Helloooooooo I hope you're having an absolutely incredible day! Todays video was honestly such a blast to make, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did making it! Im sorry for the lack of uploads been mega busy with easter and life, Don't you ever go hollow friends!! The discord for the channel: discord.gg/xv8t5bFSzd All the music is done by the absolutely incredible Alex Roe, I'm not gay but if I were I would be for him, his stuff is just THAT good. Credit to "games from mars" for the Hyetta clip, I really wanted to add in Hyetta but I didn't have the clips :)
Hmm, I really liked this one! A different perpective on a topic that has been discussed many times! I sincerely hope your doctor's appointment went well, and you're going to be okay in the long run! I hope you had a fun Easter!
@@marystone860 I’m honestly soooooo glad you did Mary! Thank you! I’m having a kidney biopsy on Wednesday to see what fully going on in there a bit nervous but fingers crossed it goes okay, I hope so, I really do. Thank you, Happy Easter to you too! It was really good! How was you’re Easter? I hope you’ve been doing okay?
The only problem with the idea of evergaol Vyke being an imprint of the past actually comes from Ranni’s quest. Before Blaidd gets imprisoned, that evergaol is dormant, assuming you’ve beaten the boss inside first, and returns to being so after Blaidd somehow finds his way out. Plus, evergaol Vyke still wears his frenzy armor, showing he was imprisoned after his meeting with the Three Fingers. This is most likely the doing of Morgott, as he would not only want to hide away the Three Fingers, but also eliminate the potential threat of a Lord of Chaos. But that begs the question; why didn’t Morgott simply have him killed? Plus, if we’re talking about the in-lore powerscaling, Vyke would probably clap Morgott. I think this exile may actually be self imposed. The physical form of Vyke seems to resist using any kind of Frenzy, perhaps as penance for his past sins. However, this still leaves the matter of his frenzied invader counterpart. The secret to this, I believe, is actually dreams. Another NPC that invades us while also physically existing in the game world is Millicent, afflicted by the scarlet rot, which we know from Malenia’s dialogue seems to produce some vivid dreams. There’s actually some cut dialogue from Millicent where she describes nightmares filled with her killing countless enemies. While these could be latent memories of Malenia, she only invades us before we give her Miquella’s needle. So, somehow, characters in Elden Ring are able to invade through their dreams. This makes sense with the established narrative for Vyke. While he does his penance in the evergaol, he is haunted by nightmares of the death of his maiden, which is able to manifest his former frenzied self
I honestly had no idea it was dormant before, that’s super intriguing!!! I absolutely love you’re thoughts, what you’re saying is reinforced a lot by another comment I read on here, gist of it was that maybe invasions from NPC’s are linked to arcane, each branch of being has its own outer god, Miquellas needle repels the meddling of outer gods… maybe this outer god is one of dreams, which is bloody exciting in of itself!!! Thanks for the amazing comment, it was such a blast to read!
Love the idea of invasion being the physical manifestation someone’s dream! Would explain how we are to be invaded by the girl with the huge butcher knife several times. It also puts into question wether we also are in a perpetual dream. A summoned NPC is an apparition as well, “going back to their world” once the fight is done. I really wonder what that means, since it suggest that they have their own world. Maybe they go back to their own dream. Ah well. 🤷🏻♂️ About power scaling between Morgott and Vyke, I think the location that we meet Vyke’s real physical form is indicative of where Vyke’s journey to become Elden Lord ended. I suppose he also went to fire up the Erdtree but was then stopped in his tracks by someone.
@@kithugomusic I’ve held the belief that Elden Ring’s world isn’t strictly a physical plane since the first gameplay trailer dropped. Many other loretubers also believe that the entire in-game map is simply the inner world of Marika/Radagon. Plus, in a (rather poorly) translated interview, Miyazaki refers to the Lands Between as “the Interstice”, which should be a very familiar term if you’ve read Berserk. The Lands Between represent the parts of herself that Marika wishes to be seen on the surface, with there being deeper secrets below ground and beyond time. This is why I’m so excited for the DLC, because if the new area represents, in the Jungian sense, Marika’s psychological shadow, then it’s going to full of everything Marika wishes to repress and keep hidden
Well, the fingerprints on Vykes armor match perfectly with the ones you get on your own body. So nope, Vykes was not grabbed from behind. Also it is written somewhere that Vykes gave himself to the Frenzied flame.
Pretty sure Vaati was the first I heard mention Vyke’s armor being burnt instead of his body. He mentions how the fingerprint covers one of the eyes of the helmets, but not the other. Since we know that the Flame of Frenzy very clearly afflicts the eyes (your own, and the eyes of the men and rats near or in frenzied villages). Following the tracks of Hyetta’s quest we learn that what we are feeding her are actually eyes, not grapes, and eventually we find the “Fingerprint Grape”, which description tells us: “Eyeball of knight Vyke, inflamed in yellow”. The name “Fingerprint grape” suggest it has the fingerprint of the three fingers. Which further, indirectly lets us know that Vyke plucked out his own eye. With his touched eye gone, he also managed to rid himself of the frenzy, or at least should make it a lot easier.
Completely get where you would be confused! The finger reader in the roundtable hold mentions how only one other tarnished had gotten this far, saying they had 2 great runes if my memory servers, so I think he probably did kill quite a few Demi-gods! I think vykes armour also mentions something of him nearly being a lord too, though I could be wrong!
Vyke, if he wanted to become a lord, could have only resorted to the frenzied flame to burn the erdtree, because his FINGER maiden would have NEVER served as kindling for the erdtree. Only the "kindling maiden", aka Melina would have served as proper kindling. This was Marika's "filter" to make sure only the tarnished of her choosing would have become lord, us. The game was stacked against all tarnished from the beginning, expect us. This includes Bernahl, his character exists to show us what would happen if a tarnished reached the forge and his/her maiden threw herself to the fire. Nothing would happen. It's why Bernahl rebelled. As for Vyke, I think due to the fact he was burned with his armor on, the effect of the frenzied flame was only partial in him and his attempt at burning the erdtree only resorted in a partial burn (ashes in Leyndell), but not enough to burn the tree completely. We on the other hand, receive the flame naked and can burn the tree completely on our own. Because Vyke was only partially affected, maybe he retained some degree of sanity and locked himself in the evergaol, either that or someone else did that, such as Lansseax.
I hadn’t ever noticed this, but I absolutely love it!! The idea that WE are the chosen tarnished of marika…wait a bloody second “chosen tarnished who would be lord dare to tread the path of true rigour?”, it’s all clicking into place now and I have you to thank you, thank you! Love the thoughts of vyke too!!!!
@@theemeraldgecko310 Look up torrent, the 3 wolves ashes, the 3 wolves statue in farum azula and Melina change in speech (more familiar and friendly, "hello OLD friend"), after defeating Morgott. We are gifted torrent and the 3 wolves ashes. I think we help Marika ascend in the past and she is rewarding us by becoming her successor. We are stuck in a time loop, Marika and us. We help each other. Also, the game from beginning was not only stacked against the tarnished, but also against the demigods. They were all doomed from the start. We and Marika are the main actors of the GO and the shattering, everyone is suffering to a degree because of us. It's why Marika warns the demigods they will become sacrifices. She knows the prophecy of the "tarnished lord" (from the 2 fingers in Leyndell) will come true and she knows we are the tarnished lord, the circumstances will forcibly align to promote our arrival, meaning the demigods MUST fail by fate. This is because of the nature of the time loop, it has no beginning nor end. We enable Marika and she enables us. All others are bystanders so to speak, suffering due to our shared decisions. Meaning, no matter how much we criticize Marika for being a horrible person, she did all of this to promote us. And now that you have that context, are you so willing to criticize her a you once did? Because if you do then you must hate yourself as well, as the player character tarnished. So yes, congratulations, Marika is a "villain" in the non traditional sense of the word, but so are you. Now are you going to despise yourself or be divided in moral judgement due to the nuance of yours and Marika's circumstances? Btw, Marika most likely liked us a lot, if not loved us (the cutscene of Melina burning). But something happened during her ascension. From that point onwards, her life was a curse without end (item description, Marika's soreseal). It's why she doesn't have any investment with her children, the life she had as a god was not the one she wanted.
"This was Marika's "filter" to make sure only the tarnished of her choosing would have become lord, us." I guess this assumes that Melina is an agent of Marika, which is fair. She does wield a holy version of the black knife, hails from the "foot of the Erdtree," and somehow can sense Marika's words echoing through time in the churches (maybe, she could always be faking it I suppose). I do like the idea that Vyke's maiden failed him rather than the other way around. Another option is that she was slain by a third party. Truly no way to know with the evidence at hand. Yeah I don't think Vyke actually got so far as to fully burn the Erdtree, only it's runic shell. Partial induction into the Frenzy wouldn't be enough to survive offering himself to the Fell God I think. My reasoning for this is that we never see Vyke in the flesh. We only see him as an invading spirit or within the otherworldly evergaol. Because his physical body was consumed in the Forge.
@@theemeraldgecko310 My previous comment was deleted, but here's an abridged version. This entire game is a time loop. We help Marika ascend in the past and she helps us become her successor in the age after hers. Melina is Marika or has some aspect of Marika within her, because after we defeat Morgott, she talks with us in a much more friendly and familiar way, "Hello old friend". She recovered her memories or received Marika memories as she went to "ascertain her purpose". Ask why Torrent sniffs us and identifies us, why we receive the spirit bell with the 3 wolves ashes, same 3 wolves in the farum azula statue and why Melina changes in tone and manner of speech after Morgott's defeat. Torrent is the initial "filter" that allows everything to kickstart. This entire game is a time loop, a temporal paradox. The "tarnished lord" prophecy, of the 2 fingers in Leyndell and maybe the same 2 fingers in the roundtable hold (Marika's 2 fingers), is part of this time loop. It's through this prophecy that Marika realized we would come to the LB and it's why, in large part, she banished the tarnished. She wanted to promote the circumstances for our arrival to the LB.
@@theemeraldgecko310 Also, the Shadow of the Erdtree trailer, "mother, would you truly lordship sanction in one so bereft of light?" This is a tease by Miyazaki in my opinion. He's giving a clue. Messmer's question refers not just to our condition as a tarnished but to why Marika is promoting US in specific.
Life is good! Healthy and happy. The only thing I am currently wanting for is new FromSoft content haha I cannot wait to see your takes on the new lore. Your channel remains one of my favorites! How are things for you?
@@sethrose1632I’m honestly so glad you’re doing well, truly! God same here, I’m so hyped for the dlc it’s gonna be so good! I’m so glad you like these, it truly means the world! They’ve been okay thank you for asking! Still ill, but not feeling as bad!!!
So glad to hear things are going better if not a full recovery. Hopefully full recovery is a possibility with time! Keep up the awesome work when you are able. I hope you enjoy making these as much as I enjoy watching !
I've always taken it that we play inside Marika's mind. I've started to look at invaders as intrusive thoughts. Our Vyke, had a bond with the dragons. We know that Lansseax loved him, and Fortissax seems to have accepted him as well, since Vyke can cast Fortissax's Lightning Spear. Vyke didn't want to kill or sacrifice his Maiden, so he went to see the tree fingers. Now, I'm assuming that Lansseax tried to protect Vyke, so he ended up in the Evergoal, and killed his maiden. So, the intrusive thought part, it really just comes down to us finding the maiden, and thinking of what could have happened if Vyke had found his maiden, dead. He would have gone mad, the frenzied flame would have taken over and since he would have seen us, he would have expected us to be the killer. The same situation can be explained through Edgar. When we last see Edgar, he's mourning the death of his daughter. And when we get attacked by Edgar, it's basically us thinking that Edgar might have gone mad, and maybe even thinks that we may have killed her. A long time ago, Mad Tongue Alberich was part of the Round Table Hold, but he's an intrusive thought when we jump down the balcony. Recusant Henricus, who attacks us at one of the shacks, is somebody who was killed by the Volcano Manor. We know this, because the hits placed by the people of Volcano Manor, are on other tarnished. So, also an intrusive thought.
I absolutely love this theory, the idea that these invaders are the intrusive thoughts marikas mind, is such a cool thought!!!! Thank you for sharing this it was a blast to read!!
@@theemeraldgecko310 I would recommend giving the content by TheCenteredTarnished a watch. He's made several videos where he explains how Carl Jung's human psyche concept inspired the world that's created in Elden Ring. I agree with a lot of the material that he's published, but he mainly focusses on trying to connect everything through only Carl Jung's human psyche concept, and I do think that this causes him to miss certain connections or elements regarding world and story elements. But his work is really solid. I don't know if you've ever played any of the Persona games, Shin Megami Tensei games, the Final Fantasy (7, 8, 9 & 10) games or any of the Hoyoverse games (like Genshin Impact)? I'm sure that people who played any of those games would recognize a lot of the elements used in the Elden Ring story. Where the general core of the story is based on Gnosticism; Sophia's story (The Fall of Sophia). What Elden Ring does really well is also tell the same story through other used references; like Norse, Greek & Egyptian mythology (Tree of life, Tartarus, the Ogdoad, Demiurge), but also through real life structures (like Marika's bed chamber actually being the Roman Pantheon), old alchemical concepts of creating gold & Philosopher's Stone (Ripley Scroll) and operas (like Der Ring des Nibelungen). So I kinda see the game as the Tokyo's public transport system, where each line basically represents a different source that's used as a reference. Stick to one line, and you'll have a pretty good understanding, but you'll still have questions. The more you know about the other lines, the easier it becomes to puzzle it all together :) ps. I had posted this much earlier, but I think there was something odd going on, since the comment didn't show but was considered posted.
I always assumed that Vyke still wearing his armor is what made the mark of frenzy less effective than it otherwise would... Not wanting to make the same mistake again the 3 fingers makes you strip before commiting. The fact that he looks like he was grabbed from behind is really interesting and something I had not considered before.
Great video! Vyke is one of the more fascinating characters in that there is much we cannot know about him. I'm glad you mentioned the tendency for Fromsoft to not overlook things - there is so much that is unexplained. One thing in particular is the tendency for Marika/Radigon to have cursed children, and to discard/sacrifice those who 'fail to become aught' at will. There are three overlooked ladies of royalty that share the naming convention of the G and M line. Like Godwyn, Mohg and Morgott there are the Demihuman Queens Gilika, Maggie and Margot. At the head of the Lion Dancer is someone who has the same hands as the Demihuman Queens, the same teeth and facial dimensions, and the same bite/slam attacks as the Demihuman Queens - and the color eyes that match the glintstone sorcery that Maggie was receiving at Hermit Village. Why else would a Demihuman be with the Omen, if they were not part of the same lineage that is entitled to wear that Serosh-like Lion costume? Hard to say, but its something that I haven't seen anyone else cover but there is no way that it was an oversight, particularly since one even has half of Marika's name, and the other two have the M-twin name convention.
Thank you, I’m honestly so glad you enjoyed this one!!! I won’t lie, my knowledge on the Demihuman queens aren’t very extensive, which is on me, but having just read what I’ve just read, next chance I get I’m going into Elden ring and reading up on the demihumans! This is such an incredible theory and I’m shocked no one has thought of it before! Thank you for sharing this here, it’s honestly blown my mind!!!!!
I believe that because Vyke was embraced in his armor, thats why he was able to excise his own eye and imprisoned himself in the evergaol. And the fact we need to be naked is because vyke was not naked, and didn't absorb the flame as deeply as he should. Also i noticed that the three fingers fade away completely after we inherit the flame, perhaps thats because the flame was put in someone else and whats left is the last of its power. And i do think its present vyke in the evergaol, you said the armor isnt an oversight, the fact the armor is still burned and warped in the evergaol tells me its after he inherited the flame. Vykes armor resembles near perfectly the vagobond knight set and the knight set you can get from the twin maiden husks, if they were portraying past Vyke, i think theyd either give him a restored armor set, or have him wear one of those other ones. Another point to the fact the phantom isnt the real vyke, is the bell bearing hunters are all Elemer of the Briar, yet hes still alive to be killed in the shaded castle. I do like the theory that Vyke killed his own maiden, adding to his own despair. I have a conspiracy that all invaders have something to with arcane power, some invading phantoms include, Mad tongue alberic(who has blood thorn magic) the bell bearing hunters(his sword uses arcane powers) the bloody fingers(obviously blood related) the baleful shadow(i got nothing arcane from this one) Yura the bloody finger hunter,(i believe was a former bloody finger, he chopped off his finger and wants to do the same to eleanora also you can assist him in an invasion* of the ravenmount assassin in raya lucaria) edgar the revenger (he also is frenzy inflicted so perhaps that alone is enough) and vyke himself. That leads me to the conspiracy, what if vyke's downfall started before finding the three fingers, and in the process of becoming a bloody finger, he killed his own maiden, and in regret and despair went to the three fingers, and as you said he got cold feet and tried to turn and run, but was grabbed from behind in his armor. I call it a conspiracy because it takes a lot of points just to come up with a reason he can invade us. Long ass comment but i like the videos topic.
First of all I want to say you never need to apologise for long comments here!! I can imagine some other people who make fromsoftware content might not appreciate it as much, but if I’m being honest the long comments of people’s thoughts are some of my favourite parts of making these videos :) Absolutely love these ideas! Totally agree on the evergaol! That was honestly a really big oversight on my part, thank you for bringing it up it hadn’t even crossed my head!!!! I can really see invasions having something to do with arcane! Fingers crossed we’ll get more stuff to do with it in the dlc! Maybe the invasions are left behind imprints of the past? Totally love you’re “conspiracy theory” but imo I don’t think it’s a conspiracy theory, I would not be surprised whatsoever if this turned out to be the case!!!!! Thanks for the amazing comment means the world!
@@theemeraldgecko310 well the way she is sitting, in a chair, like she was waiting on someone and was killed, you brought up a really good point where the marks on his armor shows (what looks like) he changed his mind at the last minute and he ran away, right when the three fingers were going to grab him, probably because someone or something (Shabriri) warned him about his maiden being attacked/killed if he didn't take off his armor, but he was so driven by strength and power, he stayed in his armor (why, I need my armor to help protect me from a god, couldn't tell you honestly) consequences for his actions, Shabriri could have killed his Maiden (while possessing another body atm) I don't know really but Vatti has a really good video about Vykes story in his prepare to cry series
@@nemesisundead83Thank you for taking the time to explain you’re thoughts, they’re truly amazing!!!!! I remember watching that prepare to cry, I absolutely loved it!
A huge reason why I and others really like Subterranean Shunning Grounds, aside from the multiple paths, points of interest, discovery and co-op madness, is because of how it hides lots of hideous things below. Having the three fingers and Godwin's domain just nearby literally shows the corruption the golden order can't seem to eradicate. Vyke was just an unfortunate case of a talented man being corrupted (a la Anakin/Darth Vader) by a force far bigger than anyone could explain.
Not to mention the omens! The subterranean shunning ground is such a good area baring the tunnels bits! It really is like you say, it’s such a huge culmination of all the golden order deems blasphemous, yet they can’t seem to truly rid the world of it. Hadn’t thought of it like that, but you’re totally right, it’s straight out of Star Wars lmao!
I think the Vyke in the evergaol is the current Vyke in that he still has the three finger prints on his armor and the fact he was in the mountaintops indicates he was on his way to burn the erdtree after attaining the frenzy. Why he doesn’t use any frenzy here tho is still a mystery.
My understanding is the invader NPC fights are kind of dream state/out of time manifestations of the people, while the Evergaol fights are those people who were trapped in a timeless state when they went inside. With that rationale, the Evergaol Vyke is the one who actually did all the historical stuff, while the one outside the church is more of a phantom/memory/recreation/alternate dimension version. 🤷♀️ The Evergaol version, who was burned by the Three Fingers after rejecting the Frenzied Flame refuses to use those powers and reverts to his dragon communion abilities.
I hadn’t ever heard of this theory before this video, but as you and a few others have mentioned, phantoms are more most likely manifestations, I love this theory beyond belief!
If you mean before us, the golden order stole the rune of death and controlled it so death would not come to their own, if you mean when we kill Maliketh we unleash it into the world we don’t actually “steal” it like Maliketh says :)
Timeline: - Chad Vyke renown for abilitys and even has a lady dragon sidechick he "communes" with. - Vyke gains 2 lord souls and gets ready to enter erdtree to become elden lord. - his maiden informs him of sacrifice needed to open the way. - Vyke dosnt want to lose his maiden and thus looks for another way. - Shabriri informs vyke of another way to save his maiden/gain entree to erdtree theough frenzied flame. - vyke makes deal with 3 fingers but regrets decision and before losing himself to madness locks himself in the mountaontop of giants evergaol to stop himself. - Vykes maiden commits suicide ( either before or after this > if before then vyke went to 3 fingers as last resort > if killed afterwords, maiden loses hope as vyke has lost himself to the frenzied flame kills herself out of dishonour and lost purpose ). - the tarnished finds vyke imprisoned in evergaol and puts him out of his misery.
Vyke's armor in the evergaol has the fingerprints on them, it means he managed to escape the influence of shabriri through dragon communion. he was probably jailed for siding with the dragons.
Im still so pissed frenzy spells snd the frenzy seal dont scale from mind they consume absurd FP and resisting insanity is definitely a "mind" quality.
@theemeraldgecko310 I've got another dozen common sense changes like that In mind. there's so much clunkiness to the game that was completely avoidable
Maybe the dragons know something about warding outer gods since none seem to follow any and you need to go to big dragon arena in sky to make miquellas needle Maybe vykes dragon lover, after he freaks out on the maiden, cures him and he jails himself for the crime of murder
I think his maiden killed herself. Her duty and purpose was to die. She probably felt like she could not escape her fate. Or worse felt like she failed to do the one thing she thought she was put on that world to do.
You’re welcome!!! It’s honestly such an important detail that seems to have gone massively under the radar! I was watching a few days ago and the topic of vyke got brought up and it all clicked into place!
NOT THE COLD FEET ending in coercion 🤣😂🤣😂 This bit TOOK ME OUT… You are so funny and so cute and so clever! I always feel like when I have a listen to your videos I’m tuning in to get the tea from the lands between. I adore you. 🤣😂💜💜💜 The cold feet bit truly sent me! Thank you. You’re a MF diamond!💎
Glad you enjoyed it 🤣😂 so many lore videos are just pure information, which isn’t necessarily bad, but I guess when you do that style of content you don’t get to be yourself? So I’m glad my approach is enjoyableeee, I know some people have had problems with it in the past :) Horfrost stomp has got absolutely nothing on vyke
I often thought about why Vyke's armor has the fingerprint of the three fingers and what that means... I think maybe no one knew you had to singe your own flesh but when Vyke fails to become the Lord of Frenzy flame, somehow afterward it became known for a Lord of Frenzy to rise, that their flesh had to be seared. So, the three fingers are put behind a door that won't open until you're nakey so the Three Fingers can grab you and singe the flesh.
Helloooooooo I hope you're having an absolutely incredible day! Todays video was honestly such a blast to make, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did making it! Im sorry for the lack of uploads been mega busy with easter and life, Don't you ever go hollow friends!!
The discord for the channel: discord.gg/xv8t5bFSzd
All the music is done by the absolutely incredible Alex Roe, I'm not gay but if I were I would be for him, his stuff is just THAT good.
Credit to "games from mars" for the Hyetta clip, I really wanted to add in Hyetta but I didn't have the clips :)
Hmm, I really liked this one! A different perpective on a topic that has been discussed many times! I sincerely hope your doctor's appointment went well, and you're going to be okay in the long run! I hope you had a fun Easter!
@@marystone860 I’m honestly soooooo glad you did Mary! Thank you! I’m having a kidney biopsy on Wednesday to see what fully going on in there a bit nervous but fingers crossed it goes okay, I hope so, I really do. Thank you, Happy Easter to you too! It was really good! How was you’re Easter? I hope you’ve been doing okay?
The only problem with the idea of evergaol Vyke being an imprint of the past actually comes from Ranni’s quest. Before Blaidd gets imprisoned, that evergaol is dormant, assuming you’ve beaten the boss inside first, and returns to being so after Blaidd somehow finds his way out. Plus, evergaol Vyke still wears his frenzy armor, showing he was imprisoned after his meeting with the Three Fingers. This is most likely the doing of Morgott, as he would not only want to hide away the Three Fingers, but also eliminate the potential threat of a Lord of Chaos.
But that begs the question; why didn’t Morgott simply have him killed? Plus, if we’re talking about the in-lore powerscaling, Vyke would probably clap Morgott. I think this exile may actually be self imposed. The physical form of Vyke seems to resist using any kind of Frenzy, perhaps as penance for his past sins. However, this still leaves the matter of his frenzied invader counterpart.
The secret to this, I believe, is actually dreams. Another NPC that invades us while also physically existing in the game world is Millicent, afflicted by the scarlet rot, which we know from Malenia’s dialogue seems to produce some vivid dreams. There’s actually some cut dialogue from Millicent where she describes nightmares filled with her killing countless enemies. While these could be latent memories of Malenia, she only invades us before we give her Miquella’s needle. So, somehow, characters in Elden Ring are able to invade through their dreams. This makes sense with the established narrative for Vyke. While he does his penance in the evergaol, he is haunted by nightmares of the death of his maiden, which is able to manifest his former frenzied self
I honestly had no idea it was dormant before, that’s super intriguing!!! I absolutely love you’re thoughts, what you’re saying is reinforced a lot by another comment I read on here, gist of it was that maybe invasions from NPC’s are linked to arcane, each branch of being has its own outer god, Miquellas needle repels the meddling of outer gods… maybe this outer god is one of dreams, which is bloody exciting in of itself!!! Thanks for the amazing comment, it was such a blast to read!
it's mind blowing how much sense this makes of so many things. Good stuff yo
Love the idea of invasion being the physical manifestation someone’s dream! Would explain how we are to be invaded by the girl with the huge butcher knife several times.
It also puts into question wether we also are in a perpetual dream. A summoned NPC is an apparition as well, “going back to their world” once the fight is done. I really wonder what that means, since it suggest that they have their own world. Maybe they go back to their own dream. Ah well. 🤷🏻♂️
About power scaling between Morgott and Vyke, I think the location that we meet Vyke’s real physical form is indicative of where Vyke’s journey to become Elden Lord ended. I suppose he also went to fire up the Erdtree but was then stopped in his tracks by someone.
@@kithugomusic I’ve held the belief that Elden Ring’s world isn’t strictly a physical plane since the first gameplay trailer dropped. Many other loretubers also believe that the entire in-game map is simply the inner world of Marika/Radagon. Plus, in a (rather poorly) translated interview, Miyazaki refers to the Lands Between as “the Interstice”, which should be a very familiar term if you’ve read Berserk.
The Lands Between represent the parts of herself that Marika wishes to be seen on the surface, with there being deeper secrets below ground and beyond time. This is why I’m so excited for the DLC, because if the new area represents, in the Jungian sense, Marika’s psychological shadow, then it’s going to full of everything Marika wishes to repress and keep hidden
Well, the fingerprints on Vykes armor match perfectly with the ones you get on your own body. So nope, Vykes was not grabbed from behind. Also it is written somewhere that Vykes gave himself to the Frenzied flame.
I hadn’t noticed this whatsoever!!! I’m gonna go check this out asap thank you for letting me know :)
Pretty sure Vaati was the first I heard mention Vyke’s armor being burnt instead of his body. He mentions how the fingerprint covers one of the eyes of the helmets, but not the other.
Since we know that the Flame of Frenzy very clearly afflicts the eyes (your own, and the eyes of the men and rats near or in frenzied villages).
Following the tracks of Hyetta’s quest we learn that what we are feeding her are actually eyes, not grapes, and eventually we find the “Fingerprint Grape”, which description tells us: “Eyeball of knight Vyke, inflamed in yellow”.
The name “Fingerprint grape” suggest it has the fingerprint of the three fingers. Which further, indirectly lets us know that Vyke plucked out his own eye. With his touched eye gone, he also managed to rid himself of the frenzy, or at least should make it a lot easier.
I never understood how he was almost the next Elden Lord. What demigod did he kill?
Completely get where you would be confused! The finger reader in the roundtable hold mentions how only one other tarnished had gotten this far, saying they had 2 great runes if my memory servers, so I think he probably did kill quite a few Demi-gods! I think vykes armour also mentions something of him nearly being a lord too, though I could be wrong!
There are many more demigods than the ones we see in the game
@theemeraldgecko310 none of that is mentioned in the game. At least from my play through.
@@MrFRNTIK sources?
@@kylethompson3259 the game itself? Did you not play it?
Vyke, if he wanted to become a lord, could have only resorted to the frenzied flame to burn the erdtree, because his FINGER maiden would have NEVER served as kindling for the erdtree. Only the "kindling maiden", aka Melina would have served as proper kindling. This was Marika's "filter" to make sure only the tarnished of her choosing would have become lord, us.
The game was stacked against all tarnished from the beginning, expect us. This includes Bernahl, his character exists to show us what would happen if a tarnished reached the forge and his/her maiden threw herself to the fire. Nothing would happen. It's why Bernahl rebelled.
As for Vyke, I think due to the fact he was burned with his armor on, the effect of the frenzied flame was only partial in him and his attempt at burning the erdtree only resorted in a partial burn (ashes in Leyndell), but not enough to burn the tree completely. We on the other hand, receive the flame naked and can burn the tree completely on our own. Because Vyke was only partially affected, maybe he retained some degree of sanity and locked himself in the evergaol, either that or someone else did that, such as Lansseax.
I hadn’t ever noticed this, but I absolutely love it!! The idea that WE are the chosen tarnished of marika…wait a bloody second “chosen tarnished who would be lord dare to tread the path of true rigour?”, it’s all clicking into place now and I have you to thank you, thank you!
Love the thoughts of vyke too!!!!
@@theemeraldgecko310 Look up torrent, the 3 wolves ashes, the 3 wolves statue in farum azula and Melina change in speech (more familiar and friendly, "hello OLD friend"), after defeating Morgott. We are gifted torrent and the 3 wolves ashes.
I think we help Marika ascend in the past and she is rewarding us by becoming her successor. We are stuck in a time loop, Marika and us. We help each other.
Also, the game from beginning was not only stacked against the tarnished, but also against the demigods. They were all doomed from the start. We and Marika are the main actors of the GO and the shattering, everyone is suffering to a degree because of us. It's why Marika warns the demigods they will become sacrifices. She knows the prophecy of the "tarnished lord" (from the 2 fingers in Leyndell) will come true and she knows we are the tarnished lord, the circumstances will forcibly align to promote our arrival, meaning the demigods MUST fail by fate.
This is because of the nature of the time loop, it has no beginning nor end. We enable Marika and she enables us. All others are bystanders so to speak, suffering due to our shared decisions.
Meaning, no matter how much we criticize Marika for being a horrible person, she did all of this to promote us. And now that you have that context, are you so willing to criticize her a you once did? Because if you do then you must hate yourself as well, as the player character tarnished.
So yes, congratulations, Marika is a "villain" in the non traditional sense of the word, but so are you. Now are you going to despise yourself or be divided in moral judgement due to the nuance of yours and Marika's circumstances?
Btw, Marika most likely liked us a lot, if not loved us (the cutscene of Melina burning). But something happened during her ascension. From that point onwards, her life was a curse without end (item description, Marika's soreseal). It's why she doesn't have any investment with her children, the life she had as a god was not the one she wanted.
"This was Marika's "filter" to make sure only the tarnished of her choosing would have become lord, us."
I guess this assumes that Melina is an agent of Marika, which is fair. She does wield a holy version of the black knife, hails from the "foot of the Erdtree," and somehow can sense Marika's words echoing through time in the churches (maybe, she could always be faking it I suppose).
I do like the idea that Vyke's maiden failed him rather than the other way around. Another option is that she was slain by a third party. Truly no way to know with the evidence at hand.
Yeah I don't think Vyke actually got so far as to fully burn the Erdtree, only it's runic shell. Partial induction into the Frenzy wouldn't be enough to survive offering himself to the Fell God I think. My reasoning for this is that we never see Vyke in the flesh. We only see him as an invading spirit or within the otherworldly evergaol. Because his physical body was consumed in the Forge.
@@theemeraldgecko310 My previous comment was deleted, but here's an abridged version. This entire game is a time loop. We help Marika ascend in the past and she helps us become her successor in the age after hers.
Melina is Marika or has some aspect of Marika within her, because after we defeat Morgott, she talks with us in a much more friendly and familiar way, "Hello old friend". She recovered her memories or received Marika memories as she went to "ascertain her purpose".
Ask why Torrent sniffs us and identifies us, why we receive the spirit bell with the 3 wolves ashes, same 3 wolves in the farum azula statue and why Melina changes in tone and manner of speech after Morgott's defeat. Torrent is the initial "filter" that allows everything to kickstart.
This entire game is a time loop, a temporal paradox. The "tarnished lord" prophecy, of the 2 fingers in Leyndell and maybe the same 2 fingers in the roundtable hold (Marika's 2 fingers), is part of this time loop. It's through this prophecy that Marika realized we would come to the LB and it's why, in large part, she banished the tarnished. She wanted to promote the circumstances for our arrival to the LB.
@@theemeraldgecko310 Also, the Shadow of the Erdtree trailer, "mother, would you truly lordship sanction in one so bereft of light?" This is a tease by Miyazaki in my opinion. He's giving a clue. Messmer's question refers not just to our condition as a tarnished but to why Marika is promoting US in specific.
Blew my mind! How you continue to do this two years later is amazing. Can't wait to see what you do with Shadow of the Erdtree my friend
Thank you Seth, from the bottom of my heart it truly means the world!!!! Hope you’ve been well?
Life is good! Healthy and happy. The only thing I am currently wanting for is new FromSoft content haha I cannot wait to see your takes on the new lore. Your channel remains one of my favorites! How are things for you?
@@sethrose1632I’m honestly so glad you’re doing well, truly! God same here, I’m so hyped for the dlc it’s gonna be so good! I’m so glad you like these, it truly means the world! They’ve been okay thank you for asking! Still ill, but not feeling as bad!!!
So glad to hear things are going better if not a full recovery. Hopefully full recovery is a possibility with time!
Keep up the awesome work when you are able. I hope you enjoy making these as much as I enjoy watching !
the frenzied flame is the friends we made along the way
AHHHHH MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD
I've always taken it that we play inside Marika's mind. I've started to look at invaders as intrusive thoughts.
Our Vyke, had a bond with the dragons. We know that Lansseax loved him, and Fortissax seems to have accepted him as well, since Vyke can cast Fortissax's Lightning Spear. Vyke didn't want to kill or sacrifice his Maiden, so he went to see the tree fingers. Now, I'm assuming that Lansseax tried to protect Vyke, so he ended up in the Evergoal, and killed his maiden. So, the intrusive thought part, it really just comes down to us finding the maiden, and thinking of what could have happened if Vyke had found his maiden, dead. He would have gone mad, the frenzied flame would have taken over and since he would have seen us, he would have expected us to be the killer.
The same situation can be explained through Edgar. When we last see Edgar, he's mourning the death of his daughter. And when we get attacked by Edgar, it's basically us thinking that Edgar might have gone mad, and maybe even thinks that we may have killed her.
A long time ago, Mad Tongue Alberich was part of the Round Table Hold, but he's an intrusive thought when we jump down the balcony.
Recusant Henricus, who attacks us at one of the shacks, is somebody who was killed by the Volcano Manor. We know this, because the hits placed by the people of Volcano Manor, are on other tarnished. So, also an intrusive thought.
I absolutely love this theory, the idea that these invaders are the intrusive thoughts marikas mind, is such a cool thought!!!! Thank you for sharing this it was a blast to read!!
@@theemeraldgecko310 I would recommend giving the content by TheCenteredTarnished a watch. He's made several videos where he explains how Carl Jung's human psyche concept inspired the world that's created in Elden Ring. I agree with a lot of the material that he's published, but he mainly focusses on trying to connect everything through only Carl Jung's human psyche concept, and I do think that this causes him to miss certain connections or elements regarding world and story elements. But his work is really solid.
I don't know if you've ever played any of the Persona games, Shin Megami Tensei games, the Final Fantasy (7, 8, 9 & 10) games or any of the Hoyoverse games (like Genshin Impact)? I'm sure that people who played any of those games would recognize a lot of the elements used in the Elden Ring story. Where the general core of the story is based on Gnosticism; Sophia's story (The Fall of Sophia). What Elden Ring does really well is also tell the same story through other used references; like Norse, Greek & Egyptian mythology (Tree of life, Tartarus, the Ogdoad, Demiurge), but also through real life structures (like Marika's bed chamber actually being the Roman Pantheon), old alchemical concepts of creating gold & Philosopher's Stone (Ripley Scroll) and operas (like Der Ring des Nibelungen).
So I kinda see the game as the Tokyo's public transport system, where each line basically represents a different source that's used as a reference. Stick to one line, and you'll have a pretty good understanding, but you'll still have questions. The more you know about the other lines, the easier it becomes to puzzle it all together :)
ps. I had posted this much earlier, but I think there was something odd going on, since the comment didn't show but was considered posted.
I always assumed that Vyke still wearing his armor is what made the mark of frenzy less effective than it otherwise would... Not wanting to make the same mistake again the 3 fingers makes you strip before commiting. The fact that he looks like he was grabbed from behind is really interesting and something I had not considered before.
Great video! Vyke is one of the more fascinating characters in that there is much we cannot know about him. I'm glad you mentioned the tendency for Fromsoft to not overlook things - there is so much that is unexplained. One thing in particular is the tendency for Marika/Radigon to have cursed children, and to discard/sacrifice those who 'fail to become aught' at will. There are three overlooked ladies of royalty that share the naming convention of the G and M line. Like Godwyn, Mohg and Morgott there are the Demihuman Queens Gilika, Maggie and Margot. At the head of the Lion Dancer is someone who has the same hands as the Demihuman Queens, the same teeth and facial dimensions, and the same bite/slam attacks as the Demihuman Queens - and the color eyes that match the glintstone sorcery that Maggie was receiving at Hermit Village. Why else would a Demihuman be with the Omen, if they were not part of the same lineage that is entitled to wear that Serosh-like Lion costume? Hard to say, but its something that I haven't seen anyone else cover but there is no way that it was an oversight, particularly since one even has half of Marika's name, and the other two have the M-twin name convention.
Thank you, I’m honestly so glad you enjoyed this one!!! I won’t lie, my knowledge on the Demihuman queens aren’t very extensive, which is on me, but having just read what I’ve just read, next chance I get I’m going into Elden ring and reading up on the demihumans! This is such an incredible theory and I’m shocked no one has thought of it before! Thank you for sharing this here, it’s honestly blown my mind!!!!!
it has always been my theory that he ripped his eye out and cast it aside. The eye became an invader and he was trapt in a gaol
That’s a great theory!!! 100% see this being the case!
I believe that because Vyke was embraced in his armor, thats why he was able to excise his own eye and imprisoned himself in the evergaol. And the fact we need to be naked is because vyke was not naked, and didn't absorb the flame as deeply as he should. Also i noticed that the three fingers fade away completely after we inherit the flame, perhaps thats because the flame was put in someone else and whats left is the last of its power.
And i do think its present vyke in the evergaol, you said the armor isnt an oversight, the fact the armor is still burned and warped in the evergaol tells me its after he inherited the flame. Vykes armor resembles near perfectly the vagobond knight set and the knight set you can get from the twin maiden husks, if they were portraying past Vyke, i think theyd either give him a restored armor set, or have him wear one of those other ones. Another point to the fact the phantom isnt the real vyke, is the bell bearing hunters are all Elemer of the Briar, yet hes still alive to be killed in the shaded castle.
I do like the theory that Vyke killed his own maiden, adding to his own despair. I have a conspiracy that all invaders have something to with arcane power, some invading phantoms include, Mad tongue alberic(who has blood thorn magic) the bell bearing hunters(his sword uses arcane powers) the bloody fingers(obviously blood related) the baleful shadow(i got nothing arcane from this one) Yura the bloody finger hunter,(i believe was a former bloody finger, he chopped off his finger and wants to do the same to eleanora also you can assist him in an invasion* of the ravenmount assassin in raya lucaria) edgar the revenger (he also is frenzy inflicted so perhaps that alone is enough) and vyke himself. That leads me to the conspiracy, what if vyke's downfall started before finding the three fingers, and in the process of becoming a bloody finger, he killed his own maiden, and in regret and despair went to the three fingers, and as you said he got cold feet and tried to turn and run, but was grabbed from behind in his armor. I call it a conspiracy because it takes a lot of points just to come up with a reason he can invade us.
Long ass comment but i like the videos topic.
First of all I want to say you never need to apologise for long comments here!! I can imagine some other people who make fromsoftware content might not appreciate it as much, but if I’m being honest the long comments of people’s thoughts are some of my favourite parts of making these videos :)
Absolutely love these ideas! Totally agree on the evergaol! That was honestly a really big oversight on my part, thank you for bringing it up it hadn’t even crossed my head!!!!
I can really see invasions having something to do with arcane! Fingers crossed we’ll get more stuff to do with it in the dlc! Maybe the invasions are left behind imprints of the past?
Totally love you’re “conspiracy theory” but imo I don’t think it’s a conspiracy theory, I would not be surprised whatsoever if this turned out to be the case!!!!!
Thanks for the amazing comment means the world!
Could it possibly have been a ploy to set Vyke up to be grabbed by the 3 fingers to stop his ascension? In his madness he killed his maiden.
It could be!!! Really like this idea!
His maiden died (my belief) cause he didn't follow the directions by removing all armor before entering
I really like this thought, but can I ask why you think so?
@@theemeraldgecko310 well the way she is sitting, in a chair, like she was waiting on someone and was killed, you brought up a really good point where the marks on his armor shows (what looks like) he changed his mind at the last minute and he ran away, right when the three fingers were going to grab him, probably because someone or something (Shabriri) warned him about his maiden being attacked/killed if he didn't take off his armor, but he was so driven by strength and power, he stayed in his armor (why, I need my armor to help protect me from a god, couldn't tell you honestly) consequences for his actions, Shabriri could have killed his Maiden (while possessing another body atm) I don't know really but Vatti has a really good video about Vykes story in his prepare to cry series
@@nemesisundead83Thank you for taking the time to explain you’re thoughts, they’re truly amazing!!!!! I remember watching that prepare to cry, I absolutely loved it!
A huge reason why I and others really like Subterranean Shunning Grounds, aside from the multiple paths, points of interest, discovery and co-op madness, is because of how it hides lots of hideous things below. Having the three fingers and Godwin's domain just nearby literally shows the corruption the golden order can't seem to eradicate. Vyke was just an unfortunate case of a talented man being corrupted (a la Anakin/Darth Vader) by a force far bigger than anyone could explain.
Not to mention the omens! The subterranean shunning ground is such a good area baring the tunnels bits! It really is like you say, it’s such a huge culmination of all the golden order deems blasphemous, yet they can’t seem to truly rid the world of it. Hadn’t thought of it like that, but you’re totally right, it’s straight out of Star Wars lmao!
I think the Vyke in the evergaol is the current Vyke in that he still has the three finger prints on his armor and the fact he was in the mountaintops indicates he was on his way to burn the erdtree after attaining the frenzy. Why he doesn’t use any frenzy here tho is still a mystery.
Vyke is the main character of Dark Souls 1-3.
If this turns out to be the case I think I might have an aneurysm, if I never upload again that’s why
@@theemeraldgecko310 the reddit thread I got that from just about did the same to me 😂
@@sk8legendzI feel like I’m about to hit 101 insight
My understanding is the invader NPC fights are kind of dream state/out of time manifestations of the people, while the Evergaol fights are those people who were trapped in a timeless state when they went inside. With that rationale, the Evergaol Vyke is the one who actually did all the historical stuff, while the one outside the church is more of a phantom/memory/recreation/alternate dimension version. 🤷♀️
The Evergaol version, who was burned by the Three Fingers after rejecting the Frenzied Flame refuses to use those powers and reverts to his dragon communion abilities.
I hadn’t ever heard of this theory before this video, but as you and a few others have mentioned, phantoms are more most likely manifestations, I love this theory beyond belief!
Interesting. I hope the Dlc reveals more lore on this character. Peace
God me too, vyke is one of my favourite characters of Fromsoftwares games, I neeeeeeed more
Bernal went even further than vyke
How does one die when the rune of death was stolen?
If you mean before us, the golden order stole the rune of death and controlled it so death would not come to their own, if you mean when we kill Maliketh we unleash it into the world we don’t actually “steal” it like Maliketh says :)
Timeline:
- Chad Vyke renown for abilitys and even has a lady dragon sidechick he "communes" with.
- Vyke gains 2 lord souls and gets ready to enter erdtree to become elden lord.
- his maiden informs him of sacrifice needed to open the way.
- Vyke dosnt want to lose his maiden and thus looks for another way.
- Shabriri informs vyke of another way to save his maiden/gain entree to erdtree theough frenzied flame.
- vyke makes deal with 3 fingers but regrets decision and before losing himself to madness locks himself in the mountaontop of giants evergaol to stop himself.
- Vykes maiden commits suicide ( either before or after this > if before then vyke went to 3 fingers as last resort > if killed afterwords, maiden loses hope as vyke has lost himself to the frenzied flame kills herself out of dishonour and lost purpose ).
- the tarnished finds vyke imprisoned in evergaol and puts him out of his misery.
Vyke's armor in the evergaol has the fingerprints on them, it means he managed to escape the influence of shabriri through dragon communion. he was probably jailed for siding with the dragons.
Oooooooo! I love this! Silly mistake on my part, it hadn’t clicked into my head about his armour in the evergaol!
Im still so pissed frenzy spells snd the frenzy seal dont scale from mind they consume absurd FP and resisting insanity is definitely a "mind" quality.
I hadn’t ever thought of this, but you’re completely right! Fingers crossed the dlc will add this, though I am doubtful
@theemeraldgecko310 I'd like to think so buuuuuut ..... I doubt it from soft has never been quick to make obvious changes lol
@theemeraldgecko310 I've got another dozen common sense changes like that In mind. there's so much clunkiness to the game that was completely avoidable
I know I know but a guy can hope lmao
I think there’s a charm to some of that, but things like frenzy scaling off mind would be a really cool addition!
Maybe the dragons know something about warding outer gods since none seem to follow any and you need to go to big dragon arena in sky to make miquellas needle
Maybe vykes dragon lover, after he freaks out on the maiden, cures him and he jails himself for the crime of murder
I think his maiden killed herself. Her duty and purpose was to die. She probably felt like she could not escape her fate. Or worse felt like she failed to do the one thing she thought she was put on that world to do.
Thank you! I made a Reddit post about how it looks like he was grabbed from behind so thank you!
You’re welcome!!! It’s honestly such an important detail that seems to have gone massively under the radar! I was watching a few days ago and the topic of vyke got brought up and it all clicked into place!
NOT THE COLD FEET ending in coercion 🤣😂🤣😂
This bit TOOK ME OUT…
You are so funny and so cute and so clever! I always feel like when I have a listen to your videos I’m tuning in to get the tea from the lands between. I adore you. 🤣😂💜💜💜
The cold feet bit truly sent me! Thank you. You’re a MF diamond!💎
Glad you enjoyed it 🤣😂 so many lore videos are just pure information, which isn’t necessarily bad, but I guess when you do that style of content you don’t get to be yourself? So I’m glad my approach is enjoyableeee, I know some people have had problems with it in the past :)
Horfrost stomp has got absolutely nothing on vyke
I often thought about why Vyke's armor has the fingerprint of the three fingers and what that means... I think maybe no one knew you had to singe your own flesh but when Vyke fails to become the Lord of Frenzy flame, somehow afterward it became known for a Lord of Frenzy to rise, that their flesh had to be seared. So, the three fingers are put behind a door that won't open until you're nakey so the Three Fingers can grab you and singe the flesh.
Great thoughts!!! I was thinking along the same lines, so many possibilities, but I think that’s what I love most about these games
Ur a boss at baseless speculation 😅