Shocked! But is it true? Well, I read the main study, "The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men", and it does not support these claims. The test + workout group gain 6.1kg, the test + no workout gained 3.2kg, and the no test + workout group gained 1.9kg. That means the test + workout group gained an additional 1kg. Also, they fixed the workout to 3 days a week so this doesnt account for higher volume through increased recovery and that you dont get tired in your workout as easy while on test, allowing for higher volume. Increased volume is one of the biggest ways to grow more muscle, which should drive up the difference even more and aligns better with anecdotical reports.
Those numbers….. Experienced guys gaining 1.9kg in that time period ‘naturally’ is significant. I have so many questions about these outcomes of this study.
If you actually look at the data the test exercise group also got stronger quicker, so that's probably where the extra weight gain comes from, just from higher gains from increased mechanical tension. The test exercise group also started at lower baselines compared to the exercise group and they did not catch up to the exercise group in most measures. Not to mention increased water retention and glycogen synthesis postworkout while on test likely adds more weight.
@@Honest_Max I'd say anyone gaining 1.9kg in ten weeks is significant never mind 6.1kg. You really have to question what these people's training and nutrition looked like before the study and then their nutrition during it.
Menno, would you be open to addressing the points in this comment thread? These appear to oppose some of the video's claims, but we're all open-minded and would love to hear your thoughts on a healthy debate of interpretation. Thanks. @menno.henselmans
You misunderstood then I think. TRT is low dosages of test, so it will do virtually nothing for you. The more test the more muscle you gain, so you're going to have to take high dosages of gear to exceed your training gains. The best short way to describe this video is that gear and training both contribute to gains independent from each other. Gear makes you go up, training makes you go up. Going up in one does not make the other go up in response. It's like having two jobs: an engineering job and a doctor job. Being a good engineer increases your monthly income, but it's not going to make your income from your doctor job go up in response as well. You're going to have to work on that one separately to make its income go up. If you want the highest income, you're going to need both. But once your income is stupid high, quitting your engineering job will cut that part of your income out. It doesn't linger around.
There is something about this that doesn't seem right. First, it's FREE testosterone that's important, not TOTAL test. Second, many of the subjects were not bodybuilders but were people suffering debilitating diseases. Third, the charts at 3:04 don't line up with the claim that exercise doesn't matter when taking test. In addition, a lot of "studies" on gear tend to have low sample sizes because most guys aren't going to join such studies. Plus, it doesn't line up with the majority of anecdotal reports about "alternative" supplements. I agree that all these "Amazon" test boosters are worthless.
@@punxsutawneyphil3944 If the studies he is citing are credible then it is a myth. I cant be arsed to learn to read research papers and go read these papers but someone should and confirm if its a myth infact or saying that its a myth is actually the myth.
I went in skeptical, but this is honestly very very good information. In particular, testosterone related gains being additive to lifting rather than synergistic is a big eye opener for me. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense, but it's definitely not how I thought things worked. Great content.
Would you please explain to me this part. English isn't my first language and I just can't wrap my head around what he actually means. It sounds much like " you see, their muscles grew even if they don't train but it's not because of test" what the hell is it from then? I hope I don't bother you, sir.
@@evilmirin1329 his point is that testosterone induced muscle growth is seperate from training induced muscle growth, in this case it being just additive rather than multiplicative. idk i dont really see how this makes any real sense based on anecdotal reports from people running grams of gear
You are welcome to come on the TRT and Hormone Optimization channel and debate me on myth #2 as this is objectively incorrect in real world application, mechanistic theory and a variety of other studies which confer mental therapeutic benefits.
So true, i was feeling depressed and discovered that i have low testosterone… When i started TRT all that sadness went away! I feel so much energetic and confident now…
AND Genetics. I have heard guys like Dorian Yates talk about how even in his first year of training with weights, he was better than 90% of actually buff guys he was seeing the in the gym. Some people's metabolism is inherently more geared towards synthesizing protein and building muscle. Some people are on the opposite end of the spectrum sadly. The 'hard gainers'.
"People that take gear, they just grow. And how they train doesn't influence their rate of gains" - case in point a guy from the gym that only does a bit of biceps curls and bench-press and grew like mushroom.
If high testosterone doesn't have any effect on your mood and feelings, why does low testosterone levels have negative effects? TRT is a thing, and it's subscribed often because of "low energy" and low mood
I think it must be related to the fact we are deficient, as TRT has noticeably and measurably increased my hypertrophic response to weightlifting, as well as my mood. My pre-trt levels were 8 (and 25 is average for my age) and now they are 16. Basically I trained for 14 years with low testosterone (Well, 1 point above what they'd treat at the time) and gained about 35lb of muscle. 2 years of TRT and I've gained 20lb more muscle. (I posted this again in it's own thing above, since I find myself confused and lacking clarification)
It's important to note that people with almost zero testosterone can have erections and a libido. People with low testosterone often don't know they have it until age related symptoms start happening. I would also argue that desire for sex and erections and erection quality are different things and that testosterone doesn't often help with erections or erection quality your metabolism and blood flow/circulation do.
Concerning Myth #2, Menno's title is "You can feel if you have high or low testosterone". But this is somewhat disingenuous because he makes a disclaimer at the end that he is referring specifically to aggression, not energy level or libido. I can attest for myself, anecdotally, that I can absolutely tell when my testosterone is low because my energy and libido are low, and this is backed-up by my bloodwork.
Another important conclusion of this is that All of the test gains disappear after withdrawel (and some more cause temporary dipp in your Natural test). Only exercised promoted gains remain.
kinda depressive if you think about it that even your work doesn't matter as much if you got say half of normal range on your natural level of testosterone you can't outwork it.
I have been on TRT for over 9 years now because I lost my testies due to testicular cancer. I am currently on 40 mg per day and I have almost no natural production. I can tell you that I am absolutely affected by some of the side effects. I am much more irritable, more aggressive and have a shorter fuse. I can completely lose my shit when I am stuck in traffic for example, something I did not experience before even though my test level is roughly the same as it was when I still had my testies. Regarding libido I can say that it has increased a lot. I am 42 and my sex drive is definitely higher than it was before. I am maintaining my strength and muscle pretty well and I suppose as I get older my TRT use will give me a slight edge over other men my age.
TRT gives you a massive edge, don't be ridiculous. And hey maybe you are the guy that needs 280 to get to 900-1500 range. But none of the other makes sense. I have not seen guys on 2 grams of gear act like you-unless they were tren or orals users.
The idea that taking testosterone to boost it above normal levels does not impact mood and libido sounds so off, based on all the anecdotes. Including among women. But the studies speak for themselves
I remember a study from the University of Tel Aviv, some 20 years ago, where they claimed that tattoos will hinder hypertrophy due to a negative impact on the nervous system...No Joke!..Point being: Every study is to be taken with a grain of salt!
based on everything pointing to the contrary id ignore the findings of that one study. as per many studies out there which can easily be ignored as you know they are bunk
Also, some men who think they have low testosterone levels (low libido, low energy, depressed, etc) can actually attribute those symptoms to low estrogen levels, not low testosterone. Taking TRT can certainly ease those symptoms, but it does so by converting some of that testosterone into estrogen.
If I am hearing and understanding this right then this is absolute dynamite news that goes against so much we have always heard. Also, I cant be bothered to go read reasearch papers but I hope some of those other famous "science based" channels cover this and confirm it too.
there's definitely a mood effect if you are hypogonadal and get into a normal range, but the question is what happens when you go from normal to supraphysiological? My own anecdote is that when I have done 500mg of test a week I did not feel more aggressive or in any way better than when I take my normal 100mg a week. But 100mg a week compared to not taking it when I was well below normal range, I can definitely feel a mood effect.
Are you sure these stats are correct? Having just re-watched Jeff Nippards effect of Steroids he states the 1996 study training only gained 4.4lbs, steroids + no training was 7lbs and steroids + training gained 13.4. If steroids had no effect on training surely the average gained would be only 11.4. That study suggests steroids not only give you muscle but also contributed to gains made by training. It was 2lbs extra or 17.5%. Surely 17.5% extra isnt statistically insignificant? It seems you and Jeff are interpreting the data differently?? Or one is deliberately misleading for clicks
I think that the "myth" part was that T helps you build muscle, whereas in actual fact the T will induce growth in addition to (or in the absence of) training. The T causes some growth all by itself, it doesn't make the training "more effective".
@@ropableIn Jeffs video its saying that Menno is wrong. The study Jeff quotes says steroids + training together is more effective by 17.5% than adding up the gains made by training alone or steroids alone. Either Jeff or Menno has to be wrong
The TE group got stronger faster while starting at a lower baseline and not catching up to any except one measure compared to the E group. They started out smaller and were still smaller, started out weaker and were still weaker except for bench press ending up equal. And it's pretty likely that the muscles of the TE group were holding more water and glycogen due to the faster increases in mechanical tension in comparison. I think the study should have been longer than 10 weeks because it's not quite enough time to see appreciable muscle gains outside of swelling and nutrient partitioning. It would be nice to see what the changes were between the two groups after the TE group stops test and then how they compare with just exercise.
So taking test just increases your natural potential? And you grow more muscle if you train but also if you won't? And how you train doest really matter?
What I don't understand is how the extra muscle mass is not adding to more strength followed by more gains? In my mind the additive effect should be that you gain more muscle over time because you have more mass overall
The test exercise group did get stronger faster but they started at lower baselines and never reached the same measures as the exercise group except bench strength.
It's interesting that there is no synergistic effect between training and using testosterone when following (I'm assuming) identical programs. However I would still expect that the recovery benefits of testosterone would enable one to train harder and/or more frequently, thus improving overall gains. Or are the recovery benefits also overblown?
This is why some men in their teens or their 20s have better body without exercise? This need an extra video for the gain rate, how much muscle can you build and how much muscle lose after stop trt. So the people who say ,i only take trt and it's nothing ,they are deceiving us?
I had really low test at one point, I felt like crap but it didnt diminish my gains or strength. in my avatar photo that's me at only 9. something nmol
This is wild. Especially the knowing if you're on or not. I always thought i was more focused, clear, assertive when i was on. Maybe the mental comes from visual positive body comp changes
Don't agree with point 2. In my early 60s I felt a huge change over about 6 months, sleep was worse, didn't feel like going to the gym and when I did recovery was quite a bit longer. Also started to be forgetful! After about a month on TRT all these things changed back to normal! If Menno meant low test within a normal range then OK but he wasn't very specific on his definition! Lower than normal... I felt it, a LOT!
In going over the research cited here, it doesn’t look like the cognitive effects of significantly hypogonadal men are compared to the effects of testosterone administered to get back into a healthy range. Perhaps I’m misreading, but that pretty much aligns with my experience: that you can’t really cognitively feel normal or high testosterone, but you can certainly feel chronically low testosterone.
This video blew my mind. For almost all myth busting videos I cross my fingers and hope there is at least one thing learned. My jaw was on the floor to see how much I learned from just the first point!
Regarding myth number one... if you added more mass and strength purely from additional testosterone, wouldn't you be able to lift heavier and consequently make more gains from training, thus making it synergistic rather than additive? I'm confused.
There are likely glycogen and water retaining effects from test that compound on those caused by training, which also facilitates strength progress, which facilitate muscle hypertrophy via mechanical tension. So in theory you could increase recovery in another way and make strength progress with that and then grow. Also worth noting that the test exercise grouo started at lower baselines and never matched the measures with the exercise group except bench press strength.
Most of the ppl below claiming that Menno is misinterpreting the study are confusing main effects and interactions. Which can be a somewhat difficult concept.
I don't think one study is enough to rule out the mental effects of testosterone on mood and other mental effects, I'm sorry if I missed something but you said the individuals were given 600mg (which is crazy high even from a gear perspective) and also none had hypogonadism? Question, Have there been any studies on the mood/mental health of individuals treated with actual TRT who were previously diagnosed with hypogonadism? Genuinely interested as I am in all your content cheers
The message being in the nuance, and the comparisons between different groups, it is sometimes a little difficult to follow. Not to hear or to adhere, but to follow. The small animations on the conclusions help a little, but it would have been nice to have a little more complete support at the level of the demonstration.
it helps you recover but it also helps you maintain muscle mass so when you cut down to loose fat you keep more muscle, eventually culminating in you packing on more size when you keep bulking and cutting than would be possible if you were natural.
man this is the most reassuring video i’ve seen in the last couple of years. that is because of the fact that i was struggling a lot for not feeling any mental effect by injecting testosterone, and not even experience those crazy and amazing increase in muscle mass and hypertrophy everyone is talking about. I have started to feel like there’s something wrong and malfunctioning in me… so hearing that testosterone is overrated, and most of the presumed benefit are from the placebo effect… is very reassuring. Thank you for this. Really really thank you.
Also keep in mind that those who absolutely blow up on gear are almost certainly hyper-responders with already good genetics. They’re the 1% of the 1% and it’s unlikely for anyone to be in those categories no matter what they take
@@zachsmith8109i spend really really long time wondering why i just experience modest improvement.. thinking something was wrong about me!! and i tryed to increase and increase the dose to find the magical effect.. bu this magical effect never came!
I wouldnt take Menno's word as completely 100% factual. He does state more test = more muscle. At no point does he say its over-rated. Studies are usually conducted by a small amount of people and sometimes funded by people looking to prove a point. Would you trust a study that said cigarettes are safe if you knew it had been funded by cigarette companies? Why does Dr Mike talk about steroids and almost uncontrollable rage? Greg Doucette mentions this in almost every vid. Why is TRT prescribed by national health services based on symptoms not levels. TRT reddit sub users always talk about treat the symptoms not the numbers. Why would government heath departments recommend TRT if it doesn't work? Just because placebo can work doesn't mean test doesn't - the 2 aren't related. 1 youtuber who makes more money the more views he gets isn't a great way to get your health advice
@@gymstarjb-pp5fj so in one breath you're saying don't trust a UA-camr who earns money through it but you have no trouble trusting the govern-mente healthcare prescribing TRT like candy while we know full well big pharm runs that show? Another case of treating the symptom instead of the root cause as you said?
Three years ago when I first had T checked my level was just below 300. After three months of weekly shots at 100cc per week, my T shot up to just over 900. I felt NO difference. I saw some lean mass gains but I have been a gym rat for many years and don't expect much anyway. The point is, I agree that #2 is a myth. I've been high and low and feel like the same guy. I believe most men (older like me) who claim to feel great once they get on the T are mostly not really feeling any different. I concede I'm an n of 1, so, take it for what it is.
I think it could be a myth 72 still competing in powerlifting competitions at high level, never taken anything but seriously thinking of taking TRT but haven’t done it yet don’t want to cheat my competitors.
So are all of the bodybuilders wrong? Many take a gram a week. Obviously they’re taking other drugs and there are no studies on stacking those drugs, but we know that Bodybuilders roll at a much greater rate than normal people. Is it just genetics food and some juice or is it the combination of everything? This is a fascinating video and I’m just trying to make sense of it. I would love to have a conversation with you about this.
I can attest to libido and test/bodyfat. I had my best feeling and libido and erection quality on low body fat with 20mg propionate daily and HCG EOD, then I gained around 10kgs of bodyweight and libido/erection quality gone. Most probably because I take a ton of hcg and I aromatize a lot more (higher E2)
Can I get some clarification that this is about people with healthy test levels, then taking testosterone, and not on people with deficiencies then having their levels brought up to normal? I think some of this must be related to the fact some of us are deficient, as TRT has noticeably and measurably increased my hypertrophic response to weightlifting, as well as my mood. My pre-trt levels were 8 (and 25 is average for my age) and now they are 16. Basically I trained for 14 years with low testosterone (Well, 1 point above what they'd treat at the time) and gained about 35lb of muscle. 2 years of TRT and I've gained 20lb more muscle.
Completely agree with point 3, however 2 is a bit of a fiddle. You can definitely feel when you are /deficient/, though not specifically if it's low or high I think.
@@MikaMikaMika89 He says that the muscle gained from training and the muscle gained from testosterone are independent. Additive. So you can gain from training, then independent of ongoing training, put on testosterone-induced muscle additionally. I don't get it because so many people also report being able to push much harder during training when on Testosterone so I don't understand how there wouldn't be crossover effects.
Has it ever been studied if the belief or knowledge in one taking testosterone somehow increases the activation of genetic, epigenetic or receptor pathways? Or if such would be the concrete mechanism of the so called "placebo effect" in any case?
Can somebody explain? I don't think I understood. He said testosterone doesn't help you build muscle but then Menno mentions the whole video how having more testosterone means more fat free mass, not that all of that is muscle but I think mostly.
The testosterone doesn’t increase the amount of muscle you get from training. ie no training+test=5kg gain. Training+ no test= 4kg gain. Training+test=9kg gain. So it’s not boosting the amount of muscle gained from training.
@@DaveH1977yet, in the real world, people on testosterone can train more often and harder than their natural counterpart and, because of this, they get more gains from training than they ever could naturally.
The testosterone game changer. I went from 334 to 960 in around 3 months all natural no TRT. This book should be essential reading for all men. Written by a 50s guy with natural T levels higher than most 20s guys Complete guide to testosterone by james Francis
Interesting analysis of the research. I cannot disagree with any of it. That said, if you really want the man juice buzz take Enclomiphene. Just magical in spite of what Menno may think. Of course, at 71 my T goes from hypogonadal old man to 20-something level and I guarantee I can 'feel' the difference and it isn't placebo effect.
@@robbertag808 He literally thinks he can extrapolate 1 + 1 for training + Test. Its ludicrus and you know it is. You think Tour de France racers have been busted with high Test levels to build muscle? No, its the superior recovery you get from it. Typical autism from a guy who have looked the same for 15 years, "science based" nonsense that ignore practical implications.
@2:45 Interesting. So maybe an individual who trains, but has to stop it for a while, say, to do/recover from a surgery for example, may bennefit from taking T while in bed for recovery and don't lose as much muscle mass during this period. Specialy for older individuals, that could be interesting.
the problem is exogenous test shuts down your natural production so unless people want to be on it for the rest of their life you can't really just do a short term test cycle especially if you are older.
Myth 1 makes sense. We pump huge amounts of steroids into chickens to build them up for the poultry industry. They spend their entire lives standing in a cubicle cage eating. They end up jacked with almost no fat 😅😅
Well for people familiar AR with research methods all these research studies are somehow problematic...for example 1.5 grams of protein per kgr is a ridiculous amount for trained individuals to support muscle gain... another example the trading routines followed are quite light for trained individuals to promote muscle mass ...and of course my all time favourite all these studies neglect totally individual differences among target participants...
Shocking part for me, although I should have known it consciously: testosterone and training dont amplify each other. So if youre using drugs, the gains match the dosage. The only way for ped users to keep growing is to grow the dosage every time..
I'm not buying this. Many studies show that test increases muscle size and weightlifting compounds the effects. Gym bros have known this for decades. It has completely eliminated the raging temper I had for 40+ years. Gone. No chance that is from a placebo.
No interaction effect from the exercise, but there has to be some recovery benefit from steroids, which means it does have an affect in a sense, if you can recover faster. In another FFMI calculator I found, they wrote disclaimer which was interesting: 'Past steroid use also creates lasting cellular changes that can enhance your ability to gain and retain muscle in the future. In other words, every pound of muscle you gain while on steroids contributes to your overall muscularity for the rest of your life.' The participants in the testosterone study need to have been vetted for being natty or not, because their potential is different. I would also like to know Dr. Mike's opinion on the mood changes, since he says he feels the real effects like anxiety and dark thoughts while on the stuff.
@@GlacialScion This idea that its all about gains without any effort from Testosterone is probably one of the worst takes i have seen in a long time, and this guy should know much better. To even conceptualize that the benefit from Test and training is separate and its just 1 + 1, its completely ret@rded. Recovery and the ability to train harder is alpha omega and this guy would already know that if he trained high performing athletes.
I'm pretty sure he even mentions that it helps you build up a certain amount of muscle and then you have to continue training to build upon that. The initial phase when taking high dosages, training has very little impact.
I have never seen you make a mistake Menno, but in this video you have. In minute 3, you show the study comparing testosterone + training with no testosterone + training and it shows that the muscle increase is nearly double in the testosterone + training group. However, you're saying that there's no difference.
So more test doesn't help you recover faster between workouts then? I find that impossible to believe. Everyone knows that dudes doing test can recover faster. Also it's about FREE test. Not the level, but how much Sex hormone binding, or sex hormone binding globulin there is. Any study which does not take account of this can be dismissed as poor science. Anyone who thinks you can't "feel" if you are on test has obviously not taken test. Sorry I think most of this is just simply wrong.
“Testosterone doesn’t influence gains” but the more you have the more muscle you’ll have and the higher ceiling for muscle growth you’ll have and you’ll have better recovery. So yeah what was the point of that statement. People will say anything for clicks
what it means it that you can't take a little and out work someone by training, everytime you as individual have to take more to gain more, what you gain from taking is you as individual
Mennoing my henselman till i lower my trt
Lowering your testosterone replacement therapy?
Menno my henselman senpai OWO
😂😂
Henselmanning my menno until i placebo my test gains
Shocked! But is it true? Well, I read the main study, "The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men", and it does not support these claims. The test + workout group gain 6.1kg, the test + no workout gained 3.2kg, and the no test + workout group gained 1.9kg. That means the test + workout group gained an additional 1kg. Also, they fixed the workout to 3 days a week so this doesnt account for higher volume through increased recovery and that you dont get tired in your workout as easy while on test, allowing for higher volume. Increased volume is one of the biggest ways to grow more muscle, which should drive up the difference even more and aligns better with anecdotical reports.
Those numbers…..
Experienced guys gaining 1.9kg in that time period ‘naturally’ is significant. I have so many questions about these outcomes of this study.
If you actually look at the data the test exercise group also got stronger quicker, so that's probably where the extra weight gain comes from, just from higher gains from increased mechanical tension. The test exercise group also started at lower baselines compared to the exercise group and they did not catch up to the exercise group in most measures. Not to mention increased water retention and glycogen synthesis postworkout while on test likely adds more weight.
@@Honest_Max I'd say anyone gaining 1.9kg in ten weeks is significant never mind 6.1kg. You really have to question what these people's training and nutrition looked like before the study and then their nutrition during it.
Menno, would you be open to addressing the points in this comment thread? These appear to oppose some of the video's claims, but we're all open-minded and would love to hear your thoughts on a healthy debate of interpretation. Thanks. @menno.henselmans
so my main takeaway from this is I should just stop training and take TRT
You misunderstood then I think. TRT is low dosages of test, so it will do virtually nothing for you. The more test the more muscle you gain, so you're going to have to take high dosages of gear to exceed your training gains.
The best short way to describe this video is that gear and training both contribute to gains independent from each other.
Gear makes you go up, training makes you go up. Going up in one does not make the other go up in response. It's like having two jobs: an engineering job and a doctor job. Being a good engineer increases your monthly income, but it's not going to make your income from your doctor job go up in response as well. You're going to have to work on that one separately to make its income go up. If you want the highest income, you're going to need both. But once your income is stupid high, quitting your engineering job will cut that part of your income out. It doesn't linger around.
@@ausaevusappreciate the response but I was only being sarcastic
There is something about this that doesn't seem right. First, it's FREE testosterone that's important, not TOTAL test. Second, many of the subjects were not bodybuilders but were people suffering debilitating diseases. Third, the charts at 3:04 don't line up with the claim that exercise doesn't matter when taking test. In addition, a lot of "studies" on gear tend to have low sample sizes because most guys aren't going to join such studies. Plus, it doesn't line up with the majority of anecdotal reports about "alternative" supplements. I agree that all these "Amazon" test boosters are worthless.
"First, it's FREE testosterone that's important, not TOTAL test. "Just wrong. Body transports test via shbg too.
Interesting
I still can't believe Myth 1 is a myth
That's because the myth that myth 1 is a myth is a myth.
@@punxsutawneyphil3944 If the studies he is citing are credible then it is a myth. I cant be arsed to learn to read research papers and go read these papers but someone should and confirm if its a myth infact or saying that its a myth is actually the myth.
Still don't understand it fully also.. So taking gear increases your muscle mass automatically and how you train doesn't have effect?
@@yoyo8564 It more than likely affects nutrient partitioning towards muscle glycogen synthesis and water content.
@@yoyo8564 yes exactly
I went in skeptical, but this is honestly very very good information. In particular, testosterone related gains being additive to lifting rather than synergistic is a big eye opener for me. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense, but it's definitely not how I thought things worked. Great content.
Would you please explain to me this part. English isn't my first language and I just can't wrap my head around what he actually means. It sounds much like " you see, their muscles grew even if they don't train but it's not because of test" what the hell is it from then? I hope I don't bother you, sir.
@@evilmirin1329 his point is that testosterone induced muscle growth is seperate from training induced muscle growth, in this case it being just additive rather than multiplicative. idk i dont really see how this makes any real sense based on anecdotal reports from people running grams of gear
You are welcome to come on the TRT and Hormone Optimization channel and debate me on myth #2 as this is objectively incorrect in real world application, mechanistic theory and a variety of other studies which confer mental therapeutic benefits.
So true, i was feeling depressed and discovered that i have low testosterone… When i started TRT all that sadness went away! I feel so much energetic and confident now…
indeed,
alot of roid users always saying the roids is just 5% its all training and diet lol.
AND Genetics. I have heard guys like Dorian Yates talk about how even in his first year of training with weights, he was better than 90% of actually buff guys he was seeing the in the gym.
Some people's metabolism is inherently more geared towards synthesizing protein and building muscle. Some people are on the opposite end of the spectrum sadly. The 'hard gainers'.
The pro bodybuilders are generally people who respond amazing to training-also respond to gear.
"People that take gear, they just grow. And how they train doesn't influence their rate of gains" - case in point a guy from the gym that only does a bit of biceps curls and bench-press and grew like mushroom.
If high testosterone doesn't have any effect on your mood and feelings, why does low testosterone levels have negative effects? TRT is a thing, and it's subscribed often because of "low energy" and low mood
Deficiency is different, you're failing to meet a minimum requirement.
because the effect comes from low to normal, not normal to high i.e. you don't get an additive mood effect from supraphysiological doses
I think it must be related to the fact we are deficient, as TRT has noticeably and measurably increased my hypertrophic response to weightlifting, as well as my mood. My pre-trt levels were 8 (and 25 is average for my age) and now they are 16.
Basically I trained for 14 years with low testosterone (Well, 1 point above what they'd treat at the time) and gained about 35lb of muscle. 2 years of TRT and I've gained 20lb more muscle. (I posted this again in it's own thing above, since I find myself confused and lacking clarification)
It's important to note that people with almost zero testosterone can have erections and a libido. People with low testosterone often don't know they have it until age related symptoms start happening. I would also argue that desire for sex and erections and erection quality are different things and that testosterone doesn't often help with erections or erection quality your metabolism and blood flow/circulation do.
Because his wording is very convoluted to make it sound more inflammatory. But yeah more testosterone=more muscle relative to the individual.
This was actually very informative thank you sir!
Concerning Myth #2, Menno's title is "You can feel if you have high or low testosterone". But this is somewhat disingenuous because he makes a disclaimer at the end that he is referring specifically to aggression, not energy level or libido. I can attest for myself, anecdotally, that I can absolutely tell when my testosterone is low because my energy and libido are low, and this is backed-up by my bloodwork.
I experience the same.
It wasn't testosterone, but the friends we made along the way.
Another important conclusion of this is that All of the test gains disappear after withdrawel
(and some more cause temporary dipp in your Natural test).
Only exercised promoted gains remain.
Very helpful. Considering trt myself so appreciate the insights. Will watch your other video too.
kinda depressive if you think about it that even your work doesn't matter as much if you got say half of normal range on your natural level of testosterone you can't outwork it.
Thank you. Could you make a video on training splits and training frequency
I have been on TRT for over 9 years now because I lost my testies due to testicular cancer. I am currently on 40 mg per day and I have almost no natural production. I can tell you that I am absolutely affected by some of the side effects. I am much more irritable, more aggressive and have a shorter fuse. I can completely lose my shit when I am stuck in traffic for example, something I did not experience before even though my test level is roughly the same as it was when I still had my testies. Regarding libido I can say that it has increased a lot. I am 42 and my sex drive is definitely higher than it was before. I am maintaining my strength and muscle pretty well and I suppose as I get older my TRT use will give me a slight edge over other men my age.
lower the dose? its pretty high for just trt.
40mg a day? way too high, try 40 twice a week
TRT gives you a massive edge, don't be ridiculous. And hey maybe you are the guy that needs 280 to get to 900-1500 range. But none of the other makes sense. I have not seen guys on 2 grams of gear act like you-unless they were tren or orals users.
@@JoshuaKevinPerry Who would in now better, the guy whose been on TRT for almost a decade or the guy who isn't?
Everyone should copy this video - STRAIGHT to the point, MUCH new information, some humor.
Did Menno just say "wrestle a bus" lol wtf love it
House of Hypertrophy theorised that testosterone raises your baseline level of muscle and training in general adds on the top of it
Yup that's what Menno is saying.
I need to watch again, watched on 2x as going out but I've seen well trained people make definite gains off test, & less than 600...
The idea that taking testosterone to boost it above normal levels does not impact mood and libido sounds so off, based on all the anecdotes. Including among women. But the studies speak for themselves
most people doing steroids are taking more than Test, those other compounds like Tren have a large effect.
He did say it increases libido. But the mood effects of T alone are overrated. This doesn't apply to AAS.
@DCJayhawk57 he said it only increases libido for those starting with low T
I remember a study from the University of Tel Aviv, some 20 years ago, where they claimed that tattoos will hinder hypertrophy due to a negative impact on the nervous system...No Joke!..Point being: Every study is to be taken with a grain of salt!
based on everything pointing to the contrary id ignore the findings of that one study. as per many studies out there which can easily be ignored as you know they are bunk
Also, some men who think they have low testosterone levels (low libido, low energy, depressed, etc) can actually attribute those symptoms to low estrogen levels, not low testosterone. Taking TRT can certainly ease those symptoms, but it does so by converting some of that testosterone into estrogen.
If I am hearing and understanding this right then this is absolute dynamite news that goes against so much we have always heard.
Also, I cant be bothered to go read reasearch papers but I hope some of those other famous "science based" channels cover this and confirm it too.
Anabolic steroids directly are conditioning, so yes, you can feel them, as they are dopaminergic.
there's definitely a mood effect if you are hypogonadal and get into a normal range, but the question is what happens when you go from normal to supraphysiological? My own anecdote is that when I have done 500mg of test a week I did not feel more aggressive or in any way better than when I take my normal 100mg a week. But 100mg a week compared to not taking it when I was well below normal range, I can definitely feel a mood effect.
Are you sure these stats are correct? Having just re-watched Jeff Nippards effect of Steroids he states the 1996 study training only gained 4.4lbs, steroids + no training was 7lbs and steroids + training gained 13.4. If steroids had no effect on training surely the average gained would be only 11.4. That study suggests steroids not only give you muscle but also contributed to gains made by training. It was 2lbs extra or 17.5%. Surely 17.5% extra isnt statistically insignificant? It seems you and Jeff are interpreting the data differently?? Or one is deliberately misleading for clicks
I think that the "myth" part was that T helps you build muscle, whereas in actual fact the T will induce growth in addition to (or in the absence of) training. The T causes some growth all by itself, it doesn't make the training "more effective".
@@ropableIn Jeffs video its saying that Menno is wrong. The study Jeff quotes says steroids + training together is more effective by 17.5% than adding up the gains made by training alone or steroids alone. Either Jeff or Menno has to be wrong
The TE group got stronger faster while starting at a lower baseline and not catching up to any except one measure compared to the E group. They started out smaller and were still smaller, started out weaker and were still weaker except for bench press ending up equal. And it's pretty likely that the muscles of the TE group were holding more water and glycogen due to the faster increases in mechanical tension in comparison. I think the study should have been longer than 10 weeks because it's not quite enough time to see appreciable muscle gains outside of swelling and nutrient partitioning. It would be nice to see what the changes were between the two groups after the TE group stops test and then how they compare with just exercise.
So taking test just increases your natural potential? And you grow more muscle if you train but also if you won't? And how you train doest really matter?
What I don't understand is how the extra muscle mass is not adding to more strength followed by more gains?
In my mind the additive effect should be that you gain more muscle over time because you have more mass overall
The test exercise group did get stronger faster but they started at lower baselines and never reached the same measures as the exercise group except bench strength.
It's interesting that there is no synergistic effect between training and using testosterone when following (I'm assuming) identical programs. However I would still expect that the recovery benefits of testosterone would enable one to train harder and/or more frequently, thus improving overall gains. Or are the recovery benefits also overblown?
Great video, thanks Menno!
This is why some men in their teens or their 20s have better body without exercise?
This need an extra video for the gain rate, how much muscle can you build and how much muscle lose after stop trt.
So the people who say ,i only take trt and it's nothing ,they are deceiving us?
I had really low test at one point, I felt like crap but it didnt diminish my gains or strength. in my avatar photo that's me at only 9. something nmol
This is wild. Especially the knowing if you're on or not. I always thought i was more focused, clear, assertive when i was on. Maybe the mental comes from visual positive body comp changes
Don't agree with point 2. In my early 60s I felt a huge change over about 6 months, sleep was worse, didn't feel like going to the gym and when I did recovery was quite a bit longer. Also started to be forgetful! After about a month on TRT all these things changed back to normal! If Menno meant low test within a normal range then OK but he wasn't very specific on his definition! Lower than normal... I felt it, a LOT!
"a true bro out" love it:)
In going over the research cited here, it doesn’t look like the cognitive effects of significantly hypogonadal men are compared to the effects of testosterone administered to get back into a healthy range.
Perhaps I’m misreading, but that pretty much aligns with my experience: that you can’t really cognitively feel normal or high testosterone, but you can certainly feel chronically low testosterone.
This video blew my mind. For almost all myth busting videos I cross my fingers and hope there is at least one thing learned. My jaw was on the floor to see how much I learned from just the first point!
I would love to know if there are similar placebo effects when it comes to mental drive as opposed to just a perceived physiological effect.
But can you not lift more with more muscle and that effects muscle growth?
Ok, you convinced me, now I need trenbolone.
Regarding myth number one... if you added more mass and strength purely from additional testosterone, wouldn't you be able to lift heavier and consequently make more gains from training, thus making it synergistic rather than additive? I'm confused.
Well, as someone with two masters degree and a PhD, let me clear things up for you : most scientific studies are BS, lol.
There are likely glycogen and water retaining effects from test that compound on those caused by training, which also facilitates strength progress, which facilitate muscle hypertrophy via mechanical tension. So in theory you could increase recovery in another way and make strength progress with that and then grow. Also worth noting that the test exercise grouo started at lower baselines and never matched the measures with the exercise group except bench press strength.
Most of the ppl below claiming that Menno is misinterpreting the study are confusing main effects and interactions. Which can be a somewhat difficult concept.
best myth busting video you've done yet
This is eye opening
I hope someone smarter than him will correct this bs
I don't think one study is enough to rule out the mental effects of testosterone on mood and other mental effects, I'm sorry if I missed something but you said the individuals were given 600mg (which is crazy high even from a gear perspective) and also none had hypogonadism?
Question, Have there been any studies on the mood/mental health of individuals treated with actual TRT who were previously diagnosed with hypogonadism?
Genuinely interested as I am in all your content cheers
Have you found that while “natural test boosters” don’t increase your total testosterone, but can help increase your free testosterone?
The message being in the nuance, and the comparisons between different groups, it is sometimes a little difficult to follow. Not to hear or to adhere, but to follow.
The small animations on the conclusions help a little, but it would have been nice to have a little more complete support at the level of the demonstration.
1:51 Bruh, you know it helps with recovery. So in that sense it absolutely helps you build muscle when lifting since you can train harder.
it helps you recover but it also helps you maintain muscle mass so when you cut down to loose fat you keep more muscle, eventually culminating in you packing on more size when you keep bulking and cutting than would be possible if you were natural.
@@tree4104 Another good point.
Who said it helps with recovery and when?
@@rememberme3762 the bros
@@rememberme3762 Tell me you are an ignoramus without telling me you are an ignoramus.
10:54 No idea why I am laughing so hard at this line, but I am on the floor.
man this is the most reassuring video i’ve seen in the last couple of years.
that is because of the fact that i was struggling a lot for not feeling any mental effect by injecting testosterone, and not even experience those crazy and amazing increase in muscle mass and hypertrophy everyone is talking about. I have started to feel like there’s something wrong and malfunctioning in me… so hearing that testosterone is overrated, and most of the presumed benefit are from the placebo effect… is very reassuring. Thank you for this. Really really thank you.
meditate and manifest
Also keep in mind that those who absolutely blow up on gear are almost certainly hyper-responders with already good genetics. They’re the 1% of the 1% and it’s unlikely for anyone to be in those categories no matter what they take
@@zachsmith8109i spend really really long time wondering why i just experience modest improvement.. thinking something was wrong about me!! and i tryed to increase and increase the dose to find the magical effect.. bu this magical effect never came!
I wouldnt take Menno's word as completely 100% factual. He does state more test = more muscle. At no point does he say its over-rated. Studies are usually conducted by a small amount of people and sometimes funded by people looking to prove a point. Would you trust a study that said cigarettes are safe if you knew it had been funded by cigarette companies? Why does Dr Mike talk about steroids and almost uncontrollable rage? Greg Doucette mentions this in almost every vid. Why is TRT prescribed by national health services based on symptoms not levels. TRT reddit sub users always talk about treat the symptoms not the numbers. Why would government heath departments recommend TRT if it doesn't work? Just because placebo can work doesn't mean test doesn't - the 2 aren't related. 1 youtuber who makes more money the more views he gets isn't a great way to get your health advice
@@gymstarjb-pp5fj so in one breath you're saying don't trust a UA-camr who earns money through it but you have no trouble trusting the govern-mente healthcare prescribing TRT like candy while we know full well big pharm runs that show? Another case of treating the symptom instead of the root cause as you said?
Three years ago when I first had T checked my level was just below 300. After three months of weekly shots at 100cc per week, my T shot up to just over 900. I felt NO difference. I saw some lean mass gains but I have been a gym rat for many years and don't expect much anyway. The point is, I agree that #2 is a myth. I've been high and low and feel like the same guy. I believe most men (older like me) who claim to feel great once they get on the T are mostly not really feeling any different. I concede I'm an n of 1, so, take it for what it is.
Could that be why it's so hard for me to gain fat if my test is close to the top of the natural range?
Why isnt there a page where you can look at the full studys for free?
You could try sci-hub for studies that are not open access.
The end killed me😂
Massive ahahhaahha
I think it could be a myth 72 still competing in powerlifting competitions at high level, never taken anything but seriously thinking of taking TRT but haven’t done it yet don’t want to cheat my competitors.
NEXT TOPIC : DIET ADHERENCE
So are all of the bodybuilders wrong? Many take a gram a week. Obviously they’re taking other drugs and there are no studies on stacking those drugs, but we know that Bodybuilders roll at a much greater rate than normal people. Is it just genetics food and some juice or is it the combination of everything? This is a fascinating video and I’m just trying to make sense of it. I would love to have a conversation with you about this.
I can attest to libido and test/bodyfat. I had my best feeling and libido and erection quality on low body fat with 20mg propionate daily and HCG EOD, then I gained around 10kgs of bodyweight and libido/erection quality gone. Most probably because I take a ton of hcg and I aromatize a lot more (higher E2)
Can I get some clarification that this is about people with healthy test levels, then taking testosterone, and not on people with deficiencies then having their levels brought up to normal?
I think some of this must be related to the fact some of us are deficient, as TRT has noticeably and measurably increased my hypertrophic response to weightlifting, as well as my mood. My pre-trt levels were 8 (and 25 is average for my age) and now they are 16.
Basically I trained for 14 years with low testosterone (Well, 1 point above what they'd treat at the time) and gained about 35lb of muscle. 2 years of TRT and I've gained 20lb more muscle.
Completely agree with point 3, however 2 is a bit of a fiddle. You can definitely feel when you are /deficient/, though not specifically if it's low or high I think.
@@MikaMikaMika89 He says that the muscle gained from training and the muscle gained from testosterone are independent. Additive. So you can gain from training, then independent of ongoing training, put on testosterone-induced muscle additionally.
I don't get it because so many people also report being able to push much harder during training when on Testosterone so I don't understand how there wouldn't be crossover effects.
Has it ever been studied if the belief or knowledge in one taking testosterone somehow increases the activation of genetic, epigenetic or receptor pathways? Or if such would be the concrete mechanism of the so called "placebo effect" in any case?
Can somebody explain? I don't think I understood. He said testosterone doesn't help you build muscle but then Menno mentions the whole video how having more testosterone means more fat free mass, not that all of that is muscle but I think mostly.
The testosterone doesn’t increase the amount of muscle you get from training. ie
no training+test=5kg gain. Training+ no test= 4kg gain. Training+test=9kg gain.
So it’s not boosting the amount of muscle gained from training.
@@DaveH1977yet, in the real world, people on testosterone can train more often and harder than their natural counterpart and, because of this, they get more gains from training than they ever could naturally.
@DaveH1977 thanks for the reply.
The testosterone game changer. I went from 334 to 960 in around 3 months all natural no TRT. This book should be essential reading for all men. Written by a 50s guy with natural T levels higher than most 20s guys
Complete guide to testosterone by james Francis
Insulin builds muscle.
Interesting analysis of the research. I cannot disagree with any of it. That said, if you really want the man juice buzz take Enclomiphene. Just magical in spite of what Menno may think. Of course, at 71 my T goes from hypogonadal old man to 20-something level and I guarantee I can 'feel' the difference and it isn't placebo effect.
3:07 Eh, what are you looking at? ~2kg vs. 6kg fat free mass gain? Stronger on all excercises? Bruh, what are you on about?
Are you drunk?
@@robbertag808 He literally thinks he can extrapolate 1 + 1 for training + Test. Its ludicrus and you know it is. You think Tour de France racers have been busted with high Test levels to build muscle? No, its the superior recovery you get from it. Typical autism from a guy who have looked the same for 15 years, "science based" nonsense that ignore practical implications.
IT'S A MINDSET.
Alexing my Eubanks till I get trt
@2:45 Interesting. So maybe an individual who trains, but has to stop it for a while, say, to do/recover from a surgery for example, may bennefit from taking T while in bed for recovery and don't lose as much muscle mass during this period. Specialy for older individuals, that could be interesting.
the problem is exogenous test shuts down your natural production so unless people want to be on it for the rest of their life you can't really just do a short term test cycle especially if you are older.
Good point, if his claim is correct. It is hard to believe that is has no additional impact on training or at least recovery.
Myth 1 makes sense. We pump huge amounts of steroids into chickens to build them up for the poultry industry. They spend their entire lives standing in a cubicle cage eating. They end up jacked with almost no fat 😅😅
I don’t buy it - how do you explain Arnie, Dorian, Ronnie, Cutler ; NONE of them would have been so big and conditioned without roids
That is very much in line of what was said in the video.
Well for people familiar AR with research methods all these research studies are somehow problematic...for example 1.5 grams of protein per kgr is a ridiculous amount for trained individuals to support muscle gain... another example the trading routines followed are quite light for trained individuals to promote muscle mass ...and of course my all time favourite all these studies neglect totally individual differences among target participants...
Shocking part for me, although I should have known it consciously: testosterone and training dont amplify each other. So if youre using drugs, the gains match the dosage. The only way for ped users to keep growing is to grow the dosage every time..
I'm not buying this. Many studies show that test increases muscle size and weightlifting compounds the effects. Gym bros have known this for decades. It has completely eliminated the raging temper I had for 40+ years. Gone. No chance that is from a placebo.
Sounds like we could all benefit from saline injections we think are testosterone.
yeah that's called religion
Only if you train harder thinking the fake testosterone helps you train harder.
No interaction effect from the exercise, but there has to be some recovery benefit from steroids, which means it does have an affect in a sense, if you can recover faster. In another FFMI calculator I found, they wrote disclaimer which was interesting: 'Past steroid use also creates lasting cellular changes that can enhance your ability to gain and retain muscle in the future. In other words, every pound of muscle you gain while on steroids contributes to your overall muscularity for the rest of your life.' The participants in the testosterone study need to have been vetted for being natty or not, because their potential is different. I would also like to know Dr. Mike's opinion on the mood changes, since he says he feels the real effects like anxiety and dark thoughts while on the stuff.
Deca turned me into a maniac, no doubt.
3:45 Nonsense, better recovery = better potential gains.
This is also how I form all of my opinions. Hit those studies and data with the all-time classic, "Nuh uh".
@@GlacialScion This idea that its all about gains without any effort from Testosterone is probably one of the worst takes i have seen in a long time, and this guy should know much better. To even conceptualize that the benefit from Test and training is separate and its just 1 + 1, its completely ret@rded.
Recovery and the ability to train harder is alpha omega and this guy would already know that if he trained high performing athletes.
@@Deffine You're just continuing to do the thing I was satirizing initially. Not really adding anything to a potential conversation here.
@@GlacialScion You are the one with the useless comments.
I'm pretty sure he even mentions that it helps you build up a certain amount of muscle and then you have to continue training to build upon that. The initial phase when taking high dosages, training has very little impact.
This video was worth simply for the grab life by the cojones ese line!
I can see the dr mike influence
Normally like these videos, but have found none of this to be true (except test boosters)
Henselhandling my testosterone till I science based lift.
Wang et al represent
Great video! Especially final thoughts about working on yourself rather than trying to cheat your way out.
@gregdoucette let's hear your views on this 😮
I have never seen you make a mistake Menno, but in this video you have.
In minute 3, you show the study comparing testosterone + training with no testosterone + training and it shows that the muscle increase is nearly double in the testosterone + training group.
However, you're saying that there's no difference.
Excellent informations as usual, Thanks ! (It would be interesting to have Dr Mike’s answer about the placebo effect about testostérone).
Really cutting against the grain with this one.
I did not see it coming
Lol, I don't understand... I'm not saying he's absolutely wrong, but it makes no sense to me ngl 😅
Another great educational video.
Thx!
07:14 I am Iron Man!
😂
12:58 XDDD Could never be prepared for that.
This is the most confusing video I’ve ever watched.
So more test doesn't help you recover faster between workouts then? I find that impossible to believe. Everyone knows that dudes doing test can recover faster. Also it's about FREE test. Not the level, but how much Sex hormone binding, or sex hormone binding globulin there is. Any study which does not take account of this can be dismissed as poor science. Anyone who thinks you can't "feel" if you are on test has obviously not taken test. Sorry I think most of this is just simply wrong.
Take life by the balls amigos
“Testosterone doesn’t influence gains” but the more you have the more muscle you’ll have and the higher ceiling for muscle growth you’ll have and you’ll have better recovery. So yeah what was the point of that statement. People will say anything for clicks
what it means it that you can't take a little and out work someone by training, everytime you as individual have to take more to gain more, what you gain from taking is you as individual
Is this science as credible as that 1.3g/lb meta analysis trash?
Hamza Ahmed not ghonna like this one
"miff" lol
Another bomb from Milky hansman 🔥