How Sauber-Mercedes (briefly) Dominated Group C
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2023
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Group C Sportscar racing. A golden age for power, speed, and automotive innovation. But towards the end of Group C’s decade in the limelight, things began to change and not for the better. Mercedes, champions in 1989 with the rocket-ship Sauber C9 faced the challenge of not only defending their crown but navigating the toxic politics away from the track. This is the story of how they did it.
Edited by: JD Minny ( @jdminny )
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Great video!!! C11 has to be one of the coolest group C cars, shame it didn’t race at le mans in 1990 😢
And the XJR-14
One of the best automotive channels on UA-cam hands down
Every video I watch has, “the next season rule changes caused a redesign”. I’ve known some of these cars from Forza but it’s crazy how many changes to rules and classes there were! Great job keeping it straight. Can’t imagine the racing R&D budgets!!!
Gorgeous machine and fantastic thumbnail artwork 👌
Thanks!
Interesting that Mercedes withdrew the C291 from the 1991 Le Mans. I didn't know that.
Makes sense, as Jaguar did the same with the XJR-14, despite qualifying it in 2nd place. They ran XJR-12s instead.
Thr C11 is beautiful, and sharing the sonorous engine of the C9 helps. Shame it didn't win Le Mans, but the WSC title is nothing to be sniffed at. One of my favourite group C cars
Love your channel, man!
I've had a lifelong love affair with race cars, or more broadly, with everything that has an engine in it.
Your videos of these old classic race cars take me back to my childhood.
Keep up the good work!
The 5l V8 sounds so good.
I absolutely love how the C11 sounds.
I love seeing a channel grow from scratch. Great video as always!
Scary thought was that the flat -12 unit was theoretically eligible for Formula One. Can you imagine McLaren bombing in 1995 with even more engine explosions that the Peugeot motor if Mercedes-Benz had persisted with the flat-12??? Given the complete failure of Subaru, Life, Isuzu and Porsche with similarly curious 12-cylinder engines during the same period, the 1991 Japanese win was truly miraculous!
Feeding the algorithm
Feeding an awesome Channel ❤
This channel covers what others dont. Well deserved.
Yum yum yum
Oh look me to
What a hungry algorithm!
Thanks for this video. Again, amazing historical footage! It was sad how Sauber and Mercedes-Benz fell out in Formula One after so much success in Group C.
The flat-12 worked, but to a point. Excellent torque but often overcomplicated, heavy and wide. It had it's heyday in the 1970s, after which in most motorsport disciplines you needed a V-configuration engine to beat a V-configuration engine.
man I love your videos ! please stick to it, here since 2k subs and you're almost at 50k!! quality content slowly being recognised. much love from wales :)
I was just watching your old group c cars videos and I love this one too
C11 sounds vicious. Absolute beast.
Brilliant channel, formats and content. Lovely clear commentary as usual and as always full of details which might be overlooked or omitted by other channels! Keep it up!
Edit: Spelling.
Happy Birthday Peter Sauber 🎉
And if you have wondered how the nomenclature of all of Saubers ever built racecars come from: The "C" stands for "Christine", Peter Saubers wife.
Never forget the Sauber C11. Sauber C11 originally considered to be successor to the legendary Ayumu Uehara's Sauber Mercedes C9...
keep up the great work please. everything on point here. footage, information, delivery! thanks man!
I already know you’re gonna hit a 1 million subs in time. Your content is premium.
Your segways into Carvertical are seamless. Classic Top Gear. Also the change in music is welcomed.
My favorite racing car by far!! Thank you for making this informative video.
Not only is C 10 kinda awkward to pronounce in regular German, it's even a bit more awkward in a Zürich dialect (Sauber is based in Hinwil after all). In that dialect (and many other Swiss dialects) the "n" at the end of 10 is silent, so it sounds like "zeh zäh". I tried it with Google translator's text to speak and the words sounded almost identical, in dialect the words would sound a bit less similar, but it gets the point across
Yeah. I was thinking the same. C and zehn are just too similar in german. With any less then perfect pronounciation the endproduct would most likely sound like a very dangerous and annoying insect - the tsetse fly.
The C291 being the top car in World Racing 2 was certainly an interesting choice given its unlucky racing career
You are honest, honest to God, my new favorite UA-camr thank you for making these videos
This guy cracks me up with his glasses but I love his videos. Good automotive history channel, it’s like going back in time!
Your pronunciation of Zweihunderteinundneunzig (291) was on point!
Mercedes history is so interesting man, I hope you can do some of their older legendary cars
Always great videos from this channel
Considering that in 1991 the engine formula was 1:1 with that in F1, perhaps the biggest mistake Mercedes ever did was to go to the Flat-12, when V10 was a king in F1. Even Ferrari, who had their golden years with Niki Lauda and Jody Scheckter in the 70's with Flat-12 engine (and somehow made a ground effect car around it in 1979), had chosen V12 (because...muh 12 cylinders) configuration when turbos were banned in 1989 (Ferrari were so stubborn that it kept using V12 until 1996 when even they realized that to win a title a V10 is needed; Even Ford ditched the V8 for V10). Subaru "tried" to reintroduce the Flat-12 with the Motori Moderni-built 1235 bolted into the hopless Coloni, but was an utter failure (only the Life W12 was even worse) and the Coloni team (who had to buy half of the team back from Subaru) finished the season with a conventional Ford Cosworth DFR V8. The Subaru engine will see further use in the World Sportscar Championship in another woeful attempt - this time by the Alba team in 1990
There was also the capacity cut in F1 from 3.5 to 3.0 in 1995 which pushed the V12s over the edge into uncompetetiveness.
Well actually they used the V12 until 1995
About time you put out a new video!
I love that I found this channel
Yes!! Finally another automobilistic upload! My day has been blessed! ❤
Great video!
Jaguar xjr-14 also never raced at Le Mans… there’s pictures of it running during the test day but Jaguar chose to use their older spec-cars in the race due to reliability concerns. I guess it kinda did race there eventually as a Mazda entry…
Its almost as if F1 style engines weren't meant for endurance...
@@automobilisticBecause they weren't. In Endurance, durability and predictability is much more important than 20000 RPM and 800 horsepowers. In F1, where the races are much shorter (2-4 hours per race, plus quali), you can exploit the engine's capabilities, and have a peaky and "unreliable" (by endurance standards) engine. In endurance, as the name suggests, the goal is to run many hours without significant amount of stopping, only pitting for fuel, tire and brake change, fastening some bolts, and changing drivers, but no engine swaps or adding nitro.
Of course, nowadays F1 is focusing more on durability with these new engine rules.
@@mozeskertesz6398 I dont like being that guy, but the joke truly flew over your head here.
@@automobilistic classic old man balestre
The content quality is amazing as always
really appreciate it :)
8:18 wait this is the dijon prenois racetrack i d'ont know group c has race on it
Hey Man, was wondering if you'd do a video on the Mclarens in the Can-Am era. Truth be told, that's where it all started, but not enough focus on that era
Would love to cover more Can-Am stuff, will look into it!
@@automobilistic you're a legend Man!
Sick videos bro
3:38 "tseh tsehn" :D
This is so cool
Wow! Excellent content, my friend. Sub’d
Cheers! 👍💪✌
i appreciate the try at speaking german. the 291wasn't even bad :D
Dieser Kommentarbereich ist nun Eigentum der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
A very cool video of a very cool car!
He's done it again!
Wow, your german is very good
Mercedes always tend to mess up in one way or the other.
group c was just...
wow
Anotha banger!
Just got that Sauber on GT7. Clicked cause I didn't get first place first try. Gotta see how THEY rock it.
So why exactly did group C switch over to those new 3.5l regulations? Its crazy to me how they went from the golden era of group C around 89, to almost immediately killing off the series after just a couple years of skyrocketing budgets due to teams basically having to completely build new race cars and engines from the ground up. Why on earth didnt they just keep the older regulations that allowed for such diverse types of engines and cars??
Bernie Ecclestone pretty much killed the WSC to make manufacturers hop into F1.
Two Words: Bernie Ecclestone.
More specifically, Bernie Ecclestone wanted WSC to have Engine Parity with F1 (3.5-L naturally-aspirated engines with up to 12 cylinders) to tempt the OEMs competing in WSC to jump ship to F1.
@@legoferrari14A plan that effectively worked. Mercedes, Jag, Toyota, BMW and Peugeot all joined F1 sooner or later.
But in a cruel and poetic justice, the same issues that plagued Group C even before 3.5L regulations, skyrocketing costs, would hit F1 massively hard up the ass in the late 2000s so, perhaps it's good that the WSC didn't at least go through that kind of violent rude awakening
@@legoferrari14 It was basically a cost cutting measure.
ME WHEN
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ME WHEN NEW AUTOMOBILISTIC VIDEO
Im surprised there are more c9 model cars yet no C11 model cars...
isn't that mercedes changed their focus to the gt1 championship with clk gtr and the flying clr?
The Mercedes GT1 effort didn't really start until 1996/7 - a fair few years after their 1991 WSC departure
Interesting video.
Used to go to Le Mans every year through the late 80's and early 90's.
Flew the flag supporting Jaguar which had the awesome naturally aspirated 7 litre V12's.
The Mercs had a twin turbo V8.
And there in lied the issue.
They were very, very cagey about what boost pressure they were running - often the outcome would be distorted cylinder heads...!
Some say they were massaging the rules.
Others say they were cheating bastards.
Who knows
Have a nice day everyone
Nice
My guess is C10 sounds like tsetse fly in German.
I blame Gran Turismo for my crippling addiction to Sauber Mercedes C cars. Of course, this is nothing compared to what Pokemon and Dragon Ball did to my fragile psyche.
I’ve been here since your first video and it just now clicked in my head what your channel name is a combination of LOL. But anyways I’m so glad to see this channel grow, another great video on a great car as always
Second
I like ur videos
Imagine going "Hmm, these racing politics are too toxic. We should join F1 instead"
Could you please do an episode on the Toyota 88C-V, the Minolta. Thanks. Love your channel by the way!
Yeaahhhh
Hopefully Merc F1 team follows the WSC campaign;
Have success, suck really bad, leave the sport..
Fck i just bing watched all your videos LOL
What was the car that flipped
The car that flipped was the Mercedes CLR - a GT1 car that competed in 1999
@@automobilistic The Sauber c8 also flipped in 1985 Le mans with John Nielsen at the wheel.
Nom nom
Vroom.
theres a difference, least to germans, between hard to say and being a mouthful and that second name is just a mouthful
Gid
BENZ グループC Car good ❤🎉🎉🎉
JD??
Flat-cylinder engines were not in Mercedes-Benz's blood.
Mercedes with Micheal Schumacher failed to win Le Mans in 1991 losing to a Mazda 787B Mazda a team that struggled won Le Mans
German here, C10 in german sounds like you’re stuttering, it basically pronounced Ze Zehn.
🗣️🗣️‼️🔥 WAKE UP BABE NEW AUTOMOBILISTIC VIDEO 🔥‼️🗣️🗣️
It‘s not see sen it would be tse tsen
Have you considered disgussing Brawn f1 and their rise and emediate exit from f1 back in ’09?
I think Keanu reeves has that one covered
They didnt Exit, they sold. The Mercs of 2010 we're in Essence Brawns.
The thumbnail is misleading, this car is as much a Mercedes as the modern Alfa Romeo F1 team is Alfa Romeo, in that they're both actually Sauber with manufacturer sponsorship
That isn't true. The C8 was predominantly a Sauber with a Mercedes engine, and to an extent the C9 too, but the C11 was very much a joint project. To my knowledge Mercedes not only provided the engine, but were heavily involved in chassis and bodywork design. It was absolutely nothing like Alfa-Romeo's current name only deal in F1.
Mercedes steadily increased their involvement in the joint Group C project, to such an extent that the C291 (which had been co-developed with the C11 of course) didn't even carry Sauber chassis codes, rather Mercedes ones.
"Can only go up from there, right?"
Up! 😂
Hi
Ruled WSC for one year only. 1989! Jaguar ruled for a decade
Sauber-Mercedes ruled for 2 years, 1989 and 1990 - thats what the video is about...
@@automobilistic if you’d been there at Le Mans 1990 I think a British car company came 1st and 2nd. You also forget Mercedes (Hitlers fav car) never even came close at the Daytona 24hrs which said British co. Won in 88 &. 90. Still Schumacher was superb at LeMans he got faster each lap even at night shame car let him down and Dr Johnathan Palmer
@@vernongoodey5096 you didn't say le mans originally, you said WSC. The video tells the story of why mercedes didn't contest le mans in 1990.
I didn't "forget" about Daytona either, the video is explicitly about WSC (its literally in the title)
Edit: I'd also like to make clear that referring to Hitler in a discussion about 90s sportscar racing is baffling - but does explain your apparent lack of comprehension of the video you've decided to comment on.
Porsche would disagree with you. The 956 and 962 absolutely dominated Group C from its inception to about 1987.
Zaubah
Group C was destroyed because it was a threat to Formula 1.
I think it was more that F1 wanted to poach Group C manufacturers by forcing them to effectively develop F1 engines or partner with F1 teams. Either way the the effect was the same...
1980s and 1990s swimsuit trophy girls just hit different. They’re like McDonalds Sprite.
Not just that, but Schumacher was on track to win at Le Mans in his first outing in spite of all the ridiculous track politics that hamstringed their car. Definitely would not refer to it as "beaten roundly by the Mazda 787B", which implies total defeat and domination. The Mazda was nowhere even close to the Mercedes and basically won by being too slow to qualify for heavy restrictions. An absolute mockery of the sport and has played into constant rosey revisionist history about how Mazda was "too fast".
“One of the greatest of all time.”
Helped by secret traction control, compliant teammates, a cast-iron number one status, cars developed solely around him, etc. etc.
Hence greatest?
Mercedes was just sauber’s engine supplier… it was sauber’s team and chassis development that was dominant
Mercedes was a bit more than an engine partner, it was a joint partnership (hence why the team ran as Sauber-Mercedes), and by the 291 the Sauber name was dropped completely and the team ran just as Mercedes. It wasn't a tradition engine supply deal the likes of which exist in F1 today for example, Mercedes dedicated design and technical staff to aid chassis development and aerodynamic design as well as engine design and manufacture
@@automobilistic yea makes sense… I didn’t know that the C291 (the c designation in the chassis name was a sauber thing) was an all Mercedes design. You’ve done the research for the video so imma take your word for it… but saw Mercedes in the video title and thought it was misleading a bit since sauber were the team originally… same when sauber entered F1 in ‘93-95 with Mercedes engines… they were just sauber not Mercedes…
@@automobilistic hence even why today even tho sauber is Alfa Romeo on name, the chassis are still labeled C41 bc sauber do the actual building of the car, and Alfa Romeo do the branding
Sauber do use the Cx naming scheme, but Mercedes used C2xx not only for their final Group C car(s), but then for their GT1 cars (CLK GTR and CLK LM) which were designed by Mercedes (as with the C291) and to my knowledge built by Lola.
Its fair to say that for the C8 Mercedes was primarily an engine supplier, and the C9 too (though with more involvement), but by the days of the C11, and particularly the C291, Mercedes' design, technical and financial input can't be understated. It was nothing like the name-only deal Sauber currently have with Alfa-Romeo.
@@automobilistic ok cool
They named it that Way, because its not really complicated to say ZehZehn for Germans. Just for the Rest of the World.
mazda 787B only won because of C11's broke down and XJR12's reliability issue.
Yes - but reliability is part of the competition, doesn't matter how fast you can go if you don't finish the race. The fact that the 787B was slower than the competition doesn't devalue their win, if anything, it makes it more special.
why does that matter?? they won the biggest motorsport race in the world
Calling the C9-C11 a Mercedes, is like calling the McLaren F1 the "BMW F'1". Isn't?
no, not really
Yeah, nah, not at all.
Shows you just how ugly dive planes make a car now
Imagine if displacement was measured in fl. oz 😂
Schumacher wasn't even the big star of the Silver Arrows young driver squad - Wendlinger and Frentzen were both expected to be better.
The real group c king. Not the Mazda sht box.
Sauber. Not Mercedes.