Pontiac 455 First Start and REAL-TIME Flat Tappet Camshaft Break In
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- How to break in a flat tappet camshaft. Done in real-time. This was the most intense 15 minutes ever!
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The amount of awesome youtubers stuffed into the first 40 seconds of this video puts a smile to my face...
That is true.
Bro seriously!! It's crazy that one guy talking about the cool cool chambers is in the video with deboss. It's a small world.
If the motor has to stop during break in then all is not lost. Just shut it down being careful to not let it idle.
Fix the leak/charging system/interference etc etc then re start and continue like it is the 1st start. A master engine builder told me that and indeed I have had cause to switch a motor off during cam break in a couple of times over the years and the camshaft and lifters were fine.
What amazes me is oil, just think how many metal on metal areas there is in an engine and a film of oil is what keeps them apart.
This exact thing happened when I fired up my rebuilt 400 in my Lemans. Crank was hitting the windage tray. Some thick washers fixed it. Not happy about pulling the engine, but it all worked out.
It is nice when so many car guys are talking.
The explanation at the beginning of this video is excellent, thank you.
Nice to see a couple of guys i follow here...intense, great job guys.........
I had 2 flat tappet camshafts go flat on my Nova during break in , the 3rd cam I just went retro-roller on my sbc. I have a Holley on my sbc and when my cam went flat it backfired through the carb.
EDIT: I just saw the previous vid, so it looks like your cam survived :)
Omg.. that break in. Lol
Soo.. worry about timing and fuel till after cam is broke in?
if it's too far off you can melt things/catch fire during break in or overheat quickly, they should have set it with "static" method beforehand, crank at TDC/advance you want, wires off plugs, timing light and crank dist against normal rotation until it blinks and bam your close ;)
Zip tie garage!!!!!#!!#!!!##!! Lol
At 20:36 sounds BAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man those 15 minutes were INTENSE
Yeah definitely I’ve never been that particular about breaking in a engine. Just watching it is stressful. But it makes sense on a car as nice as this one to take the extra precautions. Awesome job!
Wheres your fast idle stick?
If Rich had hair to pull out, it would have happened there.
Awesome video. Thanks for the uncut full cam break in. Just goes to show that in a garage assembling and fabricating is one thing, but the stress of it coming together and everybody giving 100% to keep it smooth is another. Gear heads are another breed, and make me proud.
Put the Oil pressure gauge under the wiper blade, look ma no hands.
That oil pressure gauge just screamed shade tree mechanic. Never use anything but copper tube it you do not want to get burned
There's nothing like 5 guys standing around giving opinions :)
DUMB!
HotRodding seems to be complicated. You first need to ruin a hotel room and then have 5dudes pouring water over an engine and then you can drive. I also drank the blood of 5 virgins while watching
@@SuperHessu555 , the consensus of all those opinions was - "when you get it home, take it apart and see what's making all that noise". Lots of folks helping to put it together (right or wrong), nobody helping to take it apart to fix it.
:o)
Yep. but, the guy in the black t-shirt seems to have the Best ones 👍😉
EVERYBODY GOT A ANSWER
Man reminds me of when I broke in my RAM AIR III cam on my 69 GTO. I was just about done on time when the lower radiator hose let loose and blew steam all up in the garage. Also I had forgotten to tighten the Starter Positive battery cable all the way down so during the break in it vibrated loose and all that current caught the cable on fire. All I knew from the drivers seat I heard a load bang, steam and smoke poring out from under the hood and I shut the motor down and grabbed the garden hose and put the fire out. After shaking like a leaf for 20 minutes thinking I had almost burned my GTO the ground and my home with it, I finally calmed down. The good part is all I had to do was replace the GM Stock Tower clamp as this was a partial restoration, and the battery cable. I put water in it and it fired right up. I still have that GTO and Short block I built back in the mid 90's in my GTO today, and it runs fine. Yep I know that sinking feeling so well. The lesson I learned was triple check everything, especially those hose clamps. MOST IMPORTANTLY never start a newly rebuild engine in an enclosed garage. Always take it out to the driveway in open air. Sad as it was a guy a few blocks away had and 1967 Grand Prix Convertible and it caught fire too in his garage and burnt his house to the ground, along with his newly un-insured $25,000.00 Grand Prix. Sniff Sniff. Thanks for sharing Rich I was on pins and needles the whole time. Probably just like you were. Don't forget to put the rear alternator bracket back on. Oh PS one bank on the Pontiac V8's do run hotter. The reason is there is an extra water jacket hole on one side and not on the other. I think the extra hole is on the passenger side, I don't remember. Do a little research and you'll find it, if not just put the head gaskets on the block and look for the water hole on the other side of the gasket that's not drilled. Drill the hole out the same as the other side and that will help some. I did it on mine years ago. Best Wishes & Blessings. Keith Noneya.
Keith Noneya - cool
That was great! Junkyard Digs nailed the problem pretty quick. I betcha that was the best powertour any of those guys had including Eric. It's one thing to show off but totally another to be able to help out using your hard won knowledge.
Shout out to Vice Grip Garage! Well I'll be dipped.
I just finished helping a friend pull a worn out 350 SBC and a TH350 out of his 72 chevelle wagon.
I wish I had the space and money to do this myself. I’d be broke in no time.
Edit:typo fix.
broke in cam on an 1835CC vw engine on buggy with open exhaust at apartment complex garage once, they were NOT impressed with us the least bit...
after normal hours and they maint. guys phone and pager were ringing non stop, of course he couldn't here it standing right there along side :))
@@TRX450RVlogger what's wrong with vw engines when they own a ton of unique ones
i'm not sure if im excited or scared to break my build in now! thanks lol
Is that a deutz in the background rich???? Glorious machines one of my favourite brands to work on. Ps loving the series keep up the great content and longer vids respect from NZ
I pegged the engine temp gauge during my break in. I was freaking out until I realized I had a big air bubble in my coolant. My break in was by no means perfect. Shut the truck off 3 different times. But 800 miles since the break in so far and the engine runs great! No tac either.
Cole Knoernschild my dad had a flat tappet 350 and it overheated during break in and we did half one day and the other half the next day because the fumes were bad. But it runs perfect and have no problems so far 300 miles after break in
@@landonbbrackett9550 just sold that truck I can swapped. Over 4k since the swap, ran great, and didn't need to reset the lash either. Did an oil change, nothing on the plug.
real time? what happened to fake time?
I had to break in a 460 single handed years ago. This video stresses me out.
Nice gathering of automotive youtubers :) I'm still happy by how many new people you've introduced to me that I can now watch :) Maybe one day I can make videos on the levels of all yall haha.
I don't have any friends guess I'll just tow my car to a shop for the breakin
This "in the weeds" explanation of cam break-in is why I so enjoy your channel. Well done buddy!
How many guys does it take to break in a cam geez man ! lmao? they are worried about cam break-in .. they need to worry about putting the motor under a load and sealing the rings with all that blow by out of the breather ..... the hell with the cam .
I personally think the absolute most important and often overlooked gauges a guy can have is an oil temp gauge. Oil temp will reflect possible internal damage far before coolant temp.
That being said I'll be assembling a 430 Buick big block for my 68 GS soon. I'll be sure to double check that windage tray/crank relationship without fail now. Good video. Not many people understand how nerve wracking a cam break-in truly can be. Especially if you have no source of running water and depend on buckets and jugs when things start to get hot.
Nice attempt! Its great to have so many guys helping out to make this rebuild happen. Unfortunately, it also allows for more mistakes and assumptions to occur.
I remember Gas Monkey Garage killing many cams in their show. Eventually their builder refused to let them start an engine without him being present to break in the engine properly.
There used to NEVER be this kind of stress breaking in a flat tappet cam. This must mean that even with "break in" oil that has loads of ZDDP in it, these flat tappet cam and lifters are not made to the standards that were in place back in the 70s 80s and 90s. They are way too fragile and not up to the old standards. Why did they not just quit making them 20+ years ago? Someone should start a class action lawsuit against all these cam companies that sell these time bombs . They are junk that cost people a lot of $$$ and labor in destroyed engines.
Wow, when it came time to get it cranked and running up high it only took 14 hands to get it done! 7 frickin guys running around. How many of them worked for a manufacturer of engine components?
Well none of you convinced me you know what you are doing. The car should never have gotten that hot. Those motors normally had 160 degree thermostats
Done this before use the heater to help cool tin Indians run hot
I hear a rattling noise....maybe sheet metal in contact with rotating assembly??? Guess I will wait and see.
How do you balance the need to break in a cam with the need to seat the rings
Can you go to high load work after cam breakin and theey still seat fine or is 20 mins enough for the cyl walls to glaze over and ruin your chances of good compression
Did you ever see John force break in a cam or seat the rings. Ha ha it does not happen. If you have the correct oil pressure the lifters will spin. If they do not you did something wrong.
@@giles-df9yu correct .
I will not fast forward,
I will not fast forward,
I will not fast forward....
The 2300rpm is to make sure the cam gets lots of oil that is slung from the rods.
I like how the guy from vice grips garage can read a face and know when to be quiet.
A hotel room build is a fool's errand. No place and no time to be assembling critical fit parts. You know the outcome at best will last a couple thousand miles and you really just wasted time. I get the hot rodding spirit , but pack it up, go home and regroup. Rebuild it properly, take your time and come back stronger next year. When you're a top fuel dragster team rebuilding in the pits between rounds, it's a different story.
Front cover, intake and oil pan are not critical fit. It takes an hour to pull the engine, and we made memories to last a lifetime
This is mostly repeat footage.
Why is nothing ever said about new cars and cam break in. I had never heard of it until the last say 20 years. Back in the '60s I had an "code" 401 hp Ford and a couple 350 Camaros all with 4 speed trans and solid lifter cams and nothing was ever done about cam break in. I think we would have put it in the same park as muffler fuel.
Probably because new cars do not use high pressure valve springs and hi lift cams. And what modern car uses flat tappets? I do know what you are saying though. Even years ago I doubt they did this to new engines at the factory. Back in 85 I did use this type of break in on my mild build 289. And I used regular 10w40 oil. Nothing special.
I would do it different if I had to do it again. No break in like this and I would use a good quality synthetic oil. The engine would get broke in on the road running it hard right away.. Just my opinion but I think this type of break in is BS and not necessary.
most everything went "factory" roller lifter by early to mid 90's, the ones that didn't are overhead cam setups with followers/rockers and other methods.
Agree i think its some myth
My experience from my younger days dictates that flat lifters all need to be radius ground (if I remember, about half a thou only radius). It is this radius grinding that ensures rotation of the lifter. And of course special run in oil is always recommended (high in zinc specifically) not your you beat synthetic race oil normally used. You can run the engine at idle for a short period (couple of minutes) to check for leaks, then come up to the cam break in speed for the rest of the process.
15:37 shows fire or spark at the exhaust manifold on passenger side. Anyone else catch that?
either an exhaust leak and you are seeing "fire" or that's a view down through into the back side of "flexplate" sure they didn't have the inspection pan on since trans was loose because of no clearance
**EDIT seen it at different parts of timeline, it's for sure the back side of flexplate and if there's lightening holes the converter also, it's just dancing around due to rpm and camera frame rates.
Dunno if you follow any sort of script but the way you explain things is really impressing me
All the youtube greats in one video 😄
Junkyard Digs and Thunderhead289 knows what's up. I'm going on Power Tour next time I need to rebuild an engine lol.
2 of my favorite youtube mechanics!
I bought myself a 1967 GTO when I got back from Vietnam in 1968....Nicest car I ever owned !
Gold Colored ...ran like a raped Ape !
I melted a oil line off trying to break in a cam. Let’s just say the fire was fun.
This is stressful currently 10 minutes in
Man, I don't know if the camera audio picks it up, but that rattle sounds nasty but not real harmful.
Are those the cam lobes and flat tappets making that noise?
@@MrDrBlahh no, its the crank counterweight barely tapping the windage tray.
@@mdavidson101 Ah okay. Appreciate the response! Sure didnt sound too good.
@@MrDrBlahh I reply to most comments under mine, especially if I can help! Plus it increases social interaction for the channel, helping them get more views.
Dude in the dark red shirt just out of the blue tells rich"WE" think it's running on seven, who's "WE" buddy??? Diggs nailed it,Dude knows his shit,that's for sure.
That’s gotta be nerve racking.
Dude in the red shirt was aggravating the crap out of me. When you control oil psi data for the driver YOU DO NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!
Solid cam break in, the most fear filled few minutes of any engine builder or shade-tree's life.
Last one i did was in a 65 VW Baja with a built 2185cc 225hp flat four. Thing ate 5 gallons of fuel in the 20 minute break in at 2500rpm, carbs where out of wack but the bitch ran on the first try so we sent it.
Holy shit, is that ThunderHead289?!
Jesus this is stressful to watch...
I have to laugh at the high mass being made over the cam break-in. I have built/rebuilt well over a thousand performance engines (When you dirt tracks race and drag race in the south you build and rebuild a lot of engines) in reality probably more and who knows how many in the “junk” I was driving every day. When I grew up and you bought a new to you car the first thing I think we all did regardless of how good or bad the engine ran was yank it out and rebuild it. Something those rebuilds were nothing more than rings, bearing and seals and of course a “valve job” then sometimes it meant hundreds and thousands of dollars on the classic blueprint and balance rebuild. Where I came from if you said your engine had hydraulic lifters you got called all sorts of names that are not allowed to be used because it might hurt some snowflakes feelings. Anyway I think I growing up all my friend and I started learning how to adjust valves on engines when we were old enough to stand on a milk crate and see/reach the engine. Looking back I get a laugh because I think all my buddies all had the valve covers off our engines about every week or two to check and adjust the valves because someone three counties away phoned the house and say they thought they heard a intake valve ticking on the left caliber as we one of us drove by at 90mph in the middle of the night. As for the breaking in of cams I still have my small block and big block “break in” springs along with my spring compressor, 10 feet of greased cotton rope to hold the valve up if an air compressor wasn’t available to use the compression tester hose. I remember one buddy hated using the greased rope to hold the valve up when swapping the “break in springs” to “engine springs” had fabricobbled a spark plug tire inflator to use recon tank and compression tester hose. Anyway the point of my ramblings is I think except for NASCAR engines and some dirt track racing classes the flat tapped/mechanical lifter has gone the way of the dodo bird, points and condenser ignition, and drum brakes so when anybody uses them the high mass to the gods of speed past and present must be said. Lastly with the amount of money spent on this build I question that there was not $400 bucks more for a set of Butler performance drop in roller lifters unless of course that Rich just wanted that cool mechanical lifter sound.
Like 289 said, rods would be hanging and the center part (mains) would be well all one solid how to weld steel and cast steel and make it hold/LOL. He held his ground and good for him. I like his channel also. Sadly, I think your Pony is addicted to engine swaps/pulls. Try to get some miles on it like go door to door selling tape measures/ouch.... that was low but hang Rich, your smarter than ten other claim to be's with sponsors and a unlimited "patreon" account plus dads silver spoon that has never been found!!!! I love yer stuff man. I pray you make it big cause you don't whine and wheres the cheese... Canadians are tough and I am from/still are alaska
So what was the diagnosis ?
My brother and me installed a bunch of different cams . We let them run at 2000 to 2400 RPMs for about fifteen minutes. They all performed like they should. Good job guys
That sound might be that alternator that's bouncing around and not charging. RPM of that rattle is about the same. 14:09
Is this a hydraulic cam?
I have never seen, heard of, or done this. What are your thoughts Luke ( Thunderhead 289 ) ?
Looking at the hands over face through the windshield at the start of the episode makes me nervous to watch this episode
And yeah it was tense
What are the cam spec's
What kind of oil?
nothing wrong with flat tappet, just be sure to use good oil with lots of ZDDP in it or it wont last long
This is why I love doing break ins on diesels. Even on the old mechanical injected engines, the governors are rpm sensitive. You adjust the throttle to whatever rpm you want, and the governor will keep it there. No need to sit there with your foot on the throttle trying to hold it where you want it
While your explanation of the break in procedure is possible and very likely part of the reason it is done that way, the real reason is that the cam is lubed by splash oil from the escaping pressurized oil from the connecting rods, the rpm ensures that the splash oil reaches the cam at that critical time to initiate the lifters turning. Or that is what I was told about it
Poor Rich, he looked really stressed during this process. I've run into the same problem myself with the heads on ARP con rod bolts being just a little bit taller than the stock ones, and hitting the sump pan as a result.
A fella can almost hear them lifters not grinding away on the cam. You just need to test on it for about 20 min. Burnouts are key for break in.
19:02 "Plethora"
Roller cam !! No break in lol or go way the other way n solid lifter it if they still even have those anymore ????
This is what i like real situations and real life setbacks ,i have lived this many times its almost like being a detective in mechanics to solve issues
When I stuffed my 455 in a Delta 88 the dip stick decided to slap the crank.
I think Rich's channel is one of the better auto channels , with that said I'm concerned about the survival of the cam due to how long it took to get it to start in the first place.
Rich doesn’t look very happy while filming this episode..
So awesome to see such earnest honest people troubleshooting a problem like that. You guys have a great community
Rod bolts hate wintry is what i thanking pull pan and see if im right sir
I watched yall build this in the motel and sneak it in there under suit cases
upgrade to a roller camshaft Rich!
Heck ya man!! Thrash it man !
3:18 Are there any other upsides/downsides to rollers vs flat tappet? I'm not building an engine or anything, just curious
i'm no expert, but I was always told a roller is for more aggressive cam profiles. also, the theory of less friction = more power
The older guys around here swear by flat tappets, simply because there are less moving parts.( and these dudes love the chop). Now these old guys are probably talking about old motors, so i'm probably no help in finding you an answer sorry :)
Roller cams have less friction= less wear and rolling resistance. The only real downside to roller cams is the cost of retrofitting into an engine that didnt come with one from the factory.
Fords started with them in the early 80's and they ran forever, now LS engines are doing the same thing. Gm wouldn't install them in all their engines if flat tapped was a better choice...just my opinion.
Thanks guys. Sounds like rollers are generally preferred but the retrofit can be expensive on older heads. And of course the old timers like what they like. Thanks for responding. I'm about to delete the oil cooler on my S10(4.3l v6 2wd), the lines are always leaking and it never overheats. I'm better off deleting that and adding a cooler to the 4l60e trans it's mated to.
tower rollers have been in sbcs before the ls.
That was intense. it really was like a surgery. what a great group of guys
I dont know why but i always feel like the wipe lobe thing is a myth...or harder to do than it sounds. I know i dont have experience with it though. Just seems odd that is xan be so touchy but then after break in by fine for 300,000 miles. How did engine builders ever figure out the break in thing? Isnt it more that the metal gets hardened by burnishing?
I mean back in the day did auto manufacturers break in the engines on the assembly line or something?
What wipes out a cam lobe is a poor cam or generally excessive spring pressures . This cam break in stuff is a total myth .
@@deanwitt7903 Why would millions of hot-rodders do it if it's a myth then? And don't give me the whole 50's and 60's cars argument, I've already seen that from you. Just curious what you think about it.
I've always wondered how the big three, Ford, GM. Chrysler broke in the cams in the millions of V8's with flat tappet cams that were built over what? Almost 5 decades. Surely they didn't run all those millions of engines at 2500 rpm for 15 or 20 minutes before the car was shipped off to a dealership.
EXACTLY. And the level of zinc in today's oil is that of the 1960s. There is a serious quality problem with cam/lifter manufacturers these days.
@@Thirdgen83 Thanks but i"m still wondering how they broke in those millions of hydraulic lifter/ cams back in the day.
@@bigbilltoady412 They didn't.
@@Thirdgen83 I've waiting for years for a satisfactory answer to my question. This one isn't one of them. If the cam's weren't broken in then they would be destroyed which obviously would have resulted in cars not being sold because the engines were junk. All hydraulic cams that I have installed new and to this day require a 20 minute break in period of at least 1800 to 2000 continuous rpm with the cam coated with break in lubrication. How did the big three get around that in the millions they sold with this type of valve train over the about 50 years of them using hydraulic lifter cam shafts??? I seriously doubt they did that on every motor but something had to be done so the cam would not be ruined right away in a new motor. Still waiting for someone to fill me in on this one.
@@bigbilltoady412 Flat-out NOT true. They started them up and drove them.
Flex plate to converter bolts? And a valve readjustment
i really appreciate how real you guys kept the process and never gave up. good stuff!
Can't wait to see what he finds. Hope it is easily remedied.
Are cam break ins a thing for diesels too?
Why not just do this at night on the open road ?
I have no idea how you would do that on your own. What a great team effort by everyone!
high anxiety thumping heart beat for sure !
I thought that guy was SaabKyle for a sec
Thank You for your time showing this !!!!
Sheesh I need to do that too! Thanks for the reminder!