It’s weird because, for the most part, I actually think Shadow of the Erdtree is often a bit more forgiving than the base game’s remembrance boss roster, or at least less initially daunting. I really think people getting hard stuck on Rellana early on their playthrough obscured the general trend of bosses being on average less crazy than Morgott, Maliketh, Malenia etc.
Too many bosses allow the player to just roll into them on every attack like its DS3. Messmer and Midra in particular. Its a shame, because it makes finding clever windows to punish, like strafes/jumps, a lot less rewarding. Finding a jumpable attack means 10x more against a boss like Rellana vs Midra where you can get an R2 after every other attack.
@@shinyhydreigon7257 I understand your point but I found Rellana's moveset to be so overwhelming on a first playthrough that it encourages just out-spacing most of her moveset until she uses a guaranteed combo ender which is 100% safe to punish. This is how my friend fought her on his first playthrough and he beat her in under 10 attempts. I then fought her this way on my second playthrough and found her much easier and less frustrating than on my first playthrough where I actually tried to experiment with strafes/jumps. Messmer and Midra encourage you to stay close to them and actually engage with their movesets in order to get the best openings whereas Rellana does the opposite
And whether we’re talking about the base game or the dlc. The bosses in ER are still far above the other games except sekiro in terms of quality and complexity.
My own thoughts are very similar, and ER's boss roster (Remembrances and Achievements) is my favorite, but I'd like to add my own two cents nonetheless. Full disclosure, I'm not a challenge runner, though I'm not a purely casual one either. The one thing I disagree with is that punishment windows are brief. Dude, every major boss in this game has at least 2 or 3 openings where you can pull off a fully-charged R2 or a commitment heavy Ash of War. In DS3 and Bloodborne, these were few and far between unless you used some challenge-runner level strats. In ER, it's usually just a matter of rolling into the boss or positioning around a delayed attack that tracks like shit, of which there are plenty. Bosses are more relentless overall, BUT they are NOT faster than they were in previous games. In fact, compared to DS3 and BB, I think they're a tad slower on average. That's because there's way more downtime WITHIN the combos, downtime that can be used either to regain stamina and keep up the pace of the fight, or, as you implied, hit them with light attacks or even fast spells like Rock Sling or Carian Slicer. With Morgott, for example, there are at least 4 times you can hit him during wind-ups or in between attacks with a COLOSSAL sword, let alone with faster weapons. Jumping over moves and hitting them at the same time is another obvious case, but this is where people underestimate guard counters. A guard counter, for all intents and purposes, attacks at the same speed as a light attack, since you'll normally strike after rolling, meaning you have to finish with that animation before going on the offensive. And yet, it has the HP and stance damage that's almost equal to a fully charged heavy attack. Positioning matters way more, and the thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is that boss design is what makes this possible in the first place. Generally speaking, boss attacks in ER track WAAAY less than they did in previous games. There are exceptions, but this design choice is present throughout. Vertical delayed swings that are easy to strafe with no challenge-runner levels of precision or timing necessary. Jumping or aerial moves with great forward momentum and without any breaks, meaning just taking a few steps forward will cause them to miss. Trust me, I went back to DS3 and BB twice after realising this, and this shit is either much harder or downright impossible to pull off against the majority of bosses, as well as the other aforementioned tactics. Considering how many attacks are only dodgeable through pure positioning, not to mention the existence of so many attacks that track SO poorly when they wouldn't have if they were in a previous game, convinces me this was very much intended, among other reasons. Also, creatively using Ashes of War is rewarded. Like jumping, skills that take you into the air can be used to dodge attacks and punish at the same time. If a boss has a move that takes them further away from you, just use a long-range skill. Carian Retaliation can be used to parry spells and elemental projectiles (mostly). This is just scratching the surface, by the way. Also, this is not the first time boss and combat design has gotten flak from what, at the end of the day, is a vocal minority. I'm not saying that to dismiss their wants and concerns, but to remind people that this is a cycle, and those claiming otherwise have some very selective memory. Sekiro got just as much, if not MORE, hate on release for its combat, bosses, and repetition. DS3 and BB had some of that,too. DS2... enough said. For those wanting boss design that will "satisfy everybody", there's no such thing. Sekiro haters are still out there, an opinion to which they are absolutely entitled to, same as with any other game. These games are not perfect, but they are meant to be challenging. Not 100% of the time, far from it, but From wants you to overcome them using whatever tactics you deem necessary. Unlike what many people think, they don't care HOW, just that you DO. Yes, this also includes using a build or tool that makes specific bosses much easier. Learning patterns, openings, and practicing to properly execute them is another method, one that is more to my tastes. Beyond just time and effort, it takes open-mindedness and a willingness to learn, and yes, there IS a difference. It's that difference that is why I fell so hard in love with these bosses, even though they seem so familiar on the surface. Because you really can't say, "I beat DS3 a dozen times, so I shouldn't struggle THIS much" and expect that to hold weight, especially since this game seems to want to punish you if you try and hold on to that mentality.
I think you can definitely hit Rellana more than 1 hit per 6 seconds on average. Specially if you jump and low profile most of her attacks, hit her in-between combos or when she's charging up the Glintstone greatsword.
I think that one issue that ER faces with attack windows is how unclear a lot of them can be outside of the obvious ones at the end of combos. Jumping over attacks to attack mid-combo or low profiling is really cool and satisfying to pull off, but unless you look up guides or the absolute best players fighting the bosses with these techniques, you'll basically never realise just how many things can be avoided by jumping or low profiling. I think this issue is made worse when you do actually know what is and isn't jumpable, things like the Rykard or Radahn quakes (the combo ender for the latter) cannot be jumped at all, yet the beast claws sent out by Beast Clergyman can be jumped straight through, even though you're physically being split in half. These kinds of dynamics surrounding jumping in combat are why I don't like its implementation, even if it raises the skill ceiling, it simply lacks clarity, I much prefer how well jumping was done for exploration.
@@chaoskiller6084 i actually think thats a good thing, and not a flaw. what i like most about souls games ( including elden ring ) is that they dont explain everything to you. they respect your intelligence and expect you to figure it out on your own. if it was written out for you which attacks you can jump, it would take away the trial and error aspect and make it a lot less rewarding to learn. its like a mindgame to me. just dodging until the boss 'forgets' to do an attack so you can punish, is imo mindnumbingly boring and uninteresting
I found your channel a few months ago & I just wanted to say that I love your boss analysis videos. As someone who is currently studying game design, I want to make some souls-like related projects in the future & your videos are really insightful. Thank you.
Definitely agree. I think it was a great approach to make the combos more complex and to shorten openings, because it rewards skillful observation, smart decisions on when and how to attack (depending on your position and current HP) and punishes roll-spamming and "defiant-healing". IMO this change is much more interesting to overcome the necessity of the DLC being harder than the base game than to simply raise boss HP or damage output. There are a few good reasons to objectively critisize the diffiuclty of SotE. Endless combos is not one of them.
I think that in fact is that these games can´t support a lot of things that Souls formula has and we accepted, like making weird tutorials that doesn´t go in depth, a pause button, big hitboxes or input buffering and delays, or making objects descriptions cnot descriptive enough (a ring/talisman saying that boost some health without saying if is percentage based is an example). And I saw this because I had the some of same gripes with Soul-likes, such as Lies of P (which is actually a game who Fromsoft should look foward in part). That said, I felt that part of the community got very whinny nowadays, acting like is the end of the world about a boss being more difficult than average. For hating entire bosses for only one move, or even hating for things that happened before and even were an staple on Souls games. No John, Margit trowing you a knife because you wanted to heal doesn´t make it an inherent issue, a boss having AoEs when you can avoid them with a normal roll isn´t really a problem, or a boss that is combo based shouldn´t be as despised as they are. And even with MIDRA of all things falls also on this "overtuned design" cathegory, you know some people dont even mind to give criticism or feedback, they are just complaining for the sake of complaining. They are not really helping on making these games better, they just wanted another game.
To be honest the only boss I found to be remotely true about this criticism is Radahn and even then it’s not entirely true. Just about every boss gives you enough of a chance to attack them sometimes they use attacks that make them completely vulnerable. Dancing lion has a lot of moves where they stand stationary, the mist notable one being where he stands up and sprays clouds while spinning around, with that move you just get under him and start whaling on him. Rellana has long combos but dodging into her especially during an attack where she pauses briefly gives you enough time to attack her once, and some of her magic attacks like Carian Sovereignity and her twin moon slam are heavily punishable Commander Gaiuss, all you have to do is stand next to him and you can bully him, only using torrent to dodge his larger attacks like his gravity corkscrew attack. With Putrescent Knight, it’s not so much about having endless combos and more so it’s just he moved around a lot, but if you can get so that he runs at you you can dodge his attacks and counter attack him. Plus all his putrescent flame attacks can be jumped over so that’s a plus For Romina, once again the issue is that she moves around a lot but she has a bigger hit box and she’s much more aggressive than PK so you won’t have to run around to catch her as much as you would with PK Scadutree avatar, all you have to do is get under it, dodge some AOEs and you can pretty much go to town on it. Bayle is pretty much Midir 2.0, just more mobile, all you gotta do is adopt the same strategy for midir and it’s a fairly easy boss Midra is basically just a Dark Souls 3 boss, so he has plenty of attacks that you can punish immediately after With Messmer all you have to do is dodge into him for most of his attacks and combos and your free to go to town on him. Even radahn (as much as I hate that boss) has moments where you can find a chance to hit him. In hindsight his second phase is even easier since he has more moves that can be punished, the big one being his massive AOE smite attack These bosses may seem to have endless combos, but in reality they give the player enough time to actually do something against the boss
That's quite an insightful video, I love it! I sincerely hope you're enjoying doing this content. It's very informative, but I also know how exhausting such a deep analysis can get xD
I enjoyed your comment about the importance of positioning in Shadow to extending punish windows. Positioning is not a thing I ever learned well in base game and the DLC (and Mohg) routinely punished me for it. I ultimately enjoyed the DLC a little less than the base game since I still do feel too much of the combat is skewed towards defensive actions rather than offensive ones, but I really respect your opinions in this video. I hope the next FS game takes a step back from ER’s maximalism to deliver a very tight gameplay experience, more similar to DS3, Sekiro, and AC6.
I disagree with the idea that the game leans too hard into defensive responses because the point is to be defensive in that way. The Souls games are enemy focused games, as in it's always been the enemies who decide the tempo, even Sekiro follows this (no matter how much Sekiro fans who hate Elden Ring would argue otherwise).
@@uryenatienza4093 I mean it's just not the same in Sekiro. In Sekiro, you absolutely can dictate the tempo to an extent. You can at the very least go toe to toe with the enemy. Also, in Sekiro your defensive actions almost all have an offensive component. Deflections, mikiri counters, jump counters, lightning reversal, and umbrella counters all deal posture damage to the enemy, and in the case of the last two, HP damage as well. Defense is a form of offense in Sekiro, which means you are always progressing the fight. This makes the flow of combat much more engaging and satisfying than in Elden Ring imo. It's just more fun and more interesting to me. Being in Elden Ring your two primary defensive tools are rolling and blocking, which have no innate offensive component, which makes the gameplay feel more passive sometimes. Jumping at least can function as both a dodge and a lead in to an attack, guard counters allow you to use a defensive stance to deal damage, and some bosses can be parried, but overall, your defensive options feel quite passive most of the time. Even the deflect tear actually doesn't solve this since it does not innately deal posture damage, and it can be extremely difficult to find good openings for guard counters depending on your weapon and on the boss, obviously. And no, I don't hate Elden Ring. I love it for its world and exploration. I just think its bosses are not very fun to me personally, and they feel like a huge step back compared with the highs of Sekiro.
@@MarkHogan994 I disagree with this idea because the whole concept of Sekiro's deflect being offense as a form of defence is all smoke and mirrors. It's the same with dodging, it's just that instead of the wind condition being hitting your attack button enough times after enough dodges, it's just that now you hit your deflect enough times to get a kill. Ofc this is a reductive analysis, but I'm also not saying that that is a bad thing on Sekiro's part. I should clarify that my point is that the argument that saying other games are more fun because they're the more proactive game is wrong, and not in the sense that those games are worse than ER or are bad games, I'd be lying through my teeth if I said that. What I'm trying to say is that being a more proactive game doesn't make you an objectively better game, just a different one (and that Sekiro isn't as proactive as people think). What makes the classic Souls approach (aka DeS, DS, and ER) appealing is the fact that they're more restrictive in this way. It creates an interesting dynamic where the enemies, world, and bosses lead the dance, and it's up to the player to get better than them at dancing. It's the appeal of rhythm games but expanded more with stuff like different attacks, AI shifting the fight, and exploration. (This is also not including the fact that combat may not necessarily even be the main pull of FROMSOFT to you). Sekiro very much follows this, to a lesser extent, but it's still definitely in the camp of reactive over proactive. Games where YOU truly control the fight would be character action games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and classic God of War. P.S. I should also say that I'm not saying it's wrong for you to prefer Sekiro over ER. Hell if you consider Sekiro FROMSOFT's current peak I won't argue much. I'm sure this is obvious, but just in case I communicate my point poorly, I'll have this be here.
AC6 is definetly more maximalism than all the other FS games, it's just a small step down in terms of maximalism from some of the previous AC games that were even faster and even more complex (though as much as I like the speed it was sometimes too its detriment, like the player goes so fast that the camera has issues tracking but at the same time enemies are just soo easy).
I think what a lot of people on both sides of this debate are missing is that it really isn't productive or helpful to approach this topic from the perspective of trying to objectively prove why bosses are or are not fair. What matters is that many players, mostly Souls vets, are no longer having fun with the boss design, and feel like boss aggression has gone beyond what is enjoyable. These people may be misidentifying the reason for their dwindling enjoyment. Maybe boss aggression feels like the issue to them, but the actual issue is something else, like bad positioning, as you mentioned. I don't know all the factors that might play into it, but what I do know is that this topic merits more thought and discussion than just calculating the average number of seconds between hits. For what it's worth though, I don't think the data presented in this video makes a positive case for the boss design. 1 hit per 6 seconds on most bosses is very passive. After the quick and satisfying flow of Sekiro, only being able to land 1 measly hit in 6 seconds feels bad to me. And in the older games like DeS and DS1, the slower pace of combat felt fine because the bosses were slow too. Now, the bosses are extremely fast so it feels like a mismatch. Also, remember that you are looking at this as a no hit runner. Average players, however, are getting hit. A lot. And they will need those openings to heal instead of dealing damage. Average players also won't always correctly identify the openings, or they may accidentally get hit while hitting the boss, thereby trading damage and ensuring that the next opening will need to be dedicated to healing as well. This means that in reality, for most people, it's not gonna be 1 hit per 6 seconds. It's gonna be 1 hit in 12, 18, or even 24 seconds potentially. I will close by saying this : there's a reason the boss design in this game and DLC is the most controversial of any Souls game. There's a reason this has become such a huge debate. There's a reason why Souls vets who love these games for their difficulty have been so vocal about this. And that reason, in its simplest form, is that From Soft's boss design has changed, and we are all grappling with what that means. Some of us love it, some of us hate it, some of us don't know how to feel about it, but until the community stops fighting and starts being more thoughtful about understanding why some of us don't enjoy these bosses, we won't get anywhere. We need to better identify exactly what about these bosses is making people have less fun. As one of the people who is definitely having less fun, I hope FS themselves will look into this so we can go back to a style of boss design that almost everyone enjoys. Personally, I think the DS style of combat has lived its life and should be put to rest. I do not see how they can continue to up the ante in terms of complexity and difficulty while still designing bosses that I find fun to fight. And to be clear. I spent longer stuck on Isshin than on Promised Consort. So I don't mind difficulty. But learning the boss has to be a fun process, and in SotE, I did not have fun learning the bosses. I think FS need to seriously revamp and innovate their combat system if they are going to keep making these hyper fast and aggressive anime bosses. Sekiro and Bloodborne showed how aggression can be amplified while allowing the player to go toe to toe with the enemy, instead of feeling like there is a mismatch between the boss and the player. I personally would also be fine with a return to slower combat, but obviously most of the community doesn't want that. Either way though, I do think something needs fixing, otherwise a large portion of people are just not gonna be having any fun with FS's bosses anymore, which imo would be a shame, because most of those people have been fans of FS for many years and just want to keep enjoying their games. You can never please everyone, but I think previous games showed that you can make bosses that most people enjoy, instead of making insanely divisive bosses.
Wow someone who actually makes sense, great write up. As a Souls vet w/ 2000+ hrs excluding DS2 I have a lot of mixed feelings about the direction FS has taken the combat to the point that I no longer feel comfortable pre-ordering their next title as I always have in the past. I don't want more of this or anything like it. I think going w/ something new would be best. Sekriro was a new concept and imo worked amazingly.
Literally perfectly said. Granted I’m someone who is in love with SotE but I still find that I would like to have more opportunities to hit the boss even just a little bit more. It feels like I’m playing Dark Souls 1 with an extremely aggresive DS3 or sometimes Sekiro boss, just simply by the fact that I can only get a hit or two in. Ds1 was very methodical in it’s approach to slower combat, but you’re right in saying it doesn’t feel unfun because it’s about finding that rythym to match the boss and beat it rather than to sit down and workshop it like a school project. For me personally in every other fromsoft game it’s felt like I’ve learned how to dance with this certain enemy or boss, while in Elden Ring (even in the DLC that I love to death) it feels like I’m mostly trying to find the right answers to a specific question. Which in it’s own right can be fun and feel accomplishing, but I feel there’s just been a slight misstep. Like you said, most people arent doing no-hits, so in reality i’m throwing a jab or two at a giant health bar every other 20 seconds, and trying not to get hit.
This is not the first time souls vet cry because they have to actually adapt and are no longer able to fight on easy mode. Elden ring boss design is for elden ring and not dark souls. Bosses are more complex, you no longer dodge and get no hit, you have to position yourself, remember boss patterns, analyze the boss movement, anticipate. When sekiro came out a lot of souls fans were pissed of and saying that fromsoft should stick to normal souls games. And seriously you are using the argument of him being a no hit runner and having his opinion affected by it. But for what I've hear the most with this discourse is that most of souls vet think they are no hit runners so get upset when they can't dodge every single hit. The average player is the one that doesn't care being hit as long as they can defeat the boss. The people who think they are too good (and its the games fault that they suck) on the other hand think that being hit is bad because they have some experience with previous games. And who are you to determine the fun for people. Stats prove that elden ring has one of the highest completion rate, is the most sold game and has the most highest rating while literally the game is extremely long and difficult. This is what elden ring combat is about, freedom of choice and that is why i will always go back playing it instead of a game like bloodborne or sekiro that have almost no replay value after a certain time because you already know everything and becomes too easy Elden ring combat is mostly rewarding. When you learn a boss move set which is extremely complicated you fell a sense of joy while in bloodborne you just need to parry every attack to trivialize the boss. Sekiro combat is good but is extremely restricted to just dudes with swords. At one point it just becomes repetitive. You cant fight a boss like ludwig with the system of sekiro. Any boss that is not sword leaning will be like demon of hatred. The combat in sekiro is satisfying just because the bosses have limited design
thanks for this video it always bothers me when people say the SOTE bosses have endless combos, its the worst with rellana everyone thinks she just has no punish windows and that she can extend combos indefinitely but she has clear and consistent punishes if you pay attention. she is super difficult tho, i have a character i do ng+ on a lot (it was at 72 when the dlc came out now its at 84) and after beating the dlc at SL1, rellana kills me more on my runs than radahn does lol she does insane damage, genuinely get one shot by her more often than any other boss, but i still love her she is probably my favorite dlc boss
yea this video is great ive been thinking about making a youtube channel just to make a video defending the bosses of the dlc but you’re saying everything i wanted to say but in a better way
Rellana and Gaius were 2 bosses that felt impossible in my first run and i had to summon to beat them. In my 2nd run i practiced a lot and the punish windows felt so natural i was almost toying with Rellana in the last few tries before i beat her and Gaius i somehow managed to beat him with an unupgraded weapon on blessing level 8, it was a lot of fun learning how to fight them.
Shadow of the Erdtree’s bosses are amazing, except Radahn, who I’m stuck on and don’t seem to be making any progress on. Phase 2 is insanity but that’s not necessarily because he doesn’t stop attacking, it’s because his attacks are so bizarre and tough to read.
I'm having the same problem. I've got the first phase down, but the second phase is such a crazy assault on the senses I'm finding it really difficult to discern what he's actually doing so I'm just in full panic mode which gets me killed very quickly.
More as a helpful advice than a defense, you guys can make It much more manaegable. All of his combos are based on his first phase, so the timing is basically the same except perhaps Some AoEs you are forced to roll. The best advice overall is to always roll foward. Rolling towards Radanh makes the lights go behind you and you wont get affected. The second best advice is that at least to learn the attacks, is to invest on defense. Dragoncrest Shield Talisman, Opaline Hardtear, you know the stuff. If you mix It with Marika Braid that offers holy damage resistance,and mix It with a decent Armour It wont be quick to loose. Good luck to you two!
The second phase is made way easier once you start memorizing the timings to his phase 1 combos, which to me neutralized the many times Miquella's hair/Radahn's light beams "obscured" my vision during the 2nd phase. Once I realized that phase 2 was essentially just phase 1 but with a few new attacks, is when my hatred for the boss started to dissipate, albeit slowly. I almost regret learning so much about him because at the end of the day, he is actually a very simple boss. And dare I say more simple than most base game bosses.
@@kenjid.guzman1170 I imagine that the biggest issue this person is having is with attacks that AREN'T in phase 1. The dodge timing on the one clone attack where he suddenly rises into the air and then spams clones is really finicky because the attack will often cause frame rate to drop.
My first play through felt Like hell, i tought it was a terrible experience, by the 3rd play trough i started to love the bosses and now (10th time playing and after having helped count less hosts) i love theese bosses soo much to the point i no hit mesmer and i am currently trying to no hit gaydhan
Completely unrelated. I would like to say that I was wrong about my assumptions that the triple slash would not be nerfed. I don't know what else was nerfed because the moment I learned about the triple slash nerf I went here.
I think people tired themselves out grinding a new character up to the dlc entrance point and then tried finishing it in a weekend because they are sick and have a skill issue with playing video games in general.
i understood that there were openings, but i really feel like it was a difference of seconds (maybe even just a few additional *frames*) that would've made them more rewarding. this can get worse when the input buffer carries your dodge out after receiving the final hit of the combo, which makes the previous combo ender and the next combo starter seem to flow together even more
Yeah but that's a FEELING, to a lot of others it really isn't bad at all. I don't know how you would make hitting a boss 'feel' more rewarding by increasing windows by literal frames. Neither people who like it or dislike it will feel the difference all the much. Also on input buffering, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say FROMSOFT should tweak it a bit. I was originally gonna say "stop spamming roll" but since you're on this channel I'm assuming you're a person who can actually learn these games pretty well.
@@uryenatienza4093 let's say the correct dodge to get into position to retaliate is at an 80-degree angle. there are times where i would be a little off and roll in at something like an 82-degree angle. i'm safe, but i'm just that little bit farther, so the window closes just as i can move in. i know it sounds specific, but it really did happen fairly often to me. these micro-adjustments are exactly the kind of fine tuning that's hard to notice, but can pay dividends then again, rykard kept moving into me to break the serpent hunter weapon art's pre-patch zero poise, which i never saw happen to anyone else, so maybe miyazaki or tanimura have it in for me
@@BeamSplashX that's what I mean, when I, or when I watch others play we no one really feels things like this. Also the game often asks you to keep moving or roll forward to dodge things, so things like this don't happen often if at all. Neither do I think there are any moves that demand this much precision other than point blank Waterfowl and PCR cross slash.
I think the very brief counterattack opportunities, it is what gives the illusion to the players of endless chains of combo attacks. 🤔 If they would have lengthen the recovery time slightly than it might not felt that way & we would also need to look at people's armament of choice, as swinging with a greatsword versus a dagger does not give people's the same perspectives of much opening windows.
I use golem halberd. There are plenty of opportunities to attack every boss in this game with that weapon. Sometimes you have to attack during a pause of the bosses combo, rather than waiting for them to finish the entire thing.
@dgalloway107 yea , it pretty much comes down to , the player's ability to distinguish which bosses combos are punishable enough and which ones are not to get hits in between.
I agree w/ most of this however you neglected to mention that wep speed and recovery plays a big part of the openings. Some weps just wont allow a player to recover for the momentary window to counter thus resulting in the boss dealing dmg which is what gives the impression that bosses have long chain attack combos. If a player uses a medium to faster attack wep your strat is perfectly valid. In short a lot of it comes down to the wep choice. I personally use med to faster attack and recovery weps as I found the slower weps while powerful got boring bc I had to wait longer to get the longer opening for safe recovery. Just to be clear I actually had no issues w/ the boss attacks. My issue is w/ the terrible camera, hitboxes and Redahn's 2nd phase blinding aoe and Miquella's hair covering his back. I consider myself a vet of Souls games (not a pro) w/ over 2000+ hrs combined w/ all games except DS2. The ER DLC put me in the position that I will no longer be pre ordering any future FS games and I will wait for reviews after ppl get past the honeymoon stage. I personally think FS broke their own formula w/ the DLC bc they've pushed their design past the breaking point. If FS can only maintain boss difficulty by screwing the players vision, breaking hitboxes and giving bosses more i-frames during punishing openings thats not evolution thats flat out lazy fake difficulty design. Nothing would make me happier to make a video proving my points as you have here but my time is limited as any free time I have I want to spend gaming and not proving what I already know.
I beat every boss with a colossal sword, and whenever I got hit it was always my fault, the boss normally had large enough opening for me to even run a charge attack build with mostly no problem, except on Rellana
@@fridging Not really, colossal main here, and there are plenty of times to land attacks. Even on Rellana. Yes they may be hard to find but thats the fun of wielding a motorcycle sized sword.
@@dgalloway107 oh no i agree i just think parries make it so much more useful, i played renalla with buckler parry and greatsword and the parries meant i could sneak in a chargie everytime after parry
Bro those blinding lights almost destroyed my eyes. Rahdan was not fun. I beat him of course but it wasn't fun. It took me one week to beat isshin in Sekiro. It didn't feel like bullshit. I couldn't beat him because I wasn't good enough....when fighting rahdan there were moves i dodged but still get hit and oh those bright lights Jesus!
Really good video. To be reductive, the point of these games is their difficulty. Their worlds are (generally) difficult to traverse, their stories are hard to parse, and the combat is brutal. They have themes and purpose outside of the difficulty, but they are inherently intertwined with the difficulty. Removing the difficulty blunts the emotional resonance of these experiences. I think a lot of people, especially the critics that whinge about the combat ad nauseum, don't truly understand that. I think a lot of the problem comes from souls veterans or people who've already played a lot of action games before going into souls expect to be fellated by the game due to their elite skills and bump heads against the intended design. I see repeated criticisms in the vein that the "bosses stop being fun after I died 20 times." That IS the fun, and if you went into the game expecting anything else your expectations of what the game should be are wrong, not the game's design. There are a handful of genuinely questionable design decisions with the elden ring boss roster, but it's all because fromsoft have pushed their difficulty to new heights in order to provide a new level of challenge for vets and having the combat systems of these games buckling under the weight of that design a bit.
You really completely misunderstand the issue. Most Souls vets DO want difficulty, none of us are asking for it to be removed. Look, I had a harder time with Isshin in Sekiro than any boss in SotE. Isshin took me a week to beat. Promised Consort took me 5 hours. But I love Isshin, and I dislike PC. Why? Because the process of learning Isshin was fun. I enjoyed getting good at that fight. Not so with PC. The reason people are criticizing the DLC is not because it's hard, it's because it's a type of difficulty we don't like. Denying that is disingenuous at worst, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the criticism at best. You don't have to share these criticisms, but you have to at least acknowledge that not all types of difficulty are the same, and not all of them are fun to all players. Difficult does not automatically mean good. If you cannot imagine ways of making difficult bosses that wouldn't be fun then you lack imagination. And again, I'm not asking you to agree with me that the DLC bosses weren't fun to learn. That is completely subjective. But please understand that this is the actual issue people like me have. The issue is not that it's difficult. The issue is that, for the 1st time in the series, it is difficult in a way that I don't enjoy. Sekiro was the peak of FS boss design for me, and this game was a step back in my enjoyment.
But i am entitled to victory. I beat Dark Souls, and my suffering was there. Now that l know how to play these games, I'm not supposed to be struggling anymore.
Nobody is entitled to anything. Reality doesn't give a shit what your percieved entitlements are. I deserve to not get my balls stomped by Commander Gaius but reality doesn't give one single shit.
My biggest problem with this video is that what an attack opening is or is not, seems rather arbitrary. For daggers, sure, you have a lot of openings, even mid combo. For a big and slow weapon R2 or a certain spell, even the "official" end of combo pause, a boss does, can be very narrow. Sometimes you have to mind your positioning and start the attack even when the bosses combo isn't quite finished for it to work. There are certain L2 attacks for weapons, that look very cool but are rather impractical due to their long animations. Do bosses in ER have enough openings? Sure they do. Are those openings long enough? That's clearly a matter of opinion and far from any objective assessment because while the game gives you almost infinite freedom of builds, not every playstyle is suited for every boss - assuming that it's possible hitless.
Serious question... Have you ever tried to play ER with a dagger? It's miserable... Particularly if you're you're not using AuX. Generally, there are very few openings that aren't available with even the largest slowest weapons in the game. In most cases it's not a matter of 'can I capitalize on this opening?' but rather 'which attack can I use' for some weapons you may be able to get off a full CR2 or even multiple while if you're using a colossal maybe you can only R1 or R2 and must reserve CR2 attacks for the largest of windows (Generally finishers) It's highly context dependent but in my experience most openings are available for an attack from most weapons it's simply a matter of which attack.
@@hihyou None of his word choices were inadequate or gauche. "Gauche" means lacking in social grace / lacking in manners / socially insensitive / awkward / inappropriate / tactless, etc..., so it really doesn't apply at all in this situation. His words were precise and eloquent, no clumsiness and certainly nothing that could be called "gauche".
except for radahn i dont think they attack too much however a lot of them respond too often to what the player does,be it healing or trying to engage for them to jump away or cancel combos to attack you etc also ps i dont and ive never thought these games are supposed to be hard. the difficulty was on purpose sure but demon souls dark souls 1 were hard because they were new type of games noones seen before and we had to understand the games language. after that they become extremely easy games. ever since dark souls 3 they solely focused the difficulty on the boss fights, the levels being a joke with constant checkpoints and trash mobs and not introducing a single new thing to the game language to understand. if youve played any dark souls you can play elden ring no problem. sekiro is the only one that tried something different to bring back that sense pf learning a new type of game
The biggest issue isn't necessarily the speed of the bosses, although I think it's still worthy of criticism. The main problem is the player character speed being too slow to properly "dance" with the bosses.
Literally apart from Radahn (who is now fixed and this does not apply to him anymore), and metyr who has the shitass black hole attack, which boss does this apply to? I genuinely cannot think of a single example. I used a colossal sword and I still don't agree with this statement.
I think you redefined the criticism on the assumption that critics are ignorant to the difference between "delays WITHIN a combo" and "delay BETWEEEN combos". The IDLE animation(where a boss is simply standing or walking) is GREATLY reduced in SotE. Meaning, after a boss is FULLY done with a combo, they will go to their next attack/combo FASTER than in base game. A very simple test to exemplify this test is to turn on god mode where you take no action, and check the % of the time where a boss is not in an attack animation. This is not to say the the PUNISH WINDOWS are lesser, since you can punish MID-COMBO and at the end of combos just like base game. But the downtime between combo A and combo B is greatly reduced. I think it's a welcome change, but I'm afraid you're responding to the wrong argument. Bosses in SotE "chain combos" faster than in base game.
This, also the bosses in the DLC have a lot more forward momentum and tracking on their combos than the base game. It's feels so much more oppressive because it's so much harder for the player to back off and disengage, especially when even if the player manages to create some space most of the bosses have gap closers or ranged attacks to punish a player regardless of distance.
Dark souls "veterans" when they face a slightly hard moment in the game that turns out to be easy if you use more than 2 braincells: "broo this game is difficult for the sake of being difficult 😡 how dare you making a good challenge"
I spent more time on Isshin than Radahn, and Isshin is way more fun and technical to play against than Radahn. Also my GPU doesn’t fucking crash when fighting Isshin. Stop using strawmen to prove your point, it makes you look stupid.
The fact that you immediately resort to mocking the intelligence of people who don't agree with you shows exactly what kind of person you are. Yeah, I used more than 2 brain cells, and guess what, I still didn't like the boss design. Is that allowed or is daddy gonna get mad at me for having different tastes? Also please don't tell me I don't like challenge. I like fun challenges. Isshin was a fun challenge that took me a week. Consort radahn was an unfun challenge that took me 5 hours. Difficulty is not the issue. FUN is the issue. And yes, it's subjective, but please don't insult people for daring to have a different opinion than you.
@@MarkHogan994 yes my friend, an "overexaggerated" Internet joke shows EXATCLY the kind of person I am, you're so right I was talking about the "veterans", the people who think they're the best of the best, because a lot of them instantly say that something is "terrible/unfair/artificially difficulted" when they can't instantly defeat it, not if you had fun with it or not, pls, pay more attention before commenting something, and assuming that I'm a terrible person because of that is kinda ridiculous too
Putrescent JUST RUNS AWAY TOO MUCH MAN 😭 half his combos end up with him running away to throw his axe at me then leap in the air. An the one thing I hate the most is just when he finishes combos then does that stupid little slide around on his horse 45 feet away from me for like 5 seconds. I CANNOT STAND ITTTT. I can get hits in sure but I cannot stand him. Worse than elden beast especially now that we can ride torrent in there. But as far as too many attacks a not enough windows, nah. Maybe pre patch Radahn cuz there’s only enough time to hit him once with most weapon except daggers an or thrusting swords. But now he’s almost too slow. Idk how to feel about him tbh.
thats not the game's fault. if you just jump over putrescent knight's swings, you can hit him while he moves every time. i have a hitless guide that explains this further. you can punish like almost everything he does easily
"Finally someone who appreciates the most critically acclaimed DLC of all time that most people have hailed as a masterpiece. I can't believe no one appreciated this DLC until this video!!"
I think a lot of people don't actually mean combo's LITERALLY never end, but the amount of strikes and the minuscule downtime can get ridiculous depending on the bosses. Personally, the only real boss I have a huge problem with in a fundamental level is Consort Radahn. There's genuinely a lot of bad design elements, and that's accounting how fromsoft designed bosses throughout their history. Doesn't mean theses bosses can't be done hitless though, they always can with enough practice, but sometimes it gets pretty ridiculous, and 0.1% of the playerbase being able to do it is not a good indication there's nothing wrong. That being said, I still agree the vast majority of SotE bosses are still fine, even if I died a lot to them. Bayle was probably my favorite.
To me, a majority of the Shadow of the Erdtree bosses feel like classic DS3 bosses. I was honestly taken aback by the lowered skill ceiling. A lot of them have "fixed combos" (combos that won't branch into other combos), obvious and punishable combo finishers, and simple attack avoidability (the bosses' attacks can simply be evaded using rolling or sprinting), almost no 2nd healthbars, etc. Yes, even I think Promised Consort Radahn falls into that category of lowered difficulty, with attacks that need only be rolled and sprinted away from. I don't think most of the bosses reach the level of intensity and complexity as say Maliketh, Godfrey, Malenia, Morgott, and Radahn. It's not a knock at the bosses of the DLC bosses or DS3 bosses, It's simply something I noticed.
how about rellana, lion, romina, even messmer? of all of those bosses have a ton of complexity. putrescent knight has quite some depth too. idk what you mean
lmao what is this comment. ER fanatics are always trying to sell their bosses especially in base game as if they have more complexety than there actually is. A lot of vanilla ER bosses have the same fixed combos, obvious and punishable combo finishers. "Simple attack avoidability (the bosses' attacks can simply be evaded using rolling or sprinting)" what that even means lool, if anything SOTE gives you more opportunities to jump over boss attacks, but the core mechanic of rolling remains the same. By 2nd healthbar you mean 2nd boss in a row? Then thank god the normal progression in the boss fights is back again. "I don't think most of the bosses reach the level of intensity and complexity as say Maliketh, Godfrey, Malenia, Morgott, and Radahn." No you didn't notice anything, you probably didn't even learn these fights if you believe bosses like Rellana, Messmer, Lion and even Gaius have less complexity and branches than the ones you mentioned.
@@dinb_dinb a lot of bosses in the base game AND dlc have tons of complexity. which makes sense because its the same game after all. bosses abide by the same design philosophy. saying that either side is simpler is pretty braindead imo. i do still think that morgott is the peak of boss complexity though
Edit: Posted this pre-nerf. Disregard. Radahn definitely does. His attack rate in phase 2 is often faster than your stamina recharge speed (yes, even with the 2-headed turtle talisman) and using any weapon heavier than a straight sword will absolutely get you frame-trapped if you punish most of his attacks when he follows up with any combo that opens with a horizontal swipe, even if all you do is hit him with a single R1. By my count, there are 4 attacks in phase 1 and an additional 2 in phase 2 that are reliably punishable with melee attacks: The spinning gravity thrust, the 1-2-X combo that everyone hates, the 5-hitter that opens with either a stomp or an overhead slam, the Lion's claw, the phase 2 meteor/clone combo, and the phase 2 'Promised Consort' combo. With any of his other attacks, you are absolutely risking getting frame-trapped with even a light attack punish because he can and will follow them up with one of his quickest attacks. I'm not saying it's impossible to defeat him with a heavier weapon. I've done so myself multiple times. But I do think that your assessment is clouded by your use of a lighter weapon in your no-hit clear (by the way, you didn't take advantage of a lot of guard counter opportunities... just sayin'). For anyone using a colossal weapon, or even something like a great katana, this boss is absolutely no fun because of his tendency to frame-trap punishes. It leaves you stuck waiting for RNG to come up with one of the handful of punishable attacks. This is stuff I figured out while grinding him at RL1. I was trying to figure out why I was having such a hard time avoiding certain attacks during standard runs, even when I seemingly timed my inputs correctly, and I realized that he was frame-trapping me so often. I'll also note that Radahn's programmed attack sequencing will often cause him to use his "gap closer" attacks (namely the spinning gravity thrust, lion's claw and starcaller cry combo) when you're at close range during phase 2, which, in the latter 2 cases, can mean instant death because the lion's claw 'windup' has a hitbox and hits so quickly that it exceeds human capacity to properly react, while the follow-up to starcaller cry is virtually impossible to evade unless you're already in a position to sprint away from Radahn because it's a sequence of 3 separate progressive AOE attacks). The rest of the bosses are fine. Better than fine, in fact. Messmer, Rellana, Bayle and Midra are 4 of the greatest bosses in the meta-series, and I also very much enjoy the Dancing Fursuit and Putrescent Knight (hell, I've even learned to like Gaius). But Radahn absolutely needs to have his behavior tweaked to not be a slog.
Yes. Heavy, slower weapons will have fewer windows to attack because the tradeoff is that you should be dealing more damage/poise per hit. That is the entire point of heavy weapon classes lmao.
Deflect Tear + Royal Knight Determination will let you capitalize on those few openings you do get. It's very good actually, and the Ash of War is something I've recommended for Colossal weapons since the base game.
I understand your argument, but on the other hand I could argue that fighting Radahn with colossal weapons is more rewarding since you do vastly more damage and poise per hit than if you were using a lighter weapon (assuming your build is well optimized). It's the same trade off that occurs with any boss fight in regards to choosing between heavier weapons and lighter weapons. Lighter weapons will give you more guaranteed openings but will usually cause the fight to drag on for longer due to the lower amount of damage and poise breaks. Heavy weapons will make the fight go quicker but will also make many potential openings more risky due to the longer recovery time. In my opinion this is a fair and balanced trade off and it is no different in the Consort Radahn fight. I beat Radahn with a Great Katana (a heavy weapon) using the Lions Claw ash of war. I didn't find the fight to be a slog at all and found many frequent openings where I could unload heavy damage using the ash of war.
0:56 As someone who has said the phrase "chaining combos together endlessly" I have to defend myself here 😂. Firstly, of course there's only a few bosses Id attribute this to like Maliketh. But that's kind of the point with him because his whole gimmick is positioning and creating openings. Secondly, I think this is just a silly battle of semantics. "They chain combos endlessly 🤓 " and then "no achtually there are just very narrow breaks 🤓 "
Objection! Just recently I no-hit Maliketh with the Antspur Rapier (Impaling Thrust) and I hit him once every ~4.8 seconds in both phases (I went for charged R2 a few times. With more R1 I could've hit once per ~4.4 seconds). With the Estoc I could achieve even more hits due to its longer reach. In my opinion he gives many attack openings throughout the whole fight.
@@austin0_bandit05 Yeah but Maliketh never chains combos endlessly. He gives a number of long attack openings (between attacks, not just with optimized positioning) especially in phase two. In phase one he has fewer actual pauses, but still plenty for any weapon of medium speed.
@@ETBrooD As I mention in my initial comment we're just arguing semantics when we dont actually disagree at all. As I aknowledge in my initial comment there ARE breaks in the combos. We're just arguing if they are or aren't big enough breaks to justify describing it as "endlessly stringing combos". Due to the nature of semantics you could even make the case that the slowest boss ever has "endlessly stringing combos" 😂. A boss that had "endlessly stringing combos" would be closer to describing Maliketh than Yhorm. Because what does stringing something together mean? To do said thing sequentially. You're hearing that and interpreting that I'm suggesting there is no time between when one combo ends and the other begins -which I'm not. Words are funny that way. Its merely expressing that these breaks between combos are short -sometimes so short that you might miss the opportunity. Indeed sometimes he'll just stand there for a few seconds and let you smack him
Yes, you're "supposed" to die in these games, but the thing is thing is though that beating most bosses on the third or fifth try used to be more of the standard. It used to be the rare exception that would be so hard it requires a dozen or more attempts. It's okay for a game to have a few nail-bitingly hard bosses that are extra challenging, but in Shadows of the Erdtree that was my experience with nearly EVERY reembrace boss, the only emptions being Tomina and Rellana. Although in Rallana's case I think that's only because she's still an early game boss that isn't scaled quite as high, making her otherwise seemingly relentless aggression eerier to endure. For me the biggest "sin" of boss design isn't that they are too hard "objectively", but rather that they are too hard compared to the rest of the content in the DLC. It used to be in FromSoft's past games that if my build was good enough to reach a boss, that same build would also be good enough to beat the boss. In Shadows of the Erdtree, however, I was constantly having to change my loadout to beat each remembrance boss, and by the time I finally beat Miquella's Consort, I had changed so much that my character no longer really felt like my own anymore. It almost felt as if I was playing two different games. I'd be having fun exploring the world and engaging with the regular enemies and even the non-remembrance bosses, but all that fun would come to a crashing halt every time I reached a new reembrace boss You claim that just beating a boss once while barely scraping by isn't enough to "appreciate" their design, but first impressions matter. For most players that first impression is all they'll ever have, and especially if a game leaves a bad taste in their mouth the first time around, they are never going to want to go back for seconds. People who aren't having fun learning a fight aren't going to want to put in the extra effort to master it. I fundamentally disagree that this is all just part of the same cycle of fans complain initially only to turn around later and praise the very things they previously complained about. It's different this time, both because the complaints are more numerous this time around and coming from more high-profile sources that would usually have defended the game's difficulty in the past.
I wield a colossal hammer. I don't find, in my game anyway, that there is ANY boss who has ZERO openings for me. I beat Malenia multiple times with two golem halberds, and Radahn still got beat with a Golem halberd, i just had to use a shield occasionally. Also, you arent using the things that make dodging easier, such as bloodhound step, and if you want to play a deflect character then use the crystal tear that in the beginning of the dlc, carried by the single easiest furnace golem in the game.
@@dgalloway107: I'm also a colossal weapon enjoyer, and have been ever since I first got the Demon's Great Hammer back in Dark Souls. Honestly, it's probably another reason I found Rellana "easier" than some other people have, because as a smaller boss, colossal weapons can actually stagger her out of her combos. Seriously though, do you not see how insultingly reductive it is to say just use Bloodhound Step or the Deflecting Hardtear? A game that conceptually has so many different options to choose from as Elden Ring does shouldn't be so reliant on specific loadouts like that. Heck, the Deflecting Hardtier in particular only reenforces my problem of feeling like fighting bosses and exploring the world is like playing two different games. Because the effect is on a limited use timer it's not just something I can passively rely on against regular enemies, meaning I'm not practicing those same perfect block timings in-between bosses.
@@EmeralBookwise with every boss having a grace before it, I just pop the Hardtear whenever I'm near an "elite enemy" (Like those hornsent warriors), because chances are I'll be able to recharge it soon anyways.
@@joaoluizkfsantos8392: That's all good and well for a second playthrough maybe. On a first playthrough, however, I prefer to be able to take a slower and more methodical pace to my exploration. The last thing I want is some single use buff counting down in the background making me feel as though I have to rush through in case I still need it for another enemy. I also don't like leaving these things up to chance, especially not when some bosses only have a Stake of Marika and instead of a full on Grace. Not to mention with how little damage furnace golems take when just smacking their legs, quite a few players aren't gonna even guess you can knock them down for a critical that can two-shot it. Even if the deflecting hardtear comes from the first and ostensibly easiest golem, I imagine a fare few players, myself included, are gonna assume there's some other trick to beating them or that it's just something to come back to later with a high scadutree blessing.
@@EmeralBookwise while I'd love for deflecting to be a base mechanic without a timer, the complaints you brought up sound too nitpicky, and even too theoretical (more potential problems than grievances born of experience) Some bosses only have stakes, so you attempt them without full resources (likely less healing, low MP, no flask), die and come back in 30 seconds with such resources. Was never a real issue. And while the buff is great to have, big weapons function quite well without it, especially during exploration, where most normal enemies can be stunlocked with little issue. If the timer ever runs out, I just proceed as normal. Besides, just using a shield is enough to continue with a guard counter centric play style, if that's what a player was going for. I get it, mental roadblocks are a hell of a drug, but they are impossible to account for completely. Some players are incapable of using consumables they "might need later", doesn't mean consumables are inherently an issue that should be fixed.
@@hj-hv6rtthat's true, HOWEVER, the hitbox complaints in ER are 100% overblown. Radahn and Gaius having scuffed hitboxes during certain moves doesn't immediately put Elden Ring's boss design down the gutter.
@@hj-hv6rt I feel ER is their current testing ground for this kind of combat. I'm sure in future games, Souls-likes or not, that's when we'll truly see the potential of modern FROMSOFT boss design. I should say though that some of Elden Ring is pretty peak tho. Mohg, Morgott, Maliketh, Radagon (no Elden Beast) and Messmer is what I'd argue to be the best of the modern philosophy. Bayle and the Lion would be there too if they got better camera systems, and bosses like Malenia with some tweaks to Waterfowl would be up there too.
I would say to everybody to go back and try these bosses again especially radahn but with the deflecting hardtear, you will find the bosses so much more fun and rewarding
Yeah, I did a run focusing on both parrying and deflecting at the same time and guess what, thanks to guard breaks and parries now I have more room to breath. Most people aren't really using all the tools available to them and it shows
@@steeltarkus58 hell yeah dude, guard counters do massive poise damage and if you get 4 deflects in a row you do massive damage especially if you stack it with royal nights resolve
Yeah they are. Every boss in ER attack too much. It's design philosophy and some people find it unenjoyable. You can't substantially "debunk" points of view, taste and preferences. There is no point in videos like this.
@@TheSchollar this video made as a response to people who didn't like design of the bosses. Particularly in attack speed department and aggression rate. This is subjective matter. Some people like this, some don't. So, this video is a response to subjective taste. So, this video is about subjective stuff. And yes, I already say exactly that in my first comment just using different set of words 🤣
I’ve heard so many people say they went back into the base game after the DLC and it felt like a cake walk. As someone who went straight into a new RL1 run after finishing the DLC, no…. They’re still tough. All bosses are easier once you learn how to fight them. I don’t know why this is a difficult concept for some.
@@lemonnade5974 I did the dlc at RL1 too so that’s what I mean when I compare. I’m just saying that I don’t agree that the DLC bosses are significantly harder than the base game bosses. I’d say over half over them are easier than the late game base bosses.
@@glisteninggames2981makes sense, though the DLC is definitely expecting more endgame players, it can still be reasonably opted in by players in the late mid game. So ofc not all bosses were endgame levels of difficulty.
Aside from Consort Radahn and Rellana, all the DLC bosses are almost incredibly simple, even more so than the base game, not the other way around. Literally almost every boss in SoTE is like a step down in complexity and combo durations/variations. There are also less delayed attacks, and less overall moves between the bosses. That's the one thing I loved about the DLC, but also something I wish wasn't the case since I genuinely would've preferred to fight bosses that were just as complex as the base game, if not more so.
@@glisteninggames2981 I forgot to mention Lion as well. He's very fun too and is indeed a fairly complex boss. Still doesn't quite come close to the complexity of Rellana. Also, I said Radahn was complex, but yeah. I was wrong. He's only complex from the surface due to the amount of moves he has at his disposal. In reality, he's actually pretty simple since he doesn't allow for much combat freedom and expression compared to the other bosses. I'd argue that he's the only boss of the DLC where you are rewarded for playing it more optimally-- which is 1 or 2 ways, than to play it creatively. Messmer strikes a good balance between being very simple and complex, but he is for the most part, still quite simple for me. The only hard part was learning when to figure out the timing of his delays-- which he doesn't have too many of. Romina being complex though? That, I don't quite agree with since aside from a few moves, practically all of her moves are pretty easy to read and avoid. I also forgot to mention Bayle (my bad). He is undoubtedly mechnically complex as it took me over an hour to fully figure out his moveset. That's what made him one of my favorite bosses in the DLC and of all-time. So in short, aside from maybe 2 or 3 bosses out of 11 bosses (Bayle, Rellana and maybe Putrescent Knight?) I think pretty much all the bosses in the game are very simple, or at least simplified when compared to base game bosses. They all gave me this sense of being very akin to DS3 bosses while also being fairly similar to Elden Ring bosses. Messmer is the best in this regard, and I can see why so many people consider him to be the new best boss.
@@glisteninggames2981 Mixups, delayed attacks... move variations, varying combos, etc, etc. Do you have to position yourself properly? Is there more than just rolling when it comes to avoiding attacks (jumping, running away, strafing, etc)? How many punish windows does the boss have (or more importantly, how many can you yourself discover?) Basically how long would it realistically take for you to fully figure out a boss' moveset and even when you've figured it out, you still have issues anticipating whatever they'll throw at you? Rellana fits the bill of being complex perfectly since aside from her being hard to read, you also have to position yourself perfectly against her attacks. In short, she's a very tricky opponent to fight, and she still trips me up every time I fight her. Consort Radahn I thought was very complex too, but aside from him changing his combos, he is a very straightforward boss with no other optimal way of dodging his moves other than dodging left all the time. Bayle is also complex in the sense that his moveset feels quite varied. I've learned him pretty decently already, but he can still be fairly unpredictable at times. Imo, he is a game of proper positioning, anticipation, and needing good reflexes and a degree of pattern recognition just to dodge some of his attacks that can be very hard to see coming unless you're paying very close attention. Messmer as I said before, strikes a good balance between being very simple while also being fairly complex. Unlike most bosses, he doesn't have many mix-ups under his disposal that can really stump you. And once you learn the proper timing to pretty much all his moves, whatever "complexity" he might have is thrown out of the window. It's a different story when you're still learning him though. The more complex a boss is, the more time is needed to gain a thorough understanding of their moveset, which also means a more creative, less strict combat expression, thereby making them more replayable and therefore more fun to fight (not always tho lol). Most bosses in the DLC, by my definition, weren't all that complex. In fact, I was quite disappointed that there weren't many differing methods and tactics of beating some of them properly. I don't find myself wishing to refight Midra, Romina, Putrescent, or Scadutree all that often, whereas the others are a special case (Consort Radahn though is a weird case, but that is specifically because he is different from what many of the base game bosses were like. Surprisingly very simple but overwhelming and kind of stressful to fight, whereas the others were complex to the point that it felt overwhelming, but in actuality, are pretty relaxing and/or invigorating to fight, at least for me).
@@kenjid.guzman1170 Oh yeah that makes sense now. I was just confused about your statement regarding Romina, so I expected your definition of complex to be different than mine. But anyway, Romina is actually very complex. You have to keep account of 3 sources of damage ( polearm, centipede, stinger ) and all 3 require different responses from you. The polearm you roll through and duck if you're close to her so you can get an extra punish. The centipede you can roll, but also jump over for jumping attacks. The stinger she doesnt use often, but if you're positioned well it misses you. There are also multiple attacks she does that require directional rolling and clever positioning to avoid, most of which use 2 of her damage sources combined together. Her butterflies kinda drag her down but you need good positioning to avoid them as well. Messmer also has quite a bit of complexity. For example you can bait out his triple thrust after a certain attack, and use it to strafe those attacks or even jump them for a better punish. Many of his moves can be jumped or strafed, also require directional rolling I personally dislike Bayle because of how janky he is lol, but you do you thanks for taking the time to explain
10:27 This would be good n all if weapons, skills and spells were balanced the same but thats not the case and thus makes these bosses annoyingly tedious.
I disagree massively. If all weapons and skills were balanced the same, it'd remove the thought in using them and their mechanical differences. Every weapon needs some pros and cons, balancing them to basically become the same would just make them reskins for a programmed damage box. It would remove variety and thought in using them. Different weapons and tools shouldn't be used with the same mindset. The simplest form of this is range Vs melee, a ranged fighter would probably back up way more than the average melee fighter. However it runs so much deeper than that. Fast weapons can attack bosses at times slow weapons can't, slow weapons take advantage of larger openings better and generally get better stance damage, having spells with a melee weapon gives you ranged options during the down time of a boss, throwing knives keep stance pressure up, pots have status effects and give access to damage types you might not have on your build, certain spells can be used to duck/jump over attacks. This isn't a problem of balance, it's a lack of creative thinking. It could also be poor build optimization.
@@uryenatienza4093 No amount of creative thinking is going to make a 5 second attack with no hyper armor useful over something in the same speed similarities of catch flame/carian slicer/impaling thrust variant 69#. It's most certainly a balance problem, you think you are smart and try to do big damage on a large opening like Bayle's nuke with a spell like Rellanas Twin Moon. Nope he immediately recovers with that shtty roar attack and you are punished for playing the game. I can come up with many examples like this. This is why I love Poleblade of the Bud, it's flashy, fast, aerial ability while having mobility to get you out of reach on attacks. However I couldn't say the same for other abilities with long cast times/multiple inputs.
@@dvdivine1962 I should relent though that some things should obviously be more powerful, at bare especially in the niches they cover. But I still hold on to the argument that if everything was "balanced" in a way to make them all equally useful for every boss is still a bad idea. That's because to make everything valid for most situations would be to make them all behave the exact same way. That's the problem with the variety of stance breaking ashes of war, they're all the same. If every big attack spell was given better poise then every supper attack spell becomes the same. That's why it's a matter of creativity. I don't think using Rellana's Twin Moons during Bayle's very obvious big opening is very creative, because that's what everyone thinks the opening will be, that's why the devs designed so many of the bosses this way. Find openings, attack in different ways, and Is it even really a problem that certain things don't work in certain situations? They shouldn't. It feeds into both the tools' unique trait while also going into Miyazaki's whole thing about giving people different experiences with the same game. The faith build will trounce some bosses, and struggle with others, same goes for the strength build. The fact you're using Poleblade of the Bud proves this, by all means that weapon isn't the most optimal thing in the world, but with creative and proper use of its ash of war, you'll get plenty of reward both extrinsic and more importantly, intrinsic. Cause it's fun. That's another thing I should've probably specified, having fun is more important than just having your tool be good, by all means something bad can still be fun if it's interesting enough. If we are gonna criticise balance, then it isn't that most things suck, it's that it's too easy to optimize the good simple shit. P.S. I should also apologise if I sounded a bit toxic, but I just found your comment so reductive of Elden Ring's systems it was frustrating.
If you beat them in less than 5 tries "You're probably tangling with the wrong franchise"? Lol I've played almost every Soulsborne with the exception of Bloodborne and Demon Souls and generally each game has at most a couple of bosses that takes more than 5 tries, and generally they are pivotal points of the game. In Elden Ring most remembrance bosses take more than that. You can say I am tangling at most with the wrong game, but calling it "as it has always been" is wayyyyyyy too much of a stretch for most souls games. You misrepresented all the criticism pointed so you can have an argument, so here I will put what truly taints the experience from Elden Ring boss design: - Some of the moves are misleading by using way bigger hitboxes than they really are (Radahn's ground attacks for example), or by cancelling recovery animations (a problem that has been there plaguing the game since Maggot). I won't even put delayed attacks since, despite annoying, they still feel fair for punishing players that panic roll. Long combos aren't the real problem, but the fact that sometimes bosses cancel their recoveries and get that "Gotcha" cheap move. Much of the bosses movesets are ambiguous, like Radahn's Lion's Claw attack. The main problem with this is that generally it breakes the flow of the game like never before. You HAVE TO stop the game and focus on learning how this one specific attack is specifically countered so you can move forward, generally by trial and error or by going to the internet looking on how to avoid it. Yes, FS games always have some stalls where people go to the internet looking for where to go, as most exploration games always did, but Elden Ring pushed that aspect into boss fights. Now you generally need to search for things outside the game of waste a lot of time with trial and error trying to dodge boar ram. This is coming from someone who liked most DLCs bosses, as Bayle, Rellanna and Messmer are my favorites. But Radhan and Commander Gaius are atrocities that have their purposes be to annoy and halt progress. Those fights aren't fun even when you beat them.
idk i think gaius is really enjoyable. fun positioning strats you can try. the only boss that can cancel recoveries is malenia. and if you have to go on the internet so challenge runners can spoonfeed you dodge methods because you cant experiment yourself, then thats not on the game imo
SotE dialed the difficulty up by putting it in a place where this kind of analysis is highly relevant. And it is pushing many people past the point where they have to reconsider how they play and which tools they dip into using. And I think where that gets very dicey is when people start to say "But that is my build and I shouldn't have to change it." But the reality is that going ahead and using vs omitting certain tools, to even include weapon style choices, has always been one of the 'invisible' difficulty sliders in souls+ games. The people no hit Let Me Solo Them'ing Radahn with good old dodging around, with correct positioning, and a medium speed or faster melee weapon demonstrate the lie of the complaints that the powerful tools become required and that it has ceased to be fair though.
Correct. When the game is too hard because of my stubborn build choices (low vigor, no summons, no "OP shit", no crafting, etc), I don't think the game is too difficult. _I_ am the one making the game difficult. Because that's how I fucking like it. And I will never complain about the game's difficulty when I'm the one making it this hard.
I also think a lot of the people that complain about build changing miss one of the points of the series. The idea that every player will have a unique story to tell after their first play through. I remember watching a critique of the game, I forgot who it was or whether or not I liked it, but a point everyone seemed to dislike was that the build changing in Elden Ring was good thing. A lot of them argued that the game was poorly balanced because of it, however I disagreed. The point is to have each player's experience be different. The same builds shouldn't struggle the same way during every boss because that would not make any sense in the lore, and it'd remove a key feature of the franchise. That being some people will trounce some bosses, while others will hit the thickest of brick walls trying to beat others.
I feel in general the point of using different tools isn't even that you have to use certain tools, instead it is just to have a complete functioning build, which can cover all grounds. I think the "Tutorial Boss" usually displays the skills that the player should also be employing. Genichiro and Margit are the examples of that. And what does Margit do? He uses a variety of quick and slow attacks and has a ranged option. As long as you can cover all of these bases, you will be able to consistently deal with everything a boss can throw at you. Does a boss have a long window of attack? Use a slow attack with big stance damage. Does a boss jump away after a combo? Use ranged attacks. That can be magic, consumables, ashes of war or now smithscript weapons. Does a boss not have consistent enough openings for your big weapon to get stance breaks? Use a quick option, which can again be magic, consumables or ashes of war. Still, for the most part, this is not needed, only for optimal play. I wanted to consistently stance break Promised Consort Radahn with Messmers Spear, so to improve my chances, I started throwing knives inbetween his slower combo start ups. If he went to far away I used the smithscript heavy of the Spear.
I really, REALLY wish people would stop making this argument. I've found it so incredibly obnoxious and annoying that I've honestly considered making a video myself just to respond to it. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to edit and I'm not a good speaker. The idea that challenge runners no hit bosses therefore people's complaints are invalid is COMPLETELY absurd. 1. Challenge runners are often EXTREMELY critical of the bosses themselves. Go look at Ooloh's Radahn criticism. BDBrian and Jordien are both extremely critical of bosses including Malenia who the co-wrote an entire guide on and criticized her within the guide. 2. Just because something CAN be no hit doesn't mean it's in any way reasonable. A perfect example is something like Elden Stars. This attack is a complete non issue for no hit runners at this point. It's been solved for quite some time. HOWEVER, the attack is still rubbish. I've no hit Elden Beast literally dozens of times I can confidently and reliably avoid the attack, and I still think it's garbage. 3. This kind of builds on the previous point but often avoiding being hit strongly dictates how you are able to approach an encounter. This was highlighted in the video with Metyr, this boss has been solved hitless but the way to do it reliably requires a ton of tedium and running away/heavy AI manipulation. This is not only completely unreasonably for an average player but also extremely unengaging. At the end of the day fair is going to be subjective based on how you choose to define the term. Furthermore, it really says nothing about quality. Imo, a boss is fair if everything in their kit can be consistently avoidable and responded to by the tools available on every players base kit. By this definition Malenia is entirely fair, and Mohg is not. However, I definitely think Mohg is the better boss personally. By extension a boss like PCR is technically fair but is absolute garbage imo. Essentially, what I'm getting at is no hit runs can be used or cited to demonstrate CONSISTENCY but they say absolutely nothing about quality.
Whatever, this "hug boss ass and roll-roll-roll-poke" loop is getting dated already. Time for FS to step up their combatplay and maybe even write it from scratch.
@@nacorcarmonablanco4414 that's a pretty shit arguement, especially since ER does a great job at making this reactionary play unique. With positioning and the unique ways you can play with builds (and I mean that in a way that isn't just slamming them with damage).
@@uryenatienza4093 Yeah you can build a ranged only mage or a tank shield + spear, or neglect most humanoid bosses with parry, so what? Most builds are based on dodge > poke, thats a fact.
@@nacorcarmonablanco4414 and that's outdated and needs to change? Once again the game does a great job putting variety through positioning, the necessity to dodge in a certain direction, the fact that bosses don't just let you hit for free anymore (at least most). Elden Ring is the step up in FROMSOFT'S combat, it's a rocky one, but it is still one. Elden Ring is a great direction for their bosses, and this is the step-up. The reason I'm arguing against you is because I don't want FROMSOFT to abandon its unique niche in combat just so they can replace it with something more generic. No other games play like FROMSOFT, and that includes games inspired by their design. I'm tired of people that think this reactive enemy focused combat is OBJECTIVELY worse than other forms of combat in video games. That's just not true. Also saying it's "tiring" isn't really a point when there are plenty of people who'd happily want more, like me.
@@uryenatienza4093 Yeah, its outdated, its a design from more than a decade ago, that got improvements over time, but base combat is the same. They have indeed added new mechanics like timed blocks in the dlc, but at the end, if you watch how most people play, it is mostly dodge > poke. And most bosses, specially big ones, are better being fought hugging their asses (being this yt video an example of that). They can and should do better for next projects.
I go for the bait every time.....I can't look at a boss doing nothing and Not hit them!
I can't look at a boss doing anything and not panic roll
It’s weird because, for the most part, I actually think Shadow of the Erdtree is often a bit more forgiving than the base game’s remembrance boss roster, or at least less initially daunting. I really think people getting hard stuck on Rellana early on their playthrough obscured the general trend of bosses being on average less crazy than Morgott, Maliketh, Malenia etc.
Too many bosses allow the player to just roll into them on every attack like its DS3. Messmer and Midra in particular. Its a shame, because it makes finding clever windows to punish, like strafes/jumps, a lot less rewarding.
Finding a jumpable attack means 10x more against a boss like Rellana vs Midra where you can get an R2 after every other attack.
@@shinyhydreigon7257 I understand your point but I found Rellana's moveset to be so overwhelming on a first playthrough that it encourages just out-spacing most of her moveset until she uses a guaranteed combo ender which is 100% safe to punish. This is how my friend fought her on his first playthrough and he beat her in under 10 attempts. I then fought her this way on my second playthrough and found her much easier and less frustrating than on my first playthrough where I actually tried to experiment with strafes/jumps. Messmer and Midra encourage you to stay close to them and actually engage with their movesets in order to get the best openings whereas Rellana does the opposite
And whether we’re talking about the base game or the dlc. The bosses in ER are still far above the other games except sekiro in terms of quality and complexity.
@@Stanzbey69 ER is head and shoulders above Sekiro too. Only other Souls game that is close is Armored Core 6.
@@shinyhydreigon7257 Armoured Core 6 is not Souls.
My own thoughts are very similar, and ER's boss roster (Remembrances and Achievements) is my favorite, but I'd like to add my own two cents nonetheless. Full disclosure, I'm not a challenge runner, though I'm not a purely casual one either.
The one thing I disagree with is that punishment windows are brief. Dude, every major boss in this game has at least 2 or 3 openings where you can pull off a fully-charged R2 or a commitment heavy Ash of War. In DS3 and Bloodborne, these were few and far between unless you used some challenge-runner level strats. In ER, it's usually just a matter of rolling into the boss or positioning around a delayed attack that tracks like shit, of which there are plenty.
Bosses are more relentless overall, BUT they are NOT faster than they were in previous games. In fact, compared to DS3 and BB, I think they're a tad slower on average. That's because there's way more downtime WITHIN the combos, downtime that can be used either to regain stamina and keep up the pace of the fight, or, as you implied, hit them with light attacks or even fast spells like Rock Sling or Carian Slicer. With Morgott, for example, there are at least 4 times you can hit him during wind-ups or in between attacks with a COLOSSAL sword, let alone with faster weapons. Jumping over moves and hitting them at the same time is another obvious case, but this is where people underestimate guard counters. A guard counter, for all intents and purposes, attacks at the same speed as a light attack, since you'll normally strike after rolling, meaning you have to finish with that animation before going on the offensive. And yet, it has the HP and stance damage that's almost equal to a fully charged heavy attack.
Positioning matters way more, and the thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is that boss design is what makes this possible in the first place. Generally speaking, boss attacks in ER track WAAAY less than they did in previous games. There are exceptions, but this design choice is present throughout. Vertical delayed swings that are easy to strafe with no challenge-runner levels of precision or timing necessary. Jumping or aerial moves with great forward momentum and without any breaks, meaning just taking a few steps forward will cause them to miss. Trust me, I went back to DS3 and BB twice after realising this, and this shit is either much harder or downright impossible to pull off against the majority of bosses, as well as the other aforementioned tactics. Considering how many attacks are only dodgeable through pure positioning, not to mention the existence of so many attacks that track SO poorly when they wouldn't have if they were in a previous game, convinces me this was very much intended, among other reasons.
Also, creatively using Ashes of War is rewarded. Like jumping, skills that take you into the air can be used to dodge attacks and punish at the same time. If a boss has a move that takes them further away from you, just use a long-range skill. Carian Retaliation can be used to parry spells and elemental projectiles (mostly). This is just scratching the surface, by the way.
Also, this is not the first time boss and combat design has gotten flak from what, at the end of the day, is a vocal minority. I'm not saying that to dismiss their wants and concerns, but to remind people that this is a cycle, and those claiming otherwise have some very selective memory. Sekiro got just as much, if not MORE, hate on release for its combat, bosses, and repetition. DS3 and BB had some of that,too. DS2... enough said. For those wanting boss design that will "satisfy everybody", there's no such thing. Sekiro haters are still out there, an opinion to which they are absolutely entitled to, same as with any other game.
These games are not perfect, but they are meant to be challenging. Not 100% of the time, far from it, but From wants you to overcome them using whatever tactics you deem necessary. Unlike what many people think, they don't care HOW, just that you DO. Yes, this also includes using a build or tool that makes specific bosses much easier. Learning patterns, openings, and practicing to properly execute them is another method, one that is more to my tastes. Beyond just time and effort, it takes open-mindedness and a willingness to learn, and yes, there IS a difference. It's that difference that is why I fell so hard in love with these bosses, even though they seem so familiar on the surface. Because you really can't say, "I beat DS3 a dozen times, so I shouldn't struggle THIS much" and expect that to hold weight, especially since this game seems to want to punish you if you try and hold on to that mentality.
I think you can definitely hit Rellana more than 1 hit per 6 seconds on average. Specially if you jump and low profile most of her attacks, hit her in-between combos or when she's charging up the Glintstone greatsword.
Or just use the deflecting hardtear. She poise breaks super quickly with that.
I think that one issue that ER faces with attack windows is how unclear a lot of them can be outside of the obvious ones at the end of combos. Jumping over attacks to attack mid-combo or low profiling is really cool and satisfying to pull off, but unless you look up guides or the absolute best players fighting the bosses with these techniques, you'll basically never realise just how many things can be avoided by jumping or low profiling. I think this issue is made worse when you do actually know what is and isn't jumpable, things like the Rykard or Radahn quakes (the combo ender for the latter) cannot be jumped at all, yet the beast claws sent out by Beast Clergyman can be jumped straight through, even though you're physically being split in half. These kinds of dynamics surrounding jumping in combat are why I don't like its implementation, even if it raises the skill ceiling, it simply lacks clarity, I much prefer how well jumping was done for exploration.
@@chaoskiller6084 i actually think thats a good thing, and not a flaw. what i like most about souls games ( including elden ring ) is that they dont explain everything to you. they respect your intelligence and expect you to figure it out on your own. if it was written out for you which attacks you can jump, it would take away the trial and error aspect and make it a lot less rewarding to learn.
its like a mindgame to me. just dodging until the boss 'forgets' to do an attack so you can punish, is imo mindnumbingly boring and uninteresting
@@glisteninggames2981 Unfortunately there is a lack of intelligence to respect 😂
@@m.p4603 haha perhaps
I found your channel a few months ago & I just wanted to say that I love your boss analysis videos.
As someone who is currently studying game design, I want to make some souls-like related projects in the future & your videos are really insightful. Thank you.
Definitely agree. I think it was a great approach to make the combos more complex and to shorten openings, because it rewards skillful observation, smart decisions on when and how to attack (depending on your position and current HP) and punishes roll-spamming and "defiant-healing". IMO this change is much more interesting to overcome the necessity of the DLC being harder than the base game than to simply raise boss HP or damage output. There are a few good reasons to objectively critisize the diffiuclty of SotE. Endless combos is not one of them.
I think that in fact is that these games can´t support a lot of things that Souls formula has and we accepted, like making weird tutorials that doesn´t go in depth, a pause button, big hitboxes or input buffering and delays, or making objects descriptions cnot descriptive enough (a ring/talisman saying that boost some health without saying if is percentage based is an example).
And I saw this because I had the some of same gripes with Soul-likes, such as Lies of P (which is actually a game who Fromsoft should look foward in part).
That said, I felt that part of the community got very whinny nowadays, acting like is the end of the world about a boss being more difficult than average. For hating entire bosses for only one move, or even hating for things that happened before and even were an staple on Souls games. No John, Margit trowing you a knife because you wanted to heal doesn´t make it an inherent issue, a boss having AoEs when you can avoid them with a normal roll isn´t really a problem, or a boss that is combo based shouldn´t be as despised as they are.
And even with MIDRA of all things falls also on this "overtuned design" cathegory, you know some people dont even mind to give criticism or feedback, they are just complaining for the sake of complaining. They are not really helping on making these games better, they just wanted another game.
To be honest the only boss I found to be remotely true about this criticism is Radahn and even then it’s not entirely true. Just about every boss gives you enough of a chance to attack them sometimes they use attacks that make them completely vulnerable.
Dancing lion has a lot of moves where they stand stationary, the mist notable one being where he stands up and sprays clouds while spinning around, with that move you just get under him and start whaling on him.
Rellana has long combos but dodging into her especially during an attack where she pauses briefly gives you enough time to attack her once, and some of her magic attacks like Carian Sovereignity and her twin moon slam are heavily punishable
Commander Gaiuss, all you have to do is stand next to him and you can bully him, only using torrent to dodge his larger attacks like his gravity corkscrew attack.
With Putrescent Knight, it’s not so much about having endless combos and more so it’s just he moved around a lot, but if you can get so that he runs at you you can dodge his attacks and counter attack him. Plus all his putrescent flame attacks can be jumped over so that’s a plus
For Romina, once again the issue is that she moves around a lot but she has a bigger hit box and she’s much more aggressive than PK so you won’t have to run around to catch her as much as you would with PK
Scadutree avatar, all you have to do is get under it, dodge some AOEs and you can pretty much go to town on it.
Bayle is pretty much Midir 2.0, just more mobile, all you gotta do is adopt the same strategy for midir and it’s a fairly easy boss
Midra is basically just a Dark Souls 3 boss, so he has plenty of attacks that you can punish immediately after
With Messmer all you have to do is dodge into him for most of his attacks and combos and your free to go to town on him.
Even radahn (as much as I hate that boss) has moments where you can find a chance to hit him. In hindsight his second phase is even easier since he has more moves that can be punished, the big one being his massive AOE smite attack
These bosses may seem to have endless combos, but in reality they give the player enough time to actually do something against the boss
They nerfed radhan mostly his cross slash
@@2265Hello and now the excuse that he has endless combos is dead in the water
@@MediaDroid960 really Radhan just needed some fine tuning which is what the patch mostly did
@@MediaDroid960oh so in other words even the devs saw it was too much and agreed that actually yes they did hit too much?
@@Jose_Doe if that’s how you see it then yes
That's quite an insightful video, I love it!
I sincerely hope you're enjoying doing this content. It's very informative, but I also know how exhausting such a deep analysis can get xD
I enjoyed your comment about the importance of positioning in Shadow to extending punish windows. Positioning is not a thing I ever learned well in base game and the DLC (and Mohg) routinely punished me for it. I ultimately enjoyed the DLC a little less than the base game since I still do feel too much of the combat is skewed towards defensive actions rather than offensive ones, but I really respect your opinions in this video. I hope the next FS game takes a step back from ER’s maximalism to deliver a very tight gameplay experience, more similar to DS3, Sekiro, and AC6.
I disagree with the idea that the game leans too hard into defensive responses because the point is to be defensive in that way. The Souls games are enemy focused games, as in it's always been the enemies who decide the tempo, even Sekiro follows this (no matter how much Sekiro fans who hate Elden Ring would argue otherwise).
@@uryenatienza4093 I mean it's just not the same in Sekiro. In Sekiro, you absolutely can dictate the tempo to an extent. You can at the very least go toe to toe with the enemy. Also, in Sekiro your defensive actions almost all have an offensive component. Deflections, mikiri counters, jump counters, lightning reversal, and umbrella counters all deal posture damage to the enemy, and in the case of the last two, HP damage as well.
Defense is a form of offense in Sekiro, which means you are always progressing the fight. This makes the flow of combat much more engaging and satisfying than in Elden Ring imo. It's just more fun and more interesting to me. Being in Elden Ring your two primary defensive tools are rolling and blocking, which have no innate offensive component, which makes the gameplay feel more passive sometimes.
Jumping at least can function as both a dodge and a lead in to an attack, guard counters allow you to use a defensive stance to deal damage, and some bosses can be parried, but overall, your defensive options feel quite passive most of the time. Even the deflect tear actually doesn't solve this since it does not innately deal posture damage, and it can be extremely difficult to find good openings for guard counters depending on your weapon and on the boss, obviously.
And no, I don't hate Elden Ring. I love it for its world and exploration. I just think its bosses are not very fun to me personally, and they feel like a huge step back compared with the highs of Sekiro.
@@MarkHogan994 I disagree with this idea because the whole concept of Sekiro's deflect being offense as a form of defence is all smoke and mirrors. It's the same with dodging, it's just that instead of the wind condition being hitting your attack button enough times after enough dodges, it's just that now you hit your deflect enough times to get a kill.
Ofc this is a reductive analysis, but I'm also not saying that that is a bad thing on Sekiro's part.
I should clarify that my point is that the argument that saying other games are more fun because they're the more proactive game is wrong, and not in the sense that those games are worse than ER or are bad games, I'd be lying through my teeth if I said that. What I'm trying to say is that being a more proactive game doesn't make you an objectively better game, just a different one (and that Sekiro isn't as proactive as people think). What makes the classic Souls approach (aka DeS, DS, and ER) appealing is the fact that they're more restrictive in this way. It creates an interesting dynamic where the enemies, world, and bosses lead the dance, and it's up to the player to get better than them at dancing. It's the appeal of rhythm games but expanded more with stuff like different attacks, AI shifting the fight, and exploration. (This is also not including the fact that combat may not necessarily even be the main pull of FROMSOFT to you). Sekiro very much follows this, to a lesser extent, but it's still definitely in the camp of reactive over proactive.
Games where YOU truly control the fight would be character action games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and classic God of War.
P.S. I should also say that I'm not saying it's wrong for you to prefer Sekiro over ER. Hell if you consider Sekiro FROMSOFT's current peak I won't argue much. I'm sure this is obvious, but just in case I communicate my point poorly, I'll have this be here.
They try to teach it to youu with Margit and Godrick, but somehow nobody caught on to that.
AC6 is definetly more maximalism than all the other FS games, it's just a small step down in terms of maximalism from some of the previous AC games that were even faster and even more complex (though as much as I like the speed it was sometimes too its detriment, like the player goes so fast that the camera has issues tracking but at the same time enemies are just soo easy).
I think what a lot of people on both sides of this debate are missing is that it really isn't productive or helpful to approach this topic from the perspective of trying to objectively prove why bosses are or are not fair. What matters is that many players, mostly Souls vets, are no longer having fun with the boss design, and feel like boss aggression has gone beyond what is enjoyable. These people may be misidentifying the reason for their dwindling enjoyment. Maybe boss aggression feels like the issue to them, but the actual issue is something else, like bad positioning, as you mentioned.
I don't know all the factors that might play into it, but what I do know is that this topic merits more thought and discussion than just calculating the average number of seconds between hits. For what it's worth though, I don't think the data presented in this video makes a positive case for the boss design. 1 hit per 6 seconds on most bosses is very passive.
After the quick and satisfying flow of Sekiro, only being able to land 1 measly hit in 6 seconds feels bad to me. And in the older games like DeS and DS1, the slower pace of combat felt fine because the bosses were slow too. Now, the bosses are extremely fast so it feels like a mismatch.
Also, remember that you are looking at this as a no hit runner. Average players, however, are getting hit. A lot. And they will need those openings to heal instead of dealing damage. Average players also won't always correctly identify the openings, or they may accidentally get hit while hitting the boss, thereby trading damage and ensuring that the next opening will need to be dedicated to healing as well. This means that in reality, for most people, it's not gonna be 1 hit per 6 seconds. It's gonna be 1 hit in 12, 18, or even 24 seconds potentially.
I will close by saying this : there's a reason the boss design in this game and DLC is the most controversial of any Souls game. There's a reason this has become such a huge debate. There's a reason why Souls vets who love these games for their difficulty have been so vocal about this. And that reason, in its simplest form, is that From Soft's boss design has changed, and we are all grappling with what that means.
Some of us love it, some of us hate it, some of us don't know how to feel about it, but until the community stops fighting and starts being more thoughtful about understanding why some of us don't enjoy these bosses, we won't get anywhere.
We need to better identify exactly what about these bosses is making people have less fun. As one of the people who is definitely having less fun, I hope FS themselves will look into this so we can go back to a style of boss design that almost everyone enjoys.
Personally, I think the DS style of combat has lived its life and should be put to rest. I do not see how they can continue to up the ante in terms of complexity and difficulty while still designing bosses that I find fun to fight. And to be clear. I spent longer stuck on Isshin than on Promised Consort. So I don't mind difficulty. But learning the boss has to be a fun process, and in SotE, I did not have fun learning the bosses.
I think FS need to seriously revamp and innovate their combat system if they are going to keep making these hyper fast and aggressive anime bosses. Sekiro and Bloodborne showed how aggression can be amplified while allowing the player to go toe to toe with the enemy, instead of feeling like there is a mismatch between the boss and the player. I personally would also be fine with a return to slower combat, but obviously most of the community doesn't want that.
Either way though, I do think something needs fixing, otherwise a large portion of people are just not gonna be having any fun with FS's bosses anymore, which imo would be a shame, because most of those people have been fans of FS for many years and just want to keep enjoying their games. You can never please everyone, but I think previous games showed that you can make bosses that most people enjoy, instead of making insanely divisive bosses.
Wow someone who actually makes sense, great write up. As a Souls vet w/ 2000+ hrs excluding DS2 I have a lot of mixed feelings about the direction FS has taken the combat to the point that I no longer feel comfortable pre-ordering their next title as I always have in the past. I don't want more of this or anything like it. I think going w/ something new would be best. Sekriro was a new concept and imo worked amazingly.
Slower, more weighty and meaningful combat needs to make a return imo.
Literally perfectly said. Granted I’m someone who is in love with SotE but I still find that I would like to have more opportunities to hit the boss even just a little bit more. It feels like I’m playing Dark Souls 1 with an extremely aggresive DS3 or sometimes Sekiro boss, just simply by the fact that I can only get a hit or two in. Ds1 was very methodical in it’s approach to slower combat, but you’re right in saying it doesn’t feel unfun because it’s about finding that rythym to match the boss and beat it rather than to sit down and workshop it like a school project. For me personally in every other fromsoft game it’s felt like I’ve learned how to dance with this certain enemy or boss, while in Elden Ring (even in the DLC that I love to death) it feels like I’m mostly trying to find the right answers to a specific question. Which in it’s own right can be fun and feel accomplishing, but I feel there’s just been a slight misstep. Like you said, most people arent doing no-hits, so in reality i’m throwing a jab or two at a giant health bar every other 20 seconds, and trying not to get hit.
@MarkHogan994 these are really good thoughts, thank you
This is not the first time souls vet cry because they have to actually adapt and are no longer able to fight on easy mode. Elden ring boss design is for elden ring and not dark souls. Bosses are more complex, you no longer dodge and get no hit, you have to position yourself, remember boss patterns, analyze the boss movement, anticipate. When sekiro came out a lot of souls fans were pissed of and saying that fromsoft should stick to normal souls games.
And seriously you are using the argument of him being a no hit runner and having his opinion affected by it. But for what I've hear the most with this discourse is that most of souls vet think they are no hit runners so get upset when they can't dodge every single hit. The average player is the one that doesn't care being hit as long as they can defeat the boss. The people who think they are too good (and its the games fault that they suck) on the other hand think that being hit is bad because they have some experience with previous games.
And who are you to determine the fun for people. Stats prove that elden ring has one of the highest completion rate, is the most sold game and has the most highest rating while literally the game is extremely long and difficult. This is what elden ring combat is about, freedom of choice and that is why i will always go back playing it instead of a game like bloodborne or sekiro that have almost no replay value after a certain time because you already know everything and becomes too easy
Elden ring combat is mostly rewarding. When you learn a boss move set which is extremely complicated you fell a sense of joy while in bloodborne you just need to parry every attack to trivialize the boss. Sekiro combat is good but is extremely restricted to just dudes with swords. At one point it just becomes repetitive. You cant fight a boss like ludwig with the system of sekiro. Any boss that is not sword leaning will be like demon of hatred. The combat in sekiro is satisfying just because the bosses have limited design
thanks for this video it always bothers me when people say the SOTE bosses have endless combos, its the worst with rellana everyone thinks she just has no punish windows and that she can extend combos indefinitely but she has clear and consistent punishes if you pay attention. she is super difficult tho, i have a character i do ng+ on a lot (it was at 72 when the dlc came out now its at 84) and after beating the dlc at SL1, rellana kills me more on my runs than radahn does lol she does insane damage, genuinely get one shot by her more often than any other boss, but i still love her she is probably my favorite dlc boss
yea this video is great ive been thinking about making a youtube channel just to make a video defending the bosses of the dlc but you’re saying everything i wanted to say but in a better way
Rellana and Gaius were 2 bosses that felt impossible in my first run and i had to summon to beat them. In my 2nd run i practiced a lot and the punish windows felt so natural i was almost toying with Rellana in the last few tries before i beat her and Gaius i somehow managed to beat him with an unupgraded weapon on blessing level 8, it was a lot of fun learning how to fight them.
Shadow of the Erdtree’s bosses are amazing, except Radahn, who I’m stuck on and don’t seem to be making any progress on. Phase 2 is insanity but that’s not necessarily because he doesn’t stop attacking, it’s because his attacks are so bizarre and tough to read.
I'm having the same problem. I've got the first phase down, but the second phase is such a crazy assault on the senses I'm finding it really difficult to discern what he's actually doing so I'm just in full panic mode which gets me killed very quickly.
More as a helpful advice than a defense, you guys can make It much more manaegable.
All of his combos are based on his first phase, so the timing is basically the same except perhaps Some AoEs you are forced to roll.
The best advice overall is to always roll foward. Rolling towards Radanh makes the lights go behind you and you wont get affected.
The second best advice is that at least to learn the attacks, is to invest on defense. Dragoncrest Shield Talisman, Opaline Hardtear, you know the stuff.
If you mix It with Marika Braid that offers holy damage resistance,and mix It with a decent Armour It wont be quick to loose.
Good luck to you two!
The second phase is made way easier once you start memorizing the timings to his phase 1 combos, which to me neutralized the many times Miquella's hair/Radahn's light beams "obscured" my vision during the 2nd phase.
Once I realized that phase 2 was essentially just phase 1 but with a few new attacks, is when my hatred for the boss started to dissipate, albeit slowly. I almost regret learning so much about him because at the end of the day, he is actually a very simple boss. And dare I say more simple than most base game bosses.
@@kenjid.guzman1170 I imagine that the biggest issue this person is having is with attacks that AREN'T in phase 1. The dodge timing on the one clone attack where he suddenly rises into the air and then spams clones is really finicky because the attack will often cause frame rate to drop.
they fixed radahn hes actually a mechanically good fight now
Wtf is wrong with people like for fuck sake you're fighting a boss so more fighting and less crying and complaining
My first play through felt Like hell, i tought it was a terrible experience, by the 3rd play trough i started to love the bosses and now (10th time playing and after having helped count less hosts) i love theese bosses soo much to the point i no hit mesmer and i am currently trying to no hit gaydhan
Completely unrelated. I would like to say that I was wrong about my assumptions that the triple slash would not be nerfed. I don't know what else was nerfed because the moment I learned about the triple slash nerf I went here.
Praise the sun
visibility issues fixed with the holy spells, recovery time on some attacks added or increased, performance improved, double slash cross fixed
I think people tired themselves out grinding a new character up to the dlc entrance point and then tried finishing it in a weekend because they are sick and have a skill issue with playing video games in general.
i understood that there were openings, but i really feel like it was a difference of seconds (maybe even just a few additional *frames*) that would've made them more rewarding. this can get worse when the input buffer carries your dodge out after receiving the final hit of the combo, which makes the previous combo ender and the next combo starter seem to flow together even more
Yeah but that's a FEELING, to a lot of others it really isn't bad at all. I don't know how you would make hitting a boss 'feel' more rewarding by increasing windows by literal frames. Neither people who like it or dislike it will feel the difference all the much.
Also on input buffering, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say FROMSOFT should tweak it a bit. I was originally gonna say "stop spamming roll" but since you're on this channel I'm assuming you're a person who can actually learn these games pretty well.
@@uryenatienza4093 let's say the correct dodge to get into position to retaliate is at an 80-degree angle. there are times where i would be a little off and roll in at something like an 82-degree angle. i'm safe, but i'm just that little bit farther, so the window closes just as i can move in. i know it sounds specific, but it really did happen fairly often to me. these micro-adjustments are exactly the kind of fine tuning that's hard to notice, but can pay dividends
then again, rykard kept moving into me to break the serpent hunter weapon art's pre-patch zero poise, which i never saw happen to anyone else, so maybe miyazaki or tanimura have it in for me
@@BeamSplashX that's what I mean, when I, or when I watch others play we no one really feels things like this. Also the game often asks you to keep moving or roll forward to dodge things, so things like this don't happen often if at all. Neither do I think there are any moves that demand this much precision other than point blank Waterfowl and PCR cross slash.
I think the very brief counterattack opportunities, it is what gives the illusion to the players of endless chains of combo attacks. 🤔 If they would have lengthen the recovery time slightly than it might not felt that way & we would also need to look at people's armament of choice, as swinging with a greatsword versus a dagger does not give people's the same perspectives of much opening windows.
I use golem halberd. There are plenty of opportunities to attack every boss in this game with that weapon. Sometimes you have to attack during a pause of the bosses combo, rather than waiting for them to finish the entire thing.
@dgalloway107 yea , it pretty much comes down to , the player's ability to distinguish which bosses combos are punishable enough and which ones are not to get hits in between.
they already followed your suggestion with messmer and midra. and i think it makes the fights worse, as a greatsword enjoyer
I agree w/ most of this however you neglected to mention that wep speed and recovery plays a big part of the openings. Some weps just wont allow a player to recover for the momentary window to counter thus resulting in the boss dealing dmg which is what gives the impression that bosses have long chain attack combos.
If a player uses a medium to faster attack wep your strat is perfectly valid. In short a lot of it comes down to the wep choice. I personally use med to faster attack and recovery weps as I found the slower weps while powerful got boring bc I had to wait longer to get the longer opening for safe recovery.
Just to be clear I actually had no issues w/ the boss attacks. My issue is w/ the terrible camera, hitboxes and Redahn's 2nd phase blinding aoe and Miquella's hair covering his back.
I consider myself a vet of Souls games (not a pro) w/ over 2000+ hrs combined w/ all games except DS2. The ER DLC put me in the position that I will no longer be pre ordering any future FS games and I will wait for reviews after ppl get past the honeymoon stage. I personally think FS broke their own formula w/ the DLC bc they've pushed their design past the breaking point.
If FS can only maintain boss difficulty by screwing the players vision, breaking hitboxes and giving bosses more i-frames during punishing openings thats not evolution thats flat out lazy fake difficulty design.
Nothing would make me happier to make a video proving my points as you have here but my time is limited as any free time I have I want to spend gaming and not proving what I already know.
I beat every boss with a colossal sword, and whenever I got hit it was always my fault, the boss normally had large enough opening for me to even run a charge attack build with mostly no problem, except on Rellana
i have a feeling slow weps are meant to be used with parries
@@fridging Not really, colossal main here, and there are plenty of times to land attacks. Even on Rellana. Yes they may be hard to find but thats the fun of wielding a motorcycle sized sword.
@@dgalloway107 oh no i agree i just think parries make it so much more useful, i played renalla with buckler parry and greatsword and the parries meant i could sneak in a chargie everytime after parry
Bro those blinding lights almost destroyed my eyes. Rahdan was not fun. I beat him of course but it wasn't fun. It took me one week to beat isshin in Sekiro. It didn't feel like bullshit. I couldn't beat him because I wasn't good enough....when fighting rahdan there were moves i dodged but still get hit and oh those bright lights Jesus!
Really good video. To be reductive, the point of these games is their difficulty. Their worlds are (generally) difficult to traverse, their stories are hard to parse, and the combat is brutal. They have themes and purpose outside of the difficulty, but they are inherently intertwined with the difficulty. Removing the difficulty blunts the emotional resonance of these experiences. I think a lot of people, especially the critics that whinge about the combat ad nauseum, don't truly understand that. I think a lot of the problem comes from souls veterans or people who've already played a lot of action games before going into souls expect to be fellated by the game due to their elite skills and bump heads against the intended design. I see repeated criticisms in the vein that the "bosses stop being fun after I died 20 times." That IS the fun, and if you went into the game expecting anything else your expectations of what the game should be are wrong, not the game's design. There are a handful of genuinely questionable design decisions with the elden ring boss roster, but it's all because fromsoft have pushed their difficulty to new heights in order to provide a new level of challenge for vets and having the combat systems of these games buckling under the weight of that design a bit.
You really completely misunderstand the issue. Most Souls vets DO want difficulty, none of us are asking for it to be removed. Look, I had a harder time with Isshin in Sekiro than any boss in SotE. Isshin took me a week to beat. Promised Consort took me 5 hours. But I love Isshin, and I dislike PC. Why? Because the process of learning Isshin was fun. I enjoyed getting good at that fight. Not so with PC. The reason people are criticizing the DLC is not because it's hard, it's because it's a type of difficulty we don't like. Denying that is disingenuous at worst, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the criticism at best.
You don't have to share these criticisms, but you have to at least acknowledge that not all types of difficulty are the same, and not all of them are fun to all players. Difficult does not automatically mean good. If you cannot imagine ways of making difficult bosses that wouldn't be fun then you lack imagination.
And again, I'm not asking you to agree with me that the DLC bosses weren't fun to learn. That is completely subjective. But please understand that this is the actual issue people like me have. The issue is not that it's difficult. The issue is that, for the 1st time in the series, it is difficult in a way that I don't enjoy.
Sekiro was the peak of FS boss design for me, and this game was a step back in my enjoyment.
@@MarkHogan994 id agree with pcr, bayle and metyr, theyre not fun imo. but the rest of the dlc bosses i thoroughly enjoyed
The boss I had a problem with was Radahn, no other boss in the DLC was particularly hard.
But i am entitled to victory. I beat Dark Souls, and my suffering was there. Now that l know how to play these games, I'm not supposed to be struggling anymore.
Nobody is entitled to anything. Reality doesn't give a shit what your percieved entitlements are. I deserve to not get my balls stomped by Commander Gaius but reality doesn't give one single shit.
My biggest problem with this video is that what an attack opening is or is not, seems rather arbitrary. For daggers, sure, you have a lot of openings, even mid combo. For a big and slow weapon R2 or a certain spell, even the "official" end of combo pause, a boss does, can be very narrow. Sometimes you have to mind your positioning and start the attack even when the bosses combo isn't quite finished for it to work. There are certain L2 attacks for weapons, that look very cool but are rather impractical due to their long animations.
Do bosses in ER have enough openings? Sure they do. Are those openings long enough? That's clearly a matter of opinion and far from any objective assessment because while the game gives you almost infinite freedom of builds, not every playstyle is suited for every boss - assuming that it's possible hitless.
Serious question...
Have you ever tried to play ER with a dagger? It's miserable... Particularly if you're you're not using AuX.
Generally, there are very few openings that aren't available with even the largest slowest weapons in the game. In most cases it's not a matter of 'can I capitalize on this opening?' but rather 'which attack can I use' for some weapons you may be able to get off a full CR2 or even multiple while if you're using a colossal maybe you can only R1 or R2 and must reserve CR2 attacks for the largest of windows (Generally finishers)
It's highly context dependent but in my experience most openings are available for an attack from most weapons it's simply a matter of which attack.
I use colossal hammers. There are plenty of attack openings for me. And for you.
Bro utilized a thesaurus for every conceivable utterance
@@Galamoth06 looking at his streams, I think he's kinda just like that.
Zoomers when they see someone speak in pre 2015 lingo:
I do concur that a selection of his utterances appear, in part, inadequate or gauche. (I agree that some of his word choices feel forced or clumsy)
@@hihyou None of his word choices were inadequate or gauche. "Gauche" means lacking in social grace / lacking in manners / socially insensitive / awkward / inappropriate / tactless, etc..., so it really doesn't apply at all in this situation.
His words were precise and eloquent, no clumsiness and certainly nothing that could be called "gauche".
it helps with improving my english so im not complaining. ive only been speaking this language for 6 years and dont know everything
except for radahn i dont think they attack too much however a lot of them respond too often to what the player does,be it healing or trying to engage for them to jump away or cancel combos to attack you etc
also ps
i dont and ive never thought these games are supposed to be hard. the difficulty was on purpose sure but demon souls dark souls 1 were hard because they were new type of games noones seen before and we had to understand the games language. after that they become extremely easy games. ever since dark souls 3 they solely focused the difficulty on the boss fights, the levels being a joke with constant checkpoints and trash mobs and not introducing a single new thing to the game language to understand. if youve played any dark souls you can play elden ring no problem. sekiro is the only one that tried something different to bring back that sense pf learning a new type of game
The biggest issue isn't necessarily the speed of the bosses, although I think it's still worthy of criticism.
The main problem is the player character speed being too slow to properly "dance" with the bosses.
how so?
What bosses do you believe this to be true of, besides PCR?
Literally apart from Radahn (who is now fixed and this does not apply to him anymore), and metyr who has the shitass black hole attack, which boss does this apply to? I genuinely cannot think of a single example. I used a colossal sword and I still don't agree with this statement.
I think you redefined the criticism on the assumption that critics are ignorant to the difference between "delays WITHIN a combo" and "delay BETWEEEN combos".
The IDLE animation(where a boss is simply standing or walking) is GREATLY reduced in SotE. Meaning, after a boss is FULLY done with a combo, they will go to their next attack/combo FASTER than in base game. A very simple test to exemplify this test is to turn on god mode where you take no action, and check the % of the time where a boss is not in an attack animation.
This is not to say the the PUNISH WINDOWS are lesser, since you can punish MID-COMBO and at the end of combos just like base game. But the downtime between combo A and combo B is greatly reduced. I think it's a welcome change, but I'm afraid you're responding to the wrong argument. Bosses in SotE "chain combos" faster than in base game.
This, also the bosses in the DLC have a lot more forward momentum and tracking on their combos than the base game. It's feels so much more oppressive because it's so much harder for the player to back off and disengage, especially when even if the player manages to create some space most of the bosses have gap closers or ranged attacks to punish a player regardless of distance.
Boo hoo? Its a fight, fucking move, christ.
@@dgalloway107 "I think it's a welcome change"... Guess you dislike reading.
Yes. They do.
Dark souls "veterans" when they face a slightly hard moment in the game that turns out to be easy if you use more than 2 braincells: "broo this game is difficult for the sake of being difficult 😡 how dare you making a good challenge"
I spent more time on Isshin than Radahn, and Isshin is way more fun and technical to play against than Radahn. Also my GPU doesn’t fucking crash when fighting Isshin.
Stop using strawmen to prove your point, it makes you look stupid.
@@Gotsyn well radahn is fixed now so whos stupid now hahaaa ( jk you couldnt know, enjoy new radahn )
The fact that you immediately resort to mocking the intelligence of people who don't agree with you shows exactly what kind of person you are. Yeah, I used more than 2 brain cells, and guess what, I still didn't like the boss design. Is that allowed or is daddy gonna get mad at me for having different tastes? Also please don't tell me I don't like challenge. I like fun challenges. Isshin was a fun challenge that took me a week. Consort radahn was an unfun challenge that took me 5 hours.
Difficulty is not the issue. FUN is the issue. And yes, it's subjective, but please don't insult people for daring to have a different opinion than you.
@@MarkHogan994 yes my friend, an "overexaggerated" Internet joke shows EXATCLY the kind of person I am, you're so right
I was talking about the "veterans", the people who think they're the best of the best, because a lot of them instantly say that something is "terrible/unfair/artificially difficulted" when they can't instantly defeat it, not if you had fun with it or not, pls, pay more attention before commenting something, and assuming that I'm a terrible person because of that is kinda ridiculous too
Putrescent JUST RUNS AWAY TOO MUCH MAN 😭 half his combos end up with him running away to throw his axe at me then leap in the air. An the one thing I hate the most is just when he finishes combos then does that stupid little slide around on his horse 45 feet away from me for like 5 seconds. I CANNOT STAND ITTTT. I can get hits in sure but I cannot stand him. Worse than elden beast especially now that we can ride torrent in there. But as far as too many attacks a not enough windows, nah. Maybe pre patch Radahn cuz there’s only enough time to hit him once with most weapon except daggers an or thrusting swords. But now he’s almost too slow. Idk how to feel about him tbh.
thats not the game's fault. if you just jump over putrescent knight's swings, you can hit him while he moves every time. i have a hitless guide that explains this further. you can punish like almost everything he does easily
Finnaly someone who appreciates the dlc and isn’t just calling it out it’s “flaws”
"Finally someone who appreciates the most critically acclaimed DLC of all time that most people have hailed as a masterpiece. I can't believe no one appreciated this DLC until this video!!"
I think a lot of people don't actually mean combo's LITERALLY never end, but the amount of strikes and the minuscule downtime can get ridiculous depending on the bosses.
Personally, the only real boss I have a huge problem with in a fundamental level is Consort Radahn. There's genuinely a lot of bad design elements, and that's accounting how fromsoft designed bosses throughout their history. Doesn't mean theses bosses can't be done hitless though, they always can with enough practice, but sometimes it gets pretty ridiculous, and 0.1% of the playerbase being able to do it is not a good indication there's nothing wrong.
That being said, I still agree the vast majority of SotE bosses are still fine, even if I died a lot to them. Bayle was probably my favorite.
They fixed radahn, cross slash is fine now and they got rid of most of the visual issues in p2. They also slowed down all of his attacks slightly.
food for thought
To me, a majority of the Shadow of the Erdtree bosses feel like classic DS3 bosses. I was honestly taken aback by the lowered skill ceiling.
A lot of them have "fixed combos" (combos that won't branch into other combos), obvious and punishable combo finishers, and simple attack avoidability (the bosses' attacks can simply be evaded using rolling or sprinting), almost no 2nd healthbars, etc.
Yes, even I think Promised Consort Radahn falls into that category of lowered difficulty, with attacks that need only be rolled and sprinted away from.
I don't think most of the bosses reach the level of intensity and complexity as say Maliketh, Godfrey, Malenia, Morgott, and Radahn.
It's not a knock at the bosses of the DLC bosses or DS3 bosses, It's simply something I noticed.
how about rellana, lion, romina, even messmer? of all of those bosses have a ton of complexity. putrescent knight has quite some depth too. idk what you mean
lmao what is this comment. ER fanatics are always trying to sell their bosses especially in base game as if they have more complexety than there actually is. A lot of vanilla ER bosses have the same fixed combos, obvious and punishable combo finishers. "Simple attack avoidability (the bosses' attacks can simply be evaded using rolling or sprinting)" what that even means lool, if anything SOTE gives you more opportunities to jump over boss attacks, but the core mechanic of rolling remains the same. By 2nd healthbar you mean 2nd boss in a row? Then thank god the normal progression in the boss fights is back again.
"I don't think most of the bosses reach the level of intensity and complexity as say Maliketh, Godfrey, Malenia, Morgott, and Radahn." No you didn't notice anything, you probably didn't even learn these fights if you believe bosses like Rellana, Messmer, Lion and even Gaius have less complexity and branches than the ones you mentioned.
@@dinb_dinb a lot of bosses in the base game AND dlc have tons of complexity. which makes sense because its the same game after all. bosses abide by the same design philosophy. saying that either side is simpler is pretty braindead imo. i do still think that morgott is the peak of boss complexity though
Edit: Posted this pre-nerf. Disregard.
Radahn definitely does. His attack rate in phase 2 is often faster than your stamina recharge speed (yes, even with the 2-headed turtle talisman) and using any weapon heavier than a straight sword will absolutely get you frame-trapped if you punish most of his attacks when he follows up with any combo that opens with a horizontal swipe, even if all you do is hit him with a single R1. By my count, there are 4 attacks in phase 1 and an additional 2 in phase 2 that are reliably punishable with melee attacks: The spinning gravity thrust, the 1-2-X combo that everyone hates, the 5-hitter that opens with either a stomp or an overhead slam, the Lion's claw, the phase 2 meteor/clone combo, and the phase 2 'Promised Consort' combo.
With any of his other attacks, you are absolutely risking getting frame-trapped with even a light attack punish because he can and will follow them up with one of his quickest attacks.
I'm not saying it's impossible to defeat him with a heavier weapon. I've done so myself multiple times. But I do think that your assessment is clouded by your use of a lighter weapon in your no-hit clear (by the way, you didn't take advantage of a lot of guard counter opportunities... just sayin'). For anyone using a colossal weapon, or even something like a great katana, this boss is absolutely no fun because of his tendency to frame-trap punishes. It leaves you stuck waiting for RNG to come up with one of the handful of punishable attacks.
This is stuff I figured out while grinding him at RL1. I was trying to figure out why I was having such a hard time avoiding certain attacks during standard runs, even when I seemingly timed my inputs correctly, and I realized that he was frame-trapping me so often.
I'll also note that Radahn's programmed attack sequencing will often cause him to use his "gap closer" attacks (namely the spinning gravity thrust, lion's claw and starcaller cry combo) when you're at close range during phase 2, which, in the latter 2 cases, can mean instant death because the lion's claw 'windup' has a hitbox and hits so quickly that it exceeds human capacity to properly react, while the follow-up to starcaller cry is virtually impossible to evade unless you're already in a position to sprint away from Radahn because it's a sequence of 3 separate progressive AOE attacks).
The rest of the bosses are fine. Better than fine, in fact. Messmer, Rellana, Bayle and Midra are 4 of the greatest bosses in the meta-series, and I also very much enjoy the Dancing Fursuit and Putrescent Knight (hell, I've even learned to like Gaius). But Radahn absolutely needs to have his behavior tweaked to not be a slog.
Spot on. The lack of openings Consort Rhadan has is the most frustrating aspect of the fight to me, even more than the cross slash.
Yes. Heavy, slower weapons will have fewer windows to attack because the tradeoff is that you should be dealing more damage/poise per hit. That is the entire point of heavy weapon classes lmao.
Deflect Tear + Royal Knight Determination will let you capitalize on those few openings you do get. It's very good actually, and the Ash of War is something I've recommended for Colossal weapons since the base game.
@@duvetboa Um, actually, the game forcing you to change your build is BAD DESIGN!
I understand your argument, but on the other hand I could argue that fighting Radahn with colossal weapons is more rewarding since you do vastly more damage and poise per hit than if you were using a lighter weapon (assuming your build is well optimized). It's the same trade off that occurs with any boss fight in regards to choosing between heavier weapons and lighter weapons.
Lighter weapons will give you more guaranteed openings but will usually cause the fight to drag on for longer due to the lower amount of damage and poise breaks. Heavy weapons will make the fight go quicker but will also make many potential openings more risky due to the longer recovery time. In my opinion this is a fair and balanced trade off and it is no different in the Consort Radahn fight. I beat Radahn with a Great Katana (a heavy weapon) using the Lions Claw ash of war. I didn't find the fight to be a slog at all and found many frequent openings where I could unload heavy damage using the ash of war.
I think ppl are thinking too much. Game fun. Game good
Exactly.
If people don't find the bosses fun, then they will think "Game not always fun. Game sometimes very unfun. Game not always good".
Well said
These games have been getting too fast for me. I liked Ds1 because it didnt have any of that.
0:56 As someone who has said the phrase "chaining combos together endlessly" I have to defend myself here 😂. Firstly, of course there's only a few bosses Id attribute this to like Maliketh. But that's kind of the point with him because his whole gimmick is positioning and creating openings. Secondly, I think this is just a silly battle of semantics. "They chain combos endlessly 🤓 " and then "no achtually there are just very narrow breaks 🤓 "
The key point to take home here is that bitching is for bitches.
Objection! Just recently I no-hit Maliketh with the Antspur Rapier (Impaling Thrust) and I hit him once every ~4.8 seconds in both phases (I went for charged R2 a few times. With more R1 I could've hit once per ~4.4 seconds). With the Estoc I could achieve even more hits due to its longer reach.
In my opinion he gives many attack openings throughout the whole fight.
@@ETBrooD Re-read my comment. Im not making a case that there are no openings. The whole point of his fight is creating openings and positioning.
@@austin0_bandit05 Yeah but Maliketh never chains combos endlessly. He gives a number of long attack openings (between attacks, not just with optimized positioning) especially in phase two. In phase one he has fewer actual pauses, but still plenty for any weapon of medium speed.
@@ETBrooD As I mention in my initial comment we're just arguing semantics when we dont actually disagree at all. As I aknowledge in my initial comment there ARE breaks in the combos. We're just arguing if they are or aren't big enough breaks to justify describing it as "endlessly stringing combos". Due to the nature of semantics you could even make the case that the slowest boss ever has "endlessly stringing combos" 😂. A boss that had "endlessly stringing combos" would be closer to describing Maliketh than Yhorm. Because what does stringing something together mean? To do said thing sequentially. You're hearing that and interpreting that I'm suggesting there is no time between when one combo ends and the other begins -which I'm not. Words are funny that way. Its merely expressing that these breaks between combos are short -sometimes so short that you might miss the opportunity. Indeed sometimes he'll just stand there for a few seconds and let you smack him
Yes, you're "supposed" to die in these games, but the thing is thing is though that beating most bosses on the third or fifth try used to be more of the standard. It used to be the rare exception that would be so hard it requires a dozen or more attempts. It's okay for a game to have a few nail-bitingly hard bosses that are extra challenging, but in Shadows of the Erdtree that was my experience with nearly EVERY reembrace boss, the only emptions being Tomina and Rellana. Although in Rallana's case I think that's only because she's still an early game boss that isn't scaled quite as high, making her otherwise seemingly relentless aggression eerier to endure.
For me the biggest "sin" of boss design isn't that they are too hard "objectively", but rather that they are too hard compared to the rest of the content in the DLC. It used to be in FromSoft's past games that if my build was good enough to reach a boss, that same build would also be good enough to beat the boss. In Shadows of the Erdtree, however, I was constantly having to change my loadout to beat each remembrance boss, and by the time I finally beat Miquella's Consort, I had changed so much that my character no longer really felt like my own anymore. It almost felt as if I was playing two different games. I'd be having fun exploring the world and engaging with the regular enemies and even the non-remembrance bosses, but all that fun would come to a crashing halt every time I reached a new reembrace boss
You claim that just beating a boss once while barely scraping by isn't enough to "appreciate" their design, but first impressions matter. For most players that first impression is all they'll ever have, and especially if a game leaves a bad taste in their mouth the first time around, they are never going to want to go back for seconds. People who aren't having fun learning a fight aren't going to want to put in the extra effort to master it.
I fundamentally disagree that this is all just part of the same cycle of fans complain initially only to turn around later and praise the very things they previously complained about. It's different this time, both because the complaints are more numerous this time around and coming from more high-profile sources that would usually have defended the game's difficulty in the past.
I wield a colossal hammer. I don't find, in my game anyway, that there is ANY boss who has ZERO openings for me. I beat Malenia multiple times with two golem halberds, and Radahn still got beat with a Golem halberd, i just had to use a shield occasionally. Also, you arent using the things that make dodging easier, such as bloodhound step, and if you want to play a deflect character then use the crystal tear that in the beginning of the dlc, carried by the single easiest furnace golem in the game.
@@dgalloway107: I'm also a colossal weapon enjoyer, and have been ever since I first got the Demon's Great Hammer back in Dark Souls. Honestly, it's probably another reason I found Rellana "easier" than some other people have, because as a smaller boss, colossal weapons can actually stagger her out of her combos.
Seriously though, do you not see how insultingly reductive it is to say just use Bloodhound Step or the Deflecting Hardtear? A game that conceptually has so many different options to choose from as Elden Ring does shouldn't be so reliant on specific loadouts like that.
Heck, the Deflecting Hardtier in particular only reenforces my problem of feeling like fighting bosses and exploring the world is like playing two different games. Because the effect is on a limited use timer it's not just something I can passively rely on against regular enemies, meaning I'm not practicing those same perfect block timings in-between bosses.
@@EmeralBookwise with every boss having a grace before it, I just pop the Hardtear whenever I'm near an "elite enemy" (Like those hornsent warriors), because chances are I'll be able to recharge it soon anyways.
@@joaoluizkfsantos8392: That's all good and well for a second playthrough maybe. On a first playthrough, however, I prefer to be able to take a slower and more methodical pace to my exploration. The last thing I want is some single use buff counting down in the background making me feel as though I have to rush through in case I still need it for another enemy.
I also don't like leaving these things up to chance, especially not when some bosses only have a Stake of Marika and instead of a full on Grace.
Not to mention with how little damage furnace golems take when just smacking their legs, quite a few players aren't gonna even guess you can knock them down for a critical that can two-shot it. Even if the deflecting hardtear comes from the first and ostensibly easiest golem, I imagine a fare few players, myself included, are gonna assume there's some other trick to beating them or that it's just something to come back to later with a high scadutree blessing.
@@EmeralBookwise while I'd love for deflecting to be a base mechanic without a timer, the complaints you brought up sound too nitpicky, and even too theoretical (more potential problems than grievances born of experience)
Some bosses only have stakes, so you attempt them without full resources (likely less healing, low MP, no flask), die and come back in 30 seconds with such resources. Was never a real issue.
And while the buff is great to have, big weapons function quite well without it, especially during exploration, where most normal enemies can be stunlocked with little issue. If the timer ever runs out, I just proceed as normal.
Besides, just using a shield is enough to continue with a guard counter centric play style, if that's what a player was going for.
I get it, mental roadblocks are a hell of a drug, but they are impossible to account for completely. Some players are incapable of using consumables they "might need later", doesn't mean consumables are inherently an issue that should be fixed.
love ur content bro
I hope people complaining about the hitboxes never play Dark Souls II
I mean Idk how another game being worse makes it an invalid complaint tbh
@@hj-hv6rtthat's true, HOWEVER, the hitbox complaints in ER are 100% overblown. Radahn and Gaius having scuffed hitboxes during certain moves doesn't immediately put Elden Ring's boss design down the gutter.
@@uryenatienza4093exactly, well said
@@uryenatienza4093 I think the SotE bosses are very good for the most part, I just think they could be even better
@@hj-hv6rt I feel ER is their current testing ground for this kind of combat. I'm sure in future games, Souls-likes or not, that's when we'll truly see the potential of modern FROMSOFT boss design.
I should say though that some of Elden Ring is pretty peak tho. Mohg, Morgott, Maliketh, Radagon (no Elden Beast) and Messmer is what I'd argue to be the best of the modern philosophy. Bayle and the Lion would be there too if they got better camera systems, and bosses like Malenia with some tweaks to Waterfowl would be up there too.
I would say to everybody to go back and try these bosses again especially radahn but with the deflecting hardtear, you will find the bosses so much more fun and rewarding
Yeah, I did a run focusing on both parrying and deflecting at the same time and guess what, thanks to guard breaks and parries now I have more room to breath. Most people aren't really using all the tools available to them and it shows
@@steeltarkus58 hell yeah dude, guard counters do massive poise damage and if you get 4 deflects in a row you do massive damage especially if you stack it with royal nights resolve
Hell yeah, Deflecting Hardtear carries the Radahn fight and even allows you to exploit some sick midcombo openings.
I love the fight with the tear on
Content creators are just as casual as normal players tbh.
interesting
Yeah they are. Every boss in ER attack too much. It's design philosophy and some people find it unenjoyable. You can't substantially "debunk" points of view, taste and preferences. There is no point in videos like this.
How is the point of this video a subjective matter?
@@TheSchollar this video made as a response to people who didn't like design of the bosses. Particularly in attack speed department and aggression rate.
This is subjective matter. Some people like this, some don't. So, this video is a response to subjective taste. So, this video is about subjective stuff.
And yes, I already say exactly that in my first comment just using different set of words 🤣
I’ve heard so many people say they went back into the base game after the DLC and it felt like a cake walk. As someone who went straight into a new RL1 run after finishing the DLC, no…. They’re still tough. All bosses are easier once you learn how to fight them. I don’t know why this is a difficult concept for some.
why would you judge boss difficulty off a level 1 character though...
@@lemonnade5974 I did the dlc at RL1 too so that’s what I mean when I compare. I’m just saying that I don’t agree that the DLC bosses are significantly harder than the base game bosses. I’d say over half over them are easier than the late game base bosses.
most dlc remembrances are easier than the base game endgame bosses imo
@@glisteninggames2981makes sense, though the DLC is definitely expecting more endgame players, it can still be reasonably opted in by players in the late mid game. So ofc not all bosses were endgame levels of difficulty.
> boss combos are not a problem
> light roll
Aside from Consort Radahn and Rellana, all the DLC bosses are almost incredibly simple, even more so than the base game, not the other way around. Literally almost every boss in SoTE is like a step down in complexity and combo durations/variations. There are also less delayed attacks, and less overall moves between the bosses. That's the one thing I loved about the DLC, but also something I wish wasn't the case since I genuinely would've preferred to fight bosses that were just as complex as the base game, if not more so.
id recommend fighting lion, romina and messmer, they are also complex. even putrescent knight allows for tons of skill expression
@@glisteninggames2981 I forgot to mention Lion as well. He's very fun too and is indeed a fairly complex boss. Still doesn't quite come close to the complexity of Rellana.
Also, I said Radahn was complex, but yeah. I was wrong. He's only complex from the surface due to the amount of moves he has at his disposal. In reality, he's actually pretty simple since he doesn't allow for much combat freedom and expression compared to the other bosses. I'd argue that he's the only boss of the DLC where you are rewarded for playing it more optimally-- which is 1 or 2 ways, than to play it creatively.
Messmer strikes a good balance between being very simple and complex, but he is for the most part, still quite simple for me. The only hard part was learning when to figure out the timing of his delays-- which he doesn't have too many of. Romina being complex though? That, I don't quite agree with since aside from a few moves, practically all of her moves are pretty easy to read and avoid.
I also forgot to mention Bayle (my bad). He is undoubtedly mechnically complex as it took me over an hour to fully figure out his moveset. That's what made him one of my favorite bosses in the DLC and of all-time.
So in short, aside from maybe 2 or 3 bosses out of 11 bosses (Bayle, Rellana and maybe Putrescent Knight?) I think pretty much all the bosses in the game are very simple, or at least simplified when compared to base game bosses. They all gave me this sense of being very akin to DS3 bosses while also being fairly similar to Elden Ring bosses. Messmer is the best in this regard, and I can see why so many people consider him to be the new best boss.
@@kenjid.guzman1170 im not really following. what aspects would a 'complex' boss have according to you? i think we have different definitions for this
@@glisteninggames2981 Mixups, delayed attacks... move variations, varying combos, etc, etc. Do you have to position yourself properly? Is there more than just rolling when it comes to avoiding attacks (jumping, running away, strafing, etc)? How many punish windows does the boss have (or more importantly, how many can you yourself discover?) Basically how long would it realistically take for you to fully figure out a boss' moveset and even when you've figured it out, you still have issues anticipating whatever they'll throw at you? Rellana fits the bill of being complex perfectly since aside from her being hard to read, you also have to position yourself perfectly against her attacks. In short, she's a very tricky opponent to fight, and she still trips me up every time I fight her.
Consort Radahn I thought was very complex too, but aside from him changing his combos, he is a very straightforward boss with no other optimal way of dodging his moves other than dodging left all the time.
Bayle is also complex in the sense that his moveset feels quite varied. I've learned him pretty decently already, but he can still be fairly unpredictable at times. Imo, he is a game of proper positioning, anticipation, and needing good reflexes and a degree of pattern recognition just to dodge some of his attacks that can be very hard to see coming unless you're paying very close attention.
Messmer as I said before, strikes a good balance between being very simple while also being fairly complex. Unlike most bosses, he doesn't have many mix-ups under his disposal that can really stump you. And once you learn the proper timing to pretty much all his moves, whatever "complexity" he might have is thrown out of the window. It's a different story when you're still learning him though.
The more complex a boss is, the more time is needed to gain a thorough understanding of their moveset, which also means a more creative, less strict combat expression, thereby making them more replayable and therefore more fun to fight (not always tho lol).
Most bosses in the DLC, by my definition, weren't all that complex. In fact, I was quite disappointed that there weren't many differing methods and tactics of beating some of them properly. I don't find myself wishing to refight Midra, Romina, Putrescent, or Scadutree all that often, whereas the others are a special case (Consort Radahn though is a weird case, but that is specifically because he is different from what many of the base game bosses were like. Surprisingly very simple but overwhelming and kind of stressful to fight, whereas the others were complex to the point that it felt overwhelming, but in actuality, are pretty relaxing and/or invigorating to fight, at least for me).
@@kenjid.guzman1170 Oh yeah that makes sense now. I was just confused about your statement regarding Romina, so I expected your definition of complex to be different than mine. But anyway, Romina is actually very complex. You have to keep account of 3 sources of damage ( polearm, centipede, stinger ) and all 3 require different responses from you. The polearm you roll through and duck if you're close to her so you can get an extra punish. The centipede you can roll, but also jump over for jumping attacks. The stinger she doesnt use often, but if you're positioned well it misses you.
There are also multiple attacks she does that require directional rolling and clever positioning to avoid, most of which use 2 of her damage sources combined together. Her butterflies kinda drag her down but you need good positioning to avoid them as well.
Messmer also has quite a bit of complexity. For example you can bait out his triple thrust after a certain attack, and use it to strafe those attacks or even jump them for a better punish. Many of his moves can be jumped or strafed, also require directional rolling
I personally dislike Bayle because of how janky he is lol, but you do you
thanks for taking the time to explain
10:27 This would be good n all if weapons, skills and spells were balanced the same but thats not the case and thus makes these bosses annoyingly tedious.
I disagree massively.
If all weapons and skills were balanced the same, it'd remove the thought in using them and their mechanical differences. Every weapon needs some pros and cons, balancing them to basically become the same would just make them reskins for a programmed damage box. It would remove variety and thought in using them. Different weapons and tools shouldn't be used with the same mindset.
The simplest form of this is range Vs melee, a ranged fighter would probably back up way more than the average melee fighter. However it runs so much deeper than that. Fast weapons can attack bosses at times slow weapons can't, slow weapons take advantage of larger openings better and generally get better stance damage, having spells with a melee weapon gives you ranged options during the down time of a boss, throwing knives keep stance pressure up, pots have status effects and give access to damage types you might not have on your build, certain spells can be used to duck/jump over attacks.
This isn't a problem of balance, it's a lack of creative thinking. It could also be poor build optimization.
@@uryenatienza4093 No amount of creative thinking is going to make a 5 second attack with no hyper armor useful over something in the same speed similarities of catch flame/carian slicer/impaling thrust variant 69#.
It's most certainly a balance problem, you think you are smart and try to do big damage on a large opening like Bayle's nuke with a spell like Rellanas Twin Moon. Nope he immediately recovers with that shtty roar attack and you are punished for playing the game. I can come up with many examples like this.
This is why I love Poleblade of the Bud, it's flashy, fast, aerial ability while having mobility to get you out of reach on attacks. However I couldn't say the same for other abilities with long cast times/multiple inputs.
@@dvdivine1962 I should relent though that some things should obviously be more powerful, at bare especially in the niches they cover. But I still hold on to the argument that if everything was "balanced" in a way to make them all equally useful for every boss is still a bad idea. That's because to make everything valid for most situations would be to make them all behave the exact same way. That's the problem with the variety of stance breaking ashes of war, they're all the same. If every big attack spell was given better poise then every supper attack spell becomes the same.
That's why it's a matter of creativity. I don't think using Rellana's Twin Moons during Bayle's very obvious big opening is very creative, because that's what everyone thinks the opening will be, that's why the devs designed so many of the bosses this way. Find openings, attack in different ways, and Is it even really a problem that certain things don't work in certain situations? They shouldn't. It feeds into both the tools' unique trait while also going into Miyazaki's whole thing about giving people different experiences with the same game. The faith build will trounce some bosses, and struggle with others, same goes for the strength build.
The fact you're using Poleblade of the Bud proves this, by all means that weapon isn't the most optimal thing in the world, but with creative and proper use of its ash of war, you'll get plenty of reward both extrinsic and more importantly, intrinsic. Cause it's fun.
That's another thing I should've probably specified, having fun is more important than just having your tool be good, by all means something bad can still be fun if it's interesting enough. If we are gonna criticise balance, then it isn't that most things suck, it's that it's too easy to optimize the good simple shit.
P.S. I should also apologise if I sounded a bit toxic, but I just found your comment so reductive of Elden Ring's systems it was frustrating.
Great video! Couldn't agree more.
If you beat them in less than 5 tries "You're probably tangling with the wrong franchise"?
Lol I've played almost every Soulsborne with the exception of Bloodborne and Demon Souls and generally each game has at most a couple of bosses that takes more than 5 tries, and generally they are pivotal points of the game. In Elden Ring most remembrance bosses take more than that. You can say I am tangling at most with the wrong game, but calling it "as it has always been" is wayyyyyyy too much of a stretch for most souls games.
You misrepresented all the criticism pointed so you can have an argument, so here I will put what truly taints the experience from Elden Ring boss design:
- Some of the moves are misleading by using way bigger hitboxes than they really are (Radahn's ground attacks for example), or by cancelling recovery animations (a problem that has been there plaguing the game since Maggot). I won't even put delayed attacks since, despite annoying, they still feel fair for punishing players that panic roll.
Long combos aren't the real problem, but the fact that sometimes bosses cancel their recoveries and get that "Gotcha" cheap move. Much of the bosses movesets are ambiguous, like Radahn's Lion's Claw attack.
The main problem with this is that generally it breakes the flow of the game like never before. You HAVE TO stop the game and focus on learning how this one specific attack is specifically countered so you can move forward, generally by trial and error or by going to the internet looking on how to avoid it. Yes, FS games always have some stalls where people go to the internet looking for where to go, as most exploration games always did, but Elden Ring pushed that aspect into boss fights. Now you generally need to search for things outside the game of waste a lot of time with trial and error trying to dodge boar ram.
This is coming from someone who liked most DLCs bosses, as Bayle, Rellanna and Messmer are my favorites. But Radhan and Commander Gaius are atrocities that have their purposes be to annoy and halt progress. Those fights aren't fun even when you beat them.
idk i think gaius is really enjoyable. fun positioning strats you can try. the only boss that can cancel recoveries is malenia. and if you have to go on the internet so challenge runners can spoonfeed you dodge methods because you cant experiment yourself, then thats not on the game imo
SotE dialed the difficulty up by putting it in a place where this kind of analysis is highly relevant. And it is pushing many people past the point where they have to reconsider how they play and which tools they dip into using. And I think where that gets very dicey is when people start to say "But that is my build and I shouldn't have to change it." But the reality is that going ahead and using vs omitting certain tools, to even include weapon style choices, has always been one of the 'invisible' difficulty sliders in souls+ games. The people no hit Let Me Solo Them'ing Radahn with good old dodging around, with correct positioning, and a medium speed or faster melee weapon demonstrate the lie of the complaints that the powerful tools become required and that it has ceased to be fair though.
Correct. When the game is too hard because of my stubborn build choices (low vigor, no summons, no "OP shit", no crafting, etc), I don't think the game is too difficult. _I_ am the one making the game difficult. Because that's how I fucking like it. And I will never complain about the game's difficulty when I'm the one making it this hard.
I also think a lot of the people that complain about build changing miss one of the points of the series. The idea that every player will have a unique story to tell after their first play through.
I remember watching a critique of the game, I forgot who it was or whether or not I liked it, but a point everyone seemed to dislike was that the build changing in Elden Ring was good thing. A lot of them argued that the game was poorly balanced because of it, however I disagreed.
The point is to have each player's experience be different. The same builds shouldn't struggle the same way during every boss because that would not make any sense in the lore, and it'd remove a key feature of the franchise. That being some people will trounce some bosses, while others will hit the thickest of brick walls trying to beat others.
People are forgetting the rpg aspect of this action rpg.
I feel in general the point of using different tools isn't even that you have to use certain tools, instead it is just to have a complete functioning build, which can cover all grounds.
I think the "Tutorial Boss" usually displays the skills that the player should also be employing. Genichiro and Margit are the examples of that.
And what does Margit do?
He uses a variety of quick and slow attacks and has a ranged option.
As long as you can cover all of these bases, you will be able to consistently deal with everything a boss can throw at you.
Does a boss have a long window of attack?
Use a slow attack with big stance damage.
Does a boss jump away after a combo? Use ranged attacks. That can be magic, consumables, ashes of war or now smithscript weapons.
Does a boss not have consistent enough openings for your big weapon to get stance breaks?
Use a quick option, which can again be magic, consumables or ashes of war.
Still, for the most part, this is not needed, only for optimal play.
I wanted to consistently stance break Promised Consort Radahn with Messmers Spear, so to improve my chances, I started throwing knives inbetween his slower combo start ups.
If he went to far away I used the smithscript heavy of the Spear.
I really, REALLY wish people would stop making this argument. I've found it so incredibly obnoxious and annoying that I've honestly considered making a video myself just to respond to it. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to edit and I'm not a good speaker.
The idea that challenge runners no hit bosses therefore people's complaints are invalid is COMPLETELY absurd.
1. Challenge runners are often EXTREMELY critical of the bosses themselves. Go look at Ooloh's Radahn criticism. BDBrian and Jordien are both extremely critical of bosses including Malenia who the co-wrote an entire guide on and criticized her within the guide.
2. Just because something CAN be no hit doesn't mean it's in any way reasonable. A perfect example is something like Elden Stars. This attack is a complete non issue for no hit runners at this point. It's been solved for quite some time. HOWEVER, the attack is still rubbish. I've no hit Elden Beast literally dozens of times I can confidently and reliably avoid the attack, and I still think it's garbage.
3. This kind of builds on the previous point but often avoiding being hit strongly dictates how you are able to approach an encounter. This was highlighted in the video with Metyr, this boss has been solved hitless but the way to do it reliably requires a ton of tedium and running away/heavy AI manipulation. This is not only completely unreasonably for an average player but also extremely unengaging.
At the end of the day fair is going to be subjective based on how you choose to define the term. Furthermore, it really says nothing about quality. Imo, a boss is fair if everything in their kit can be consistently avoidable and responded to by the tools available on every players base kit. By this definition Malenia is entirely fair, and Mohg is not. However, I definitely think Mohg is the better boss personally. By extension a boss like PCR is technically fair but is absolute garbage imo.
Essentially, what I'm getting at is no hit runs can be used or cited to demonstrate CONSISTENCY but they say absolutely nothing about quality.
Whatever, this "hug boss ass and roll-roll-roll-poke" loop is getting dated already. Time for FS to step up their combatplay and maybe even write it from scratch.
@@nacorcarmonablanco4414 that's a pretty shit arguement, especially since ER does a great job at making this reactionary play unique. With positioning and the unique ways you can play with builds (and I mean that in a way that isn't just slamming them with damage).
That literally sounds nothing like elden ring... ER is known for not letting you sniff ass the whole bossfight
@@uryenatienza4093 Yeah you can build a ranged only mage or a tank shield + spear, or neglect most humanoid bosses with parry, so what? Most builds are based on dodge > poke, thats a fact.
@@nacorcarmonablanco4414 and that's outdated and needs to change? Once again the game does a great job putting variety through positioning, the necessity to dodge in a certain direction, the fact that bosses don't just let you hit for free anymore (at least most).
Elden Ring is the step up in FROMSOFT'S combat, it's a rocky one, but it is still one. Elden Ring is a great direction for their bosses, and this is the step-up.
The reason I'm arguing against you is because I don't want FROMSOFT to abandon its unique niche in combat just so they can replace it with something more generic. No other games play like FROMSOFT, and that includes games inspired by their design.
I'm tired of people that think this reactive enemy focused combat is OBJECTIVELY worse than other forms of combat in video games. That's just not true.
Also saying it's "tiring" isn't really a point when there are plenty of people who'd happily want more, like me.
@@uryenatienza4093 Yeah, its outdated, its a design from more than a decade ago, that got improvements over time, but base combat is the same. They have indeed added new mechanics like timed blocks in the dlc, but at the end, if you watch how most people play, it is mostly dodge > poke. And most bosses, specially big ones, are better being fought hugging their asses (being this yt video an example of that).
They can and should do better for next projects.
This game is supposed to be hard. Aaaand you lost me
Basically, people lack the skills Dark Souls 2 taught 😅
A more respectful and scientific way of saying “get good” 😂.
Seriously though, great video.
The reality is that dark souls 2 two is a shit game