I was Protestant for most of my life. I found the Orthodox Church by trying to make an argument to my Baptist husband for Catholicism. It’s impossible to understand Orthodoxy outside of Orthodoxy. The liturgical life and practices of the church have been life changing. My only regret is that I didn’t find it sooner.
It should be Jesus that is life changing. If it is anything different it isn't from God. Paul said at the entrance of the temple "I don't have silver and gold" but all I see in EO churches is everything full of gold. It is appalling to me!
@@Metanoia235 The Church is the Body of Christ, and the pillar and ground of truth. You encounter Christ fully in Orthodoxy. I was a Protestant for 30 years. Protestantism doesn't even come close.
My heart is full to read this. You made my day. I really hope that the local churches in Europe would start emphasizing more beautiful aspects of second-temple Judaism in Orthodoxy. All the best, brother.
I am an orthodox woman. My husband and I were both Protestant but found ourselves disenchanted with the church. The Protestant church seemed afraid of deep questions and was frankly so American. Even conservative “historical” orthodox churches, I just felt were so bound to western culture. I know this is hard to wrap our minds around but orthodoxy made sense of EVERYTHING. It was the first and only place I have found that have answered my questions in a solid way.
My brother attends a Charismatic Pentecostal Church. Everything evolves around the Pastor. There is no organization. Randomly he'll feel the Holy Spirit so the service is just praying together by laying hands and "speaking in tongues". He prayed for my Husbands back (6 surgeries from spondylolisthesis), beside me, and he went from English to nonsense language and it repulsed my Husband. In his words "it turned me off, it felt fake". Not to mention the dancing, jumping around, shouting in tongues. They play the same few Protestant songs about the Holy Spirit. On a big screen in the dark. I'm thankful my brother invited us but my 5 year old at the time had to wear headphones because of the music and we were starting to think he had sensory problems/autism because he'd have such a bad reaction. After discovering Orthodoxy, I spent a year reading and watching documentaries about Early Church Fathers, learned the Creed and went to my first Divine Liturgy. I convinced my Husband to come but he was very apprehensive at first so me and my son went. We were recently received into the Romanian Orthodox Christian Church of North America. As a family. My Husband likes to attend and nobody expects him to stand all the time. We have pews and everyone goes between standing and sitting. We sit for the Gospel. Now (I wish I could share a video) but my son who is now 8, read in front of the Church twice, and Father said he's a good reader and can spend many years reading in the Church. The difference is night and day. I suffered from severe sleep paralysis and paranormal activity involving the same "entity" for many years. It started after I played with a Ouija board at 13 years old. I won't go into detail. Attending the Charismatic Pentecostal Church did not bring relief. Which was why I sought out Jesus Christ in the first place. Since Baptism, I sleep peacefully knowing my Guardian Angel watches over me. Sorry for the long story. When you said "Charismatic" it made me realize how far my family has come. Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have Mercy on me a sinner ☦️🙏
So I totally agree. I don't mind that part of Divine Liturgy is in Romanian. I've been told "All Orthodox Christian Churches have the same Liturgy, the same Communion, the same Gospel, the same Apostolic succession, the same Creed". "The only difference is the food you eat afterwards". 😊 Whether it's Slavic, Greek, Ethiopian, Ukrainian, Russian, Serbian, Armenian, Belarusian, Romanian. Eastern Orthodoxy came to Western Canada in the 1700s. Started from Alaska, where a new language was created with the Inuit indigenous communities for worship. Everywhere Orthodoxy goes, it mixes with the culture. It's only ethnic because of how immigrants came and settled in North America (it kept their heritage and Orthodox Christian Faith together). Now there is the OCA Orthodox Church of America. It is all English. Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have Mercy on me a sinner ☦️🙏
I am a middle aged man (51). Raised charismatic in the 80s (a billy graham sinners prayer convert in 84). Lived like hell in my 20s & 30s, came back to the faith at 41. A theological journey led me to calvinism up until a year and a half ago. Was never settled spiritually speaking. Out of the blue orthodoxy was presented to me (i had very little knoweldge of it prior). I went on a journey with it theologically and historically and finally step into a parish. Have not left and now a catechumen. I have found my home...finally. Glory to God 🙏
Similar journey here (per Calvinism) we are being baptized and Chrismated next week into the Greek Orthodox church. The fullness of Christ found in the liturgy and the church is something outsiders can not understand. The church is the Body of Christ. And in His church you will find the fullness of Him! Protestants who thinks the scriptures are the only authority have the form of godliness and yet reject it's power. Please protestant humbly read 2 Timothy and consider history, the ecumenical councils and God's promise to have His church set on the Apostles and that the gates of hell would not succeed against it and pray to the Lord He will guide you to the church He set up 2000 years ago. Protestantism has no connection to the ancient church. You do not believe what the original church believed. Your outside of the faith. We pray daily for y'all to return to the faith once handed down. Glory to our Holy triune God! In the name of Jesus may the Spirit of God who proceeds from the Father guide you to Himself and His house of worship.
@@naturesorder7106My brother attends a Charismatic Pentecostal Church. Everything evolves around the Pastor. There is no organization. Randomly he'll feel the Holy Spirit so the service is just praying together by laying hands and "speaking in tongues". He prayed for my Husbands back (6 surgeries from spondylolisthesis), beside me, and he went from English to nonsense language and it repulsed my Husband. In his words "it turned me off, it felt fake". Not to mention the dancing, jumping around, shouting in tongues. They play the same few Protestant songs about the Holy Spirit. On a big screen in the dark. I'm thankful my brother invited us but my 5 year old at the time had to wear headphones because of the music and we were starting to think he had sensory problems/autism because he'd have such a bad reaction. After discovering Orthodoxy, I spent a year reading and watching documentaries about Early Church Fathers, learned the Creed and went to my first Divine Liturgy. I convinced my Husband to come but he was very apprehensive at first so me and my son went. We were recently received into the Romanian Orthodox Christian Church of North America. As a family. My Husband likes to attend and nobody expects him to stand all the time. We have pews and everyone goes between standing and sitting. We sit for the Gospel. Now (I wish I could share a video) but my son who is now 8, read in front of the Church twice, and Father said he's a good reader and can spend many years reading in the Church. The difference is night and day. I suffered from severe sleep paralysis and paranormal activity involving the same "entity" for many years. It started after I played with a Ouija board at 13 years old. I won't go into detail. Attending the Charismatic Pentecostal Church did not bring relief. Which was why I sought out Jesus Christ in the first place. Since Baptism, I sleep peacefully knowing my Guardian Angel watches over me. Sorry for the long story. When you said "Charismatic" it made me realize how far my family has come. Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have Mercy on me a sinner ☦️🙏
This is another thing that was not happening when I was a Protestant, but I had classmates in college that now spend their time trying to work clips of the latest movies into their sermons. When I was in the Church of the Nazarene, we weren't even supposed to go to secular movies, much less work them into sermons. This certainly does not contribute to theological seriousness or spiritual growth.
I didn't even know that was a thing. Using an example from a popular film to illustrate a point and help the congregation remember the point better is entirely legitimate (in the same way Paul occasionally used pagan poems in his sermons in Acts). But you don't need to show a clip from it in order to do that.
@stephengray1344 an example that come to mind was showing a clip from Heath Ledger's Joker...talking about how he became consumed with that character and died as a result, and then saying we need to be like Christ and be consumed by Him. That's a stretch for an excuse to show a movie clip if ever there was one.
Orthodox for 16 years. I agree with almost everything Dr. Ortlund says here. Becoming Orthodox is not a simple denomination switch, it is a major decision. If you know someone that's becoming Orthodox, you should pray for them - not that they change but that they find and follow Christ. Protestants would do well to go back to their roots and stay connected to the Church of history. Trust in Jesus is primary. When I was an Orthodox catechumen, my priest gave salient advice. Don't become Orthodox because you like the tradition, do it because you find Christ more clearly. I've seen many young men come to Orthodoxy and lose all faith because they come for "counter-culture" or "unchanging-ness". But Orthodoxy is very much infused with culture and is not immune to change - thr Church is a living organism and not an archeological site. Whether you become Orthodox or dive deeper into your Protestant roots or go the Papal path, if you're not seeking Christ, it's fruitless and will not endure to the end.
I mostly agree (especially with your last paragraph), but would argue that Ortlund is mostly wrong about "Protestantism" as a whole, and gives far too much credit to it in the sense of it having historical roots that can address these problems. This too conveniently dismisses the reality that Protestant "worship" is fundamentally flawed and inevitably leads to where it is currently located, which is a miasma of self-directed, self-appointed solo-scriptura experts. I think Ortlund is mostly well-meaning, and seems to have a genuine spirit about things. But I don't think that going back to Protestant "roots" addresses the real problem, and will only delay the same outcome (but probably not by that much). He seems oblivious to some core problems inherent in Protestant thought that cannot be fixed with a desire to just preach _harder_ .
@@GregorydrobnyI agree with everything the OP said as a Protestant. Unfortunately you seem unaware of how to steelman the Protestant position and it comes off as how village atheists (aka new atheists like Dawkins) describe Christianity. Keep diving into the debates historical Protestants had with Rome and Orthodoxy and you’ll see what I mean One example would be regarding icon veneration not going to the golden age of church fathers or to the apostoles. Another is the Marian dogma of Bodily assumption (which you maybe refer to as dormition) Anyways, I tend to see orthodox with the same proud posture as yourself in the comment section and it rivals the vitriol I see from many village Catholics. Let’s do better. You are A true church just not the ONE TRUE CHURCH
I agree with everything brother, you seem to acknowledge that seeking Jesus is the primary goal in all of this. Whether I become orthodox or Catholic or remain prot is meaningless without that. AMEN 🙏🏽
@@Gregorydrobnyyour last sentence makes me see you didn’t watch all the way to the end. This kind of confidence usually comes from ignorance and a lack of desire to portray the other side accurately and fairly. If you want peace of mind ur doing the right thing. If you want truth you have a ways to go
I completely agree. Sadly I have never run into an Orthodox clergyman or convert that doesn't make Orthodoxy a turn-off because they seem to be so defensive about their own position and that is reflected in their dialogue and behavior. I have never encountered an Orthodox person who displayed the love of Christ and a desire to win me over. Rather they spend more time telling non-Orthodox people of how wrong they are. I don't ever feel this is an invitation to join or even dialogue. I don't mind being shown I am wrong, but they seem to enjoy making that point more than inviting me to join them.
@@JoanneArc-or9sr Christ’s Holy Orthodox Church never needed any so-called, “reform.” And this is what is being realized on a very large scale, and will continue to increase exponentially.
@@JoanneArc-or9sr I do read my Bible to assume I don’t is to be in error since you don’t know me or my heart. And asking for people to pray for you is biblical Paul did it, that he would have boldness to proclaim the Gospel. We are commanded to pray for all peoples whether people in authority kings etc, so why wouldn’t I ask the body of Christ to pray for me as I seek guidance from Christ. You’re not really making sense.
As an atheist up until recently and now working on converting to Orthodoxey. The first thing that attracted me was when i heard a priest say that the church is a hospital for sin you come to church to get better and, when they talk about the saints thier like proof that the medicine of the the church and Jesus really works. Second is as someone who grew up with a mother who definitely took her evangelical faith seriously-maybey it was just me and my mother- thier was no constant practice in her faith. I think the asetic practice of fasting and daily prayer rules really help remind me what im trying to do its something I commit to live out to the best of my ability.
Welcome home brother… My wife and I converted to EO in Australia 25 years ago this coming Easter and our four adult children are all following Christ as are we. My mother was a devout evangelical too and was deeply committed to servanthood. All the best in your walk
I grew up a Protestant, and I found Orthodoxy and tried to prove it wrong. Needless to say, I’m now Orthodox. The main reasons are accountability. Our world today is filled with temptations and in the Protestant world, there is no consistent lifestyle of living accountable lives. Orthodoxy has the sacrament of Confession with challenges and spiritual disciplines to help mature the believer. If you wince at the idea of this, it may mean that you have never been held accountable. I’ve grown more in my faith the last 3 years then in my 27 years previously as a Protestant. Orthodoxy is a way of life, it is not just a set of doctrines. Protestantism doesn’t have this, and like shifting winds, the foundations/doctrines/practices change within a generation. My advice for Protestants who look into Orthodoxy: realize that Orthodoxy is not just intellectual. It is far more experiential and internet debates only go so far. So, come and see! Attend a Divine Liturgy and bring your questions and concerns to a priest God bless ☦️
Back in the 1960s/70s Jesus Movement, a bunch of young hardcore Protestant Jesus people converted (at the same time) to EO. I heard about this years ago and wondered why they made such a leap from the freedom of being a Born Again Christian to the old school structure of Orthodoxy. Experiences like yours help me understand it better.
39. I was pentecostal for 23 years. I cannot abide cognitive dissonance. When all the protestant contradictions became too much I would try to take things from other Christian traditions to make things make sense and time and time again it was Orthodoxy that had the most consistent and well integrated answers. Me, my wife, and our children were accepted into the Church recently. Participating in the life of the Church has catapulted my spiritual life and humbled me deeply.
My son converted to Orthodox recently. He is happier & fulfilled and really love Jesus and obey God. I visited his church couple of times. It’s a way of life and desire connecting to God imo.
I’m that 30 year female Orthodox Convert from 46 years as a happy evangelical. We women are not marginalized in the Orthodox Church! In fact, the wealth of female Saints that have heroic lives to encourage women (and men) is something that was frankly missing in evangelical culture. We are theologians, chanters, parish council leaders and so on. Men do have to look at Mary and say “Orthodoxy forces me to to treat women with respect because of her” (That’s the aim) There’s respect for the discipline of celibacy and no sex before marriage.
@@Hope-d8y It's on the OT. If you read through the line of kings in Kings/Chronicles, the kings of Judah are listed as are their mothers, but the kings of Israel (northern kingdom) are not listed in this fashion. "So and so was king and his mother was so and so", NOT his wife/wives. The rightful King of Judah has a mother, and if you follow the trend in the Scriptures that God Himself inspired, the question one would ask after knowing that Christ is King is who is His mother?, just like in the line of Judah from which He comes. 2 Kings 8:25,26 In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab, king of Israel, Ahaziah the son of Jehoram, king of Judah, began to reign. Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Athaliah; she was a granddaughter of Omri king of Israel. 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 2 Kings 24:18 Zedekiah was twenty-one years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hamutal the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah. These are just a few examples, you can look thru the OT books of Kings/Chronicles to find many many more. In 2 Chronicles 15:16, we can see that the mother of the king was even called the "queen mother": Even Maacah, his mother, King Asa removed from being queen mother because she had made a detestable image for Asherah. Asa cut down her image, crushed it, and burned it at the brook Kidron. So Mary, being Christ's mother, is the queen of heaven and is rightly called the Queen Mother.
One point that no one seems to be making - and this might be the MOST important point: Men don’t respect Protestant pastors. They don’t walk with the humility and holiness of the Orthodox priests. They don’t live the ascetical life of fasting and sacrifice like Orthodox priests. They rarely personally see to the shepherding of their flock with the vested interest of an Orthodox priest. 40+ years in evangelicalism and I never found a single pastor I “looked up” to or wanted to imitate. The Orthodox priests LIVE the life of humility and sacrifice, and it’s inspiring to men like me. Maybe it’s all a show. But so far it checks out.
and to add, most of the orthodox priests, especially in smaller parishes, are quite poor, and live off donations and off of donations alone are able to erect a church at all. Some priests even have to work multiple jobs to keep food on their own table. They really live a life of sacrifice.
I wish I could add more likes to this one. Absolutely spot on. My wife and I were walking out of our church after discussing our Chrismation with our priest and I pointed to his car in the parking lot and said, "Look, it's a Kia -- not a Mercedes, or a Cadillac, or some high dollar name-brand vehicle that cost as much as our house..." After years of being protestant, seeing all the tight skinny jeans, ridiculous watches and shoes, and men dressed like high-schoolers with too much money, it became hard to take seriously. As a result, I began to question the church as a whole (never doubting God's existence) and after a lot of research and praying to find the truth, it led to Orthodoxy. It was refreshing for me to discover that the priest of our parish was shocked when, at a community dinner of pastors in our area, he asked some of them how they attend to their congregation when they are in need or sick, only to get the response that they had staff for those things. Orthodoxy is a completely different way of Christian living.
There might be a point to this. I never saw protestant pastors being disrespected but I went to a Baptist Bible class a couple of times (not all that interesting, having studied theology myself but I wanted some people to talk to about the Bible) - there was a lot of disrespect for the young pastor who had just came to the community. Especially from the other men. It was so shameful to watch that I never went back there. Besides, their services are like a 1hr rock concert with a little sermon sprinkled in between.
I couldn't agree more. In many Evangelical settings, the pastors are treated like celebrities and are very flash/showy. It all becomes about who they are as a famous name, with people only wanting to attend services when they are there. Also the ministers having the most lavish car/house/aeroplane, with their name and photo branded everywhere. Some even have bodyguards. I can't take them seriously. The contrast with Orthodox priests is astonishing
I think this varies across Evangelicalism. As a British Evangelical, I've come across far more pastors (or equivalent) in real life who I look up to and want to imitate than I have ones I don't. Plenty of them live lives of humility and sacrifice and live to build up the members of their church. There isn't quite so much asceticism, but asceticism isn't an inherent good. The Pharisees, for example, were far more prone to asceticism than the Apostles.
I'm 50 now. I converted to Orthodoxy at age 40 after approximately 30 years of Protestantism through 8 different denominations. Constantly searching, searching, searching. It's been such a relief to finally find my "home" and yet I am treading in a deep ocean of Christianity. I'm never bored, I'm constantly learning, and often overwhelmed I'll never be able to really, truly capture fully living Orthodox. It is the happiest, most loved, most challenged walk with God I've ever had.
I completely agree that Gen Z has a real wariness toward being pandered to! We REALLY DON'T want football analogies from the pulpit, emojis in the bulletin, corny nothing-lyrics from worship music, cute acronyms, watered-down summaries of truth, and carefully hyper-simplified interpretations of verses. The very endeavor to be "seeker-sensitive" has itself repelled seekers. We don't want Christianity for kids. We don't want brand-safe, scrubbed-out Christianity. Give us everything or nothing at all! Ok, rant over. This video clearly resonated with me! I'm so used to being pandered and advertised to, that it makes me sad to see churches trying the same thing with Christ.
Also, I'm a Baptist, and an evangelical protestant. I agree with the doctrine behind most of the messages I'm criticizing! The truth of Jesus Christ is so rich and real that it deserves more honor than we tend to give it.
@@Thatoneguy-pu8ty Thanks man. I want to be careful that I'm not murmuring against the churches I love though (many of which do these things). I am grateful to God for how those churches have caused me to grow, and I am content in Christ though I'm a flawed man who attends flawed churches! It's out of a passion for truly communicating the honor of God that I say all this. I mean to press on, not to just whine about the situation!
yea the weakness of many modern churches is a big fault, but I disagree with those bad theology rock n roll churches just as much as I disagree with orthodox and catholic. Just because some protestant churches are way off base doesnt mean orthodox is correct either.
Agreed. I’m gen Z and became a Christian about a year ago. I grew up in a non-denominational church but the words never pierced my heart. For the past two months I’ve begun attending a Baptist church and have been drawn towards the intimacy of the smaller church setting and the hymns. I’ve been craving deeper theology and church history that is not present in most non-denominational churches. I think it’s unfortunate that many have had experiences similar to ours, and will convert to Catholicism/Orthodoxy without realizing non-denominational churches aren’t representative of Protestantism broadly speaking.
Hot take: you should become EO because you think that the claims of EO are true (this is the only reason you should become anything!). Becoming EO because you think it's more "stable" or "masculine" or whatever means that you don't really care about EO, you care about "stability" or "masculinity" or whatever.
My perception of change in the contemporary Protestantism of the time I converted 34 years ago, but I do remember what Evangelical Protestantism was like when I left it, and it bears little resemblance with what you see today. Protestant worship has almost completely changed, but so has the preaching. Towards the end of her life, my mother could not find a Church in the denomination she raised me and my brothers, that was anything like what she had known. She ended up going to the old folks service at a Methodist Church, which was kind of similar. But if you have a religion that is constantly reinventing itself, and becomes something completely different within the lifetime of one person, you're doing something wrong.
It is not fair to point to the phenomenon happening only over the past 30-40 years and judge the whole traditions to be ever-changing. Many of the historic confessional standards are still kept in many reformational churches, especially outside America. Change and splits often happen throughout the church history. We definitely won't judge Christianity as a whole just because there were turmoils across different churches during the Chalcedonian vs. Non-chalcedonians split, or just because there is a schism between the True/Genuine Orthodoxy vs. World Orthodoxy vs. Old Believers.
@Presbapterian I caught the frenzy of the tail end of the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement. I’ve seen a lot of noise online from heavy-set men in their mid-to late-thirties grappling with the massive growth in American Orthodoxy among young men. It is a punch in the gut to them! These are the faithful pastors that should be keeping young protestants in the pews! Well, as someone who was part of the YRR movement; I can safely say that while there may be a similarity in impetus among the young, single male crowd that is flocking to Holy Orthodoxy (after all, they are young men, too)-once they get there, I can tell you that the “rubber hits the road” in an entirely different way. Here’s a few differences: 1. Folks who flourished under YRR did so by following their peers; or those in most cases just a few years older than themselves. This was the time when all the young guys in the Baptist churches became Calvinists-not much else changed than the books they read and maybe a preference of wine over grape juice. 2. Young men that drank YRR to its dregs ended up as minority constituents in small, traditionally-minded Reformed denominations. Others that floated on top of the YRR wave and stayed Protestants usually remained as baptists or joined a new 1689-oriented church plant. The inherent nature of Protestant ecclesiology and the social-religious landscape of America ensured that YRR lost steam and fizzled out. 3. Plenty of YRR folks actually converted to Papism-a sore spot for many Reformed folks who participated! It was a real demoralizer and catalyst for plateau in the movement. These points, when compared to the flow of young men into Holy Orthodoxy, show substantial differences: 1. While a peer often exposes young men to orthodoxy, once they actually check out a parish, they find there is no way that they can “follow” their peers into the Church. Our method of catechesis and reception simply doesn’t allow that kind of dynamic to endure through the inquiry stage. When you “sign up” for Holy Orthodoxy, you’re made to understand that you are giving up all your heretical ideations and Protestant ethos-and in return, you are born again through baptism in the Orthodox Church. The scandal of ecclesial exclusivity must take root in the inquirer's heart before he gains entry into the Church. Until then, he is on the outside looking into the life of the Church. This is MUCH different than the mere “intellectual ascent” which barred folks from the YRR movement. 2. The Orthodox Church is not a breeding ground for questions about the faith, nor about theological issues that divide Protestants into thousands of theologically scrupulous camps. When people enter the Church; they stay because it is the spiritual path to Eternal Life-not a place for theological gesticulation. The people that do leave after joining generally follow a path of two sorts 1) casual enjoyment of pet sins left unconfessed, which leads to spiritual lethargy. 2) entertainment of heretical notions after baptism. In both these ways, the YRR movement was much easier to leave than it is to leave the Orthodox Church; if you leave the Orthodox Church after being admitted to our ranks, you are essentially bidding on your own damnation-much different than the YRR church jumping maneuvers that so many did! 3. The pull into Holy Orthodoxy is not the same as that of the YRR movement. YRR folks were looking to better understand the classic Protestant dogmas that their bland evangelical theology had eschewed in order to foster unity among Protestants. In this, they thought they would find the longing of their hearts for true knowledge of God. What they got instead were dry theological tomes and elentic proofs with a side of 19th-century racism. On the other hand, the draw into Holy Orthodoxy is about ontological transformation, which can only come about by mystical participation-the set of concerns couldn’t be more different.
After being atheist for the first 30 years of my life and finally understanding God is real, the obvious question was which church still teaches what it taught 2000 years ago, because God's teaching would be perfect and thus unchanging. After that it was a historical question and the obvious answer was the Orthodox Church. The rest followed from that.
I think serious involvement in Orthodox spirituality reveals just how far our hearts are from God. We are slaves to the passions (and by them the demons) and Christ wants to deliver us from this slavery so that we might become holy as He is holy. My 30 years in the Protestant world didn’t get me very far and only prevented me from realizing just how sin was at work in me. It really just developed a crust of delusion that I was saved and all was good. I knew a lot of Bible and Truth but didn’t have the tools to integrate it as I do now. The spiritual life of the Orthodox Church brings you deeper and therefore higher, towards the holy Trinity. Read the lives of the saints to see what we can become by His grace. You can only really find that in the ancient Church.
@@Thatoneguy-pu8tyBut surely you don't mean that if the Reformation had never happened, we still would have ended up with today's American evangelicalism, do you?
@@Thatoneguy-pu8ty I think it actually is. A system built on continual reformation will inevitably lead somewhere. Having no rootedness and adhering to semper reformada means that there's always a reaction against the next thing that is deemed "unscriptural" (but according to who?). Look at the anabaptist movement, as an early example.
I want stability most for my young children. I want to raise them in a church that will last long after I am dead. As a current LCMS Lutheran this is one of the biggest things I struggle with as I am almost certain that most of these denominations will be GONE by the time my grandkids are adults. This is what draws me to Orthodoxy honestly.
Well, Orthodoxy has survived Communism, and severe Islamic pressure. It is definitely is more resilient than anything else. Traditional protestantism couldn’t even survive freedom.
@@chrisj123165 I converted from LCMS to Holy Orthodoxy 5 years ago. My young children are being raised in the Church. When I am gone the Church will be there. Literally the best thing I EVER did, glory to God.
I feel the same. We just started attending an LCMS church and I love it so much, but I look around and we are one of two families with young children. Everyone else is north of 60. That’s another reason why I am drawn to Catholicism.
Don’t choose church because of that brother, even though I understand the sentiment. If the confessional Lutheran church has a theology you agree with, stay there and be the younger Christian that will enforce it!
For my children, I don’t want their faith to be in an institution here on earth, but in the Holy Word of God and in Christ crucified. I understand the desire to have them belong to an earthly institution that will last after you’re gone, but there’s no guarantee that the EO church won’t change, as they already demonstratively have (e.g. gone from anathematizing those outside of the EO church to saying they don’t know where the church ends). Just look at the RC and how it’s changed. It’s existed in name for thousands of years but it’s changed a ton. The only thing that will NEVER change is God’s Holy Word and the truth that it holds. I would rather teach my children to read, understand it, and faithfully follow Christ. That way they can find a body of faithful believers wherever they are and they don’t have to rely on flawed human institutions that can err. No offense intended to anyone who claims the name of Christ. If you read this, God bless you ✝️
“When I visited an Orthodox Church, it was only in order to view another ‘tradition’. However, when I entered an Orthodox Church for the first time (in San Francisco) something happened to me that I had not experienced in any Buddhist or other Eastern temple; something in my heart said this was ‘home’, that all my search was over.” - St. Seraphim of Platina This was also my reaction when I attended Divine Liturgy for the first time. I'm so glad I found 'home'.
Dear Calvin, As a Protestant transitioning into the Orthodox Church, I feel somewhat misrepresented. My decision is based on the following reasons: 1. Earnestly praying for God to guide me into His truths, 2. Believing that Christ has faithfully led His Church throughout history, which is not represented by evangelicalism, and 3. A desire for pure worship and holiness. The main reasons I am leaving evangelicalism is the prevalent subjectivism resulting from sola scriptura and the unbiblical nature of sola fide. May the Lord bless you, Calvin.
Converted to the Catholic Church for the same reasons. I just happen think the papacy is historically and ecclesiologically closer to the truth because Jesus established one man as the Royal Steward (cf Mt 16:19, Is 22:20-22), and only one man was given the symbolic keys of that perpetual office. FWIW, I think that in time you will find that Catholics are far more accepting of the EO than they are of Catholics. I call it "Little Brother Syndrome". Best wishes.
Really hacks me off when I hear "ministers" break Nine Commandment. This often done by accusing brethren of taking easy way out, looking for sensuousness, believing we can "earn our way into heaven" or whatever crud the speaker wants to put in our mouths or accuse us of.
@randycarson9812 The keys were given to all of the apostles. Read your own papal documents. Lanteran IV article I admission of faith. The last paragraph conceeds the EO postition. "Little brother syndrome." You dont see this as condescending?
@@grizzly_8917 Regarding the paragraph from the Lateran Council, while the passage acknowledges that the keys were given to the Church, it does not contradict the unique role of Peter as the head of the apostles. Instead, it aligns with the broader Catholic teaching that: 1. The Authority of the Keys: Jesus explicitly gives the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to Peter in Matthew 16:18-19, signifying a special primacy and authority. This does not mean the other apostles lack authority but that Peter holds a unique and preeminent role among them. 2. Shared Authority with the Apostles: In Matthew 18:18, Jesus grants all the apostles the power to bind and loose, showing that they share in the Church's teaching and governing authority. This is understood in Catholic teaching as the collegiality of the apostles under Peter's leadership. Here's a useful analogy: The US Senate Majority Leader holds a prominent leadership role among senators, guiding legislative priorities and coordinating the Senate's agenda. Similarly, Peter, chosen by Jesus to be the chief steward of the kingdom of heaven (cf. Mt 16:19, Is 22:20-22), held a central leadership position among the apostles. While all US senators share in the legislative process and decision-making, the Majority Leader is responsible for ensuring cohesion and direction within the Senate. Likewise, all the apostles exercised authority in governing the early Christian community, but they did so under Peter's leadership. 3. Lateran IV and Papal Primacy: While the Fourth Lateran Council acknowledges that the authority of the keys is exercised in communion with the whole Church, it does not deny Peter's unique role as the foundation of unity. In fact, the council’s proceedings strongly affirm the pope’s supreme authority as the successor of Peter. The Catholic Church reconciles these points through the concept of subsidiary authority: while the entire Church participates in Christ’s authority, the pope holds a distinct, singular office as the visible head of the Church (the Royal Steward), entrusted by Christ to govern and shepherd the faithful. As for my comment being condescending, yes, but does that prevent it from being accurate?
Not only young men but all kinds of people from different walks of life are coming. No matter how many times the Protestant Church reforms itself, it will never be able to replicate the stability and rootedness discussed in this video about Holy Orthodoxy. The Truth does not need continual reform. This alone should make anyone here a careful student of Orthodox Christianity's 2,000-year-old legacy. ☦
@UniteAgainstEvil I could just link to any of Gavin's episodes on EO, but you're here with me, just click on recent episodes. He raises every issue I had, and some I didn't even realize I had.
26yo orthodox male convert here. When I converted to Christianity it first was through a Presbyterian church. I had the pastor there straight face tell me that premarital sex and LGBT isn't a sin and i was reading the bible and hearing all these things that i couldn't reconcile with scripture which led me to question "well if we are not following the bible and aren't following church tradition then what are we even doing here?" So i decided to investigate church history and the church fathers and doctrines regarding the saints, the eucharist, Mary, scripture's roll in church, and all of it was just rock solid and ancient. I realized that literally %75 of church history was missing from my protestantism which basically taught that everything before Martin Luther was heretical and irrelevant (on what grounds do LGBT affirming pastors have the right to call anyone heretics anyway???) . I was resolved to find the ancient church of the earliest centuries and that is orthodoxy. The great catch 22 of modern protestantism is craving more traditional worship yet rejecting all the teachings of the traditional church. In orthodoxy there is a transcendent beauty and depth of truth that simply cannot be matched. The saints, the fathers, monastics, incense, holy oil, fasting, the prayers, it is a depth of faith that demands %100 of you and it's wonderful. It doesn't pander to me it asks more of me. It asks more than anyone else ever has and it's wonderful. My faith is powerful and deep on a level I could not have ever imagined.
"My faith is powerful and deep" is such a weird thing for a Christian to say. It's not wrong to just admit that you think the Orthodox church is powerful and based.
@@samuelotache9239 1. The papacy. 2. Numerous corruption and sexual abuse scandals at the highest levels. 3. Vatican II and further revisions and backsliding 4. The filioque
As a 60 year old woman converted from Protestantism to Orthodoxy for 4 years now just love, love every new step in my discovering of the Orthodox faith. It feels I’ve moved from milk to solid food This was the best decision I’ve ever made in my entire life to really learn how to worship God the Holy Trinity (which was very confusing for me as a Protestant) My relationship and Love for God just grow and grow something I’ve reached sort of a plafon in protestantism There was definitely a lack of solid food ministry. The main preaching was just a lot of stories without rock solid teachings and practical traditions to help you grow as a Christain Orthodoxy is more practical and teaches about a way of life
I think the biggest problem with modern evangelical Protestant culture is the complete lack of theology and practice outside of attending church on Sunday and maybe a Bible Study on Wednesday. It’s an inch deep, if that. The churches don’t explain the historical creeds, barely touch morality outside of sexuality, and lost any sense of an organized prayer life. The believer is often left with the sense of “what now”? I mean I believe the gospel, I want to follow that path, I want to please God, but how? Or what is it that we actually believe about Trinity, original sin, various moral principles, etc. One reason that people are leaving for orthodox Christianity or Catholic Christianity is that this is literally the first place that very common Christian beliefs are explained. The first time anyone ever explains the Trinity, or Justification, Sanctification (which is very similar to Theosis), or very common high-churc( beliefs about Communion (Lutherans and Anglicans believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, though I don’t think it’s identical)
>The believer is often left with the sense of “what now”? I mean I believe the gospel, I want to follow that path, I want to please God, but how? Or what is it that we actually believe about Trinity, original sin, various moral principles, etc. Which there is plenty of in the earlier Protestant writers, but not many read them.
@ I think we’ve stopped talking about it. It’s like a big push - understandably so - to get people to become believers, but then the rest isn’t talked about at all. People have a first grader’s Sunday school explanation of Christianity, with no depth at all, and it’s a bit unsatisfactory when that person tries to take that out into the world. It doesn’t work well because you still have real and important questions, and you have problems, and nobody else knows more than you do or has advice. Then someone else comes along and has answers you never actually heard before and you’re likely to go for it without thinking it through simply because it’s the first place you heard it.
The problem with Gavin's criticism of EO is that he once again retreats back to sola scriptura, but what he means by that is scripture as understood by him and his sect. Every doctrine of the church is based on scripture and tradition. He is not choosing between scripture and church tradition, he is simply choosing his own interpretation of scripture. All the complaints about EO viewing his sect as heterodox is grandstanding when the same is applied back by himself to 2000 years of Christians who venerated holy objects as holy. It would be nice is Gavin spent more time presenting the doctrinal differences with balance rather than making thinly disguised polemical videos designed to sway ignorant audiences. For example, this video finishing with a discussion of gospel assurance was just more begging the question and avoiding the issue of interpretation.
brother aswer my question what did the early church believe because becuase for the first 200 years there was no catholics or orthodoxy and your calling us heretics when you also came from schism
@@SolangeNiyonyishu-m8x What I am saying is that Gavin should stick to actually going through the issues related with the truth about early church teaching and doctrine rather than his deliberately low information polemics. The beliefs and practice of the early church (pre-Nicea) are well known and researched and we have the writings and archaeology to back this up. Simple things like church hierarchy, baptismal regeneration, holy eucharist, chrismation, liturgical worship, trinitarian doctrine, infant baptism, old testament cannon, intercession of the saints etc are early church beliefs. They are taught everywhere the apostles evangelised. They are all defended with scripture and referred to in scriptural writings. Gavin going back to his 'sola scriptura' reading because he doesn't like early church interpretation of scripture is just a way to avoid the issues. For example his complaint about "no salvation outside the church" is silly when this is just a restatement of Jesus' and the apostles teaching. For example, "I am the way, truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except though him." combined with the apostles Paul's words that the church is the body of Christ. Instead of acknowledging that these ideas absolutely arise from scripture and tradition, he uses emotional appeal to imply that this is 'not nice'.
Stop bearing false witness, you can't find any early Christians venerating icons or saints in the first 3-4 centuries, it's an accretion adopted from pagan traditions
@@ryanscaggs1674 me when I lie, false witness is a sin, my guy.. nothing against you, but be better and act smarter, you got it in you, just look for it....
@@SolangeNiyonyishu-m8x This is demonstrably false. The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
_“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])_
Notice that Ignatius does not take pains to introduce the term "Catholic Church"; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century.
I love that scripture! “The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.” I’m so grateful for your ministry Gavin. As a young man from a Protestant background, you’ve helped me find a great peace and comfort in the words of Jesus. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.“ God bless you!
“If you were to go to a Presbyterian church 200 years ago you would find this.” Agreed, but I think that’s part of the struggle - we can’t! I’m all for retrieving historic Protestant worship, but I think we have to recognize this is not going to be easy. The mainline churches have gone far from this, and Evangelical churches will feel they’ve grown because they’ve been seeker-sensitive. While I think many young people want rootedness and tradition, I think many will choose the (seemingly) much easier option of joining traditions where this is ready-made versus trying to fight the uphill battle. Doesn’t mean it’s not a fight worth fighting, I’m just a bit pessimistic at the moment. Hope I’m wrong though!
In a Presbyterian place 200 years ago, women who scolded their husbands wore a scould's muzzle if they refused to decease and kept pushing Eve's Curse to be over Men
@@jimjatras1448 There's plenty of nonsense in Catholic Education and Churches today too. Mary Daly at BC is an infamous feminist; Jesuit Colleges have fired Professors merely for sharing Church teachings.
It saddens me to know that there are so few examples of liturgically robust mainline churches that are theologically sound these days. I’ve been fortunate enough to have worshipped in a few of these over the years and they are like finding a polished gem in a pile of rubble.
Around the 9:30 mark you're totally right. It exhausted me that all online Christian discourse is full of Catholics and Orthodox, and never did I see anyone seriously defending Protestantism. And it's unfortunate because Protestantism gets heavily misrepresented. It was a breath of fresh air to find your channel.
Because protestantism doesn't exist anymore. You're either apart of a magisterial denomination (Roman, Eastern, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian) or you're just an evangelical/baptist
@@ryanscaggs1674 Yeah similar to Nazi (Hitler)or fascist(Mussolini) ideology not existing, people like to use Protestant much in the same way in theological circles. Getting more granular can help, but that takes a lot of work. There still is an overall group of Christians you can class as such so the term does have more usefulness.
Can I just ask, as someone being drawn to Orthodoxy from a Reformed Baptist direction: How can Protestantism be reformed? One church can be reformed, but there is no cohesion. We are not even on the same page within protestantism. It is depressing. Meanwhile everything we desire is right over there in Orthodoxy. I have been wrestling, and I have watched many of your videos and others. My theological hesitations are rather disappearing before the beauty, stability and truth of Orthodoxy. I have been reading the early church fathers. Why do they disagree with my reformed sensibilities and positions? Why do they sound more like EO? Honestly, the Orthodox Church feels like it is complete and full, and it has something we do not. I don't know if I can go back. It's just not the same. Why is the idea to reform protestantism to become like Orthodoxy? People can try to reform all of this mess, but the wheel is already invented. The problems you have raised feel like they have been resolved for me. I haven't arrived at your view on these issues, and I think it's different than you suppose. Have you visited a good Orthodox Church before?
I love that the comments to this video are filled with joyful testimonies from people who have become Orthodox and gotten to know Christ more deeply and fully than ever before. Not the intention of the video, obviously, but it's beautiful to see.
I'm a girl! I am also so sad modern American Christians have rejected so much tradition. It's not bad, and I desperately crave things like lighting candles, hearing hymns/angelic choirs, pretty interior, etc. I also crave to learn more. I'm having to pursue church history, theology etc on my own and I wish more churches would be open to hosting stuff like that. Masculine leadership as well, I do feel strongly about feminism/egalitarianism regarding church government lately.. Men are desperately needed! Thanks for covering it Gavin. I am sad by the lack of coverage on this.
By all means, You can look to the past for inspiration, but don't forget that God is the God of today and His Word is living and active. Seek His presence daily, one on one. Learn to hear His voice and the leading of His Spirit. Your hunger for tradition may just a hunger for His living reality in your life.
Very similar for me. Protestantism has abandoned its distinctive cloak of our savior. I too have to pursue real teaching online due to its absence in church.
Try out Lutheranism, we still light candles (we are going to start this month with our advent ceremonies), we still use hymns, still chant, and our pastors still wear robes. Go to an LCMS, ELS, or WELS church. Don't got to ELCA, they are heretical.
16:53 EO is not concerned with meeting desires…it’s the opposite. It is concerned with transforming the person and overcoming the passions. The person can't conform to a communion that is ever changing.
I get that what I think what he means is that EO does meet desires that should have been also met in protestantism but because of the seeker sensitive movement that has been made exclusive to EO and Catholicism to a lesser degree.
I went to a Nondenominational Church and loved it. I always made arguments against the Orthodox Christian theology…until I studied Early Church history, and knew right then that I could not stay at a ND church. Thank God my heart found its resting place and I am Orthodox Christian.
3 things that completely changed my life 1. I stopped thinking about the past💀 2. l read book : Your Life Your Game by Keezano📕 3. I started believing in God.
Hi Gavin, I’m Catholic and wanted to know why Evangelicals don’t just adopt the Anglican book of Common prayer? It seems like a traditional Protestant practice that could benefit a lot of people. And it is very beautiful. I saw someone else ask this as well in the comments
Probably because they might not know about it honestly. I come from a non-denominational background and for various reasons now attend an Anglican church since last year. Never knew about the book of common prayer until I attended. Wonderful book and I think a lot of Evangelical/Non-denominationals would agree with at least most of the articles of faith
unfortunately a lot of protestants do not see the value in liturgical prayers or understand their purpose and root in Scripture. It would be wonderful if they did though. I am part of the Anglican church and the book of common prayer is one of my biggest reasons for that.
The calvinist monoenergist feels a fatherly burden to protect young men from rejecting monoenergism..... amazing! Lord have mercy. Open this man's heart and eyes.
Great video! I think another reason for the recent trend towards Eastern Orthodoxy is related to new atheism. In our cultural moment thinkers like Richard Dawkins have trained us to be skeptical of any and all rational claims. Orthodoxy has always been perceived as less rationalistic and more mysterious / experience focused than the western churches. Perhaps it’s partly for this same reason Pentecostalism is the fastest growing denomination. It seems to me that western people are less convinced by rational arguments these days, but find the spiritual experience of worship more convincing. Just some thoughts. God bless you Gavin!
I think this is very insightful. Of course we are speculating, but it makes sense with the post-truth culture we live in. Everyone likes to suppose that if people are leaving their tradition, it's because folks are getting dumber, but if people are joining their tradition, it's because people are wising up. Very often it has more to do with larger cultural factors than a sudden burst of light.
I've recently started attending an EO church largely due to reading church history and being convinced through arguments. Most of the church members who were former protestants also state the same reason. I'm not so sure I would just point to people joining because they want to pursue a less rational experience.
Yeah. By the way this isn’t an argument against Eastern Orthodox tradition. It’s just an observation. Looks as though culturally we’re pendulum-swinging towards beauty (more clearly transcendent to our new atheist minds) as opposed to truth claims (viewed with suspicion) in the west.
I'm from India, and the situation here is quite different. Many believers from Orthodox and Catholic backgrounds are joining Protestant churches. Additionally, conversions from Hinduism and Islam are predominantly towards Protestant churches. As a result, the Christian population is growing significantly in India.
Meanwhile I have started seeing indians in the Orthodox churches in Russia for the very first time. I think it's not that the people are becoming protestants, more that the people are becoming Christian. But in India, these people are still few and far between.
I think people who are serious about their faith look for a church that is also serious about its teachings. a LOT of Protestant churchs in the west have mixed themselfs with a lot of secularism, where some churches don't even read from the Bible anymore, it's become a joke. again not all churches just a very large number.
You have made some good points, I will give you that. I am not masculine, but I had some of these questions back in the late 1990's. I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy back in 1997. I have found the TRUTH I sought. I will die in this great Faith and Church of Jesus. Protestant no longer. PRAISE GOD@
One HUGE reason for people converting that I think doesn’t get stressed in your video is that orthodoxy, along with its connection to heritage and tradition, puts a MASIVE emphasis on spiritual formation and practices. This has been sorely missing from Protestantism because of our allergic reaction to anything emphasizing works. It is super important to understand where this is coming from because Protestants have a TON to learn from this.
I came back to Christianity after 27 years of apostasy and living a sinful life. I wasn't sure where to go, so I started going to my nearest church, which happened to be Anglican. However, i eventually stumbled on Eastern Orthodoxy and haven't looked back since! Praise be to God.
Just bought your book! As a former Baptist who became an Anglo-Catholic and seriously considered becoming Roman Catholic, your videos have helped me to see that there are good arguments for Protestantism that are not based on strawmen, and the beauty of traditional Protestantism!
So, you decided to join the church started by a horny king instead Christ, the Son of God? It's either EO, OO, Catholicism or if none of the above, then just non-denominationalism (philosophical Christianity), but these classical protestant branches or later revival movements aren't even serious choices.
Traditional Protestantism is like a paradox. If you go to the roots of Protestantism, you're at Luther. But most evangelical Christians I know don't believe anything he believed. Makes no sense.
@@cerealbowl7038 The founding father of Protestantism, Luther, believed in Real Presence and had a high view of Our Lady. How many latter-day Protestants are like that?
I'm a young man and love what I have learned from orthodoxy and hope to further educate myself in it and if God willing become a catechumen sometime in the near future, Glory to God 🙏❤☦
Genuine question, then- are you okay with everyone outside the Orthodox Church being anathematized simply for rejecting the ultimate authority of that church and for regarding such doctrines as Mary's perpetual virginity and the veneration of icons as false? I get the appeal of the Orthodox Church as an alternative to watered-down evangelical worship. What I don't understand is why the appeal of the "expression" of a particular kind of church experience would supersede questions of fundamental doctrine when determining one's church allegiance.
@@johnnythegringo8855 Yes, I'm completely aware and fine with the position the church holds on these matters. At the end of the day the church is the mirror of Christ on earth, it has the power to bind and lose. and it's not just about the watered-down evangelism it's also what the catholic church decided to do with becoming a more geopolitical centric view of Christianity and trying to appeal to everyone. and to me it's not just an expression if it were just that than I wouldn't care about orthodoxy I clearly see myself being closer to God there, his teachings are at work in the church, and I feel that. just go to a liturgy irl, the online community can be draining you need to look at it for yourself. I pray you be blessed 🙏❤
@abominable.7800 Fair enough. I'm not sure how you arrive at those doctrinal positions scripturally, but I appreciate that you took the time to respond to me.
13:26 “The Orthodox aren’t says you’re doing church badly, they’re saying you’re not doing church. They say we don’t have the Eucharist..” Exactly, right. Im not saying they’re all damned, but they do not have the Eucharist, any sacraments, valid priests, or even the right understanding of scripture.
When Gavin says “We need to retrieve historic expressions of worship”. I can only think this man is a prophetic voice to the evangelical/protestant branch of Christianity. I myself am a young men that sometimes struggles in finding historic rootedness in my local church community. I can clearly see this urgent need you speak of. We need renewal and reform.
@@andygarcia2113they are joining a church that has a leader openly speaking heresy to the world such as all religions leading to God? Sounds like the world following its own whims to me. Until yall rebuke and remove the current Pope, I cannot trust that yall care about the sanctity of doctrine. I don’t care if it wasn’t ex cathedra when he said that, and neither does any non-Christian who heard him say that.
Simple solution - go to the Church that needs no reform and has remained constant in its teachings and practice - that is... Orthodoxy. You will not find peace until you eventually come home.
33:36 Who's interpretation of Scripture? Yours? Theirs? I'll go with the martyrs and saints, I'll go with Saint Ignatius of Antioch martyr and disciple of Saint John the apostle.
Gavin, as a young Protestant man looking into Eastern Orthodoxy, I’ve been watching all your videos nonstop. I’ve been talking to EO Christians online for months. Jay Dyer has been a large influence on me questioning Protestantism. I’m still Protestant, but struggling with to make sense of the lack of 5 solas taught in early church, and the formation of the canon from a Protestant perspective. Thank you for all your continuous hard work. Please continue to make your content, as you’re (in my opinion) one of the main reasons I’m still Protestant. I don’t want to leave, and your videos provide a lot of clarity on this topic and help make sense of this ecclesiastical anxiety. God Bless
The good news is that the Solae are abundantly present throughout the history of the church, if not poorly clarified/ defined. The issues Dyer presents against the historic protestant position simply do not work. Stay the course dear brother!
@@hackbounties114 not so, there was since the time of Moses always available primarily Jewish texts that that was studied, read, and agreed upon as being authoritative. It wasn’t until Jesus and the NT church do we find new revelations about Jesus and the church that informed the NT cannon that developed much later.
Anyone who declares to you that the five solae were not taught in the early church is banking on the fact that you haven't read the Patristics>> St. John Chrysostom, Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles: “There comes a heathen and says, I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose? How shall we answer him? Each of you (says he) asserts, ' I speak the truth.' (b) No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule. … We all confess that Christ is God. But let us see who fight (against this truth), and who not.”
I am a young Protestant seminarian. It makes me genuinley happy to see people turn to the Lord, but it breaks my heart to see people who are only interested in Christianity for the aesthetics, the vibes, the culture, the influence, the art, the clout, etc. instead of God's redemptive work in his people through the reality of the Gospel. Please pray for me and I don't want to follow God only in talk and not in mind or action or affection, etc. I long to be with him and his people. God bless you Dr. O and everybody here!
@@Thatoneguy-pu8tythank you, I hope that my wife and I can somehow use our gifts to serve the world and God. I love watching Dr. Ortlund and his videos
I truly mean this as no offense, but your comment is chock-full of iconoclastic sentiments. There is not the separation you’re describing in the theology or the practice of Orthodoxy. You’re describing idolatry, not iconography.
I am a former "Evangelical" Pastor, I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy in August. One of the major reasons was it appears that Protestantism is collapsing under the weight of "cultural relevance" I was an emergent church Pastor, I pushed some of this agenda. I have since repented. Protestantism is only 500 years old and I have found while studying the early Christian fathers that Protestantism invented an entirely new theology in comparison. Thank God, I am finally home.
It's happening because protestantism is not ancient with most sects coming out of America. People want more than comedy shows, a rock concert and comfort. Christianity is a martyrdom and the way to achieve the fullness of faith is to become Orthodox. Alot of protestant churches say they are Bible believing while they aren't Orthodox. The Bible was written by our saints, our faith is Apostolic and if people really believed the Bible the road will lead to Orthodoxy but if people want to loosely interpret scripture for there self, running away from it's true meaning then staying protestant and evangelical is for you.
I came back to the orthodox church from protestantism. Best decision of my life! The worship, spirituality and grace is beyond words one can express. The true church of Christ founded at Pentecost! ☦️💜
As an Orthodox Christian with plenty of Christian friends who are Protestant (and also RC…I live in America) it gives me joy to see Christians of any stripe take seriously the Gospel and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles and practice them. What you say in this video encouraging people to seek stability, strength, wisdom, peace etc in God…Father, Son, Holy Spirit…this is a “fully Orthodox” statement, a teaching that we Orthodox and you share. As humans who sin; we all must continually repent and turn our hearts to God. Merely joining a group…Roman Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox… won’t help us if we don’t continually turn our hearts to God in repentance and obedience to the Lord. That is what we Christians…Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant… need to do. As far as which tradition to join, I believe we should seek the Lord’s guidance on that and listen. Go where He calls you to be. Pray for others. Love one another.
you're lowk giving too much ecumenism, but what you say is right, and when we weigh all denominations, Orthodoxy is the only one that comes out on top.
@@patrickbarnes9874 Wait, do you construe fullness to mean that it is only found there, rather than to mean that it is there in entirety? (Relevant context: I'm not EO.)
I fell into the category of young men looking for a rooted church. After searching for some time, God led me to a Baptist church that has been where it is for 120 years. We have a robust worship and preaching style that is rooted in reformed Baptist theology, which instantly appealed to me more than the more flashy things I’d seen in other churches. It’s also worth noting that over 70% of our members are involved in serving the church in some way… which is unusual for most evangelical or nondenominational churches.
I would say that the fact that you have a preaching style, no matter how wonderful and authentic it is, means you aren't rooted. Rooted worship is liturgical.
@ That depends on how you define liturgy. In Greek, leitourgia is roughly translated to “work of the people” or “public service.” Unless your church bars off outsiders, it’s liturgical in some sense even if not held in cathedrals or involving Gregorian chants. It’s kind of like saying “canine” when being asked what kind of dog you have.
I hear you Gavin. They compare the worst of Protestantism to their best. And there’s so much beauty to be found in Protestantism. Sometimes it may feel like you shouting into the void but we hear you!
It's actually because they are rejecting a morally subjective society; they are sick of it. And Protestantism, by nature, is theologically subjective at its core. Therefore, they don't want it either.
The best of prots isn't even 1000 years old and still hella heretical, unlike true traditional Christianity which has been here 2000 and is here to stay (EO)
It's not about beauty it's about the ultimate truth. Beauty is subjective and arbitrary what's beautiful to me could be ugly too you. Searching for beauty is a flawed way of thinking when in search of a denomination.
I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy without watching anything on youtube about it. When my son was born I found myself in crisis, trying to understand how I was supposed to raise him. I prayed everyday for guidance. "God, thank you for my son, please show me what to do." My wife and I were driving around and we passed an Orthodox church and she mentioned that her great grandparents had gone there. I felt something inside. I can't describe it. We stopped and went in and I knew immediately that we were supposed to be there. A year later we underwent chrismation and a few months after that my son and new daughter were baptized. I've never in my life felt more at peace about any decision. There will never be an end of online discussion about religion. You could watch a hundred videos about why Orthodoxy is right and a hundred videos about why Orthodoxy is wrong. Pray, sincerely, and don't let the noise in your own head drown out the answers you will receive.
I began pastoring earlier this year in an non-Denominational English speaking church in Frankfurt, Germany. I read your book theological triage 6 months ago and it has been tremendously helpful navigating a church that is so theologically varied. And now I discovered you have your own UA-cam channel! Thank you Pastor Gavin, your ministry is such a blessing to many! Glory to God!
I am an Eastern Catholic. I had always gone for the Latin mass, but the enthusiasm and vigor of Eastern Orthodox converts have made me a very faithful EASTERN Catholic once again. Love you guys!
My husband and I are so grateful to have finally found our spirital home in Orthodoxy! When I converted from lifelong protestantism into the Orthodox Church I felt like I moved from living on theological scraps from under the table, to sitting upright at the table, at the actual feast seeing the complete dishes. Truly, I had never before even practiced daily repentance!!! Christ is so loving and abundant in mercy, and repentance is such an important practice that is us daily exercising our faith in Christ to heal our infirmities (spiritual, emotional, physical). And he is SO faithful. It's truly beautiful to see Him work in our total surrender. The scriptures and the lived experience of being a Christ follower have never been as real to me as it all is today, living out my faith for Christ within the Orthodox Church. Thank God! 🙏❤️☦️
@@MartinC262 Nope, I watched a lot of his videos and other orthodox vides, even RC videos. Not one of them address the issue Gavin raised properly. Some of them even misrepresents the issue that Gavin raised.
It's always so perplexing to hear protestants express concern over Orthodox Christianity when NONE of their churches even existed more than about 500 years ago. If you could travel back 1000 years, you would find Eastern Orthodox churches and dogma. You wouldn't find a single vestige of Protestantism.
This is a presupposition that is blatantly false there were groups of Christians throughout the ages that never joined with Rome or Constantinople, and they were mercilessly persecuted for this. Study the history of the Waldenses and the ancient history of the Celtic churches before the 6th century.
I went to an Orthodox church and almost converted, but I just couldn't get over the idea of the intercession of saints. Now I'm thinking of joining a Lutheran church. I still want some level of "traditional" liturgical service but without the veneration of saints.
Me too lol felt weird about it and looked it up and found Gavin's videos and sure enough it's paganism 😂 the orthodox and Catholic churchs support of venerating icons or venerating Mary is absolutely baseless and both church's need to be reformed which will probably never happen considering how long they've been doing it
As a former Protestant from a very traditional Anglican Church, becoming orthodox was not a move to find tradition. But rather the beauty of the Orthodox church and seeing how we are meant to participate in the story and person of Christ. I don’t think that returning to traditional Protestant worship will solve the problem. As nothing can replace the Divine Liturgy, and the Orthodox Church’s ability to participate in Christ. Don’t convert to orthodoxy to find a tradition, but look for Gods revelation to the human heart, his son Jesus Christ.
Love your videos Gavin I did make my way to EO. I watched your videos again and again and wrestled for a long time but from what ive seen and researched I came to believe that EO has the fullness of the faith. I will be joining seminary but a EO seminary. Appreciate you as always and you always fighting for Christ though.
This hits deep! And is one of the reasons I'm in such a place of confusion right now. Although I'm a woman, I see pastors and I don't see the example of calmness and peacefulness, holiness, kindness... And the fruits of the Spirit. I've only seen that in one pastor who is 80+years old. I do want to grow in the faith (I got saved last year) but I so rarely see good examples.
@@EmilTennis00 with complete understanding of why and where it comes from (In my own ignorance I too used to think it was idolatry) yes, and happily do so. But we don’t pray through them. We ask them for prayer on our behalf. Still pray to Jesus 😊
Most of the young converts in the US to Orthodoxy are just exchanging one form of fundamentalism for another. DB Hart calls them evangelical fundamentalists with icons. Many thoughtful Orthodox are alarmed at what American Orthodoxy has become. It’s the latest trend for young men that need security. In the early 2000s it was Reformed fundamentalism now it’s Orthodox and TradCath fundamentalism. It will change again as the years go by. A man secure with Jesus within himself no longer needs or cares about these false securities that will in the end not give them what they are looking for. Ultimately, the issue is within themselves. We have to grow, do our spiritual homework, and live life. Changing the scenery doesn’t fix it. To be fair, Evangelicalism is largely a joke at this point but there are plenty of stable church traditions to go to. Orthodoxy is not the only corner of truth.
This where the loud online "orthobro" comes from, who says you have to join the "one true church" to be saved, but many of these only joined for identitarian reasons rather than theology. A lot of them are probably closet agnostics.
To the extent that there's a legitimate point here (which there is to a degree, although it's overstated), citing Hart undermines the point rather than reinforcing it. According to Hart, adherence to any traditional form of Christianity is "fundamentalism". Having Hart call you a "fundamentalist" is a good thing.
@@ryanward72 Hart is devoutly Eastern Orthodox. In my reading of Hart I don’t see your statement to be accurate or remotely true. I don’t think the point is overstated at all. In the US we are grown in a garden of competing fundamentalisms, political, religious, even down to consumer options. The US is inundated with fundamentalism more so than anywhere else in the world. I think it’s not stated enough. It’s built into the American psyche. Also, keep in mind that I prefaced my statement with most not all converts. Lastly, fundamentalism does not equal traditional. Often what many fundamentalist label as traditional are often modern aberrations.
@@Tiredhike If DBH was devoutly EO he'd affirm the fifth ecumenical council and condemn Origen and universalism. But instead he tries to rewrite history to make the Orthodox Church something it's not. The 5th council was largely reiterating local synods and church fathers who condemned Origen because of his universalist ideas. I don't think he's a good representative of EO at all.
@@JohnMaximovich-r8x I appreciate your opinion and disagree with almost all of it. However, the point of my post was not about DB Hart and now we’re just gonna go back and forth on differing opinions of what it means to be devoutly Orthodox. I’m just not interested in doing that. Again, my post was not about getting wrangled into a debate about Hart. God Bless
A couple points that perhaps you have overlooked One difficulty is that the outlook of Protestant Christianity is very self focused. You touch on this after a fashion but sort of miss the real point I think. But all these things people are complaining about really touch at this issue. Even the idea of having a sermon at the center of the service caters to the individual, as opposed to a Eucharistic Liturgy in which the focus is on the unity of the Church and joining together in this sacred act of worship. Jordan Peterson has taught a generation of young men to look away from themselves and find meaning through self sacrifice. This has really resonated far beyond even tide who have heard him. But we're not finding this in protestantism. Sure you preach it in theory but in practice the rugged individualism that has become the focus of modern protestantism is turning these young men away. What you will really see is something that all the points you are making are ultimately aiming at, which is for us to be joined to something greater than ourselves, where salvation isn't a me and Jesus matter. And for those of you reading i want you to understand this point, this "me and Jesus" type of thinking is really what is driving young men away the most. And they're finding an answer to these problems in Orthodoxy. Part of the issue is that Protestantism is theoretical, but orthodoxy is existential. You have a lot of very good ideas in Protestantism but they are detached from the world of lived experience. What that means is, we don't know how they actually apply and are useful in this moment. Orthodoxy on the other hand is all about living in the present, and seeing the faith as a practical thing which requires but merely your rational consent but actually living it out. I could say a lot more but i think this is getting at the heart of the matter.
The problem with Reason #1 is that it's seeking after something that doesn't exist. Society is chaotic, and people need stability. The problem is that however sympathetic the desire is, seeking stability and a lack of change becomes idolatrous insofar as we direct our hope and trust in anything but Jesus Christ and the promise of his Gospel. Trying to find perfection in The Church itself (rather than in the Jesus who promises to meet us there) will become a 'theology of glory' which can never be satisfied and continually needs defending until it can no longer be defended when you realize each and every church's feeble humanity -- abandoning it as a false church, in search once again for the true and uncorrupted "original."
What do you mean? Christ came to establish His Church, not give you a bible and stay at home. I think bibles can become idolatrous if not seeking the person behind it...The scriptures point to His Church.🤷♂Not someone with the greatest education to lead ppl to Christ. Then the Jews should not of built their temple to worship God but simply read the Old Testament at home. Oh wait a minute God told them to build the temple.
@@TitusCastiglione1503Exactly, he’s essentially saying, “you should settle for horrendous mediocrity at your Protestant church and simply read your Bible at home because anything that gives off the perception of stability and historicity is a stumbling block”… unbelievable cope
@@TitusCastiglione1503Exactly, he’s implying you should stay home, read your Bible, and settle for nearly blasphemous church services because too much stability will be a stumbling block… does he not realize the fixation of Christ in the liturgy is nearly constant?
I was raised Baptist. I learned about EO online through the work of Jonathan Pageau. I found Gavin Ortlund because I knew that I needed to hear a Protestant voice to give an informed response. THANK YOU, GAVIN.
If you went to Pageau then you did not learn about Orthodoxy. Pageau does not represent the Orthodox faith. He is Orthodox and he uses Orthodox symbology and concepts in his content, but his content isn't Orthodox. His content is secular flavored with Orthodoxy. It's like learning about military history by playing Call of Duty.
Why listen to a protestant voice when you can listen to the voices of people who learned from the apostles themselves, (early church fathers) why would gavin be better than someone who learned from Paul and Peter and John personally. (They teach nothing like protestantism btw)
@@patrickbarnes9874 Why would you go to a hostile/critical external source to learn about something to get a "informed decision?" Should I go to a Jewish rabbi or Muslim imam to learn about specific strain of Protestantism?
I grew up Southern Baptist, but I realized all the contemporary music and lack of solid sound doctrine and I spent a lot of time searching. It may sound like very little change to you, but I became a King James Bible-believing Baptist after seeing overwhelming evidence that the KJV is the perfect word of God. And I realize that will make me really look out of place here. The video "Thy Word be Verified" by Truth is Christ truly is overwhelming evidence and data that no bible on the planet has a chance against the AV 1611. It's not popular to take such a position, but I stand by my beliefs. So there is a difference and I'm definitely a different kind of Baptist than Gavin judging by that. Sound doctrine is essential to us and getting the gospel out however possible through scripture signs, gospel tracts, street preaching, and of course simply asking people about eternity. We are called to do the work of an evangelist. And the old traditional hymns certainly have a power that CCM does not have. I'm curious, do great hymns like "Amazing Grace," "How Can it Be?" or "Beneath the Cross of Jesus" actually mean something to an Orthodox Christian? Was the Holy Ghost involved in these songs even if the writers were Protestants? Study the lives of people like Charles Wesley, Fanny Crosby, and Horatio Spafford. God was clearly evident in their lives. My point is there is true faith in Jesus Christ outside of Eastern Orthodoxy. I was useless to God in a Neo-evangelical church, but now God has emboldened me to go out and do the "apostolic tradition" of street evangelism and be a fool for Jesus Christ. I am most definitely an introvert who does not like the spotlight. I never thought I'd be anything to God, but his grace was sufficient for me (2 Cor 12:9) to serve him. I feel a burden for lost souls and I can't stand to think about people going to hell because I didn't warn them. I have clearly seen the hand of God in my life in how he has protected me and directed me. I know whom I have believed in. As an individual, I don't know if you are saved, but I hope that you are fully leaning on Jesus Christ for salvation and not an institution. I hope you think on these things. I will pray for you.
I go to a non-denominational church, but that's only because I'm a baptist in an area where the only baptist churches are those with ~20 members, moslty older people. I'd really like to see a push for non-denom churches to join baptist denominations since the theology is usually the same.
As an Orthodox Christian who converted out of the Methodist Church I was raised in, I can say the lack of stability was a big part of that. Not just the cultural shifts away from traditional liturgy, the old 18th century hymns I'd grown up singing (many of which I still sing on my own), but seeing first hand how much what we were being taught depended on the pastor. In roughly 8 years, ages 11-19, we went from singing the old Charles Wesley Hymns to the same Christian Pop songs I'd heard on the radio on the ride to church, nearly blocked the congregation's view of a gorgeous and beloved stained glass window of Jesus in favor of a giant TV, thankfully the elderly among us basically revolted and the idea was scrapped, we replaced the real candles at Christmas, Holy Friday, and All Saints Day with plastic battery powered tea lights, but much more importantly, there were doctrinal and moral changes too, most of which were not congruent with scripture. The reason these little, surface level changes away from traditional worship matter, is because it signals a more relaxed attitude (not in a good way). In our desperation to make people feel welcome, we've slowly let go of tiny pieces of who we are and the more of these little compromises we make, the easier it becomes to compromise on doctrinal, moral, and practical matters.
It depends. Many are converting to "traditional" Christianity (and religion generally) in the West for reasons of cultural decline resistance. Thankfully, even impure motivation is used by the Holy Spirit -- but it's still a troublesome and undiagnosed issue. Instrumentalized faith (even with innocent intentions) is never good.
2:54 Yeah, no. Stay away from any of these captured “Education Institutions” - make sure to do your homework and ensure that they are who they say they are.
As a 44 year old woman, I was the one drawn to Orthodoxy before my husband ever was. I was raised in a Protestant family. We have been attending an Orthodox parish for about 2.5 years. Orthodoxy is a way of life. Your life becomes Eucharistic. Giving a life time confession, being baptized, and then partaking of the Eucharist is life changing. I can’t even put into words how this has transformed our life and immediate household. We absolutely are greatful beyond words for this Orthodox Faith. Christ is the head and we are His body. We give all the glory to the all Holy Trinity. Naturally, we want this faith for all people. We desire us to be unified in one faith, one Lord and one baptism. You just can’t find it anywhere else. May God have mercy on us all. May we truly desire Christ’s truth and not our own version of it.
Thank you for your comment, but how do you get around the idolatry of bowing and kissing photos of the dead and praying to the dead? I loved the orthodox church for all the same reasons, but I can't pray to a dead person. For me, tradition is not above the word of God. Please explain, I am not trying to argue with you, but truly asking how you dealt with that. Thanks!
I agree. The Orthodox Church Service is like stepping into the Poem of Life. It is a perfect worship liturgy, with every word being Holy, every tone. Nothing extra added, like a perfect poem that expresses it all. The Bible is like that. And Protestants with sola scripture must feel that way. I am currently stuck between both worlds.
20:32 - Reforming current Protestant practices will only result in further splintering the Church into innumerably more denominations. Come back to Orthodoxy instead - the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
My family and I join the Orthodox Church last year. That's my wife, myself and our 3 children. I was 35 when I started this journey. I found Nothing of substance in the modern "churches".
Honestly, from what I've seen this trend tends to be very unChristian and carnal in motivation. There's a lot of "Ortho-Bro" attitude out there. Which tends to be a lot more manosphere/red-pill than it is Christian. Often if you encounter these guys online and challenge their espoused views with Scripture, you find pretty quickly that they actually don't care that much about the Christian faith. It really is more about the aesthetic than it is the about the Truth, to the point where if the two ever come in conflict, they will most often favor the aesthetic over the Truth. They want the "ancient" and "manly", but not so much the Christ. They actually want Rome (or Byzantium), more so than they want Christ. They tend to take only the Christ they like, i.e. flipping the tables over, and discard everything else wherever it's convenient for them. Some people will think that I'm being unfair, but I've engaged with a LOT of these guys in comment threads, and I see what I've described here pretty consistently. I'm not saying that this is the norm within the Eastern Orthodox Church, but it does seem to be common among a lot of these new young converts (on the internet) they are receiving, and their elders do not seem to be doing much of anything to correct their errors.
I am a Protestant of the Dutch reformed tradition. We have a rich history and ground our services in the history of the Reformation. We also sing Psalms primarily, with a few hymns and modern songs as long as they're grounded in Scripture. I appreciate this church because it hasn't strayed from the church tradition established in the cannons of Dort in 1618, as well as the other documents found in the three forms of unity : the Belgic confession (1561) and the Heidelberg catechism (1563).
I am a protestant for now and have been from birth. Only because I haven't decided where to land yet. I'm making my way through the church fathers and the early church seems more inline with RC and EO views. I no longer believe in credobaptism (I know many protestants don't either), I reject PSA and I believe in apostolic succession. I now realize how much of my upbringing was colored by reformed presuppositions I'm not trying to disparage your love for your traditions but when protestants go Dort or Heidelberg or the reformation you open yourself up for the EO or RC to reframe their traditions as highly more ancient. Everytime I hear about the wonders of the reformers, my visceral response is so what. I care about the wonders of Justin Matyr, Ireneaus, and Clement (both of them). Why go back to the Renaissance, when I can go back to the end of the apostolic age. Even St. Patrick is more appealing to me than John Wesley, and I went to a Wesleyan School. I've been to about 22 different churches in 2024 from Egyptian Coptics to Assembly of God. And if you want to retain your flock I think you need to go to other churches and learn their doctrines as well. Talking to someone who's RC and EO as a protestant is like talking to a European as an American. Each side has their own pressuppositions and assumptions about the other.
@@juniper-ug3hs PSA is in the bible. Isaiah 53, etc. Galatians 3:14 declares Christ to have become a curse for us. If that's not PSA, what is that? There's definitely more one could point to.
@BernardinusDeMoor you're equating sacrifice and exchange with punishment. Galatians talks about redemption. Cursed is a man who hangs on a tree refers to deuteronomy. The man is cursed because he is a criminal guilty of murder, already put to death and hung on display and the order is to not let his corpse rot on the tree overnight. Christ was innocent. Ransom theory, Christus Victor, etc. They have Jesus dying in exchange or in place of us to conquer death and destroy Satan. Not as a punishment. PSA wasn't explicitly codified until Anselm in the 8th century.
@@juniper-ug3hs Yes, it refers to Deuteronomy. Christ bears the curse in our stead. That's penal (a curse) substitutionary (in our stead) atonement. >Christ was innocent. Yes, this is a fairly essential part of PSA. >Ransom theory, Christus Victor, etc. Yes, more than one theory of the atonement can be true at once, as they describe different aspects of Christ's work. >PSA wasn't explicitly codified until Anselm in the 8th century Sure it was. For one example, Athanasius appears to describe it in In the Incarnation section 20, with the reference to Christ becoming a sacrifice in order that our debt be paid.
@BernardinusDeMoor what is the curse? Death. Exchanging your life for another's is sacrifice but not punishment. He willing allowed himself to be killed to conquer death. Athanasius also in section 23 and 24 goes into more detail on why Christ died on the cross. To defeat Satan, die publicly, serve as a icon of uniting jews and gentiles, and die with a unified body. The saint is heavily venerated by the EO and RC. If he affirmed PSA, don't you think they would too? Also, the other theories are present in the early fathers. PSA is not. It also creates more problems with the functioning of the trinity if Christ is a recipient of God's wrath rather than an offered sacrifice killed by Satan and the world. You don't get to lump all atonement theories together and claim they are synergistic when they aren't. If the logical implications of your theory form a picture of "Christ's work" to use your words that is contrary to the other theories, then I don't see how you get to hold it on equal footing.
Gavin, I am very glad you put in significant time and effort toward your ministry on UA-cam. These conversations are needed and are much appreciated. I often find myself in agreement with much of what you express, and in our differences I find myself stimulated to look deeper. I have been researching church history for most of this year past, the early church, church councils, schisms and the reformation and have learned a great deal. There's more still to learn, yeah, quite a bit, but I feel comfortable in that I've grasped a fair amount of the structure of it all. But I have been listening, examining what the Orthodox have to say about themselves, their theology, their perspective on church history and their view of how one might live a more fulfilling life. I think you've hit many things about Orthodoxy right on the mark but I also consider that at times you may have over-emphasized what you think of them at the expense of what they are actually saying about themselves. Commenting further on that is beyond the scope of what I am here to say. I am seriously considering joining with the Orthodox - I was raised Southern Baotist and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I am his, he knows me and I know him. Nothing about that will change, should I become Eastern Orthodox, whatever anyone else may say. I think you are mostly right in many of the reasons why young men might leave protestantism and join with the Orthodox, but in my case it goes further. I have not found the fellowship of other Christians who are deeply in love with Jesus in my church of origin, rather people with thin expressions of it, people overwhelmed with the concerns of this world. There's been little of the deeper growth, of anything respecting mystery or Mysticism or of a deep daily, moment by moment walk with Jesus. Yet these factors are major aspects of the life and teachings of Orthodoxy. In short, I've felt lonely for many years - I've not failed to deepen with Jesus but its been far and away a solo adventure. Politics, the Christian Nationalism movement, the desire for worldly power, and an out of bounds sense of self importance/superiority on the parts of many of my fellow Southern Baptists has been more the rule. In truth, I have often found myself thinking "aren't we supposed to be changed and transformed from the world, rather than come to increasingly resemble it?" I am looking for "the real" Christianity and the fellowship of others looking for it, too. I think it may exist in Orthodoxy in a fuller sense than in any other place I've looked, and so I am studying it carefully. At the moment, I'm looking for a reason not to join but so far after listening to the Orthodox talk about what they are doing, I am not finding one. We'll see where it goes.
People leaving for Orthodoxy are looking for and finding consistency and stability among other things. As someone that’s hopped around Protestant denominations most of my time as a Christian I agree and I’m going EO also. From my experience it is the Church of the apostles.
A recent convert from the Protestant church to the Eastern Orthodox Church wrote the following: “We are finding a beauty in the Orthodox Church that resonates with our minds and hearts. We describe what we are experiencing as unity, mystery, community, humility, an ancient sacredness, a healing of the soul, as well as love, joy and peace . . . My wife and I feel like we are coming home to the fullness of the faith.” We are witnessing a revival in the hearts of young men in America. It’s a revival drawing them to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I agree with Dr. Ortlund that the Protestant Church and the Roman Catholic Church can learn from the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Dr Gavin’s response to orthodox conversion is “Reform and renewal in church practice” ya y’all been doin that for 500 years it’s not working that’s why we go back to the very beginning. Pre-denominational. I appreciate Dr Gavin and how charitable he is though. Glory to Jesus Christ ☦️
You know one of the mottos of the reformers was: Semper Reformanda! Which means "Always reforming!" So as Jesus hold the Jews accountable to the sure word of God, the same way we have to check whether there crept unbiblical traditions in the church. It was very much the case at the time of Luther in the RC!
@@Metanoia235always reforming also implies forever corrupted and flawed. Because why would it need reforming in the first place if it wasn't for doctrinal error or corruption of the faith. Which is a strange way of viewing the Body of christ which is the church.
I grew up Evangelical, and largely stopped going to church because it’s ‘what’s in my head’ that mattered. The last Protestant service I attended had headstones on the projectors, a gas can on the lectern, and a self-help message with an alter call. I learned of church history and humbled myself to accept the beliefs of those who came before me. I started attending EO churches, and later became Orthodox, almost 4 years ago.
I am hesitant to join Eastern Orthodox formally because of this 'masculine' trend. It's almost like its part of a spiritual/religious side of these self-improvement lifestyles.
Eh, I won’t judge their intent just yet. Sometimes God works through trends like that to draw those who are truly seeking Him, so I will leave judgement to God on that. Let’s just pray that the Lord guide them and produce the fruits of the Spirit in their lives.
I get that. But you should try reading the words of our saints and going to an actual parish/parishes instead of judging it by what you see online, which is filled with polemics and engagement bait.
The best thing to do is to try as much as possible to ignore the trends and be as influenced as possible either way. It's just as much of a mistake to avoid a tradition because of trends as it is to join it because of trends. The Orthodox church makes a set of claims about what it means to genuinely follow Jesus. If you find those claims convincing you should convert. If you don't, you shouldn't. Everything else is a distraction.
I loved this. It spoke so much to my current struggle as I become exposed to church history and different views within the faith. The ending pastoral exhortation is always the most important part of your videos in my opinion. A call to be grounded "on Christ the solid rock" for "all other ground is sinking sand." Thank you for this reminder as I feel tossed by the waves of uncertainty. I know Christ offers forgiveness to we who repent and trust in him and I am in Christ. Thank you Lord, and thank you Gavin for your ministry.
I was Protestant for most of my life. I found the Orthodox Church by trying to make an argument to my Baptist husband for Catholicism. It’s impossible to understand Orthodoxy outside of Orthodoxy. The liturgical life and practices of the church have been life changing. My only regret is that I didn’t find it sooner.
It should be Jesus that is life changing. If it is anything different it isn't from God. Paul said at the entrance of the temple "I don't have silver and gold" but all I see in EO churches is everything full of gold. It is appalling to me!
Jesus alone changed my life.
@@sweatt4237 Wonderful! Praise be to God! So stay on the way and grow in the Lord and his word!
@@Metanoia235 The Church is the Body of Christ, and the pillar and ground of truth. You encounter Christ fully in Orthodoxy. I was a Protestant for 30 years. Protestantism doesn't even come close.
@@sweatt4237 welcome the club. He left a Church. Not a bible btw
...
I converted to Orthodoxy in April. The best decision I ever made.
Same here, I was baptized in April!
The best decision i ever made was to follow Christ
@@g01tr3 are you born again?
Same! My wife and I were baptized on Lazarus Saturday.
@@bruceroberts8614 are you born again?
As a 31 year old man, I feel like I found a home in Orthodoxy
Same except I’m 32 lol
Ditto
Same here 31 lol.something is happening. im seeing this everywhere.
@Usernamebreh we just a buncha 31 years olds tryna figure it out
Truth isnt about how you "feel". Usually the cozy feeling is probably a sign of bad theology and false doctrine, which sums up the orthodox religion.
I was raised Jewish, baptised Eastern Catholic and now Eastern Orthodox. TIME TO COME HOME!
I wish your fellow Eastern Catholics would do the same. Instead, they choose to both mimic, and live in function of, the Orthodox Church.
May God bless you brother 🙏
My heart is full to read this. You made my day. I really hope that the local churches in Europe would start emphasizing more beautiful aspects of second-temple Judaism in Orthodoxy. All the best, brother.
Welcome home.
Jeremiah 6:16
I am an orthodox woman. My husband and I were both Protestant but found ourselves disenchanted with the church. The Protestant church seemed afraid of deep questions and was frankly so American. Even conservative “historical” orthodox churches, I just felt were so bound to western culture. I know this is hard to wrap our minds around but orthodoxy made sense of EVERYTHING. It was the first and only place I have found that have answered my questions in a solid way.
My brother attends a Charismatic Pentecostal Church. Everything evolves around the Pastor. There is no organization. Randomly he'll feel the Holy Spirit so the service is just praying together by laying hands and "speaking in tongues".
He prayed for my Husbands back (6 surgeries from spondylolisthesis), beside me, and he went from English to nonsense language and it repulsed my Husband.
In his words "it turned me off, it felt fake".
Not to mention the dancing, jumping around, shouting in tongues.
They play the same few Protestant songs about the Holy Spirit. On a big screen in the dark.
I'm thankful my brother invited us but my 5 year old at the time had to wear headphones because of the music and we were starting to think he had sensory problems/autism because he'd have such a bad reaction.
After discovering Orthodoxy, I spent a year reading and watching documentaries about Early Church Fathers, learned the Creed and went to my first Divine Liturgy. I convinced my Husband to come but he was very apprehensive at first so me and my son went.
We were recently received into the Romanian Orthodox Christian Church of North America. As a family. My Husband likes to attend and nobody expects him to stand all the time. We have pews and everyone goes between standing and sitting. We sit for the Gospel.
Now (I wish I could share a video) but my son who is now 8, read in front of the Church twice, and Father said he's a good reader and can spend many years reading in the Church.
The difference is night and day. I suffered from severe sleep paralysis and paranormal activity involving the same "entity" for many years. It started after I played with a Ouija board at 13 years old. I won't go into detail.
Attending the Charismatic Pentecostal Church did not bring relief. Which was why I sought out Jesus Christ in the first place.
Since Baptism, I sleep peacefully knowing my Guardian Angel watches over me.
Sorry for the long story. When you said "Charismatic" it made me realize how far my family has come.
Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have Mercy on me a sinner ☦️🙏
So I totally agree. I don't mind that part of Divine Liturgy is in Romanian.
I've been told "All Orthodox Christian Churches have the same Liturgy, the same Communion, the same Gospel, the same Apostolic succession, the same Creed".
"The only difference is the food you eat afterwards". 😊
Whether it's Slavic, Greek, Ethiopian, Ukrainian, Russian, Serbian, Armenian, Belarusian, Romanian.
Eastern Orthodoxy came to Western Canada in the 1700s. Started from Alaska, where a new language was created with the Inuit indigenous communities for worship.
Everywhere Orthodoxy goes, it mixes with the culture. It's only ethnic because of how immigrants came and settled in North America (it kept their heritage and Orthodox Christian Faith together). Now there is the OCA Orthodox Church of America. It is all English.
Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have Mercy on me a sinner ☦️🙏
We were bound by superior western culture so now we are super bound to inferior eastern culture. Lmao we ain’t losing the best
I am a middle aged man (51). Raised charismatic in the 80s (a billy graham sinners prayer convert in 84). Lived like hell in my 20s & 30s, came back to the faith at 41. A theological journey led me to calvinism up until a year and a half ago. Was never settled spiritually speaking. Out of the blue orthodoxy was presented to me (i had very little knoweldge of it prior). I went on a journey with it theologically and historically and finally step into a parish. Have not left and now a catechumen. I have found my home...finally. Glory to God 🙏
Similar journey here (per Calvinism) we are being baptized and Chrismated next week into the Greek Orthodox church. The fullness of Christ found in the liturgy and the church is something outsiders can not understand. The church is the Body of Christ. And in His church you will find the fullness of Him!
Protestants who thinks the scriptures are the only authority have the form of godliness and yet reject it's power. Please protestant humbly read 2 Timothy and consider history, the ecumenical councils and God's promise to have His church set on the Apostles and that the gates of hell would not succeed against it and pray to the Lord He will guide you to the church He set up 2000 years ago. Protestantism has no connection to the ancient church. You do not believe what the original church believed. Your outside of the faith. We pray daily for y'all to return to the faith once handed down.
Glory to our Holy triune God! In the name of Jesus may the Spirit of God who proceeds from the Father guide you to Himself and His house of worship.
God to God ❤
@@naturesorder7106My brother attends a Charismatic Pentecostal Church. Everything evolves around the Pastor. There is no organization. Randomly he'll feel the Holy Spirit so the service is just praying together by laying hands and "speaking in tongues".
He prayed for my Husbands back (6 surgeries from spondylolisthesis), beside me, and he went from English to nonsense language and it repulsed my Husband.
In his words "it turned me off, it felt fake".
Not to mention the dancing, jumping around, shouting in tongues.
They play the same few Protestant songs about the Holy Spirit. On a big screen in the dark.
I'm thankful my brother invited us but my 5 year old at the time had to wear headphones because of the music and we were starting to think he had sensory problems/autism because he'd have such a bad reaction.
After discovering Orthodoxy, I spent a year reading and watching documentaries about Early Church Fathers, learned the Creed and went to my first Divine Liturgy. I convinced my Husband to come but he was very apprehensive at first so me and my son went.
We were recently received into the Romanian Orthodox Christian Church of North America. As a family. My Husband likes to attend and nobody expects him to stand all the time. We have pews and everyone goes between standing and sitting. We sit for the Gospel.
Now (I wish I could share a video) but my son who is now 8, read in front of the Church twice, and Father said he's a good reader and can spend many years reading in the Church.
The difference is night and day. I suffered from severe sleep paralysis and paranormal activity involving the same "entity" for many years. It started after I played with a Ouija board at 13 years old. I won't go into detail.
Attending the Charismatic Pentecostal Church did not bring relief. Which was why I sought out Jesus Christ in the first place.
Since Baptism, I sleep peacefully knowing my Guardian Angel watches over me.
Sorry for the long story. When you said "Charismatic" it made me realize how far my family has come.
Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have Mercy on me a sinner ☦️🙏
Calvinism is poison…I drank for 20 + years
I had serious intellectual anxiety about theology so I asked the Lord to give me wisdom and he lead me to Orthodoxy.
Welcome home, brother :^)
It wasn't Him.
Gory be to God
Granger, you claim that you have the Spirit? That's quite bold claim.
@@c.m.granger6870 how do you know?
When the pastor opens sermons with clips from Disney movies, I also understand leaving…
This is another thing that was not happening when I was a Protestant, but I had classmates in college that now spend their time trying to work clips of the latest movies into their sermons. When I was in the Church of the Nazarene, we weren't even supposed to go to secular movies, much less work them into sermons. This certainly does not contribute to theological seriousness or spiritual growth.
I didn't even know that was a thing. Using an example from a popular film to illustrate a point and help the congregation remember the point better is entirely legitimate (in the same way Paul occasionally used pagan poems in his sermons in Acts). But you don't need to show a clip from it in order to do that.
@stephengray1344 an example that come to mind was showing a clip from Heath Ledger's Joker...talking about how he became consumed with that character and died as a result, and then saying we need to be like Christ and be consumed by Him. That's a stretch for an excuse to show a movie clip if ever there was one.
@@fr.johnwhiteford6194 showing movie clips and other such things ruins the whole vibe.
@@fr.johnwhiteford6194Some goofy Millennials leading churches. They would work The Dark Knight into the sermon. It was a big cultural movie.
Orthodox for 16 years. I agree with almost everything Dr. Ortlund says here.
Becoming Orthodox is not a simple denomination switch, it is a major decision. If you know someone that's becoming Orthodox, you should pray for them - not that they change but that they find and follow Christ.
Protestants would do well to go back to their roots and stay connected to the Church of history.
Trust in Jesus is primary. When I was an Orthodox catechumen, my priest gave salient advice. Don't become Orthodox because you like the tradition, do it because you find Christ more clearly.
I've seen many young men come to Orthodoxy and lose all faith because they come for "counter-culture" or "unchanging-ness". But Orthodoxy is very much infused with culture and is not immune to change - thr Church is a living organism and not an archeological site.
Whether you become Orthodox or dive deeper into your Protestant roots or go the Papal path, if you're not seeking Christ, it's fruitless and will not endure to the end.
I mostly agree (especially with your last paragraph), but would argue that Ortlund is mostly wrong about "Protestantism" as a whole, and gives far too much credit to it in the sense of it having historical roots that can address these problems. This too conveniently dismisses the reality that Protestant "worship" is fundamentally flawed and inevitably leads to where it is currently located, which is a miasma of self-directed, self-appointed solo-scriptura experts.
I think Ortlund is mostly well-meaning, and seems to have a genuine spirit about things. But I don't think that going back to Protestant "roots" addresses the real problem, and will only delay the same outcome (but probably not by that much). He seems oblivious to some core problems inherent in Protestant thought that cannot be fixed with a desire to just preach _harder_ .
@@GregorydrobnyI agree with everything the OP said as a Protestant. Unfortunately you seem unaware of how to steelman the Protestant position and it comes off as how village atheists (aka new atheists like Dawkins) describe Christianity.
Keep diving into the debates historical Protestants had with Rome and Orthodoxy and you’ll see what I mean
One example would be regarding icon veneration not going to the golden age of church fathers or to the apostoles.
Another is the Marian dogma of Bodily assumption (which you maybe refer to as dormition)
Anyways, I tend to see orthodox with the same proud posture as yourself in the comment section and it rivals the vitriol I see from many village Catholics. Let’s do better.
You are A true church just not the ONE TRUE CHURCH
I agree with everything brother, you seem to acknowledge that seeking Jesus is the primary goal in all of this. Whether I become orthodox or Catholic or remain prot is meaningless without that. AMEN 🙏🏽
@@Gregorydrobnyyour last sentence makes me see you didn’t watch all the way to the end.
This kind of confidence usually comes from ignorance and a lack of desire to portray the other side accurately and fairly.
If you want peace of mind ur doing the right thing. If you want truth you have a ways to go
I completely agree. Sadly I have never run into an Orthodox clergyman or convert that doesn't make Orthodoxy a turn-off because they seem to be so defensive about their own position and that is reflected in their dialogue and behavior. I have never encountered an Orthodox person who displayed the love of Christ and a desire to win me over. Rather they spend more time telling non-Orthodox people of how wrong they are. I don't ever feel this is an invitation to join or even dialogue. I don't mind being shown I am wrong, but they seem to enjoy making that point more than inviting me to join them.
From Reformed to Orthodox inquirer pray for me
I have the calling to Christ and His Church in Orthodox
Go man go!
Pray for yourself and read the bible. What’s wrong with you people.
@@JoanneArc-or9sr Christ’s Holy Orthodox Church never needed any so-called, “reform.” And this is what is being realized on a very large scale, and will continue to increase exponentially.
@@JoanneArc-or9sr I do read my Bible to assume I don’t is to be in error since you don’t know me or my heart. And asking for people to pray for you is biblical Paul did it, that he would have boldness to proclaim the Gospel. We are commanded to pray for all peoples whether people in authority kings etc, so why wouldn’t I ask the body of Christ to pray for me as I seek guidance from Christ.
You’re not really making sense.
@@JoanneArc-or9srwhat’s wrong with you? So prideful you refuse to pray for someone?
As an atheist up until recently and now working on converting to Orthodoxey. The first thing that attracted me was when i heard a priest say that the church is a hospital for sin you come to church to get better and, when they talk about the saints thier like proof that the medicine of the the church and Jesus really works.
Second is as someone who grew up with a mother who definitely took her evangelical faith seriously-maybey it was just me and my mother- thier was no constant practice in her faith. I think the asetic practice of fasting and daily prayer rules really help remind me what im trying to do its something I commit to live out to the best of my ability.
Welcome home brother…
My wife and I converted to EO in Australia 25 years ago this coming Easter and our four adult children are all following Christ as are we. My mother was a devout evangelical too and was deeply committed to servanthood.
All the best in your walk
There is so much “medicine” within the Orthodox Church that I didnt have with Nondenominational Churches. Thank God for leading me to Orthodoxy.
I grew up a Protestant, and I found Orthodoxy and tried to prove it wrong. Needless to say, I’m now Orthodox.
The main reasons are accountability. Our world today is filled with temptations and in the Protestant world, there is no consistent lifestyle of living accountable lives.
Orthodoxy has the sacrament of Confession with challenges and spiritual disciplines to help mature the believer. If you wince at the idea of this, it may mean that you have never been held accountable. I’ve grown more in my faith the last 3 years then in my 27 years previously as a Protestant.
Orthodoxy is a way of life, it is not just a set of doctrines. Protestantism doesn’t have this, and like shifting winds, the foundations/doctrines/practices change within a generation.
My advice for Protestants who look into Orthodoxy: realize that Orthodoxy is not just intellectual. It is far more experiential and internet debates only go so far. So, come and see! Attend a Divine Liturgy and bring your questions and concerns to a priest
God bless ☦️
Back in the 1960s/70s Jesus Movement, a bunch of young hardcore Protestant Jesus people converted (at the same time) to EO. I heard about this years ago and wondered why they made such a leap from the freedom of being a Born Again Christian to the old school structure of Orthodoxy. Experiences like yours help me understand it better.
It's Roman Catholicism without a Pope.
@@c.m.granger6870no, it's not. There are lots of differences
@@c.m.granger6870 and why do you believe this?
@@ehuslugi Such as?
“Leaving traditional churches for Orthodox Church” has got to be the dumbest title to any article I have ever read.
100%
39. I was pentecostal for 23 years. I cannot abide cognitive dissonance. When all the protestant contradictions became too much I would try to take things from other Christian traditions to make things make sense and time and time again it was Orthodoxy that had the most consistent and well integrated answers. Me, my wife, and our children were accepted into the Church recently. Participating in the life of the Church has catapulted my spiritual life and humbled me deeply.
My son converted to Orthodox recently. He is happier & fulfilled and really love Jesus and obey God. I visited his church couple of times. It’s a way of life and desire connecting to God imo.
There is a holiness that is heavenly in the Othodox church. I'm Protestant.
I dont think anyone is denying that...
Glory to God!
@@eugenenunn4900 by not being in it, denies this..
@@eugenenunn4900 I don't think he's trying to make any point, but just mentioning a neat fact going on for him
I’m that 30 year female Orthodox Convert from 46 years as a happy evangelical. We women are not marginalized in the Orthodox Church! In fact, the wealth of female Saints that have heroic lives to encourage women (and men) is something that was frankly missing in evangelical culture. We are theologians, chanters, parish council leaders and so on. Men do have to look at Mary and say “Orthodoxy forces me to to treat women with respect because of her”
(That’s the aim)
There’s respect for the discipline of celibacy and no sex before marriage.
Sadly, the “queen of heaven” title that the Orthodox Church has given to Mary is a title that God did not give her.
Ugh how do you know , plus if you understand the Old Testament you would understand the title not everything Jesus did is written down in the Bible
Who said anything about women being marginalized? How did that even come into the discussion?
@@Hope-d8y It's on the OT. If you read through the line of kings in Kings/Chronicles, the kings of Judah are listed as are their mothers, but the kings of Israel (northern kingdom) are not listed in this fashion. "So and so was king and his mother was so and so", NOT his wife/wives. The rightful King of Judah has a mother, and if you follow the trend in the Scriptures that God Himself inspired, the question one would ask after knowing that Christ is King is who is His mother?, just like in the line of Judah from which He comes.
2 Kings 8:25,26
In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab, king of Israel, Ahaziah the son of Jehoram, king of Judah, began to reign. Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Athaliah; she was a granddaughter of Omri king of Israel.
2 Kings 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
2 Kings 24:18
Zedekiah was twenty-one years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hamutal the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.
These are just a few examples, you can look thru the OT books of Kings/Chronicles to find many many more.
In 2 Chronicles 15:16, we can see that the mother of the king was even called the "queen mother":
Even Maacah, his mother, King Asa removed from being queen mother because she had made a detestable image for Asherah. Asa cut down her image, crushed it, and burned it at the brook Kidron.
So Mary, being Christ's mother, is the queen of heaven and is rightly called the Queen Mother.
@@Hope-d8y The queen-mother!
One point that no one seems to be making - and this might be the MOST important point: Men don’t respect Protestant pastors. They don’t walk with the humility and holiness of the Orthodox priests. They don’t live the ascetical life of fasting and sacrifice like Orthodox priests. They rarely personally see to the shepherding of their flock with the vested interest of an Orthodox priest.
40+ years in evangelicalism and I never found a single pastor I “looked up” to or wanted to imitate.
The Orthodox priests LIVE the life of humility and sacrifice, and it’s inspiring to men like me.
Maybe it’s all a show. But so far it checks out.
and to add, most of the orthodox priests, especially in smaller parishes, are quite poor, and live off donations and off of donations alone are able to erect a church at all. Some priests even have to work multiple jobs to keep food on their own table. They really live a life of sacrifice.
I wish I could add more likes to this one. Absolutely spot on. My wife and I were walking out of our church after discussing our Chrismation with our priest and I pointed to his car in the parking lot and said, "Look, it's a Kia -- not a Mercedes, or a Cadillac, or some high dollar name-brand vehicle that cost as much as our house..." After years of being protestant, seeing all the tight skinny jeans, ridiculous watches and shoes, and men dressed like high-schoolers with too much money, it became hard to take seriously. As a result, I began to question the church as a whole (never doubting God's existence) and after a lot of research and praying to find the truth, it led to Orthodoxy.
It was refreshing for me to discover that the priest of our parish was shocked when, at a community dinner of pastors in our area, he asked some of them how they attend to their congregation when they are in need or sick, only to get the response that they had staff for those things. Orthodoxy is a completely different way of Christian living.
There might be a point to this. I never saw protestant pastors being disrespected but I went to a Baptist Bible class a couple of times (not all that interesting, having studied theology myself but I wanted some people to talk to about the Bible) - there was a lot of disrespect for the young pastor who had just came to the community. Especially from the other men. It was so shameful to watch that I never went back there. Besides, their services are like a 1hr rock concert with a little sermon sprinkled in between.
I couldn't agree more. In many Evangelical settings, the pastors are treated like celebrities and are very flash/showy. It all becomes about who they are as a famous name, with people only wanting to attend services when they are there. Also the ministers having the most lavish car/house/aeroplane, with their name and photo branded everywhere. Some even have bodyguards. I can't take them seriously. The contrast with Orthodox priests is astonishing
I think this varies across Evangelicalism. As a British Evangelical, I've come across far more pastors (or equivalent) in real life who I look up to and want to imitate than I have ones I don't. Plenty of them live lives of humility and sacrifice and live to build up the members of their church. There isn't quite so much asceticism, but asceticism isn't an inherent good. The Pharisees, for example, were far more prone to asceticism than the Apostles.
I'm 50 now. I converted to Orthodoxy at age 40 after approximately 30 years of Protestantism through 8 different denominations. Constantly searching, searching, searching. It's been such a relief to finally find my "home" and yet I am treading in a deep ocean of Christianity. I'm never bored, I'm constantly learning, and often overwhelmed I'll never be able to really, truly capture fully living Orthodox. It is the happiest, most loved, most challenged walk with God I've ever had.
I completely agree that Gen Z has a real wariness toward being pandered to! We REALLY DON'T want football analogies from the pulpit, emojis in the bulletin, corny nothing-lyrics from worship music, cute acronyms, watered-down summaries of truth, and carefully hyper-simplified interpretations of verses.
The very endeavor to be "seeker-sensitive" has itself repelled seekers.
We don't want Christianity for kids. We don't want brand-safe, scrubbed-out Christianity. Give us everything or nothing at all!
Ok, rant over. This video clearly resonated with me! I'm so used to being pandered and advertised to, that it makes me sad to see churches trying the same thing with Christ.
Also, I'm a Baptist, and an evangelical protestant. I agree with the doctrine behind most of the messages I'm criticizing! The truth of Jesus Christ is so rich and real that it deserves more honor than we tend to give it.
Exactly. Couldn’t have said it better.
@@Thatoneguy-pu8ty Thanks man. I want to be careful that I'm not murmuring against the churches I love though (many of which do these things). I am grateful to God for how those churches have caused me to grow, and I am content in Christ though I'm a flawed man who attends flawed churches!
It's out of a passion for truly communicating the honor of God that I say all this. I mean to press on, not to just whine about the situation!
yea the weakness of many modern churches is a big fault, but I disagree with those bad theology rock n roll churches just as much as I disagree with orthodox and catholic. Just because some protestant churches are way off base doesnt mean orthodox is correct either.
Agreed. I’m gen Z and became a Christian about a year ago. I grew up in a non-denominational church but the words never pierced my heart. For the past two months I’ve begun attending a Baptist church and have been drawn towards the intimacy of the smaller church setting and the hymns. I’ve been craving deeper theology and church history that is not present in most non-denominational churches. I think it’s unfortunate that many have had experiences similar to ours, and will convert to Catholicism/Orthodoxy without realizing non-denominational churches aren’t representative of Protestantism broadly speaking.
Hot take: you should become EO because you think that the claims of EO are true (this is the only reason you should become anything!). Becoming EO because you think it's more "stable" or "masculine" or whatever means that you don't really care about EO, you care about "stability" or "masculinity" or whatever.
I agree. -- A recent convert.
exactly, "what should be do?" - embrace orthodoxy :)
@@georgwilliamfriedrichhegel5744 It’s all those things.
correct
Even from Catholic stand point I agree and its true you should be doing anything in general for the right reasons
My perception of change in the contemporary Protestantism of the time I converted 34 years ago, but I do remember what Evangelical Protestantism was like when I left it, and it bears little resemblance with what you see today. Protestant worship has almost completely changed, but so has the preaching. Towards the end of her life, my mother could not find a Church in the denomination she raised me and my brothers, that was anything like what she had known. She ended up going to the old folks service at a Methodist Church, which was kind of similar. But if you have a religion that is constantly reinventing itself, and becomes something completely different within the lifetime of one person, you're doing something wrong.
Its a bunch of BASED and RACIST LARPers "father"
I agree either way you lived experience. I grew up in the Presbyterian church and it’s completely different from my childhood.
It is not fair to point to the phenomenon happening only over the past 30-40 years and judge the whole traditions to be ever-changing. Many of the historic confessional standards are still kept in many reformational churches, especially outside America.
Change and splits often happen throughout the church history. We definitely won't judge Christianity as a whole just because there were turmoils across different churches during the Chalcedonian vs. Non-chalcedonians split, or just because there is a schism between the True/Genuine Orthodoxy vs. World Orthodoxy vs. Old Believers.
@Presbapterian
I caught the frenzy of the tail end of the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement.
I’ve seen a lot of noise online from heavy-set men in their mid-to late-thirties grappling with the massive growth in American Orthodoxy among young men. It is a punch in the gut to them! These are the faithful pastors that should be keeping young protestants in the pews!
Well, as someone who was part of the YRR movement; I can safely say that while there may be a similarity in impetus among the young, single male crowd that is flocking to Holy Orthodoxy (after all, they are young men, too)-once they get there, I can tell you that the “rubber hits the road” in an entirely different way.
Here’s a few differences:
1. Folks who flourished under YRR did so by following their peers; or those in most cases just a few years older than themselves. This was the time when all the young guys in the Baptist churches became Calvinists-not much else changed than the books they read and maybe a preference of wine over grape juice.
2. Young men that drank YRR to its dregs ended up as minority constituents in small, traditionally-minded Reformed denominations. Others that floated on top of the YRR wave and stayed Protestants usually remained as baptists or joined a new 1689-oriented church plant. The inherent nature of Protestant ecclesiology and the social-religious landscape of America ensured that YRR lost steam and fizzled out.
3. Plenty of YRR folks actually converted to Papism-a sore spot for many Reformed folks who participated! It was a real demoralizer and catalyst for plateau in the movement.
These points, when compared to the flow of young men into Holy Orthodoxy, show substantial differences:
1. While a peer often exposes young men to orthodoxy, once they actually check out a parish, they find there is no way that they can “follow” their peers into the Church. Our method of catechesis and reception simply doesn’t allow that kind of dynamic to endure through the inquiry stage. When you “sign up” for Holy Orthodoxy, you’re made to understand that you are giving up all your heretical ideations and Protestant ethos-and in return, you are born again through baptism in the Orthodox Church. The scandal of ecclesial exclusivity must take root in the inquirer's heart before he gains entry into the Church. Until then, he is on the outside looking into the life of the Church. This is MUCH different than the mere “intellectual ascent” which barred folks from the YRR movement.
2. The Orthodox Church is not a breeding ground for questions about the faith, nor about theological issues that divide Protestants into thousands of theologically scrupulous camps. When people enter the Church; they stay because it is the spiritual path to Eternal Life-not a place for theological gesticulation. The people that do leave after joining generally follow a path of two sorts
1) casual enjoyment of pet sins left unconfessed, which leads to spiritual lethargy.
2) entertainment of heretical notions after baptism. In both these ways, the YRR movement was much easier to leave than it is to leave the Orthodox Church; if you leave the Orthodox Church after being admitted to our ranks, you are essentially bidding on your own damnation-much different than the YRR church jumping maneuvers that so many did!
3. The pull into Holy Orthodoxy is not the same as that of the YRR movement. YRR folks were looking to better understand the classic Protestant dogmas that their bland evangelical theology had eschewed in order to foster unity among Protestants. In this, they thought they would find the longing of their hearts for true knowledge of God. What they got instead were dry theological tomes and elentic proofs with a side of 19th-century racism. On the other hand, the draw into Holy Orthodoxy is about ontological transformation, which can only come about by mystical participation-the set of concerns couldn’t be more different.
Underrated comment.
After being atheist for the first 30 years of my life and finally understanding God is real, the obvious question was which church still teaches what it taught 2000 years ago, because God's teaching would be perfect and thus unchanging. After that it was a historical question and the obvious answer was the Orthodox Church. The rest followed from that.
I think serious involvement in Orthodox spirituality reveals just how far our hearts are from God. We are slaves to the passions (and by them the demons) and Christ wants to deliver us from this slavery so that we might become holy as He is holy. My 30 years in the Protestant world didn’t get me very far and only prevented me from realizing just how sin was at work in me. It really just developed a crust of delusion that I was saved and all was good. I knew a lot of Bible and Truth but didn’t have the tools to integrate it as I do now. The spiritual life of the Orthodox Church brings you deeper and therefore higher, towards the holy Trinity. Read the lives of the saints to see what we can become by His grace. You can only really find that in the ancient Church.
Well said
It is interesting to me that the solution to the reformation is further reformation 🤔
@@untoagesThe question is, which reformation do we agree to, and according to who?
@@untoages American evangelicalism is not the product of the reformation.
There was no Calvary chapel in 1530
@@Thatoneguy-pu8ty But the evangelicals were responding to something, were they not? There’s historical context to all of these movements.
@@Thatoneguy-pu8tyBut surely you don't mean that if the Reformation had never happened, we still would have ended up with today's American evangelicalism, do you?
@@Thatoneguy-pu8ty I think it actually is. A system built on continual reformation will inevitably lead somewhere. Having no rootedness and adhering to semper reformada means that there's always a reaction against the next thing that is deemed "unscriptural" (but according to who?). Look at the anabaptist movement, as an early example.
I want stability most for my young children. I want to raise them in a church that will last long after I am dead. As a current LCMS Lutheran this is one of the biggest things I struggle with as I am almost certain that most of these denominations will be GONE by the time my grandkids are adults. This is what draws me to Orthodoxy honestly.
Well, Orthodoxy has survived Communism, and severe Islamic pressure. It is definitely is more resilient than anything else. Traditional protestantism couldn’t even survive freedom.
@@chrisj123165 I converted from LCMS to Holy Orthodoxy 5 years ago. My young children are being raised in the Church. When I am gone the Church will be there.
Literally the best thing I EVER did, glory to God.
I feel the same. We just started attending an LCMS church and I love it so much, but I look around and we are one of two families with young children. Everyone else is north of 60. That’s another reason why I am drawn to Catholicism.
Don’t choose church because of that brother, even though I understand the sentiment. If the confessional Lutheran church has a theology you agree with, stay there and be the younger Christian that will enforce it!
For my children, I don’t want their faith to be in an institution here on earth, but in the Holy Word of God and in Christ crucified. I understand the desire to have them belong to an earthly institution that will last after you’re gone, but there’s no guarantee that the EO church won’t change, as they already demonstratively have (e.g. gone from anathematizing those outside of the EO church to saying they don’t know where the church ends).
Just look at the RC and how it’s changed. It’s existed in name for thousands of years but it’s changed a ton.
The only thing that will NEVER change is God’s Holy Word and the truth that it holds. I would rather teach my children to read, understand it, and faithfully follow Christ. That way they can find a body of faithful believers wherever they are and they don’t have to rely on flawed human institutions that can err.
No offense intended to anyone who claims the name of Christ. If you read this, God bless you ✝️
“When I visited an Orthodox Church, it was only in order to view another ‘tradition’. However, when I entered an Orthodox Church for the first time (in San Francisco) something happened to me that I had not experienced in any Buddhist or other Eastern temple; something in my heart said this was ‘home’, that all my search was over.” - St. Seraphim of Platina
This was also my reaction when I attended Divine Liturgy for the first time. I'm so glad I found 'home'.
Lord have mercy ☦️
Glory to God!!
Dear Calvin,
As a Protestant transitioning into the Orthodox Church, I feel somewhat misrepresented. My decision is based on the following reasons:
1. Earnestly praying for God to guide me into His truths,
2. Believing that Christ has faithfully led His Church throughout history, which is not represented by evangelicalism, and
3. A desire for pure worship and holiness.
The main reasons I am leaving evangelicalism is the prevalent subjectivism resulting from sola scriptura and the unbiblical nature of sola fide.
May the Lord bless you, Calvin.
I am also a Protestant transitioning for the same reasons. May the Lord bless you!
Converted to the Catholic Church for the same reasons. I just happen think the papacy is historically and ecclesiologically closer to the truth because Jesus established one man as the Royal Steward (cf Mt 16:19, Is 22:20-22), and only one man was given the symbolic keys of that perpetual office. FWIW, I think that in time you will find that Catholics are far more accepting of the EO than they are of Catholics. I call it "Little Brother Syndrome". Best wishes.
Really hacks me off when I hear "ministers" break Nine Commandment. This often done by accusing brethren of taking easy way out, looking for sensuousness, believing we can "earn our way into heaven" or whatever crud the speaker wants to put in our mouths or accuse us of.
@randycarson9812 The keys were given to all of the apostles.
Read your own papal documents. Lanteran IV article I admission of faith. The last paragraph conceeds the EO postition.
"Little brother syndrome." You dont see this as condescending?
@@grizzly_8917 Regarding the paragraph from the Lateran Council, while the passage acknowledges that the keys were given to the Church, it does not contradict the unique role of Peter as the head of the apostles. Instead, it aligns with the broader Catholic teaching that:
1. The Authority of the Keys: Jesus explicitly gives the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to Peter in Matthew 16:18-19, signifying a special primacy and authority. This does not mean the other apostles lack authority but that Peter holds a unique and preeminent role among them.
2. Shared Authority with the Apostles: In Matthew 18:18, Jesus grants all the apostles the power to bind and loose, showing that they share in the Church's teaching and governing authority. This is understood in Catholic teaching as the collegiality of the apostles under Peter's leadership.
Here's a useful analogy:
The US Senate Majority Leader holds a prominent leadership role among senators, guiding legislative priorities and coordinating the Senate's agenda. Similarly, Peter, chosen by Jesus to be the chief steward of the kingdom of heaven (cf. Mt 16:19, Is 22:20-22), held a central leadership position among the apostles.
While all US senators share in the legislative process and decision-making, the Majority Leader is responsible for ensuring cohesion and direction within the Senate. Likewise, all the apostles exercised authority in governing the early Christian community, but they did so under Peter's leadership.
3. Lateran IV and Papal Primacy: While the Fourth Lateran Council acknowledges that the authority of the keys is exercised in communion with the whole Church, it does not deny Peter's unique role as the foundation of unity. In fact, the council’s proceedings strongly affirm the pope’s supreme authority as the successor of Peter.
The Catholic Church reconciles these points through the concept of subsidiary authority: while the entire Church participates in Christ’s authority, the pope holds a distinct, singular office as the visible head of the Church (the Royal Steward), entrusted by Christ to govern and shepherd the faithful.
As for my comment being condescending, yes, but does that prevent it from being accurate?
Not only young men but all kinds of people from different walks of life are coming. No matter how many times the Protestant Church reforms itself, it will never be able to replicate the stability and rootedness discussed in this video about Holy Orthodoxy. The Truth does not need continual reform. This alone should make anyone here a careful student of Orthodox Christianity's 2,000-year-old legacy. ☦
❤☦️❤
Oh dear... Where to begin with this assertion?
This reads like someone is holding a g’n to your head as you type
@@BM-si2eilol you didn't even start
@UniteAgainstEvil I could just link to any of Gavin's episodes on EO, but you're here with me, just click on recent episodes. He raises every issue I had, and some I didn't even realize I had.
26yo orthodox male convert here. When I converted to Christianity it first was through a Presbyterian church. I had the pastor there straight face tell me that premarital sex and LGBT isn't a sin and i was reading the bible and hearing all these things that i couldn't reconcile with scripture which led me to question "well if we are not following the bible and aren't following church tradition then what are we even doing here?" So i decided to investigate church history and the church fathers and doctrines regarding the saints, the eucharist, Mary, scripture's roll in church, and all of it was just rock solid and ancient. I realized that literally %75 of church history was missing from my protestantism which basically taught that everything before Martin Luther was heretical and irrelevant (on what grounds do LGBT affirming pastors have the right to call anyone heretics anyway???) . I was resolved to find the ancient church of the earliest centuries and that is orthodoxy. The great catch 22 of modern protestantism is craving more traditional worship yet rejecting all the teachings of the traditional church. In orthodoxy there is a transcendent beauty and depth of truth that simply cannot be matched. The saints, the fathers, monastics, incense, holy oil, fasting, the prayers, it is a depth of faith that demands %100 of you and it's wonderful. It doesn't pander to me it asks more of me. It asks more than anyone else ever has and it's wonderful. My faith is powerful and deep on a level I could not have ever imagined.
"My faith is powerful and deep" is such a weird thing for a Christian to say. It's not wrong to just admit that you think the Orthodox church is powerful and based.
Yes I agree!
Why Orthodox and not Catholic?
@@samuelotache9239 1. The papacy.
2. Numerous corruption and sexual abuse scandals at the highest levels.
3. Vatican II and further revisions and backsliding
4. The filioque
I promise you my good sir, as a Presbyterian myself I can assure you that pastor was neither a pastor nor a Presbyterian in anything other than name.
As a 60 year old woman converted from Protestantism to Orthodoxy for 4 years now just love, love every new step in my discovering of the Orthodox faith. It feels I’ve moved from milk to solid food
This was the best decision I’ve ever made in my entire life to really learn how to worship God the Holy Trinity (which was very confusing for me as a Protestant)
My relationship and Love for God just grow and grow something I’ve reached sort of a plafon in protestantism
There was definitely a lack of solid food ministry. The main preaching was just a lot of stories without rock solid teachings and practical traditions to help you grow as a Christain
Orthodoxy is more practical and teaches about a way of life
If you live king enough you will change again, you just crave novelty
@@tastybeetz1511no she craves the Church that Christ established and Glory to God that she found it. ☦️
I think the biggest problem with modern evangelical Protestant culture is the complete lack of theology and practice outside of attending church on Sunday and maybe a Bible Study on Wednesday.
It’s an inch deep, if that. The churches don’t explain the historical creeds, barely touch morality outside of sexuality, and lost any sense of an organized prayer life. The believer is often left with the sense of “what now”? I mean I believe the gospel, I want to follow that path, I want to please God, but how? Or what is it that we actually believe about Trinity, original sin, various moral principles, etc.
One reason that people are leaving for orthodox Christianity or Catholic Christianity is that this is literally the first place that very common Christian beliefs are explained. The first time anyone ever explains the Trinity, or Justification, Sanctification (which is very similar to Theosis), or very common high-churc( beliefs about Communion (Lutherans and Anglicans believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, though I don’t think it’s identical)
Spot on!
>The believer is often left with the sense of “what now”? I mean I believe the gospel, I want to follow that path, I want to please God, but how? Or what is it that we actually believe about Trinity, original sin, various moral principles, etc.
Which there is plenty of in the earlier Protestant writers, but not many read them.
@ I think we’ve stopped talking about it. It’s like a big push - understandably so - to get people to become believers, but then the rest isn’t talked about at all. People have a first grader’s Sunday school explanation of Christianity, with no depth at all, and it’s a bit unsatisfactory when that person tries to take that out into the world. It doesn’t work well because you still have real and important questions, and you have problems, and nobody else knows more than you do or has advice.
Then someone else comes along and has answers you never actually heard before and you’re likely to go for it without thinking it through simply because it’s the first place you heard it.
The problem with Gavin's criticism of EO is that he once again retreats back to sola scriptura, but what he means by that is scripture as understood by him and his sect.
Every doctrine of the church is based on scripture and tradition. He is not choosing between scripture and church tradition, he is simply choosing his own interpretation of scripture.
All the complaints about EO viewing his sect as heterodox is grandstanding when the same is applied back by himself to 2000 years of Christians who venerated holy objects as holy.
It would be nice is Gavin spent more time presenting the doctrinal differences with balance rather than making thinly disguised polemical videos designed to sway ignorant audiences.
For example, this video finishing with a discussion of gospel assurance was just more begging the question and avoiding the issue of interpretation.
brother aswer my question what did the early church believe because becuase for the first 200 years there was no catholics or orthodoxy and your calling us heretics when you also came from schism
@@SolangeNiyonyishu-m8x What I am saying is that Gavin should stick to actually going through the issues related with the truth about early church teaching and doctrine rather than his deliberately low information polemics.
The beliefs and practice of the early church (pre-Nicea) are well known and researched and we have the writings and archaeology to back this up.
Simple things like church hierarchy, baptismal regeneration, holy eucharist, chrismation, liturgical worship, trinitarian doctrine, infant baptism, old testament cannon, intercession of the saints etc are early church beliefs. They are taught everywhere the apostles evangelised. They are all defended with scripture and referred to in scriptural writings.
Gavin going back to his 'sola scriptura' reading because he doesn't like early church interpretation of scripture is just a way to avoid the issues.
For example his complaint about "no salvation outside the church" is silly when this is just a restatement of Jesus' and the apostles teaching. For example, "I am the way, truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except though him." combined with the apostles Paul's words that the church is the body of Christ. Instead of acknowledging that these ideas absolutely arise from scripture and tradition, he uses emotional appeal to imply that this is 'not nice'.
Stop bearing false witness, you can't find any early Christians venerating icons or saints in the first 3-4 centuries, it's an accretion adopted from pagan traditions
@@ryanscaggs1674 me when I lie, false witness is a sin, my guy.. nothing against you, but be better and act smarter, you got it in you, just look for it....
@@SolangeNiyonyishu-m8x This is demonstrably false.
The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
_“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])_
Notice that Ignatius does not take pains to introduce the term "Catholic Church"; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century.
I love that scripture!
“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”
I’m so grateful for your ministry Gavin. As a young man from a Protestant background, you’ve helped me find a great peace and comfort in the words of Jesus.
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.“
God bless you!
So true. There is so much even within various Christian traditions that has distracted me from God's word and the redemption of the Gospel.
“If you were to go to a Presbyterian church 200 years ago you would find this.” Agreed, but I think that’s part of the struggle - we can’t! I’m all for retrieving historic Protestant worship, but I think we have to recognize this is not going to be easy. The mainline churches have gone far from this, and Evangelical churches will feel they’ve grown because they’ve been seeker-sensitive. While I think many young people want rootedness and tradition, I think many will choose the (seemingly) much easier option of joining traditions where this is ready-made versus trying to fight the uphill battle. Doesn’t mean it’s not a fight worth fighting, I’m just a bit pessimistic at the moment. Hope I’m wrong though!
In a Presbyterian place 200 years ago, women who scolded their husbands wore a scould's muzzle if they refused to decease and kept pushing Eve's Curse to be over Men
Hi. I watch you , too❤. So, what is historical Protestantism?
Which all begs the question: why did "historic" Protestant worship degrade into what we see today?
@@jimjatras1448 There's plenty of nonsense in Catholic Education and Churches today too. Mary Daly at BC is an infamous feminist; Jesuit Colleges have fired Professors merely for sharing Church teachings.
It saddens me to know that there are so few examples of liturgically robust mainline churches that are theologically sound these days. I’ve been fortunate enough to have worshipped in a few of these over the years and they are like finding a polished gem in a pile of rubble.
Around the 9:30 mark you're totally right. It exhausted me that all online Christian discourse is full of Catholics and Orthodox, and never did I see anyone seriously defending Protestantism. And it's unfortunate because Protestantism gets heavily misrepresented. It was a breath of fresh air to find your channel.
Yup, Also it can be a good thing, once people learn good etiquette for laying out your thoughts and letting people say their piece.
It's because there is no serious defense of Protestantism.
Because protestantism doesn't exist anymore. You're either apart of a magisterial denomination (Roman, Eastern, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian) or you're just an evangelical/baptist
Oh, never heard of James White?
@@ryanscaggs1674 Yeah similar to Nazi (Hitler)or fascist(Mussolini) ideology not existing, people like to use Protestant much in the same way in theological circles. Getting more granular can help, but that takes a lot of work.
There still is an overall group of Christians you can class as such so the term does have more usefulness.
I'm a confessional lutheran and I love liturgical worship.
Same!
If I wasn’t happily at home in my traditional Anglican parish, I’d likely be confessional Lutheran myself 👍🏻
How many Lutherans does it take to change a lightbulb? …….”Change????!!!!”
I was confirmed in May! ✝ LCMS
@@DRNewcomb "What was wrong with the old one?!?"
Can I just ask, as someone being drawn to Orthodoxy from a Reformed Baptist direction:
How can Protestantism be reformed? One church can be reformed, but there is no cohesion. We are not even on the same page within protestantism. It is depressing.
Meanwhile everything we desire is right over there in Orthodoxy. I have been wrestling, and I have watched many of your videos and others. My theological hesitations are rather disappearing before the beauty, stability and truth of Orthodoxy. I have been reading the early church fathers. Why do they disagree with my reformed sensibilities and positions? Why do they sound more like EO?
Honestly, the Orthodox Church feels like it is complete and full, and it has something we do not. I don't know if I can go back.
It's just not the same. Why is the idea to reform protestantism to become like Orthodoxy? People can try to reform all of this mess, but the wheel is already invented.
The problems you have raised feel like they have been resolved for me. I haven't arrived at your view on these issues, and I think it's different than you suppose.
Have you visited a good Orthodox Church before?
I love that the comments to this video are filled with joyful testimonies from people who have become Orthodox and gotten to know Christ more deeply and fully than ever before.
Not the intention of the video, obviously, but it's beautiful to see.
I'm a girl! I am also so sad modern American Christians have rejected so much tradition. It's not bad, and I desperately crave things like lighting candles, hearing hymns/angelic choirs, pretty interior, etc. I also crave to learn more. I'm having to pursue church history, theology etc on my own and I wish more churches would be open to hosting stuff like that.
Masculine leadership as well, I do feel strongly about feminism/egalitarianism regarding church government lately.. Men are desperately needed!
Thanks for covering it Gavin. I am sad by the lack of coverage on this.
You said it beautifully...men are desperately needed. And the only church where men are not being feminised is the orthodox church
By all means, You can look to the past for inspiration, but don't forget that God is the God of today and His Word is living and active. Seek His presence daily, one on one. Learn to hear His voice and the leading of His Spirit. Your hunger for tradition may just a hunger for His living reality in your life.
Very similar for me. Protestantism has abandoned its distinctive cloak of our savior. I too have to pursue real teaching online due to its absence in church.
Try out Lutheranism, we still light candles (we are going to start this month with our advent ceremonies), we still use hymns, still chant, and our pastors still wear robes. Go to an LCMS, ELS, or WELS church. Don't got to ELCA, they are heretical.
Consider visiting a Divine Service at a Confessional Lutheran Church ✝
16:53 EO is not concerned with meeting desires…it’s the opposite. It is concerned with transforming the person and overcoming the passions. The person can't conform to a communion that is ever changing.
I get that what I think what he means is that EO does meet desires that should have been also met in protestantism but because of the seeker sensitive movement that has been made exclusive to EO and Catholicism to a lesser degree.
Well said amierberg
No one at my local Orthodox church has ever asked what my needs are. I think they assume that my needs are Holy God, Holy Mighty, and Holy Immortal.
@@kathleenhale7602 exactly!
I went to a Nondenominational Church and loved it. I always made arguments against the Orthodox Christian theology…until I studied Early Church history, and knew right then that I could not stay at a ND church. Thank God my heart found its resting place and I am Orthodox Christian.
3 things that completely changed my life
1. I stopped thinking about the past💀
2. l read book : Your Life Your Game by Keezano📕
3. I started believing in God.
just bought, thanks
Hi Gavin, I’m Catholic and wanted to know why Evangelicals don’t just adopt the Anglican book of Common prayer? It seems like a traditional Protestant practice that could benefit a lot of people. And it is very beautiful. I saw someone else ask this as well in the comments
Probably because they might not know about it honestly. I come from a non-denominational background and for various reasons now attend an Anglican church since last year. Never knew about the book of common prayer until I attended. Wonderful book and I think a lot of Evangelical/Non-denominationals would agree with at least most of the articles of faith
I’m Catholic my sister is non denominational she said they don’t want old church practices that is why they left the old churches
unfortunately a lot of protestants do not see the value in liturgical prayers or understand their purpose and root in Scripture. It would be wonderful if they did though. I am part of the Anglican church and the book of common prayer is one of my biggest reasons for that.
@@trinitywilliams4520 one thing I like about Gavin is he does value traditional things l
@@annb9029 I will pray for her God Bless you
The calvinist monoenergist feels a fatherly burden to protect young men from rejecting monoenergism..... amazing! Lord have mercy. Open this man's heart and eyes.
Great video! I think another reason for the recent trend towards Eastern Orthodoxy is related to new atheism. In our cultural moment thinkers like Richard Dawkins have trained us to be skeptical of any and all rational claims. Orthodoxy has always been perceived as less rationalistic and more mysterious / experience focused than the western churches. Perhaps it’s partly for this same reason Pentecostalism is the fastest growing denomination. It seems to me that western people are less convinced by rational arguments these days, but find the spiritual experience of worship more convincing. Just some thoughts. God bless you Gavin!
I think this is very insightful. Of course we are speculating, but it makes sense with the post-truth culture we live in.
Everyone likes to suppose that if people are leaving their tradition, it's because folks are getting dumber, but if people are joining their tradition, it's because people are wising up. Very often it has more to do with larger cultural factors than a sudden burst of light.
Huh. Never saw it from this angle. Thats very interesting
I've recently started attending an EO church largely due to reading church history and being convinced through arguments. Most of the church members who were former protestants also state the same reason. I'm not so sure I would just point to people joining because they want to pursue a less rational experience.
Yeah. By the way this isn’t an argument against Eastern Orthodox tradition. It’s just an observation. Looks as though culturally we’re pendulum-swinging towards beauty (more clearly transcendent to our new atheist minds) as opposed to truth claims (viewed with suspicion) in the west.
I'm from India, and the situation here is quite different. Many believers from Orthodox and Catholic backgrounds are joining Protestant churches. Additionally, conversions from Hinduism and Islam are predominantly towards Protestant churches. As a result, the Christian population is growing significantly in India.
Meanwhile I have started seeing indians in the Orthodox churches in Russia for the very first time. I think it's not that the people are becoming protestants, more that the people are becoming Christian. But in India, these people are still few and far between.
I think people who are serious about their faith look for a church that is also serious about its teachings. a LOT of Protestant churchs in the west have mixed themselfs with a lot of secularism, where some churches don't even read from the Bible anymore, it's become a joke. again not all churches just a very large number.
Protestantism is like a stepping stone for converts.
Great to hear. Got a read on that?
And me being Protestant is looking for an EO church. All I have in my whole state is Oriental church
You have made some good points, I will give you that.
I am not masculine, but I had some of these questions back in the late 1990's. I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy back in 1997. I have found the TRUTH I sought. I will die in this great Faith and Church of Jesus. Protestant no longer. PRAISE GOD@
One HUGE reason for people converting that I think doesn’t get stressed in your video is that orthodoxy, along with its connection to heritage and tradition, puts a MASIVE emphasis on spiritual formation and practices. This has been sorely missing from Protestantism because of our allergic reaction to anything emphasizing works. It is super important to understand where this is coming from because Protestants have a TON to learn from this.
I came back to Christianity after 27 years of apostasy and living a sinful life.
I wasn't sure where to go, so I started going to my nearest church, which happened to be Anglican. However, i eventually stumbled on Eastern Orthodoxy and haven't looked back since!
Praise be to God.
Just bought your book! As a former Baptist who became an Anglo-Catholic and seriously considered becoming Roman Catholic, your videos have helped me to see that there are good arguments for Protestantism that are not based on strawmen, and the beauty of traditional Protestantism!
My cousins are Anglo-Catholic. It's a beautiful tradition.
So, you decided to join the church started by a horny king instead Christ, the Son of God? It's either EO, OO, Catholicism or if none of the above, then just non-denominationalism (philosophical Christianity), but these classical protestant branches or later revival movements aren't even serious choices.
Traditional Protestantism is like a paradox. If you go to the roots of Protestantism, you're at Luther. But most evangelical Christians I know don't believe anything he believed. Makes no sense.
@@truthnotlies All this means is that you don't understand traditional protestantism.
@@cerealbowl7038 The founding father of Protestantism, Luther, believed in Real Presence and had a high view of Our Lady. How many latter-day Protestants are like that?
I'm a young man and love what I have learned from orthodoxy and hope to further educate myself in it and if God willing become a catechumen sometime in the near future, Glory to God 🙏❤☦
Genuine question, then- are you okay with everyone outside the Orthodox Church being anathematized simply for rejecting the ultimate authority of that church and for regarding such doctrines as Mary's perpetual virginity and the veneration of icons as false? I get the appeal of the Orthodox Church as an alternative to watered-down evangelical worship. What I don't understand is why the appeal of the "expression" of a particular kind of church experience would supersede questions of fundamental doctrine when determining one's church allegiance.
@@johnnythegringo8855 Yes, I'm completely aware and fine with the position the church holds on these matters. At the end of the day the church is the mirror of Christ on earth, it has the power to bind and lose. and it's not just about the watered-down evangelism it's also what the catholic church decided to do with becoming a more geopolitical centric view of Christianity and trying to appeal to everyone. and to me it's not just an expression if it were just that than I wouldn't care about orthodoxy I clearly see myself being closer to God there, his teachings are at work in the church, and I feel that.
just go to a liturgy irl, the online community can be draining you need to look at it for yourself. I pray you be blessed 🙏❤
@abominable.7800 Fair enough. I'm not sure how you arrive at those doctrinal positions scripturally, but I appreciate that you took the time to respond to me.
13:26 “The Orthodox aren’t says you’re doing church badly, they’re saying you’re not doing church. They say we don’t have the Eucharist..” Exactly, right. Im not saying they’re all damned, but they do not have the Eucharist, any sacraments, valid priests, or even the right understanding of scripture.
When Gavin says “We need to retrieve historic expressions of worship”. I can only think this man is a prophetic voice to the evangelical/protestant branch of Christianity.
I myself am a young men that sometimes struggles in finding historic rootedness in my local church community. I can clearly see this urgent need you speak of.
We need renewal and reform.
Revival is happening. Did you not hear him people are joining the one holy catholic and apostolic church. What are you waiting for.
@@Pelinca I would be quite happy if Protestants practiced the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
@@andygarcia2113they are joining a church that has a leader openly speaking heresy to the world such as all religions leading to God? Sounds like the world following its own whims to me. Until yall rebuke and remove the current Pope, I cannot trust that yall care about the sanctity of doctrine. I don’t care if it wasn’t ex cathedra when he said that, and neither does any non-Christian who heard him say that.
Why not simply go to the historic church!🤣🤷🏽♂️
Simple solution - go to the Church that needs no reform and has remained constant in its teachings and practice - that is... Orthodoxy. You will not find peace until you eventually come home.
33:36 Who's interpretation of Scripture? Yours? Theirs? I'll go with the martyrs and saints, I'll go with Saint Ignatius of Antioch martyr and disciple of Saint John the apostle.
Orthodoxy has changed my life
Gavin, as a young Protestant man looking into Eastern Orthodoxy, I’ve been watching all your videos nonstop. I’ve been talking to EO Christians online for months. Jay Dyer has been a large influence on me questioning Protestantism. I’m still Protestant, but struggling with to make sense of the lack of 5 solas taught in early church, and the formation of the canon from a Protestant perspective. Thank you for all your continuous hard work.
Please continue to make your content, as you’re (in my opinion) one of the main reasons I’m still Protestant. I don’t want to leave, and your videos provide a lot of clarity on this topic and help make sense of this ecclesiastical anxiety. God Bless
The good news is that the Solae are abundantly present throughout the history of the church, if not poorly clarified/ defined.
The issues Dyer presents against the historic protestant position simply do not work. Stay the course dear brother!
@@ScroopGroop Sola Scriptura presupposes a fixed Biblical canon, something that didn't exist for centuries after the death of Christ.
There should only be 1 "sola" and not 5 "sola's." One sola invalidates all the others semantically, at the very least.
@@hackbounties114 not so, there was since the time of Moses always available primarily Jewish texts that that was studied, read, and agreed upon as being authoritative. It wasn’t until Jesus and the NT church do we find new revelations about Jesus and the church that informed the NT cannon that developed much later.
Anyone who declares to you that the five solae were not taught in the early church is banking on the fact that you haven't read the Patristics>>
St. John Chrysostom, Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles:
“There comes a heathen and says, I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose? How shall we answer him? Each of you (says he) asserts, ' I speak the truth.' (b) No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule.
…
We all confess that Christ is God. But let us see who fight (against this truth), and who not.”
I am a young Protestant seminarian. It makes me genuinley happy to see people turn to the Lord, but it breaks my heart to see people who are only interested in Christianity for the aesthetics, the vibes, the culture, the influence, the art, the clout, etc. instead of God's redemptive work in his people through the reality of the Gospel.
Please pray for me and I don't want to follow God only in talk and not in mind or action or affection, etc. I long to be with him and his people. God bless you Dr. O and everybody here!
@@quarantinegames5502 thank you for going into the ministry
Agreed. It's about the Gospel
@@Thatoneguy-pu8tythank you, I hope that my wife and I can somehow use our gifts to serve the world and God. I love watching Dr. Ortlund and his videos
Maybe don’t assume why people are actually converting then. Maybe ask. Maybe even better - go and find out for yourself.
I truly mean this as no offense, but your comment is chock-full of iconoclastic sentiments.
There is not the separation you’re describing in the theology or the practice of Orthodoxy. You’re describing idolatry, not iconography.
I am a former "Evangelical" Pastor, I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy in August. One of the major reasons was it appears that Protestantism is collapsing under the weight of "cultural relevance" I was an emergent church Pastor, I pushed some of this agenda. I have since repented. Protestantism is only 500 years old and I have found while studying the early Christian fathers that Protestantism invented an entirely new theology in comparison. Thank God, I am finally home.
It's happening because protestantism is not ancient with most sects coming out of America. People want more than comedy shows, a rock concert and comfort. Christianity is a martyrdom and the way to achieve the fullness of faith is to become Orthodox. Alot of protestant churches say they are Bible believing while they aren't Orthodox. The Bible was written by our saints, our faith is Apostolic and if people really believed the Bible the road will lead to Orthodoxy but if people want to loosely interpret scripture for there self, running away from it's true meaning then staying protestant and evangelical is for you.
I came back to the orthodox church from protestantism. Best decision of my life! The worship, spirituality and grace is beyond words one can express. The true church of Christ founded at Pentecost! ☦️💜
As an Orthodox Christian with plenty of Christian friends who are Protestant (and also RC…I live in America) it gives me joy to see Christians of any stripe take seriously the Gospel and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles and practice them.
What you say in this video encouraging people to seek stability, strength, wisdom, peace etc in God…Father, Son, Holy Spirit…this is a “fully Orthodox” statement, a teaching that we Orthodox and you share. As humans who sin; we all must continually repent and turn our hearts to God. Merely joining a group…Roman Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox… won’t help us if we don’t continually turn our hearts to God in repentance and obedience to the Lord.
That is what we Christians…Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant… need to do.
As far as which tradition to join, I believe we should seek the Lord’s guidance on that and listen. Go where He calls you to be. Pray for others. Love one another.
you're lowk giving too much ecumenism, but what you say is right, and when we weigh all denominations, Orthodoxy is the only one that comes out on top.
Does your priest know you're on the internet denying that the fullness of the faith is in Orthodoxy?
People like Gavin "don't want to hear it."
I know you mean well. But the tone is slightly too ecumenist for a professing Orthodox Christian
@@patrickbarnes9874 Wait, do you construe fullness to mean that it is only found there, rather than to mean that it is there in entirety?
(Relevant context: I'm not EO.)
I fell into the category of young men looking for a rooted church. After searching for some time, God led me to a Baptist church that has been where it is for 120 years. We have a robust worship and preaching style that is rooted in reformed Baptist theology, which instantly appealed to me more than the more flashy things I’d seen in other churches. It’s also worth noting that over 70% of our members are involved in serving the church in some way… which is unusual for most evangelical or nondenominational churches.
I would say that the fact that you have a preaching style, no matter how wonderful and authentic it is, means you aren't rooted. Rooted worship is liturgical.
@ That depends on how you define liturgy. In Greek, leitourgia is roughly translated to “work of the people” or “public service.” Unless your church bars off outsiders, it’s liturgical in some sense even if not held in cathedrals or involving Gregorian chants. It’s kind of like saying “canine” when being asked what kind of dog you have.
I hear you Gavin. They compare the worst of Protestantism to their best. And there’s so much beauty to be found in Protestantism. Sometimes it may feel like you shouting into the void but we hear you!
It's actually because they are rejecting a morally subjective society; they are sick of it. And Protestantism, by nature, is theologically subjective at its core. Therefore, they don't want it either.
My problem with Protestantism was never that it wasn't beautiful. I was fine with it until I realized it was false.
The best of prots isn't even 1000 years old and still hella heretical, unlike true traditional Christianity which has been here 2000 and is here to stay (EO)
It's not about beauty it's about the ultimate truth. Beauty is subjective and arbitrary what's beautiful to me could be ugly too you. Searching for beauty is a flawed way of thinking when in search of a denomination.
@@davidgravy2007 How is it false?
I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy without watching anything on youtube about it. When my son was born I found myself in crisis, trying to understand how I was supposed to raise him. I prayed everyday for guidance. "God, thank you for my son, please show me what to do." My wife and I were driving around and we passed an Orthodox church and she mentioned that her great grandparents had gone there. I felt something inside. I can't describe it. We stopped and went in and I knew immediately that we were supposed to be there. A year later we underwent chrismation and a few months after that my son and new daughter were baptized. I've never in my life felt more at peace about any decision.
There will never be an end of online discussion about religion. You could watch a hundred videos about why Orthodoxy is right and a hundred videos about why Orthodoxy is wrong. Pray, sincerely, and don't let the noise in your own head drown out the answers you will receive.
How beautiful! God bless
I began pastoring earlier this year in an non-Denominational English speaking church in Frankfurt, Germany. I read your book theological triage 6 months ago and it has been tremendously helpful navigating a church that is so theologically varied. And now I discovered you have your own UA-cam channel! Thank you Pastor Gavin, your ministry is such a blessing to many! Glory to God!
I am an Eastern Catholic. I had always gone for the Latin mass, but the enthusiasm and vigor of Eastern Orthodox converts have made me a very faithful EASTERN Catholic once again. Love you guys!
Eastern Rite is beautiful. Ave Christus Rex, brother!
My husband and I are so grateful to have finally found our spirital home in Orthodoxy! When I converted from lifelong protestantism into the Orthodox Church I felt like I moved from living on theological scraps from under the table, to sitting upright at the table, at the actual feast seeing the complete dishes. Truly, I had never before even practiced daily repentance!!! Christ is so loving and abundant in mercy, and repentance is such an important practice that is us daily exercising our faith in Christ to heal our infirmities (spiritual, emotional, physical). And he is SO faithful. It's truly beautiful to see Him work in our total surrender.
The scriptures and the lived experience of being a Christ follower have never been as real to me as it all is today, living out my faith for Christ within the Orthodox Church. Thank God! 🙏❤️☦️
I'm protestant from birth, and I almost change to eastern orthodoxy.. Your videos is the one that made me change that decision.. Thank you Gavin
Why? What justification did you find so compelling?
His videos have been debunked many times lol
@@MartinC262 Can't debunk the word of God.
@@TheTransfiguredLife To simplify it out, all of the issues that Gavin has raised.. Council of nicaea, Icon veneration, etc
@@MartinC262 Nope, I watched a lot of his videos and other orthodox vides, even RC videos. Not one of them address the issue Gavin raised properly. Some of them even misrepresents the issue that Gavin raised.
So thankful for your channel. What a blessing.
It's always so perplexing to hear protestants express concern over Orthodox Christianity when NONE of their churches even existed more than about 500 years ago. If you could travel back 1000 years, you would find Eastern Orthodox churches and dogma. You wouldn't find a single vestige of Protestantism.
Excellent response.
Because the church grew so corrupt the correct teachings needed to be fixed from the heretical catholic church
This
This is a presupposition that is blatantly false there were groups of Christians throughout the ages that never joined with Rome or Constantinople, and they were mercilessly persecuted for this. Study the history of the Waldenses and the ancient history of the Celtic churches before the 6th century.
@ the Waldenses broke from Roman Catholicism in the late 12th century. Celtic Christianity’s origins are very speculative
I went to an Orthodox church and almost converted, but I just couldn't get over the idea of the intercession of saints.
Now I'm thinking of joining a Lutheran church. I still want some level of "traditional" liturgical service but without the veneration of saints.
Me too lol felt weird about it and looked it up and found Gavin's videos and sure enough it's paganism 😂 the orthodox and Catholic churchs support of venerating icons or venerating Mary is absolutely baseless and both church's need to be reformed which will probably never happen considering how long they've been doing it
What’s the problem with asking people to pray for you?
@@jasbrg the problem is your asking dead people to pray for you LOOOOOL
@@daMillenialTrucker Saints are alive in Christ.
@@jasbrg who gave them the title "saint"? The church did. Not God.
As a former Protestant from a very traditional Anglican Church, becoming orthodox was not a move to find tradition. But rather the beauty of the Orthodox church and seeing how we are meant to participate in the story and person of Christ. I don’t think that returning to traditional Protestant worship will solve the problem. As nothing can replace the Divine Liturgy, and the Orthodox Church’s ability to participate in Christ.
Don’t convert to orthodoxy to find a tradition, but look for Gods revelation to the human heart, his son Jesus Christ.
Most supporters of the Latin Mass also seem to be men. No bad music, no drums, no guitar, no shouting preacher, no disco lights!
Men love beauty
Love your videos Gavin I did make my way to EO. I watched your videos again and again and wrestled for a long time but from what ive seen and researched I came to believe that EO has the fullness of the faith. I will be joining seminary but a EO seminary. Appreciate you as always and you always fighting for Christ though.
So you now begin to bow down to icons, kiss them, and pray through them?
This hits deep! And is one of the reasons I'm in such a place of confusion right now. Although I'm a woman, I see pastors and I don't see the example of calmness and peacefulness, holiness, kindness... And the fruits of the Spirit. I've only seen that in one pastor who is 80+years old. I do want to grow in the faith (I got saved last year) but I so rarely see good examples.
@@EmilTennis00and? Have you read the theological defense of icon veneration or will you just continue to use is as a baseless accusation of idolatry?
@@tylerfgc4704 same here, and like a Narnian, once you’ve walked through the wardrobe, it’s really hard to go back. Everything is different now.
@@EmilTennis00 with complete understanding of why and where it comes from (In my own ignorance I too used to think it was idolatry) yes, and happily do so. But we don’t pray through them. We ask them for prayer on our behalf. Still pray to Jesus 😊
Most of the young converts in the US to Orthodoxy are just exchanging one form of fundamentalism for another. DB Hart calls them evangelical fundamentalists with icons. Many thoughtful Orthodox are alarmed at what American Orthodoxy has become. It’s the latest trend for young men that need security. In the early 2000s it was Reformed fundamentalism now it’s Orthodox and TradCath fundamentalism. It will change again as the years go by. A man secure with Jesus within himself no longer needs or cares about these false securities that will in the end not give them what they are looking for. Ultimately, the issue is within themselves. We have to grow, do our spiritual homework, and live life. Changing the scenery doesn’t fix it. To be fair, Evangelicalism is largely a joke at this point but there are plenty of stable church traditions to go to. Orthodoxy is not the only corner of truth.
This where the loud online "orthobro" comes from, who says you have to join the "one true church" to be saved, but many of these only joined for identitarian reasons rather than theology. A lot of them are probably closet agnostics.
To the extent that there's a legitimate point here (which there is to a degree, although it's overstated), citing Hart undermines the point rather than reinforcing it. According to Hart, adherence to any traditional form of Christianity is "fundamentalism". Having Hart call you a "fundamentalist" is a good thing.
@@ryanward72 Hart is devoutly Eastern Orthodox. In my reading of Hart I don’t see your statement to be accurate or remotely true. I don’t think the point is overstated at all. In the US we are grown in a garden of competing fundamentalisms, political, religious, even down to consumer options. The US is inundated with fundamentalism more so than anywhere else in the world. I think it’s not stated enough. It’s built into the American psyche. Also, keep in mind that I prefaced my statement with most not all converts. Lastly, fundamentalism does not equal traditional. Often what many fundamentalist label as traditional are often modern aberrations.
@@Tiredhike If DBH was devoutly EO he'd affirm the fifth ecumenical council and condemn Origen and universalism. But instead he tries to rewrite history to make the Orthodox Church something it's not. The 5th council was largely reiterating local synods and church fathers who condemned Origen because of his universalist ideas. I don't think he's a good representative of EO at all.
@@JohnMaximovich-r8x I appreciate your opinion and disagree with almost all of it. However, the point of my post was not about DB Hart and now we’re just gonna go back and forth on differing opinions of what it means to be devoutly Orthodox. I’m just not interested in doing that. Again, my post was not about getting wrangled into a debate about Hart. God Bless
A couple points that perhaps you have overlooked
One difficulty is that the outlook of Protestant Christianity is very self focused. You touch on this after a fashion but sort of miss the real point I think. But all these things people are complaining about really touch at this issue. Even the idea of having a sermon at the center of the service caters to the individual, as opposed to a Eucharistic Liturgy in which the focus is on the unity of the Church and joining together in this sacred act of worship.
Jordan Peterson has taught a generation of young men to look away from themselves and find meaning through self sacrifice. This has really resonated far beyond even tide who have heard him. But we're not finding this in protestantism. Sure you preach it in theory but in practice the rugged individualism that has become the focus of modern protestantism is turning these young men away.
What you will really see is something that all the points you are making are ultimately aiming at, which is for us to be joined to something greater than ourselves, where salvation isn't a me and Jesus matter. And for those of you reading i want you to understand this point, this "me and Jesus" type of thinking is really what is driving young men away the most. And they're finding an answer to these problems in Orthodoxy.
Part of the issue is that Protestantism is theoretical, but orthodoxy is existential. You have a lot of very good ideas in Protestantism but they are detached from the world of lived experience. What that means is, we don't know how they actually apply and are useful in this moment. Orthodoxy on the other hand is all about living in the present, and seeing the faith as a practical thing which requires but merely your rational consent but actually living it out. I could say a lot more but i think this is getting at the heart of the matter.
Well said! Very relevant!
The problem with Reason #1 is that it's seeking after something that doesn't exist.
Society is chaotic, and people need stability. The problem is that however sympathetic the desire is, seeking stability and a lack of change becomes idolatrous insofar as we direct our hope and trust in anything but Jesus Christ and the promise of his Gospel.
Trying to find perfection in The Church itself (rather than in the Jesus who promises to meet us there) will become a 'theology of glory' which can never be satisfied and continually needs defending until it can no longer be defended when you realize each and every church's feeble humanity -- abandoning it as a false church, in search once again for the true and uncorrupted "original."
What do you mean? Christ came to establish His Church, not give you a bible and stay at home. I think bibles can become idolatrous if not seeking the person behind it...The scriptures point to His Church.🤷♂Not someone with the greatest education to lead ppl to Christ. Then the Jews should not of built their temple to worship God but simply read the Old Testament at home. Oh wait a minute God told them to build the temple.
Tone- deaf takes like this is kinda why a lot of younger guys don’t go to evangelical churches anymore.
@@TitusCastiglione1503Exactly, he’s essentially saying, “you should settle for horrendous mediocrity at your Protestant church and simply read your Bible at home because anything that gives off the perception of stability and historicity is a stumbling block”… unbelievable cope
@ Technically I said evangelical not Protestant but yeah I mostly agree with you.
@@TitusCastiglione1503Exactly, he’s implying you should stay home, read your Bible, and settle for nearly blasphemous church services because too much stability will be a stumbling block… does he not realize the fixation of Christ in the liturgy is nearly constant?
I was raised Baptist. I learned about EO online through the work of Jonathan Pageau. I found Gavin Ortlund because I knew that I needed to hear a Protestant voice to give an informed response. THANK YOU, GAVIN.
If you went to Pageau then you did not learn about Orthodoxy. Pageau does not represent the Orthodox faith. He is Orthodox and he uses Orthodox symbology and concepts in his content, but his content isn't Orthodox. His content is secular flavored with Orthodoxy. It's like learning about military history by playing Call of Duty.
@@patrickbarnes9874 Fascinating. This is the first time I've heard this position. Where would you say I should look to for info about real Orthodoxy?
Why listen to a protestant voice when you can listen to the voices of people who learned from the apostles themselves, (early church fathers) why would gavin be better than someone who learned from Paul and Peter and John personally. (They teach nothing like protestantism btw)
@@patrickbarnes9874 Why would you go to a hostile/critical external source to learn about something to get a "informed decision?" Should I go to a Jewish rabbi or Muslim imam to learn about specific strain of Protestantism?
I grew up Southern Baptist, but I realized all the contemporary music and lack of solid sound doctrine and I spent a lot of time searching. It may sound like very little change to you, but I became a King James Bible-believing Baptist after seeing overwhelming evidence that the KJV is the perfect word of God. And I realize that will make me really look out of place here. The video "Thy Word be Verified" by Truth is Christ truly is overwhelming evidence and data that no bible on the planet has a chance against the AV 1611. It's not popular to take such a position, but I stand by my beliefs.
So there is a difference and I'm definitely a different kind of Baptist than Gavin judging by that. Sound doctrine is essential to us and getting the gospel out however possible through scripture signs, gospel tracts, street preaching, and of course simply asking people about eternity. We are called to do the work of an evangelist.
And the old traditional hymns certainly have a power that CCM does not have. I'm curious, do great hymns like "Amazing Grace," "How Can it Be?" or "Beneath the Cross of Jesus" actually mean something to an Orthodox Christian? Was the Holy Ghost involved in these songs even if the writers were Protestants? Study the lives of people like Charles Wesley, Fanny Crosby, and Horatio Spafford. God was clearly evident in their lives. My point is there is true faith in Jesus Christ outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.
I was useless to God in a Neo-evangelical church, but now God has emboldened me to go out and do the "apostolic tradition" of street evangelism and be a fool for Jesus Christ. I am most definitely an introvert who does not like the spotlight. I never thought I'd be anything to God, but his grace was sufficient for me (2 Cor 12:9) to serve him. I feel a burden for lost souls and I can't stand to think about people going to hell because I didn't warn them. I have clearly seen the hand of God in my life in how he has protected me and directed me. I know whom I have believed in.
As an individual, I don't know if you are saved, but I hope that you are fully leaning on Jesus Christ for salvation and not an institution. I hope you think on these things. I will pray for you.
I go to a non-denominational church, but that's only because I'm a baptist in an area where the only baptist churches are those with ~20 members, moslty older people. I'd really like to see a push for non-denom churches to join baptist denominations since the theology is usually the same.
As an Orthodox Christian who converted out of the Methodist Church I was raised in, I can say the lack of stability was a big part of that.
Not just the cultural shifts away from traditional liturgy, the old 18th century hymns I'd grown up singing (many of which I still sing on my own), but seeing first hand how much what we were being taught depended on the pastor.
In roughly 8 years, ages 11-19, we went from singing the old Charles Wesley Hymns to the same Christian Pop songs I'd heard on the radio on the ride to church, nearly blocked the congregation's view of a gorgeous and beloved stained glass window of Jesus in favor of a giant TV, thankfully the elderly among us basically revolted and the idea was scrapped, we replaced the real candles at Christmas, Holy Friday, and All Saints Day with plastic battery powered tea lights, but much more importantly, there were doctrinal and moral changes too, most of which were not congruent with scripture.
The reason these little, surface level changes away from traditional worship matter, is because it signals a more relaxed attitude (not in a good way). In our desperation to make people feel welcome, we've slowly let go of tiny pieces of who we are and the more of these little compromises we make, the easier it becomes to compromise on doctrinal, moral, and practical matters.
Are people coming to Christ and being born again, or are they simply committing to a religious system?
Both
By their fruit (at least in my parish) they are indeed born again.
It depends. Many are converting to "traditional" Christianity (and religion generally) in the West for reasons of cultural decline resistance. Thankfully, even impure motivation is used by the Holy Spirit -- but it's still a troublesome and undiagnosed issue. Instrumentalized faith (even with innocent intentions) is never good.
most are coming to a system and dont know the difference
Try taking off your Baptist glasses once in a while 🙄
2:54 Yeah, no. Stay away from any of these captured “Education Institutions” - make sure to do your homework and ensure that they are who they say they are.
As a 44 year old woman, I was the one drawn to Orthodoxy before my husband ever was. I was raised in a Protestant family. We have been attending an Orthodox parish for about 2.5 years.
Orthodoxy is a way of life. Your life becomes Eucharistic. Giving a life time confession, being baptized, and then partaking of the Eucharist is life changing. I can’t even put into words how this has transformed our life and immediate household. We absolutely are greatful beyond words for this Orthodox Faith. Christ is the head and we are His body. We give all the glory to the all Holy Trinity.
Naturally, we want this faith for all people. We desire us to be unified in one faith, one Lord and one baptism. You just can’t find it anywhere else. May God have mercy on us all. May we truly desire Christ’s truth and not our own version of it.
Thank you for your comment, but how do you get around the idolatry of bowing and kissing photos of the dead and praying to the dead? I loved the orthodox church for all the same reasons, but I can't pray to a dead person. For me, tradition is not above the word of God. Please explain, I am not trying to argue with you, but truly asking how you dealt with that. Thanks!
In Roman Catholicism you can have the same things so why prefer divided Eastern (or Oriental) Orthodoxy?
I agree. The Orthodox Church Service is like stepping into the Poem of Life. It is a perfect worship liturgy, with every word being Holy, every tone. Nothing extra added, like a perfect poem that expresses it all. The Bible is like that. And Protestants with sola scripture must feel that way. I am currently stuck between both worlds.
@@vickipritchard2082 me too
@@discernthetruth there is none dead in Christ.
20:32 - Reforming current Protestant practices will only result in further splintering the Church into innumerably more denominations. Come back to Orthodoxy instead - the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
My family and I join the Orthodox Church last year. That's my wife, myself and our 3 children. I was 35 when I started this journey. I found Nothing of substance in the modern "churches".
Honestly, from what I've seen this trend tends to be very unChristian and carnal in motivation. There's a lot of "Ortho-Bro" attitude out there. Which tends to be a lot more manosphere/red-pill than it is Christian. Often if you encounter these guys online and challenge their espoused views with Scripture, you find pretty quickly that they actually don't care that much about the Christian faith. It really is more about the aesthetic than it is the about the Truth, to the point where if the two ever come in conflict, they will most often favor the aesthetic over the Truth. They want the "ancient" and "manly", but not so much the Christ. They actually want Rome (or Byzantium), more so than they want Christ. They tend to take only the Christ they like, i.e. flipping the tables over, and discard everything else wherever it's convenient for them.
Some people will think that I'm being unfair, but I've engaged with a LOT of these guys in comment threads, and I see what I've described here pretty consistently. I'm not saying that this is the norm within the Eastern Orthodox Church, but it does seem to be common among a lot of these new young converts (on the internet) they are receiving, and their elders do not seem to be doing much of anything to correct their errors.
I am a Protestant of the Dutch reformed tradition. We have a rich history and ground our services in the history of the Reformation. We also sing Psalms primarily, with a few hymns and modern songs as long as they're grounded in Scripture.
I appreciate this church because it hasn't strayed from the church tradition established in the cannons of Dort in 1618, as well as the other documents found in the three forms of unity : the Belgic confession (1561) and the Heidelberg catechism (1563).
I am a protestant for now and have been from birth. Only because I haven't decided where to land yet. I'm making my way through the church fathers and the early church seems more inline with RC and EO views. I no longer believe in credobaptism (I know many protestants don't either), I reject PSA and I believe in apostolic succession. I now realize how much of my upbringing was colored by reformed presuppositions
I'm not trying to disparage your love for your traditions but when protestants go Dort or Heidelberg or the reformation you open yourself up for the EO or RC to reframe their traditions as highly more ancient.
Everytime I hear about the wonders of the reformers, my visceral response is so what. I care about the wonders of Justin Matyr, Ireneaus, and Clement (both of them). Why go back to the Renaissance, when I can go back to the end of the apostolic age. Even St. Patrick is more appealing to me than John Wesley, and I went to a Wesleyan School.
I've been to about 22 different churches in 2024 from Egyptian Coptics to Assembly of God. And if you want to retain your flock I think you need to go to other churches and learn their doctrines as well. Talking to someone who's RC and EO as a protestant is like talking to a European as an American. Each side has their own pressuppositions and assumptions about the other.
@@juniper-ug3hs PSA is in the bible. Isaiah 53, etc. Galatians 3:14 declares Christ to have become a curse for us. If that's not PSA, what is that? There's definitely more one could point to.
@BernardinusDeMoor you're equating sacrifice and exchange with punishment. Galatians talks about redemption. Cursed is a man who hangs on a tree refers to deuteronomy. The man is cursed because he is a criminal guilty of murder, already put to death and hung on display and the order is to not let his corpse rot on the tree overnight. Christ was innocent. Ransom theory, Christus Victor, etc. They have Jesus dying in exchange or in place of us to conquer death and destroy Satan. Not as a punishment. PSA wasn't explicitly codified until Anselm in the 8th century.
@@juniper-ug3hs Yes, it refers to Deuteronomy. Christ bears the curse in our stead. That's penal (a curse) substitutionary (in our stead) atonement.
>Christ was innocent.
Yes, this is a fairly essential part of PSA.
>Ransom theory, Christus Victor, etc.
Yes, more than one theory of the atonement can be true at once, as they describe different aspects of Christ's work.
>PSA wasn't explicitly codified until Anselm in the 8th century
Sure it was. For one example, Athanasius appears to describe it in In the Incarnation section 20, with the reference to Christ becoming a sacrifice in order that our debt be paid.
@BernardinusDeMoor what is the curse? Death. Exchanging your life for another's is sacrifice but not punishment. He willing allowed himself to be killed to conquer death. Athanasius also in section 23 and 24 goes into more detail on why Christ died on the cross. To defeat Satan, die publicly, serve as a icon of uniting jews and gentiles, and die with a unified body. The saint is heavily venerated by the EO and RC. If he affirmed PSA, don't you think they would too? Also, the other theories are present in the early fathers. PSA is not. It also creates more problems with the functioning of the trinity if Christ is a recipient of God's wrath rather than an offered sacrifice killed by Satan and the world. You don't get to lump all atonement theories together and claim they are synergistic when they aren't. If the logical implications of your theory form a picture of "Christ's work" to use your words that is contrary to the other theories, then I don't see how you get to hold it on equal footing.
Gavin, I am very glad you put in significant time and effort toward your ministry on UA-cam. These conversations are needed and are much appreciated.
I often find myself in agreement with much of what you express, and in our differences I find myself stimulated to look deeper.
I have been researching church history for most of this year past, the early church, church councils, schisms and the reformation and have learned a great deal. There's more still to learn, yeah, quite a bit, but I feel comfortable in that I've grasped a fair amount of the structure of it all.
But I have been listening, examining what the Orthodox have to say about themselves, their theology, their perspective on church history and their view of how one might live a more fulfilling life.
I think you've hit many things about Orthodoxy right on the mark but I also consider that at times you may have over-emphasized what you think of them at the expense of what they are actually saying about themselves. Commenting further on that is beyond the scope of what I am here to say.
I am seriously considering joining with the Orthodox - I was raised Southern Baotist and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I am his, he knows me and I know him. Nothing about that will change, should I become Eastern Orthodox, whatever anyone else may say.
I think you are mostly right in many of the reasons why young men might leave protestantism and join with the Orthodox, but in my case it goes further.
I have not found the fellowship of other Christians who are deeply in love with Jesus in my church of origin, rather people with thin expressions of it, people overwhelmed with the concerns of this world. There's been little of the deeper growth, of anything respecting mystery or Mysticism or of a deep daily, moment by moment walk with Jesus. Yet these factors are major aspects of the life and teachings of Orthodoxy.
In short, I've felt lonely for many years - I've not failed to deepen with Jesus but its been far and away a solo adventure.
Politics, the Christian Nationalism movement, the desire for worldly power, and an out of bounds sense of self importance/superiority on the parts of many of my fellow Southern Baptists has been more the rule. In truth, I have often found myself thinking "aren't we supposed to be changed and transformed from the world, rather than come to increasingly resemble it?"
I am looking for "the real" Christianity and the fellowship of others looking for it, too. I think it may exist in Orthodoxy in a fuller sense than in any other place I've looked, and so I am studying it carefully. At the moment, I'm looking for a reason not to join but so far after listening to the Orthodox talk about what they are doing, I am not finding one. We'll see where it goes.
People leaving for Orthodoxy are looking for and finding consistency and stability among other things. As someone that’s hopped around Protestant denominations most of my time as a Christian I agree and I’m going EO also. From my experience it is the Church of the apostles.
I can't wait to meet you at The Master's table so we can feast together!
Protestant "preaching" is basically a live Spotify podcast where dude gives his little take on a bible verse. Facts
I left Protestantism for Orthodoxy and it was the best choice I could have made. The theology is healthier, historical, and biblical. ☦️
A recent convert from the Protestant church to the Eastern Orthodox Church wrote the following:
“We are finding a beauty in the Orthodox Church that resonates with our minds and hearts. We describe what we are experiencing as unity, mystery, community, humility, an ancient sacredness, a healing of the soul, as well as love, joy and peace . . . My wife and I feel like we are coming home to the fullness of the faith.”
We are witnessing a revival in the hearts of young men in America. It’s a revival drawing them to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I agree with Dr. Ortlund that the Protestant Church and the Roman Catholic Church can learn from the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Dr Gavin’s response to orthodox conversion is “Reform and renewal in church practice” ya y’all been doin that for 500 years it’s not working that’s why we go back to the very beginning. Pre-denominational. I appreciate Dr Gavin and how charitable he is though. Glory to Jesus Christ ☦️
You know one of the mottos of the reformers was: Semper Reformanda! Which means "Always reforming!" So as Jesus hold the Jews accountable to the sure word of God, the same way we have to check whether there crept unbiblical traditions in the church. It was very much the case at the time of Luther in the RC!
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@@Metanoia235 what came first, the church or the New Testament?
@@Metanoia235always reforming also implies forever corrupted and flawed. Because why would it need reforming in the first place if it wasn't for doctrinal error or corruption of the faith. Which is a strange way of viewing the Body of christ which is the church.
Glory forever! ☦️
I grew up Evangelical, and largely stopped going to church because it’s ‘what’s in my head’ that mattered. The last Protestant service I attended had headstones on the projectors, a gas can on the lectern, and a self-help message with an alter call. I learned of church history and humbled myself to accept the beliefs of those who came before me. I started attending EO churches, and later became Orthodox, almost 4 years ago.
Another banger
I am hesitant to join Eastern Orthodox formally because of this 'masculine' trend. It's almost like its part of a spiritual/religious side of these self-improvement lifestyles.
I too got that same impression. Its good to know I wasn't alone in this thinking
Eh, I won’t judge their intent just yet. Sometimes God works through trends like that to draw those who are truly seeking Him, so I will leave judgement to God on that. Let’s just pray that the Lord guide them and produce the fruits of the Spirit in their lives.
I get that. But you should try reading the words of our saints and going to an actual parish/parishes instead of judging it by what you see online, which is filled with polemics and engagement bait.
100%. Your analysis is correct.
The best thing to do is to try as much as possible to ignore the trends and be as influenced as possible either way. It's just as much of a mistake to avoid a tradition because of trends as it is to join it because of trends. The Orthodox church makes a set of claims about what it means to genuinely follow Jesus. If you find those claims convincing you should convert. If you don't, you shouldn't. Everything else is a distraction.
Awesome and timely post!!!! Thank you for doing this!!!!
I loved this. It spoke so much to my current struggle as I become exposed to church history and different views within the faith. The ending pastoral exhortation is always the most important part of your videos in my opinion. A call to be grounded "on Christ the solid rock" for "all other ground is sinking sand." Thank you for this reminder as I feel tossed by the waves of uncertainty. I know Christ offers forgiveness to we who repent and trust in him and I am in Christ. Thank you Lord, and thank you Gavin for your ministry.
I’m a simple Man. I see Gavin, I click like.
Gavin Ortlund is always worth listening to.
I'm also a simple man.
Hey I saw the same comment on mike wingers video
From another simple man take my like brother
Hello fellow simple men