"Change one thing on a grappler and they can be incredibly dominant- ruin a game actually." Okay I need some actual proof of this. With stats and not just anecdotes from people who got their cheeks clapped online. Grappler hate in FG is insane lol.
It really is. Lariat should at least be able to stop crossovers. I'd feel better with that alone. And the fact that you can be basic thrown out of an SPD is ludicrous! It's a special move! Why they decided to put throw loops in the game is beyond me. Talk about something that requires no skill. But sure, grapplers can't be good.
@@fordy5788 Did grapplers really run that wild in SF4? Were they winning everything? I remember Yun being an absolute busted monster and Evil Ryu deleting life-bars..
The only game I could think of with a busted grappler that actually got playtime was original AC Potemkin. Something about crazy loops into his equivalent of SPD with pressure to keep a guessing game going on oki. No one near me played him - so I never got to experience first hand - but there should be videos on UA-cam to prove it. GG is crazy enough that it wouldn't kill the game though.
We mentioned this during the show, but during SSF4 Arcade Edition, Gief was made into a top 3 character, right behind Yun and Yang, and he was winning tournaments left and right and had people placing very consistently high in tournaments until he was toned down a bit in v2012. Also similar things happened in the SF2T era when Gief has his VERY fast and great Kick Lariat move. Also, R. Mika and Laura in SF5, when they were both considered high tier characters, but were later nerfed. Capcom has also specifically cited stuff about grapplers being too strong directly to us as that being a problem for a game's balance, due to how they play.
one question, especially to the guy on the right side of the screen why is it alright to have someone like ken to be on top of the food chain in almost every game. and why should you not let a grappler to be at high tier once? you said gief was too good in sf4, but he was at upper mid tier at best, and you think upper mid tier is broken already? yes, snake eyez won a CPT qualifier, so what, it was him carrying gief, using and understanding all universal mechanics, and that's all him and i am sure he could have done much better with another char
That dude on the right side HATES GRAPPLER to his bones. Nobody is talking about nerfing DP, which can punish cross-up and anti-air and they also have a fireball !!!! He knows that gief on neutral is shit, he has nothing to attack. Everything Gief does is HIGH RISK compared to other. All his specials are punishable. But we do not have to buff him. How many players played gief in sf4 ae? Stop your hate man.
I did! Gief from SF4 was good, but he wasn't the best character in the game. Having the green glove and a lariat that protects from crossovers was great. He was truly fun to play
@@thereviewartistrrp5493 he cannot people on corner. He has weak normal and special that give him advantage comparing to other characters. Not even frame trap normal. If he miss SPD, that's is 30% of you health gone. You have to read future to play gief. If not, you done.
Nice job of mentioning the psychology of other characters fighting against the grapplers - you know they don't have good defensive tools, so you can just be braindead with your attacks knowing that they can't counter. I wish Capcom would just balance the game and make grapplers just as good as everyone else. I was disappointed by the comment made that Lariat shouldn't be changed. It should absolutely stop crossovers. It always has and Zangief literally has no defense against it in SF6.
I'm saying the same, he is completely wrong, I basically don't use Lariat against any pressure, because it always loses. I only use it to maybe stop people from getting out of the corner, but it also doesn't really work, because they do a neutral jump, and then have long seconds to punish. He saying Lariat should suck makes me want to unsubscribe just because how wrong he is.
Great episode as always. Grapplers definitely got the short end of the stick in this game. They have the worst defense, the worst drive rushes, and drive reversal seems the most effective against them. While zoners create a minefield to get through, have amazing normals, and when you do get in on them they have incredible defensive options. Even as a Manon player, I think it's healthy we don't get true oki off of our command grabs like older games, but grapplers need something in exchange. I think it's completely backwards that you want to be right next to a grappler on wakeup, but have to worry about getting hit by an OD reversal from a majority of the cast. Marissa is in the sweet spot that the grapplers should be in as well as far as power level.
Amazing in depth discussion about the intricacies of defense. I know I’m not the only one searching for more content with an analytical approach to breaking down the game
[IMO] Manon: The most interesting part of discussions about rebalancing Manon is that almost everyone leaves out that she has something super unique for a grappler... She has 2 buttons that PULL people into CG range. That me that is ultimate proof that Capcom intends Manon, a dancer, to be a Queen of footsies - that she wants to keep them at 'arms length' and when the time is right, flip the script and pull them in closer instead of pushing them away. I think a better tool to create and maintain distance is needed... she really needs something to get people off her (almost like a very low dmg push) and her twirl needs another active frame of projectile invincibility (or two) and definitely needs to go a little further, because it way, way to easy tp space her. Gief: He straight up tells the player in World Tour that to be like him you need to take a shit ton of punishment and when the time is right, explode out and destroy your enemies. I think Geif needs something that is a little bit better at 'circut breaking' long DI chains, even at a resource cost. People need to be a little more scared that at any moment he just say "No more games". Lilly: I think its safe to say that Lily was envisioned to be a character that it doesnt matter where she is on the screen, if she wants in, shes coming in. I think the entire design is based on the idea you have tools that makes your opponents never feel like they're safe, or "at a good range" - At any moment you can "cash out " and be in their face. Part of the issue here is that everyone is kinda like that, because DI is too cheap (IMO), but she also is just too costed when she does decide "fuck it, well ball". You can probably do wonders for her by adjusting resource costs. This is aside from actually fixing her. .. she is probably the only character in the game that I think doesn't work as intended in many scenarios (as discussed).
Manon target combos really suck. They lose to DI and just give her a few plus frames, now Manon has to guess to open the opponent up, whereas anyone else in that situation would have an actual combo.
@@libertyprime9307 - agreed, I personally really struggle to make them work... thought I do think I see what they are 'supposed' to do. They aren't that amazing, but I do think they should be central to her play because they are unique in a sense. Here's hoping season 2 is kinder to us!
I will never understand why people say grapplers need to have such low defense. While at the same time feeling zoners need high defense. Why should Guile and JP have every option in the game while gief lilly and manon have 1 maybe and a throw lv 3. Guile and JP are much more toxic to new players thant Zangief. Good players have shown that they cant deal with Jp fireballs, how are new players supposed to? I feel Marisa would harm new players 10x more than even a buffed Zangief
@newwick Yes that's unfortunate, but in games like Under Night and Blaze blue, the zoner sim equivalent in Vatista and Nu-13 have tons of defense while being oppressive zoners. But they still never give their grappler a defensive option
@@johnguerrero4546 Nonsense - of course we are talking about good players playing these characters though. Zangief won't be able to touch JP. He's too slow and you'll have to gamble just to get close to him.
“Dhalsim’s defense sucks” Sorry, are you a master Dhalsim? Have you fought against Dhalsims in master? His defense absolutely does not suck more than Gief’s
geifs were not dominating top 8s in sf4 you are kidding me. i miss being afraid of grapplers, seems like rushdown is all that plays in street fighter for the past 3 games with the rare exception of a high caliber zoner, and that's not usually until the end of the format when all the rushdown has been normalized and the best few zoners aren't endlessly mixed by cammy or yun
These guys don't even know the game. Zangief's level 3 is not invincible. Ken can DP him out of it. And how in the world is Gief being low tier good for the game? Shouldn't every character be on the same tier for balance? You essencially are saying that you don't want the game to be balanced.
Dude I'm thinking the same thing. The only thing even close to a response that wasn't retarded gurgling was someone pointing out Laura and R. Mika in SFV which was insane to me. First of all Laura has a projectile and a DP how is she a pure grappler? Then you got Mika who skips neutral with insane command normals/specials and only really pulls out the throws once she has you on the backfoot and EVEN THEN neither of them was "dominant" nor did they "ruin" SFV- SFV was already objectively terrible regardless.
@@zagonzal While I agree with the grappler comments. I think another silly comment is this idea that SFV was bad. I haven't heard any good reasons for this.
@@Arctanis-vt3hl Nah man I gotta disagree there. SFV was complete ass. S1 had Nash winning CC because of his advantages from insane input lag, then the rootkit, having move-sets gutted and neutered for the V-system, Bengus' rushed art, Crush Counter priority system was garbage, +2 -2 +2 -2 +2 -2 +2 -2, Proximity blocking radius made Laura braindead with projectile set-ups, really lame newcomers, the list goes on and on. I could barely stay awake through the final Capcom Cup for it. It was abysmal.
21:51 what the hell are you talking about? Lariat Anti-Air? Lariat always gets beaten by any move that can cross up, and most delayed or quick stuff, it really sucks badly.
"To help christen the new fighter's arrival, four of South Korea's best GBVS players put together a week 1 tier list for Rising coming from EGO|YuSeongCha, DN7, Jubim and Matthew." 1 of the south korean player is calls himself Matthew......-_- Boring ASS NAME bruh :P HAHA OOPS
About buffing Drive Reversal, if you do that (seems fair) it wont buff these characters. The rich usually just get richer with another option, thats what happened with vshift as well. If you want to buff the Drive Reversal of these 3 (and aki) by a few start up frames, that would do much more for their balance IMO. Atleast so that it will knock down medium buttons.
Proposed changes for GIef: -only EX lariat hits cross up -Level 1 can hit grounded or airborne. Speed up startup as well. Bam viable reversal. (Have him slam someone into the air and do the airborne part of the super) -? -profit
@@OscarMikeFGC No, it's a throw lol. You can't block it. Unless you propose changing it to a strike in which case you'd have to revamp the whole animation.
@@DrSwazzno you wouldnt. Android 16s 214H grab in dbfz is very similar, and was given a low hit>AA grab buff at one point. so it antiairs fine, and also hits standing blockers right into the same grab animation. no animation change needed in either case
@@DrSwazz Capcom can easily do that. They added a whole ass new move to Ryu years into SFV. His donkey kick. They can surely make it a strike with a new animation for grounded opponents.
One thing that I think would help the grapplers tremendously both in defensive and oki situations would be having a handful of super armor frames on their command grabs (like frames 1 - 4 or 5, double that for OD versions). They still take damage if hit, and are still wide open if they get predictable with them, but it gives them something that can badly punish sloppy or mindless offenses that would be useful for fighting out of the corner or adding a whole new dimension to wake-up games.
Bruh what do you have parry for? The only three stooges I see in this video are the guys talking in it, because they don't know what they're talking about. Why do so many people think you have to play all the characters the same way.. a fast jab can be parried and blocked.
I don't get the sentiment that grapplers should be weaker than anyone else. Like nobody is arguing to make them OP. Personally I love playing against grapplers except Lily because she can be annoying. Gief is easily my favorite character to fight. It feels like fighting a boss character. I do agree grapplers should need to choose between oki and a command grab though, it makes sense design wise that you should need to earn your way back in after a command grab.
To be honest, I think that the entire grappler archetype needs a rework. If they are not fun when they are good, we should just take the L and redesign them completely - rather than keep them in this very crippled state where they're barely able to do anything.
That's sort of what they did in SF6 with taking away their oki and making them more about getting multiple hits instead of vortexing to death, but there's definitely still a palpable divide between their archetype and others.
@@EventHubs Right, the idea was to make them have to win more "honest" neutral interactions before winning. Perhaps a good idea in a vacuum, but they did this in a game where a large number of characters routinely DR to skip the neutral. Grapplers of course are the exceptions to that. And poor Lily, who cheats that neutral the best out of them, got overcompensated for in many other ways. When I think about it, grapplers got straight up nerfed and didn't really get too much in return (more combo damage, I guess), so it's no wonder they are doing so poorly.
Main problem I’ve always had against buffing drive reversal is that guile would instantly be the best character in the game if it gets implemented. Not sure how to fix lacking defensive characters but for manon just nerf her overheads and then give her a reversal.
That's why all characters should be on the same tier. It's not fair for Ken, JP and Luke to be S tier while others aren't. Combo characters aren't fun either.
Marisa also lacks in all of these options, no lights that go into a “real” combo, can’t even DRC a light into a combo. Bad/unreliable Anti airs. Lvl 1 super is throwable. No DP, has to rely on armored stance which can be thrown. Tick throws are even better vs her than a lot of the cast. Only good normal to stop DR is st.mp? Maybe one more I’m not remembering, but that button is too slow a lot of the time to beat a DR. I’d have her instead of Manon due to her having good AAs and a lvl 1 invincible super. But not a huge gap imo.
Those are her only combos that dont start off of a 6 frame jab TC that has to be CH confirmed. All other characters have more they can get from their 4 frames. In which the context of this was about defensive 4 frame combo starters, I feel that only having these poor dmg light confirms means that her defense suffers for it compared to others who can go from a light into a "real" combo (w/ drive bar or w/o depending on character). @@joncliffmckinley5868
Here's a weird thought. Shouldn't grapplers be better at defending against, say, grapples from others? I know throws are often leverage based but someone who literally wrote the book on wrestling should know of something to do about them. Maybe a wider tech window? A couple pixels more throw hitbox? Hard to say but it makes me think.
Honestly I believe these are not the worst characters in the game. Simple fixes like making lariat hit both sides, let Manon's grab setup actually work because a simple neutral jump kills her setups and making lilly' anti air be a true reversal. To me characters like Dalshim and Aki need more love, because in my opinion they are the worst characters in the game
Really surprised that AKI isn't mentioned. She has no OD wakeup and her supers are some of the slowest in the game. One defensive option worth mentioning that's exclusive to the grapplers is that it's much more dangerous to try to shimmy them, as they can wake up with LP command throw and snatch you out of shimmy range.
@@joncliffmckinley5868 Yup. One of the big complaints at AKI's release was that OD slide loses to chained light->LP+LK (which OSes to light-light on block).
no manon has better defense then kim idk why ppl say manon has bad defense she has a great lvl 1 and lvl 2 kim has none of that ive been doing so much better with manon then with kim lately you have to put in so much more effort to make kim work
I don’t understand why people talk like DP is necessary. Every character can wake up in parry and the worst thing than can happen in that situation is a throw which isn’t bad at all compared to the combo you could have received. Not bad if it ain’t Zangief, Lilly or Manon which you claim is lower tier. DP is not at all necessary. Parry or jump up is a get off me move
WHat are you talking about!!! A throw isn't bad? Are you aware that there are throw loops? That alone will kill you. That's the single worst thing about SF6. You need a EX move to get people off you once you've been knocked down. And if you time your combo as the offensive player, THE DEFENDER WILL NOT BE ABLE TO JUMP. You will be held in place, since jumping is the same amount of frames as a jab. It is no longer invincible. You clearly haven't played these characters. I main gief and it is a nightmare because everyone knows you can't stop crossovers and you can't do anything once you've been knocked down. They can tick throw and confirm jab into combos (that shouldn't exist). If you jump out of the corner they will have enough time to whiff the throw AND turn around and DP you.
usually when you have a regular audio program, you learn to pronounce words correctly. I swear, I hear "expecially" every single video of yours. idk why, but it drives me nuts.
I don't think Lily is that bad. Hyperbole. She has easy anti-airs, a walking 50/50 after using spiral, timing altering dive, etc. No character in this game is BAD. It's almost like being the 7th best player on an all-star team. But people will forever downplay, and make excuses. Every character cannot have every tool. No one wants to work for Ws. Just tier wh0re, or continuously ask for buffs.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I like how eventhubs can talk about these topics in detail for almost an hour. Even some pros can’t discuss or articulate like these guys.
Thank you, really nice to hear. We're always looking for feedback on what people enjoy the most so this is much appreciated.
100% Loving this content! There is simply nothing like it in the space, or the greater FGC. I hope this content is rewarded and continues being made.
I cannot believe this guys says that Gief shouldn't be changed. Tell me you're not interested in grapplers being good without saying it.
"Change one thing on a grappler and they can be incredibly dominant- ruin a game actually." Okay I need some actual proof of this. With stats and not just anecdotes from people who got their cheeks clapped online. Grappler hate in FG is insane lol.
It really is. Lariat should at least be able to stop crossovers. I'd feel better with that alone. And the fact that you can be basic thrown out of an SPD is ludicrous! It's a special move! Why they decided to put throw loops in the game is beyond me. Talk about something that requires no skill. But sure, grapplers can't be good.
Mainly Sf4 players don't want grapplers meta back in sf6
@@fordy5788 Did grapplers really run that wild in SF4? Were they winning everything? I remember Yun being an absolute busted monster and Evil Ryu deleting life-bars..
The only game I could think of with a busted grappler that actually got playtime was original AC Potemkin. Something about crazy loops into his equivalent of SPD with pressure to keep a guessing game going on oki. No one near me played him - so I never got to experience first hand - but there should be videos on UA-cam to prove it. GG is crazy enough that it wouldn't kill the game though.
We mentioned this during the show, but during SSF4 Arcade Edition, Gief was made into a top 3 character, right behind Yun and Yang, and he was winning tournaments left and right and had people placing very consistently high in tournaments until he was toned down a bit in v2012. Also similar things happened in the SF2T era when Gief has his VERY fast and great Kick Lariat move. Also, R. Mika and Laura in SF5, when they were both considered high tier characters, but were later nerfed. Capcom has also specifically cited stuff about grapplers being too strong directly to us as that being a problem for a game's balance, due to how they play.
one question, especially to the guy on the right side of the screen
why is it alright to have someone like ken to be on top of the food chain in almost every game. and why should you not let a grappler to be at high tier once?
you said gief was too good in sf4, but he was at upper mid tier at best, and you think upper mid tier is broken already?
yes, snake eyez won a CPT qualifier, so what, it was him carrying gief, using and understanding all universal mechanics, and that's all him and i am sure he could have done much better with another char
That dude on the right side HATES GRAPPLER to his bones.
Nobody is talking about nerfing DP, which can punish cross-up and anti-air and they also have a fireball !!!!
He knows that gief on neutral is shit, he has nothing to attack. Everything Gief does is HIGH RISK compared to other. All his specials are punishable.
But we do not have to buff him. How many players played gief in sf4 ae?
Stop your hate man.
I think he knows some1 that looks a lot like Zangief, who has done him wrong in the past. He must learn to forgive and forget.
I did! Gief from SF4 was good, but he wasn't the best character in the game. Having the green glove and a lariat that protects from crossovers was great. He was truly fun to play
He should have a lariat connect on both sides. I think that would take up the tier list a lot because now he can keep players in the corner .
@@thereviewartistrrp5493 he cannot people on corner. He has weak normal and special that give him advantage comparing to other characters. Not even frame trap normal. If he miss SPD, that's is 30% of you health gone.
You have to read future to play gief.
If not, you done.
@@thereviewartistrrp5493Maybe not but it'd sure as hell help out with defending against crossups.
Nice job of mentioning the psychology of other characters fighting against the grapplers - you know they don't have good defensive tools, so you can just be braindead with your attacks knowing that they can't counter. I wish Capcom would just balance the game and make grapplers just as good as everyone else. I was disappointed by the comment made that Lariat shouldn't be changed. It should absolutely stop crossovers. It always has and Zangief literally has no defense against it in SF6.
I'm saying the same, he is completely wrong, I basically don't use Lariat against any pressure, because it always loses.
I only use it to maybe stop people from getting out of the corner, but it also doesn't really work, because they do a neutral jump, and then have long seconds to punish.
He saying Lariat should suck makes me want to unsubscribe just because how wrong he is.
Great episode as always. Grapplers definitely got the short end of the stick in this game. They have the worst defense, the worst drive rushes, and drive reversal seems the most effective against them. While zoners create a minefield to get through, have amazing normals, and when you do get in on them they have incredible defensive options. Even as a Manon player, I think it's healthy we don't get true oki off of our command grabs like older games, but grapplers need something in exchange. I think it's completely backwards that you want to be right next to a grappler on wakeup, but have to worry about getting hit by an OD reversal from a majority of the cast. Marissa is in the sweet spot that the grapplers should be in as well as far as power level.
Thanks for the kind words and for watching!
zoners aint good either
@@azizkash286 ??? You on that zoner pack
@@azizkash286oh, JP aint good? Guile aint good?
When is the center dude going to upgrade from his tinder profile pic?
lol yeah its pretty funny they use a picture AND it never at least changes ever lol
Tinder profile pic 😂😂😂
Amazing in depth discussion about the intricacies of defense. I know I’m not the only one searching for more content with an analytical approach to breaking down the game
Thanks, we consider this our specialty and we're all constantly trying to level up and learn more so we can share it with our audience.
[IMO]
Manon: The most interesting part of discussions about rebalancing Manon is that almost everyone leaves out that she has something super unique for a grappler... She has 2 buttons that PULL people into CG range. That me that is ultimate proof that Capcom intends Manon, a dancer, to be a Queen of footsies - that she wants to keep them at 'arms length' and when the time is right, flip the script and pull them in closer instead of pushing them away. I think a better tool to create and maintain distance is needed... she really needs something to get people off her (almost like a very low dmg push) and her twirl needs another active frame of projectile invincibility (or two) and definitely needs to go a little further, because it way, way to easy tp space her.
Gief: He straight up tells the player in World Tour that to be like him you need to take a shit ton of punishment and when the time is right, explode out and destroy your enemies. I think Geif needs something that is a little bit better at 'circut breaking' long DI chains, even at a resource cost. People need to be a little more scared that at any moment he just say "No more games".
Lilly: I think its safe to say that Lily was envisioned to be a character that it doesnt matter where she is on the screen, if she wants in, shes coming in. I think the entire design is based on the idea you have tools that makes your opponents never feel like they're safe, or "at a good range" - At any moment you can "cash out " and be in their face. Part of the issue here is that everyone is kinda like that, because DI is too cheap (IMO), but she also is just too costed when she does decide "fuck it, well ball". You can probably do wonders for her by adjusting resource costs. This is aside from actually fixing her. .. she is probably the only character in the game that I think doesn't work as intended in many scenarios (as discussed).
Manon target combos really suck. They lose to DI and just give her a few plus frames, now Manon has to guess to open the opponent up, whereas anyone else in that situation would have an actual combo.
@@libertyprime9307 - agreed, I personally really struggle to make them work... thought I do think I see what they are 'supposed' to do. They aren't that amazing, but I do think they should be central to her play because they are unique in a sense.
Here's hoping season 2 is kinder to us!
I will never understand why people say grapplers need to have such low defense. While at the same time feeling zoners need high defense. Why should Guile and JP have every option in the game while gief lilly and manon have 1 maybe and a throw lv 3.
Guile and JP are much more toxic to new players thant Zangief. Good players have shown that they cant deal with Jp fireballs, how are new players supposed to? I feel Marisa would harm new players 10x more than even a buffed Zangief
Dhalsim defense kinda sucks in sf6 sadly
@newwick Yes that's unfortunate, but in games like Under Night and Blaze blue, the zoner sim equivalent in Vatista and Nu-13 have tons of defense while being oppressive zoners. But they still never give their grappler a defensive option
To say that good players haven’t learned how to deal with JP’s fireballs is totally untrue.
@@johnguerrero4546 Nonsense - of course we are talking about good players playing these characters though. Zangief won't be able to touch JP. He's too slow and you'll have to gamble just to get close to him.
“Dhalsim’s defense sucks” Sorry, are you a master Dhalsim? Have you fought against Dhalsims in master? His defense absolutely does not suck more than Gief’s
"grapplers dont get good defense because their no oki no corner carry offense is too good"
Kimberly: D:
geifs were not dominating top 8s in sf4 you are kidding me. i miss being afraid of grapplers, seems like rushdown is all that plays in street fighter for the past 3 games with the rare exception of a high caliber zoner, and that's not usually until the end of the format when all the rushdown has been normalized and the best few zoners aren't endlessly mixed by cammy or yun
These guys don't even know the game. Zangief's level 3 is not invincible. Ken can DP him out of it. And how in the world is Gief being low tier good for the game? Shouldn't every character be on the same tier for balance? You essencially are saying that you don't want the game to be balanced.
whats an example of a grappler that ruined the game by being too strong?
Dude I'm thinking the same thing. The only thing even close to a response that wasn't retarded gurgling was someone pointing out Laura and R. Mika in SFV which was insane to me. First of all Laura has a projectile and a DP how is she a pure grappler? Then you got Mika who skips neutral with insane command normals/specials and only really pulls out the throws once she has you on the backfoot and EVEN THEN neither of them was "dominant" nor did they "ruin" SFV- SFV was already objectively terrible regardless.
@@zagonzal While I agree with the grappler comments. I think another silly comment is this idea that SFV was bad. I haven't heard any good reasons for this.
@@Arctanis-vt3hl Nah man I gotta disagree there. SFV was complete ass. S1 had Nash winning CC because of his advantages from insane input lag, then the rootkit, having move-sets gutted and neutered for the V-system, Bengus' rushed art, Crush Counter priority system was garbage, +2 -2 +2 -2 +2 -2 +2 -2, Proximity blocking radius made Laura braindead with projectile set-ups, really lame newcomers, the list goes on and on. I could barely stay awake through the final Capcom Cup for it. It was abysmal.
Literally Mika and Laura. Both top tier, roulette based, VT robbery who got away with murder.
@@Demon_Cursehow was them being good game-ruining?
21:51 what the hell are you talking about? Lariat Anti-Air?
Lariat always gets beaten by any move that can cross up, and most delayed or quick stuff, it really sucks badly.
"To help christen the new fighter's arrival, four of South Korea's best GBVS players put together a week 1 tier list for Rising coming from EGO|YuSeongCha, DN7, Jubim and Matthew." 1 of the south korean player is calls himself Matthew......-_- Boring ASS NAME bruh :P HAHA OOPS
Imagine that Lily is a Handicap Character in this game
Makes sense to me --- surely the developers make extremes to allow players to choose a different difficulty experience.
True
Zoners should have worse defence than grapplers as a reward for getting in on them but nope drive rushing Guile is very real and very oppressive.
Love these.
About buffing Drive Reversal, if you do that (seems fair) it wont buff these characters. The rich usually just get richer with another option, thats what happened with vshift as well.
If you want to buff the Drive Reversal of these 3 (and aki) by a few start up frames, that would do much more for their balance IMO. Atleast so that it will knock down medium buttons.
Proposed changes for GIef:
-only EX lariat hits cross up
-Level 1 can hit grounded or airborne. Speed up startup as well. Bam viable reversal. (Have him slam someone into the air and do the airborne part of the super)
-?
-profit
You realize Gief’s level 1 becomes unblockable right?
@@DrSwazz not necesarily. It can be a strike. Thus it can be blocked
@@OscarMikeFGC No, it's a throw lol. You can't block it. Unless you propose changing it to a strike in which case you'd have to revamp the whole animation.
@@DrSwazzno you wouldnt. Android 16s 214H grab in dbfz is very similar, and was given a low hit>AA grab buff at one point. so it antiairs fine, and also hits standing blockers right into the same grab animation. no animation change needed in either case
@@DrSwazz Capcom can easily do that. They added a whole ass new move to Ryu years into SFV. His donkey kick. They can surely make it a strike with a new animation for grounded opponents.
Because Manon has lack of defence tool. I train to perfect parry on wake up and also doing Drive reversal. Sometimes saving super is more important
I also play a secondary character as my defense when using Manon 😂
if putting up a wall so opponents hesitate is good for defense, isnt having a command grab a big ass wall that makes EVERYONE hesitate to move in?
One thing that I think would help the grapplers tremendously both in defensive and oki situations would be having a handful of super armor frames on their command grabs (like frames 1 - 4 or 5, double that for OD versions).
They still take damage if hit, and are still wide open if they get predictable with them, but it gives them something that can badly punish sloppy or mindless offenses that would be useful for fighting out of the corner or adding a whole new dimension to wake-up games.
Bruh what do you have parry for? The only three stooges I see in this video are the guys talking in it, because they don't know what they're talking about. Why do so many people think you have to play all the characters the same way.. a fast jab can be parried and blocked.
I don't get the sentiment that grapplers should be weaker than anyone else. Like nobody is arguing to make them OP. Personally I love playing against grapplers except Lily because she can be annoying.
Gief is easily my favorite character to fight. It feels like fighting a boss character.
I do agree grapplers should need to choose between oki and a command grab though, it makes sense design wise that you should need to earn your way back in after a command grab.
To be honest, I think that the entire grappler archetype needs a rework. If they are not fun when they are good, we should just take the L and redesign them completely - rather than keep them in this very crippled state where they're barely able to do anything.
That's sort of what they did in SF6 with taking away their oki and making them more about getting multiple hits instead of vortexing to death, but there's definitely still a palpable divide between their archetype and others.
@@EventHubs Right, the idea was to make them have to win more "honest" neutral interactions before winning. Perhaps a good idea in a vacuum, but they did this in a game where a large number of characters routinely DR to skip the neutral. Grapplers of course are the exceptions to that. And poor Lily, who cheats that neutral the best out of them, got overcompensated for in many other ways. When I think about it, grapplers got straight up nerfed and didn't really get too much in return (more combo damage, I guess), so it's no wonder they are doing so poorly.
Main problem I’ve always had against buffing drive reversal is that guile would instantly be the best character in the game if it gets implemented. Not sure how to fix lacking defensive characters but for manon just nerf her overheads and then give her a reversal.
Then they could nerf Guile a bit.
As long as the people fear an A or S tier grappler, they will forever be gimped in power and versatility
That's why all characters should be on the same tier. It's not fair for Ken, JP and Luke to be S tier while others aren't. Combo characters aren't fun either.
@@Arctanis-vt3hlespecially nonstop combo wombo characters like ken.
Marisa also lacks in all of these options, no lights that go into a “real” combo, can’t even DRC a light into a combo. Bad/unreliable Anti airs. Lvl 1 super is throwable. No DP, has to rely on armored stance which can be thrown. Tick throws are even better vs her than a lot of the cast.
Only good normal to stop DR is st.mp? Maybe one more I’m not remembering, but that button is too slow a lot of the time to beat a DR.
I’d have her instead of Manon due to her having good AAs and a lvl 1 invincible super. But not a huge gap imo.
Marisa 2LP2LPx214L6LL or 2LK2LPx214L6LL arent real combos? they do decent damage and give oki buuuuuuut.. ?
Those are her only combos that dont start off of a 6 frame jab TC that has to be CH confirmed. All other characters have more they can get from their 4 frames. In which the context of this was about defensive 4 frame combo starters, I feel that only having these poor dmg light confirms means that her defense suffers for it compared to others who can go from a light into a "real" combo (w/ drive bar or w/o depending on character). @@joncliffmckinley5868
At least lili is the only grappler capable of skipping neutral. Wind stock condor spire is a free get in and she gets to continue pressure.
unless you DRev and spend less in resources to get her off you than she just spent to get in 🎉
Here's a weird thought. Shouldn't grapplers be better at defending against, say, grapples from others? I know throws are often leverage based but someone who literally wrote the book on wrestling should know of something to do about them. Maybe a wider tech window? A couple pixels more throw hitbox? Hard to say but it makes me think.
we cant all be snake eyes :D
Scrolled through the video footage and none were Dhalsim. I'm actually curious how strong people think Dhalsim's defense is or what criteria they use
They talked about dhalsim and how he factors in
@@TheLoneDrow916 Where?
He's probably in the conversation, but we didn't rank him bottom 3 cuz of his maneuverability and such
He's harder to corner, but once he is, oh boy. No OD reversal and a super 1 that sucks as a reversal.
"are you already saying no" "i'm already saying no" 🤣
I got a whole bag of "No!" with Velociraptor's name on it...
The dude on the right, should be play gief mainly and he instantly understand, how hard to deal with his weaknesses. buff gief
Honestly I believe these are not the worst characters in the game. Simple fixes like making lariat hit both sides, let Manon's grab setup actually work because a simple neutral jump kills her setups and making lilly' anti air be a true reversal. To me characters like Dalshim and Aki need more love, because in my opinion they are the worst characters in the game
what do you mean by make Manons setup work bc you can jump out? you want unjumpable command grab setups?
@@joncliffmckinley5868right? Bro looking for the easiest of dubs 🤣🤣
Really surprised that AKI isn't mentioned. She has no OD wakeup and her supers are some of the slowest in the game.
One defensive option worth mentioning that's exclusive to the grapplers is that it's much more dangerous to try to shimmy them, as they can wake up with LP command throw and snatch you out of shimmy range.
She does have the OD slide, which is something compared to the characters we talked about.
@@EventHubswhich hard loses to throw, and can be OSd with jab>throw
@@joncliffmckinley5868 Yup. One of the big complaints at AKI's release was that OD slide loses to chained light->LP+LK (which OSes to light-light on block).
I feel like dhalsim is weaker defensively than manon 🤔
I actually think Aki is worse than these 3.
Yeah.
Needs fixing on her normals and sub par defense
No way - she's actually a good character. Can play keep away from Zangief and can crawl out of the corner.
no manon has better defense then kim idk why ppl say manon has bad defense she has a great lvl 1 and lvl 2 kim has none of that ive been doing so much better with manon then with kim lately you have to put in so much more effort to make kim work
Just churn 360 with gief om defense 🥴
I don’t understand why people talk like DP is necessary. Every character can wake up in parry and the worst thing than can happen in that situation is a throw which isn’t bad at all compared to the combo you could have received. Not bad if it ain’t Zangief, Lilly or Manon which you claim is lower tier. DP is not at all necessary. Parry or jump up is a get off me move
WHat are you talking about!!! A throw isn't bad? Are you aware that there are throw loops? That alone will kill you. That's the single worst thing about SF6. You need a EX move to get people off you once you've been knocked down. And if you time your combo as the offensive player, THE DEFENDER WILL NOT BE ABLE TO JUMP. You will be held in place, since jumping is the same amount of frames as a jab. It is no longer invincible. You clearly haven't played these characters. I main gief and it is a nightmare because everyone knows you can't stop crossovers and you can't do anything once you've been knocked down. They can tick throw and confirm jab into combos (that shouldn't exist). If you jump out of the corner they will have enough time to whiff the throw AND turn around and DP you.
@@Arctanis-vt3hl I’d take 4 normal throws over a combo that ends in level 3
Who do you main?
@@johnnieboy66 Master with JP so maining Manon
@@Arctanis-vt3hlbackdash
No AKI...the worst defensive player in sf6
Dont give Oki to grabber and yet JP, Ken exist.
👍🏻
Zangief is the strongest of the three IMO
No, if you check the winrate, gief is the worse.
Snake Eyes said Lily has way better tools when he played her to master rank.
usually when you have a regular audio program, you learn to pronounce words correctly. I swear, I hear "expecially" every single video of yours. idk why, but it drives me nuts.
get over it. you know what theyre saying, get off the high horse
I don't think Lily is that bad. Hyperbole. She has easy anti-airs, a walking 50/50 after using spiral, timing altering dive, etc. No character in this game is BAD. It's almost like being the 7th best player on an all-star team. But people will forever downplay, and make excuses. Every character cannot have every tool. No one wants to work for Ws. Just tier wh0re, or continuously ask for buffs.