I have spent many years being with people that society has deemed to have a learning disability. My conclusion is that these people have been my greatest teachers. Namaste to all those people firsts. ❤
Hey Nate and panel. I do not communicate well but work on it everyday. I struggle with our water abuse on this earth. Currently, I am kayaking from Ashe county NC to Port Eads and documenting my journey. All this to raise awareness of water crisis now arriving in Appalachia. Keep up your amazing work. I am addicted to your podcast, and I often listen to each one more than once!❤
I am in utter awe of the combined humanistic heart and intellectual wisdom that is assembled at your current Roundtable. Collectively they represent the hopes and wishes of probably 99% of humanity. But in our contemporary world, good ideas and benign intentions are little more e
Nate... You, your podcast and your wonderful guests are a planetary treasure. I'm a little sad that I know few people IRL who will take the time to watch and listen to this. I get the vibe that there are many people around the world ARE listening.
You are right Ben. The vast majority of people are just getting on with life within the current system. Until a new system, system change, is actually presented to them as a real viable option they actually don't need to waste their time "down in the weeds" of understanding the problems of our current predicament and system. Unfortunately the current system never likes to be _actually_ changed or replaced so they don't really ever support people such as the 5 intrepid deep-dive explorers in this podcast - or the many many others that are working on this problem. If there was system support for system change things would go much faster, but this just doesn't ever happen. The systems always have egos. They never want to admit that they are the problem, that they are the _source_ of the problems.
fantastic and enlightening conversation. so grateful. ASK NATURE, she always knows..I can't agree more. Get lost, get uncomfortable, find new pathways and open up new perspectives. So good. So inspiring.
As a follower of your channel for a couple of years now, Nate, I really think that these kind of conversations and discussions is vital. Being a teacher working with 15 year old boys at a particular school in South Africa, I find it a huge challenge to communicate the environmental issues (meta-crisis) in its essence without destroying our children's hope for the future! You have some of the most profound guests and I learn so much from you and the likes of Daniel, Rex, Vanessa and Nora. Looking forward to the next round!
It's fine these conversation are vital, but there's so much provoking ideas and complex topics, talking in circles, where do we even begin to implement solutions?
@@danielnelson3136 my personal mission is to reconnect our children with the environment by creating an awareness that we do not stand separate but are part of the ecosystem and that our choices have a direct impact. At the start of our course, each kid gets a seed that he needs to germinate and look after....it's a tiny act but it is real.
@@danielnelson3136If we’re in a predicament we can’t escape, as we’ve painted ourselves into a corner, then there is no amount of solutions that will fix every branch of our tree of life that is on fire. You need to fix the roots of that tree. But we can’t. We simply can’t. Because humankind is in so many different levels of consciousness with everyone saying their way is better and their god is on their side. Billions will die and those left alive will have the deep visceral understanding of what it means to be some of the last humans left. Then, and only then, will they be able to lead in a heart-centered way vs a brain-centered way. Our anthropocentric problem solving brains got us in this mess, but it’s no one’s fault. And if you believe Mother Earth doesn’t make mistakes, if you believe in reincarnation and we’re infinite beings, then there’s nothing to worry about and all you can do is enjoy the time you have here, align with your dharmic purpose, help animals, nature, other people and realize death is just a transition. At least we got to a point where we can stop a meteor from being an ender of Earth. Some argue that needed to happen on our journey. We got to wifi. That needed to happen to (some argue). So we hit two milestones we may have never reached without leveraging fossil fuels. Some argue maybe we were connected with spiritual WiFi during Atlantis or Egypt times but it didn’t last. Some argue Earth didn’t make a mistake with us because Earth didn’t make us (totally) as we are the product of alien interference. Well, maybe they have a plan. And maybe aliens are able to communicate with a sentient earth. As a Scorpio, I keep an open mind and like Daniel says here, the more I learn, the more I am humbled that I don’t know. I just try to keep being a detective who is trying to connect it all, like all of us do. But all we can do is keep talking, and eventually maybe with all our conversations filed into A.I. (a 3rd milestone we’ve hit, albeit it’s not true true A.I.) maybe A.I. can point us in the right direction (I’m not holding my breath, just would be nice if that happened, but yes, Jevons…). I’m just glad Nate had a round table. I’ve been wanting more of these with all the various authors I read. PEACE ✌️🕊️
I hope you allowed your students to listen to this podcast as a group. First just listening all the way through. Then the second time pausing the podcast when students raised issues, questions or had things to express. I think listening together as a group would be more hope-inspiring and hope-reassuring than listening alone in isolation, which so many of us older people do. BTW: tell them there _is_ a solution and that we can all be involved in bringing it into fruition. Being aware of the problem and trying to understand it more deeply _in communion_ as these 5 bloodhounds are doing is the first step in being involved in bringing the solution into the world. Connecting and relating to other people interested in a solution is the first step in bringing that solution into the world. As NB said: its an _ecology_ of communication, its an ongoing interactive emergent process. Your students can be *_in_* the ecosystem of that conversation that leads to implementing the solution. Good luck. Your 15 year old boys are where the hope of our future is, but don't worry, us older guys aren't going to let the side down either.
@@fleetinghopes6448 Main problem with just listening as a group is that it increases group think bias and conformity versus actual independent thinking, or critical thinking. It's not enough to just listen as a group, the person has to actively listen and question what's being said and contemplate the information carefully! This type of group think I see in think tanks and futurism type groups here, is a similar problem I see within spiritualist and hippie circles I visit. We need more critical thinking and independent thinking more so than collective group think.
So very grateful for the evolution of thought unfolding on this podcast. 🙏🙏🙏 I've been very dramatically impacted by environmental pollution. It was a huge wake-up call and once I started turning rocks over began to realize how pervasive abusive relationships are (with the environment, other humans, our own bodies, all life - really). I wanted to add that the context of communication exists in this frame of pervasive abusive relationships. We are very literally all sick with toxins, chemicals, burnout; because we ARE nature and as such our bodies are mirroring the suffering we perceive as outside of our bodies. The anxiety ppl are expressing can come out sideways bc most of us are dissociated from our bodies to a large degree. Trying to rationalize the anxiety, fear, despair...seems like an expression of disasociation. The need to make space for these expressions without over-intellectualizing really rings true. I'm finding so much healing in guerilla gardening with others. It's a healing process for human community, our bodies, and the land. Not speaking and putting our hands in the soil can help so much.
All so true! I’ve found that most relationships, with self, others, and nature, are experienced via projection. Or wrong stories, partially true or partially false stories, mixed with a lot of presumptions and assumptions. This is most obvious and common in what we call abusive relationships. But once you start to see it, it shows up everywhere and in everything, how we relate is pretty much the way that a clinical psychologist would see as abuse dynamics. And working with land, water, being a part of the family of life, truly amazing how many issues, internal issues like mental and physical health, as well as external problems, like relationships, just sort of resolve and clear up on their own. As opposed to spending all that time coming up with complex solutions and therapies to individual personal problems.
Many thought provoking ideas...one that particularly impressed me was near the end when Weyler commented that we believe we "only have 10 years to save the world", etc. And brought in the idea that, in emergency medical books, the first thing to do in an emergency is to "stay calm". Then he.pointed out that if we come to meetings with this "hair on fire" mentality, that we won't really be capable of being effective! Yes! Despite the urgency, without approaching all this in a. mannered, calm way, nothing good can arise. Of course, this is extremely difficult. But wise advice. This particularly rang true for me ...and important! Thanks.
Sure many thought provoking ideas, but where do we go from here? IMHO it's no different from think tanks in different podcasts, no different from Logan Paul's podcast.
@@ThomiX0.0 I agree but it's important to distinguish calm from apathy like emotions such as depression, laziness, boredom, indifference, and emotions very similar to apathy.
Thank you all...So moving, inspiring, confusing and helpful...For starters I think that having watched this podcast I will be relating to my dear husband in a new and kinder way...I truly feel the political polarization these days and this discussion has really helped take the scary edge off of it...Please come back all of you soon!!! 💙
Wonderful togetherness. Attention, as seen in this blog, is neutralising the defence. Attention, does not oppose. Attention, isn't hurting anyone. It cannot.. Attention is the energy of Love. Thanks for charing Nate.
This is all perfect. Just realize we are not here to judge. We are here to learn love and if we get to the point of understanding that, we will all follow the things discussed. We are all the same in consciousness: pure love. Raise your own vibration is the easiest way to help others.
Good evening Nate and guests Yip Yip and YIP. Communication indeed! Super appreciative of your sanity sensemaking brain gym here. Just yesterday I ceased a one sided lengthy communication battle I cannot win. Finally resigned from my mental health nurse post with my current employer after nineteen years. Although resigning/losing still feels a lot like winning, strangely enough. Truly grateful for you guys over passing crazy years. Simply thank you. 😀 💜
It is in interesting to see how your conversations evolve and progress towards practical steps and actions. Highly appreciate the work you are doing! 🙏
🙏💗Yes! That kind of alive, warm, vulnerable communication...yes getting lost to better find ourselves in that emergent relating sphere! Yes to the analogy of the moire pattern! Yes to development of the discernment needed to see through weaponized versions all the while cultivating the authentic use of communicating gifts, style and tools...Big juicy yes!
26:01 "The imposed false sense of separability between humans and the land that creates the conditions for all the hierarchies and rankings of species and cultures and peoples." Great wisdom there!
A thousand thanks, Nate. This episode may be made of words, but it rises above them. It manages a rare thing--getting the masculine and the feminine, the left hemisphere and the right, to dance and play. "Such consultation causeth the living waters to flow in the meadows of man’s reality, the rays of ancient glory to shine upon him, and the tree of his being to be adorned with wondrous fruit." '-Abdu'l-Bahá
yes yes. The dynamic balancing of the masculine and feminine, the left and the right, the analog and discrete, science and religion. We are on the way...
Thank you very much Nate. I am deeply touched as I witness the changes happening inside you, inside these four humans, in this field of interconnected intimate inquiry.
yes, it is "in the air" (not in a disparaging sense! I am also an "aviator"...). And we need to work harder to get it "on the ground". Roundtable processes like this will make it more concrete over time. Only once it is "on the ground" will ordinary people start to take notice, otherwise they are just busy "getting by" within the current system.
Thank you to All! As I was taking in this brilliant exchange of ideas I had some memories or thoughts come to mind like the book "The Silent Language" by the anthropologist Edward T. Hall, and I also thought it might be interesting to have Charles Eisenstein in on this conversation, and I also thought about the 4 types of 'space' including relational space in Japanese language - Ma, Ba, Wa and location space, Tokoro. The indigenous, polychronic or monochronic cultures will certainly add texture to this ongoing inquiry.
It would be extremely interesting and very valuable for the community if someone hosted a conversation between Dave Snowden, Daniel Smachtenberger, and Daniel Görtz. These three bring together unique perspectives on complexity, systems thinking, the metacrisis and cultural evolution that could lead to a really deep, challenging and fruitful discussion. Snowden’s focus on “scaffolding” and his skepticism of holistic thinking would be a fascinating counterpoint to Görtz’s metamodern vision of integrating new cultural narratives. I believe Smachtenberger could help bridge the two, given his work on meta-crisis solutions and civilization design and overall temperament in talks. It’s a conversation that could really push the boundaries of where we’re at, and leave us with some precious jewels by the end of it.
I’m new to watching UA-cam on a 50 inch tv. On that note watching all 5 faces on the same screen. Watching facial expressions and their reactions to what is being said. I loved it. Each context is different. Lately I begin with I know nothing I’m here to learn, I’m not perfect and so is everyone else, only because I want to defuse the talking heads and the motormouths… I want to listen and learn and ask questions…. Only If and when I’m interested. Please keep these up.
I do love hearing about how you guys perceive the world, it's challenges and the way forward, because it gives me clarity of my own thoughts (most align, some don't). To paraphrase Nora...get lost more...use greed against itself
Such a timely, profound conversation presented by five amazing people. I wonder, are there any specialists that can speak about mass trauma healing @thegreatsimplification? Certainly we can strive to communicate better at the individual level. But how can we, as a society, communicate better, as described in this episode, if individual minds are endlessly co-opted by large-scale cultural issues!? Experts on mass trauma healing might have important insight. If we can’t implement responses to communication issues at scale then really this conversation will only be relegated to that of an elite few who have the time and resources as individuals to contemplate and practice meaningful change.
Thank you Nate, Daniel, Rex, Nora and Vanessa. Such an important, raw and humble conversation. You’ve inspired me, again. I support learning in a community of technical professional leaders and see a place for the insights of warm data in supporting connection and understanding between teams & leaders. Also as someone who speaks both in poetry and technical/intellectual language, I appreciated the conversation at the start outlining the importance of creating space for expression in the context of the moment. In gratitude of you all and your significant and timely contributions 🙏
Why are you so easy to be grateful and thankful? IMHO they be talking incircles with these complex ideas and all that, yet I haven't heard a single concrete example and solutions to implement going forwards, so I ain't thanking them until they are clear in what they communicated.
@@danielnelson3136 Hi Daniel, you have a valid point and there is much impatience to find "a solution" that can get us out of our current mess, out of the current broken system. You are the granule-of-sand-to-be-pearl in the oyster that is uncomfortable and must be answered. (Sorry, you don't appreciate "florid language".) A proper solution cannot be found/discerned/proposed until the crux of the problem is truly understood. These galant five are working toward that very deep understanding that leads to the solution. (But (from memory) I think Nate said elsewhere that the solution would come out of a single mind. (A view also held by Jonathan Pageau.)) I am wondering what _you think_ the deep crux of the problem is? What is it that is driving you to seek a solution, listening to this podcast, ? And if a solution _was_ put before you what would *you* do with it? (Perhaps other than deny that it was a valid solution...) That is, would you be _ready_ when the solution came? What would your action response be to that? Would _you_ be helping to bring it to the notice of others (for "evangelists" will surely be needed) to get the critical mass needed to force it into implementation? Like many revelations the solution will come "like a thief in the night", unnoticed and mostly ignored. Will you notice or ignore it?
Please share with enthusiasm of human potential within an act of communication that feels the connections within us all and all subjects. We are designed to feel that flow when we undo the imposed and move with natures ecology, unrestricted by ideals conceived rather than felt. A beautiful example, thank you all. An example of being that brings hope without a task but rather an exploring pilgrimage of life loving love as an individual, as you are, you are all the same reason for being at your very core. Namaste. 🤗
"unrestricted by ideals conceived rather than felt" -> the solution will come when we feel the problem through the suffering and are able to reperceive the world and then conceive of new ideals/symbols/logics/languages/systems that _support_ a natural ecology rather than restrict it. Any system is an imposition, but we can certainly design a system with a much lighter footprint (on the environment and on the people) than the current heavily exploitative one...
Nate said the most important and meaningful thing in his last video, that .. "The SuperOrganism responds." I was completely in shock, bc it's 100% correct, and so simple, but scary too. He has friends who have found small solutions to some of our problems, and are doing their best (me too) in regenerative agriculture, wetland restoration, keystone species reintroduction, etc., but many of those people must work in silence or else ... the SuperOrganism will respond. Ouch. Also, thanks for this amazing video too ... I'm learning a lot, and trying to stay positive.
But how is that the most meaningful thing in his last video? Nate saying the super organism responds? Is that similar to globalism and world order? And because of that, does that mean we as individuals have little input or that it's more meaningless to take individual action and implement solutions?
Yes. The current stability/system/SuperOrganism will always seek self-preservation and see any suggestions of change as an existential threat to it. But we don't need to be individuals fighting against something as huge as a SuperOrganism, thats hitting your head against a brick wall. We _do need_ to seed, emerge and grow a *_new_* SuperOrganism that can eventually be able to win the "hearts and minds" of the people to move over, out of the sinking Titanic and into a new vessel for a brighter future for Humanity. A Humanity gently _within_ the natural process of the environment instead of trampling all *over* the environment.
@@fleetinghopes6448 I partly agree with this, just check out Spiral Dynamics as that modal describes the evolution of human cultural values over time. It's IMHO extremely important though to be able to balance stage green values and way of thinking with stage orange values and way of thinking with the other lower stages of development. I however see more and more we're slipping into group think and think tanks more and less coming up with meaningful solutions through some critical thinking and independent thinking and contemplation of these issues.
Regarding Daniel's initial comments: There is an actual state of awareness, in which awareness is aware of itself as an emergent property of the metabolism and ecology of the whole Universe. This is an experience, not a series of thoughts and words, though clearly invoked by the ecology of this conversation. I am grateful for these greatest teachers of our era, every time this experience arises as a result of their teaching. It is out of this experience of being grounded in and part of all the energies of the Universe that healing will come. More and more people in different ways are arriving at this same experience and connecting with others that know of it.
"awareness is aware of itself as an emergent property of the metabolism and ecology of the whole Universe" -> this is the nascence of the new super-organism/collective consciousness that is needed to move Humanity into a new sustainable perception, full consciousness and ensuing system.
I'm vexed by some of these comments and will comment in kind (when in Roam, ya know?). TGS is one of *the* *most* *important* *media* *projects* BECAUSE it approaches the metacrisis from a physical AND spiritual angle. Left-brained, physicalist, quantifying thinking is a necessary tool to navigate our predicament. Simultaneously, left-headedness is what landed us IN our current predicament. If there's any chance of us passing through this bottleneck it lies in bringing our left brains (science) into balance with our right brains (spirituality). Most media is spiritually vacuous and addresses the world like a machine made of parts. What spiritual media does exist is either ultra-siloed or so "wu" it'll make a viewer gag. TGS does an excellent job of bridging this critical gap. We need platforms where we can acknowledge the physical limitations of reality AND brainstorm *sober* spiritual responses. Some smart person said, "We cannot solve the world's problems by employing the same type of thinking that created said problems." The extent of this hurdle is elucidated in the comments section. TGS appears to draw viewers from many disciplines (which I love). Some more verbose viewers have wandered over from the physicalists camp, the economists camp, and the "I'm in it for myself" prepper camp. These paradigms suffer from "map-before-territory syndrome". As a recovering physicalist, I can tell all of yall: The universe is not an assemblage of numbers, metrics, and things; treating it as such portends our demise. I hope more folks wander over here from the physicalist camp and "see the light". In the meantime, we will need to put up with their comments.
Anthony, you are 100% correct. And this is also so hard to resolve because most people from either side come to it from a very hardened position and antagonism toward the other side. And this problem of resolving/dynamically balancing the physicalist/objectivist view of the world with the (functional/sober)spiritual/subjectivist/processive view of the world is of the same degree of difficulty as resolving the Quantum world view with the Relativistic world view (indeed they are homologues). It was interesting in regard to the Game~B attempts at a solution. To me it seemed that when they had the irreconcilable split between the "woo" and the "anti-woo" groups that that was the end of any hope of finding a solution (from either group). The view that the "physicalist-only" or "rational-only" path would lead to a solution was a path of hubris. The solution necessarily requires *both* sides: physical AND spiritual angles, left-brain and right-brain (a.k.a. language/logic and intuition/the unsaid), masculine and feminine, etc. "The universe is not an assemblage of numbers, metrics, and things" -> this is the "clockwork Universe" arising out of the _Mechanistic_ Enlightenment. You are right. It is time for the world to be seen in a new light. NB's "ecology of communication" is much closer to the mark. Once we can _stir in_ all of the different aspects and wisdom in this group then we will be getting much closer to the solution, _the synthesis_ (in David Fuller's words).
@@fleetinghopes6448 The main issue with Game Theory, with Game A being rivalrous and Game B being more selfless and fair seeking is that that is the way of the world of most of it's history. Game A is more realistic whilst game B is too idealistic to hope for most people going into. Also the binary, literal and oppositionary way of thinking, this black/white type of thinking is more default than you think just because each one of us is an EGO MIND that seeks survival of itself above even other egos. The ego mind is so powerful that even ego exists within hippie groups and new age think types, not just mainstream materialists or rationalists! EGO MIND is YOUR ENTIRE LIFE! EXISTING IN OPPOSITIONS AND DIVISIONS! That's not something to just avoid and sweep under the rug, that's the fundamental nature of YOU EXISTING!
A few of these guests mentioned boundaries and limitations and edges. It's often helpful to consider these as interfaces. In permaculture, the 'edges' are where all the interesting things happen.
appreciating time with this expansive inquiry among so many eloquently posed perspectives… 🐝 the ecology of reflective language creates new layers of potential communication among diverse contexts
Anyway to make these 4-5 humans a regular round table? They are saying everything we are already thinking/sensing and hearing it out loud gives it to life.
Must be why the Haudenosaunee began gatherings and discussion with the Thanksgiving address - in order to start with where they all agree. Gratitude for the many blessings of life.
Thank you Nate and panel members for this insightful conversation. Part of the ecology of communication I'm studying involves analysing how two major media outlets report on topics related to economic growth. My focus is on assessing the balance and accuracy of their reporting, especially in terms of whether they merely promote economic growth or if they also address its drawbacks and consider alternative economic perspectives like Doughnut Economics or Ecological Economics. To accomplish this, I have developed a detailed system to categorise and score various aspects of the news content. This includes quantifying how often they mention the positive versus negative impacts of growth, evaluating the sources they cite (whether they are pro-growth or provide alternative viewpoints), and verifying the credibility of their claims. This process helps determine if the content is simply promotional, perhaps endorsing brands, or if it critically engages with the concept of economic growth. The primary goal is to understand how these media outlets might shape public perceptions about economic growth and its potential negative consequences. By identifying any biases or imbalances in their reporting, I aim to pinpoint areas where media coverage could be enhanced, particularly in integrating broader environmental and social considerations into the narrative surrounding economic growth.
I don't know which country you are in, or which media outlets you're talking about, but I don't think I've ever heard the economic growth religion critiqued on the news (I have seen it in opinion pieces in newspapers). For most mainstream television news channels, for example, it actually sits entirely outwith the boundaries of the discussion. In other words, economic growth is seen as a given, like the colour of the sky, and the only discussion on growth is whether it is currently happening or not. It's extremely strange, given that economic growth has never been decoupled from material/resource use, and there has been no evidence whatsoever that it can be. I deliberately call it a religion, because it's similar to the suggestion that the earth is only 6,000 years old (calculated from bible text, there is no explicit suggestion that this is the case in there). The reality that we cannot have perpetual, exponential economic growth is like some weird open secret that nobody is allowed to talk about. Rather than taking the position "exponential economic growth cannot work on a finite planet", and working out a way to get to something different from here.
We have all been lost together for a very long time. Now apparently is the time to reconvene. Discuss. And that “is “ a pretty good trick. PS when it comes to these discussions, not all I do is listen, I consider. I’m glad you are all out there.
COMMUNICATION AND THE THIRD ATTRACTOR - A few thoughts to add (still in the midst of this wonderful video) on the inescapable topic of conversation: LAU TSU BEGINS: "The Dao that can be labeled/named is not the eternal/persisting Dao." Lau Tsu went on to say that the thousands of actual (non-eternal) manifestations of the Dao do have names. (Daniel just pointed this out at 59:00, along with CS Pearce and Dunning-Kreuger blindness - awesome). 'OLELO NO'EAU (Hawaiian proverb): "Aia Ke Ola I Ka Waha; Aia Ka Make I Ka Waha." (Life Is In The Mouth; Death Is In The Mouth.) Major real-world impacts can flow from our words, and these can be productive (Syntropic) or destructive (entropic). It is clear that spoken words can enliven and that spoken words can destroy, but why? how? BRAINS: McGilchrist's hypothesis about the contrasting abilities of asymmetric animal brains (L-R) includes evidence for contrasting language/communication functions. The Left-brain is more focused on labels, nouns (especially tools), power-relations (hierarchies), logic and abstractions - and is blind to when these conflict with reality. The Right-brain has a capacity for communicating with more holistic and accurate understanding, including the nuance and "opposing" aspects (paradox, contradictions, tensions) of dynamic and sacred living beings/systems. The latter includes metaphor, vocal tone/musicality, and awareness of a shared context between communicating entities. We have contrasting capacities for exchanging information with one another. IMPORTANCE OF CONTEXT: I have been wondering about the significance of space and time (locality-context) in the metacrisis of global industrial capitalism. (Oh Nate and Rex just opened up this issue too - 1:08:00). Historically, a big part of Humanity's destructive capacity has emerged from our various communication technologies (starting with story-telling, then writing, then printing, then radio, and now digital media-comms), which have allowed the separation of information from a particular time and space (decontextualized), as well as the creation of abstracted (non-existent) entities that do not (cannnot) support healthy living relationships. These include concepts/abstractions such as laws/rules, property/ownership, money and contracts - even math, philosophy and reductionistic science. Have these de-localized forms of communication/information contributed to the schizmogenesis Nora mentions (1:16:40) and the authenticity/manipulation challenges Daniel describes (1:30:30)? WORDS, ACTIONS & RESTRAINT: While communication can have powerful life-affirming and life-destroying impacts, it can also be just something to do. Songs, poems, stories and jokes can be playful and enjoyable in themselves, with no material impacts other than helping us to pass the time without having to do anything. In a world full of destructive human activity, helping promote "low-cost, low-tech, low-carbon, low-impact" leisure is a very good thing. While communication in the service of destruction/consumption is mislabeled as "productivity" and "creativity", playful communication is truly creative and productive in that it promotes healthy relations and ways of thinking and allows us (and the rest of nature) to recover, unmolested. LAU TSU RETURNS: "Wu Wei is the main principle of Dao philosophy, which speaks of the importance of achieving the Dao or the Natural Way in all actions and development of things. Without forcing or rushing against the natural order of things to avoid false development and mistakes (wikipedia)." Exhanging playful communication with those in our own here and now context can help us to do so much more by doing so much less.
More from the Dao Te Ching: > A multitude of words is tiresome, unlike remaining centered. [chapter 5] > Those who are quiet value the words. When their task is completed, people will say: We did it ourselves. [chapter 17] > To be of few words is natural. [chapter 23] > Peace and quiet govern the world. [chapter 45] > Let people return to making knots on ropes, instead of writing. [chapter 80] And 'Olelo No'eau: > Nānā ka maka; Ho‘olohe ka pepeiao; Pa‘a ka waha (Observe with the eyes; Listen with the ears; Shut the mouth) > Ho'olohe Ke Pepeiao Nana I Kamaka Hana Kā Lima (Observe with eyes, work with the hands - Listen carefully.) > I Ka Nana No A 'Ike (By Observing, One Learns.)
This roundtable is vital to someone like me(like many others I presume) who struggle with the traps ..there is a fear,fears,of feeling that there is something wrong in Nature..its an everyday ‘fear’ for me,an inability to communicate with others which in my case makes me crystalize my ‘being’ in attraction(magnetic) ..still I struggle to enter in to communication with family and friends who are materially satisfied(apparently) and can only deny alternate ‘takes’ on ecology. Just the word ecology is a roadblock. How to get over or around(or maybe dismantle) the roadblock. I struggle with this need to communicate my love and appreciation of the world around me..but its saddening at the same time because mother nature is reeling..the ‘entitlement’ roadblock is intimidating. Thank You,Nate,and these astute academics(sorry,I search for the right term to describe the roundtable participants). How to shake out the blanket to those who need to hear,see,feel ..Look at the media environment(current politics,massive distraction). How to redirect the dialogue..?? ~ I live and camp solo seasonally,more and more as I age. Silence enlightens but I can feel an energy surge when I have an exchange with another person. Intriguing. But my experience(four months solo camping on a remote Baja beach),the first covid spring(everything was closed down),the natural system there and all the ‘inhabitants’ came forth and I experienced a tremendous love and connection. Few words were exchanged and yet ‘they’ communicated with me. A highlight in my life. I embrace it and try to share it through grace and body language. I’m not sure about the language needed to share the experience with others(people). Interesting,despite the economics and societal difficulties) that said natural experience would happen when the industrial machine was shut down to allow a ‘breather’ in the ‘machines’ of civilization. Curious. ~ All this brought up by your podcast. Excellent,Thank You,Nate,for hosting this vital dialogue.
You mean the roundtable of circular talking and sounding intellectual and complex and keep on distracting me from coming up with specific solutions to worldly problems?
@@danielnelson3136 Daniel, one solution to the distraction stopping you from "coming up with specific solutions to worldly problems" is to remove the distractions from your life. Consider what Ludwig Wittgenstein did in order to get his deepest and most profound work out.
Who has guided mankind? Whose leadership do you trust? Hope, Science and the Limits of Understanding? These are topics I've addressed for activists since 2014 when I heard Guy McPherson first discuss human extinction. I'm working on another one now to say that we're not alone no matter how much we've been abused and gaslighted by this system.
See above. It comes from a way of reconnecting words with the meanings related to the natural experiences with the things of nature the words were originally anchored to. Etymology helps retrace what made language such a brilliant vehicle for communication, built it seems by bout 70 thousand years of crosstalk between humanity’s great explorer diaspora flowing out of the Kenya area of Africa, the earliest explorers much earlier, the flood first to the Middle East then populatations of cultural founders spreading farther and farther East, West, and North, while keeping in touch with their origins.
"Who has guided mankind? Whose leadership do you trust? Hope, Science and the Limits of Understanding?" well, therees no need to go esotheric or wander off somewhere, it IS the violently enforced, mass murdering colonialist/CAPITALISM, an anti-social gewaltherrschafts-system, a bio-psycho-cultural *disorder* that sceams in our faces louder and louder but even these^ kinda genuinely concerned/"deep" thought-leaderist academians peoples subconscious cant handle the actual, plain truth, STILL-
1:03:00 Nate’s comments about the importance of embodied conversations, and earlier in the convo about wishing for a secret camera in a space - and Nora’s note about nonverbal communication - I’d propose anew media format of communion is required. Noticing body language (the space between) is a task for which AI could be far better than us, allowing us further reflection. Resonances can be highlighted for our growth 1:39:20 Nate, pls consider for the next meeting of you 5 recorBing the session *in person*, using something like DensePose to replay the conversation with spatial awareness. Daniel has hinted at times toward the idea of sousveillance tho can't seem to see a way that doesn't end in dystopia - TimBL's Solid protocol may provide a way out; ie for anonymity and radical openness to co-occur.
Nate, Thank you for this incredible conversation. I think this is the most important podcast you’ve done however, I fear it will fly far over the heads of most people. I encourage you to go back and listen to Vanessa’s comments starting at about the 48 minute mark and your response. You completely diverged from the point she was trying to make and went back to a traditional silverback gorilla response to what she’s saying. You are very fortunate to have the capacity to be in conversation with people working on these problems. Many of us who are also working on these problems are not quite as fortunate. However, I think it’s important that you attempt to embrace the point Vanessa was making, in order to have a more approach, and a less intellectual approach to the subject in order to elevate conversations to the next level. It won’t be easy because it will require a level of insecurity and ambiguity which are not supported within our society but if we are to move the conversation forward, I feel it’s necessary. Keep up the good work.
Ps, always really cool to talk with people from parts of the world and cultures, that have been systems thinkers, or wide boundary lens thinkers, since forever.
Great perspectives, much to take in! A ‘secret’ way back to perceiving life with all its connections, things in context, is retracing the still healthy roots of the languages the earliest human explorers left us as very memorable connections. Simply said, it’s that words first developed as references to features of nature and experience, to *anchor* accumulating shared meanings, so, culturally, as great heritable catalogues of ancient wisdom updated with current usage without separation from their roots.… until socially replaced with abstractions, made possible by abstractions being formed without natural context. Much left to explore, that will stick, if we keep branching from the healthy roots.
I consider the ideas presented here of trying to begin conversations with others on non-controversial and diplomatic grounds. I do see the wisdom in that. I have been working on an essay which is extremely divergant from current thinking. It would he very, very controversial! This discussion makes me reconsider even trying to complete this essay snd publish it. Then i also think, on the other hand, sometimes one has to speak one's mind forcefully and even in an abrasive and contradictory way..."CALL A SPADE A SPADE!!!" So l am left wondering how to proceed! But these ideas are golden and very worthy of deep consideration! Thanks.
Considering the direction that so many things today are taking (i.e. racing toward the cliff) there is much divergent (even extremely so) thinking that is required to correct the direction. The problem of how to present that is a difficult one. You need to grab their attention, but not turn them off or be "too controversial" for them. In face-to-face conversations you can gauge the room and find the place to start. As an author you have the luxury of trying different approaches - and they may all succeed! I believe the audience for "divergent thinking/approaches/solutions" is growing as the flaws and problems in the current system and directions is becoming more apparent. Good luck! Or use the hybrid approach: establish common ground and then "take them on a journey" to "a better destination"...
Nate, Here are some topics that might be considered for deeper discussion in your next roundtable with this group. (1) At 1:42:10, Rex offers the advice to ask ourselves what nature would do. It is unclear if this only refers to the physical ecosystem or to the human predicament as a whole. There is probably a law of nature that encourages cooperation in the physical ecosystem, but might there also be a law that only the strong survive? In the human predicament, we need to go beyond values to look at the virtues that comprise those values. Compassion and idealism might outweigh a “let only the strong survive” values approach. Nature seeks balance. In taking a virtues approach to decision-making, balancing in and among virtues is also necessary. Humans are evolving. Humans should be able to analyze more deeply rather than just mimic. Ultimately, the conversation often leads to complex ethical choices. (2) In your Frankly #66, “The Reality Party,” you provide a rather long list of wonderful things you and people in general care about. One, that must be understood in context, was: “We like the freedom to choose what we want to do. We don't want to be told or constrained.” (0:2:44.) Reading a “rule of reasonableness” into generalities is helpful to not waste time dealing with the obvious exceptions involving the extremes of a generality. Yet, some of the public probably takes “it’s a free country” to the extreme, which can be a factor in the current human predicament. Discussion of constraints might be helpful? (3) During the roundtable, there were references to the value of silence, not acting too quickly, and staying calm. A first aid worker knows what to do while staying calm. In a crisis facing the need for timely solutions, where one does not have known and practiced solutions, perhaps a degree of appropriate unease, anxiety, or even agitation might spur faster solution-finding. One needs time to learn, but immediate action is sometimes required. If the house is on fire, going to the library to learn about putting out fires may not be the best decision. It’s about good judgment and common sense based on the particular circumstances. (4) As noted in the roundtable, finding common ground is important when divisiveness exists. How can we encourage people to learn how to have civil public and private debates on tough questions? Ultimately, public debates probably require higher-level national and international leadership. How do we encourage that? Thank you for all you do to make this a better world.
2 cents worth: (1) *_Prudence_* is the “Mother of Virtues” - balance. And someone said: “Balance/Moderation in all things.” If balance is achieved then usually fairness and justice also follow, thus minimising the difficult ethical choices, but these never disappear: it needs to be a _dynamic_ balance and thus ethical choices or discernment are necessary in _continuing to_ determine what the balance should be. Balance is an active process and so some suffering is inherently part of that discernment process. P.S. “nature” can include the entire universe (and beyond), not just physical nature on Earth. (2) “negative liberty” vs. “positive liberty”. And a dearth of “positive liberty” in relation to the Meaning Crisis (or to JBP’s discipline). Liberalism and Capitalism both reject constraints outright. Most Americans seem to reject constraints - “freedom!”. The solution must have _a reasonable system of_ constraints. Nature is full of constraints - and the “beauty and elegance” of natural solutions is often *because of* the many constraints it needs to face and work within. Any new system or _more realistic_ way of viewing the world will involve dealing with constraints sensibly (like acknowledging they exist for a start). The greatest difficulty to introducing any new system (that must have constraints) is that Americans will reject it “because constraints... and ‘constraints’ are ‘communist’…” Any suggestions here? (presuming you are American) (3) “perhaps a degree of appropriate unease, anxiety, or even agitation might spur faster solution-finding” -> I assure you that all of the workers in this new multidisciplinary field working on understanding the problem and finding/developing a solution are _well aware_ of the *urgency* and are _driven by it_ (and it weighs upon them). Nate himself has given up his lucrative career to concentrate on this work. I have also given up a career, income and all that flows from that to devote myself to getting the solution that is most needed in the world. Even so, finding a solution (super-difficult) is _the easy part_ compared to getting that solution accepted and then deployed on the ground in reality where it will actually work and produce the benefits and disaster mitigation and catastrophe avoidance we so desperately and urgently need. One can be calm and work with urgency, although this would take practice and discipline. Uneasy, anxious and agitated solution-finders are unlikely to be _listened to_ considering that we are talking about a new system that will be used to direct the human population of the world (e.g. just as our current system does direct the human population of the world: i.e. Capitalism-Liberalism-Representative_Democracy-Objective_Science in most of the world). (4) Good question! Actually *_having_* “higher-level national and international leadership” would be a great start! I think in the non-Western world they have better leadership, but the MSM prevents the electorates in the West from seeing that good example… Nate and crew are leading by example here. Aspiring leaders would do well to listen to these ecological conversations/discussions… so that they know how and where to lead… I think the idea of having an “ecology of communication” was that it be natural, meandering, getting lost and discovering new contexts in which to view the problem, synergistic, emergent, evolutionary, dynamically unpredictable, responsive to intuition. This approach seems at odds with having a prescribed agenda or points to address, no matter how valuable those points might be. Good luck to all of us seeking and working for a better world.
@@fleetinghopes6448 Your comments are all excellent. On your issue (2) question (constraints are communist), the key is education. Some words have loaded meanings. "Progressive" is generally accepted. "Democratic socialism" works very well in some countries (probably due to their culture of ethics). One issue I have not resolved relates to efficiency. In a "higher-virtue" world, one could anticipate that a single manufacturer, with guardrails and oversight, might be acceptable to preserve resources. In a world built on greed, having 1,000 companies competing for resources to make the same product seems inefficient. Your comments certainly open the door for deeper discussion. I believe there is a need for urgent action. The difficult part is dealing with the parts of the interconnected system that are quite willing to seriously compromise ethics and global resources for short-term gain. My attention is on United Nations reform, which, if properly done, could offer sensible guidance for a sustainable future.
31:47 Authenticity and Profilisity are technologies discussed by professor Hans-Georg Moeller. The topic very interesting. The double bind in authenticity is eye opening.
In my career working with -people i have realized the more I know the more I realize I don’t know which was taught to me by one of my nursing mentors. I think society ignores the wisdom of nurses and still think doctors are the pinnacle of experience when they spend about 10 minutes with people. Nurses talk to people and get to their wishes and desires. I have patients who have such low healthcare literacy that what there doctors say is all Greek to them. We need to think about educating our low literacy community for what is too come in their community ( isn’t it a run away train now?). I try with my people but people at end of life cant make a lot of changes. Think most people don’t function at our educated level of discourse. How can we help them?
Living in a country ruled by civil dictatorship, this conversation is much required for the populace to not be trapped in the circus run by elites, which makes the populace dance as per their "manifesto bubbles"
58:30 if you just shut up and listen more, what is true for you and what you want to say will actually change! This is why I teach music, which is mostly about learning to listen.
Social Contracts are important. That is how society cooperates and keep everyone and everything alright...legitmate constitutional citizens of the world. We are inclusive.
Thank you Nate et al. For the next conversation I would love it if you include Iain McGilchrist’s work. It seems so many of our mis-understandings come from presenting, comparing and fighting over our ‘left brain created maps’ of reality rather than allowing our right brain to engage as the ‘master’. Perhaps through shared ceremony and inquiry into the messages from the ‘unseen world’ that is part of our larger ecology and that are available and waiting to be brought forward.
being presented with a viable concrete *_better_* socioeconomic system will be just the start of the process. The existing system has ruthlessly fought/eliminated any alternatives for centuries. Cuba still struggles on despite its non-stop blanket sanctions from the US, its otherwise very natural major trading partner. (Not that I am saying that any of the existing systems/ideologies are the new solution we need, but that nay new solution will face this same sort of violent suppression and elimination. The biggest problem will be that the people won't even _hear_ about any proposed new system because the existing system censors anything that goes against its single self-serving narrative...) *Collapse* is the answer. That's hard for the people to ignore and difficult for the Establishment to cover up, although they've been doing a pretty good job so far...
I hope you get to our betrayal by choosing abstractions to represent reality. There are BOTH strong patterns AND exceptions, to examine, back and forth, from which we have a better chance to see what we’re doing, which words are still rooted in our experience of nature and each other, and which detach our thoughts and actions from reality, and cause reality to change unexpectedly to put us in hard way, having been misled.
Very insightful. I often think about the limitations of language. I have been thinking about nouns and the role they play in human perception of separation.
@@ReflectiveJourney you could be right. Complexity requires discourse. Perhaps that wasn't always the case. For example, I don't need the word Parsley, it is an abstraction. I know it, I experience it, and I can hand it to someone and they know it too, and they experience it. I experience its greenness. But, because I have the word Parsley, it - the word itself - is almost the conduit with which I experience it. The fact that my Parsley arrives from another country, picked by cheap immigrant labour in terrible conditions, wrapped in plastic further abstracts the association!
@@thegreatsimplification Douglas Rushkoff can talk about General Semantics. David Brown can talk about Nonviolent Communication . Maybe do a separate show for each.
Communications happens on different levels. Travelling between those is a practice of being present and aware of perceptions. Cultural history combined with personal history is too complex. So, unless you can come from a non-threatening aspect both interllectually and physically, that invites an effort to actually talk and listen and perhaps know why. Think about talking to yourself when you first wake up, what is real, and what is a conceptual perception or a desire being created. Being in anothers shoes, empathy can never be complete. It involves that lifetime of being lived within all its complexity. So, just as a newborn exploring the whole without fear, as it gazes into your eyes to know you, that then waits in each moment to learn who you are now. All we can really do is be present, which can be really hard and is like killing the instinctual presevation self, to become thoughtless, to be fearless and open. Our truths are unique to us, but our feelings could unite us all. It just depends on how much something is felt, explored, and the experience percieved of that moment, and you then can observing that feeling, a consciousness watching, knowing, and then empowered. I am. The rest is up to you. Find love, but don't name it. Namaste
Interesting exchange, thank you. I have longed loved the Quaker meme of "Think you may be mistaken" (although I prefer Oliver Cromwell's "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ think it possible you may be mistaken.") That said, I cannot subscribe to the idea of "having no judgement". My favourite writing that speaks to my condition about this is: DON'T BE AFRAID TO MAKE JUDGMENTS We cannot evade the necessity and the responsibility for using the mind to make judgments. It is not a matter of choice. "Life is fired at us point-blank," as Ortega y Gasset said, and there is really, literally, no place to hide. I was discussing these matters with a young man recently and he said, "I don't mind making judgments that involve myself alone, but I object to making judgments that affect the lives of other people." I sympathised, but had to tell him that his reluctance would make it impossible for him to be a second-grade teacher, a corporation president, a husband, a politician, a parent, a traffic policeman, a weatherman, a chef, a doctor or a horse-race handicapper - in fact it would force him to live a hermit's life. We may be reluctant to make moral judgments, but if we ignore that necessity it simply means that we shall make such judgments without being conscious of them. We may be reluctant to make aesthetic judgments, but even the casual observer of our lives, our homes, our manner of expression will see that, in fact, we have made many such judgments - well or badly. We may feel inadequate to the task of making political judgments, but the decision not to make political judgments is a decision with political consequences. So we have not really stayed out of that battle. In short, we must use our minds to judge. We must use them as life requires not where we believe judging is a safe and sound process, but wherever life demands that we judge. The task of parenthood alone forces us into countless judgments that we are not ready for, judgments that we doubt anyone can make wisely. And so it is with the rest of life. It is filled with hazardous judgments. We make them consciously or unconsciously. We make them well or badly. But we make them. It's the mark of a mature and thoughtful person that they see this necessity. They not only see the dangers, but they see that some dangers can be averted. How may they be averted? First of all, by accepting the principle that every judgment is no more than a tentative approximation of the truth; subject to revision. In the phrase "subject to revision" we find the key to a modern role for the judging mind. If we recognise our judgments as subject to possible revision, we shall be less inclined to force them down other people's throats or to back them with bullets. The other major principle in averting the dangers of human judgment lies in the training of the mind. The mind has an enormous capacity for error, self-deception, illogic, sloppiness, confusion and silliness. All these tendencies may be diminished by training, and that, of course, is the function of education. From pp. 122-124 in NO EASY VICTORIES by John W. Gardner. Edited by Helen Rowan. 1968 Harper and Row (Australasia) Pty. Ltd.
VERY timely and helpful! Thanks! There is much to be learned when we gather with all our relations for a deep conversation beyond words. I facilitate a community nourishing program that helps people play with each other and the more than human community through improvisational movement and sound. Perhaps this practice can be taken up by more people.
What Vanessa said about the extended warm data labs sounds just like a tribal community ceremony or sitting in an ayawaska ceremony including the purging. Bless uz all ❤
I saw Joe Simpson, "Touching the Void" author and empassioned Mountaineer, GreenPeace Advocate gave an incredible slideshow in Golden, Colorado in 1991
The value of Ecology and systems and egalitarianism is understood only by a fraction of the people. If around 60% are at a stage of meaning-making that requires ethic groups and domineering authority they cannot accept ecological reasons but what is good for them & ethnic group. If we do not understand & embrace them more comprehensively & compassionately, they will resent and in times of uncertainty will bring down democracy based on equal rights and support a narcissistic authoritarian. We have to value the stage they are and we all used to be. Ir they’ll rebel and taking control will bring down human relationships with nature. We have to help them progress recognizing our failed attitudes and language towards a natural stage of development. Not despising them, recognizing-embracing their partial truths (and ours) while not allowing them to divide political legal world rigidly from equality, nature, and respect
How to be a good steward to our fellow humans… How to be good stewards in a way that isn’t itself narcissistic and domineering? I wonder whether cultivating stewardship of some place (e.g. a small waterfall), generates the capacity for good stewardship of our fellow humans? When we decide to be good stewards of some small place, we may become humbled by our limited agency, and respect the agency of the other beings who co-inhabit the small place. Perhaps this will inspire us to enter into a humble relationship with fellow humans as we walk together towards healing.
Love Vanessa speaking of the shit and the grit that we all feel so ashamed of we have to realise we are already embodying this shit. Mind body medicine demonstrates this.
Then you have to design symbol through pattern and art. Then speak language from the represented patterns as a frame to guide how to communicate with different groups of people. Like the intricate patterns on the interior of churches, meeting houses, temples etc. Every culture has them...even the freemasons and hindu have similar expressions, but then we also have to understand theirs too.
Yes! Women speaking! There are often too few women speaking on UA-cam. Thanks for recognising debates need a gendered balance. The AI arena is especially patriarchal. So limited.
I’m thankful to live in a world where these 5 individuals could find each other and be in communion ❤️❤️
Good vibe, but you do not live in a world..
You are it.
@@ThomiX0.0 we are it all together with everything around us
I have spent many years being with people that society has deemed to have a learning disability. My conclusion is that these people have been my greatest teachers. Namaste to all those people firsts. ❤
Hey Nate and panel. I do not communicate well but work on it everyday. I struggle with our water abuse on this earth. Currently, I am kayaking from Ashe county NC to Port Eads and documenting my journey. All this to raise awareness of water crisis now arriving in Appalachia. Keep up your amazing work. I am addicted to your podcast, and I often listen to each one more than once!❤
You seem to communicate well enough to me!! Good luck with your kayaking journey and thanks for bringing attention to the water crisis!! 🙌👏🙏🛶🌊
I am in utter awe of the combined humanistic heart and intellectual wisdom that is assembled at your current Roundtable. Collectively they represent the hopes and wishes of probably 99% of humanity. But in our contemporary world, good ideas and benign intentions are little more e
Nate... You, your podcast and your wonderful guests are a planetary treasure. I'm a little sad that I know few people IRL who will take the time to watch and listen to this. I get the vibe that there are many people around the world ARE listening.
Brisbane here dude
June in WA here!
South West Slopes, NSW, Oz here too. (used to be in Brisvegas)
You are right Ben. The vast majority of people are just getting on with life within the current system. Until a new system, system change, is actually presented to them as a real viable option they actually don't need to waste their time "down in the weeds" of understanding the problems of our current predicament and system. Unfortunately the current system never likes to be _actually_ changed or replaced so they don't really ever support people such as the 5 intrepid deep-dive explorers in this podcast - or the many many others that are working on this problem. If there was system support for system change things would go much faster, but this just doesn't ever happen. The systems always have egos. They never want to admit that they are the problem, that they are the _source_ of the problems.
fantastic and enlightening conversation. so grateful. ASK NATURE, she always knows..I can't agree more. Get lost, get uncomfortable, find new pathways and open up new perspectives. So good. So inspiring.
As a follower of your channel for a couple of years now, Nate, I really think that these kind of conversations and discussions is vital. Being a teacher working with 15 year old boys at a particular school in South Africa, I find it a huge challenge to communicate the environmental issues (meta-crisis) in its essence without destroying our children's hope for the future! You have some of the most profound guests and I learn so much from you and the likes of Daniel, Rex, Vanessa and Nora. Looking forward to the next round!
It's fine these conversation are vital, but there's so much provoking ideas and complex topics, talking in circles, where do we even begin to implement solutions?
@@danielnelson3136 my personal mission is to reconnect our children with the environment by creating an awareness that we do not stand separate but are part of the ecosystem and that our choices have a direct impact. At the start of our course, each kid gets a seed that he needs to germinate and look after....it's a tiny act but it is real.
@@danielnelson3136If we’re in a predicament we can’t escape, as we’ve painted ourselves into a corner, then there is no amount of solutions that will fix every branch of our tree of life that is on fire. You need to fix the roots of that tree. But we can’t. We simply can’t. Because humankind is in so many different levels of consciousness with everyone saying their way is better and their god is on their side. Billions will die and those left alive will have the deep visceral understanding of what it means to be some of the last humans left. Then, and only then, will they be able to lead in a heart-centered way vs a brain-centered way. Our anthropocentric problem solving brains got us in this mess, but it’s no one’s fault. And if you believe Mother Earth doesn’t make mistakes, if you believe in reincarnation and we’re infinite beings, then there’s nothing to worry about and all you can do is enjoy the time you have here, align with your dharmic purpose, help animals, nature, other people and realize death is just a transition. At least we got to a point where we can stop a meteor from being an ender of Earth. Some argue that needed to happen on our journey. We got to wifi. That needed to happen to (some argue). So we hit two milestones we may have never reached without leveraging fossil fuels. Some argue maybe we were connected with spiritual WiFi during Atlantis or Egypt times but it didn’t last. Some argue Earth didn’t make a mistake with us because Earth didn’t make us (totally) as we are the product of alien interference. Well, maybe they have a plan. And maybe aliens are able to communicate with a sentient earth. As a Scorpio, I keep an open mind and like Daniel says here, the more I learn, the more I am humbled that I don’t know. I just try to keep being a detective who is trying to connect it all, like all of us do. But all we can do is keep talking, and eventually maybe with all our conversations filed into A.I. (a 3rd milestone we’ve hit, albeit it’s not true true A.I.) maybe A.I. can point us in the right direction (I’m not holding my breath, just would be nice if that happened, but yes, Jevons…). I’m just glad Nate had a round table. I’ve been wanting more of these with all the various authors I read. PEACE ✌️🕊️
I hope you allowed your students to listen to this podcast as a group. First just listening all the way through. Then the second time pausing the podcast when students raised issues, questions or had things to express.
I think listening together as a group would be more hope-inspiring and hope-reassuring than listening alone in isolation, which so many of us older people do.
BTW: tell them there _is_ a solution and that we can all be involved in bringing it into fruition. Being aware of the problem and trying to understand it more deeply _in communion_ as these 5 bloodhounds are doing is the first step in being involved in bringing the solution into the world. Connecting and relating to other people interested in a solution is the first step in bringing that solution into the world. As NB said: its an _ecology_ of communication, its an ongoing interactive emergent process. Your students can be *_in_* the ecosystem of that conversation that leads to implementing the solution. Good luck. Your 15 year old boys are where the hope of our future is, but don't worry, us older guys aren't going to let the side down either.
@@fleetinghopes6448 Main problem with just listening as a group is that it increases group think bias and conformity versus actual independent thinking, or critical thinking. It's not enough to just listen as a group, the person has to actively listen and question what's being said and contemplate the information carefully! This type of group think I see in think tanks and futurism type groups here, is a similar problem I see within spiritualist and hippie circles I visit. We need more critical thinking and independent thinking more so than collective group think.
So very grateful for the evolution of thought unfolding on this podcast. 🙏🙏🙏 I've been very dramatically impacted by environmental pollution. It was a huge wake-up call and once I started turning rocks over began to realize how pervasive abusive relationships are (with the environment, other humans, our own bodies, all life - really).
I wanted to add that the context of communication exists in this frame of pervasive abusive relationships. We are very literally all sick with toxins, chemicals, burnout; because we ARE nature and as such our bodies are mirroring the suffering we perceive as outside of our bodies. The anxiety ppl are expressing can come out sideways bc most of us are dissociated from our bodies to a large degree. Trying to rationalize the anxiety, fear, despair...seems like an expression of disasociation. The need to make space for these expressions without over-intellectualizing really rings true. I'm finding so much healing in guerilla gardening with others. It's a healing process for human community, our bodies, and the land. Not speaking and putting our hands in the soil can help so much.
All so true! I’ve found that most relationships, with self, others, and nature, are experienced via projection. Or wrong stories, partially true or partially false stories, mixed with a lot of presumptions and assumptions. This is most obvious and common in what we call abusive relationships. But once you start to see it, it shows up everywhere and in everything, how we relate is pretty much the way that a clinical psychologist would see as abuse dynamics.
And working with land, water, being a part of the family of life, truly amazing how many issues, internal issues like mental and physical health, as well as external problems, like relationships, just sort of resolve and clear up on their own. As opposed to spending all that time coming up with complex solutions and therapies to individual personal problems.
Many thought provoking ideas...one that particularly impressed me was near the end when Weyler commented that we believe we "only have 10 years to save the world", etc. And brought in the idea that, in emergency medical books, the first thing to do in an emergency is to "stay calm". Then he.pointed out that if we come to meetings with this "hair on fire" mentality, that we won't really be capable of being effective! Yes! Despite the urgency, without approaching all this in a. mannered, calm way, nothing good can arise. Of course, this is extremely difficult. But wise advice. This particularly rang true for me ...and important! Thanks.
Sure many thought provoking ideas, but where do we go from here? IMHO it's no different from think tanks in different podcasts, no different from Logan Paul's podcast.
"We don't have time to rush." - attribution not known
You're right, fear is the wrong starting point, and that's wat 'stay calm' does, let fear not create an answer. :-)
@@ThomiX0.0 I agree but it's important to distinguish calm from apathy like emotions such as depression, laziness, boredom, indifference, and emotions very similar to apathy.
@@danielnelson3136 You're right, The attention and passion stays untouched.
I've only watched up to when she said monoculture of language, and I am already encouraged that you are on track: yes, yes yes!
Thank you, Nora & all - such good grappling!
Thank you all...So moving, inspiring, confusing and helpful...For starters I think that having watched this podcast I will be relating to my dear husband in a new and kinder way...I truly feel the political polarization these days and this discussion has really helped take the scary edge off of it...Please come back all of you soon!!! 💙
This dialog is meta and goes to the heart of reality. Language is magic♾️🕉
Terrence McKenna said: "Language is everything". He was pretty close...
Wonderful togetherness.
Attention, as seen in this blog, is neutralising the defence.
Attention, does not oppose.
Attention, isn't hurting anyone.
It cannot..
Attention is the energy of Love.
Thanks for charing Nate.
This is all perfect. Just realize we are not here to judge. We are here to learn love and if we get to the point of understanding that, we will all follow the things discussed. We are all the same in consciousness: pure love. Raise your own vibration is the easiest way to help others.
Brilliant! Your podcast and the phenomenal speakers you have on continue to expand and enlighten my experience of life huge gratitude to all of you!
Good evening Nate and guests
Yip Yip and YIP.
Communication indeed!
Super appreciative of your sanity sensemaking brain gym here.
Just yesterday I ceased a one sided lengthy communication battle I cannot win. Finally resigned from my mental health nurse post with my current employer after nineteen years.
Although resigning/losing still feels a lot like winning, strangely enough.
Truly grateful for you guys over passing crazy years.
Simply thank you.
😀
💜
yes, the world has certainly gotten crazier and crazier... Good to have these 5 and others give us hope that there is some sanity in the world!
It is in interesting to see how your conversations evolve and progress towards practical steps and actions. Highly appreciate the work you are doing! 🙏
🙏💗Yes! That kind of alive, warm, vulnerable communication...yes getting lost to better find ourselves in that emergent relating sphere! Yes to the analogy of the moire pattern! Yes to development of the discernment needed to see through weaponized versions all the while cultivating the authentic use of communicating gifts, style and tools...Big juicy yes!
26:01 "The imposed false sense of separability between humans and the land that creates the conditions for all the hierarchies and rankings of species and cultures and peoples." Great wisdom there!
A thousand thanks, Nate. This episode may be made of words, but it rises above them. It manages a rare thing--getting the masculine and the feminine, the left hemisphere and the right, to dance and play. "Such consultation causeth the living waters to flow in the meadows of man’s reality, the rays of ancient glory to shine upon him, and the tree of his being to be adorned with wondrous fruit." '-Abdu'l-Bahá
yes yes. The dynamic balancing of the masculine and feminine, the left and the right, the analog and discrete, science and religion. We are on the way...
Pulling me out of the wilderness. Thank you Nate. Wow, what a conversation. Please keep it coming. We need this.
It's a pleasure and a priviledge to be witness to such a great gathering of wisdom and I look forward to more. Good work!
Thank you very much Nate. I am deeply touched as I witness the changes happening inside you, inside these four humans, in this field of interconnected intimate inquiry.
amazing the synchronicities as I listen in on this conversation. It's in the air! Thank you
yes, it is "in the air" (not in a disparaging sense! I am also an "aviator"...). And we need to work harder to get it "on the ground". Roundtable processes like this will make it more concrete over time.
Only once it is "on the ground" will ordinary people start to take notice, otherwise they are just busy "getting by" within the current system.
Excellent. Independent thought really speaks truth to power. Sweet dialogue
Thank You for facilitating these conversations. I will continue the rest of the day thinking of life as being a part of a metabolism 😊
Thank you to All! As I was taking in this brilliant exchange of ideas I had some memories or thoughts come to mind like the book "The Silent Language" by the anthropologist Edward T. Hall, and I also thought it might be interesting to have Charles Eisenstein in on this conversation, and I also thought about the 4 types of 'space' including relational space in Japanese language - Ma, Ba, Wa and location space, Tokoro. The indigenous, polychronic or monochronic cultures will certainly add texture to this ongoing inquiry.
It would be extremely interesting and very valuable for the community if someone hosted a conversation between Dave Snowden, Daniel Smachtenberger, and Daniel Görtz. These three bring together unique perspectives on complexity, systems thinking, the metacrisis and cultural evolution that could lead to a really deep, challenging and fruitful discussion.
Snowden’s focus on “scaffolding” and his skepticism of holistic thinking would be a fascinating counterpoint to Görtz’s metamodern vision of integrating new cultural narratives. I believe Smachtenberger could help bridge the two, given his work on meta-crisis solutions and civilization design and overall temperament in talks.
It’s a conversation that could really push the boundaries of where we’re at, and leave us with some precious jewels by the end of it.
I’m new to watching UA-cam on a 50 inch tv. On that note watching all 5 faces on the same screen. Watching facial expressions and their reactions to what is being said. I loved it. Each context is different. Lately I begin with I know nothing I’m here to learn, I’m not perfect and so is everyone else, only because I want to defuse the talking heads and the motormouths… I want to listen and learn and ask questions…. Only If and when I’m interested. Please keep these up.
Conversations like this are good for the soul.
for the Soul of Humanity too.
I do love hearing about how you guys perceive the world, it's challenges and the way forward, because it gives me clarity of my own thoughts (most align, some don't). To paraphrase Nora...get lost more...use greed against itself
Such a timely, profound conversation presented by five amazing people. I wonder, are there any specialists that can speak about mass trauma healing @thegreatsimplification? Certainly we can strive to communicate better at the individual level. But how can we, as a society, communicate better, as described in this episode, if individual minds are endlessly co-opted by large-scale cultural issues!? Experts on mass trauma healing might have important insight. If we can’t implement responses to communication issues at scale then really this conversation will only be relegated to that of an elite few who have the time and resources as individuals to contemplate and practice meaningful change.
Thank you Nate, Daniel, Rex, Nora and Vanessa. Such an important, raw and humble conversation.
You’ve inspired me, again. I support learning in a community of technical professional leaders and see a place for the insights of warm data in supporting connection and understanding between teams & leaders.
Also as someone who speaks both in poetry and technical/intellectual language, I appreciated the conversation at the start outlining the importance of creating space for expression in the context of the moment.
In gratitude of you all and your significant and timely contributions 🙏
Why are you so easy to be grateful and thankful? IMHO they be talking incircles with these complex ideas and all that, yet I haven't heard a single concrete example and solutions to implement going forwards, so I ain't thanking them until they are clear in what they communicated.
@@danielnelson3136 Hi Daniel, you have a valid point and there is much impatience to find "a solution" that can get us out of our current mess, out of the current broken system. You are the granule-of-sand-to-be-pearl in the oyster that is uncomfortable and must be answered. (Sorry, you don't appreciate "florid language".)
A proper solution cannot be found/discerned/proposed until the crux of the problem is truly understood. These galant five are working toward that very deep understanding that leads to the solution. (But (from memory) I think Nate said elsewhere that the solution would come out of a single mind. (A view also held by Jonathan Pageau.))
I am wondering what _you think_ the deep crux of the problem is? What is it that is driving you to seek a solution, listening to this podcast, ? And if a solution _was_ put before you what would *you* do with it? (Perhaps other than deny that it was a valid solution...) That is, would you be _ready_ when the solution came? What would your action response be to that? Would _you_ be helping to bring it to the notice of others (for "evangelists" will surely be needed) to get the critical mass needed to force it into implementation?
Like many revelations the solution will come "like a thief in the night", unnoticed and mostly ignored. Will you notice or ignore it?
Great, simplified, conversation.
Love it!❤
Please share with enthusiasm of human potential within an act of communication that feels the connections within us all and all subjects. We are designed to feel that flow when we undo the imposed and move with natures ecology, unrestricted by ideals conceived rather than felt. A beautiful example, thank you all. An example of being that brings hope without a task but rather an exploring pilgrimage of life loving love as an individual, as you are, you are all the same reason for being at your very core. Namaste. 🤗
"unrestricted by ideals conceived rather than felt" -> the solution will come when we feel the problem through the suffering and are able to reperceive the world and then conceive of new ideals/symbols/logics/languages/systems that _support_ a natural ecology rather than restrict it. Any system is an imposition, but we can certainly design a system with a much lighter footprint (on the environment and on the people) than the current heavily exploitative one...
Nate said the most important and meaningful thing in his last video, that .. "The SuperOrganism responds." I was completely in shock, bc it's 100% correct, and so simple, but scary too. He has friends who have found small solutions to some of our problems, and are doing their best (me too) in regenerative agriculture, wetland restoration, keystone species reintroduction, etc., but many of those people must work in silence or else ... the SuperOrganism will respond. Ouch. Also, thanks for this amazing video too ... I'm learning a lot, and trying to stay positive.
But how is that the most meaningful thing in his last video? Nate saying the super organism responds? Is that similar to globalism and world order? And because of that, does that mean we as individuals have little input or that it's more meaningless to take individual action and implement solutions?
Yes. The current stability/system/SuperOrganism will always seek self-preservation and see any suggestions of change as an existential threat to it. But we don't need to be individuals fighting against something as huge as a SuperOrganism, thats hitting your head against a brick wall. We _do need_ to seed, emerge and grow a *_new_* SuperOrganism that can eventually be able to win the "hearts and minds" of the people to move over, out of the sinking Titanic and into a new vessel for a brighter future for Humanity. A Humanity gently _within_ the natural process of the environment instead of trampling all *over* the environment.
@@fleetinghopes6448 I partly agree with this, just check out Spiral Dynamics as that modal describes the evolution of human cultural values over time. It's IMHO extremely important though to be able to balance stage green values and way of thinking with stage orange values and way of thinking with the other lower stages of development. I however see more and more we're slipping into group think and think tanks more and less coming up with meaningful solutions through some critical thinking and independent thinking and contemplation of these issues.
love 💗 love 💗 love mutual learning of #warmdata
Regarding Daniel's initial comments: There is an actual state of awareness, in which awareness is aware of itself as an emergent property of the metabolism and ecology of the whole Universe. This is an experience, not a series of thoughts and words, though clearly invoked by the ecology of this conversation. I am grateful for these greatest teachers of our era, every time this experience arises as a result of their teaching. It is out of this experience of being grounded in and part of all the energies of the Universe that healing will come. More and more people in different ways are arriving at this same experience and connecting with others that know of it.
"awareness is aware of itself as an emergent property of the metabolism and ecology of the whole Universe" -> this is the nascence of the new super-organism/collective consciousness that is needed to move Humanity into a new sustainable perception, full consciousness and ensuing system.
This is like listening to a thunder storm rolling in on a hot summer day. The words hit me like the smell of rain. Nora at 1:21:00, so good.
I'm vexed by some of these comments and will comment in kind (when in Roam, ya know?). TGS is one of *the* *most* *important* *media* *projects* BECAUSE it approaches the metacrisis from a physical AND spiritual angle. Left-brained, physicalist, quantifying thinking is a necessary tool to navigate our predicament. Simultaneously, left-headedness is what landed us IN our current predicament. If there's any chance of us passing through this bottleneck it lies in bringing our left brains (science) into balance with our right brains (spirituality).
Most media is spiritually vacuous and addresses the world like a machine made of parts. What spiritual media does exist is either ultra-siloed or so "wu" it'll make a viewer gag. TGS does an excellent job of bridging this critical gap. We need platforms where we can acknowledge the physical limitations of reality AND brainstorm *sober* spiritual responses.
Some smart person said, "We cannot solve the world's problems by employing the same type of thinking that created said problems." The extent of this hurdle is elucidated in the comments section. TGS appears to draw viewers from many disciplines (which I love). Some more verbose viewers have wandered over from the physicalists camp, the economists camp, and the "I'm in it for myself" prepper camp. These paradigms suffer from "map-before-territory syndrome". As a recovering physicalist, I can tell all of yall: The universe is not an assemblage of numbers, metrics, and things; treating it as such portends our demise. I hope more folks wander over here from the physicalist camp and "see the light". In the meantime, we will need to put up with their comments.
Charles Eisenstein is the best voice I've found in the ballpark you're describing.
Right, and I'm still waiting on Nate or Daniel Schmachtenberger gicing us some specific and concrete solutions to these meta crisis problems.
@@c3bhm yes CE is good.
Anthony, you are 100% correct. And this is also so hard to resolve because most people from either side come to it from a very hardened position and antagonism toward the other side.
And this problem of resolving/dynamically balancing the physicalist/objectivist view of the world with the (functional/sober)spiritual/subjectivist/processive view of the world is of the same degree of difficulty as resolving the Quantum world view with the Relativistic world view (indeed they are homologues).
It was interesting in regard to the Game~B attempts at a solution. To me it seemed that when they had the irreconcilable split between the "woo" and the "anti-woo" groups that that was the end of any hope of finding a solution (from either group). The view that the "physicalist-only" or "rational-only" path would lead to a solution was a path of hubris. The solution necessarily requires *both* sides: physical AND spiritual angles, left-brain and right-brain (a.k.a. language/logic and intuition/the unsaid), masculine and feminine, etc.
"The universe is not an assemblage of numbers, metrics, and things" -> this is the "clockwork Universe" arising out of the _Mechanistic_ Enlightenment. You are right. It is time for the world to be seen in a new light. NB's "ecology of communication" is much closer to the mark. Once we can _stir in_ all of the different aspects and wisdom in this group then we will be getting much closer to the solution, _the synthesis_ (in David Fuller's words).
@@fleetinghopes6448 The main issue with Game Theory, with Game A being rivalrous and Game B being more selfless and fair seeking is that that is the way of the world of most of it's history. Game A is more realistic whilst game B is too idealistic to hope for most people going into. Also the binary, literal and oppositionary way of thinking, this black/white type of thinking is more default than you think just because each one of us is an EGO MIND that seeks survival of itself above even other egos. The ego mind is so powerful that even ego exists within hippie groups and new age think types, not just mainstream materialists or rationalists! EGO MIND is YOUR ENTIRE LIFE! EXISTING IN OPPOSITIONS AND DIVISIONS! That's not something to just avoid and sweep under the rug, that's the fundamental nature of YOU EXISTING!
Thank you Vanessa❤
A few of these guests mentioned boundaries and limitations and edges. It's often helpful to consider these as interfaces. In permaculture, the 'edges' are where all the interesting things happen.
yes. Liminal spaces. Boundaries and limitations are constraints and constraints can force us into better solutions.
I'm speechless. Thank you.
appreciating time with this expansive inquiry among so many eloquently posed perspectives… 🐝 the ecology of reflective language creates new layers of potential communication among diverse contexts
So looking forward to the continuing of this conversation! Thanks for sharing!
I really like your enthusiasm and direct communications
Anyway to make these 4-5 humans a regular round table? They are saying everything we are already thinking/sensing and hearing it out loud gives it to life.
Must be why the Haudenosaunee began gatherings and discussion with the Thanksgiving address - in order to start with where they all agree. Gratitude for the many blessings of life.
Thank you Nate and panel members for this insightful conversation. Part of the ecology of communication I'm studying involves analysing how two major media outlets report on topics related to economic growth. My focus is on assessing the balance and accuracy of their reporting, especially in terms of whether they merely promote economic growth or if they also address its drawbacks and consider alternative economic perspectives like Doughnut Economics or Ecological Economics.
To accomplish this, I have developed a detailed system to categorise and score various aspects of the news content. This includes quantifying how often they mention the positive versus negative impacts of growth, evaluating the sources they cite (whether they are pro-growth or provide alternative viewpoints), and verifying the credibility of their claims. This process helps determine if the content is simply promotional, perhaps endorsing brands, or if it critically engages with the concept of economic growth.
The primary goal is to understand how these media outlets might shape public perceptions about economic growth and its potential negative consequences. By identifying any biases or imbalances in their reporting, I aim to pinpoint areas where media coverage could be enhanced, particularly in integrating broader environmental and social considerations into the narrative surrounding economic growth.
I don't know which country you are in, or which media outlets you're talking about, but I don't think I've ever heard the economic growth religion critiqued on the news (I have seen it in opinion pieces in newspapers). For most mainstream television news channels, for example, it actually sits entirely outwith the boundaries of the discussion. In other words, economic growth is seen as a given, like the colour of the sky, and the only discussion on growth is whether it is currently happening or not. It's extremely strange, given that economic growth has never been decoupled from material/resource use, and there has been no evidence whatsoever that it can be. I deliberately call it a religion, because it's similar to the suggestion that the earth is only 6,000 years old (calculated from bible text, there is no explicit suggestion that this is the case in there). The reality that we cannot have perpetual, exponential economic growth is like some weird open secret that nobody is allowed to talk about. Rather than taking the position "exponential economic growth cannot work on a finite planet", and working out a way to get to something different from here.
We have all been lost together for a very long time. Now apparently is the time to reconvene. Discuss. And that “is “ a pretty good trick. PS when it comes to these discussions, not all I do is listen, I consider. I’m glad you are all out there.
Thanks, I can already tell just one minute in to the podcast intelligent conversations abound.
Slipping Down in the hills with 6 acres 2 goats 30 ducks 6 cats 6 dogs 1 old couple Thanks for the Impute.
Thanks Nate. Some nice paradise engineering going on here. May I just add that it is science who has to start to listen first.
beautiful discussion thank you
COMMUNICATION AND THE THIRD ATTRACTOR - A few thoughts to add (still in the midst of this wonderful video) on the inescapable topic of conversation:
LAU TSU BEGINS: "The Dao that can be labeled/named is not the eternal/persisting Dao." Lau Tsu went on to say that the thousands of actual (non-eternal) manifestations of the Dao do have names. (Daniel just pointed this out at 59:00, along with CS Pearce and Dunning-Kreuger blindness - awesome).
'OLELO NO'EAU (Hawaiian proverb): "Aia Ke Ola I Ka Waha; Aia Ka Make I Ka Waha." (Life Is In The Mouth; Death Is In The Mouth.) Major real-world impacts can flow from our words, and these can be productive (Syntropic) or destructive (entropic). It is clear that spoken words can enliven and that spoken words can destroy, but why? how?
BRAINS: McGilchrist's hypothesis about the contrasting abilities of asymmetric animal brains (L-R) includes evidence for contrasting language/communication functions. The Left-brain is more focused on labels, nouns (especially tools), power-relations (hierarchies), logic and abstractions - and is blind to when these conflict with reality. The Right-brain has a capacity for communicating with more holistic and accurate understanding, including the nuance and "opposing" aspects (paradox, contradictions, tensions) of dynamic and sacred living beings/systems. The latter includes metaphor, vocal tone/musicality, and awareness of a shared context between communicating entities. We have contrasting capacities for exchanging information with one another.
IMPORTANCE OF CONTEXT: I have been wondering about the significance of space and time (locality-context) in the metacrisis of global industrial capitalism. (Oh Nate and Rex just opened up this issue too - 1:08:00). Historically, a big part of Humanity's destructive capacity has emerged from our various communication technologies (starting with story-telling, then writing, then printing, then radio, and now digital media-comms), which have allowed the separation of information from a particular time and space (decontextualized), as well as the creation of abstracted (non-existent) entities that do not (cannnot) support healthy living relationships. These include concepts/abstractions such as laws/rules, property/ownership, money and contracts - even math, philosophy and reductionistic science. Have these de-localized forms of communication/information contributed to the schizmogenesis Nora mentions (1:16:40) and the authenticity/manipulation challenges Daniel describes (1:30:30)?
WORDS, ACTIONS & RESTRAINT: While communication can have powerful life-affirming and life-destroying impacts, it can also be just something to do. Songs, poems, stories and jokes can be playful and enjoyable in themselves, with no material impacts other than helping us to pass the time without having to do anything. In a world full of destructive human activity, helping promote "low-cost, low-tech, low-carbon, low-impact" leisure is a very good thing. While communication in the service of destruction/consumption is mislabeled as "productivity" and "creativity", playful communication is truly creative and productive in that it promotes healthy relations and ways of thinking and allows us (and the rest of nature) to recover, unmolested.
LAU TSU RETURNS: "Wu Wei is the main principle of Dao philosophy, which speaks of the importance of achieving the Dao or the Natural Way in all actions and development of things. Without forcing or rushing against the natural order of things to avoid false development and mistakes (wikipedia)." Exhanging playful communication with those in our own here and now context can help us to do so much more by doing so much less.
More from the Dao Te Ching:
> A multitude of words is tiresome, unlike remaining centered. [chapter 5]
> Those who are quiet value the words. When their task is completed, people will say: We did it ourselves. [chapter 17]
> To be of few words is natural. [chapter 23]
> Peace and quiet govern the world. [chapter 45]
> Let people return to making knots on ropes, instead of writing. [chapter 80]
And 'Olelo No'eau:
> Nānā ka maka; Ho‘olohe ka pepeiao; Pa‘a ka waha (Observe with the eyes; Listen with the ears; Shut the mouth)
> Ho'olohe Ke Pepeiao Nana I Kamaka Hana Kā Lima (Observe with eyes, work with the hands - Listen carefully.)
> I Ka Nana No A 'Ike (By Observing, One Learns.)
It is fun to see the Sun come up every 🌄
This roundtable is vital to someone like me(like many others I presume) who struggle with the traps ..there is a fear,fears,of feeling that there is something wrong in Nature..its an everyday ‘fear’ for me,an inability to communicate with others which in my case makes me crystalize my ‘being’ in attraction(magnetic) ..still I struggle to enter in to communication with family and friends who are materially satisfied(apparently) and can only deny alternate ‘takes’ on ecology. Just the word ecology is a roadblock. How to get over or around(or maybe dismantle) the roadblock. I struggle with this need to communicate my love and appreciation of the world around me..but its saddening at the same time because mother nature is reeling..the ‘entitlement’ roadblock is intimidating. Thank You,Nate,and these astute academics(sorry,I search for the right term to describe the roundtable participants). How to shake out the blanket to those who need to hear,see,feel ..Look at the media environment(current politics,massive distraction). How to redirect the dialogue..?? ~ I live and camp solo seasonally,more and more as I age. Silence enlightens but I can feel an energy surge when I have an exchange with another person. Intriguing. But my experience(four months solo camping on a remote Baja beach),the first covid spring(everything was closed down),the natural system there and all the ‘inhabitants’ came forth and I experienced a tremendous love and connection. Few words were exchanged and yet ‘they’ communicated with me. A highlight in my life. I embrace it and try to share it through grace and body language. I’m not sure about the language needed to share the experience with others(people). Interesting,despite the economics and societal difficulties) that said natural experience would happen when the industrial machine was shut down to allow a ‘breather’ in the ‘machines’ of civilization. Curious. ~ All this brought up by your podcast. Excellent,Thank You,Nate,for hosting this vital dialogue.
You mean the roundtable of circular talking and sounding intellectual and complex and keep on distracting me from coming up with specific solutions to worldly problems?
@@danielnelson3136 Daniel, one solution to the distraction stopping you from "coming up with specific solutions to worldly problems" is to remove the distractions from your life. Consider what Ludwig Wittgenstein did in order to get his deepest and most profound work out.
*EXCELLENT* 🙏
Thank you all ❤️
beyond powerful.....i feel like i need it on rewind and cant wait for the next time they meet!!
Who has guided mankind?
Whose leadership do you trust?
Hope, Science and the Limits of Understanding?
These are topics I've addressed for activists since 2014 when I heard Guy McPherson first discuss human extinction.
I'm working on another one now to say that we're not alone no matter how much we've been abused and gaslighted by this system.
See above. It comes from a way of reconnecting words with the meanings related to the natural experiences with the things of nature the words were originally anchored to. Etymology helps retrace what made language such a brilliant vehicle for communication, built it seems by bout 70 thousand years of crosstalk between humanity’s great explorer diaspora flowing out of the Kenya area of Africa, the earliest explorers much earlier, the flood first to the Middle East then populatations of cultural founders spreading farther and farther East, West, and North, while keeping in touch with their origins.
"Who has guided mankind?
Whose leadership do you trust?
Hope, Science and the Limits of Understanding?"
well, therees no need to go esotheric or wander off somewhere, it IS
the violently enforced, mass murdering colonialist/CAPITALISM, an anti-social gewaltherrschafts-system, a bio-psycho-cultural *disorder* that sceams in our faces louder and louder
but even these^ kinda genuinely concerned/"deep" thought-leaderist academians peoples subconscious cant handle the actual, plain truth, STILL-
1:03:00 Nate’s comments about the importance of embodied conversations, and earlier in the convo about wishing for a secret camera in a space - and Nora’s note about nonverbal communication - I’d propose anew media format of communion is required. Noticing body language (the space between) is a task for which AI could be far better than us, allowing us further reflection. Resonances can be highlighted for our growth
1:39:20 Nate, pls consider for the next meeting of you 5 recorBing the session *in person*, using something like DensePose to replay the conversation with spatial awareness. Daniel has hinted at times toward the idea of sousveillance tho can't seem to see a way that doesn't end in dystopia - TimBL's Solid protocol may provide a way out; ie for anonymity and radical openness to co-occur.
Brilliant. Thanks Nate
Nate,
Thank you for this incredible conversation. I think this is the most important podcast you’ve done however, I fear it will fly far over the heads of most people. I encourage you to go back and listen to Vanessa’s comments starting at about the 48 minute mark and your response. You completely diverged from the point she was trying to make and went back to a traditional silverback gorilla response to what she’s saying. You are very fortunate to have the capacity to be in conversation with people working on these problems. Many of us who are also working on these problems are not quite as fortunate. However, I think it’s important that you attempt to embrace the point Vanessa was making, in order to have a more approach, and a less intellectual approach to the subject in order to elevate conversations to the next level. It won’t be easy because it will require a level of insecurity and ambiguity which are not supported within our society but if we are to move the conversation forward, I feel it’s necessary. Keep up the good work.
Happy to hear Daniel mention Ubuntu, would be cool to have someone from Africa on to talk about that (among other things!)
Ps, always really cool to talk with people from parts of the world and cultures, that have been systems thinkers, or wide boundary lens thinkers, since forever.
@@Corrie-fd9ww yes. indigenous wisdom systems. We need to listen and learn. Their systems were sustainable and worked *with* nature not against it.
Daniel4Prez!
Great perspectives, much to take in! A ‘secret’ way back to perceiving life with all its connections, things in context, is retracing the still healthy roots of the languages the earliest human explorers left us as very memorable connections. Simply said, it’s that words first developed as references to features of nature and experience, to *anchor* accumulating shared meanings, so, culturally, as great heritable catalogues of ancient wisdom updated with current usage without separation from their roots.… until socially replaced with abstractions, made possible by abstractions being formed without natural context. Much left to explore, that will stick, if we keep branching from the healthy roots.
I consider the ideas presented here of trying to begin conversations with others on non-controversial and diplomatic grounds. I do see the wisdom in that. I have been working on an essay which is extremely divergant from current thinking. It would he very, very controversial! This discussion makes me reconsider even trying to complete this essay snd publish it. Then i also think, on the other hand, sometimes one has to speak one's mind forcefully and even in an abrasive and contradictory way..."CALL A SPADE A SPADE!!!" So l am left wondering how to proceed! But these ideas are golden and very worthy of deep consideration! Thanks.
Considering the direction that so many things today are taking (i.e. racing toward the cliff) there is much divergent (even extremely so) thinking that is required to correct the direction. The problem of how to present that is a difficult one. You need to grab their attention, but not turn them off or be "too controversial" for them. In face-to-face conversations you can gauge the room and find the place to start. As an author you have the luxury of trying different approaches - and they may all succeed!
I believe the audience for "divergent thinking/approaches/solutions" is growing as the flaws and problems in the current system and directions is becoming more apparent. Good luck! Or use the hybrid approach: establish common ground and then "take them on a journey" to "a better destination"...
thank you 🙏
1:05:40 - Vanessa Andreotti: “Words can become clutter.”
A fair warning.
Timely, most welcome beginning of a conversation.
🎧
Nate, Here are some topics that might be considered for deeper discussion in your next roundtable with this group.
(1) At 1:42:10, Rex offers the advice to ask ourselves what nature would do. It is unclear if this only refers to the physical ecosystem or to the human predicament as a whole. There is probably a law of nature that encourages cooperation in the physical ecosystem, but might there also be a law that only the strong survive? In the human predicament, we need to go beyond values to look at the virtues that comprise those values. Compassion and idealism might outweigh a “let only the strong survive” values approach. Nature seeks balance. In taking a virtues approach to decision-making, balancing in and among virtues is also necessary. Humans are evolving. Humans should be able to analyze more deeply rather than just mimic. Ultimately, the conversation often leads to complex ethical choices.
(2) In your Frankly #66, “The Reality Party,” you provide a rather long list of wonderful things you and people in general care about. One, that must be understood in context, was: “We like the freedom to choose what we want to do. We don't want to be told or constrained.” (0:2:44.) Reading a “rule of reasonableness” into generalities is helpful to not waste time dealing with the obvious exceptions involving the extremes of a generality. Yet, some of the public probably takes “it’s a free country” to the extreme, which can be a factor in the current human predicament. Discussion of constraints might be helpful?
(3) During the roundtable, there were references to the value of silence, not acting too quickly, and staying calm. A first aid worker knows what to do while staying calm. In a crisis facing the need for timely solutions, where one does not have known and practiced solutions, perhaps a degree of appropriate unease, anxiety, or even agitation might spur faster solution-finding. One needs time to learn, but immediate action is sometimes required. If the house is on fire, going to the library to learn about putting out fires may not be the best decision. It’s about good judgment and common sense based on the particular circumstances.
(4) As noted in the roundtable, finding common ground is important when divisiveness exists. How can we encourage people to learn how to have civil public and private debates on tough questions? Ultimately, public debates probably require higher-level national and international leadership. How do we encourage that?
Thank you for all you do to make this a better world.
2 cents worth:
(1) *_Prudence_* is the “Mother of Virtues” - balance.
And someone said: “Balance/Moderation in all things.”
If balance is achieved then usually fairness and justice also follow, thus minimising the difficult ethical choices, but these never disappear: it needs to be a _dynamic_ balance and thus ethical choices or discernment are necessary in _continuing to_ determine what the balance should be. Balance is an active process and so some suffering is inherently part of that discernment process.
P.S. “nature” can include the entire universe (and beyond), not just physical nature on Earth.
(2) “negative liberty” vs. “positive liberty”. And a dearth of “positive liberty” in relation to the Meaning Crisis (or to JBP’s discipline).
Liberalism and Capitalism both reject constraints outright. Most Americans seem to reject constraints - “freedom!”. The solution must have _a reasonable system of_ constraints. Nature is full of constraints - and the “beauty and elegance” of natural solutions is often *because of* the many constraints it needs to face and work within. Any new system or _more realistic_ way of viewing the world will involve dealing with constraints sensibly (like acknowledging they exist for a start). The greatest difficulty to introducing any new system (that must have constraints) is that Americans will reject it “because constraints... and ‘constraints’ are ‘communist’…” Any suggestions here? (presuming you are American)
(3)
“perhaps a degree of appropriate unease, anxiety, or even agitation might spur faster solution-finding” -> I assure you that all of the workers in this new multidisciplinary field working on understanding the problem and finding/developing a solution are _well aware_ of the *urgency* and are _driven by it_ (and it weighs upon them). Nate himself has given up his lucrative career to concentrate on this work. I have also given up a career, income and all that flows from that to devote myself to getting the solution that is most needed in the world. Even so, finding a solution (super-difficult) is _the easy part_ compared to getting that solution accepted and then deployed on the ground in reality where it will actually work and produce the benefits and disaster mitigation and catastrophe avoidance we so desperately and urgently need. One can be calm and work with urgency, although this would take practice and discipline. Uneasy, anxious and agitated solution-finders are unlikely to be _listened to_ considering that we are talking about a new system that will be used to direct the human population of the world (e.g. just as our current system does direct the human population of the world: i.e. Capitalism-Liberalism-Representative_Democracy-Objective_Science in most of the world).
(4) Good question! Actually *_having_* “higher-level national and international leadership” would be a great start! I think in the non-Western world they have better leadership, but the MSM prevents the electorates in the West from seeing that good example…
Nate and crew are leading by example here. Aspiring leaders would do well to listen to these ecological conversations/discussions… so that they know how and where to lead…
I think the idea of having an “ecology of communication” was that it be natural, meandering, getting lost and discovering new contexts in which to view the problem, synergistic, emergent, evolutionary, dynamically unpredictable, responsive to intuition. This approach seems at odds with having a prescribed agenda or points to address, no matter how valuable those points might be.
Good luck to all of us seeking and working for a better world.
@@fleetinghopes6448 Your comments are all excellent. On your issue (2) question (constraints are communist), the key is education. Some words have loaded meanings. "Progressive" is generally accepted. "Democratic socialism" works very well in some countries (probably due to their culture of ethics). One issue I have not resolved relates to efficiency. In a "higher-virtue" world, one could anticipate that a single manufacturer, with guardrails and oversight, might be acceptable to preserve resources. In a world built on greed, having 1,000 companies competing for resources to make the same product seems inefficient. Your comments certainly open the door for deeper discussion. I believe there is a need for urgent action. The difficult part is dealing with the parts of the interconnected system that are quite willing to seriously compromise ethics and global resources for short-term gain. My attention is on United Nations reform, which, if properly done, could offer sensible guidance for a sustainable future.
31:47 Authenticity and Profilisity are technologies discussed by professor Hans-Georg Moeller. The topic very interesting. The double bind in authenticity is eye opening.
In my career working with -people i have realized the more I know the more I realize I don’t know which was taught to me by one of my nursing mentors. I think society ignores the wisdom of nurses and still think doctors are the pinnacle of experience when they spend about 10 minutes with people. Nurses talk to people and get to their wishes and desires. I have patients who have such low healthcare literacy that what there doctors say is all Greek to them. We need to think about educating our low literacy community for what is too come in their community ( isn’t it a run away train now?). I try with my people but people at end of life cant make a lot of changes. Think most people don’t function at our educated level of discourse. How can we help them?
Living in a country ruled by civil dictatorship, this conversation is much required for the populace to not be trapped in the circus run by elites, which makes the populace dance as per their "manifesto bubbles"
58:30 if you just shut up and listen more, what is true for you and what you want to say will actually change! This is why I teach music, which is mostly about learning to listen.
Social Contracts are important. That is how society cooperates and keep everyone and everything alright...legitmate constitutional citizens of the world. We are inclusive.
Thank you Nate et al. For the next conversation I would love it if you include Iain McGilchrist’s work. It seems so many of our mis-understandings come from presenting, comparing and fighting over our ‘left brain created maps’ of reality rather than allowing our right brain to engage as the ‘master’. Perhaps through shared ceremony and inquiry into the messages from the ‘unseen world’ that is part of our larger ecology and that are available and waiting to be brought forward.
How are we going to organize and change our socioeconomic system? We've been having the conversation for decades. What will change people's minds?
Collapse?
being presented with a viable concrete *_better_* socioeconomic system will be just the start of the process. The existing system has ruthlessly fought/eliminated any alternatives for centuries. Cuba still struggles on despite its non-stop blanket sanctions from the US, its otherwise very natural major trading partner. (Not that I am saying that any of the existing systems/ideologies are the new solution we need, but that nay new solution will face this same sort of violent suppression and elimination. The biggest problem will be that the people won't even _hear_ about any proposed new system because the existing system censors anything that goes against its single self-serving narrative...)
*Collapse* is the answer. That's hard for the people to ignore and difficult for the Establishment to cover up, although they've been doing a pretty good job so far...
I hope you get to our betrayal by choosing abstractions to represent reality. There are BOTH strong patterns AND exceptions, to examine, back and forth, from which we have a better chance to see what we’re doing, which words are still rooted in our experience of nature and each other, and which detach our thoughts and actions from reality, and cause reality to change unexpectedly to put us in hard way, having been misled.
Very insightful. I often think about the limitations of language. I have been thinking about nouns and the role they play in human perception of separation.
There is no other way other than abstraction for discourse. Demonizing abstraction is ironically an abstract critique.
@@ReflectiveJourney you could be right. Complexity requires discourse. Perhaps that wasn't always the case. For example, I don't need the word Parsley, it is an abstraction. I know it, I experience it, and I can hand it to someone and they know it too, and they experience it. I experience its greenness. But, because I have the word Parsley, it - the word itself - is almost the conduit with which I experience it. The fact that my Parsley arrives from another country, picked by cheap immigrant labour in terrible conditions, wrapped in plastic further abstracts the association!
Well done all you guys. Lots of different perspectives. In the end none of it matters 😊❤
Perhaps a deep exploration of Nonviolent Communication and General Semantics would be helpful in this context.
Thx. Suggested guests?
@@thegreatsimplification Douglas Rushkoff can talk about General Semantics. David Brown can talk about Nonviolent Communication . Maybe do a separate show for each.
You can never trust someone over forty my parents did say to me as a teenager. I was impressed with their honesty.
The eco-enviroment, is sensitive to changes, that is why we should commune with nature.
Communications happens on different levels. Travelling between those is a practice of being present and aware of perceptions. Cultural history combined with personal history is too complex. So, unless you can come from a non-threatening aspect both interllectually and physically, that invites an effort to actually talk and listen and perhaps know why. Think about talking to yourself when you first wake up, what is real, and what is a conceptual perception or a desire being created. Being in anothers shoes, empathy can never be complete. It involves that lifetime of being lived within all its complexity. So, just as a newborn exploring the whole without fear, as it gazes into your eyes to know you, that then waits in each moment to learn who you are now. All we can really do is be present, which can be really hard and is like killing the instinctual presevation self, to become thoughtless, to be fearless and open. Our truths are unique to us, but our feelings could unite us all. It just depends on how much something is felt, explored, and the experience percieved of that moment, and you then can observing that feeling, a consciousness watching, knowing, and then empowered.
I am.
The rest is up to you.
Find love, but don't name it.
Namaste
would love to hear u guys try to carry on this conversation in toki pona!
End the Wars Now!
Interesting exchange, thank you. I have longed loved the Quaker meme of "Think you may be mistaken" (although I prefer Oliver Cromwell's "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ think it possible you may be mistaken.")
That said, I cannot subscribe to the idea of "having no judgement". My favourite writing that speaks to my condition about this is:
DON'T BE AFRAID TO MAKE JUDGMENTS
We cannot evade the necessity and the responsibility for using the mind to make judgments. It is not a matter of choice. "Life is fired at us point-blank," as Ortega y Gasset said, and there is really, literally, no place to hide. I was discussing these matters with a young man recently and he said, "I don't mind making judgments that involve myself alone, but I object to making judgments that affect the lives of other people." I sympathised, but had to tell him that his reluctance would make it impossible for him to be a second-grade teacher, a corporation president, a husband, a politician, a parent, a traffic policeman, a weatherman, a chef, a doctor or a horse-race handicapper - in fact it would force him to live a hermit's life.
We may be reluctant to make moral judgments, but if we ignore that necessity it simply means that we shall make such judgments without being conscious of them.
We may be reluctant to make aesthetic judgments, but even the casual observer of our lives, our homes, our manner of expression will see that, in fact, we have made many such judgments - well or badly.
We may feel inadequate to the task of making political judgments, but the decision not to make political judgments is a decision with political consequences. So we have not really stayed out of that battle.
In short, we must use our minds to judge. We must use them as life requires not where we believe judging is a safe and sound process, but wherever life demands that we judge.
The task of parenthood alone forces us into countless judgments that we are not ready for, judgments that we doubt anyone can make wisely. And so it is with the rest of life. It is filled with hazardous judgments. We make them consciously or unconsciously. We make them well or badly. But we make them.
It's the mark of a mature and thoughtful person that they see this necessity. They not only see the dangers, but they see that some dangers can be averted.
How may they be averted? First of all, by accepting the principle that every judgment is no more than a tentative approximation of the truth; subject to revision. In the phrase "subject to revision" we find the key to a modern role for the judging mind. If we recognise our judgments as subject to possible revision, we shall be less inclined to force them down other people's throats or to back them with bullets.
The other major principle in averting the dangers of human judgment lies in the training of the mind. The mind has an enormous capacity for error, self-deception, illogic, sloppiness, confusion and silliness. All these tendencies may be diminished by training, and that, of course, is the function of education.
From pp. 122-124 in NO EASY VICTORIES by John W. Gardner. Edited by Helen Rowan. 1968 Harper and Row (Australasia) Pty. Ltd.
Thank you, ☮
Humility is a consensus builder
Tony Robbins and Wanda Sktes
This channel is moving toward spirit healing or group emotional supporting .
finally! 🙏
VERY timely and helpful! Thanks! There is much to be learned when we gather with all our relations for a deep conversation beyond words. I facilitate a community nourishing program that helps people play with each other and the more than human community through improvisational movement and sound. Perhaps this practice can be taken up by more people.
ask not what your ecosystem can do for you, but what you can do for your ecosystem
What Vanessa said about the extended warm data labs sounds just like a tribal community ceremony or sitting in an ayawaska ceremony including the purging. Bless uz all ❤
That reflects her background.
Thank you for this Nate and panel.
I saw Joe Simpson, "Touching the Void" author and empassioned Mountaineer, GreenPeace Advocate gave an incredible slideshow in Golden, Colorado in 1991
The value of Ecology and systems and egalitarianism is understood only by a fraction of the people. If around 60% are at a stage of meaning-making that requires ethic groups and domineering authority they cannot accept ecological reasons but what is good for them & ethnic group. If we do not understand & embrace them more comprehensively & compassionately, they will resent and in times of uncertainty will bring down democracy based on equal rights and support a narcissistic authoritarian. We have to value the stage they are and we all used to be. Ir they’ll rebel and taking control will bring down human relationships with nature. We have to help them progress recognizing our failed attitudes and language towards a natural stage of development. Not despising them, recognizing-embracing their partial truths (and ours) while not allowing them to divide political legal world rigidly from equality, nature, and respect
How to be a good steward to our fellow humans…
How to be good stewards in a way that isn’t itself narcissistic and domineering? I wonder whether cultivating stewardship of some place (e.g. a small waterfall), generates the capacity for good stewardship of our fellow humans?
When we decide to be good stewards of some small place, we may become humbled by our limited agency, and respect the agency of the other beings who co-inhabit the small place. Perhaps this will inspire us to enter into a humble relationship with fellow humans as we walk together towards healing.
Love Vanessa speaking of the shit and the grit that we all feel so ashamed of we have to realise we are already embodying this shit. Mind body medicine demonstrates this.
Then you have to design symbol through pattern and art. Then speak language from the represented patterns as a frame to guide how to communicate with different groups of people. Like the intricate patterns on the interior of churches, meeting houses, temples etc. Every culture has them...even the freemasons and hindu have similar expressions, but then we also have to understand theirs too.
Yes! Women speaking! There are often too few women speaking on UA-cam. Thanks for recognising debates need a gendered balance.
The AI arena is especially patriarchal. So limited.