How much does your Mash PH impact your Original Gravity when brewing beer?
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- How much does your Mash PH impact your Original Gravity when brewing beer?
First, this video is really geared toward the true beer geek or hardcore home brewer. This video is all about seeing just how much the PH of your mash impacts the original gravity of your beer.
My untreated tap water was 7.76 PH
The Original Gravity of the test mash at 15 minutes was 5.82 PH
What is the PH of the Mash at 15 minutes and what was the final Original Gravity?
5.82 - 1.054
5.60 - 1.060
5.40 - 1.060
5.20 - 1.059
Equipment used:
DR Meter PH100-V - No Longer available
DR Meter PH838 (Backlit)
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Pro Series standard triple scale hydrometer for beer/wine/mead
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Thanks for the interesting experiment. The outcome is what I would have expected. From what I have heard and read (probably Palmer), extract efficiency is favoured by PH of 5.6, we go for a lower PH of 5.2 because it has benefits for hot break(or cold, don't remember), hop extraction and final beer flavour, even if it is ever so slightly worse for efficiency.
I didn't realize the extract favoring 5.6 so that would make sense why 5.2 was less by 1 point. I've read a lot, especially things Palmer has mentioned both in book and in interviews but there is so much to know and remember I'm not sure if I remember that so it looks like I should go back for another read or two. Thanks for that info as it is very insightful.
I pinned your comment to the top as I think a lot of people would appreciate that info.
@@BitterRealityBrewing I'll see if I can find the reference. If it was a Brew Strong episode it will be hard to find though... (I also say Palmer live in a conference) But I did remember the info, because it explained how everything in brewing, including the 5.2 PH recommendation is a compromise of several variables
got this from the Braukaser link(braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/How_pH_affects_brewing)
A commonly accepted optimal range for mash pH is 5.2 - 5.7 with 5.5 being optimal for starch conversion activity but many authors report wort and beer quality benefits if the pH is lowered into the 5.2 - 5.4 range [Kunze, 2007][Narziss, 2005].
@@brunoschmidt300 Thank you and I opened the link in a tab so I can read it later tonight when I have plenty of time. Thank you.
.2 points at pH7 doesn't mean .2pH at pH5. its a log scale
Matt can you explain a bit more in detail as I understand a log scale but want to make sure I fully understand you comment better.
@@BitterRealityBrewing sure. Each point of pH is 10x more acidity than the last as you go down the ph scale. For example. If it takes X oz of an acid to go from ph7 to ph6, it will take X×10 amount to drop from pH6 to pH5.
So dropping 0.2 pH when you're in the 7's is like dropping 0.002 pH when you're in the 5's
@@MatthewHerrold Thank you very much as I had forgotten that and really never thought about how it truly applies when scaling as you mentioned it is more of a log scale. I might need to create a little cheat sheet to help remind myself. I think this would make a great video to discuss although I really need to get a better comprehension of it first as sometimes it is in how you see and think of things. I'm love math so this is in my wheelhouse but I need to improve my understanding more before I try to explain it to anyone. Thank you again. (One of the major reasons I love home brewing as I am always learning or relearning.)
@@BitterRealityBrewing this video explains it better than I can. ua-cam.com/video/Xkrgw2CFwRs/v-deo.html
I enjoyed watching the video, it was very good. The pH of malt is listed on the malt spec sheet that comes with malt, there's really no need to test malt. The data listed on a malt spec sheet came from the tests performed by the IOB, EBC and the MABC. Extract efficiency, saccharification time and gravity are listed on a malt spec sheet, which are good to know.
The pH of ale malt is lower than the pH of lager malt. Crystal, Cara, and black malt reduce mash pH.
With straight RO water at 7.2 pH, at one quart water to one pound of malt, and Weyermann floor malt, mash pH stabilizes at 5.7, 5.8. During the acid rest mash is rested at 95F until mash pH reduces. Mash pH is important in the decoction method because when mash is boiled tannin extraction occurs when mash pH is high.
Mash pH affects gravity from the aspect that when mash pH is optimum for the activated enzyme, the enzyme works at its optimum efficiency based on the rest temperature. A thick mash and low temperature preserves Alpha. Alpha is responsible for OG, the enzyme releases from simple starch, amylose, sweet tasting, nonfermenting, types of sugar and simple sugar, glucose, which is responsible for primary fermentation and ABV. At 150F, Alpha releases the highest volume of glucose as possible from amylose within an hour. The more glucose, the more alcohol. So, when temperatures are 150F and above, mash pH should be optimum for Alpha. When a conversion rest is used mash pH should be optimum for Beta. Mash pH should be kept low during sparge to stop tannin extraction from occurring.
When mash is rested at 140F conversion occurs, which increases alcohol content but the beer overly dries and thins during conditioning.
First where do I get a Malt Spec Sheet as a home brewer I've never seen one of these with any malts I've purchased and am lucky to get the name of the company that created the malt and the SRM or Lovibond although after you mentioned it I did some research and Briess does have them on their website for most of their malts which I've looked up from time to time in the past but I've never seen this with any malts I've purchased. I can only assume from your comments current and past you are either a professional brewer, a brewery chemist, or someone who is fresh out of a professional brewing school as you reference everything in great detail.
Single data point, but falls into the same data set I have established for my process. As long as your pH is within expected bounds (4.95 to 5.65 in my system) the expected gravity is pretty flat and I always end up within a point, sometimes 2, of my expected gravity. Once you get outside that range on the high side it falls off pretty fast.
I'm happy if I'm anywhere between 5.2 to 5.6 but prefer to shoot for 5.4 or lower but from everything I read the lower the PH is to a point of course should impact the OG but obviously once your at a certain level maybe there are simply diminishing returns for that too. It just wasn't what I was expecting to see so it was a real eye opener to me.
Not boring to me. Very informative!
Thank you very much. The original video footage was well over 1 hour so I tried to chop as much useless or repeat information out of the video including the top of my head as I figured no one needed to see that either. I was really expecting a bit more OG on the lower PHs which is still hard to full understand why I didn't but I'm not a scientist just a home brewer learning as I go.
Very interesting test! Thank you for sharing!
Thank you and I was shocked to some degree on the outcome but learned a lot.
Beyond OG, I thought a significant benefit of working in the 5.2-5.6 range was to minimise tannin extraction during sparge?
I have heard that too, but I haven't gone looking for any hard research. Beyond what I learned from this experiment which showed me I'd get better extraction for OG at 5.4 over 5.2 was that you may gain other benefits at 5.2 compared to 5.4, such as more of certain enzymes, better yeast health, and a few other parts that I can't remember. This test was done solely out of curiosity, but I may have to run a few more down the road and try to measure for tannins, too, as there has been a lot of misinformation about tannins in the past, with many of them being proven wrong. I wonder what PH it would take to extract tannins and how much is too much.
Hi, you talk about the effect of ph on OG, the whole rang of ph you are looking at are all perfectly acceptable for brewing. I wouldn't consider any of them outside the normal range. Also you only need to be concerned with ph in the mash, with readings taken about 10 minutes in at mash temperature of a full batch with full quantities, the relationship with strike water, temperature, volume, grain type , adjuncts, and ph will depend upon all of these variables and is not entirely linear. The darker the grain the more the ph will be pulled down in the mash so if making stouts you may well need to adjust to increase alkalinity not acidity, you may end up with a low ph. Long and short of it is it entirely depends on your water profile and style of beer. If your MASH ph is too high, i.e much higher than the range you are taking about you will get lots of off flavours, if your MASH ph is to low I would say 4.8 or lower you will see lower attenuation and end up with a sweeter beer with lower ABV. This will have a much more profound effect on your FG not your OG. Brulosophy did an experiment with just this, - two batches exactly the same, one with a mash ph of around 5.4 and the other adjusted to around 4.8 with water addition changes both had exactly the same OG but the lower ph batch finished at 1.017 and the higher ph batch finished at 1.011, both made good beer, and the variation may suite the style you are shooting for, but pronounced differences in mash ph will effect flavour adversely if too high, and attenuation if too low. Not that it would happen but a pre fermented ph of 2 would give you 0% ABV.
Sorry meant add this comment to tge main comments
Since alfa and beta amylase doesn’t have the same optimum ph, this could have cause the difference?
I think I may have finally ruined my first batch of beer! I made a cream ale that I was going to fruit in secondary. During the mash I added 2 ml of lactic acid stirred and waited a few minutes then checked the PH again, didn't seem to help so I then added 2 more ml. Again the PH was solid at around 6.2. I thought I would add 1 more ml and then the PH went down to 5.3 which I thought was a good number. After the boil I put the wurt into my fermzilla, pitched my yeast and pressurized to 15lb. After a week primary fermentation was done so I tossed in 3lb of smashed up strawberries (previously frozen whole). I left them in the fermenter for 3 days and then pulled them. I allowed the beer another day to clear up again from the fruit. I then made a really amateur move. I pulled my empty keg from inside my keezer and did a closed transfer of the beer from room temperature into a cold keg. SHM it took a while and it was foaming like crazy. I put the filled keg into the keezer and allowed it to get cold. I went for a taste test and found that the beer is really thin. I mean really thin. Kind of like a white claw, it appears to be VERY VERY crisp and too much for my liking. I think the acidity of the fruit made the beer even more acidic. I am wondering if you have any tricks that may fix this, if not I am going to attempt to drink it but it's not quite pleasant to drink, not because it is bad but just not my thing. A cream ale is supposed to have a full mouth feel and creamy but this is a very very light mouth feel like drinking sparkling stuff!
this was my first attempt at a pressure fermentation and I am wondering if maybe putting the room temp beer (around 68 degrees) into the cold keg causing all the foaming could have caused my issues or if the 5ml of 88% lactic acid could have been the culprit. Either way the beer was under carbonated after all the foaming so I tossed it on 30psi for a day or two to get it back up to the proper carbonation.
I might have the best and easiest solution but without seeing everything from beginning to end and having more info I could be a little off. I would highly recommend just leaving it under pressure and allowing it to sit for at least 2 to 3 days. Many years ago I did a crazy experiment where I brewed very high ABV beers but then cut them with water to increase the total amount of beer at a much lower ABV. For the first 4 weeks they tasted really thin and watered down and took about 2.5 weeks to bottle carbonate as they were all bottled. After about 6 weeks they tasted slightly better but at 8 to 12 weeks they tasted like regular beer without the thin watery taste.
I know that isn't the same but I would highly recommend you give it some time to see if it stabilizes. Shockingly I've found out a few times over the years that there are a lot of breweries that brew higher ABV beers and then blend them with water to lower the ABV to a specific level before bottling and shipping.
@@BitterRealityBrewing Thanks I will give that a shot, I attempted to drink a pint last night and it was not only thin but a bit sour so I think the PH is way low.
Ok so I have let it sit for a bit which has also given me time to think about my "process". First let me say that the beer is being dumped which is a shame, it is quite sour and has a bit of a foul taste. This was certainly a learning experience for me and now I believe I know what I did wrong. After a week of primary and seeing the krausen drop I decided to remove the pressure from the fermenter and add the fruit. However, this is where I believe I went wrong and am pretty sure I introduced outside bacteria to my beer as everything was looking great. The process I took when adding the fruit was to take the whole frozen strawberries and smash them up with a meat tenderizer (inside the bag) and then I sanitized my sack in which I put the strawberries in before adding them to the beer. However, I never pasteurized the strawberries as I had read that frozen fruit typically does not need this. I am guessing that these berries may have had some wild bacteria on them that turned my beer into this nastiness. My next batch I will be making a puree with the 3lb of berries and then pasteurize that on the stove before actually adding it to my beer. I am highly doubting that the 5ml of lactic acid in which I added was the sole cause of this off flavor and sourness. You live and you learn but hey at-least I make it through 7 batches of beer before ever having to dump one!
@@BitterRealityBrewing ok I give you props. I gave it a few more days (4) in the keg. The foul taste went away. Even though there is a bit of sourness left it's not a terrible beer and is drinkable. Now if I get sick I will know there was an infection but so far so good. Not my best at all and probably the worst I have made but it's drinkable anyway. I do like sours and this seems to be on par with others I've had. I am guessing I added too much lactic acid for the combination of also fruiting which probably also added some acid from the fruit. Cheers and thank you! I figured there was no harm leaving it in the keg while the next batch fermented.
@@codebowl After going to school at White Labs, I learned that Lacto was the #1 most common infection for beer. The good and the bad: First if you keep it really cold while serving it can take 2 to 4 weeks to get to the point it is noticeable. The other thing which is either bad or good based on your beer is. Does it work for that beer style? If it is a Witbier, going sour might be just as tasting but if it was a Stout or IPA, maybe not as much. Who knows, maybe you will start a new style, blending Lacto with a Stout? 😀
Thanks for doing the work!! I found the vid informative.
Idea: next time maybe do 4.4, 5.4, 6.4 ph. ,,?
Sounds like a plan. I am thinking of doing a same PH but a 30, 60, 90 and maybe a 120 mash time compared.
I tried my first Brewferm kit this year after receiving a Triple Terror kit from my wife for Christmas. We watched your videos, followed the instructions, made sure everything was sanitized and the gravity meter wouldn't drop below red. Actually red was floating above the red and it needed to drop to 2. We used 1/2 brown sugar and 1/2 regular white granulated sugar. It was supposed to be ready in 7-10 days to bottle, but wasn't, so we checked it again in 21 days, still no change, then we just checked it tonight after 5 weeks and it didn't change. I decided it was a fail and dumped the entire wart into the sink. Temps were a consistent 68 degrees, do you have any idea what went wrong? When looking at the "beer" in a glass, it looked hazy, like sugary. We weighed the sugar and ensured the proper amount was added with the right amounts of bottled water. No mold or infection, smelled like beer, but according to the instructions, we shouldn't bottle it until it reaches 2 on the gravity meter. Thanks and I'm totally bummed right now. First try was an epic fail. 😞
Sorry and wish you had reached out to me sooner but it sounds like you did everything right but your Yeast was dead or damaged (maybe due to heat during or before shipping). A fresh packet of dry yeast from a local home brew shop could have fixed it in the first 2 to 3 days of non-fermentation. Sadly this does happen once in a blue moon as usually even expired yeast will still do its job unless it is extremely old.
Excellent, thanks.
Thank you for the support.
what if the untreated wather got 20min extra mashtime and not the otherway around, could time help ppl whom arent using wather cemestry?
That is my next test. To take and do a 30, 60, and 90 minute mash at the same PH. Actually just adding a small amount of acid malt can help push your mash PH down to a respectable level too.
Another great video. I’m just delving into water chemistry and at this a point have been using pH strips to check mash pH. I usually take a reading about 15 minutes in. Do you recommend doing sooner? And is it ok to add acid at that time of pH needs to be lowered?
10 to 15 if recirculating otherwise 15 as that gives the mash time to level out on its natural adjustments from the grains and any brewing salts and plenty of time for you to adjust the ph if needed. I have both lactic and phosphoric but I've always been told lactic is the best to add usually so that is my go to for adjustments. Add one tiny drip and give it at least 5 minutes to adjust before considering anymore as you can easily overshoot as that stuff is powerful. Once you get good at the brewing salts and feel comfortable there are calculators to help figure out just how much lactic or phosphoric acid to add without guessing but I am still learning that part too.
Sorry I’m a little late to this party.
Interesting experiment.
Do you have any experience with a product called Five Star 5.2 ph stabilizer? I’ve always shied away from water chemistry and just use filtered water. I’ve had an “it is what it is” attitude about it, but now I think I should at least get the PH right.
This product seems very simple…just throw it in and it gets you to the correct PH (maybe?).
Also, do different styles of beer require a different mash PH?
(Ex. IPA vs Stout).
I actually think I still own a container of Five Star 5.2 stabilizer and used it before I got into water chemistry which is a lot easier than you may realize. Now that I know more from doing water chemistry, I would never use the Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer as it is kind of like throwing darts blindfolded. I probably should do a video on it but honestly beyond getting your PH down to 5.2 might be helpful but are the brewing salts balanced? Are they more for a darker, malty brew, or a hoppy brew. I've found that brewing salts do help with PH but the malts you use do a better job and you could always add acid malts or some lactid acid to get to the ph.