me becoming more critical of the franchise in the passing months. i will admit that i have also been responsible for spreading toxic positivity, some even on this channel. just goes to show how people including myself need to stop getting caught up in their feelings. At the end of the day we are discussing a blue hedgehog and just want the franchise to be better.
I'm gonna be frank with you. there was no toxic positivity with forces and frontiers, what it was was you all blowing the forces and frontiers hate out of proportion when forces was just mediocre and still had good parts to it even if it was disappointing, but you all wouldn't allow us to even like anything about forces and would label us toxic positivity fans, and then you in turn would hate on frontiers being impatient with it when it was an open zone game and open world map games take 2-5 years to make because making the open maps is that difficult in the industry, even games like xenoblade take 2-5 years to make, main reason its 2 years between games is they've been using the xenoblade x engine and improving it over time.
with frontiers on the other hand, they had to make a new open map engine from scratch.
and alot of you sonic fans don't understand how difficult and time consuming that is.
open world maps, if not done right, can lead to game cancelations, that's how hard open world development is.
anyways unlike you all we decided to be patient and give sega a chance, and it paid off.
frontiers is now my new fav 3d sonic topping unleashed and heroes. as for sonic x shadow generations, nothing about the level design is like forces, at all, that opinion is just flat out wrong, if you watch the gameplay, stages are several minutes long unlike in forces, enemies actually attack you unlike in forces, there are more multiple pathways more like generations, unlike forces, shadow's controls are identical to sonic frontiers' mappings according to people that played the demo, there is an open zone hub world, new doom powers, chaos control mechanics to use in the stages, chaos warp attacking, new story, all new stages never given the generations treatment before like kingdom valley, final chase, and rail canyon, and maybe more. literally this game is everything forces wasn't. you all are full of it. you can call us unreasonable or nonsensical all you want, but the fact is its the other way around, us people that like frontiers, play other games besides sonic, including open world games, and alot of us knew how different the development time would be and were therefore patient and have good heads on our shoulders. more than I can say about you all.
Ima come all the way clean, this game is already a masterpiece it's even top 3 and now we are getting more of what this game has to offer, it's giving us a chance to play our fan favourite character Shadow the Hedgehog, adventure skins, and the fan favourite levels that we have loved so much throughout the past decades of sonic games, unleashed is the best sonic game rn and SXSG might serpass that after its release, we just getting more of an allready amazing game, this should seal the fact that this will be the best Sonic game oat
Expecting people to behave in Sonic Twitter is a completely lost cause it's so embarassing
2:31 Small thing but I don’t think you can really pin the distrust on SEGA, the company. SEGA has always made good games, they make the Yakuza games and they acquired Atlus, the creators of Persona and SMT. SEGA’s failing with Sonic are moreso a result of Sonic Team rather than SEGA as a whole, since SEGA has always been able to produce good games.
They should make it harder to speed make it an edge on the game something like that
Tbh i really never cared much I'm just do some healthy debates about sonic and do my own thing and call it the day without getting into it much
A lot of them don't way the series to expand ...only want sonic to be the star
I think he spoke way too soon. Its one thing to say it looks like forces when there isn't a demo available. Buts its another when people have played the demo and said how it doesn't play like that.😒
If Sonic Forces apparently has this level of quality level design-wise then please bring more Forces to the franchise.
Joking aside, i saw some gameplays and discussion videos about Forces and basically it sums up to "Sonic game with driving assists (Sonic turns automatically)" imo, besides the handholding (excessive dash pads). Level design there is meh but not atrocious.
The Boost handling games need to be like like a racing track instead of a skatepark, basically.
That's why i wouldn't recommend making this comparison in this manner but to each their own.
The only thing I want to be brought back from Sonic Forces is the avatar to be honest . It was the best part of the game and I'd like to see more races and options added to it.
This video was fantastic and I'm sticking around for more. Believe it or not, my video actually gave me a glimpse into the whole toxic negativity side of this fanbase and while I still stand by my idea that negativity really is a big issue (and you seem to agree with that) I know now that maybe even trying to analyze takes from others in this franchise isn't worth the headache.
You didn't attack me in your video like I expected you to and I respect you for that. I won't be hypocritical and tell you off for using my vid in your thumbnail - we creators have to play the game to get anywhere. If anything I find it flattering that I'm important enough to be used like that.
But all in all I've learned a bit from this entire thing and will once again reiterate that I don't think Matt's opinion itself was the issue but more so a trait a lot of Sonic fans SEEM to have but I'm gonna refrain from discussions like that in the future regardless of my intentions.
Can't wait to watch more of your stuff 😁
"Tell you off for using my vid in your thumbnail".....lmao, stop huffing your own farts. He used a thumbnail of one of yours which is publicly posted. While you COULD "tell him off", the ground you'd stand on to do so would be about as solid as a cloud.
@@BeholdMyStrength Guess it's a good thing I wasn't going to scold him anyway then, huh? Also just saying something is "publicly posted" isn't always grounds for using something. Would you say that to an illustrator on Twitter that doesn't want their work reposted? No, you wouldn't. Also I didn't realize enjoying the fact that people know you in the community - be it to a very small degree - equated to "huffing my own farts." I feel that would be a long the lines of me coming into the comments and making crazy demands or making a video about this one and saying how the creator is only using my face to get clicks. I have done neither, but if you still think I'm some pretentious asshole, that's your right to believe it 👍🏾
@@TheHavokNetwork To just one to one rip it off? No, that isn't a ground to use it for something. But that's not the case here, as what was done here very squarely falls under Fair Use, so let's not get into the apples and oranges bit.
Oh you didn't "tell him off", you only stated it in a way that implied you had the right, be it moral or legal, to do so but, out of your magnanimity you decided not to. It made you sound pompous as hell, and THAT'S what I was referring to by huffing your own farts lmao.
"Being known in the community"...that statement there and what follows is another prime example of personal fart huffing at it's finest. Bold of you to assume this individual even watched your video, instead of just searched some of the recent critique videos to do a thumbnail grab for his video.
@@BeholdMyStrength If he didn't, I feel like that's kinda missing the point of putting it in the thumbnail. That's like me making a video about unfair Sonic criticism and putting Pro Jared's video on SA2 in the thumbnail even though I didn't watch it but it's whatever. I also never said he wasn't being fair when it came to the thumbnail. Just like it's completely fair to use Matt's face in mine (Even though all his fans would disagree)
Also I guess I should've just sat down, shut up and not felt good about my accomplishments on this site then. I don't understand what I did incorrectly here. I said I liked the video and thought it was neat seeing myself be referenced in a video after years of not knowing what I'm doing on YT. Sorry for seeing it as an achievement and just expressing how cool I thought it was. I am a nobody and I'm aware of that. Maybe I always will be. There, is that better???
It seems you're just finding any nitpicking reason to dislike me and that's fine. I'm honestly used to that. But be that as it may, I hold nothing against you even if you don't seem to like me even though I don't even know you.
I think I've had my fill and will just accept the loss here. You have a fantastic morning 🌹
@@TheHavokNetwork Hmmm, my reply keeps getting deleted so let's try splitting it up and see what the problem paragraph is!
When searching "mattshabalabadingdong (or whatever his name is) criticism, your video is one of the first that show up. It's not that big of a stretch to think that a person doing a video like this would be searching through various YT videos/tweets etc. etc., for screengrabs of content for his thumbnail. Am I saying he did this and didn't watch your video? No, can't say that for certainty. But to just ASSUME that he did watch it instead of the other is...well, bold.
TBH I'm in the mindset that the Sonic series (gameverse) isn't there yet, but Sonic Frontiers is a good blue print and a step forward in the right direction going forward, I know it's janky but it's mostly the Engine that was used as the Hedgehog Engine by 2024 is a 16 year old engine and that I think it's time to give it a send off (maybe by Sonic Unleashed Remaster with Episode Knuckles) and use Unreal going forward for Sonic Frontiers 2 and the Adventure Remakes.
I'm just tired of this Fanbase that closing my Twitter account was the best thing I did as it is DeviantART 2.0, I'm looking forward to Sonic X Shadow Generations as it's like Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury with Shadow Generations being the Bowser's Fury of Sonic game, Bowser's Fury took what made Super Mario Odyssey great and made it better and Shadow Generations I feel is going to take from Sonic Frontiers good and improve upon it with it's open zone hub world (even I would say that Sonic Frontiers is like Super Mario Odyssey of Sonic games being that both SMO and SF laid the blue prints of two of my favorite gaming series going forward, I'm more of a Mario fan though)
Im a sonic fan and quit the sonic fandom tgats probably one of the only ways for people to be fans of sonic and at the aame time have peace
One of the most self-aware and self-diagnosed community around.
"Oh no, people are criticizing my opinion/criticism of a game......THEY MUST BE EXUDING TOXIC POSITIVITY!"
lmao, UA-cam reviewers crack me up.
womp womp, I love sonic forces and im excited for this game
3:14 i have never seen the other side go at someguy for being positive on the game in the pre-release of frontiers
I saw more of the inverse guess not to be dick or anything just strange
I’m not complaining about Sonic X Shadow Generations, it revived all of the negativity and etc.
I personally don't agree with a lot of Matt's opinions on Sonic in general so his take on Shadow Generations doesn't matter to me at all. That being said i do enjoy his content and i respect his opinions whether i agree with them or not.
I mean not all of them are toxic though. But nice video
I think he should of worded it better because just saying it looks like game A compare to game b is like me comparing Mario Odyssey to 64. Both play similar but they are nowhere close to resemble to each other
Same for this game and Forces. They have the same gameplay but he should know Forces booat formula was actually from Generations, not the other way around. In fact, unleashed, black knight, secret rings, even the adventure games.
In other words he is insulting a game that uses the idea first. Now if he was talking about the game lacks multiple paths then thats understandable.
It's a constant cycle. Someone doesn't like something, people don't like that this person doesn't like said thing, people jump on and harass the person and then everyone becomes unhappy. Then the cycle continues.
Even though I don't agree with Matt I still think he's allowed to think the game is good or bad I mean I was disappointed in Sonic Frontiers like yeah I think Frontiers is a good game but I don't think it's the fantastic come back that Sonic fans say it is like Frontiers is more a 7/10 than a 9/10 so if I can have that opinion about Frontiers than Sonic fans need to respect Matt.
Where is matthasnocuts these days?
I dunno, he hasn't posted in a while. I miss his videos.
@@JohnSmith-mk5jt me too
Being honest I’m skeptical, firstly, this game’s price tag being at 40$. Secondly, Generations thrown there seems like a bandage to somewhat fill a hole, and again, Sega relying on nostalgia yet again given that Gens and Shadow’s campaign will feature old levels and references. Sega is forever stuck in the past when it comes to Sonic, sadly I love Sonic, but you can wait for the next game and be met with disappointment so many times, we may grow old waiting for the next “good” Sonic game, that franchise peaked way back in 1994, now it has a stained legacy, I hardly see this franchise being taken seriously ever again regardless of how wide the fanbase is.
Plus, the gaming community takes itself way too seriously, we need to get off of UA-cam for a change of pace, some seem to only watch and react to other’s opinions, at the of the day, who cares?
Oh boy sonic politics have become a thing say that to some on from 18 years ago
hi
As one of the little to almost none sane Sonic fans, i am sorry that this community is not good. What i try to do is just ignore them to me they are like 5 years old who don't get their way, so i wish i could get rid of them so that sega and sonic team doesn't have to deal with them.
Im sick and tried of people comparing Sonic x Shadow generations to Sonic Forces it is nothing like it if they keep comparing it tell them don't play no Sonic games if they want to keep comparing it to Sonic Forces they are ungrateful im a Sonic fan when i saw the game it look nothing like Sonic Forces at all
It's impossible to be ungrateful for a product you're spending money on.
@@anthonyyawtwumasimensah197 lmao, thousands upon thousands of people that actually PAID tuition to receive a Gender Studies degree and now work for McDonald's STRONGLY disagree with you haha
@@BeholdMyStrength what kind of a point is this ?, if you spend your hard earned money on a product it is not up to par with the expected quality it isn't ungratefulness but criticism.
If you spend money on a degree that is sold to you as something that will gain you good employment but didn't. Speaking against it isn't ingratitude but a warning.
This argument makes no sense whatsoever. it belongs in the circus 🎪.
@@anthonyyawtwumasimensah197 Hmmm you're right, I concede that my point wasn't good....well, I at least concede that it wasn't as good as the point I gave/made with your mother last night.
You win!
@@BeholdMyStrengthbro what is this 13 year old Tate fan doing here
Forces aint no worse than the adventure titles 🤷♂️
Wtf? Forces is terrible compared to the adventure games! I’m not the hugest fan of those games but comparing them to Forces? You sir are the first person in the world that has an incorrect opinion. Congratulations!
@@FriesGuyy only 1/3 of sa2 is fun, but even those levels get worse throughout the game,, 2/3s or forces is playable, playing as knuckles or tails makes me wanna quit the game, i can live with classic sonic but even classic in forces is better than knuckles in sa2
@@maddoxreddish4352I personally think that all of sa2 except for the last treasure hunting stage in both stories is good. I also despise classic sonic gameplay and dislike the avatar. If we also talk about level design sa2 is better in my opinion but different people think differently.
People getting mad just because some didn't like a new video game about a cartoon talking Hedgehog.💀
Where did we go wrong?
so are people allowed to get mad about a video game about realistic man that does realistic manly things that men do in real life but in gaming?
@@heroicgangster9981 Did you even understand what I was saying?
I'm saying that it's ridiculous that people get so offended when other's just didn't like the game. I wasn't saying that people don't like it because it has cartoon animals in.
It's that others get so defensive for a video game about a cartoon hedgehog.
Like it's a sin to not like it or something.
Matthasnocuts is so garbage
Opinions can be wrong, specifically if they are based off of factually inaccurate information or just blatantly incorrect, that being said this isn't one of those cases.
It is... looks like Forces but it straight up doesn't
@@bbsj86 "comedy is often missed by those to focused on the specifics" -Me
i've never played sonic forces and the game looks trash, just like all games after SA2 even generations is super overrated
Thanks for speaking out against these toxic fools man
Dude don’t pretend like their aren’t people in the fandom who will tear into someone just for liking what they don’t even to this day. And the reason it’s annoying to see complaints about new sonic these days. Is that the ones who make it don’t seem to realize Sega has changed their attitude towards Sonic
Before 2020 I came down just as hard on Sega so I’m not a blind fanboy. But after the first sonic movie came out Sega started doing things I never once thought they’d do before. They actually acknowledged their mistakes, brought in a writer who actually understood Sonic, and DIDNT obsess over an anniversary release because Frontiers wasn’t ready then. All of this was very different from before. Their actually trying to put in the effort now and letting their development team have time to make a good game. So a comparison to Forces is going to annoy people, because that’s obviously meant to imply that Sega’s putting no effort in this but if you see the videos of people actually playing the game you know that’s not the case. Just the fact that their even acknowledging Shadows arcs and lore is a huge step up. Yes it really is a case of judging the game before it’s even come out yet and wanting to remain in that bubble that Sega never tries despite all the evidence to the contrary now.
I’m not saying they’ve been perfect but they have impressed me enough to where I can have faith they’ll give me a good game again. Frontiers issues were minor compared to all the good it did and they listened to critiques too instead of ignoring them. People who still hate on Sega need to have an open mind because their stuck in the past at this point. Again if I felt they were the same as before I’d gladly say so but their not