NATIONALISM: Can You Love Your Country but Not Feel Proud of it?
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- Опубліковано 9 жов 2024
- Andovi and Abigail dive into the topic of nationalism in Indonesia, exploring its different forms, its dangers, and how it can be interpreted in various ways. They tackle the big questions such as: What does it mean to love your country, and when does pride become over-the-top? In this episode we use the term “nationalism” and “patriotism” sort of interchangeably, as many Indonesians often do as well.
Resources and further reading on the topic:
Philip Spencer & Howard Wollman "Nationalism. A Critical Introduction"
"The Modernity of Nationalism: Nations, States and Nation-States in the Contemporary World.” Journal of International Affairs 45, no. 2 (1992): 307-23. www.jstor.org/s....
George McT. Kahin.
"Nationalism and Revolution in Indonesia"
Benedict Anderson. "Language and Power: Exploring Political Cultures in Indonesia
Benedict Anderson. "The Spectre of Comparisons: Nationalism, Southeast Asia and the World"
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I totally agree, nationalism is crucial for all of our young generations to hold onto. It strengthens our love for local products and ensures that we aren't looked down upon by other countries.
please keep making this in English as I dont speak Indonesian at all though my parents are Indonesians. Thanks and keep it up
u live abroad bru ?
Dang, I relate with this, as my sons don't speak Indonesian. But, I will teach them!
Comment who our next guest should be!
Hi andovi
Jovial.
Ka Jo
Sekalian yang belang aja ga sih 😅
Pelaku rasisme. Identitas nya disamarin gapapa. Goal: nyari tau apa yg ngedorong dia berperilaku rasis
Thank you SO much for this video. I've been longing for a community that understands each other like this for a long time. Being away from home is really tough because, deep down, everyone wants to be surrounded by people who are like them. Being different isn't easy. That's why we need a supportive community, not one that tears each other down. Keep up the great work!
And for ideas on who could be invited next, definitely Dr. Bagus Muljadi.
glad to have you here!
Nice content. Indonesia actually have a proper concept of nationalism (love) -> patriotism (sacrifice) -> bela negara (safeguard); see Permenhan No. 8/2022. It describes the implementation much larger than the military sense
In the west, patriotism is more commonly viewed in a positive light in Western countries. It refers to a love for one's country and a sense of pride in its values, culture, and achievements associated with civic virtues, such as supporting democratic institutions, respecting the rule of law, and participating in community life.
While nationalism on the other hand, can have a more negative or controversial connotation in Western contexts. It often involves a stronger, sometimes exclusionary, form of allegiance to one's country, which can lead to the belief that one's nation is superior to others. In extreme forms, nationalism can foster xenophobia, protectionism, or aggressive foreign policies
@@paranoya733 the 'nationalism as a dirty word in the West' thing is very much a direct consequence of the actions of a certain Austrian painter about 80 years ago
Hi, I am planning to pursue my master degree in The University of Edinburgh majoring in Nationalism in Global Perspective. If I finally can get the chance to do as I planned, I would like to go back to Indonesia and "work on" nationalism here using research-based methods. In accordance with that , I hope I can join you guys in promoting nationalism.
That’s so cool! Goodluck!!
Nationalism, reading it from Benedict Anderson's perspective in his book 'Imagined Communities', could start even from talking with the similar languages as most Indonesians do, imagining yourself as part of the country regardless your physical location, and having the feeling of unity when the name 'Indonesia' is mentioned
Mengenai bahasa, it is understandable you can't communicate in Indonesian if you grew up overseas. BUT if you grew up in Indonesia, despite being educated in English speaking environment, the ability to communicate in Indonesian is a MUST.
Keep the episodes coming, pleeaaseee! Loving it
i am born in saudi arabia but i love indonesia, and proud indonesian.. but the goverment make the citizen sick.. the leader not make a good example..the dinasty... but despite that we hopre that we have a good future.. but the young people must be brave and strong comminity..
ain't no way arabic, u must be a fusion between an arabic and indonesian XD
Halah lu mah pembenci jokowi.. disini itu PEMDA yg gk niat, susah kalo lu dikit2 nyalahin jokowi
your English is so Indonesian XD
@@riandivayana4853 lol.. my english is not good hehe.. i am still learning
meanwhile you live in saudi arabia, a fullmblown sbsolute monarchy lmao
I love it Bi when u mentioned empathy..
Relating to that, I wanna share a long story and also a very unpopular opinion among us Indonesians, especially diasporas and the educated
I was a streamer on that orange marketplace 😂
They had this program for influencers wanna-be to get paid just for streaming on their platform..
Soon, I have this one viewers, let's call him Mr. T
He was reluctant when I specifically talked to him to introduce himself to the rest of my loyal viewers, but soon we're all close just like friends who hang out everyday during dinner time.
As we got closer, he shared about his live surviving abuse (KDRT) from his father, etc etc.. Basically I know him on a personal level, though it stays online..
As time went by, this small group of friends that I had started to encourage each other to be streamers on the platform.. It was so nice and I finally can see some of their faces too
And then Mr. T joined
I was in shock for seeing HRS (that FPI leader) face on the wall and some green logo in the background NGL 😂😂
I reflect on this incident for months after that, and I thought,
"Damn.. What a life I had, to befriend one of the members w/o me knowing.. He was prolly reluctant to befriend me because he prolly knew that I am someone who he thought was very likely to hate him if I knew to whom he's affiliated. He prolly joined the org bcs he was looking for anywhere to belong after surviving such an abusive household.."
And then, all that pre-Pilkada Jakarta 2017 memory started to kick in.. I remember being an impostor on their FB group (I'm problematic I know 😂), and seeing some of them who choose to walk idk how many kilometres from their village to Jakarta just to attend their Aksi Bela event, w/o using any vehicles to get there bc they don't have money..
They literally arrived at the event crying
I was still very ignorant when I saw that, like "Why would these people sacrifice so much of themselves for something like this?"
After learning about systemic poverty and how it affected their life, I think it's very likely for them to do this bcs they really are THAT DESPERATE in life for not having anything meaningful and hopeful outside of what their religion promises them in the afterlife.. Not education, not wealth, not food, not hobbies, nothing.. 😢
IMO the people below definitely understand the concept of systemic poverty, but they just don't have the edu capacity to explain it in proper terms to us above.. This is reflected in how they handle conflicts in public:
- That viral video of lady boys who were given boxes of stones by this Ytber
- The car owners who'll always be forced to let go by bystanders even if a motorcycle crashes on them
- Baim Wong getting scolded by the people for scolding a beggar for begging to him
- People flocking to defend Nazarius, that PI then-security who hit a security dog for hurting a kitten
I begin to see these phenomena as their way to communicate with us, the privileged, about the severity of systemic poverty they must face on a daily basis.. Something that, in our eyes, prolly just another theory in our education book
I am definitely at a loss for words for this realisation..
If u guys manage to read this far, what do u guys think about this?
My sister in law family is part of that movement. I am not surprise. why? Look at similarity between arab spring and now Indonesia spring. Kurds in Arab spring vs yamen people here.
Made a difference between Indonesian identity and Indonesian nationalism, both have overlap qualities but it is different. Indonesian identity is about an identity that build as sharing experience as a people. As in my previous comment it is about how you wrap your own created pride of yourself, of your family, your group, etc in the context of Indonesia. It would be easily accepted as Indonesian identity as such, you should let your individual shine but you also need your society to have something in you, that is what I perceived as generations-removed-Indonesian.
I am born and raised here. I love and proud of Indonesia with all the shortcoming. We still growing and this 5 days makes felt like there is a hope.
I think the feeling of proud, start from the history. Learning the history and seeing how our society today, we do learn and grow. And other things that i loved, the people mostly grounded because most had religion. We can be happy from a little. 😆 i love this.
Your comment really make my day! And you're and ELF too! As an Indonesian and an ELF Kyuhyun biased, I really thankful for your comment! 🇲🇨💙
For me, at least, nationalism stems from the nationalism of others. The reason I call it home is because everyone calls it home, regardless of different religions, ethnicities, languages, or cultures. Both they and I call ourselves Indonesian. Nationalism also stems from past heroes who fought for the country that is Indonesia-people from different ethnicities, religions, and places, fighting together under one banner, driven by the will of nationalism. So, when I’m rooting for Indonesia in a sports event, for example, the fact that the person I’m supporting doesn’t even share the same culture as me, has lived a different life, and comes from completely different places, yet identifies as part of the same nation, is what evokes Indonesian nationalism for me. It’s like saying, “I’m proud to be part of this unique nation.” This may differ from the nationalism of other nations, but I think this is what defines Indonesian nationalism.
Obviously, this is just my opinion (From a guy who has never lived or studied abroad) Maybe you guys can also share what you think about Indonesian nationalism here in the comment section.
I think thats the beauty of Indonesia. Being diversed … we were united by our ideology and “Sumpah Pemuda”. The nationalism standard about language is from this. We speak 1 language which is Bahasa Indonesia, this united all of us.
I can relate to this conversation so much.
There's a book I would like to recommend to everyone. It's called "Third Culture Kids" by David C Pollock
As Indonesia i ALWAYS PUT MY INDONESIAN Identity first when people ask.my ethnicity second. My religious believe is always last. Always sometimes i don't want to answer my religious Identity thats how Irreleveant my religious Identity is as Indonesian. I Will die for my country but never for my religion
Maybe sounds good to take mr. Panjipragiwaksono on this podcast
I still proud as Indonesian, but not for the goverment.
Saran untuk video pake difuser light ka , terlalu menyala saat zoom :) but love the content.
I didnt realized that im a diplobrat. Even though im indonesian. I think i have been a victim of prejudice because of my colour of my skin, caucacian ancestry, been living abroad even born abroad. Also this shock me is that ive been judged by having little bit better / easy life that i dont experienced poverty to be indonesian which is totally ridiculous😢
Konten yang sangat bagus
Shit! About the food, hell ya! My sons can ask for the "brown noodle" once in a while despite their short life in ID.
We still consume and cook ID food abroad. Who can resist not eating Nasi Padang, Rendang, Kari, Sate Padang, Mie Ayam, Bakmi, etc?
Even, we buy some of ID groceries from some shops that provide ID goods.
I love it when u guys talk about Boedi Oetomo like that.. A lot of our national heroes were local aristocrats, the educated elite, not really the third-culture kids of today, but def have more than 1 perspective when they look at-at that time-Dutch East Indies
We only understand this oppression concept decades after the Dutch decided on Politik Etis and make European education accessible to them
At that time, as one of the upper-end countries in Europe, the Netherland was starting early in experiencing a very prosperous era that shares the same characteristics we've come to know as "The Roaring 20s"
Together with the rise of women emancipation, the Dutch liberals & socialists were gaining momentum on their Politik Etis agenda, that eventually led to the birth of our national movement
I think it's very wrong when our locals are creating narratives where our local liberals are labelled as "perusak moral bangsa" whatever, where liberalism & socialism has a significant influence on our independence..
We might not be independent in 1945 if it weren't for Politik Etis
Even Kartini's socialist Dutch friends were the ones who went to hearings in the ND to advocate for Kartini's right to education there. They had def done a lot for us Indonesians, but not getting enough recognition here
Yeah lets the heroes story make a come back. The last one is such a dissappointment.
I believe it's a matter of balance regarding the liberals thing. Unrestricted conservatism is bad but so is unrestricted liberalism. The same goes for collectivism vs individualism. E.g. I'm against the open persecution of LGBT in Indonesia but I'm also against the legalization of abortion outside of cases of rape because that would cause a lot of social engineering dominoes to fall in terms of our culture that may not necessarily be 'positive' i.e. unfettered individualism/narcissism/lack of empathy like you see in the West. I would say let the experts do their due diligence regarding the social engineering aspects of jurisprudence here.
etis.. etis ndasmu
@@rizkyadiyanto7922 ada masalah bang dengan komentar induknya?..
@@IndoG117 gk ada. cuma keinget kata2 presiden terpilih tiap denger kata "etik".
Love it
TLDR :
we love indonesia, indonesia dont love us back
we are not proud
kalo bisa pindah negara, pindah negara
Love the podcast❤❤
Imagine loving someone but not speaking the same love language.
Imagine loving a nation, a culture without speaking the language.
My nationalism for Indonesia has long been eroded because of the corrupt politicians & their ever-increasing power, discrimination toward minorities, and scarcity of job opportunity + ageism/age discrimination being tolerated in hiring practice.
"WICARA" or maybe "WIUICARA"
I'm not sure if it's gonna be a great name for this podcast. But that's what came up to my mind
Wiuicara is a good one
48:48 love that idea. saving it loll
Love this podcast❤ keren Abi Joki
bro excitedly explaining about his love to indonesia with anime scene and forgot that he is actually holding a mic 😂 i had to repeat for 3-5 times to understand what he said clearly wkwkwk
9:00 berdasarkan World Population Review, Indonesia masih nomor satu. berbeda 1 jutaan populasi.
please involve anne ardhisa on this channel
14:47 That's an illogical reason to be a nationalist. Just because you're from a certain place doesn't mean you have to be a defender or lover of that place. In my opinion, the core of nationalism is just a story-a narrative that we are part of a community with the same background or at least the same origin. But is that really true? No, it's just a story. The borders between countries are nothing more than fiction and agreements. For example, we share a cultural background with Malaysians, yet we belong to different countries. On the other hand, we may not have a connection to the people of Papua, but we share a country with them.
Ultimately, there is no rational basis for nationalism, except that it provides certain advantages to a community and helps maintain stability in large societies. So, I think Andovi embraces nationalism because it benefits him personally, or at the very least, it contributes to societal stability.
Uploading this on August 17th is ballsy xD
😁
49:17 Andovi better
49:37 Aku pikir gak perlu diubah, udah bagus
Abigail aw aw aw
Ada Indonesia coy
Umm I just don't really get when many people said that English is a privilege, while u can learn anything through internet. If people say quota/internet is a privilege, then I agree about that
If quota/internet is a privilege then learning anything through the internet requires privilege
you can't get internet for free brother
@@alfianmelodic thats why i said thats priviledge, can't you read that?
is food a privilege? because i need to pay to have one.
50:44 Deddy Corbuzier?
Separation of church and state… But “in God we trust” in every bill!
🔥
Make it in English makes it buzzer proof
I want you guys to invite kak Galih Sulistyaningra and the topic is how slowly Indonesian being fooled and forced by the education system in Indonesia
i think it's semangka with oli bekas, not with coklat 🤣
Indonesia nationalism is interesting because to many that I know and love, means that they have pride on becoming one but wholeheartedly know that isn’t perfect. And about Ketuhanan YME isn’t about religion, you got too much indoctrination from certain element, it means as Indonesian they are free to act as they believe as far as you take responsibility of it. It guarantees that every beliefs are respected but ALL should held accountable by “Tuhan” who gift Indonesian its freedom. Remember the Proclamation text “Atas Rahmat Tuhan YME…”. “Tuhan” here doesn’t mean God in any religion but that signified the commitment for being live together to build Indonesia as the next four “sila” commanded. I perceived that as Indonesian from its independence, each could build its own pride in context of Indonesia. The govt exist as more as guideline than descriptor, as my grandmother(Indonesian) said they(govt) could lead in front as long as we(people) could dance behind thats enough.
LFG
Proud to be Indonesia.
Not proud of Jokowi.
seandainya abigail adalah pacarku
guys, y'all need to start invite youtube's pesugihan
has to be english?
after watching this episode, does anyone find Indonesia as your guilty pleasure?
GUILTY PLEASURE LMFAO
What is that Mean ?
@@AhamdMushaffa you would love some martabak at 11 pm, but you'll wake up feeling kinda shitty realizing what you actually did to your body