GREAT Video Jason THANK YOU SO MUCH for doing the entire process and your roll out of it was fabulous! You are a real PLUS to the beekeeping community and I hope you continue to bring us all such informative videos. Thanks man! Your work is appreciated!
Jason thanks for the trouble of testing the sumac. I’m with you on this. We’re making SUMAC limonade, it’s delicious and very healthy as well. Well done!!!
Sumac berries have a variety of naturally occuring organic acids in them including oxalic acid. The problem is in producing an effective reliable dosage from a variable source. What you don't want is a treatment tolerant mite or a treatment that is only partially effective. .
Chris Turley if you had any real chance of eradicating the mites that would certainly be true. But since that horse has bolted for the US, the goal must be to help the bees evolve to become tolerant of the mites. And a partial kill should be adequate for that.
I’ve been using staghorn sumac for a few years now. I have low mite counts but I also use OA in the spring and Apivar in the fall. I started using it because I heard it helps keep the mite counts low but honestly I kept using it because the smoke smells better than using pine needles or wood shavings and it’s free fuel. So when doing hive inspections, since you use the smoker anyway, it’s good for a little booster mite treatment!
Or is it just the smoke! Many beekeepers, especially those who use sticky boards, have long known that heavy smoking causes higher mite drops. Excessive smoke disrupts the colony, masks pheromones, and sends the hive into chaos. This you heard as a loud roar from the boxes as you smoked then excessively. During this time the bees will try to return things to normal by rapidly flapping their wings to ventilate the hive and remove the smoke. It is believed that this process dislodges a larger number of mites than normal and takes about 10 to 20 minutes to complete. This could very well explain your higher mite count on the paper. I truly wish you would of used a few other hives as control's, some receiving just pine straw smoke, for comparison. Ideas need extensive testing for effectiveness before being presented to beekeepers as viable, especially new beekeepers. The effective control of mites for all beekeepers is so critical! Thank you for your videos and the time it takes to produce them. I enjoy watching them. Jason, you are a good mentor to so many, let's just get it right.
I'm no chemist or botanist, so consider this assumptions. I've heard people actually make pie with sumac berries and they compare the taste to sweet tarts. Sweet tarts are "tart" because of ascorbic acid [IIRC] (better known as vitamin C, but also used a preservative.) If you've ever eaten enough candy with ascorbic acid, you may have felt your tongue get tender, because you've actually experienced a mild chemical burn. That being said, my assumption is that sumac contains this or a similar mild acid and vaporizing it via the smoker is having a similar, but weaker, action as OAV. Really clever idea!
Thanks Jason, feel ur pain I am next door in Indiana. I planted Staghorn Sumac next to my hives thinking all varieties flower, but alas there is a separate variety of Flowering Sumac that produces nectar during early summer, my bad. I am just sticking with OA Keep up ur work
I've always wondered if the stories were true about the sumac. Thanks for your early experiments. I don't think I would use it as my mite treatment, but as a smoker fuel, which will aid in the treatment. Thanks again for your work Jason
Interesting for sure... There is a bee keeper that I know near Olympia Washington that told me that his bees don't have a mite problem because he traps his swarms in a cedar grove. Then he puts cedar shavings between screens stapled to an empty frame placed in the hive box. The bees will eventually cover the screens with propolis, so it has to be cleaned off occasionally. Maybe there's something to this too?
Thanks for your research! I've also read that sumac makes a good honey and red tinted. I have seed I plan to start the plants here in middle Georgia next year. Again, your insights are so helpful.
Why not precut the poster board? And a small puff of smoke when cracking open between boxes? PS: especially for standard sized boxes, a chainsaw wedge is helpful - when you crack one corner, insert wedge to hold it open while you crack open the other side. Saves bees and easier for you. Also, why not sugar wash instead of the cruel alcohol?
Many years ago, my aunt kept about 5 hives in her yard. She also had a stand of sumac, and the berries were all that she used for her smoker. This was long before varroa mites arrived in the US. I am considering having a hive in my yard, and now I think adding the sumac would be a good idea.
That is interesting. I grow horseradish. I never eat it but maybe that's a good way to put it to use on my hives. How long have you been using horseradish?
I tried a couple times past couple years, another beekeeper told me that he uses this and it works I watched the hive when they smoked it with the leaves bugs were running out
Glad to see you trying this out. Would be interesting to have a control hive set up next to the sumac hive that all factors are identical except the type of smoke used, i.e. same type of hive setup, comparable colony size, amount of sunlight, opportunities for forage, etc. To compare and contrast mite drops on the 2 hives could both rule out the possibility that it's just the effect of heavily smoking the bees, as well as whether or not it is the sumac smoke specifically causing the mite drop. Maybe a few more of us can give it another whirl next season too. And I agree, where's a chemist when you need one?! 😄Thanks for all your info!
Interesting idea. It requires a lot more testing you need to try it in an entire yard smoke half the colonies with sumac and half with burlap over a whole season keeping track of mights on both with alcohol washes every third week. This would give you a much better idea.
I would like to see you start off with multiple hives using different methods to compare the different treatments. I only have 1 hive 2 deeps so I would not be able to do it myself. Here in Pa
@@JCsBees There is always next year. I'm also trying to see how beekeepers around the world treat their bees for mites Trust me they can't afford all these chemicals and equipment we use here in the USA. but they have bees and their bees are health without the chemicals. So they are doing something else Maybe sumac smoke
I hate that YT shows dates on some videos and not on others. I really wanted to know what time of the year you did this. True scientific research dictates that you do an identical hive with ordinary smoke. Who knows? It may be as simple as smoke alone that causes the mite drop. I really appreciate your work.
I meant to get back to you on my Sumac Berry experiment where I made a tea out of it and then made a winter feed with it. I used it on all 4 of my hives, they all survived the winter. All my hives were alive and well in early March, I should have given them a supplemental feed, one of my three starved out in mid-March. I live in Upstate New York, we had a light Varroa load regionally last winter, so it might not be the best indicator. I haven’t treated any of my hives as per Tom Seeley’s recommendation for the long term survival of the bees as a whole. I was able to split all my hives this year. They are all doing okay despite the drought and dearth for a good part of summer.
What a fascinating experiment. I'm not a beekeeper and due to allergy, won't ever be able to, just fascinated by bees in general. Here's an idea: if you question whether it's your bees' genetics that are killing more mites, place those sliding white bottom boards (very cool idea!) under all or many of your hives. That way you'll have that as a control for your sumac experiment: sumac vs. genetics, and you'll then know how many mites are regularly dropping off your bees WITHOUT the sumac smoke. Also, others have added that perhaps it's any smoke in general that could be doing this, since the bees will fan madly for awhile to rid the colony of smoke, causing more mites to drop off. So the idea of using different smokes on other hives might be a good addition to your experiment. I like your imagination, and willingness to do what's best for your bees, sir. New subscriber!
Hi Jason, I think it would be good as a control to do the same experiment using whatever you normally use for smoker fuel to see if the simple application of smoke has any effect as well. Just another data point. Thanks for all you do! Stu.
Sumac fuzzy berries can be very sour when you chew on them. And are pretty good if you like that type of sour. Kinda like wild grape snake tongues or those heart shaped size of clover green leafed plants in the yard deals. Gotta have a lot of citric or other acids.thanks for your testing.
Great video Jason, I hope everyone who are saying try this, do that make their own videos to test their theories I know you can't spend everyday all day long doing tests.
Jason I've been watching your videos lately along with many other bee keeping channels and I love the the cooperation shown among all of you and I especially like the humor shown. I was a bee keeper in the 70's and early 80's and had 31 hives when I had to get rid of them. I had been stung hundreds of times and never a problem but in 1985 I was stung on my hand while cleaning up limbs from a wild cherry tree that were blown off during a storm. It was in bloom and in about 10 minutes I started having a reaction that turned anaphylactic and had to get medical attention. I was told to be very cautious around where bees were and not get stung. That meant getting rid of my bees. During the time I had bees we didn't have to worry about the mites but I have used the sumac berries in my smoker to calm down hot bees. We didn't refer to them as hot but described them as mean as hell. I was wondering if you had heard of this?
Shake the frames through a queen excluder. What are your thoughts on sugar dusting for a mite count? No dead bees, fairly accurate mite count. A screen under the bottom box that only mites can drop through.
The sumac is really good for the smoke. That burn slowly and a long time. I use this all the time. To have a cold smoke, i add a handfull of fresh grass on the top of the sumac. It is very interisting to see how you use it.
@@JCsBees why would they have used it before the time that Varroa arrived in the USA? Was it simply a handy and cheap smoker fuel, of were they trying to kill something else?
Luckily I have screened bottom boards that allow IP boards under them. I found that the oil works really well to count mite drops. The only downside I found is that if I wait too long to count the drop--I find ants on the board and I read somewhere that the ants will eat the dead mites. I was taking counts at the 24 hr and 48 hr intervals for oxalic acid treatments. I'd also love to hear the chemical components of sumac and horseradish, both of which I have in my backyard. Thanks for doing this Jason. In this case, curiosity killed the mites, lol, maybe..........
Interesting experiment thanks for going out there, are you not putting green grass on top of the fuel to cool the smoke? PS You might try icing sugar as a less terminal material for the shake.
I am doing a follow up study right now actually. After I recorded this video my source for sumac berries was mowed so it's taken me until now to further the video series. Video update coming soon!!
Not a chemist, but I agree with you. If someone can do the analysis, it would be worth while. I have hops growing wild on my property. I have to wonder if combining the two would make a difference.
Really detailed, sorry the weather turned before you could follow thru on more follow ups. What if thru a magnifier you were able to capture bees infested, isolate them and watch what happens when smoked with the staghorn sumac? Maybe too complicated but would be interesting to see in a time lapse. Thanks Jason, you always follow thru with such details!
On a more serious note, Malic Acid. Taste your fingers after you pick the stuff, it's just like lemonade. I harvest sumac as a spice for my food, but it's a pain in the butt so unless you really like it, there's not much point. The leaves of the plant should also contain some oxalic and there will be other acids present in the plant, especially in plants that taste sour (The original origins of "acid" meant sour to the taste). From what I've seen on paper, Malic isn't super effective but I think that's what you are seeing at work. Try smoking leaves with the berries, and maybe add some wood sorrel too (high concentration of oxalic acid). Heat plus fresh herbs will release a lot of steam rich with all kinds of stuff. It's really hard to say with smoke though, as you are looking at thousands of potential compounds in any kind of vegetative smoke, including formaldehyde, acetone, vinegar, methanol, tar, etc., but a lot of what is in the smoke depends on temperature, dryness, and other variables. Pyrolysis is fascinating but also incredibly complex.
Hi Jason. Enjoy your videos as always. Upon talking with my mother, who is very interested in bees herself on the Sumac issue ordered me some dried Sumac from the internet. She watched your video by the way too, I have Sumac growing wild around me but don’t know how to identify poison from Staghorn. Any suggestions on where to search this for help? Thanks.
Thanks. I am glad you enjoy the videos. Glad to hear your mom is showing interest in beekeeping, the more involved the better. Here is on decent source that shows the difference in the shrubs www.wnit.org/outdoorelements/pdf/poison_vs_staghorn_sumac.pdf
Surely you must be kidding. They are the ones who have approved the pesticides that are probably a major factor in the problem. Our government is failing at most of the basic tasks it's been entrusted with, justice system, infrastructure, education, so on and on and so forth... Sorry, nothing personal.
My dad used to do something similar to this with Princella brand pipe tobacco to kill varroa. My hypothesis is that they couldn't stand the nicotine fumes in the smoke (nicotine is one of the earliest known insecticides, btw).
Hi Jason, it's July 2022 what's your opinion of Sumac now? If it's working how often do you smoke per hive. And yes I know it is not an approved method of treatment. TIA
Hello Linda, Sorry but I haven't done enough testing to say it does work. I will say that the colonies I have treat with it did survive winter but that could be just luck. Sorry I can't be of more help!
This video just popped up. Ironically, I first heard the sumac idea the other day. I enjoyed this video a lot. My favorite part though was your explanation about why you were using the green alcohol and not the clear stuff 🤣🤣🤣
@Ben Winslow Glad to hear the video found it's way to you. I didn't get to do anymore experimenting this year due to lack of sumac berries but I stocked up this Fall and plan to test more this coming season. Glad to enjoyed the explanation on alcohol. lol
Thanks for a great presentation on this subject. Experimentation is essential and toward that end experimental designs and hypotheses all have to begin somewhere. You've done an excellent job in that regard. One area I am curious about is whether or not you have done a comparative analysis with other kinds of smoke and if you have used control hives where there have been no treatments given and then observed and recorded mite drop across the various treatments you've used. Without some sort of comparative analysis it will be impossible to test the efficacy of the research you are doing. You could be on to the best thing going. It's just not certain yet. And the next thing would be to have others replicate your experiment and see if they have similar results. Similar bees and hives would have to be used I think. For example, bees with a strong Russian influence might be more resistant to varroa than say those with Italian heritage. Thanks for sharing. This is encouraging.
Sumac berries has a lot of citric acid. We used to make pick lemonade using them. I wounder if it is the acidic in them that gets them similar to Oxalic acid?
I would place the cardboard under the wire mesh so that the mites can't climb back up into the hive. Also using a thin film of oil (e.g. Pam spray) on the board helps to retain the mites when dropped.
Paul Staments has mentioned the link between bees and the fungi that live on trees. Wild bee colonies seemed to prefer hollowed out trees that had certain kinds of fungi living on them... Something worth looking into IMHO.
@@organicvids Many shrooms have strong anti-viral properties and boost the immune system (in humans).... so it could be that the fungi are acting in multiple ways to strengthen the bees resistance.
Great video Jason. It'd be worth a try to leave the slide out tray and smoke them from the entrance once. I wonder if a bunch of mites drop when you are smoking the bees and those mites fall to the ground before you get the slide out tray back in? It's just a thought.
What state ,and time of year of vidios would be nice ,,, here we have 2 ft. Of snow , so we are well past fall prep mode for winter ,, but good to know
I don't know what's in that sumac barry other than they make a great lemonade. The indigenous people who lived in the region used them for drinking. So i am sure there is some sort of acid.
I have been using sumac for a few years now as smoker fuel. I have never done a control study for varroa though. Used as a smoker fuel it is of course not subject to EPA regulations for varroa control, just a fortunate side affect. . I spoke to a professor/Master Beekeeper that was speaking at a beekeeping conference here a couple of years ago and he was interested in doing a study. I believe he was from the Ohio State University (Alex Zomcheck)? He might be interested in your findings. He was interested in gathering a group of beekeepers that were interested in doing a more intensive study on staghorn sumac for varroa control.
I need to do more testing. I planned to do more testing this year but ran out of Sumac and my tree didn't produce any berries last year. I currently have a full bucket to test next season.
I’m not sure where I heard it, but someone told me that the stagshorn sumac smoke is the best smoke to use for every aggressive bees. It has a way of calming bees down more so than normal smoke
hi. sumac is not poison we use him in lebanon for his sour taste we mix his dust with thme and vergin oil bake it on dough to make zaatar az pizza its safe to use in place citron lemon
There is a version that grows in the Southern United States that is indeed poisonous. Count yourself lucky to not be anywhere near it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_vernix
The efficacy of using two different application methods (smoking and essential oils) on reduction of Varroa mite infestation level in honey bee colonies were studied at the apiary of agriculture experimental station, faculty of agriculture, Cairo university throughout Autumn 2011 and spring 2012. The obtained results showed that using essential oils were more effective than using botanical smokes as general conclusion, but the most effective application was using sumac seeds smokes which resulted 64.8% (mean reduction percent during Autumn 2011 and spring 2012) followed by eucalyptus oil (62.7%) , mint oil (61.7%) and finally eucalyptus leaves smoke that resulted the lowest percent of reduction (28.9%)
The problem with varois mites is that they are out of reach when developing inside a cell. I think the best time treating with sumac smoke or any other vapor is when catching a swarm or creating a package bee. Without any brood, the mites have nowhere to hide.
I had a old timer tell me to put a rhubarb leaf on top of frames and they Well chew it up pull it through the hive to help get rid of the mites, but he didn't say one way or the other fresh or dried? This man was in his 90's he been gone now for 45 yrs i wished I would of asked more questions. Im 62 now an getting started in to the hobby wish me luck God Bless
Yes, indeed I do. A follower just told me the cause is too much sugar? You ever heard that? I've battled it for about 8 years now and luckily I only have it on my elbows and knees. I've seen it spread on some people very fast. I am not a fan of doctors that's why I haven't ever had anything done for it. Seems they like to push stuff that has side effects and I think I'd rather have the dry skin then some other issue. The follower that said it was caused by sugar said I needed to try to keto diet, he says that will clear it up. I haven't tried it yet but it makes me wonder because I am a big fan of sweets. Thanks for sharing about your wife. I will keep that in mind.
Jason Chrisman definitely not caused from sugar. It’s an autoimmune disease, meaning your body is attacking itself. The only way to clear it up is by taking biologics. Those are the type of medicines that lower your immune system, thus clearing your skin. My wife hasn’t had any side effects from her meds, and like I said, she’s been 100% clear for three years. It’s worth looking into if it affects your self-esteem at all.
Hi Jason, could the smoke be causing the bees to groom more ? I think 3 hives side by side and test smoke with berries in one regular smoke in another and no smoke in the 3rd would have been the way to go but I'm no scientist lol. Interesting find however.
I'm not sold yet that this is a effective treatment. But I do see from your experiment that it is doing something and more testing needs to be done. We all need smoker fuel and sumac seems to work as a fuel. If it zaps a few mites along the way then your ahead of the battle. If it doesn't do anything ( your early results say otherwise) then you still have free smoker fuel and are still ahead. Basically you have nothing to lose by doing this and everything to gain IMO.
Great video I live in Ontario. I smoke my bees with sumac, as once it’s going well lasts way longer than let’s say straw. I usually harves said sumac in winter which has already started up here. In your spring trial smoke one box with something other than sumac. With sumac could be something as simple as a residue is left on bees, which the bees through communal personal cleaning rid the mite off their body’s. Jason how cool would that bee. Enjoy your videos Johnny
I agree and I plan to add more colonies to the test next season. I will be using different smoker fuels also in the test. Glad you enjoy the video. Thanks for watching!
Yes, I was doing a test because for many years beekeepers have been telling me it works as a mite treatment. There could be something to it but it needs more testing next spring.
This guy really deserves thumbs up intelligent talker and knows his stuff , and don't skip and jump and skip and mess
Looking forward to the spring follow up.
Hey Randy
GREAT Video Jason THANK YOU SO MUCH for doing the entire process and your roll out of it was fabulous! You are a real PLUS to the beekeeping community and I hope you continue to bring us all such informative videos. Thanks man! Your work is appreciated!
Jason thanks for the trouble of testing the sumac. I’m with you on this. We’re making SUMAC limonade, it’s delicious and very healthy as well. Well done!!!
Sumac berries have a variety of naturally occuring organic acids in them including oxalic acid. The problem is in producing an effective reliable dosage from a variable source. What you don't want is a treatment tolerant mite or a treatment that is only partially effective. .
Chris Turley if you had any real chance of eradicating the mites that would certainly be true. But since that horse has bolted for the US, the goal must be to help the bees evolve to become tolerant of the mites. And a partial kill should be adequate for that.
thank you Jason, I like your methodology, and admire your commitment
I’ve been using staghorn sumac for a few years now. I have low mite counts but I also use OA in the spring and Apivar in the fall. I started using it because I heard it helps keep the mite counts low but honestly I kept using it because the smoke smells better than using pine needles or wood shavings and it’s free fuel. So when doing hive inspections, since you use the smoker anyway, it’s good for a little booster mite treatment!
Love this
Great methodology. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your findings
Or is it just the smoke!
Many beekeepers, especially those who use sticky boards, have long known that heavy smoking causes higher mite drops.
Excessive smoke disrupts the colony, masks pheromones, and sends the hive into chaos. This you heard as a loud roar from the boxes as you smoked then excessively.
During this time the bees will try to return things to normal by rapidly flapping their wings to ventilate the hive and remove the smoke. It is believed that this process dislodges a larger number of mites than normal and takes about 10 to 20 minutes to complete.
This could very well explain your higher mite count on the paper.
I truly wish you would of used a few other hives as control's, some receiving just pine straw smoke, for comparison.
Ideas need extensive testing for effectiveness before being presented to beekeepers as viable, especially new beekeepers. The effective control of mites for all beekeepers is so critical!
Thank you for your videos and the time it takes to produce them. I enjoy watching them.
Jason, you are a good mentor to so many, let's just get it right.
Maybe you could make your own video using your own advice?
Agree with Thomas Stone. Make your own video.
@@thomasbacon what's your point Mr. Stone ?
Is it that snide comment to constructive respectfully conversation about bees is cute ?
My guess is yes.
Ummmmmm yeah.........I’m gonna have to ask you to come in on Saturday too.......hmmmmmmm ......yeah.....mkay????????
I'm no chemist or botanist, so consider this assumptions.
I've heard people actually make pie with sumac berries and they compare the taste to sweet tarts. Sweet tarts are "tart" because of ascorbic acid [IIRC] (better known as vitamin C, but also used a preservative.) If you've ever eaten enough candy with ascorbic acid, you may have felt your tongue get tender, because you've actually experienced a mild chemical burn.
That being said, my assumption is that sumac contains this or a similar mild acid and vaporizing it via the smoker is having a similar, but weaker, action as OAV.
Really clever idea!
Anonymous... sumac is widely used in Mediterranean countries as a spice, salads and grilled meats benefit this tasty spice....
@Anonymous Thanks for sharing the information it makes since.
Need to hear more about that yota you have there!
Thanks Jason, feel ur pain I am next door in Indiana. I planted Staghorn Sumac next to my hives thinking all varieties flower, but alas there is a separate variety of Flowering Sumac that produces nectar during early summer, my bad. I am just sticking with OA Keep up ur work
I've always wondered if the stories were true about the sumac. Thanks for your early experiments.
I don't think I would use it as my mite treatment, but as a smoker fuel, which will aid in the treatment.
Thanks again for your work Jason
Interesting for sure... There is a bee keeper that I know near Olympia Washington that told me that his bees don't have a mite problem because he traps his swarms in a cedar grove. Then he puts cedar shavings between screens stapled to an empty frame placed in the hive box. The bees will eventually cover the screens with propolis, so it has to be cleaned off occasionally. Maybe there's something to this too?
Maybe place a sprig of cedar on the top bars, like is done with rhubarb leaves.
@@budrogers1065 Didn't know that rhubarb was used that way...
Thank you for trying this, hope to hear more as you learn more. Great video.
Thanks for your research! I've also read that sumac makes a good honey and red tinted. I have seed I plan to start the plants here in middle Georgia next year. Again, your insights are so helpful.
Yes, Sumac does make nice honey. This Staghorn Sumac also used to makes tea. My neighbors make it a lot.
I really glad you tried this, looking forward to more info
Cool... Waiting to see if it works.🐝❤️😀🐝❤️😀
So do I i tried it
Why not precut the poster board? And a small puff of smoke when cracking open between boxes? PS: especially for standard sized boxes, a chainsaw wedge is helpful - when you crack one corner, insert wedge to hold it open while you crack open the other side. Saves bees and easier for you. Also, why not sugar wash instead of the cruel alcohol?
Many years ago, my aunt kept about 5 hives in her yard. She also had a stand of sumac, and the berries were all that she used for her smoker. This was long before varroa mites arrived in the US. I am considering having a hive in my yard, and now I think adding the sumac would be a good idea.
horse radish leaves dry them and smoke the bees I’ve tried it and I’ve seen significant amount mites drop
That is interesting. I grow horseradish. I never eat it but maybe that's a good way to put it to use on my hives. How long have you been using horseradish?
I eat HR small leaves (salad) and fix the root thanks for the idea.
I tried a couple times past couple years, another beekeeper told me that he uses this and it works I watched the hive when they smoked it with the leaves bugs were running out
Glad to see you trying this out. Would be interesting to have a control hive set up next to the sumac hive that all factors are identical except the type of smoke used, i.e. same type of hive setup, comparable colony size, amount of sunlight, opportunities for forage, etc. To compare and contrast mite drops on the 2 hives could both rule out the possibility that it's just the effect of heavily smoking the bees, as well as whether or not it is the sumac smoke specifically causing the mite drop. Maybe a few more of us can give it another whirl next season too. And I agree, where's a chemist when you need one?! 😄Thanks for all your info!
enjoy yours videos...very interesting....my fist year with bees...i am form Canada, Quebec...thank you for your work...
Thanks, glad you enjoy them. Thanks for subscribing! I try hard to produce video worth watching.
Interesting idea. It requires a lot more testing you need to try it in an entire yard smoke half the colonies with sumac and half with burlap over a whole season keeping track of mights on both with alcohol washes every third week. This would give you a much better idea.
Thanks to you I know this works.
I would like to see you start off with multiple hives using different methods to compare the different treatments. I only have 1 hive 2 deeps so I would not be able to do it myself. Here in Pa
I agree testing more than one colony with different smoker fuels would be interesting.
@@JCsBees There is always next year. I'm also trying to see how beekeepers around the world treat their bees for mites Trust me they can't afford all these chemicals and equipment we use here in the USA. but they have bees and their bees are health without the chemicals. So they are doing something else Maybe sumac smoke
Try dried stinging nettle leaves which are full of formic acid.
Formic acid is denatured by drying the nettles. No?
I hate that YT shows dates on some videos and not on others. I really wanted to know what time of the year you did this. True scientific research dictates that you do an identical hive with ordinary smoke. Who knows? It may be as simple as smoke alone that causes the mite drop. I really appreciate your work.
what about using vodka and then its chicken safe?
I meant to get back to you on my Sumac Berry experiment where I made a tea out of it and then made a winter feed with it.
I used it on all 4 of my hives, they all survived the winter. All my hives were alive and well in early March, I should have given them a supplemental feed, one of my three starved out in mid-March.
I live in Upstate New York, we had a light Varroa load regionally last winter, so it might not be the best indicator. I haven’t treated any of my hives as per Tom Seeley’s recommendation for the long term survival of the bees as a whole.
I was able to split all my hives this year. They are all doing okay despite the drought and dearth for a good part of summer.
What a fascinating experiment. I'm not a beekeeper and due to allergy, won't ever be able to, just fascinated by bees in general. Here's an idea: if you question whether it's your bees' genetics that are killing more mites, place those sliding white bottom boards (very cool idea!) under all or many of your hives. That way you'll have that as a control for your sumac experiment: sumac vs. genetics, and you'll then know how many mites are regularly dropping off your bees WITHOUT the sumac smoke. Also, others have added that perhaps it's any smoke in general that could be doing this, since the bees will fan madly for awhile to rid the colony of smoke, causing more mites to drop off. So the idea of using different smokes on other hives might be a good addition to your experiment. I like your imagination, and willingness to do what's best for your bees, sir. New subscriber!
Hi Jason, I think it would be good as a control to do the same experiment using whatever you normally use for smoker fuel to see if the simple application of smoke has any effect as well. Just another data point. Thanks for all you do! Stu.
I agree, Stu. I plan to use more colonies in the experiment next season and different smoker fuels. Should be interesting. Thanks for the input!
hello what other plants do you recommend for varroa mate
Sumac fuzzy berries can be very sour when you chew on them. And are pretty good if you like that type of sour. Kinda like wild grape snake tongues or those heart shaped size of clover green leafed plants in the yard deals. Gotta have a lot of citric or other acids.thanks for your testing.
Nice video! My apiary is surrounded by sumac and I use it often. I will check it out next season! Thanks!
How do you tell the difference between staghorn and poison sumac?
Fantastic. Thanks Jadon. I'll be using sumac since it free fuel.
Great video Jason, I hope everyone who are saying try this, do that make their own videos to test their theories I know you can't spend everyday all day long doing tests.
Very interesting Jason - you are a pro!
I've wondered about sumac as a nectar source. Had not heard of treating. Thyme patch surrounding the hives?
Sumac is a great nectar source. Not sure if a thyme planted around hives would be helpful or not, worth trying though.
Jason I've been watching your videos lately along with many other bee keeping channels and I love the the cooperation shown among all of you and I especially like the humor shown. I was a bee keeper in the 70's and early 80's and had 31 hives when I had to get rid of them. I had been stung hundreds of times and never a problem but in 1985 I was stung on my hand while cleaning up limbs from a wild cherry tree that were blown off during a storm. It was in bloom and in about 10 minutes I started having a reaction that turned anaphylactic and had to get medical attention. I was told to be very cautious around where bees were and not get stung. That meant getting rid of my bees. During the time I had bees we didn't have to worry about the mites but I have used the sumac berries in my smoker to calm down hot bees. We didn't refer to them as hot but described them as mean as hell. I was wondering if you had heard of this?
Shake the frames through a queen excluder. What are your thoughts on sugar dusting for a mite count? No dead bees, fairly accurate mite count. A screen under the bottom box that only mites can drop through.
The sumac is really good for the smoke. That burn slowly and a long time.
I use this all the time. To have a cold smoke, i add a handfull of fresh grass on the top of the sumac.
It is very interisting to see how you use it.
What is the action of the toxins that kill the mites? How do you know you are not causing damage to your bees?
I guess I am going by all the people over the years that swear by using sumac as smoker fuel.
@@JCsBees why would they have used it before the time that Varroa arrived in the USA? Was it simply a handy and cheap smoker fuel, of were they trying to kill something else?
Luckily I have screened bottom boards that allow IP boards under them. I found that the oil works really well to count mite drops. The only downside I found is that if I wait too long to count the drop--I find ants on the board and I read somewhere that the ants will eat the dead mites. I was taking counts at the 24 hr and 48 hr intervals for oxalic acid treatments. I'd also love to hear the chemical components of sumac and horseradish, both of which I have in my backyard. Thanks for doing this Jason. In this case, curiosity killed the mites, lol, maybe..........
Glad you enjoyed the video and I have also heard Black Walnut leaves work.
Interesting experiment thanks for going out there, are you not putting green grass on top of the fuel to cool the smoke?
PS
You might try icing sugar as a less terminal material for the shake.
A fellow in our local club says back in his home country of Turkey they use oregano in their smoker to control mites.
Did you ever follow up this video? I never saw a follow-up video
I am doing a follow up study right now actually. After I recorded this video my source for sumac berries was mowed so it's taken me until now to further the video series. Video update coming soon!!
Hi I use plastic corflut on hive floor ,the bees walk on.count varroa ,can coat with cooking oil ,if you want too.
Great video, Continue you're testing & look forward to a future video!
Great video JC 👍
The black chicken in the background what kind is it
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australorp
Not a chemist, but I agree with you. If someone can do the analysis, it would be worth while. I have hops growing wild on my property. I have to wonder if combining the two would make a difference.
Did you check out the staghorn sumac essential oils?
I have not checked into it yet but I will.
Maybe rhubarb leaves or thyme leaves?
I’ve used sumac for years and have never had mite issues
Really detailed, sorry the weather turned before you could follow thru on more follow ups. What if thru a magnifier you were able to capture bees infested, isolate them and watch what happens when smoked with the staghorn sumac? Maybe too complicated but would be interesting to see in a time lapse. Thanks Jason, you always follow thru with such details!
I like the idea of watching the bees as I smoke with sumac. You never know maybe we would see mites falling or bees shaking them off.
On a more serious note, Malic Acid. Taste your fingers after you pick the stuff, it's just like lemonade. I harvest sumac as a spice for my food, but it's a pain in the butt so unless you really like it, there's not much point. The leaves of the plant should also contain some oxalic and there will be other acids present in the plant, especially in plants that taste sour (The original origins of "acid" meant sour to the taste). From what I've seen on paper, Malic isn't super effective but I think that's what you are seeing at work. Try smoking leaves with the berries, and maybe add some wood sorrel too (high concentration of oxalic acid). Heat plus fresh herbs will release a lot of steam rich with all kinds of stuff. It's really hard to say with smoke though, as you are looking at thousands of potential compounds in any kind of vegetative smoke, including formaldehyde, acetone, vinegar, methanol, tar, etc., but a lot of what is in the smoke depends on temperature, dryness, and other variables. Pyrolysis is fascinating but also incredibly complex.
Why don't you use the powder sugar method to check the bees for mites??
Thanks Jason, very interesting.
Hi Jason. Enjoy your videos as always. Upon talking with my mother, who is very interested in bees herself on the Sumac issue ordered me some dried Sumac from the internet. She watched your video by the way too, I have Sumac growing wild around me but don’t know how to identify poison from Staghorn. Any suggestions on where to search this for help? Thanks.
Thanks. I am glad you enjoy the videos. Glad to hear your mom is showing interest in beekeeping, the more involved the better. Here is on decent source that shows the difference in the shrubs www.wnit.org/outdoorelements/pdf/poison_vs_staghorn_sumac.pdf
the government must place such a research at universities!
Surely you must be kidding. They are the ones who have approved the pesticides that are probably a major factor in the problem. Our government is failing at most of the basic tasks it's been entrusted with, justice system, infrastructure, education, so on and on and so forth... Sorry, nothing personal.
Great job, i have heard Sumac also calms bees. have you heard such?
My dad used to do something similar to this with Princella brand pipe tobacco to kill varroa. My hypothesis is that they couldn't stand the nicotine fumes in the smoke (nicotine is one of the earliest known insecticides, btw).
Interesting! Maybe I need to test tobacco next year.
@@JCsBees if you do, be sure and make a video of it! I'm interested to see if it actually works as well as he claims.
Hi Jason, it's July 2022 what's your opinion of Sumac now? If it's working how often do you smoke per hive. And yes I know it is not an approved method of treatment. TIA
Hello Linda, Sorry but I haven't done enough testing to say it does work. I will say that the colonies I have treat with it did survive winter but that could be just luck. Sorry I can't be of more help!
Cool 😎 I’ve never seen an all black chicken before..thought it was a black cat 🐈⬛ for a minute🙀
This video just popped up. Ironically, I first heard the sumac idea the other day. I enjoyed this video a lot. My favorite part though was your explanation about why you were using the green alcohol and not the clear stuff 🤣🤣🤣
@Ben Winslow Glad to hear the video found it's way to you. I didn't get to do anymore experimenting this year due to lack of sumac berries but I stocked up this Fall and plan to test more this coming season.
Glad to enjoyed the explanation on alcohol. lol
Thanks for a great presentation on this subject. Experimentation is essential and toward that end experimental designs and hypotheses all have to begin somewhere. You've done an excellent job in that regard. One area I am curious about is whether or not you have done a comparative analysis with other kinds of smoke and if you have used control hives where there have been no treatments given and then observed and recorded mite drop across the various treatments you've used. Without some sort of comparative analysis it will be impossible to test the efficacy of the research you are doing. You could be on to the best thing going. It's just not certain yet. And the next thing would be to have others replicate your experiment and see if they have similar results. Similar bees and hives would have to be used I think. For example, bees with a strong Russian influence might be more resistant to varroa than say those with Italian heritage. Thanks for sharing. This is encouraging.
This would be great news for proplus collectors... it's also good on chicken and stake....
What about Honey Supers? Should they be removed for this sumac treatment?
Sumac berries has a lot of citric acid. We used to make pick lemonade using them. I wounder if it is the acidic in them that gets them similar to Oxalic acid?
Great video
I will give it a test here in the uk.
I would place the cardboard under the wire mesh so that the mites can't climb back up into the hive. Also using a thin film of oil (e.g. Pam spray) on the board helps to retain the mites when dropped.
Thanks for sharing
I eat sumac in some of my dishes II make. I was wondering if Staghorn sumac is eatable Or the sumac I buy in the grocery store is different
I am not sure if it's the same or not. I do know some people make kool-aid or tea with Staghorn.
@@JCsBees it has a sour taste to it like lemon
Paul Staments has mentioned the link between bees and the fungi that live on trees. Wild bee colonies seemed to prefer hollowed out trees that had certain kinds of fungi living on them... Something worth looking into IMHO.
Paul was referring to gut health in bee. Not sure if shrooms help to rid mites, would love to know.
@@organicvids Many shrooms have strong anti-viral properties and boost the immune system (in humans).... so it could be that the fungi are acting in multiple ways to strengthen the bees resistance.
Great video Jason. It'd be worth a try to leave the slide out tray and smoke them from the entrance once. I wonder if a bunch of mites drop when you are smoking the bees and those mites fall to the ground before you get the slide out tray back in? It's just a thought.
you didnt do a base line mite wash??
What state ,and time of year of vidios would be nice ,,, here we have 2 ft. Of snow , so we are well past fall prep mode for winter ,, but good to know
I don't know what's in that sumac barry other than they make a great lemonade. The indigenous people who lived in the region used them for drinking. So i am sure there is some sort of acid.
Why are u testing on small necleus hive not thriving colony?
I have been using sumac for a few years now as smoker fuel. I have never done a control study for varroa though. Used as a smoker fuel it is of course not subject to EPA regulations for varroa control, just a fortunate side affect.
. I spoke to a professor/Master Beekeeper that was speaking at a beekeeping conference here a couple of years ago and he was interested in doing a study. I believe he was from the Ohio State University (Alex Zomcheck)? He might be interested in your findings. He was interested in gathering a group of beekeepers that were interested in doing a more intensive study on staghorn sumac for varroa control.
Kevin, Would you know how I could reach out to Alex? Do you have his email by chance?
@@JCsBees ohiohoney@woh.rr.com (513) 524-9663
@@JCsBees were you able to get in contact with Alex?
Hey Jason, what are you finding with Sumac for smoker fuel. is it cool smoke? And does it help with mites?
I need to do more testing. I planned to do more testing this year but ran out of Sumac and my tree didn't produce any berries last year. I currently have a full bucket to test next season.
I’m not sure where I heard it, but someone told me that the stagshorn sumac smoke is the best smoke to use for every aggressive bees. It has a way of calming bees down more so than normal smoke
hi. sumac is not poison we use him in lebanon for his sour taste we mix his dust with thme and vergin oil bake it on dough to make zaatar az pizza
its safe to use in place citron lemon
There is a version that grows in the Southern United States that is indeed poisonous. Count yourself lucky to not be anywhere near it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_vernix
I saw a video where they used power sugar to do the mite wash. It didn't kill the bees just gave them a power suger all over them.
Very interesting, use this method in Canada
The efficacy of using two different application methods (smoking and essential oils) on reduction of Varroa mite infestation level in honey bee colonies were studied at the apiary of agriculture experimental station, faculty of agriculture, Cairo university throughout Autumn 2011 and spring 2012. The obtained results showed that using essential oils were more effective than using botanical smokes as general conclusion, but the most effective application was using sumac seeds smokes which resulted 64.8% (mean reduction percent during Autumn 2011 and spring 2012) followed by eucalyptus oil (62.7%) , mint oil (61.7%) and finally eucalyptus leaves smoke that resulted the lowest percent of reduction (28.9%)
The problem with varois mites is that they are out of reach when developing inside a cell. I think the best time treating with sumac smoke or any other vapor is when catching a swarm or creating a package bee. Without any brood, the mites have nowhere to hide.
Nettles contain formic acid, rhubarb leaves contain oxalic acid, tobacco contains nicotine which is an insecticide.
I had a old timer tell me to put a rhubarb leaf on top of frames and they Well chew it up pull it through the hive to help get rid of the mites, but he didn't say one way or the other fresh or dried? This man was in his 90's he been gone now for 45 yrs i wished I would of asked more questions. Im 62 now an getting started in to the hobby wish me luck God Bless
A test could be using citric acid in a vapor pan like we use for Oxalic acid.
Does JC have psoriasis? Looked like it on his elbows. He should try Cosentyx injections. My wife has been 100% clear for 3 years now.
Yes, indeed I do. A follower just told me the cause is too much sugar? You ever heard that? I've battled it for about 8 years now and luckily I only have it on my elbows and knees. I've seen it spread on some people very fast. I am not a fan of doctors that's why I haven't ever had anything done for it. Seems they like to push stuff that has side effects and I think I'd rather have the dry skin then some other issue. The follower that said it was caused by sugar said I needed to try to keto diet, he says that will clear it up. I haven't tried it yet but it makes me wonder because I am a big fan of sweets.
Thanks for sharing about your wife. I will keep that in mind.
Jason Chrisman definitely not caused from sugar. It’s an autoimmune disease, meaning your body is attacking itself. The only way to clear it up is by taking biologics. Those are the type of medicines that lower your immune system, thus clearing your skin. My wife hasn’t had any side effects from her meds, and like I said, she’s been 100% clear for three years. It’s worth looking into if it affects your self-esteem at all.
In Iowa
Hi Jason, could the smoke be causing the bees to groom more ? I think 3 hives side by side and test smoke with berries in one regular smoke in another and no smoke in the 3rd would have been the way to go but I'm no scientist lol. Interesting find however.
Thanks !!
I'm not sold yet that this is a effective treatment. But I do see from your experiment that it is doing something and more testing needs to be done.
We all need smoker fuel and sumac seems to work as a fuel. If it zaps a few mites along the way then your ahead of the battle. If it doesn't do anything ( your early results say otherwise) then you still have free smoker fuel and are still ahead.
Basically you have nothing to lose by doing this and everything to gain IMO.
Great video I live in Ontario. I smoke my bees with sumac, as once it’s going well lasts way longer than let’s say straw. I usually harves said sumac in winter which has already started up here. In your spring trial smoke one box with something other than sumac. With sumac could be something as simple as a residue is left on bees, which the bees through communal personal cleaning rid the mite off their body’s. Jason how cool would that bee. Enjoy your videos Johnny
I agree and I plan to add more colonies to the test next season. I will be using different smoker fuels also in the test. Glad you enjoy the video. Thanks for watching!
Why use sumac in your smoker? Is this a natural ingredient to get rid of the mites?
Yes, I was doing a test because for many years beekeepers have been telling me it works as a mite treatment. There could be something to it but it needs more testing next spring.
Maybe try it in vaperzer