The Hebrews were delayed due the God not allowing any generation who had left Egypt for the promise land to actually SEE the promise land, not till the last one died get they get there, Moses didn't even see the land of milk and honey
+David Yaconis um dude Odesseus had to go through a long journey cuz he got lost at sea cyclops ate his crew and he has to go threw monsters and he was so close one time to getting home but the wind strating to get harsh and the ship flew all the way to another place
Wayne Cronin they really didn't. it took generations for the hebrews to get from egypt to the promise land. almost none of the original freed slaves were alive.
I'd just like to point out that Odysseus' sleeping around was necessary for his survival. If a powerful goddess like Circe or Calypso wants to have sex with you, you don't have much choice. If you reject them, it could spell doom for you, or your loved ones. Horny gods punishing mortals for denying them sex is a recurring theme throughout Classical Mythology.
Some fun Odyssey notes: Circe doesn't give directions to Ithica after Helios' island, implying that she's well aware of how the journey will go. Odysseus has been gone for 20 years, and beyond that his wife has remained totally faithful before the advances of somewhere around 100 men over the last 3, but he still decides to observe and judge her in disguise. The only reason he doesn't immediately reveal himself to his son is because he's worried about word getting back to Penelope. The people that finally deliver Odysseus to his homeland are turned to stone by Poseidon for their troubles, and the only thing that stops him from wiping out their city entirely is Zeus going "c'mon, man, tone it down a bit."
>Odysseus is literally made Calypso's stud >Forced to have hot divine sex every day for seven years >Calypso asking him every day to live as an immortal with her >Odysseus STILL wants to go back to Ithaca and Penelope >He goes to the water and cries every day looking out towards Ithaca Odysseus' devotion to his wife and people is superhuman, that's why he's the hero. some nice piece of information I found on the web
One time in like fourth grade my teachers were reading the Odyssey aloud while the class illustrated it, and right before the slaying of the suitors, the teacher, Daniel, Looks at the class and says, "Ok kids, sharpen up your red pencils."
The Odyssey is Homer un-writing the Iliad. When Odysseus raids, cheats, and behaves generally like a Iliadic hero he is at his weakest (and at the beginning of his odyssey). By the end he refuses to cheat on his wife with the incredible fantastic Nausica, he shows almost inhuman patience and self-control in the face of the suitors' abuse, and he choses nostos over kleos, the choice Achilles couldn't stand to make. What's more, Achilles himself discredits the entire premise of the Iliad when Odysseus sees him down in the land of the dead, by saying that "it is better to be the lowest slave than king among all the unnumbered dead." And he doesn't "lie to everyone he knows." His Cretan narratives are really important, non-violent defenses against a situation similar to Agamemnon and Clytemnestra.
So even Odysseus, who is wise enough to be praised by Athena for his wisdom, loses himself in war. Does that say something about our attraction to war?
"You can tell I'm an English teacher because I'm wearing a sweater, but you can tell I'm an English teacher who wants to be your friend because I'm wearing awesome sneakers." It's hilarious to me because that is actually my thought process when I talk to my teachers. I'm like, "Hey, I don't know if you're just putting on that friendly face as an act for the class or - oh! You're wearing converse. You must be legit."
I don't understand why people are complaining. This is CRASHCOURSE, of course a couple of minutes is not enough to cover all the themes to discuss. And John is entitled to his opinion on patriarchy. All the objections to it just go to show how entrenched this idea is.
The idea that the patriarchy exists any more is neofeminist bullshit. It was smashed a long time ago - before John was even born. The reason people are upset is because he completely blindsides the viewers with this. I watched this video not because I wanted to get false accusations of double standards thrown in my face, but because I wanted to see another person's opinion on the Odyssey. John is a scholar, or should be. He shouldn't be talking about a patriarchy existing /today/ if he was doing his homework instead of falling prey to yellow journalism and sensationalism. His brother did the same shit a while back, and the Internet Aristocrat (just going to plug him here, since he's a well-learned man who doesn't fall into these trappings) tore him a new one. I get the idea. I know that women have things they have to put up with as well, but boiling down a complex issue down to "It's the mens fault!" is like boiling down the problems with the American healthcare system to "It's not socialized!". I'm severely disappointed in John Green, but I mean no ill will with what I right. I know he's lurking these comments, and wholeheartedly wish he would take what I'm saying to mind. Don't push political agendas down our throats if you don't know both sides of the equation. It's like trying to explain how partial fraction decomposition works without teaching people how to turn it into matrices.
***** If someone is rewriting history because of crotch politics you can't help them. They think because feminism points out its usually upper class men in power that makes them the bad guys. So than they get pissed off because they're just regular dudes who have no power. You could tell them, "Hey in ancient times women weren't allowed to be actresses only men could preform on stage, and they'd twist it around and go, "SEE! MEN WERE DANCING AROUND FOR WOMEN'S ENTERTAINMENT WHILE WOMEN JUST SAT IN THE AUDIENCE AND DID NOTHING!!!"
***** It's hard to tread your waters because it seems pretty anecdotal. Do women REALLY have to show why she's worthy in an argument? Using rape as a topic of patriarchy is pretty shaky at best. Both men and women suffer rape (although I will say that women are the majority, for fairly obvious reasons) and feel severe emotional distress afterward. Both have unfair double standards placed on them afterward (Women: Why did you dress like that?!?! Men: What, you didn't like it bro?!?!). There are a lot of disgusting plays in a defense lawyer's handbook for all cases. It's not patriarchy. I reiterate my point from earlier to your second paragraph. I would like to say there's a HUGE difference between a patriarchal society and a sexist society. Patriarchal societies give distinct benefits to men, by men and usually actively promoted these benefits and ideas. Sexist societies are just what they are; sexist, in any sort of obvious way. We're probably the latter. No one mentions the sexism in any pre-19th century books, because, well, WE KNOW. We all know that sexism and especially patriarchal societies were the dominant force and we all know where this occurs within the book. It's not hard to realize that every woman Odysseus meets either wants to fuck him or is waiting to BE fucked by him. If you want to go full Anita Sarkeesian on modern media, be my guest, but there are plenty o' refutations for her. Plenty.
Feminism isn't about playing fair. It's boogeyman strawman bullshit that paints males as either spineless worms or devilish demons out to keep women down. It is a conspiracy theory down to its heart. Modern feminism is basically the same as people who blame Obama for all of our problems. Everyone gets shafted by people with more money, but feminists complain the loudest about because their ancestors were oppressed (and even then, most women at the time didn't give a rat's ass. They knew the role they played in the survival of the species, and they knew the role that men played. Until the 1900's, there weren't any appealing jobs that women would want to fight for, so they were perfectly content with a patriarchy.)
The patriarchy part is ridiculed, here as it is in general, because its a ridiculous myopic notion. Hes entitled to opinions, but not exempt from the laughter of unfounded ones.
A side note on the open letter: there's actually a theory about this among sociologists that says property was the initial reason for this double standard. In order for a man to pass down his property rights, he had to know who his child was. He couldn't do this if he couldn't guarantee he was the only person sleeping with the woman who claimed to be carrying his child. This wasn't a problem for women, because they gave birth, so they would know which children were theirs. It doesn't make things right, but it's a theory about why men needed to control women's sex lives.
Nice video, but... I dont understand why you see everything with modern logic. This epos was written almost 2800 years ago. They had other morals, habits, traditions. You pay attention to all the murders, misogynism etc when there are tons of other amazing points in the story. To the people who watched the video, i recommend reading both the Iliad and Oddysey. They are both unique and amazing, theres nothing else similar to them. P.S. The Trojan Horse is NOT in the Iliad! Its in Aeneid, an epic poem by Virgilius.
He does bring up that it was in another time period, though. I think it is fair to look back on it from a modern viewpoint in a lot of respects, especially when comparing our culture of today to that of the Odyssey and Iliad.
Then I refer you to Cyrus's bill of human rights... I think morality is "absolute", and not relative. Illiad and Odysseus are an encyclopedia acquired skills for a Greek as to how to live their lives based on immorality; a daily Greek routine.
I don’t think it is inherently wrong to appraise an ancient work through a modern lens. No one can be entirely objective while reading a piece a literature. Neither should that be the purpose of reading.
Please don't ever stop making literature videos, because we don't have English literature in high school in where I live and I want to study it so bad, even if my English is really not good
In which John Green teaches you about Homer's Odyssey. If it was Homer's. If Homer was even real. Anyway, that stuff doesn't really matter. John teaches you the classic, by which I mean classical, epic poem, the Odyssey. The Journey of Odysseus as he made his way home after the conclusion of the Trojan War is the stuff of legend. Literally. John will teach you about the double standard in Greek culture, Odysseus as jerk/hero, ancient PTSD, and cycles of violence. Also, there are no yogurt jokes. So think of that as a gift. Our Subbable lead sponsor this week is Damian Shaw, who wants to thank Bryonie, Stew, Maureen, Peter & Morgan for their support. Our Subbable co-sponsors are: Max Loutzenheiser Katy Cocco A Long and Difficult Journey, or The Odyssey: Crash Course Literature 201
Nonamearisto So, criticising a man who cheats on his wife and then murders all of his maids for having had sex makes him leftist? That says more about you than it does John Green.
Deshara I don't think that is nonamearisto's point. I think he's chafing at the overly simplistic analysis of the poem that John gives. I do however also reject his characterization of this analysis as 'radical left-wing' as overly simplistic. I would characterize it more as 'present-centric,' which is surprising given that John has done countless Crash Course History videos. As to the hanging of the maids, that was just what you did in those days to anyone who fraternized with the enemy, male or female. Notice that even the 'nice' suitors (Amphinomous being a prime example) end up dead. This is my main problem with the analysis. John's 3 main points ('The Odyssey is sexist', 'The Odyssey is violent' and 'Odysseus is an asshole') are so painfully obvious I don't really need a 12-minute video to explain them to me. John could have done a far better job by acknowledging these obvious parts and then delving into the nuances. The Odyssey not as sexist or violent as it first appears, nor is Odysseus as much of an asshole as he first appears.
50% of the comments on this video are telling me the patriarchy is over and the other 50% of the comments are telling me I'm some kind of busted door lock because I enjoy the completely natural biological function of sex, while men who enjoy sex get to strut around stroking their magical master keys or whatever. When really, 100% of people should be holding hands and weeping about Odysseus's dog waiting faithfully for 20+ years and dying when he sees his master has returned. omg I love heartbreaking dog stories more than I love the natural biological function of sex which is really saying something. Remember that part in Homeward Bound where you think the golden retriever died but then he finally appears limping home to greet the oldest kid in the family????? tears.
I totally disagree with the idea of the Odyssey being sexist (for its time. Don't get me wrong, if it was written today I would consider it to be a misogynistic horror). It's not saying that women should be feared: it's saying that women have power. And that's pretty remarkable for the time of its creation. Sure, a lot of villains are female, but so are a lot of heroes. A lot of the people who are smart, cunning, and powerful (that is to say, like Odysseus) are female. Athena, for crying out loud (who obviously was already created, but her inclusion in the story speaks for itself)! And the women in the story know it. The double standard doesn't go unnoticed by women; Calypso thinks it's completely unfair. No doubt, the double standard existed in Greek society as it still exists today, but if Homer had agreed with it, he wouldn't allow women to fight against it. And Odysseus' attitude towards women isn't half bad (again, for his time). When Calypso is forced to release him, she asks why he doesn't want to stay. After all, she's much prettier than Penelope. Odysseus replies that he doesn't care about how pretty she is, Penelope in his wife, and he loves her immensely. He's saying that a woman's value doesn't come from her sex appeal. I'm reading The Odyssey for school, and I was honestly shocked at how much the author respects women, and how he shows that women have the ability to be as great as Odysseus, and I was equally shocked when I saw how much you disagreed,
+Alanna R. I always felt the same way. My teacher went off about him being with Calypso for years while Penelope fended off suitors, but I considered that he was forcibly held on her island and frequently raped. Yeah, some of the attitudes on gender are extremely dated, but that's to be expected on a work thousands of years old. I feel the work is actually a bit empowering of women for its time. Penelope shows her own cunning ability similar to Odysseus in that she weaves and unweaves a cloth for 20 years to keep the suitors at bay, and of course there is Athena. I always thought the love between Odysseus and Penelope was genuine.
There is a huge double standard of men being sexist towards women, specifically displayed in Agamemnon's warning to Odysseus. Agamemnon had a mistress, yet he despised his wife for not being loyal to him. Also, Kalypso doesn't care about power, but having a relationship with a mortal(Hermes' scolding Kalypso). Arete--the queen of Phaiakia, not the greek theme--is a great example of women having more power then men.
There was sexism on many places and I don't mind discussing that. I have a problem with "Patriarchy theory" that he uses which has so vague of a description, so useless as an idea that it makes an enemy from my bunny pet.
im pretty sure he was being sarcastic. he's said so many times that books belong to their readers, implying that what a reader gets out of a book is more important than the authors intentions, so i doubt john thinks that learning about the author is that important.
I think with Enders game it's important to keep in mind that the messages are coming from the mouth of an arsehole and not to take it too seriously. Still, an awesome series.
For an interesting read, some people may want to check out The Penelopiad by Margaret Atwood. It's a novel that was later turned into a play and tells the story of Penelope in Ithaca while Odysseus was gone. It's an interesting contemporary view of a classical text.
And the sexual double standard does exist, but not in the way you describe it! In ancient greek society, sex is a political act, especially for women. Odysseus wouldn't be killing Penelope for sleeping around, just as he isn't killing the handmaidens for sleeping around. He's killing the handmaidens for sleeping with *the suitors,* who were his major political rivals. Those handmaidens also spied on his wife, and did other political sabotage. And as mentioned in my other comment, the poem does not sanction Odysseus sleeping around. It expressly condemns it. And he does *not* "almost marry" Nausica! He rejects her with fantastic diplomacy, and inverts the expectation of the bucolic maiden/stranger scene. That said, I love crashcourse. You just got this one really, really wrong.
Mark Nahas Do you mean Homer or John? Because Homer goes into all sorts of double standards about sex, as seen in Agamemnon's speech to Odysseus, when he raves against his wife and hardly mentions the fact that it was his brother she was sleeping with, and (in most older greek depictions, not Aeschylus, which was later) it is his brother that actually kills him. The fact that he only cares about his wife's sexual infidelity, and not his brother's familial betrayal, is very telling. Because for women in the classical Greek world sex cannot be extracted from politics. Penelope could not sleep with the suitors without giving them her favor, yet Odysseus can sleep with Cerce without owing her any loyalty (this is echoed in Virgil's Aeneid in Book IV, when Aeneas can leave Dido and she suffers utter political defeat whereas he is politically unaffected). I don't think John mentions that, but I don't really want to rewatch the video to check because time, and also it was fairly frustrating. If you're asking about non-sexual double standards, you can see the double standard between generations - it is all well and good for Telemakus to try to emulate his Dad, but the instant he tries to string that bow Odysseus stops him. Because that would be a challenge. Yet Odysseus completely subordinated his own father, who didn't even get to name him. There's also the double standard between kings and their subjects: it is absolutely okay for Odysseus to let all of his men die: they disobeyed him, and he is clearly their superior. But when he disobeys the gods (who are clearly his superiors) they still can't just let him die, because he's Odysseus, and just more important. (Note also that Ithaca is one of the smallest kingdoms to throw in its weight on the side of the Greeks in the Trojan war. They brought something like 10 ships, while almost all the other captains brought between fifty and a hundred. Yet he's still a lord, and more important. What I'm saying is, it's to do with birth, not wealth.) I'm sure there are a bunch more I'm missing, but I don't want to have to put actual effort into this (because I'm lazy and you probably don't want more than that and I have deadlines I should be worrying about), so I'm gonna stop now. If you have any other questions feel free to ask though. I kind of love talking about the Odyssey.
Mark Nahas Actually in all fairness Cerce is a nymph/witch, so Odysseus' loyalty doesn't matter to her at all, and I have no idea what context would allow Odysseus to give it to her. Better example would be Calypso, since she explicitly asks him to stay and he says no. She then rants about how all the male gods get to keep their female sex slaves, but as soon as any of the female gods find a mortal they like they have to let him go. So that double standard exists more among the gods, implying that it exists more in general Greek society than in the idealized mortal world of Homer. In fact, Odysseus can't have sex with Nausicaa because if he did that would be giving political allegiance to her father and her land. So I suppose what I'm saying is, yes, the sexual double-standard of political loyalty exists, but much more heavily among the gods than the mortals - and I would go on to argue that that is Homer's critique of the general attitudes of Greek society (which were typified in the Iliad, which, as mentioned, the Odyssey is unwriting).
For people who want to read the whole thing themselves, I cannot recommend Emily Wilson's translation enough! It is very true to the text in that it is an epic poem with a consistent rhythm and the same number of lines as the original, and takes a fresh look at the actual meaning of the original words as opposed to layers of clichees that have accumulated through centuries of translations. It's very modern in that it uses everyday English that we can understand, just like the original used contemporary Greek that was easy enough to be passed on orally. It really captures the variety of styles and moods and characters so well! My favorite part of it might be Telemachus to the suitors: “Stop eating all my food!“ [breaks down crying], just because it shows so well how he is really a scared and angry teenager, nervous about speaking up in public and anxious to defend some notion of honor that his father never got to explain because he wasn't around. I found the idea of reading the entire Odyssee daunting, but this translation made it easy, enjoyable and very rewarding. And it includes an introduction and excellent translator's note as well.
Odysseus was a man of his time. Polygamy and/or concubinage was accepted then. Remember that Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon had multiple wives. Even Ramses II had more than 100 wives and mistresses. It was more of a man's world then than now. As for the slaughter of the suitors, remember that they ate his food, drank his wine, and trashed his house. They also plotted to kill Telemachus in a sea ambush on his return journey. What was he supposed to do? Say: "I'm back. You can go home now"? If they would plot to kill his son they would have had no problem killing him where he stood. The families of the suitors were egged on and led by Eupiethes, the father of the suitor Antinous. He allowed his son to make those depredations in Odysseus' palace and apparently forgot that many years before Odysseus protected him from vengeful victims of a piratical raid he committed on a neighboring island under Odysseus' rule. He is killed by Laertes, Odysseus' father.
David Harris no true. A lot of places in the ancient world allowed freedom for women. Athens Greece had bad views towards women. Spartina, Egypt ( most ancient Africa really) even Rome etc gave women a lot of rights.
What I took from this video: Things were never boring in ancient Greece and Troy is a surprisingly accurate film (compared to what I would have expected). What I took from the comments: A lot of men here think that women use sex to manipulate men, by withholding sex. Everyone who used the lock and key analogy in the comments was a man even though allegedly (stated by men) women are more likely to judge other women for sleeping around. So basically some men want women to jump into bed with them straight away but they want them to not do that for other men. OR you could just respect the fact that we have free will and its not all about you.
I actually stidy the Odyssey in school, so I was super happy when I saw that it was the first subject in the new crash course literature. You can also see the Odyssey as a story about moderation. The suitors were extreme when they pushed their hosts hospitality (bound by the rules of Xenia - Hospitality) but Telemachus was the opposite, refusing a gift from Nestor. Odysseus was very unfaithful while was his wife was etc. I'm glad to see a classic like this being discussed, especially since I'm informed enough to join in ;)
Fuck off, I want to go for my PhD and be a professor, and I'm an art history minor so my back-up plan is to work in a museum. Furthermore, there are a multitude of career options for classics majors-a lot of classics majors go into law or medicine because the terminology is all derived from Latin and Greek, a lot of rather famous authors were classics majors (J. K. Rowling, Tolkien, etc) had backgrounds in classics, and what the fuck do you think archaeologists major in? Do your research before you talk shit.
Even better in the original Greek. He gives his name as Οὖτίς, but when the cyclops yells that Οὖτίς has blinded him, the others hear "οὔτις" (the "noman" or "nobody" word) and when they respond that "If no man is attacking you, you must be ill; when Zeus makes people ill, there is no help for it, and you had better pray to your father Poseidon", the grammer is such that "οὔτις" becomes "μή τίς" which sounds a lot like μῆτις - metis, the skill or cunning that Odysseus was so well known for. It goes like this. What Polyphemus means: "This Otis guy is killing me!" What the other Cyclopes hear: "Nobody is killing me!" What the other Cyclopes say: "If nobody is killing you, suck it up." What Polyphemus hears: "If you've been outsmarted, suck it up."
Jesse Garrison Aha, I still need to read the Fagles translation, my old Ancient Greek professor Peter Green (no relation to John) raves about it. I still have the Lattimore edition.
oh no! someone mentioned a term that was generated by the feminisims! my limited understanding of it makes me believe it isn't a thing! Quick! flee before they steal all our testicles!
Holy fuck, the entire video is about The Odyssey, John talks about the Odyssey the whole time, and yet one mention of the word "Patriarchy" and the MRA crowd spams the comments so that they can pretend real people agree with them. ._.
Correctrix It's not off topic. The Odyssey itself is practically obsessed with sex and who's sleeping or has slept with who. The women Odysseus sleeps with are in some way supernatural, and even the most dangerous monsters are feminized and sexualized, particularly the Sirens who's power is literally to seduce men with their "irresistible" songs. When Odysseus cheats on his wife, he gets a pass because the women were exceptional/powerful. The book spends whole chapters on Penelope's life at home. The story invites us to like Penelope BECAUSE she is faithful to her husband, even after TWENTY YEARS of him being gone. Odysseus worries about her fidelity, and he's motivated to get home to her and their "special" marriage bed. Penelope has had to play hostess for a horde of men looking to "claim" her now that Odysseus is (supposedly) dead. And they refuse to leave, sitting in her house drinking and eating her food, no matter how much she refuses their proposals. Her husband is the only one who can finally get rid of them. All of these notions come from a patriarchal ideology, and the central conflicts of the story are direct results of the patriarchal society depicted. Seeing as how we in 2014 can recognize and empathize with these issues and motivations, I think John's tangent, at the very least, reminds us that The Odyssey is not antiquated or irrelevant, but also that we should make sure we continue to question our own society when it starts to look a little too much like this ancient patriarchal one.
our class is currently reading the graphic novel version, and me and this other kid are keeping a piece of paper counting how many people Odysseus has killed
If it's Not exactly like the "Original" then it's meaningless to do that.... They are probably added deaths invented specifically for the graphic novel "version"!! That's fine and all for entertainment but just don't forget there is a Real version from Ancient Times!!!
Socrates said it himself beautifully what a hero really is :"A man not pre-eminently virtuous and just, whose misfortune, however, is brought upon him not by vice and depravity but by some error of judgement,
I just finished reading Madeline Miller’s wonderful “Iliad” retelling, “Song of Achilles.” In it, she re-imagines and explores the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. I’m anxious to begin reading “Circe,” her take on “The Odyssey.”
Dear every person who is presenting an analogy in the comments that relates to certain parts of human anatomy: A vagina is not a lock and a penis is not and has never been a key. Just because a dude might be able to stick it in there and twirl it around a bit, that doesn't mean he's actually opening anything. Thank you. That is all.
The Lovely Warrior So, trying not to sound crass or flamebait here....but the title of the series is "Crash Course." so...yea, it's oversimplified. Think of it as an intro, "cliff notes," or jumping off point for further discussion and study.
Like John mentioned The Odyssey wasn't written but instead composed and sung before the aid of the alphabet. In fact those texts that were shown in the video are likely the original transcriptions of the poems which were done sometime in the sixth or seventh century BCE. This idea, that the greeks could compose literature without the written word was a controversial one when first proposed by Milman Parry, a structural linguist, in the 1930's. Parry studied the the meter and repetitive, redundant language proving that the structure of the poem was first and foremost an aid to memory the purpose of which was to ferry the strongest memes of culture across generations. (Ironically we would have lost the poem and the culture there in if it hadn't been written down... yay information technology!)
we still have these singsong as ballads in many cultures/religions/traditions and sometimes we do write them down later because music was composed orally in ancient times. hence the oral tradition
I'd also like to add to all the fantastic things you say that Homeric Greek isn't just about stock epithets and formulae that are easy to remember, it's also a mix of loads of different Greek dialects from different points in history: there are Doric, Ionic and Aeolic words all side by side, and probably *because* they're formulaic and fit in with the metre. And not long after Parry's thesis came out, he went with Albert Lord to what was Yugoslavia to find out about oral poets there (like Hakirat mentions) and how similar they were to Homer. (Also, I'm not sure all those texts were original transcripts: they're probably mediaeval manuscripts because they've got lowercase letters and accents which hadn't been invented back when the Homeric epics were first written down.)
Actually the library was burned several times by native Egyptians, rival Greek/Macedonians, Romans, Christians, and Muslims if one believes all the stories. The poor building was not treated well.
Waltham1892 He made several, but the one I think you are referring to closed the Serapium. It was a focus of pagan worship which is what interested him, but it was also the largest of the surviving daughter collection of the Library of Alexandria. Some, who define the library as the collection, see one as a continuation of the other, and so the loss of the smaller is the technical end of the greater.
Nonamearisto Why did you put the word patriarchy in quotes ? Are you denying that ancient Greek society was male dominated ? Because that would be idiotic. Than again you probably think Reagan was a good president.
I always loved the Odyssey; both in High School English and the movie. To me it was one of the ultimate journey epics. Like LotR, it's just a very very long journey with a penultimate goal of returning home, but with fun little adventures and trials along the way.
Great to have this back! John doesn't really seem as excited about it as he was about history though. I loved the bit on cycles of violence. People need to calm down that he mentioned the patriarchy. Solid video.
I don't know man, we're reading this in my French class, and part of it that came up a lot that you didn't really touch on is that Odysseus knows he is a hero, it's one of the most important things about him. And when he blinds Polyphemus, he is "Nobody", but a hero is a somebody. So when he blinds the cyclops, it's this really heroic feat, and the reason he starts taunting Polyphemus after is because he thinks his name will be forgotten, that the man who blinded the great Polyphemus will forever be Nobody. And he hasn't come to terms with the war being over yet, that his greatest exploits are behind him. So what gets Odysseus cursed is his hubris, but it's also his fear of being forgotten, of no longer being a hero, of being a Someone
I was hoping to hear more about the actual story (in depth, maybe divided into 2 videos). I was really hoping to learn 'Literature.' (12 min. and John almost doesn't mention Telemachus, who is the center of this part of the story, forced to grow from a boy to a man, wanting to know if his father Homer is still alive or dead, etc.) In Gatsby, John talks about the use of yellow and its meaning, the green light across the water, the glasses representing the ever-watching (albeit aloof) eyes of God. I hope the other Crash Course Literature videos cover more of these type of topics... (>_
I agree. While discussing misogyny in an obviously misogynist work is important, John leaves other important themes like the search for identity, the concept of home or the difficulty of reestablishing and reinventing old relations untouched. I vote for a second part!
When it comes to sleeping around, you have to think about heirs. If a man sleeps around you can be pretty sure that the one who gives birth isn't his actual wife, therefore no inheritance issues. If a woman sleeps around, well, how are you to know it's actually the man's child & heir? You could be handing your kingdom over to the son of another ruler or something. Who'd want to marry their son into a kingdom where he can't be sure if his kids are his own? It'd be a diplomatic annoyance to say the least, could ruin all sorts of alliances in a time when things often revolved around personal relationship between rulers. As for why it happens with the common folk, well, people usually try to emulate their social superiors, hence fashions and what not. Also, I don't really agree with this as a criticism of Oddyseus at all, he was sort of forced into those situations.
If you look at cultures where their beliefs about conception are incorrect or where they have different attitudes to inheritance/fatherhood, such as the Trobriands, you often find that the women are a lot more sexually free than people in other parts of the world used to be. I think that they believed that the child was developed through repeated sex between two individuals, so as long as the husband is sleeping with is wife the most, its k. (this is old knowledge so it may be a bit dusty in areas) There was one culture, though I can't remember the name, where they believed that the child's father was determined by the dreams of the one the wife loves. Therefore she can have sex as much as she wants, as only her husbands dreams can create the child. So really, I think that the traditional double standard has a lot to do with inheritance laws.
Context as to why that mindset developed does not forgive the fact that today, where it is no longer an issue to worry about, it still persists and is a driving force in the subjugation of women the world around. John's Open Letter wasn't so much a damnation of Odysseus. Look again at the opening line "Open Letter to the Patriarchy, How are you so resilient?" He used this story that is drenched in ancient mindsets to call attention to flaws in the today's world - which is, to me. one of the more nobler aspects of literary analysis.
Dues ex in old stories alwayse makes me smirk. It's comforting to see it sometimes, like watching an old movie, and knowing the lines by heart. It has it's place, though it is trite. I am curious as to your claim that bards only told the middle bits of stories though.
CarpeMetus Well, if they were traveling around between groups of people, it would give them the best impression of you if you told them the best bits of the story. Also, it's more likely that if you were to start at the beginning that by the time you or they had to leave you wouldn't of got to the end, so it has less detail.
This video looks a bit shallow. Odyssey is so rich in metaphors and symbolisms. It would be more interesting to identify and analyse some of them. I felt like watching a Hollywood movie eating pop-corn.
I greatly appreciated the lesson. Most importantly to me, you seemed to make the point that even a story as old as the Odyssey has bearing on today, that there is value in every story regardless of its age or origin. The only thing I would have liked to see more of was how feminine heroes play into the patriarchy. The fidelity of Penelope was one which you touched on but I'm interested in what values you seen in someone like Athena and what bearing they have on Greek women. Thanks for great UA-cam content!
I wouldn't say that Odysseus "hardly appears" in the Iliad. Yes, that poem does not revolve around him but actually, his invention, the Trojan horse, is portrayed as a decisive contribution that determined the outcome of the siege of Troy in favour of the Greeks. And Odysseus himself is portrayed in a rather positive light throughout the Iliad as well (from the Greeks' perspective, admittedly) both as a fighter and as strategist who comes up with solutions to problems and helps resolve conflicts. However, it is true that sneaking up on sleeping Trojans and slaughtering them is not a noble act but there are not a lot of truly noble things about war.
I actually found that to be the opposite.* For the majority of the Iliad, Odysseus isn't really portrayed as a nice guy. He is portrayed as very cunning and loyal to the cause, and there are scenes (such as the one where he visits Achilles to try and convince him to join the war) where he seems like a decent human being, but on the whole I found that in the Iliad he was portrayed almost like a bully. Also, the whole trojan horse thing was not part of the Iliad. *please keep in mind that I am not trying to say that your opinion is wrong, I just interpreted the story differently.
Speaking as a Classicist, funnily enough, it seems like the standard poetic tradition *was* to portray Odysseus as a five-star [...]bag. One story about the inspiration for the Odyssey was Odysseus' ghost offering his story to Homer, on the condition that his arch-rival Philoctetes wasn't mentioned at all - hence his absence. Basically, Odysseus wasn't such a nice guy in the lost poems of the Epic Cycle (and let's face it, he isn't great even in the Odyssey.). Another competing version of the night-raid in Book X of the Iliad portrays Odysseus as trying to kill Diomedes to make of with the treasure as they make their way back to camp, but Diomedes sees Odysseus' shadow, and realising what he's trying to do, confronts him and frog-marches Odysseus back to camp. Generally speaking, Odysseus was still πολυμηχανος (cunning), but he was also a back-stabbing, manipulative egotist according to what we know of other traditions. Another thing to consider is how much of the Odyssey is told through Odysseus' own perspective - Books 9-11 are almost entirely in direct speech, which some scholars have taken as implying that Odysseus is actually making the whole thing up (or at least exaggerating.). This would account for how these books differ markedly from the latter half of the epic in terms of the role of fantasy elements - by contrast, Books 13 onwards (after around 13.150) contain very little in terms of the supernatural (just the occasional divine intervention.). In fact, it's possbile that Odysseus' "lies" about his mundane travels around Crete actually represent an earlier Odyssey - the "real" one - and the poet of the Odyssey composed our version in order to create a more exciting νοστος (homecoming-story) for Odysseus. Long-story short, the Odyssey was made up by Odysseus to cover up his boring journey home and to explain how he lost all of his men ("Killed in divine retribution" sounds a lot better than for Odysseus than "we were kidnapped by Phoenician pirates".). So yeah, your interpretation is pretty much exactly what we see in the rest of the Trojan Cycle's tradition.
Here is the story of ΚΙΡΚΗ (Circe), as it was meant to be read and understood. ...Odysseus takes a look at his companions. They are all men forged in violence and turmoil; barefoot, their skin covered in blisters, malnourished, crude and impatient to get back to their wives and children. All they want is to have a warm homemade meal, drink wine and feast with friends and loved ones. Above all, they miss the tender touch of a woman. A kiss, a whisper, making love. They Lust - They Hunger - For a woman's touch. They are all at their prime. Strong, battle hardened warriors. Suddenly, they spot Circe's island on the horizon. They land on the beach, and set out to find food and water, when they are suddenly confronted by Circe herself! What a sight she is! WHAT BEAUTY! She HAS to be a witch! A sorceress! As Circe approaches the sailors, the earth seems to crumble under her feet. Circe tells the men to follow her - and how could they refuse! They are overwhelmed. The song of the birds. The exotic fruits. And above all, Circe's beauty! After a while, they reach Circe's palace, where they find clean linen, fresh fish, meat, and the sweetest wine! Ultimately, everyone falls under Circe's spell. The men feast until their guts are full. Now they turn their gaze upon Circe. Circe, also a woman in lust, sees the desire of the men, and welcomes them all in her bedroom. But the men are crude, clumsy, they seek to quench their own desire rather than satisfy Circe. Circe is insatiable - a beautiful woman that hasn't experienced the touch of a man for so long...Circe is begging to experience ecstasy! Surely we can only imagine the psychological effect such a drastic change must have had upon the men. From Troy, to battling against the elements at sea. Struggling to stay alive against great odds. Now, at the halls of Circe's palace. Feasting on the finest wine and meat they have ever tasted. Their lust fulfilled by a woman they could only dream of holding in their arms. Odysseus' companions slowly sink in a hedonistic fever. They forget everything. They forget Odysseus, the journey to Ithaca, their homes and their loved ones. To put it bluntly, they only have two things on their minds: Fucking and Eating! By the Gods! They are no better than pigs! Night becomes day. Day becomes night...Odysseus finally decides to leave the ship and look for his companions. Odysseus finds Circe's palace, enters the halls, and sees his companions growl for more food and wine, crawling on Circe's feet. Odysseus is overwhelmed with anger and, at first, he thinks "I should whip, and then drag every last one of these pathetic bastard dogs from his feet, back to the ship!". But Odysseus is smarter than that. He knows that Circe has turned his men into animals; into pigs! He is greatly outnumbered, and he knows full well that there is no way to convince his men to leave this paradise and resume their journey to Ithaca. Odysseus is indeed very good at finding ways to get what he wants without resorting to violence. After all, his patron and protector is Athena, the goddess of Wisdom. So, Odysseus decides to join the feast alongside his companions. "BY THE GODS!" Odysseus screams. "What a feast!". "How dare you not invite me! How dare you keep all that wine for yourselves, you damn scoundrels!". "And Circe! So beautiful!" "WELCOME ODYSSEUS!" His companions reply! "We're glad you finally decided to join us! - EAT! DRINK!". But Odysseus has something else in mind. He approaches Circe, takes her hand, and leads her to her bedroom. Until now, Circe had only experienced the crude, selfish ways of his companions, who barely satisfied her carnal lust. Odysseus is different. He is a King. He sees and understands things his companions cannot. He sees Circe's beauty, but he also understands her intellect. There is no beauty without intellect after all. Circe is now - for the first time - seduced by a man. Odysseus is not a mere plaything like his companions were in Circe's bedroom. Odysseus knows how to seduce, how to make love, how to fuck. He knows what to say, and when. He knows what to do, and how. Circe, is defenseless. She falls in love with Odysseus, and completely surrenders to his will. Weeks pass, and Circe, now infatuated with Odysseus starts to neglect the others. Only Odysseus is now allowed in Circe's bedroom. The men, slowly regain their senses from their drunken stupor, and turn from animals (pigs) to human again. They finally turn to Odysseus and say "Our King, there is nothing for us here anymore, time to stock up on supplies and get back on our ship. We have to resume our journey. Our families and loved ones are waiting for us. We have to return to Ithaca!". To this Odysseus replies. "You are right! It was foolish of us to waste time in this island! Let us prepare everything for our journey to Ithaca!" And so Circe's spell is broken, and the journey resumes...
+DTinaglia Studios Yeah, let's boil down an entire human being with complex emotions and traits to a simple object like a lock or a key. Awesome. Maybe if we valued people and used things, rather than use people and value things, the world would be a *wee bit better*.
Tonight, I hang my head in shame after reading the comments below. John, you might need to address the open letter separately, as it seems very few seem to understand it.
"Achilles didn't get to go home" - I'm not sure this is quite right. Achilles had every opportunity to go home, and that's exactly what he planned to do, as he told the embassy in book 9. He spoke of exactly that choice, of dying in battle and achieving κλέος or going home and living a long life, and he chose the latter. So, yes, he did go for glory in the end, but I don't think it's as straightforward as Achilles in the Iliad being all about κλέος, as he outright rejects going back into battle, at least until Patroclus is killed by Hector.
"To love a book you have to know about the author" (paraphrasing) That's an interesting statement. It's an issue I've wrestled with before. If you don't like the author, are his/her books tainted? Everyone has to consider that question. To me, if the author's actions/beliefs are so against my own sense of right and wrong then the answer is yes. I can accept some disagreement, but there are limits. If someone else has a different opinion, I won't argue. It's a matter of taste.
John was kidding. He's stated multiple times that he doesn't believe authorial intent is important, and that books belong to their readers, not to the people who write them. You bring up really interesting points about the author's personality tainting their work. In my opinion, it's something to be mindful of, but I can divorce the idea of the creator from the art (or literature) itself. For instance, Richard Wagner was a deplorable person (he was very public and completely unapologetic about the affairs he had with his friends' wives, and he was horribly anti-semitic), but I still enjoy his operas. I suppose it would be harder to separate the creator from the creation when talking about artists and authors who are still living, since buying or viewing their work would help fund them.
No mention of Telemachus? I mean, nearly a third of the story revolves around him and his mother while they're waiting for Odysseus to make it home. Seems like that would be important. And certain to show up on a test about the Odyssey, so you may want to look that up.
last day of finals tomorrow, your videos have helped me so much throughout this school year, not even just English but with hon biology & AP history too. Thank you!
The Odyssey is long, complicated, and sometimes the characters tend to take the long route to solving problems, but it still was an incredibly enjoyable read. I thought the characters were interesting, the plot was satisfying, and yes, looking at this epic through a modern eye, you do see the period-typical sexism and beliefs that wouldn't register as very heroic today, but then said, this text is thousands of years old. Odysseus wasn't an adulterer, he was forced to sleep with Calypso and Circe. And yes, while those two nymphs aren't exactly supposed to be specifically heroic, they are women with power, which is incredible for that time. I also thought it was as much about Telemachus as it was about Odysseus. The first four books specifically zero in on his quest to learn a both what happened to his dad, and the end is about them working together to kill the suitors. All in all, this was really fun and interesting to read, and Penelope really just gets the short end of the stick the entire time.
Women are not locks, men are not keys, we are all PEOPLE that have try to come together and to complete one another. Men and women don't have to be enemies and in constant opposition, the success of women does not mean the downfall of men.
so many angry manchildren on the internet see the equality of sexes as a zero-sum game and i have never understood that. same thing with racists; they think that for another minority, or otherwised historically marginalized group to gain rights, they must lose them. I have literally never understood that.
This is a very, very simplistic analysis of one of the world's greatest and most complex works of art, by someone who seems to not like the epic at all. I could go through and contradict the video point by point, but who has time for that. Let me just say that it's rather unfair to judge Odysseus by today's moral standards. If you want to have a discussion about the moral shortcomings of the Greeks, or even Homer himself in comparison to today, have at it, but none of that is any fault of Odysseus, especially if you actually read the text.
+Ken Troklus There's nothing wrong with forming an opinion on a work of art. There is a genre of story in Japan where lesbian women are "empowered" by being raped straight. Just because the author believes something about it doesn't mean you also can't have an opinion about the story that exists in concert with that intent. John is very clear on what parts are his interpretation and what Homer (or, the ancient greeks in general) intended to portray based on their values. If you believe there is no relationship between storyteller and audience, that art is non-transformative and that works are never subject to interpretation that means you have always relied on another source to give you your opinions on a story. Which, frankly, means they are not your own independent thoughts and we wouldn't want to hear them anyway, so thanks for not sharing.
There is blatant sexism in the poem, but using the idea that some of the monsters are female as evidence of further sexism is lame. If all the monsters in the poem were female then he would have a point, but that's not the case. Odysseus has to defeat monsters in the poem, and just like in life, some are male and some are female, what is sexist about it? This kind of desperate miscatagorization of sexism is really messing things up for our society. By conditioning people to strain their eyes and see oppression where it is not there you are making them live in a world that they see as much worse than it is. If a young woman falsely thinks that the society she is in is completely against her how much happiness can she be capable of achieving? How can she have the trust in others she would need to live a healthy life? And most importantly, if she incorrectly assumes that a "patriarchy" exists to oppress her what drive could she possibly posses to innovate or create?
Roman Fox What could potentially be called sexism would be the notion that "I'm Odysseus the man. I can screw around with as many women as I like, and as long as I still love my wife in my heart it's ok... but if she touches another man I'll kill the cheating whore".
Yikes. Not the discussion in the comments I've come to expect from Crash Course viewers. We're all intelligent people here; is it really that hard to accept that women and men should be held to the same standard?
When John said that next time he will discuss a story filled with sex and violence for a moment there I though he was talking about Game of Thrones. XD
its funny how one story can be interpretted different ways. i always liked odysseus because he was very smart, loyal to his wife even after all hed been through, got revenge on unfaithful people, and even had a faithful doggo
The Odyssey is a work of literature. It is mythology. It is not a history. It is reflection of the culture of the time and place. Odysseus was a flawed human being by our standards. I think he reflected the idea that humans are pawns of the gods.
This is me wondering if anybody else just watches these for pleasure and not to get out of reading for a class.......
i watch them for fun :}
Don't need them -- but they're entertaining
i watched it because i love ancient greece
I've been out of school for years, and I really enjoy the CC series 😊
Me! Last night I randomly decided to marathon a bunch of these and some TED-Ed videos because I kept finding one that looked interesting XD
I’m just gonna leave my Epic the Musical comment here now… 👀
Took ten years to complete a trip that should've taken two weeks.
Still 4x more efficient than the Hebrews.
+David Yaconis Random Hebrew: Moses! Hey Moses! Moses, are we there yet? Moses: NO! You've been asking that for 39 years! stop asking!
The Hebrews were delayed due the God not allowing any generation who had left Egypt for the promise land to actually SEE the promise land, not till the last one died get they get there, Moses didn't even see the land of milk and honey
+David Yaconis um dude Odesseus had to go through a long journey cuz he got lost at sea cyclops ate his crew and he has to go threw monsters and he was so close one time to getting home but the wind strating to get harsh and the ship flew all the way to another place
David Yaconis At least the Hebrews got to survive and reach their land. All of Odysseus' crew get killed and Odysseus' barely survives Charybdis.
Wayne Cronin they really didn't. it took generations for the hebrews to get from egypt to the promise land. almost none of the original freed slaves were alive.
I'd just like to point out that Odysseus' sleeping around was necessary for his survival. If a powerful goddess like Circe or Calypso wants to have sex with you, you don't have much choice. If you reject them, it could spell doom for you, or your loved ones. Horny gods punishing mortals for denying them sex is a recurring theme throughout Classical Mythology.
*Odysseus blinds cyclops
"Noman is hurting me, noman is hurting me"
a BLINDINGLY good pun
" noman is hurting me!"
"noman is killing me"
lmao that part was hilarious
heheheheehehehhehehehhehheheeehhhhheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It actually happened
Some fun Odyssey notes:
Circe doesn't give directions to Ithica after Helios' island, implying that she's well aware of how the journey will go.
Odysseus has been gone for 20 years, and beyond that his wife has remained totally faithful before the advances of somewhere around 100 men over the last 3, but he still decides to observe and judge her in disguise. The only reason he doesn't immediately reveal himself to his son is because he's worried about word getting back to Penelope.
The people that finally deliver Odysseus to his homeland are turned to stone by Poseidon for their troubles, and the only thing that stops him from wiping out their city entirely is Zeus going "c'mon, man, tone it down a bit."
>Odysseus is literally made Calypso's stud
>Forced to have hot divine sex every day for seven years
>Calypso asking him every day to live as an immortal with her
>Odysseus STILL wants to go back to Ithaca and Penelope
>He goes to the water and cries every day looking out towards Ithaca
Odysseus' devotion to his wife and people is superhuman, that's why he's the hero.
some nice piece of information I found on the web
THE LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA *cries for six years*
SAME MY HEART FELL ON THE FLOOR WHEN HE MENTIONED IT
i see u johanna
Excuse me, who are you?
a supernatural trippy illusion
Don't try to fool us. You are obviously a diamond.
One time in like fourth grade my teachers were reading the Odyssey aloud while the class illustrated it, and right before the slaying of the suitors, the teacher, Daniel, Looks at the class and says, "Ok kids, sharpen up your red pencils."
The Odyssey is Homer un-writing the Iliad. When Odysseus raids, cheats, and behaves generally like a Iliadic hero he is at his weakest (and at the beginning of his odyssey). By the end he refuses to cheat on his wife with the incredible fantastic Nausica, he shows almost inhuman patience and self-control in the face of the suitors' abuse, and he choses nostos over kleos, the choice Achilles couldn't stand to make. What's more, Achilles himself discredits the entire premise of the Iliad when Odysseus sees him down in the land of the dead, by saying that "it is better to be the lowest slave than king among all the unnumbered dead."
And he doesn't "lie to everyone he knows." His Cretan narratives are really important, non-violent defenses against a situation similar to Agamemnon and Clytemnestra.
So even Odysseus, who is wise enough to be praised by Athena for his wisdom, loses himself in war. Does that say something about our attraction to war?
"I hate you, best wishes, John Green" *mind explodes*
The Odd At Sea.
I just noticed that...
wow oh.
"You can tell I'm an English teacher because I'm wearing a sweater, but you can tell I'm an English teacher who wants to be your friend because I'm wearing awesome sneakers."
It's hilarious to me because that is actually my thought process when I talk to my teachers. I'm like, "Hey, I don't know if you're just putting on that friendly face as an act for the class or - oh! You're wearing converse. You must be legit."
I don't understand why people are complaining. This is CRASHCOURSE, of course a couple of minutes is not enough to cover all the themes to discuss.
And John is entitled to his opinion on patriarchy. All the objections to it just go to show how entrenched this idea is.
The idea that the patriarchy exists any more is neofeminist bullshit. It was smashed a long time ago - before John was even born. The reason people are upset is because he completely blindsides the viewers with this. I watched this video not because I wanted to get false accusations of double standards thrown in my face, but because I wanted to see another person's opinion on the Odyssey.
John is a scholar, or should be. He shouldn't be talking about a patriarchy existing /today/ if he was doing his homework instead of falling prey to yellow journalism and sensationalism. His brother did the same shit a while back, and the Internet Aristocrat (just going to plug him here, since he's a well-learned man who doesn't fall into these trappings) tore him a new one.
I get the idea. I know that women have things they have to put up with as well, but boiling down a complex issue down to "It's the mens fault!" is like boiling down the problems with the American healthcare system to "It's not socialized!". I'm severely disappointed in John Green, but I mean no ill will with what I right. I know he's lurking these comments, and wholeheartedly wish he would take what I'm saying to mind. Don't push political agendas down our throats if you don't know both sides of the equation. It's like trying to explain how partial fraction decomposition works without teaching people how to turn it into matrices.
***** If someone is rewriting history because of crotch politics you can't help them. They think because feminism points out its usually upper class men in power that makes them the bad guys. So than they get pissed off because they're just regular dudes who have no power.
You could tell them, "Hey in ancient times women weren't allowed to be actresses only men could preform on stage, and they'd twist it around and go, "SEE! MEN WERE DANCING AROUND FOR WOMEN'S ENTERTAINMENT WHILE WOMEN JUST SAT IN THE AUDIENCE AND DID NOTHING!!!"
***** It's hard to tread your waters because it seems pretty anecdotal. Do women REALLY have to show why she's worthy in an argument? Using rape as a topic of patriarchy is pretty shaky at best. Both men and women suffer rape (although I will say that women are the majority, for fairly obvious reasons) and feel severe emotional distress afterward. Both have unfair double standards placed on them afterward (Women: Why did you dress like that?!?! Men: What, you didn't like it bro?!?!). There are a lot of disgusting plays in a defense lawyer's handbook for all cases. It's not patriarchy.
I reiterate my point from earlier to your second paragraph.
I would like to say there's a HUGE difference between a patriarchal society and a sexist society. Patriarchal societies give distinct benefits to men, by men and usually actively promoted these benefits and ideas. Sexist societies are just what they are; sexist, in any sort of obvious way. We're probably the latter.
No one mentions the sexism in any pre-19th century books, because, well, WE KNOW. We all know that sexism and especially patriarchal societies were the dominant force and we all know where this occurs within the book. It's not hard to realize that every woman Odysseus meets either wants to fuck him or is waiting to BE fucked by him. If you want to go full Anita Sarkeesian on modern media, be my guest, but there are plenty o' refutations for her. Plenty.
Feminism isn't about playing fair. It's boogeyman strawman bullshit that paints males as either spineless worms or devilish demons out to keep women down.
It is a conspiracy theory down to its heart. Modern feminism is basically the same as people who blame Obama for all of our problems. Everyone gets shafted by people with more money, but feminists complain the loudest about because their ancestors were oppressed (and even then, most women at the time didn't give a rat's ass. They knew the role they played in the survival of the species, and they knew the role that men played. Until the 1900's, there weren't any appealing jobs that women would want to fight for, so they were perfectly content with a patriarchy.)
The patriarchy part is ridiculed, here as it is in general, because its a ridiculous myopic notion. Hes entitled to opinions, but not exempt from the laughter of unfounded ones.
A side note on the open letter: there's actually a theory about this among sociologists that says property was the initial reason for this double standard. In order for a man to pass down his property rights, he had to know who his child was. He couldn't do this if he couldn't guarantee he was the only person sleeping with the woman who claimed to be carrying his child. This wasn't a problem for women, because they gave birth, so they would know which children were theirs. It doesn't make things right, but it's a theory about why men needed to control women's sex lives.
Nice video, but... I dont understand why you see everything with modern logic. This epos was written almost 2800 years ago. They had other morals, habits, traditions. You pay attention to all the murders, misogynism etc when there are tons of other amazing points in the story. To the people who watched the video, i recommend reading both the Iliad and Oddysey. They are both unique and amazing, theres nothing else similar to them.
P.S. The Trojan Horse is NOT in the Iliad! Its in Aeneid, an epic poem by Virgilius.
He does bring up that it was in another time period, though. I think it is fair to look back on it from a modern viewpoint in a lot of respects, especially when comparing our culture of today to that of the Odyssey and Iliad.
Then I refer you to Cyrus's bill of human rights...
I think morality is "absolute", and not relative. Illiad and Odysseus are an encyclopedia acquired skills for a Greek as to how to live their lives based on immorality; a daily Greek routine.
I don’t think it is inherently wrong to appraise an ancient work through a modern lens. No one can be entirely objective while reading a piece a literature. Neither should that be the purpose of reading.
Please don't ever stop making literature videos, because we don't have English literature in high school in where I live and I want to study it so bad, even if my English is really not good
Oh the burning of the Library of Alexandria, how many volumes of man have been forever lost! It still makes me sad whenever I am reminded of it
"It's a blindingly good pun"... I see what you did there... OH CRAP, I just made a pun! D:
In which John Green teaches you about Homer's Odyssey. If it was Homer's. If Homer was even real. Anyway, that stuff doesn't really matter. John teaches you the classic, by which I mean classical, epic poem, the Odyssey. The Journey of Odysseus as he made his way home after the conclusion of the Trojan War is the stuff of legend. Literally. John will teach you about the double standard in Greek culture, Odysseus as jerk/hero, ancient PTSD, and cycles of violence. Also, there are no yogurt jokes. So think of that as a gift.
Our Subbable lead sponsor this week is Damian Shaw, who wants to thank Bryonie, Stew, Maureen, Peter & Morgan for their support.
Our Subbable co-sponsors are:
Max Loutzenheiser
Katy Cocco
A Long and Difficult Journey, or The Odyssey: Crash Course Literature 201
Nonamearisto
Big deal.
Quit bitching.
Nonamearisto So, criticising a man who cheats on his wife and then murders all of his maids for having had sex makes him leftist? That says more about you than it does John Green.
Nonamearisto Except that that's not what it was. They fucked some suitors. Have you read the story, or is every woman who has sex a nazi in your mind?
Deshara I don't think that is nonamearisto's point. I think he's chafing at the overly simplistic analysis of the poem that John gives. I do however also reject his characterization of this analysis as 'radical left-wing' as overly simplistic. I would characterize it more as 'present-centric,' which is surprising given that John has done countless Crash Course History videos. As to the hanging of the maids, that was just what you did in those days to anyone who fraternized with the enemy, male or female. Notice that even the 'nice' suitors (Amphinomous being a prime example) end up dead. This is my main problem with the analysis. John's 3 main points ('The Odyssey is sexist', 'The Odyssey is violent' and 'Odysseus is an asshole') are so painfully obvious I don't really need a 12-minute video to explain them to me. John could have done a far better job by acknowledging these obvious parts and then delving into the nuances. The Odyssey not as sexist or violent as it first appears, nor is Odysseus as much of an asshole as he first appears.
Hey John you are fucking awesome man, thanks for the crash courses
I wonder if Captain Jack Sparrow was inspired by Odysseus
"I HATE YOU. ... Best wishes."
May or may not have giggled a lot.
Never pray for ill will to your enemies.
Syamil Atsari Sujud There was no prayer. SO.... what are you talking about?
50% of the comments on this video are telling me the patriarchy is over and the other 50% of the comments are telling me I'm some kind of busted door lock because I enjoy the completely natural biological function of sex, while men who enjoy sex get to strut around stroking their magical master keys or whatever. When really, 100% of people should be holding hands and weeping about Odysseus's dog waiting faithfully for 20+ years and dying when he sees his master has returned. omg I love heartbreaking dog stories more than I love the natural biological function of sex which is really saying something. Remember that part in Homeward Bound where you think the golden retriever died but then he finally appears limping home to greet the oldest kid in the family????? tears.
I totally disagree with the idea of the Odyssey being sexist (for its time. Don't get me wrong, if it was written today I would consider it to be a misogynistic horror). It's not saying that women should be feared: it's saying that women have power. And that's pretty remarkable for the time of its creation.
Sure, a lot of villains are female, but so are a lot of heroes. A lot of the people who are smart, cunning, and powerful (that is to say, like Odysseus) are female. Athena, for crying out loud (who obviously was already created, but her inclusion in the story speaks for itself)! And the women in the story know it. The double standard doesn't go unnoticed by women; Calypso thinks it's completely unfair. No doubt, the double standard existed in Greek society as it still exists today, but if Homer had agreed with it, he wouldn't allow women to fight against it.
And Odysseus' attitude towards women isn't half bad (again, for his time). When Calypso is forced to release him, she asks why he doesn't want to stay. After all, she's much prettier than Penelope. Odysseus replies that he doesn't care about how pretty she is, Penelope in his wife, and he loves her immensely. He's saying that a woman's value doesn't come from her sex appeal.
I'm reading The Odyssey for school, and I was honestly shocked at how much the author respects women, and how he shows that women have the ability to be as great as Odysseus, and I was equally shocked when I saw how much you disagreed,
+Alanna R. i think you should reread it
+Alanna R. I always felt the same way. My teacher went off about him being with Calypso for years while Penelope fended off suitors, but I considered that he was forcibly held on her island and frequently raped. Yeah, some of the attitudes on gender are extremely dated, but that's to be expected on a work thousands of years old. I feel the work is actually a bit empowering of women for its time. Penelope shows her own cunning ability similar to Odysseus in that she weaves and unweaves a cloth for 20 years to keep the suitors at bay, and of course there is Athena. I always thought the love between Odysseus and Penelope was genuine.
There is a huge double standard of men being sexist towards women, specifically displayed in Agamemnon's warning to Odysseus. Agamemnon had a mistress, yet he despised his wife for not being loyal to him. Also, Kalypso doesn't care about power, but having a relationship with a mortal(Hermes' scolding Kalypso). Arete--the queen of Phaiakia, not the greek theme--is a great example of women having more power then men.
***** No, John has a point. I just disagree.
There was sexism on many places and I don't mind discussing that. I have a problem with "Patriarchy theory" that he uses which has so vague of a description, so useless as an idea that it makes an enemy from my bunny pet.
"can't enjoy a book unless you know about the author".
i disagree. ender's game is much better when you know nothing about orson scott card.
And for some great authors, like Shakespeare and Homer, finding out about them isn't an option, doesn't make them any less great
im pretty sure he was being sarcastic. he's said so many times that books belong to their readers, implying that what a reader gets out of a book is more important than the authors intentions, so i doubt john thinks that learning about the author is that important.
Abdulkarim Elnaas enjoy that little trip, did we?
same with 1984 and animal farm.
I think with Enders game it's important to keep in mind that the messages are coming from the mouth of an arsehole and not to take it too seriously. Still, an awesome series.
For an interesting read, some people may want to check out The Penelopiad by Margaret Atwood. It's a novel that was later turned into a play and tells the story of Penelope in Ithaca while Odysseus was gone. It's an interesting contemporary view of a classical text.
And the sexual double standard does exist, but not in the way you describe it! In ancient greek society, sex is a political act, especially for women. Odysseus wouldn't be killing Penelope for sleeping around, just as he isn't killing the handmaidens for sleeping around. He's killing the handmaidens for sleeping with *the suitors,* who were his major political rivals. Those handmaidens also spied on his wife, and did other political sabotage.
And as mentioned in my other comment, the poem does not sanction Odysseus sleeping around. It expressly condemns it. And he does *not* "almost marry" Nausica! He rejects her with fantastic diplomacy, and inverts the expectation of the bucolic maiden/stranger scene.
That said, I love crashcourse. You just got this one really, really wrong.
hey sara :), can you please tell me the other double-standard that he mentions apart from the sexual one? please, i have an exam tomorrow.
Mark Nahas Do you mean Homer or John? Because Homer goes into all sorts of double standards about sex, as seen in Agamemnon's speech to Odysseus, when he raves against his wife and hardly mentions the fact that it was his brother she was sleeping with, and (in most older greek depictions, not Aeschylus, which was later) it is his brother that actually kills him. The fact that he only cares about his wife's sexual infidelity, and not his brother's familial betrayal, is very telling. Because for women in the classical Greek world sex cannot be extracted from politics. Penelope could not sleep with the suitors without giving them her favor, yet Odysseus can sleep with Cerce without owing her any loyalty (this is echoed in Virgil's Aeneid in Book IV, when Aeneas can leave Dido and she suffers utter political defeat whereas he is politically unaffected).
I don't think John mentions that, but I don't really want to rewatch the video to check because time, and also it was fairly frustrating.
If you're asking about non-sexual double standards, you can see the double standard between generations - it is all well and good for Telemakus to try to emulate his Dad, but the instant he tries to string that bow Odysseus stops him. Because that would be a challenge. Yet Odysseus completely subordinated his own father, who didn't even get to name him. There's also the double standard between kings and their subjects: it is absolutely okay for Odysseus to let all of his men die: they disobeyed him, and he is clearly their superior. But when he disobeys the gods (who are clearly his superiors) they still can't just let him die, because he's Odysseus, and just more important. (Note also that Ithaca is one of the smallest kingdoms to throw in its weight on the side of the Greeks in the Trojan war. They brought something like 10 ships, while almost all the other captains brought between fifty and a hundred. Yet he's still a lord, and more important. What I'm saying is, it's to do with birth, not wealth.)
I'm sure there are a bunch more I'm missing, but I don't want to have to put actual effort into this (because I'm lazy and you probably don't want more than that and I have deadlines I should be worrying about), so I'm gonna stop now. If you have any other questions feel free to ask though. I kind of love talking about the Odyssey.
Mark Nahas Actually in all fairness Cerce is a nymph/witch, so Odysseus' loyalty doesn't matter to her at all, and I have no idea what context would allow Odysseus to give it to her. Better example would be Calypso, since she explicitly asks him to stay and he says no. She then rants about how all the male gods get to keep their female sex slaves, but as soon as any of the female gods find a mortal they like they have to let him go. So that double standard exists more among the gods, implying that it exists more in general Greek society than in the idealized mortal world of Homer.
In fact, Odysseus can't have sex with Nausicaa because if he did that would be giving political allegiance to her father and her land.
So I suppose what I'm saying is, yes, the sexual double-standard of political loyalty exists, but much more heavily among the gods than the mortals - and I would go on to argue that that is Homer's critique of the general attitudes of Greek society (which were typified in the Iliad, which, as mentioned, the Odyssey is unwriting).
It is what Odyessis get for using Applemaps.
For people who want to read the whole thing themselves, I cannot recommend Emily Wilson's translation enough! It is very true to the text in that it is an epic poem with a consistent rhythm and the same number of lines as the original, and takes a fresh look at the actual meaning of the original words as opposed to layers of clichees that have accumulated through centuries of translations. It's very modern in that it uses everyday English that we can understand, just like the original used contemporary Greek that was easy enough to be passed on orally. It really captures the variety of styles and moods and characters so well! My favorite part of it might be Telemachus to the suitors: “Stop eating all my food!“ [breaks down crying], just because it shows so well how he is really a scared and angry teenager, nervous about speaking up in public and anxious to defend some notion of honor that his father never got to explain because he wasn't around. I found the idea of reading the entire Odyssee daunting, but this translation made it easy, enjoyable and very rewarding. And it includes an introduction and excellent translator's note as well.
Odysseus was a man of his time. Polygamy and/or concubinage was accepted then. Remember that Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon had multiple wives. Even Ramses II had more than 100 wives and mistresses. It was more of a man's world then than now.
As for the slaughter of the suitors, remember that they ate his food, drank his wine, and trashed his house. They also plotted to kill Telemachus in a sea ambush on his return journey.
What was he supposed to do? Say: "I'm back. You can go home now"? If they would plot to kill his son they would have had no problem killing him where he stood.
The families of the suitors were egged on and led by Eupiethes, the father of the suitor Antinous. He allowed his son to make those depredations in Odysseus' palace and apparently forgot that many years before Odysseus protected him from vengeful victims of a piratical raid he committed on a neighboring island under Odysseus' rule. He is killed by Laertes, Odysseus' father.
this. Way more to the story than Crash Course for some reason biased about. Wish this had more upvotes
This is moreso a nitpick than it is an actual analysis. I love the guy, but this is just upsetting
David Harris no true. A lot of places in the ancient world allowed freedom for women. Athens Greece had bad views towards women. Spartina, Egypt ( most ancient Africa really) even Rome etc gave women a lot of rights.
What I took from this video: Things were never boring in ancient Greece and Troy is a surprisingly accurate film (compared to what I would have expected).
What I took from the comments: A lot of men here think that women use sex to manipulate men, by withholding sex. Everyone who used the lock and key analogy in the comments was a man even though allegedly (stated by men) women are more likely to judge other women for sleeping around. So basically some men want women to jump into bed with them straight away but they want them to not do that for other men. OR you could just respect the fact that we have free will and its not all about you.
At my school they even use it in Greek and history class
I actually stidy the Odyssey in school, so I was super happy when I saw that it was the first subject in the new crash course literature.
You can also see the Odyssey as a story about moderation. The suitors were extreme when they pushed their hosts hospitality (bound by the rules of Xenia - Hospitality) but Telemachus was the opposite, refusing a gift from Nestor. Odysseus was very unfaithful while was his wife was etc.
I'm glad to see a classic like this being discussed, especially since I'm informed enough to join in ;)
10 years!!! And it’s still amazing
As a classics major and a feminist, I officially proclaim this video the best thing ever.
So, got your resume all ready for submission to the local Starbucks once you finish?
Fuck off, I want to go for my PhD and be a professor, and I'm an art history minor so my back-up plan is to work in a museum. Furthermore, there are a multitude of career options for classics majors-a lot of classics majors go into law or medicine because the terminology is all derived from Latin and Greek, a lot of rather famous authors were classics majors (J. K. Rowling, Tolkien, etc) had backgrounds in classics, and what the fuck do you think archaeologists major in? Do your research before you talk shit.
Amaan Mithani Yeah I know, it just gets real old real fast, having people tell you that your major is useless.
Ezi Zee Don't worry, classics makes you a good person and prepares you for life and death. #classicsmajorwins
***** I'm not a feminism major, you dingus. I'm a CLASSICS major. I study the ancient world. (I'm not even going to touch your patriarchy comment.)
"blindingly good pun"
so good
Even better in the original Greek.
He gives his name as Οὖτίς, but when the cyclops yells that Οὖτίς has blinded him, the others hear "οὔτις" (the "noman" or "nobody" word) and when they respond that "If no man is attacking you, you must be ill; when Zeus makes people ill, there is no help for it, and you had better pray to your father Poseidon", the grammer is such that "οὔτις" becomes "μή τίς" which sounds a lot like μῆτις - metis, the skill or cunning that Odysseus was so well known for.
It goes like this.
What Polyphemus means: "This Otis guy is killing me!"
What the other Cyclopes hear: "Nobody is killing me!"
What the other Cyclopes say: "If nobody is killing you, suck it up."
What Polyphemus hears: "If you've been outsmarted, suck it up."
Jesse Garrison
Beautifully rendered. Thank you for that.
prestonscott73
It's literally my favorite pun of all time, but until I read the endnotes of the Robert Fagles translation I was unaware of it.
Jesse Garrison
Aha, I still need to read the Fagles translation, my old Ancient Greek professor Peter Green (no relation to John) raves about it. I still have the Lattimore edition.
"It's a blindingly good pun"
You cheeky cheeky man.
I just want to say that I wholeheartedly approve of this episode's "Open Letter."
oh no! someone mentioned a term that was generated by the feminisims! my limited understanding of it makes me believe it isn't a thing! Quick! flee before they steal all our testicles!
Samakain shhhh
you may critique his reading of the odyssey, but one thing john green definitely got right was that sweater.
Just a retiring IT guy chasing a reference on a news/politics program, thanks for catching me up. Skillfully explained! Host and the team are great!
Holy fuck, the entire video is about The Odyssey, John talks about the Odyssey the whole time, and yet one mention of the word "Patriarchy" and the MRA crowd spams the comments so that they can pretend real people agree with them. ._.
Yeah, it's pretty bad. Especially this ridiculous "lock and key" analogy that keeps getting farted out.
Correctrix Except it is relevant, because generally that kind of thing is relevant to the whole of literature.
I'm glad someone is talking sense. Everyone else seems to have got some ridiculous MRA hat on.
Correctrix It's not off topic. The Odyssey itself is practically obsessed with sex and who's sleeping or has slept with who. The women Odysseus sleeps with are in some way supernatural, and even the most dangerous monsters are feminized and sexualized, particularly the Sirens who's power is literally to seduce men with their "irresistible" songs. When Odysseus cheats on his wife, he gets a pass because the women were exceptional/powerful.
The book spends whole chapters on Penelope's life at home. The story invites us to like Penelope BECAUSE she is faithful to her husband, even after TWENTY YEARS of him being gone. Odysseus worries about her fidelity, and he's motivated to get home to her and their "special" marriage bed. Penelope has had to play hostess for a horde of men looking to "claim" her now that Odysseus is (supposedly) dead. And they refuse to leave, sitting in her house drinking and eating her food, no matter how much she refuses their proposals. Her husband is the only one who can finally get rid of them.
All of these notions come from a patriarchal ideology, and the central conflicts of the story are direct results of the patriarchal society depicted. Seeing as how we in 2014 can recognize and empathize with these issues and motivations, I think John's tangent, at the very least, reminds us that The Odyssey is not antiquated or irrelevant, but also that we should make sure we continue to question our own society when it starts to look a little too much like this ancient patriarchal one.
Best Open Letter ever!! Preach it, John!
This whole video isn’t a summary of the odyssey, it’s just about the “double standards” of a story from 3000 years ago
I've only seen CC World History and two Literature 1 episodes until now, and I can notice a _huge_ difference in his talking speed.
You did it again, John. Made a video about just what I needed the day before the test I had it on.
our class is currently reading the graphic novel version, and me and this other kid are keeping a piece of paper counting how many people Odysseus has killed
And did you find out
no, there was so many we lost count, lets just say a lot.
Hundreds if you just count the handmaidens and suitors
If it's Not exactly like the "Original" then it's meaningless to do that.... They are probably added deaths invented specifically for the graphic novel "version"!! That's fine and all for entertainment but just don't forget there is a Real version from Ancient Times!!!
@David Belcher Which translation do you prefer?
Book tip : Inge Merkel, _Odysseus and Penelope: An Ordinary Marriage_. Tells the story from Penelope's point of view.
Margaret Atwood's Penelopiad does as well
will you make new videos soon
Socrates said it himself beautifully what a hero really is :"A man not pre-eminently virtuous and just, whose misfortune, however, is brought upon him not by vice and depravity but by some error of judgement,
I just finished reading Madeline Miller’s wonderful “Iliad” retelling, “Song of Achilles.” In it, she re-imagines and explores the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. I’m anxious to begin reading “Circe,” her take on “The Odyssey.”
So I have to hear about the hosts personal politics just to hear about a greek classic?
yes
Dear every person who is presenting an analogy in the comments that relates to certain parts of human anatomy:
A vagina is not a lock and a penis is not and has never been a key. Just because a dude might be able to stick it in there and twirl it around a bit, that doesn't mean he's actually opening anything.
Thank you. That is all.
I like CrashCourse but you're simplifying the Odyssey way too much in this video.
The Lovely Warrior So, trying not to sound crass or flamebait here....but the title of the series is "Crash Course." so...yea, it's oversimplified. Think of it as an intro, "cliff notes," or jumping off point for further discussion and study.
It's a long story
do u not know the meaning of crash course.
Crash course is simplifying not pushing your feminist propaganda in an ancient work to get gender politics points.
Nothing can convince me Achilles & Patroclus weren’t lovers. ❤️🩹 Achilles lost his mind after his death.
Like John mentioned The Odyssey wasn't written but instead composed and sung before the aid of the alphabet. In fact those texts that were shown in the video are likely the original transcriptions of the poems which were done sometime in the sixth or seventh century BCE. This idea, that the greeks could compose literature without the written word was a controversial one when first proposed by Milman Parry, a structural linguist, in the 1930's. Parry studied the the meter and repetitive, redundant language proving that the structure of the poem was first and foremost an aid to memory the purpose of which was to ferry the strongest memes of culture across generations. (Ironically we would have lost the poem and the culture there in if it hadn't been written down... yay information technology!)
we still have these singsong as ballads in many cultures/religions/traditions and sometimes we do write them down later because music was composed orally in ancient times. hence the oral tradition
I'd also like to add to all the fantastic things you say that Homeric Greek isn't just about stock epithets and formulae that are easy to remember, it's also a mix of loads of different Greek dialects from different points in history: there are Doric, Ionic and Aeolic words all side by side, and probably *because* they're formulaic and fit in with the metre. And not long after Parry's thesis came out, he went with Albert Lord to what was Yugoslavia to find out about oral poets there (like Hakirat mentions) and how similar they were to Homer.
(Also, I'm not sure all those texts were original transcripts: they're probably mediaeval manuscripts because they've got lowercase letters and accents which hadn't been invented back when the Homeric epics were first written down.)
"The only of the poems to survive the burning of the Library at Alexandria"
Thanks a lot Christians!
Actually the library was burned several times by native Egyptians, rival Greek/Macedonians, Romans, Christians, and Muslims if one believes all the stories. The poor building was not treated well.
RhinoOfSteel Yeah, by the time Christians arrived on the scene the Library had been gone for about a hundred years.
Sean Duff If the library had been gone for 100 years, what was the purpose of Pope Theophilus' decree in 391 AD?
Waltham1892 He made several, but the one I think you are referring to closed the Serapium. It was a focus of pagan worship which is what interested him, but it was also the largest of the surviving daughter collection of the Library of Alexandria.
Some, who define the library as the collection, see one as a continuation of the other, and so the loss of the smaller is the technical end of the greater.
Wow, you actually knew that. Or at least you bothered to look it up.
Rare, and impressive.
“I’d be an astonishingly handsome 17 year old” 😂😂😂I love him and his books
I stopped paying attention when they started feasting on the goat cheese..lol Good episode, John.
omg i would murder like 20 suitors for a slice of chevre pizza right now
slut4berniesanders with caramelized onions obviously
Nonamearisto Why did you put the word patriarchy in quotes ? Are you denying that ancient Greek society was male dominated ? Because that would be idiotic. Than again you probably think Reagan was a good president.
reached that part just as i read your comment
After this, you should do Crash Course; Shakespeare. Each episode dedicated to each of his 36 plays!
Oh god, Titus Andronicus would be awkward.
I always loved the Odyssey; both in High School English and the movie. To me it was one of the ultimate journey epics. Like LotR, it's just a very very long journey with a penultimate goal of returning home, but with fun little adventures and trials along the way.
I never really understood much of the Odyssey until today. It makes a lot more sense now. Thank you, John! :D
Great to have this back! John doesn't really seem as excited about it as he was about history though. I loved the bit on cycles of violence. People need to calm down that he mentioned the patriarchy. Solid video.
I don't know man, we're reading this in my French class, and part of it that came up a lot that you didn't really touch on is that Odysseus knows he is a hero, it's one of the most important things about him. And when he blinds Polyphemus, he is "Nobody", but a hero is a somebody. So when he blinds the cyclops, it's this really heroic feat, and the reason he starts taunting Polyphemus after is because he thinks his name will be forgotten, that the man who blinded the great Polyphemus will forever be Nobody. And he hasn't come to terms with the war being over yet, that his greatest exploits are behind him. So what gets Odysseus cursed is his hubris, but it's also his fear of being forgotten, of no longer being a hero, of being a Someone
I was hoping to hear more about the actual story (in depth, maybe divided into 2 videos).
I was really hoping to learn 'Literature.' (12 min. and John almost doesn't mention Telemachus, who is the center of this part of the story, forced to grow from a boy to a man, wanting to know if his father Homer is still alive or dead, etc.)
In Gatsby, John talks about the use of yellow and its meaning, the green light across the water, the glasses representing the ever-watching (albeit aloof) eyes of God. I hope the other Crash Course Literature videos cover more of these type of topics... (>_
I agree. While discussing misogyny in an obviously misogynist work is important, John leaves other important themes like the search for identity, the concept of home or the difficulty of reestablishing and reinventing old relations untouched. I vote for a second part!
Perhaps even a couple minutes more and he could have touched on some of the other themes.
When it comes to sleeping around, you have to think about heirs.
If a man sleeps around you can be pretty sure that the one who gives birth isn't his actual wife, therefore no inheritance issues.
If a woman sleeps around, well, how are you to know it's actually the man's child & heir? You could be handing your kingdom over to the son of another ruler or something.
Who'd want to marry their son into a kingdom where he can't be sure if his kids are his own? It'd be a diplomatic annoyance to say the least, could ruin all sorts of alliances in a time when things often revolved around personal relationship between rulers.
As for why it happens with the common folk, well, people usually try to emulate their social superiors, hence fashions and what not.
Also, I don't really agree with this as a criticism of Oddyseus at all, he was sort of forced into those situations.
good point
That's really a quite interesting viewpoint on why society has this double standard.
If you look at cultures where their beliefs about conception are incorrect or where they have different attitudes to inheritance/fatherhood, such as the Trobriands, you often find that the women are a lot more sexually free than people in other parts of the world used to be.
I think that they believed that the child was developed through repeated sex between two individuals, so as long as the husband is sleeping with is wife the most, its k.
(this is old knowledge so it may be a bit dusty in areas)
There was one culture, though I can't remember the name, where they believed that the child's father was determined by the dreams of the one the wife loves. Therefore she can have sex as much as she wants, as only her husbands dreams can create the child.
So really, I think that the traditional double standard has a lot to do with inheritance laws.
also that women are the gatekeepers of sex.
women can have sex at anytime they want, men have to work for it.
Context as to why that mindset developed does not forgive the fact that today, where it is no longer an issue to worry about, it still persists and is a driving force in the subjugation of women the world around.
John's Open Letter wasn't so much a damnation of Odysseus. Look again at the opening line "Open Letter to the Patriarchy, How are you so resilient?" He used this story that is drenched in ancient mindsets to call attention to flaws in the today's world - which is, to me. one of the more nobler aspects of literary analysis.
Being warned about being killed by your wife isn't misogyny in this case it's prudence
I'm sorry but Agamemnon got it coming!
John's wardrobe is on point today, the dark forest green looks good on him
I have to say, when I first read the Odyssey, the Deus Ex Machina ending really pissed me off.
I guess it might be because bards typically only told the exciting bits in the middle, and never actually completed the story.
Dues ex in old stories alwayse makes me smirk. It's comforting to see it sometimes, like watching an old movie, and knowing the lines by heart. It has it's place, though it is trite. I am curious as to your claim that bards only told the middle bits of stories though.
CarpeMetus Well, if they were traveling around between groups of people, it would give them the best impression of you if you told them the best bits of the story. Also, it's more likely that if you were to start at the beginning that by the time you or they had to leave you wouldn't of got to the end, so it has less detail.
Watch in slow motion 0:02 to the right the shelf with plants you will see a hand
I already loved you, John, but your comments on misogyny have turned my love up to eLEVEN! So excited for this series.
"A blindingly good pun"
For the love of god, John 😂
This video looks a bit shallow. Odyssey is so rich in metaphors and symbolisms. It would be more interesting to identify and analyse some of them. I felt like watching a Hollywood movie eating pop-corn.
I greatly appreciated the lesson. Most importantly to me, you seemed to make the point that even a story as old as the Odyssey has bearing on today, that there is value in every story regardless of its age or origin. The only thing I would have liked to see more of was how feminine heroes play into the patriarchy. The fidelity of Penelope was one which you touched on but I'm interested in what values you seen in someone like Athena and what bearing they have on Greek women. Thanks for great UA-cam content!
I wouldn't say that Odysseus "hardly appears" in the Iliad. Yes, that poem does not revolve around him but actually, his invention, the Trojan horse, is portrayed as a decisive contribution that determined the outcome of the siege of Troy in favour of the Greeks. And Odysseus himself is portrayed in a rather positive light throughout the Iliad as well (from the Greeks' perspective, admittedly) both as a fighter and as strategist who comes up with solutions to problems and helps resolve conflicts. However, it is true that sneaking up on sleeping Trojans and slaughtering them is not a noble act but there are not a lot of truly noble things about war.
I actually found that to be the opposite.* For the majority of the Iliad, Odysseus isn't really portrayed as a nice guy. He is portrayed as very cunning and loyal to the cause, and there are scenes (such as the one where he visits Achilles to try and convince him to join the war) where he seems like a decent human being, but on the whole I found that in the Iliad he was portrayed almost like a bully. Also, the whole trojan horse thing was not part of the Iliad.
*please keep in mind that I am not trying to say that your opinion is wrong, I just interpreted the story differently.
Speaking as a Classicist, funnily enough, it seems like the standard poetic tradition *was* to portray Odysseus as a five-star [...]bag.
One story about the inspiration for the Odyssey was Odysseus' ghost offering his story to Homer, on the condition that his arch-rival Philoctetes wasn't mentioned at all - hence his absence. Basically, Odysseus wasn't such a nice guy in the lost poems of the Epic Cycle (and let's face it, he isn't great even in the Odyssey.).
Another competing version of the night-raid in Book X of the Iliad portrays Odysseus as trying to kill Diomedes to make of with the treasure as they make their way back to camp, but Diomedes sees Odysseus' shadow, and realising what he's trying to do, confronts him and frog-marches Odysseus back to camp.
Generally speaking, Odysseus was still πολυμηχανος (cunning), but he was also a back-stabbing, manipulative egotist according to what we know of other traditions.
Another thing to consider is how much of the Odyssey is told through Odysseus' own perspective - Books 9-11 are almost entirely in direct speech, which some scholars have taken as implying that Odysseus is actually making the whole thing up (or at least exaggerating.). This would account for how these books differ markedly from the latter half of the epic in terms of the role of fantasy elements - by contrast, Books 13 onwards (after around 13.150) contain very little in terms of the supernatural (just the occasional divine intervention.). In fact, it's possbile that Odysseus' "lies" about his mundane travels around Crete actually represent an earlier Odyssey - the "real" one - and the poet of the Odyssey composed our version in order to create a more exciting νοστος (homecoming-story) for Odysseus. Long-story short, the Odyssey was made up by Odysseus to cover up his boring journey home and to explain how he lost all of his men ("Killed in divine retribution" sounds a lot better than for Odysseus than "we were kidnapped by Phoenician pirates".).
So yeah, your interpretation is pretty much exactly what we see in the rest of the Trojan Cycle's tradition.
Here is the story of ΚΙΡΚΗ (Circe), as it was meant to be read and understood.
...Odysseus takes a look at his companions. They are all men forged in violence and turmoil; barefoot, their skin covered in blisters, malnourished, crude and impatient to get back to their wives and children. All they want is to have a warm homemade meal, drink wine and feast with friends and loved ones. Above all, they miss the tender touch of a woman. A kiss, a whisper, making love. They Lust - They Hunger - For a woman's touch. They are all at their prime. Strong, battle hardened warriors.
Suddenly, they spot Circe's island on the horizon. They land on the beach, and set out to find food and water, when they are suddenly confronted by Circe herself! What a sight she is! WHAT BEAUTY! She HAS to be a witch! A sorceress! As Circe approaches the sailors, the earth seems to crumble under her feet. Circe tells the men to follow her - and how could they refuse! They are overwhelmed. The song of the birds. The exotic fruits. And above all, Circe's beauty! After a while, they reach Circe's palace, where they find clean linen, fresh fish, meat, and the sweetest wine! Ultimately, everyone falls under Circe's spell.
The men feast until their guts are full. Now they turn their gaze upon Circe. Circe, also a woman in lust, sees the desire of the men, and welcomes them all in her bedroom. But the men are crude, clumsy, they seek to quench their own desire rather than satisfy Circe. Circe is insatiable - a beautiful woman that hasn't experienced the touch of a man for so long...Circe is begging to experience ecstasy!
Surely we can only imagine the psychological effect such a drastic change must have had upon the men. From Troy, to battling against the elements at sea. Struggling to stay alive against great odds. Now, at the halls of Circe's palace. Feasting on the finest wine and meat they have ever tasted. Their lust fulfilled by a woman they could only dream of holding in their arms. Odysseus' companions slowly sink in a hedonistic fever. They forget everything. They forget Odysseus, the journey to Ithaca, their homes and their loved ones. To put it bluntly, they only have two things on their minds: Fucking and Eating! By the Gods! They are no better than pigs!
Night becomes day. Day becomes night...Odysseus finally decides to leave the ship and look for his companions. Odysseus finds Circe's palace, enters the halls, and sees his companions growl for more food and wine, crawling on Circe's feet. Odysseus is overwhelmed with anger and, at first, he thinks "I should whip, and then drag every last one of these pathetic bastard dogs from his feet, back to the ship!".
But Odysseus is smarter than that. He knows that Circe has turned his men into animals; into pigs! He is greatly outnumbered, and he knows full well that there is no way to convince his men to leave this paradise and resume their journey to Ithaca.
Odysseus is indeed very good at finding ways to get what he wants without resorting to violence. After all, his patron and protector is Athena, the goddess of Wisdom. So, Odysseus decides to join the feast alongside his companions. "BY THE GODS!" Odysseus screams. "What a feast!". "How dare you not invite me! How dare you keep all that wine for yourselves, you damn scoundrels!". "And Circe! So beautiful!" "WELCOME ODYSSEUS!" His companions reply! "We're glad you finally decided to join us! - EAT! DRINK!".
But Odysseus has something else in mind. He approaches Circe, takes her hand, and leads her to her bedroom. Until now, Circe had only experienced the crude, selfish ways of his companions, who barely satisfied her carnal lust. Odysseus is different. He is a King. He sees and understands things his companions cannot. He sees Circe's beauty, but he also understands her intellect. There is no beauty without intellect after all. Circe is now - for the first time - seduced by a man. Odysseus is not a mere plaything like his companions were in Circe's bedroom. Odysseus knows how to seduce, how to make love, how to fuck. He knows what to say, and when. He knows what to do, and how. Circe, is defenseless. She falls in love with Odysseus, and completely surrenders to his will.
Weeks pass, and Circe, now infatuated with Odysseus starts to neglect the others. Only Odysseus is now allowed in Circe's bedroom. The men, slowly regain their senses from their drunken stupor, and turn from animals (pigs) to human again. They finally turn to Odysseus and say "Our King, there is nothing for us here anymore, time to stock up on supplies and get back on our ship. We have to resume our journey. Our families and loved ones are waiting for us. We have to return to Ithaca!". To this Odysseus replies. "You are right! It was foolish of us to waste time in this island! Let us prepare everything for our journey to Ithaca!" And so Circe's spell is broken, and the journey resumes...
9:00
Actually, he would have worn a chiton, which is like a toga, but different. Togas were worn by the Romans, not the Greeks.
Dork
(that's actually pretty cool though)
I fail an oral exam once, because I did not know this :)
STFU
Welcome to my life where I’m doing my homework at my grandparent’s house on Sunday
Broooo same I'm two years late but same
7:32 because a key that unlocks many locks is a magical key, but a lock that is opened by many keys is a bad lock
+DTinaglia Studios That.... is not a logical argument.... at all.
+DTinaglia Studios good comparison
+DTinaglia Studios Yeah, let's boil down an entire human being with complex emotions and traits to a simple object like a lock or a key. Awesome.
Maybe if we valued people and used things, rather than use people and value things, the world would be a *wee bit better*.
Legomyegoorj is metaphor, please be calm.
+DTinaglia Studios So you’re saying men about two inches long and often found in the hands of authority figures?
Tonight, I hang my head in shame after reading the comments below. John, you might need to address the open letter separately, as it seems very few seem to understand it.
"an open letter to the patriarchy"
Treating sexism like some kind of Illuminati really devalues actual sexism. "The patriarchy" isn't a thing.
Thank you for this.
because your five seconds of thinking about it qualify you to have an opinion.
WindexmanIII And here I was thinking I was being reasonable.
"Achilles didn't get to go home" - I'm not sure this is quite right. Achilles had every opportunity to go home, and that's exactly what he planned to do, as he told the embassy in book 9. He spoke of exactly that choice, of dying in battle and achieving κλέος or going home and living a long life, and he chose the latter. So, yes, he did go for glory in the end, but I don't think it's as straightforward as Achilles in the Iliad being all about κλέος, as he outright rejects going back into battle, at least until Patroclus is killed by Hector.
Crashcourse is probably the most awesome, helpful thing Green brothers participated in, just brilliant.
New Nerdfighter expression of love: I will be true to you in my toga.
I love this!
"Honey, I want you to know ... when I go away for the business trip, I'll be true to you in my toga."
I watch crash course at night to help me sleep. Information overload.
The Illiad and the Odyssey are some of my favorites classical literature, and some of my favorite mythologies. Thanks for doing a video on this.
"To love a book you have to know about the author" (paraphrasing) That's an interesting statement. It's an issue I've wrestled with before. If you don't like the author, are his/her books tainted? Everyone has to consider that question. To me, if the author's actions/beliefs are so against my own sense of right and wrong then the answer is yes. I can accept some disagreement, but there are limits. If someone else has a different opinion, I won't argue. It's a matter of taste.
John was kidding. He's stated multiple times that he doesn't believe authorial intent is important, and that books belong to their readers, not to the people who write them.
You bring up really interesting points about the author's personality tainting their work. In my opinion, it's something to be mindful of, but I can divorce the idea of the creator from the art (or literature) itself. For instance, Richard Wagner was a deplorable person (he was very public and completely unapologetic about the affairs he had with his friends' wives, and he was horribly anti-semitic), but I still enjoy his operas. I suppose it would be harder to separate the creator from the creation when talking about artists and authors who are still living, since buying or viewing their work would help fund them.
as someone who finds it hard to follow along with what people are saying sometimes, i really appreciate the accurate closed captions on these videos.
No mention of Telemachus? I mean, nearly a third of the story revolves around him and his mother while they're waiting for Odysseus to make it home. Seems like that would be important. And certain to show up on a test about the Odyssey, so you may want to look that up.
last day of finals tomorrow, your videos have helped me so much throughout this school year, not even just English but with hon biology & AP history too. Thank you!
The Odyssey is long, complicated, and sometimes the characters tend to take the long route to solving problems, but it still was an incredibly enjoyable read. I thought the characters were interesting, the plot was satisfying, and yes, looking at this epic through a modern eye, you do see the period-typical sexism and beliefs that wouldn't register as very heroic today, but then said, this text is thousands of years old. Odysseus wasn't an adulterer, he was forced to sleep with Calypso and Circe. And yes, while those two nymphs aren't exactly supposed to be specifically heroic, they are women with power, which is incredible for that time. I also thought it was as much about Telemachus as it was about Odysseus. The first four books specifically zero in on his quest to learn a both what happened to his dad, and the end is about them working together to kill the suitors. All in all, this was really fun and interesting to read, and Penelope really just gets the short end of the stick the entire time.
Women are not locks, men are not keys, we are all PEOPLE that have try to come together and to complete one another.
Men and women don't have to be enemies and in constant opposition, the success of women does not mean the downfall of men.
so many angry manchildren on the internet see the equality of sexes as a zero-sum game and i have never understood that. same thing with racists; they think that for another minority, or otherwised historically marginalized group to gain rights, they must lose them. I have literally never understood that.
"Patroclus, achilles' best friend and maybe also lover it's not clear" john they're gay
This is a very, very simplistic analysis of one of the world's greatest and most complex works of art, by someone who seems to not like the epic at all. I could go through and contradict the video point by point, but who has time for that. Let me just say that it's rather unfair to judge Odysseus by today's moral standards. If you want to have a discussion about the moral shortcomings of the Greeks, or even Homer himself in comparison to today, have at it, but none of that is any fault of Odysseus, especially if you actually read the text.
+Ken Troklus There's nothing wrong with forming an opinion on a work of art. There is a genre of story in Japan where lesbian women are "empowered" by being raped straight. Just because the author believes something about it doesn't mean you also can't have an opinion about the story that exists in concert with that intent. John is very clear on what parts are his interpretation and what Homer (or, the ancient greeks in general) intended to portray based on their values.
If you believe there is no relationship between storyteller and audience, that art is non-transformative and that works are never subject to interpretation that means you have always relied on another source to give you your opinions on a story. Which, frankly, means they are not your own independent thoughts and we wouldn't want to hear them anyway, so thanks for not sharing.
+Ken Troklus The show is called 'Crash Course'. Just saying.
There is blatant sexism in the poem, but using the idea that some of the monsters are female as evidence of further sexism is lame.
If all the monsters in the poem were female then he would have a point, but that's not the case. Odysseus has to defeat monsters in the poem, and just like in life, some are male and some are female, what is sexist about it?
This kind of desperate miscatagorization of sexism is really messing things up for our society. By conditioning people to strain their eyes and see oppression where it is not there you are making them live in a world that they see as much worse than it is. If a young woman falsely thinks that the society she is in is completely against her how much happiness can she be capable of achieving? How can she have the trust in others she would need to live a healthy life? And most importantly, if she incorrectly assumes that a "patriarchy" exists to oppress her what drive could she possibly posses to innovate or create?
Obvious troll is obvious.
Kevin O'Neal obviously....lol
The male monsters are part of the patriarchy, of course. Also, John Green doesn't understand what makes men and women different?
"Some of the monsters"
try "all of the monsters bar one"
Roman Fox What could potentially be called sexism would be the notion that "I'm Odysseus the man. I can screw around with as many women as I like, and as long as I still love my wife in my heart it's ok... but if she touches another man I'll kill the cheating whore".
Yikes. Not the discussion in the comments I've come to expect from Crash Course viewers. We're all intelligent people here; is it really that hard to accept that women and men should be held to the same standard?
we're not people, we're keys and locks. apparently.
Crash Course is so helpful, we're learning about Greek Mythology and the Trojan War at school and this has taught me so much in less than 15 minutes
When John said that next time he will discuss a story filled with sex and violence for a moment there I though he was talking about Game of Thrones. XD
game of thrones, oedipus rex....close enough.
Khaldun1
I think you mean "and"
its funny how one story can be interpretted different ways.
i always liked odysseus because he was very smart, loyal to his wife even after all hed been through, got revenge on unfaithful people, and even had a faithful doggo
Worst summary...ever.
The Odyssey is a work of literature. It is mythology. It is not a history. It is reflection of the culture of the time and place. Odysseus was a flawed human being by our standards. I think he reflected the idea that humans are pawns of the gods.