I love how the topic of this video was covered in God of War Ragnarok: Valhalla. In the DLC Kratos told Mimir and Tyr that he always knew the consequenses of his actions, but in that point he wasn't going to stop until the death of Zeus. Tyr explains this Paradox with Helios. In Chains of Olympus Kratos saves Helios from Atlas and Persephone, resulting in Helios himself saving Kratos at the end of the game. In GOW 3 he murdered Helios without a justified reason, they didn't hated each other, they just had opposite goals. Tyr said that Kratos always had an conflictive and complex nature, that the difference between the Young and Old Kratos are the knowledge and wisdom he gained. At the end, Pandora showed us that even in the lowest that Kratos ever was, even being that mercyless monster, Kratos still had some humanity inside him, he always had his family in mind. That's why Kratos saw his daughter in Pandora, she was there in the journey almost from the beginning, and i would even say that Kratos empathizes with Hephaestus situation.
Kratos is more of a reactionary character than a pure monster. The gods at all turns dealt him bad hands and consistently used him as their pawn, and when he snapped back, he ended up causing a lot of collateral. Not to say he didn't do horrific things such as the shipman, his path of conquest with Sparta as a god, & Poseidon's daughter, but he is still just a broken man who was on the path of vengeance for what these people did to him that was wrong.
This another example of the craze of using the phrase "paradox" in the wrong way. Paradox does not mean performing actions in contrary to those you performed in the past. Paradox refers to the action itself being contradictory to ITSELF.
Kratos smiling when Atreus saying don’t be sorry Be Better Shows how much character development Kratos has had and how hes different from The Kratos who killed the Gods of Olympus
God of War 4: "you redeem yourself Kratos I am with you" God of War 5 Ragnarok: "Keep cooking Kratos!" God of War 5 Ragnarok-Vallhala: "Hooray to new Norse God of War"
The best way I could describe it is that kratos is like a universal level example of an overly broken, beaten, and abused dog. God of war 3 is the tail end of a story about what happens when you’ve pushed the dog too far and decides to basically rip your throat out. It’s the answer to the question of what would happen if you push someone too far. We’re not exactly meant to side with kratos but mainly empathize with him to a certain extent. We can’t excuse his actions to those who didn’t deserve it but remember that when you’re that angry and at that limit emotionally, there is no reasoning or capability of rational thought, you only see red and we have all done or said some bad stuff when we get mad sometimes and these are the types of things the overall 6 game Greek story tackles. And let’s face it we all get a kick out of seeing a shitty dog owner in a movie get his or her karmic justice with the dog getting his revenge for all the abuse and god of war 3 is literally just that. We are meant to side with him for that at least but also understand that it’s not ok to take your anger on those who didn’t deserve it either and to understand just how damaging unchecked rage can be. That’s just my perspective at least. I’m stoned so take this with what you will.
@@bootiebutter what I love about the old GoW games is incredible storytelling that is hidden. There is always depths you can reach but the games trick you into thinking it’s shallow when it’s actually good and really well written. GoW3 is the question of when it’s too far? Like we get Kratos we understand him we feel bad for him. Yet we don’t agree with his actions it’s just amazing diversity in writing that makes you think “who is the right side” when the real question is “is there a right side?” It’s so beautiful and under appreciated it’s just sad actually
@@bootiebutter Pandora is the real hero Kratos is the protagonist but he is tormented not a good person necessarily he did want to change and had the determination to do so but his environment was just not helping him Besides Kratos’s Actions in GoW3 can be viewed as straight up heroic because he rid the world of the tyrants
Personally i see kratos as a depicton of the people who simply couldn't overcome, it doesn't mean your'e weak or that you did something necessarily wrong but being honest not everyone manages to pull through their own struggle and in a comunnity were people gravitate more often on to highly enduring and motivational characters its nice to have someone that actually shows you and tackles the other side of the spectrum. I also feel is the main reason why old kratos often faces so much backlash cause people thing that if you don't have any type of slight character growht and don't overcome the problem by the end of the story your character simply sucks, it might not be that kratos is just misunderstood but a chunk of the people that actually get the message actively reject it as no one wants to now about the people that didn't get to the finish line, it reminds me a bit to toxic posivility now that i think about it...
The truth is...Kratos _never lost me._ And these past few years made me think I was alone in that regard. See, what Kratos does _is monstrous._ But to me, it never mattered because when you get down to it, no matter how bad Kratos was...the Gods and the Titans _were even worse._ The world was living under their despotic rule and humanity could literally do _nothing_ to stand up to them...Then, out of nowhere, this Spartan warrior rises up and _kills Ares,_ the God of War. Kratos did the impossible; showed that the unstoppable were in-fact _stoppable._ That the immortal, were in-fact _mortal._ And that humanity _had a chance._ The whole idea of "Hope" being the secret weapon against the Gods and Titans to me was the _entire theme_ of the franchise. The fact that the world was run by these despots who think they're bigger and better than everyone else, and one-man rose up to challenge them. Sure, the world is in bad shape after the Olympians died - but you have to realize that _this was the Olympians' doing._ This was their fail-safe to ensure they could never be killed, because there would be consequences if they ever were. The world still existed after the Titans were killed or imprisoned, so this was clearly a domino-effect that the gods set-up. The point is...now that the Gods and Titans are gone, _humanity has a chance._ The world is flooded, disease run rampant, plants are dying, and there's a sky-blotting storm...But y'know what? _Humanity is going to survive._ And it's because of Kratos. By releasing Hope onto the world, Humanity now has something to live-for. They have a Hope; they have a fighting-chance. And this was the point of the franchise; the final room of Pandora's Temple, a mural on the floor depicting Men rising up _against the gods._ Described as a vision of the future; and that same mural reappears in God of War 2. And guess what? _The World isn't destroyed._ The Norse Games have confirmed it, but the thing is, _this was set-up from as far back as the first game._ There have been hints since the beginning that the world was _bigger_ than what we saw. That the _other religions_ of the world existed, and it was clear that the Greeks _only controlled their corner of the world._ (This was teased in God of War 2, and the original idea for God of War III was that Kratos was going to kill his way through Norse and Egyptian pantheons as they tried to muscle-in on Olympus during Kratos' rampage.) So yeah, the point is, the only section of the world that got wiped was Greece; humanity _wasn't wiped out,_ and all that was really accomplished was that there was one-less pantheon of assholes running the place.
In other words, in the short term, Kratos is a monster. In the long term, Kratos is a hero, but the positive impacts won't be seen by the Greek people for hundreds, if not thousands of years until after Kratos finally dies a final death.
@@user-bz9of6tn6l it won't take that long for the positive impact. The next generation that survived the cataclysm will have hope on their side now. Without the gods that controlled their fate for so long, the greek people can rebuild and choose how they want to live their lives without being consumed by fear. If kratos had given up on his revenge the greek lands would have eventually consumed by fear. There wouldn't be any hope for the people at that point. So in a way you can call what kratos did resulted in a greater good. Although it still won't change the fact that he will be considered as a monster by the Greeks for at least a few centuries.
Despite his actions, kratos is but the end result about what happens when godly manipulation becomes too cruel and one god in particular creates a monster that could kill an entire pantheon. If kratos didnt exist than 'another' kratos-type would eventually come instead, and if ares didnt make him eventually some other god would have instead. It was a story that was inevitable as it was tragic. If the gods allowed Kratos to have his memories erased or allowed him to be with his family in the afterlife this wouldn't have happened, sadly the only thing stupider than ares creating a warrior that destroy a pantheon only to have that same warrior kill you out of vengeance was to make him a god and expect him to behave all nice and such without fixing the underlying problems that plagued him and worse yet provoking his wrath further. Kratos utimately didn't care for status or power, all he really wanted was peace however the gods denied him that. Since he couldnt gain peace through morally sane means, he had to gain it in the only way he knew how: Through war. Regardless of Kratos's crimes or how neccessary to the worlds wellbeing the greek gods were, what their rule did was neither kind nor logical and since kratos had nothing to live for, he had nothing to lose. Anyone else if they are capable of being as broken and badass as kratos would have probably done the same thing as he did. Such a society that does such a thing without reservation, the destruction of the world would be suitable both as a punishment and a mercy.
The whole appeal of gow 2 and 3 is basically “man greek gods are such assholes right….wanna play a game where you can fight them and teach em a lesson ?”
He was never a hero in the original trilogy, even before he became a servant to ares he was a ruthless spartan general who razed village after village, abandoning his family in search of constant war and battle
@@rurounijay7100 yeah but that's based on his past, what he was doing in the present was being tasked to kill Ares, who was using his powers to destroy Greece against the God's wishes. He was objectively doing the right thing.
@@sorterwoodsteel was he doing the “right thing” cause he was motivated by a pure non biased justice? Or was he tasked? Whats more, did he do it for the right reason? Or better yet, after he “did a good thing” (he slaughtered countless innocents during this journey to kill ares), he was offered the same title, and what did he do with the power? Be arguably worse than ares was. Kratos was never a hero. Not until ragnarok.
I disagree that it's a Paradox. I think that at the start of God of War 3 Kratos is just about to reach his peak Rage and blood lust and after Gaia betrays him, he is gone, but as God of War 3 progresses he slowly starts to become disgusted with what he has done. The tipping point comes after he sees Daedalus dead, hanging on the chains. And Kratos's progression throughout the trilogy makes perfect sense, I'd say it's very accurate to human psychology and how real person would be, especially if that person had the power of Kratos. God of War 3 let's us ride with Kratos seeing what he has been through in the previous games, we are 100% behind him at the start of God of War 3 and just like him, we slowly start to see that vengeance is not the answer by the end of the game. They don't try to redeem Kratos, they try to show the player that vengeance at all cost is absolutely wrong, it leads to monstrosities and turns you into a monster.
lmao fr, people don't understand just how much power corrupts people to do things they wouldn't think of doing had they not had that power. if you gave a irl human the same powers kratos had its a guarantee they will be burning society to the ground or at the very least use there power to destroy something important
I think the thing that really irked me in this video was him proclaiming that the ending of GoW 3 was to "get the player to empathize." Imo that's way too myopic and frankly a simple minded way to view that ending. I think regret for taking things too far is a very human emotion, we even see this in real life with some people we'd probably consider to be the most depraved in society. I guess you could argue in their case too they only show regret to garner sympathy, but I think to completely deconstruct the entire emotion of regret as a manipulative tactic (whether from a narrative standpoint or a sociological standpoint) is a level of misanthropy that I guess I have yet to reach. To put it simply, I think the ending certainly does have the player empathize with Kratos at least in some capacity, but I think that ultimately this is actually a byproduct of showing a character who is completely overwhelmed with regret.
@@Omnipulsarto be honest we don’t know that. I’m not trying to say that every human is good, but we can’t just say that anyone who has god like powers will become evil
I love how all of a sudden every youtuber feel a need to explain Kratos and why the old trilogy was amazing. Flash news, it always was amazing. And the character always rocked and had a lot of depth.
I think you're forgetting one particular scene in GoW2. After the fight against the last Spartan and the discovery of the destruction of Sparta by Zeus, Kratos lost his mind then the octopus monster (forgot his name) showed up, grabbed Kratos and he lost his consciousness. He then saw a vision of his wife, Lysandra (which was Gaia manipulating Kratos) telling him to let his rage consume him and have his revenge. I believe Kratos didn't go back and save his family because in his mind his wife would want him to have his revenge.
Its pretty easy to understand . He just wanted vengeance and thats all he cared for at that time. Its pretty clear with how GOW 2 builds up the end.It was a revenge saga of kratos and that was the point
This paradox of a (anti)hero character murdering scores of enemies relentlessly to reach a goal at all costs is what Yoko Taro wanted to convey in Drakengard games(specifically 1 and 3). He wanted the players to grasp the protaganists' excessive violence and question if its worth it at all in the end with the world inevitably going bonkers in each different ending. Its a bit different from what you covered about Kratos here but the similarity of the subject is kind of there for those who know of this series.
Having played Drakengard 3 myself there's also this theory I heard that as you're slaughtering your way through enemies the blood effects on screen are purposely vivid and almost want to obscure your vision to low key make the player think about the relentless killing they're administering. Also Greek era Kratos and Zero would be a delight to witness but not if you're within arm's reach of them
@@res204 Come to think of it yes, I remember something like that. The game might not be to everyone's taste, there's some serious coomer brainrot there but there is a wonderful story if you go looking for it. Sadly with how much Nier exploded I doub't we'd see another Drakengard game. Even though I hope we do. Fun fact but apparently Zero, Kaine and A2 I think are all connected in some way. It's Yoko Taro lore so it's crazy and all over the place. But it isn't too crazy when you think about it.
@@quintinjansevanvuuren9638 They have the same personality, because they're Yoko Taro's kind of women 😂 Also A2/2B & 9S are based in lore on Kainé & Nier
I'm honestly annoyed he didn't analyse Chains of Olympus and GoS. There are some pivotal moments for Kratos like the talk with Atlas in the CoO ending and how Athena ignores Kratos' genuine questions and concerns about Deimos. And yeah, CALISTO AND DEIMOS'S DEATHS.
@@ThatGuy-ky2yf Chain of Olympus had an issue, Kratos in Chain of Olympus was angry like in God of war 2, which makes no sense, since CoO is before GoW1 and in GoW1 he wasn't angry and was respectful to the gods. By Ghost of Sparta, I can see how he was annoying and angry after GoW1, since he is still haunted and he is what he wanted to destroy, the god of war, and then finally with the death of his mother and long lost brother, he had every right to be angry as hell.
@@badass6300 I think Ascension shines some light on this. He was very much a hero rather than an Anti hero in that game. His memories of killing his family were completely obscured by the Furies and he treats Orkos with very high respect despite his failure to stop the Furies imprisoning them. CoO, if I'm not mistaken, takes place years after Ascension so the memories are starting to truly take their toll on Kratos which is why he was so desperate to follow the illusion and sounds of his daughter in the underworld and the castle near Elysium and eventually abandons saving the overworld and Olympus until Elysium is threatened. He doesn't have a truly unjustified moment iirc. He respects the wishes of Helios' sister and frees Helios' before the credits too unlike GOW 3 where he is completely mentally broken and doesn't care about her dying via the death of Helios. He also rightfully retaliates against Charon who was refusing to help despite the pantheon being in crisis up above. GOW 2 had more egregious moments like killing the last Spartan without thinking about who he was fighting and not trying to reason with and brutally killing Perseus who had similar family motivations to Kratos.
@@damsen978 I'd argue that GoW3 is where he was the most angry. But yeah CoO he should have been less angry than God of War 1. Frustrated sure, but not raging and angry, disrespectful towards the gods.
Why Kratos is caring for Pandora is simple, not just because she reminds him of his daughter, but both suffered directly from the gods. By helping Pandora, Kratos also helping himself. Being the one who can refuse the status quo of the gods doing as they feel like. Even at his downfall. Kratos didnt even wanted to give the ghost of Athena the Blade of Olympus, not because it is more noble to give it to men. But simply because he lost all faith in the gods. titans too. Each one of them manipulated him and when the deed was done, discarded him away, same with the rest of humanity. That what it was all about. A man broken down by the gods so much that he will end them and their hubris, so no one will have it like he had, but alas, in the persuit of his revenge against them, he too, was indeed a reflection of them, willing to do whatever it takes.
You ain't lying, watching all the reviews of God of war 4 and seeing people say kratos finally had depth and character. I was like huh? Him and agent 47, so misunderstood
@@atanasvfx4449 I can kinda understand them saying it if they didn't play the handheld games or acension (alot of kratos more human moments are shown in those games) but even then in the trilogy kratos clearly has depth. But I'm also gonna give the benefit of recency ignorance since I imagine a lot of people who play God of war 4 never played the older games or did but don't remember the finer plot details
@@MichelangeloVA Even considering not playing the PSP games and Ascension. The original Trilogy starts and ends with one of the most emotional scenes. Krato's voice expresses sadness and depression and his actions are not blinded by revenge and angry man being angry 💢. GoW Kratos commits suicide because he can handle the nightmares that plagued his mind for so long (even though he had already achieved his vengeance). GoW 2 Kratos acts out from emotion even if that emotion is vengeance, that not a bad way to tell a good story. Krato's loses his homeland and The last Spartan dies by his own hand while still being plagued by his memories. That one scene that Kratos says "I am so sorry, my love...Can you ever forgive me?" Hits so hard. Lastly at the end of GoW 3 Kratos forgives himself after achieving his vengeance (corruption of the gods) and decides to die and gives his powers to humanity
Playing the “old games” by which I mean the the 6 Greek games, chronologically, gives you a power fantasy, one where you begin being on his side and by the end of 3 you are so intoxicated by what it means to be a god slayer that you can ignore the horrid things you do along the way. When Kratos stabs himself with the blade of Olympus at the end you’re confused as to why until you realize, how could you live with the terrible things you’ve done. You can’t. The Norse games ask you to indulge in another power fantasy, what if you had to live with your mistakes? And what if you lived long enough to repeat the same scenarios that destroyed you before, but you chose differently? I think the genius of 2018 and Ragnarok is that it eliminates your paradox and reframes the entire story without changing what made the originals so great and horrifying. Kratos gets to raise a child into a good man instead of killing an innocent, Kratos kills a god not for vengeance, but to stop vengeance, Kratos get to be a general again, not in an army of conquest, but an army to defend the good and innocent, Kratos stops being fears and becomes loved. Does he deserve it? Probably not, but a lot of us do. We all have to live with out mistakes, but few of us get to truly rise above them.
Because his depiction was mainly based on Edward Norten’s character in ‘American History X’ and they just went along with it to the degree they couldn’t make any changes with it for the fans got used to it as it is. Hence, making new changes on his shape could lead to shake the bond between fans and Kratos.
this is cufusing for a lot of players, but he don´t kill because he is "bloodlust" or "cold", he killed because he was trained to be a Spartan, weakness=death, he burns the guy because the Gods ask for sacrifice and he works for then, NOT because he "don´t care", i think there is a lot of miss conceptions about Kratos. In the first game if you watch all the cutscenes you will see that he just get realy angry a couple of times, most of the time he is sad, frustrated, depress and even calm, he is never angry for no reason or over sadistic. In God of War 2 he was Betrayed already more then one time by the Gods, with Ares and Athena getting his Brother, with Ares make him kill his Family, the Gods don´t removing his visions, and to and all Zeus broking his Rule of no War betwen Gods. And Even in God of War 2 when he is more angry than before, he try to talk out of conflict some times, and is not blind by rage most of the time and realy cares about Sparta. He just angrier when Athena dies and revels that he is the Son of Zeus, and finaly became complete of Blind Rage when Gaia betrayed him. And EVEN THEN, he try to Spare Hefestus, thing in Spare Hera, say to Hercules that they don´t should fight, don´t kill Afrodite, and don´t want Pandora to die. He was never a Maniac, and about anti-hero, yes, but to US, in context he is a demi-god greek hero, and any other one in his position would do the same. 11:33 is not that complicated if both, the ideia.
Excellent points. There has been a misinterpretation of Kratos's character for over 16 years and that public perseption has influenced Kratos's development stray from what he originally is. After finally acknowledging this issue (but not before profiting HEAVILY of it with the norse games), the devs addressed these misconceptions in the Valhalla DLC of GoW:Ragnarök, shading a new light on past events and even coming up with a completelly new take on Kratos's oath to Ares, all to make the greek games _fit better_ to their _new_ Kratos.
14:00 Actually I think that the whole point of GoW3 is to "punish" the player, I feel like the devs are screaming in our faces "you sided with him, you gave him power and guided him up until this point, now face the consecuences of your accions". And it is still in line with the plot of the greek saga, Kratos facing the consecuences of his own acctions that ultimately lead to his downfall. We are not in control anymore, we fed the monster, now the monster forces us through this mindless slaughter of his own. Another point of view would be trying to blur the line in the "the end justify the means" motiff we have seen since the first game, making the player cuestion their morality and how far they would go for their selfish goal. But that's just my opinion...
Kratos becomes more and more animal like in the Greek Saga. It is until the end of God of War 3 he sees how unsatisfying his vengeance was and the damage he’s and gave up on it.
There is no paradox. You can't side with Kratos but he's still the coolest and you're obviously gonna enjoy playing as him, this is part of the point. Some games allow you to force the main character to act out of canon for the sake of self expression while Kratos forces you to go along in his awful actions so you can keep playing the game you bought, they're both artistically common and valid
You gave the answer to your paradox in your video, this story is a greek tragedy. Even in the first two gams kratos did stuff we were not happy with, but the magic in the game for me was to feel what he feels, even if I wouldn't act the same way.
Not gonna lie, this has been a massive eye opener as someone who hasn't played the old trilogy in a very long time. Thank you for your work on this video. Keep it up ❤
To me it was the usage of poseidons slave as doorstopper in God of War 3 that gave me the "oh ... We're not the good guy are we ?". Absolutely brilliant !
At first I thought you were talking about just the ludonarrative dissonance of gow 3 but I'm glad you touched on an important and much worthy of discussion problem with the franchise as a whole, i.e, how kratos has to balance both his redemption, his goal to be a better god and satisfy the player base with his signature brutality and badassery. It's like trying to bring two similar poles of a magnet togather. And I'm sure you'll agree that this paradox still exists, has moved on even to norse gow; simply look at how Ragnarok's combat is much more brutal and flashier (which some critics will argue how it contradicts with the themes of the game where kratos is trying not to revert back to the monster. ). It's a challenging and interesting problem/paradox you have mentioned in this essay. It seems so impossible to let go of either side in the dichotomy, sacrifice any one and both kratos and the franchise suffers. I for one am not of the camp that kratos should just be a monster, be the bad guy as before but hell, I can't say goodbye to his style of combat and the general iconic brutality of the games either😅. It's so perplexing and I wonder how on earth santa monica will resolve this paradox/balance the two sides/expectations in the next game because now kratos is completely on the path of a better god, the ends have changed and the old means cannot fully justify them (again, not to say we should get rid of the brutal style combat). Santa monica definitely has a new and higher challenge before them. Thanks a lot for making this essay, this is something we need to talk a lot more about because the paradox hasn't gone anywhere and needs to be solved for a better and more balanced game(s) in the future.
Thank you so much for this comment. Here’s my take on this - I don’t think the general violence of Kratos is paradoxical. God of War’s world is a brutal terrible place where killer monsters are ready to tear you apart at any moment. We see plenty of times that regular humans (or dwarves etc.) die extremely easily. Kratos NEEDS to be a violent warrior to survive, let alone complete the insane tasks he sets out to do in the games. Even now, in the Norse era, I don’t think Kratos’ violence contradicts his ideals. He teaches Atreus to control his rage, but still uses. When a bunch of Grim or Einherjar attack, Kratos needs his strength to overcome them, and his strength is in his rage and violence lol. I don’t think it’s an issue at all imo. The paradox I believe is that in gow3 specifically, the game’s message is that he went WAY too far. That the amount of violence and it’s consequences were not justified. But at the same time, it’s still a fun game about killing things, which is still the case today. When Kratos kills Heimdall, it’s showed as a terrifying moment because Kratos lost control. He still kills violently, but he is always aware, but Heimdall ticked him off to the point of uncontrollable rage. So I think it still works. Maybe you’ll disagree.
@@MidChronicler I don't disagree with you at all, infact I'd make the same points to someone who'd argue that Ragnarok's theme and tone are contradictory (honestly i never felt how because he's killing monsters and not humans but i guess to these people the brutality, even towards monsters, is too much). But the main issue i see is that how a considerable chunk of the playerbase wants him to be the same old monster again, how much they anticipate for gow3-esque moments from him. I agree even that his general brutality is not the problem. My point is as we move further in kratos's story, presumably towards a more positive side, it might become necessary for him to decrease his more specific brutality and chaos that the players very much enjoy and seek. Or to put it in another way, the writers will have to write the next story in which his defining fits of rage feel more justified and not just entertainment and fanservice. To me this just seems difficult to see kratos snap again like he did with heimdall or his greek past because he's much more wiser and controlled now. We all love his general brutality and have no problem with it, but to some, as i said, his more violent outbursts, his monstrous side, seems to be the selling point and even the most defining attribute of his character. This is also one of the things that causes such a rift in the community, the "old gow vs new gow" type of shit. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear but I'm just thinking if the next game can satisfy its playerbase AND its new ideals and ambitions (i.e. gow 3 style violence but kratos is a redeemed and good god). I personally don't wish for such a combo because i feel it's impossible (but I'm welcome to be proven wrong santa monica) but as you rightly said, gow 3 is the most refined of the greek franchise where everything has been dialed up. So it makes players expect more of such brutality from the next game too.
@@laffycade3151 I agree with you. I believe the answer to that is moving from rage and brutality to just general epicness and scale. The reason people have an issue with Ragnarök is because the was a relative lack of epic destruction etc. even relative to 2018. Even though Kratos will never be as rageful as he was, they can balance that out with massive battles that modern hardware allows (ala Sandman fight in Spider-Man 2). Ragnarök kind of missed the mark in that regard imo which led people to believe that Kratos’ lack of brutality is the issue. They wanted to fight on top jormie and see the realms crumble etc. which would make up for Kratos trying to stop being a god killer. They definitely should make up for that in future games, especially since they’ll be ps5 native.
@@MidChronicleranother video/Tuber who's too subjected towards the superficiality of the prescriptive Modernistic Values, that has been indoctrinated as a subject towards the individual of groups' cognitive thinking (& Human Consciousness), comprehension & perception based on a Higher set of perceived standards, that gets determined in its absolute form of truth to what it should & shouldn't be as; such as the very subset of this abstraction that I've just elaborated from before & that is utilising contrived, prescriptive abstractions such as 'Morality' & the subset of these prescriptive abstractions are known as 'good & evil, right & wrong, Hero & Villain' - as well as the oversaturated term that is 'justification'... 'morality' & any synonymous that are derived from the Etymological nature that's been throughout Human History (which amplifies Modernism) are abided towards the progressive usage of forwarding 'meaning' of what a Human or Humanity should strive for in juxtaposition for what the essence of the existence of a 'Human' being should & shouldn't be as in its absolute form of truth & it's subset i.e. the determination of the Higher set of perceived standards; this further progresses throughout the Human Consciousness/Perception & the indoctrination, that being as; prescriptive abstractions that equate to that standard is 'Psychopath' or any personality disorder for that matter especially Personality within itself - then there's another prescriptive terms such as 'Humane, Humanise, subhuman, inhuman, monster' - (this also includes 'animal' even though Humans are technically animals by its prescriptive & descriptive nature of what an 'animal' is in essence, but Humans differentiate based on viewing Humanity based on the Human Consciousness & it's Cognitive parts of the brain that transpires Humans into bring higher-sentient-beings; the term 'animal' within context is just a subset of the contrived & prescriptive abstraction of what a 'Human' in essence should & shouldn't be as; these terms are used as an allegorical & paradoxical means to forward 'meaning' for Humanity, which further exemplifies generalisation & differentiation) that's an allegorical and paradoxical abstraction that goes against the very essence of what & how being a 'Human' is in its very essence of existence... the Modernistic prescribed subset of the Human Intuition, that's based off of the Human Consciousness to derive simpler 'progressive meaning' is a superficial abstraction, that is the dichotomy of 'Good' & 'Evil' - is a vague but a broad contrived spectrum, that Humans spewed upon for 'progressive meaning' that's supposed to accept of Humanity as it is based off this socially constructed dichotomy that is 'Good' & 'Evil' - which in turn blurs and convolutes the world by its illogical fallacies, that a subset of Humans have spewed into the Modernistic Ideological Dogma of an accepted & higher set of perceived standards of what it'll indoctrinate towards to, such as the concept of 'race' - 'Morality' - 'Normality' - etc. - 'right & wrong' is once again another 'subset' of forwarding, progressive meaning via any means to indoctrinate based on prescriptive means, that translate into it being descriptive by its apparent, absolute nature & the linguistic Modernism forms of indoctrination. the whole dilemma of 'Hero & Villain' is (also, once again another but MAJOR subset that's been shaped or transpired from Modernism) something that serves to give out 'meaning' as a concept, but it exemplifies the allegorical and paradoxical nature of trying to give out 'meaning' - for and against Humanity aka Human Nature or what it means to be 'Human'. it also ties into how much a group of sentient beings such as Humans can have a biased inconvenienced perspective of who to perceive, deem or determine which one is a 'Hero & Villain' based from a Ideological Dogmatic stance, such as the (everlasting) Higher set of perceived standards that gets determined in its absolute form of truth to what it should & shouldn't be ultimately & justly perceived as... so with that pointed out; all of the abstractions that I've just mentioned, fall into the measures of its superficiality regarding everything that I've just mentioned or elaborated (& not just modernism/meta-modernism) that is subjected towards to on its superficial level of presentation & the exemplification of its presence; this is a common superficial meta-modernist technique that's used in a means to transpire it's transparent/superficial determination of what it absolutely seems by justly, when that's just what it is - it's 'absolutely seems by justly' - everyone is indoctrinated to being subjected to any of these matters for being 'Human'.
@@laffycade3151if you're going by the Modernistic Abstraction that is 'ludonarrative dissonance' it still doesn't have any coherent alignment within GoW III since there's no measures of how there's any contradictions for the gameplay & narrative levels being intertwined/corresponded with one another... ludonarrative dissonance in itself is unjust because this abstraction has no proper ways within the Video Game medium of categorising as ludonarrative dissonance; the medium of Video Game's are instead an 'abstraction' - that means that the utilisation of how a game operates as a medium is directly specific & unique within the medium for video games & so it makes it intertwined by nature & that's entirely unique for video games & doesn't mean it hinders anything that you're HIGHLIGHTING & categorising as supposed issues based on the ad nauseam narrative that is 'ludonarrative dissonance' in regards to games... (P.S. the video is still arguing for 'Ludonarrative Dissonance' based on the contrived & semantic filled points that he's making in leaps of logic regarding the supposed & absolute dichotomy that are the opposite of each other & therefore have an opposite effect about what the game is trying to portray about Kratos)
YOU DEFY THE GOD OF WAR???!!!! 🐎: ???? Also i dont agree on Poseidon,he still had his "princess" tied up as a slave and dont forget what he did to Medusa is still canon. And he still admits he abused his "princess" violently even if he says he is sorry. Hades treated his wife much better. The thing with Aphrodite isnt bad,its just meaningless. She wasnt Hephaustus wife effectively,she never talked to him and had refused to even see him in centuries. The novels outright say Poseidon,Hermes etc also went with Aphrodite. Its one of her magical powers,she seduces you even if you dont want to. Its Hephaustus fault for still caring about such a person. She was his wife only on paper
I remember my uncle got me this game for my 11th birthday, and it was all downhill from there I was a fan who beat EVERY God of war game besides the phone games and the most recent god of war ragnarok due to procrastination.
Kratos is not an anti-hero. Hero is making good deeds for higher cause, anti-hero is making good deeds from egoistic cause. Villain is making evil deeds from egoistic cause, anti-villain is making evil deeds for higher cause. So Kratos is definitely not from hero branch.
Kratos is a hero by its original definition. A person posessed of supernatural ability. He is specifically a tragic hero, that is, a hero of a tragedy, wherein the outstanding individual is brought low by their own inherent flaws. A good paralell would probably be Achilles.
@egoalter1276 but author of the video used therm anti-hero. Which means he is not using classical definition. And by the classification Kratos is a villain. Protagonist also, but still a villain. And yes, "protagonist" is the way to pronounce "hero" today. So you are not wrong calling Kratos a hero, just you are using different definition, not the same author of video is using.
God of War has a lot of minor and major villains. A lot of good and bads. The best one? He's in God of War 3 and we played him... Like a *pawn* in a game he didn't even know was being played.
I've played every game in the series. Personally, I think GOW 2018 is the best one, will GOW 2 being second and GOW 3 being Third. The older games have such a different theme compared to the newer ones, but I can't help to love both
Also fun fact about Aphrodite: She already cheated on Hephestos million times, and even she did it with Ares in Greek myth! You can already tell when Kratos appears to Hephestos after... BANG! let me write them down! "Aphrodite? I knew you would return to me🥰- Kratos... 😑 Tell me, did Aphrodite concord another God of War? 😒" "That's a question you should ask your WIFE!" Kratos had a point about that!
It’s easier for kratos not knowing the people he’s killing which is why he becomes reluctant to sacrifice Pandora because he gradually starts to know her from travelling with her and from what Hephaestus says and what he does trying to protect his daughter
I don't think you are suposed to hate or side with kratos. I think that you are suposed to learn. Learn that in war, morals don't matter, oppinions don't matter. The only thing that matters is if you are on the side that survived. Since the gods forsaken Kratos, he swore war against them specially Zeus. At that point, since either side didn't waver, he'd either kill them all or eventually get killed by them, it's that simple.
“Sometimes the world doesn’t need another hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster.””Men don’t fear swords, they fear monsters, they run from them..”
In GoW 2 and 3 Kratos is 100% the villain. I mean if you listen to the lyrics of the first boss fight with the Colossus of Rodes for example, the lyrics ARE AGAINST YOU. They are begging for the Colossus to kill Kratos. That's what makes it so fun though, you are the villain, and really, there's no Hero in the series. Even in the new games there's no Hero. Kratos and Atreus kill so many people cause tons of damage in every realm they go to just to achieve their end goal of.... scattering ashes, that's it. They then kill Baldur which brings Fimbulwinter which kills most of humanity in Midgard. They then literally start Ragnarok and destroy the entirety of Asgard. And Atreus is arguably the villain because he sets out with the goal of doing all those things, he's responsible for nearly every single conflict in the entire game of Ragnarok. Because of his obsession with prophecy and wanting to get rid of Odin, he believes he's always right no matter what, and others are left behind to clean up his mess or suffer for his choices. But just because they're bad doesn't mean who they're against is good. That's the special part of God of War, there's really no good guys well, ever. The closest we got was maybe God of War 1 Kratos.
Played nearly all of the Gow games PSP included. The PSP games help alot when it comes to helping you empathize with Kratos. GOW 1 is a Kratos whose helped the Gods for 10 years fight against horrible monstrosities. Hoping for the nightmares to stop clinging to false hope that they would. Meaning he never had a chance to move on or fogive himself because the Gods would help him eventually. They didn't and he tried to kill himself. GOW 2 he tries to expand the only "family" he has left Sparda. Zeus steps in to stop him by tricking and lying to him once again with the sword. But he doesn’t just stop there also destroyers all of Sparda. Kratos journey in two is to become a Monster to the Gods. GOW 3 he has become a monster more Destructive than the Gods and its only due to his memories of being a father does he bond with Pandora and take in at the end what je becomes and frees hope to everyone by trying to kill himself because hes learned not to relay on a Gods false hope for man.
It does seem like a beautiful, full circle thing with the series: we first meet Kratos on top of a cliff, proclaiming there is no hope, and casting himself into the sea. However many years later, he sits on a throne, as the God of Hope, hoping that he can be the leader people need instead of the monster they see.
It's crazy that's how the creative creators want to understand, and then it made the soft reboots, still good and great character development, but true he will always be a monster
Yeah, I don't think that's what was really going through the devs' heads when making GOW3 of how they can write some deep, philosophical Greek tragedy. I think it was more like "how can we make this game more violent and gorey than the last one so that people don't lose interest"
I wouldnt really classify Kratos as an anti-hero, as antiheroes are basically protagonists with heroic actions but unheroic motivations. His motivations are purely revenge, AND his actions are mixed, but actually usually evil (killing bystanders) but since his motives arent against any 'good guys' but evil deities, i wouldnt call him a villian per se, or antivillian either. Moreso, he's a broken human in a greek tragedy. It's hard to really classify any of his actions as heroic when his whole story is revenge, so i'd simply call him relatable, at least as much as we can to the harsh life of a spartan that most people dont have to deal with today, and broken by circumstance, as his reactions to his environment were human. He's both shown empathy toward Pandora, and mercilessness toward innocent bystanders. While seeking revenge against Zeus, he still offered to spare Hercules and Hephaestus, and really only ended up slaying them after they attack him anyway. So further to say his actions were mixed between good and evil; just like most of us. I know it's petty semantics😅 but this doesnt describe an anti hero; just a human
I think the point of God of War 3 was that the gods were deserving of punishment for all they done but Kratos was consumed by the only thing he had left which was rage to where anything was going to be collateral damage because he could no longer think straight. He lost his humanity and and after killing Zeus he actually questions Athena about humanity hearing her message of all of Greece was now destroyed. He didn’t care about it earlier in the game so why ask now? He realizes with a now clearer mind what he’s done and his first act of good began again when he let hope be with humanity instead of being used by Athena thereby giving him free will for the first time ever. He didn’t expect to live but to try and fix what little he could. If you play God of War Ragnarök Valhalla, Tyr says these thoughts to Kratos as well. There’s more to Kratos’ actions than just one way or the other. It’s more nuanced than that.
@@MichelangeloVAThe Box only heightened the evil already inside of the Olympians. Zeus was already fearful of Kratos and the box heightened Zeus’s fear of him. The only good in the box was hope. Kratos’ gained heightened hope when he opened the box.
Kratos suffered so much that even tho he commited such atrocities, you still put yourself in his shoes and think about what he went through and how many loved ones he lost. So at the end yes it's fucked up, but understandable and that's why he's in my top 3 best fictional characters ever
Part of the reason his arc works for me is that even through his absolute lowest and most inhumane moments, Kratos never completely lets go of his capacity for good, it’s just hidden underneath a mountain of rage and grief
The old Kratos was self aware of his actions. What I don’t like about Norse Kratos is he is portrayed as never being reflective until now in Ragnarok. The man who is known for saying, “by the gods, what have I become.” He feared what he turned into, but also knew it was the path he must take. Nothing outweighs his vengeance, and much like any of us, we become blinded by rage. Of course he wouldn’t go back in time to save his family, the loss of Sparta, the death of Zeus, he had no choice. “When will it end Kratos?” “When the glory of Sparta is known throughout the land.” “The glory of Sparta.. you did this for yourself.”
I always loved the God of War games for the brutality, I paid little to no attention to the story and I just waited for the next opportunity to spill blood. But now, after looking back at the things Kratos has done, after realizing how much of a monster Kratos is, I feel... ashamed for liking it.
Kratos absolutely cared for human life. That’s the reason the exceptions are so grave. (The boat captain is a weird one, I know, but there’s arguments there for why he did what he did to him.) Edit: I'm not saying Kratos was a saint. But he cared for his men, he cared for his family, and did not go out of his way to kill civilians until the 3rd game. To say that he "didn't value human life" is simply inaccurate. He's no different than a real life Spartan in that way and it's complicated.
@@kaine.walkerthere's no case in point, where Kratos 'absolutely' cared for Human life to the extent that you're absolutely portraying Kratos to be as...
@@newhybrid101Kratos slaughtered villages of civilians for Ares. He only went against Ares cause his family was in one villiage one day. Kratos is a sympathetic character but he was evil. He cared less and less about collateral damage on his journey against Olympus.
I think and always thought that the paradox is the idea. You SHOULD feel confuaed about your actions and kratos morals. In hope to maybe see his humanity return in it's flickering embers of hope, yet you sink deep into his bloodbath of rage and taste the necter of the forbbiden fruit with him. That's what made me fall in love with the series and makes him the best character ever - his complax nature and questioning morals and actions through gameplay and cutscenes and always find myself returning to the series and learning new deep things about him and the verse. Love d the video and happy with the subjects of the conversation, keep it up!
My issue with GoW3's characterisation of kratos is that is not 100% accurate. His decend from sad boi in GoW1 to God killing machine in GoW3 is understandable, but the so called villain keeps acting like he's GoW2 kratos, that he has some shred of morals left in him. "To catch a fly from the ass of Zeus is not worth my time" "This is not between Hercules" "I've done you no wrong Hephaestus" "My blade was meant for Zeus" "Save me as you once saved me from atlas, and I'll repay you, if you wish to repay me, Tell me how can I get to the flame" Or the whole pandora situation. Or how he kept shoving Hera away and putting up with her offenses. He's not a 100% brainless monster who kills everything on sight, getting to re-question his morals after a specific event (pandora dying) is believable. But the way he keeps switching between full monster and Anti-heroism is noticeably prevalent. This is drifting from what the purpose of the video is, but just felt like bringing it up, since obviously GoW3 wanted to be the God of War game that represents what people think of God of War when it's mentioned, but on the biggest scale possible, you'd think kratos would have 0 empathy or morals, but they keep randomly poping up. They don't add the necessary layers to make us sympathise with him, they just slow down his carnage without any meaningful impact.
Other than that, banger vid. You represented perfectly why the old games are treated the way they are by current gamers/journos , it fed into the hype and became the thing it's known about, not what it actually is.
It’s true. I believe that’s an attempt to make sure Kratos is still RELATIVELY in the right. He is still KINDA reasonable, the writers try to come up with reasons for Gods’ deaths to be justified (mostly by them being pricks). But the message is still that Kratos went too far. But they couldn’t commit to that so they came up with half-measures so that the player doesn’t feel TOO terrible controlling Kratos.
Kratos was perfectly fine killing civilians in villages for Ares. He only turned against Ares when the civilians turned out to be his own family one day. And Kratos was literally warned by the villiage oracle not to kill the people in the temple and he ignored her.
That's why the new games exist, to answer the third games questions. It's about tragedy, he's becoming what he hated and fought against. It's a tale of indulgence and him losing his way like Zeus or the other gods.
Never forget why kratos skin is ash grey or ash white , to me no matter what he does ,looking down at his own skin is reason enough to do whatever he feels is necessary to greek gods
I feel like yeah, the trilogy's popularity is very much due to it being an overly brutal hack n slash and a lot of the fans are media illiterate enough that they don't care about the lines between the lines. But that doesn't make a paradox for the rest of fans who do read kratos' emotional journey. As a player I've walked with kratos. I've understood his ups and downs and more downs and further downs. I would also descend into madness and pure rage after all he's been through. And after realizing the change in myself I would also try to end what I started to look for another feeling other than anger, and then suffer and regret what I've done and look for any way of atonement, however irredeemable I may be. It's not about siding with him while rejecting him being a monster, but rather about how human he is at being relatable in his reactions and transformations
The fact that he went full anti-hero instead of becoming a hero at the end is what makes the game most compelling. Playing Gow 1 and 2, you knew Kratos was a good guy that would do the right thing in the end. Playing Gow 3, you realise that this is not the story this time. Kratos fully knows his deeds are horrendous and self serving, yet he doesn't care. The goal is killing Zeus. Idk, the way this game hit with such a great build up and such a turn of a story (you are the bad guy not the good guy) is something I never really saw in games up to that time. It just was on another level than anything I ever played before. Combine this with the most polished combat ever seen and the best cutscenes the game could offer and you have a mainstay in everyone's mind. The first 2 games (or the PSP games for that matter) are basically fairy tales compared to the brutality of this game. They knew what they were doing. The fact that they can come back from this with a character so great in the new games means this was the correct decision for this story.
I never played the old GOW Gabe’s but the new one I’m just starting and watching this video made me appreciate the new ones more. This new Kratos is peak character development
I feel like this is just a writing rule people parrot. It has no real weight. You do not in fact have to agree with or like the protagonist in order to enjoy a story. I feel like claiming that it’s a requirement is exceptionally arbitrary. You can both enjoy playing a game while recognizing the message may be antithetical. Same with books and movies. You can enjoy a story and want to see its conclusion while also wanting the protagonist to fail or realizing that the story being told is not meant to be one you side with. It feels like horror movies can straddle this line sometimes. You sometimes just want the monster to win for entertainment value. It doesn’t mean you agree with the monster. I feel like this video’s existence proves that fact. We realize kratos is at his lowest point. His “redemption” at the end and his care for pandora both stem from the same selfishness that the game is following. Idk that you are even supposed to feel he redeemed himself at the end honestly. But even so we enjoy the game and spectacle because it’s fun. The only thing that makes that paradoxical is the insistence that it shouldn’t be that way based on some arbitrary writing guidelines you have decided was law.
The loss in subtlety can also be conveniently viewed this way, as Kratos slowly leans more towards Vengeance and Rage, his humanity gradually dies. And GOW 3 is when he is fully consumed by it. No more subtlety. Its only Kill Kill Kill anything that stands (literally) between him and Zeus's death. And its so damn cathartic to play an inconsiderate monstrous bastard that at this point, fuck it I'm in, we killing them all together. You have your vengeance, I have my Catharsis
I don't believe you truly understand the story of god of war, allow me to break it down. God of war 1: A story of a broken man who wanted to be a great warrior and succeed, only to be betrayed by the same god he swore an oath to. Driven mad with the pains of his actions and failures as a father and husband, attempts to "end" himself, as he no longer believed he had anything to live for, but is denied because someone must take the throne as the new God of war. Reluctantly, Kratos accepts the throne, with his woes still plaguing him. God of war 2: A story of a destroyed man enraged by the fact that he was lied to, tricked, and betrayed by the gods, who would deny him relief from his sorrows, and forced him to become the perfect warrior they had envisioned. Upon being forced to take the throne, Kratos would lash out on the very people who he was tasked with leading, only for this to lead to his ultimate demise at the hands of Zeus, attempted to stop his reign of terror. Upon his death, Kratos would be met by the sisters of fate, who would relentlessly torture and brutalize Kratos in death. However, the sisters of fate would fail to hold Kratos, as he would escape their shackles, travel back in time to prevent his own death, and have only one goal in mind, kill the very man that killed him. Kratos would fail at this, and instead kill the only person left in the world he had left close to him, Athena, who would reveal that not only was she his half sister, but that Kratos was a child of Zeus, and by proxy also a God. God of war 3: A story of a man turned monster after years of torment and betrayal, finally broke his psyche. The revelation that Kratos was a god and a son of Zeus led Kratos to hate himself, as he was part of the same group of people that cost him everything in life. Now viewing the gods as monsters, he would accept this as part of his reality, and embrace his inter godhood, shedding the last bit of humanity he had left. At this point, though he still felt guilty for killing his own family, he no longer blamed himself, he now blamed the gods for their death. They were the ones who tricked him, they were the ones who manipulated him, they were the ones who caused him so much pain, and so they were responsible for his torment, and must be ended. He threw caution to the wind and killed nearly everything that breathed in his direction, innocent or not. Shedding his humanity caused him to no longer value others lives, and only those who would help him on his conquest would be spared. This would remain for all until he would come in contact with Pandora, who would remind him of his daughter, beginning to feel as if he could redeem himself as a father by protecting her. But at this point, his journey proved to bring the world to its breaking point, and Pandora had to be sacrificed in order for Kratos to complete his ultimate goal of killing Zeus. He would succeed, only to be faced with the destruction that he had caused, it was at this moment Athena would reappear, revealing to Kratos that the power he gained from Pandora's box was hope, and that power is what now remained of Kratos. Athena demanded the power be handed over to her, but Kratos again feeling to have nothing left to live for would sacrifice himself, releasing hope onto the world, the only thing the world had left. You're not tasked with choosing whether to side with Kratos, you're only supposed to sympathize and understand his story, but with each installment of god of war, Kratos' morals and ethics became more and more into question, until ultimately there's no justification for his actions. Kratos at the end of the trilogy is no longer asking for forgiveness, he's too far gone to be forgiven, he accepted that he's a monster and acted on that belief. The entirety of god of war 3 is a visual representation of what Kratos has become, the scene at the end with the world destroyed, that's the visual representation of Kratos' mentality being broken, and him having the power of hope, represents that hope is all he has left, him spreading hope to the world is a visual representation of Kratos giving himself hope. He kills the gods because he hates himself, and views the gods as the reason for all his problems, him killing the gods is a visual representation of him "ending" himself because he too is also a god. He killed that innocent woman not because the players wanted more brutality, he does that because its a visual representation for how little humanity Kratos has left. The reason why Pandora instills empathy back into Kratos but no woman has ever done so for his wife is because Kratos is constantly plagued by the song his daughter would play, Pandora is the only other female child seen in the trilogy, and because she is literally the physical embodiment of hope, it reminds him of his daughter, which is why he specifically chose her to spare. Many of the themes in god war 3 bleed over into the reboot, which is why Kratos in 4 and Ragnarok is so different from other iterations, because he's a completely different man. Understanding that is crucial, if you just play GoW for the fights and brutality, I don't think you played GoW properly, there's a reason for everything shown in his story. The end of 3 isn't supposed to be a redemption arc, it's visual representation of even when all is lost we still have hope, hope for something more, hope for change, hope for a better world, hope to be relieved of our pain, same for Kratos. The end signifies that Kratos shed his godhood in search for those same things, which is what he's given in the reboot, God of war 4 is his redemption arc, not 3. Hope this wasn't too long, and explained it properly.
Right know I thought the greek gow (beside being about revenge and guild) is also about self-hatred, the reason why i think like that is because his wish to forget his tragedy, since we know that he kill his own family by himself, and before that kratos is very lust for war, and its become worst when he get the blade of chaos, i don't know if that blade actually have some curse like making the user become more bloodthirsty or not, but i do think kratos are become more bloodthirsty due to excitement of him become more powerfull than before, and through out his war, he attacking whatever it is, i mean whatever he hear something or see some silhouette he will just attacking without second thought and it started to become his behavior, and this are the reason why he feel regret, of course ares is also involve in this and it's also the reason why he kill ares, but when you think about that, he might be just blaming ares for what happen to him, kind a running from his guild, i mean he always try to run or forgeting his tragedy by seeking pleasure (the mini games), but his wish for fogeting his tragedy can be interpret as self-hatred because in deep down he know this is his fault and thats the begining of him started to hate himself, in gow 2 he doesn't want to live with his family again even tho he have a chance by changing the fate, but he didn't due to his guild and self-hatred and it might be his reason by he decided to kill himself in the end of gow 3 beside for feel betray by athena.
I first noticed this paradox when a lot of self proclaimed god of war fans got defensive over the way the Norse Saga touched on Kratos’ past. How for a lot of it, it seems to paint Kratos’ time in Greece as him being this stupid angry rage monster and claim that “Kratos has always been a more complex character”. But then those same fans mock the newer games for trying to develop Kratos as a character. Like y’all, you can just say you like it when he acts like a big dumb rage monster. You don’t have to pretend you like him for any other reason.
Thank you. I was aware of these games and basically knew the storyline, but my real introduction to playing the games was Norse god of war, so I didn't quite understand why some people hated those. I absolutely love them, and love the character Arc that they took Kratos on, but I can understand why, if someone loved God of War 3 and thought it was the pinnacle, what came after may have been a real disappointment. Understanding this has helped me understand Kratos in the newer games much better.
I wish 4 was more about Kratos specifically and answering this paradox, perhaps even making the player look inward. I get there's a comic and some implications, but going from 'monster in the grips of merciless revenge' to 'dad with some anger issues and regrets' is pretty big jump. I wanna play the transition dammit.
I think you missed the mark a lil, this is just my own logical evaluation but… I think to most people, yea it’s to let your bad side out and to be all barbaric and “animalistic”, which is to an extent true but I think that’s mostly because like you said, “ultimately the player base never cared that kratos went too far and enjoyed the monster”, but what I think kratos is all about is to show that we all have a kratos inside of us, in our lowest moments we do things out of anger and selfishness and greed, we may not brutally kill people or level city’s but that’s only cuz we can’t, if most of us had the capability and resources that kratos had we’d be doing the exact same thing, but it’s real easy to throw stones from a high horse, kratos may have been a god, but he was only human after all
I love how the topic of this video was covered in God of War Ragnarok: Valhalla.
In the DLC Kratos told Mimir and Tyr that he always knew the consequenses of his actions, but in that point he wasn't going to stop until the death of Zeus.
Tyr explains this Paradox with Helios.
In Chains of Olympus Kratos saves Helios from Atlas and Persephone, resulting in Helios himself saving Kratos at the end of the game.
In GOW 3 he murdered Helios without a justified reason, they didn't hated each other, they just had opposite goals. Tyr said that Kratos always had an conflictive and complex nature, that the difference between the Young and Old Kratos are the knowledge and wisdom he gained.
At the end, Pandora showed us that even in the lowest that Kratos ever was, even being that mercyless monster, Kratos still had some humanity inside him, he always had his family in mind. That's why Kratos saw his daughter in Pandora, she was there in the journey almost from the beginning, and i would even say that Kratos empathizes with Hephaestus situation.
Kratos is more of a reactionary character than a pure monster. The gods at all turns dealt him bad hands and consistently used him as their pawn, and when he snapped back, he ended up causing a lot of collateral. Not to say he didn't do horrific things such as the shipman, his path of conquest with Sparta as a god, & Poseidon's daughter, but he is still just a broken man who was on the path of vengeance for what these people did to him that was wrong.
@@hennytopherPoseidon's daughter? I think she was Poseidon's lover
I don’t think he foresaw the consequences with Poseidon and Hades.
This another example of the craze of using the phrase "paradox" in the wrong way. Paradox does not mean performing actions in contrary to those you performed in the past. Paradox refers to the action itself being contradictory to ITSELF.
@@thescorpion575same thing in Greece
Crazy that the first words we hear from Kratos in the series is that there's no hope, and at this point he's pretty much the God of hope now
It's come full circle now
Talk about character development
Kratos smiling when Atreus saying don’t be sorry
Be Better
Shows how much character development Kratos has had and how hes different from The Kratos who killed the Gods of Olympus
Unfortunely
Not pretty much, he is. Pandora states he has the actual power of hope. And he still has it in the new games.
Kratos makes the most insane faces. When he is mad he is MAD when he is sad he is SAD
Kratos uses 100% of Face Muscles.
@@Chados. lol 😂
I particularly loved the realistic faces in the videos in GOW II
@@thescorpion575 I loved them all
But when he’s happy it’s a magnificent sight because he can truly show happiness even with what he’s been through
God Of War 1: "I support you Kratos."
God Of War 2: "Kratos, calm down."
God Of War 3: "Kratos, what the fuck have you done?"
God of War 4: "you redeem yourself Kratos I am with you"
God of War 5 Ragnarok: "Keep cooking Kratos!"
God of War 5 Ragnarok-Vallhala: "Hooray to new Norse God of War"
God of War Ascension:"Now serve us, bitch."
God of War CoO:"We need you again Kratos."
God of War GoS:"Kratos stop it."
@@Warmaster2001 he got his title back! The one he didnt want...
@@Warmaster2001the norse god of war prevents war. he is truly the god of peace. he took tyr's title
The best way I could describe it is that kratos is like a universal level example of an overly broken, beaten, and abused dog. God of war 3 is the tail end of a story about what happens when you’ve pushed the dog too far and decides to basically rip your throat out. It’s the answer to the question of what would happen if you push someone too far. We’re not exactly meant to side with kratos but mainly empathize with him to a certain extent. We can’t excuse his actions to those who didn’t deserve it but remember that when you’re that angry and at that limit emotionally, there is no reasoning or capability of rational thought, you only see red and we have all done or said some bad stuff when we get mad sometimes and these are the types of things the overall 6 game Greek story tackles. And let’s face it we all get a kick out of seeing a shitty dog owner in a movie get his or her karmic justice with the dog getting his revenge for all the abuse and god of war 3 is literally just that. We are meant to side with him for that at least but also understand that it’s not ok to take your anger on those who didn’t deserve it either and to understand just how damaging unchecked rage can be. That’s just my perspective at least. I’m stoned so take this with what you will.
@@bootiebutter what I love about the old GoW games is incredible storytelling that is hidden. There is always depths you can reach but the games trick you into thinking it’s shallow when it’s actually good and really well written. GoW3 is the question of when it’s too far? Like we get Kratos we understand him we feel bad for him. Yet we don’t agree with his actions it’s just amazing diversity in writing that makes you think “who is the right side” when the real question is “is there a right side?”
It’s so beautiful and under appreciated it’s just sad actually
@@bootiebutter Pandora is the real hero Kratos is the protagonist but he is tormented not a good person necessarily he did want to change and had the determination to do so but his environment was just not helping him
Besides Kratos’s Actions in GoW3 can be viewed as straight up heroic because he rid the world of the tyrants
Personally i see kratos as a depicton of the people who simply couldn't overcome, it doesn't mean your'e weak or that you did something necessarily wrong but being honest not everyone manages to pull through their own struggle and in a comunnity were people gravitate more often on to highly enduring and motivational characters its nice to have someone that actually shows you and tackles the other side of the spectrum. I also feel is the main reason why old kratos often faces so much backlash cause people thing that if you don't have any type of slight character growht and don't overcome the problem by the end of the story your character simply sucks, it might not be that kratos is just misunderstood but a chunk of the people that actually get the message actively reject it as no one wants to now about the people that didn't get to the finish line, it reminds me a bit to toxic posivility now that i think about it...
Im stoned to 🪨🤯😶🌫️
Butter dog, the dog with the butter on him
The truth is...Kratos _never lost me._ And these past few years made me think I was alone in that regard.
See, what Kratos does _is monstrous._ But to me, it never mattered because when you get down to it, no matter how bad Kratos was...the Gods and the Titans _were even worse._ The world was living under their despotic rule and humanity could literally do _nothing_ to stand up to them...Then, out of nowhere, this Spartan warrior rises up and _kills Ares,_ the God of War. Kratos did the impossible; showed that the unstoppable were in-fact _stoppable._ That the immortal, were in-fact _mortal._ And that humanity _had a chance._
The whole idea of "Hope" being the secret weapon against the Gods and Titans to me was the _entire theme_ of the franchise. The fact that the world was run by these despots who think they're bigger and better than everyone else, and one-man rose up to challenge them. Sure, the world is in bad shape after the Olympians died - but you have to realize that _this was the Olympians' doing._ This was their fail-safe to ensure they could never be killed, because there would be consequences if they ever were. The world still existed after the Titans were killed or imprisoned, so this was clearly a domino-effect that the gods set-up.
The point is...now that the Gods and Titans are gone, _humanity has a chance._ The world is flooded, disease run rampant, plants are dying, and there's a sky-blotting storm...But y'know what? _Humanity is going to survive._ And it's because of Kratos. By releasing Hope onto the world, Humanity now has something to live-for. They have a Hope; they have a fighting-chance. And this was the point of the franchise; the final room of Pandora's Temple, a mural on the floor depicting Men rising up _against the gods._ Described as a vision of the future; and that same mural reappears in God of War 2.
And guess what? _The World isn't destroyed._
The Norse Games have confirmed it, but the thing is, _this was set-up from as far back as the first game._ There have been hints since the beginning that the world was _bigger_ than what we saw. That the _other religions_ of the world existed, and it was clear that the Greeks _only controlled their corner of the world._ (This was teased in God of War 2, and the original idea for God of War III was that Kratos was going to kill his way through Norse and Egyptian pantheons as they tried to muscle-in on Olympus during Kratos' rampage.)
So yeah, the point is, the only section of the world that got wiped was Greece; humanity _wasn't wiped out,_ and all that was really accomplished was that there was one-less pantheon of assholes running the place.
In other words, in the short term, Kratos is a monster. In the long term, Kratos is a hero, but the positive impacts won't be seen by the Greek people for hundreds, if not thousands of years until after Kratos finally dies a final death.
@@user-bz9of6tn6l it won't take that long for the positive impact. The next generation that survived the cataclysm will have hope on their side now. Without the gods that controlled their fate for so long, the greek people can rebuild and choose how they want to live their lives without being consumed by fear.
If kratos had given up on his revenge the greek lands would have eventually consumed by fear. There wouldn't be any hope for the people at that point. So in a way you can call what kratos did resulted in a greater good.
Although it still won't change the fact that he will be considered as a monster by the Greeks for at least a few centuries.
Despite his actions, kratos is but the end result about what happens when godly manipulation becomes too cruel and one god in particular creates a monster that could kill an entire pantheon. If kratos didnt exist than 'another' kratos-type would eventually come instead, and if ares didnt make him eventually some other god would have instead. It was a story that was inevitable as it was tragic. If the gods allowed Kratos to have his memories erased or allowed him to be with his family in the afterlife this wouldn't have happened, sadly the only thing stupider than ares creating a warrior that destroy a pantheon only to have that same warrior kill you out of vengeance was to make him a god and expect him to behave all nice and such without fixing the underlying problems that plagued him and worse yet provoking his wrath further. Kratos utimately didn't care for status or power, all he really wanted was peace however the gods denied him that. Since he couldnt gain peace through morally sane means, he had to gain it in the only way he knew how: Through war. Regardless of Kratos's crimes or how neccessary to the worlds wellbeing the greek gods were, what their rule did was neither kind nor logical and since kratos had nothing to live for, he had nothing to lose. Anyone else if they are capable of being as broken and badass as kratos would have probably done the same thing as he did. Such a society that does such a thing without reservation, the destruction of the world would be suitable both as a punishment and a mercy.
It couldn't have been stated better.
The whole appeal of gow 2 and 3 is basically “man greek gods are such assholes right….wanna play a game where you can fight them and teach em a lesson ?”
It's like Tyr said; his legacy is complicated.
tyr is/was a propaganda machine. tyr is/was a liar bastard. tyr is the monster in last gow game.
@@noneedforaname640 Dude, that was Odin in disguise
The real Tyr is in Valhalla
@@noneedforaname640 did you even play the game lmao
And I made a comment based off of that in THIS VIDEO especially given its title 😭📝
@noneedforaname640 Bro did not even pretend to pay attention.
GOW 1 : broken hero
GOW 2 : antihero
GOW 3 : villain
GOW 2018: Antihero
GOW R: hero
He came full circle and surpassed himself.
He was never a hero in the original trilogy, even before he became a servant to ares he was a ruthless spartan general who razed village after village, abandoning his family in search of constant war and battle
Feels like he was an anti hero in the first game already
@@rurounijay7100 yeah but that's based on his past, what he was doing in the present was being tasked to kill Ares, who was using his powers to destroy Greece against the God's wishes. He was objectively doing the right thing.
@@sorterwoodsteel was he doing the “right thing” cause he was motivated by a pure non biased justice? Or was he tasked? Whats more, did he do it for the right reason? Or better yet, after he “did a good thing” (he slaughtered countless innocents during this journey to kill ares), he was offered the same title, and what did he do with the power? Be arguably worse than ares was. Kratos was never a hero. Not until ragnarok.
I disagree that it's a Paradox. I think that at the start of God of War 3 Kratos is just about to reach his peak Rage and blood lust and after Gaia betrays him, he is gone, but as God of War 3 progresses he slowly starts to become disgusted with what he has done. The tipping point comes after he sees Daedalus dead, hanging on the chains.
And Kratos's progression throughout the trilogy makes perfect sense, I'd say it's very accurate to human psychology and how real person would be, especially if that person had the power of Kratos.
God of War 3 let's us ride with Kratos seeing what he has been through in the previous games, we are 100% behind him at the start of God of War 3 and just like him, we slowly start to see that vengeance is not the answer by the end of the game. They don't try to redeem Kratos, they try to show the player that vengeance at all cost is absolutely wrong, it leads to monstrosities and turns you into a monster.
lmao fr, people don't understand just how much power corrupts people to do things they wouldn't think of doing had they not had that power. if you gave a irl human the same powers kratos had its a guarantee they will be burning society to the ground or at the very least use there power to destroy something important
I think the thing that really irked me in this video was him proclaiming that the ending of GoW 3 was to "get the player to empathize." Imo that's way too myopic and frankly a simple minded way to view that ending. I think regret for taking things too far is a very human emotion, we even see this in real life with some people we'd probably consider to be the most depraved in society. I guess you could argue in their case too they only show regret to garner sympathy, but I think to completely deconstruct the entire emotion of regret as a manipulative tactic (whether from a narrative standpoint or a sociological standpoint) is a level of misanthropy that I guess I have yet to reach. To put it simply, I think the ending certainly does have the player empathize with Kratos at least in some capacity, but I think that ultimately this is actually a byproduct of showing a character who is completely overwhelmed with regret.
@@Omnipulsar true
@@mad0hattr I don't know, I felt a deep understanding of why Kratos did what he did and is what he became, but not empathy.
@@Omnipulsarto be honest we don’t know that. I’m not trying to say that every human is good, but we can’t just say that anyone who has god like powers will become evil
To quote another creator that has covered GOW in almost every aspect: Kratos was always a deep character
Whoever thought otherwise is a moron, honestly. That's why i still like the greek games the most. The true depth of his saga is inside those games.
Thanks for the baller video and effort.
Hey zesty
This is actually such a well put together video. This video pretty much explains exactly why kratos will always be my favorite character in fiction
I love how all of a sudden every youtuber feel a need to explain Kratos and why the old trilogy was amazing. Flash news, it always was amazing. And the character always rocked and had a lot of depth.
This
Funnily enough I've never played any of the games but I knew this from every single clip I saw here and there over the year
My biggest gripe with the series is that Kratos didn’t use the power of the fates to save his wife, daughter, mother, brother, and even orkos.
He was blinded by rage
@@isaacduraes7685and manipulated by Gaia as seen in the scene in the fight against the Kraken.
I think you're forgetting one particular scene in GoW2. After the fight against the last Spartan and the discovery of the destruction of Sparta by Zeus, Kratos lost his mind then the octopus monster (forgot his name) showed up, grabbed Kratos and he lost his consciousness. He then saw a vision of his wife, Lysandra (which was Gaia manipulating Kratos) telling him to let his rage consume him and have his revenge. I believe Kratos didn't go back and save his family because in his mind his wife would want him to have his revenge.
Its pretty easy to understand . He just wanted vengeance and thats all he cared for at that time. Its pretty clear with how GOW 2 builds up the end.It was a revenge saga of kratos and that was the point
maybe when athena died wisdom died too that is why they were all cuckooo in gow3
This paradox of a (anti)hero character murdering scores of enemies relentlessly to reach a goal at all costs is what Yoko Taro wanted to convey in Drakengard games(specifically 1 and 3).
He wanted the players to grasp the protaganists' excessive violence and question if its worth it at all in the end with the world inevitably going bonkers in each different ending.
Its a bit different from what you covered about Kratos here but the similarity of the subject is kind of there for those who know of this series.
Having played Drakengard 3 myself there's also this theory I heard that as you're slaughtering your way through enemies the blood effects on screen are purposely vivid and almost want to obscure your vision to low key make the player think about the relentless killing they're administering. Also Greek era Kratos and Zero would be a delight to witness but not if you're within arm's reach of them
@@quintinjansevanvuuren9638 Not to mention the vivid blood stains increasingly staining Zero's white garb until you use Intoner mode.
@@res204 Come to think of it yes, I remember something like that. The game might not be to everyone's taste, there's some serious coomer brainrot there but there is a wonderful story if you go looking for it. Sadly with how much Nier exploded I doub't we'd see another Drakengard game. Even though I hope we do. Fun fact but apparently Zero, Kaine and A2 I think are all connected in some way. It's Yoko Taro lore so it's crazy and all over the place. But it isn't too crazy when you think about it.
@@quintinjansevanvuuren9638 They have the same personality, because they're Yoko Taro's kind of women 😂
Also A2/2B & 9S are based in lore on Kainé & Nier
There is no paradox, merely kratos changing
Thankfully, we get an explanation for his shift from 1 to 2 thanks to Ghost of Sparta.
I'm honestly annoyed he didn't analyse Chains of Olympus and GoS. There are some pivotal moments for Kratos like the talk with Atlas in the CoO ending and how Athena ignores Kratos' genuine questions and concerns about Deimos. And yeah, CALISTO AND DEIMOS'S DEATHS.
@@ThatGuy-ky2yf Chain of Olympus had an issue, Kratos in Chain of Olympus was angry like in God of war 2, which makes no sense, since CoO is before GoW1 and in GoW1 he wasn't angry and was respectful to the gods.
By Ghost of Sparta, I can see how he was annoying and angry after GoW1, since he is still haunted and he is what he wanted to destroy, the god of war, and then finally with the death of his mother and long lost brother, he had every right to be angry as hell.
@@badass6300 I think Ascension shines some light on this. He was very much a hero rather than an Anti hero in that game. His memories of killing his family were completely obscured by the Furies and he treats Orkos with very high respect despite his failure to stop the Furies imprisoning them.
CoO, if I'm not mistaken, takes place years after Ascension so the memories are starting to truly take their toll on Kratos which is why he was so desperate to follow the illusion and sounds of his daughter in the underworld and the castle near Elysium and eventually abandons saving the overworld and Olympus until Elysium is threatened. He doesn't have a truly unjustified moment iirc. He respects the wishes of Helios' sister and frees Helios' before the credits too unlike GOW 3 where he is completely mentally broken and doesn't care about her dying via the death of Helios. He also rightfully retaliates against Charon who was refusing to help despite the pantheon being in crisis up above.
GOW 2 had more egregious moments like killing the last Spartan without thinking about who he was fighting and not trying to reason with and brutally killing Perseus who had similar family motivations to Kratos.
@@badass6300 He's nowhere near as angry in CoO like he was in GoW2. He was exploding in GoW2.
@@damsen978 I'd argue that GoW3 is where he was the most angry.
But yeah CoO he should have been less angry than God of War 1. Frustrated sure, but not raging and angry, disrespectful towards the gods.
Why Kratos is caring for Pandora is simple, not just because she reminds him of his daughter, but both suffered directly from the gods. By helping Pandora, Kratos also helping himself. Being the one who can refuse the status quo of the gods doing as they feel like. Even at his downfall. Kratos didnt even wanted to give the ghost of Athena the Blade of Olympus, not because it is more noble to give it to men. But simply because he lost all faith in the gods. titans too. Each one of them manipulated him and when the deed was done, discarded him away, same with the rest of humanity. That what it was all about. A man broken down by the gods so much that he will end them and their hubris, so no one will have it like he had, but alas, in the persuit of his revenge against them, he too, was indeed a reflection of them, willing to do whatever it takes.
Most Misunderstood Character in the History of Gaming
You ain't lying, watching all the reviews of God of war 4 and seeing people say kratos finally had depth and character. I was like huh? Him and agent 47, so misunderstood
@@MichelangeloVA Every time I hear someone say that, for some reason 2 inputs called L3+R3 pop up in my screen 💀
Doom Slayer is also pretty misunderstood
@@atanasvfx4449 I can kinda understand them saying it if they didn't play the handheld games or acension (alot of kratos more human moments are shown in those games) but even then in the trilogy kratos clearly has depth. But I'm also gonna give the benefit of recency ignorance since I imagine a lot of people who play God of war 4 never played the older games or did but don't remember the finer plot details
@@MichelangeloVA Even considering not playing the PSP games and Ascension. The original Trilogy starts and ends with one of the most emotional scenes. Krato's voice expresses sadness and depression and his actions are not blinded by revenge and angry man being angry 💢. GoW Kratos commits suicide because he can handle the nightmares that plagued his mind for so long (even though he had already achieved his vengeance). GoW 2 Kratos acts out from emotion even if that emotion is vengeance, that not a bad way to tell a good story. Krato's loses his homeland and The last Spartan dies by his own hand while still being plagued by his memories. That one scene that Kratos says "I am so sorry, my love...Can you ever forgive me?" Hits so hard. Lastly at the end of GoW 3 Kratos forgives himself after achieving his vengeance (corruption of the gods) and decides to die and gives his powers to humanity
Playing the “old games” by which I mean the the 6 Greek games, chronologically, gives you a power fantasy, one where you begin being on his side and by the end of 3 you are so intoxicated by what it means to be a god slayer that you can ignore the horrid things you do along the way. When Kratos stabs himself with the blade of Olympus at the end you’re confused as to why until you realize, how could you live with the terrible things you’ve done. You can’t.
The Norse games ask you to indulge in another power fantasy, what if you had to live with your mistakes? And what if you lived long enough to repeat the same scenarios that destroyed you before, but you chose differently?
I think the genius of 2018 and Ragnarok is that it eliminates your paradox and reframes the entire story without changing what made the originals so great and horrifying. Kratos gets to raise a child into a good man instead of killing an innocent, Kratos kills a god not for vengeance, but to stop vengeance, Kratos get to be a general again, not in an army of conquest, but an army to defend the good and innocent, Kratos stops being fears and becomes loved.
Does he deserve it? Probably not, but a lot of us do.
We all have to live with out mistakes, but few of us get to truly rise above them.
But why he bald?
Now we’re asking the real questions
Because his depiction was mainly based on Edward Norten’s character in ‘American History X’ and they just went along with it to the degree they couldn’t make any changes with it for the fans got used to it as it is. Hence, making new changes on his shape could lead to shake the bond between fans and Kratos.
Bald = OP character
Just look Saitama, or Jiren, or Thanos, or Dr. Manhattan
@@ElPrincipeVegeta Or krillin.
All that anger stresses you out dude. Got his hair falling out .
2:13 the tune hits harder than rock
this is cufusing for a lot of players, but he don´t kill because he is "bloodlust" or "cold", he killed because he was trained to be a Spartan, weakness=death, he burns the guy because the Gods ask for sacrifice and he works for then, NOT because he "don´t care", i think there is a lot of miss conceptions about Kratos. In the first game if you watch all the cutscenes you will see that he just get realy angry a couple of times, most of the time he is sad, frustrated, depress and even calm, he is never angry for no reason or over sadistic. In God of War 2 he was Betrayed already more then one time by the Gods, with Ares and Athena getting his Brother, with Ares make him kill his Family, the Gods don´t removing his visions, and to and all Zeus broking his Rule of no War betwen Gods. And Even in God of War 2 when he is more angry than before, he try to talk out of conflict some times, and is not blind by rage most of the time and realy cares about Sparta. He just angrier when Athena dies and revels that he is the Son of Zeus, and finaly became complete of Blind Rage when Gaia betrayed him. And EVEN THEN, he try to Spare Hefestus, thing in Spare Hera, say to Hercules that they don´t should fight, don´t kill Afrodite, and don´t want Pandora to die. He was never a Maniac, and about anti-hero, yes, but to US, in context he is a demi-god greek hero, and any other one in his position would do the same. 11:33 is not that complicated if both, the ideia.
Excellent points.
There has been a misinterpretation of Kratos's character for over 16 years and that public perseption has influenced Kratos's development stray from what he originally is. After finally acknowledging this issue (but not before profiting HEAVILY of it with the norse games), the devs addressed these misconceptions in the Valhalla DLC of GoW:Ragnarök, shading a new light on past events and even coming up with a completelly new take on Kratos's oath to Ares, all to make the greek games _fit better_ to their _new_ Kratos.
This Video:
Kratos: I am just a product of my environment.
14:00 Actually I think that the whole point of GoW3 is to "punish" the player, I feel like the devs are screaming in our faces "you sided with him, you gave him power and guided him up until this point, now face the consecuences of your accions". And it is still in line with the plot of the greek saga, Kratos facing the consecuences of his own acctions that ultimately lead to his downfall. We are not in control anymore, we fed the monster, now the monster forces us through this mindless slaughter of his own.
Another point of view would be trying to blur the line in the "the end justify the means" motiff we have seen since the first game, making the player cuestion their morality and how far they would go for their selfish goal. But that's just my opinion...
Kratos becomes more and more animal like in the Greek Saga. It is until the end of God of War 3 he sees how unsatisfying his vengeance was and the damage he’s and gave up on it.
We waited weeks for this?!?!? Well worth it, another awesome 10/10 gow video by Mid man 🍻
Thank you for the support as always!
There is no paradox. You can't side with Kratos but he's still the coolest and you're obviously gonna enjoy playing as him, this is part of the point. Some games allow you to force the main character to act out of canon for the sake of self expression while Kratos forces you to go along in his awful actions so you can keep playing the game you bought, they're both artistically common and valid
Agreed. The whole ‘enjoying the game == siding morally with kratos’ thing is wild to me. That’s some CoD players wanna shoot people irl type bullshit
You gave the answer to your paradox in your video, this story is a greek tragedy. Even in the first two gams kratos did stuff we were not happy with, but the magic in the game for me was to feel what he feels, even if I wouldn't act the same way.
Not gonna lie, this has been a massive eye opener as someone who hasn't played the old trilogy in a very long time. Thank you for your work on this video. Keep it up ❤
To me it was the usage of poseidons slave as doorstopper in God of War 3 that gave me the "oh ... We're not the good guy are we ?". Absolutely brilliant !
At first I thought you were talking about just the ludonarrative dissonance of gow 3 but I'm glad you touched on an important and much worthy of discussion problem with the franchise as a whole, i.e, how kratos has to balance both his redemption, his goal to be a better god and satisfy the player base with his signature brutality and badassery. It's like trying to bring two similar poles of a magnet togather. And I'm sure you'll agree that this paradox still exists, has moved on even to norse gow; simply look at how Ragnarok's combat is much more brutal and flashier (which some critics will argue how it contradicts with the themes of the game where kratos is trying not to revert back to the monster. ). It's a challenging and interesting problem/paradox you have mentioned in this essay. It seems so impossible to let go of either side in the dichotomy, sacrifice any one and both kratos and the franchise suffers. I for one am not of the camp that kratos should just be a monster, be the bad guy as before but hell, I can't say goodbye to his style of combat and the general iconic brutality of the games either😅. It's so perplexing and I wonder how on earth santa monica will resolve this paradox/balance the two sides/expectations in the next game because now kratos is completely on the path of a better god, the ends have changed and the old means cannot fully justify them (again, not to say we should get rid of the brutal style combat). Santa monica definitely has a new and higher challenge before them. Thanks a lot for making this essay, this is something we need to talk a lot more about because the paradox hasn't gone anywhere and needs to be solved for a better and more balanced game(s) in the future.
Thank you so much for this comment. Here’s my take on this - I don’t think the general violence of Kratos is paradoxical. God of War’s world is a brutal terrible place where killer monsters are ready to tear you apart at any moment. We see plenty of times that regular humans (or dwarves etc.) die extremely easily. Kratos NEEDS to be a violent warrior to survive, let alone complete the insane tasks he sets out to do in the games.
Even now, in the Norse era, I don’t think Kratos’ violence contradicts his ideals. He teaches Atreus to control his rage, but still uses. When a bunch of Grim or Einherjar attack, Kratos needs his strength to overcome them, and his strength is in his rage and violence lol. I don’t think it’s an issue at all imo.
The paradox I believe is that in gow3 specifically, the game’s message is that he went WAY too far. That the amount of violence and it’s consequences were not justified. But at the same time, it’s still a fun game about killing things, which is still the case today.
When Kratos kills Heimdall, it’s showed as a terrifying moment because Kratos lost control. He still kills violently, but he is always aware, but Heimdall ticked him off to the point of uncontrollable rage. So I think it still works. Maybe you’ll disagree.
@@MidChronicler I don't disagree with you at all, infact I'd make the same points to someone who'd argue that Ragnarok's theme and tone are contradictory (honestly i never felt how because he's killing monsters and not humans but i guess to these people the brutality, even towards monsters, is too much). But the main issue i see is that how a considerable chunk of the playerbase wants him to be the same old monster again, how much they anticipate for gow3-esque moments from him. I agree even that his general brutality is not the problem. My point is as we move further in kratos's story, presumably towards a more positive side, it might become necessary for him to decrease his more specific brutality and chaos that the players very much enjoy and seek. Or to put it in another way, the writers will have to write the next story in which his defining fits of rage feel more justified and not just entertainment and fanservice. To me this just seems difficult to see kratos snap again like he did with heimdall or his greek past because he's much more wiser and controlled now.
We all love his general brutality and have no problem with it, but to some, as i said, his more violent outbursts, his monstrous side, seems to be the selling point and even the most defining attribute of his character. This is also one of the things that causes such a rift in the community, the "old gow vs new gow" type of shit. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear but I'm just thinking if the next game can satisfy its playerbase AND its new ideals and ambitions (i.e. gow 3 style violence but kratos is a redeemed and good god). I personally don't wish for such a combo because i feel it's impossible (but I'm welcome to be proven wrong santa monica) but as you rightly said, gow 3 is the most refined of the greek franchise where everything has been dialed up. So it makes players expect more of such brutality from the next game too.
@@laffycade3151 I agree with you. I believe the answer to that is moving from rage and brutality to just general epicness and scale. The reason people have an issue with Ragnarök is because the was a relative lack of epic destruction etc. even relative to 2018. Even though Kratos will never be as rageful as he was, they can balance that out with massive battles that modern hardware allows (ala Sandman fight in Spider-Man 2). Ragnarök kind of missed the mark in that regard imo which led people to believe that Kratos’ lack of brutality is the issue. They wanted to fight on top jormie and see the realms crumble etc. which would make up for Kratos trying to stop being a god killer. They definitely should make up for that in future games, especially since they’ll be ps5 native.
@@MidChronicleranother video/Tuber who's too subjected towards the superficiality of the prescriptive Modernistic Values, that has been indoctrinated as a subject towards the individual of groups' cognitive thinking (& Human Consciousness), comprehension & perception based on a Higher set of perceived standards, that gets determined in its absolute form of truth to what it should & shouldn't be as; such as the very subset of this abstraction that I've just elaborated from before & that is utilising contrived, prescriptive abstractions such as 'Morality' & the subset of these prescriptive abstractions are known as 'good & evil, right & wrong, Hero & Villain' - as well as the oversaturated term that is 'justification'...
'morality' & any synonymous that are derived from the Etymological nature that's been throughout Human History (which amplifies Modernism) are abided towards the progressive usage of forwarding 'meaning' of what a Human or Humanity should strive for in juxtaposition for what the essence of the existence of a 'Human' being should & shouldn't be as in its absolute form of truth & it's subset i.e. the determination of the Higher set of perceived standards; this further progresses throughout the Human Consciousness/Perception & the indoctrination, that being as; prescriptive abstractions that equate to that standard is 'Psychopath' or any personality disorder for that matter especially Personality within itself - then there's another prescriptive terms such as 'Humane, Humanise, subhuman, inhuman, monster' -
(this also includes 'animal' even though Humans are technically animals by its prescriptive & descriptive nature of what an 'animal' is in essence, but Humans differentiate based on viewing Humanity based on the Human Consciousness & it's Cognitive parts of the brain that transpires Humans into bring higher-sentient-beings; the term 'animal' within context is just a subset of the contrived & prescriptive abstraction of what a 'Human' in essence should & shouldn't be as; these terms are used as an allegorical & paradoxical means to forward 'meaning' for Humanity, which further exemplifies generalisation & differentiation)
that's an allegorical and paradoxical abstraction that goes against the very essence of what & how being a 'Human' is in its very essence of existence...
the Modernistic prescribed subset of the Human Intuition, that's based off of the Human Consciousness to derive simpler 'progressive meaning' is a superficial abstraction, that is the dichotomy of 'Good' & 'Evil' - is a vague but a broad contrived spectrum, that Humans spewed upon for 'progressive meaning' that's supposed to accept of Humanity as it is based off this socially constructed dichotomy that is 'Good' & 'Evil' - which in turn blurs and convolutes the world by its illogical fallacies, that a subset of Humans have spewed into the Modernistic Ideological Dogma of an accepted & higher set of perceived standards of what it'll indoctrinate towards to, such as the concept of 'race' - 'Morality' - 'Normality' - etc. - 'right & wrong' is once again another 'subset' of forwarding, progressive meaning via any means to indoctrinate based on prescriptive means, that translate into it being descriptive by its apparent, absolute nature & the linguistic Modernism forms of
indoctrination.
the whole dilemma of 'Hero & Villain' is (also, once again another but MAJOR subset that's been shaped or transpired from Modernism) something that serves to give out 'meaning' as a concept, but it exemplifies the allegorical and paradoxical nature of trying to give out 'meaning' - for and against Humanity aka Human Nature or what it means to be 'Human'.
it also ties into how much a group of sentient beings such as Humans can have a biased inconvenienced perspective of who to perceive, deem or determine which one is a 'Hero & Villain' based from a Ideological Dogmatic stance, such as the (everlasting) Higher set of perceived standards that gets determined in its absolute form of truth to what it should & shouldn't be ultimately & justly perceived as...
so with that pointed out; all of the abstractions that I've just mentioned, fall into the measures of its superficiality regarding everything that I've just mentioned or elaborated (& not just modernism/meta-modernism) that is subjected towards to on its superficial level of presentation & the exemplification of its presence; this is a common superficial meta-modernist technique that's used in a means to transpire it's transparent/superficial determination of what it absolutely seems by justly, when that's just what it is - it's 'absolutely seems by justly' - everyone is indoctrinated to being subjected to any of these matters for being 'Human'.
@@laffycade3151if you're going by the Modernistic Abstraction that is 'ludonarrative dissonance' it still doesn't have any coherent alignment within GoW III since there's no measures of how there's any contradictions for the gameplay & narrative levels being intertwined/corresponded with one another...
ludonarrative dissonance in itself is unjust because this abstraction has no proper ways within the Video Game medium of categorising as ludonarrative dissonance; the medium of Video Game's are instead an 'abstraction' - that means that the utilisation of how a game operates as a medium is directly specific & unique within the medium for video games & so it makes it intertwined by nature & that's entirely unique for video games & doesn't mean it hinders anything that you're HIGHLIGHTING & categorising as supposed issues based on the ad nauseam narrative that is 'ludonarrative dissonance' in regards to games...
(P.S. the video is still arguing for 'Ludonarrative Dissonance' based on the contrived & semantic filled points that he's making in leaps of logic regarding the supposed & absolute dichotomy that are the opposite of each other & therefore have an opposite effect about what the game is trying to portray about Kratos)
YOU DEFY THE GOD OF WAR???!!!!
🐎: ????
Also i dont agree on Poseidon,he still had his "princess" tied up as a slave and dont forget what he did to Medusa is still canon.
And he still admits he abused his "princess" violently even if he says he is sorry.
Hades treated his wife much better.
The thing with Aphrodite isnt bad,its just meaningless.
She wasnt Hephaustus wife effectively,she never talked to him and had refused to even see him in centuries.
The novels outright say Poseidon,Hermes etc also went with Aphrodite.
Its one of her magical powers,she seduces you even if you dont want to.
Its Hephaustus fault for still caring about such a person.
She was his wife only on paper
Her magical ability was just a belt. Really, in the mythology she uses a belt to seduce men. It's also an item in the game!
Dude called Aphrodite a 304 without calling her a 304 LOL
@@knightmer3645 The Goddess of Love has a lot of sex. Shocking I tell you
What he did to medusa was canon? Where did they say that?
I remember my uncle got me this game for my 11th birthday, and it was all downhill from there I was a fan who beat EVERY God of war game besides the phone games and the most recent god of war ragnarok due to procrastination.
Kratos is not an anti-hero. Hero is making good deeds for higher cause, anti-hero is making good deeds from egoistic cause. Villain is making evil deeds from egoistic cause, anti-villain is making evil deeds for higher cause. So Kratos is definitely not from hero branch.
Kratos is a hero by its original definition. A person posessed of supernatural ability.
He is specifically a tragic hero, that is, a hero of a tragedy, wherein the outstanding individual is brought low by their own inherent flaws. A good paralell would probably be Achilles.
@egoalter1276 but author of the video used therm anti-hero. Which means he is not using classical definition. And by the classification Kratos is a villain. Protagonist also, but still a villain. And yes, "protagonist" is the way to pronounce "hero" today. So you are not wrong calling Kratos a hero, just you are using different definition, not the same author of video is using.
Anti-villain
He’s like Butcher from The boys. Bad guy fighting worse guys. And the only way for someone to be worse then Kratos is to be the worst
That question at 18:10 made me pause, comment, and ponder for a while. This is an amazing video!!
That's an amazing video man. I've never even thought about these things when i played the game but now i love it even more
I along with many others see no paradox with Kratos' actions throughout the trilogy.
New Midgard Video
This the best game ever made🐐
“Now there’s no hope” for returning to the Kratos we once know.
It's crazy that Kratos did the least deserving person the worst lol
Elaborate?
God of War has a lot of minor and major villains.
A lot of good and bads.
The best one?
He's in God of War 3 and we played him...
Like a *pawn* in a game he didn't even know was being played.
I cannot understand how some people think that the new GOW games are better than all of the old games. It doesn't make sense to me.
It's mostly just a shallow take from people who don't look too deeply at the media they consume (game journalists)
@@salsamancer or hear me out people have a different opinion than yours
They never played the old games, they just look at the graphics and said: oh its old its bad
I've played every game in the series. Personally, I think GOW 2018 is the best one, will GOW 2 being second and GOW 3 being Third. The older games have such a different theme compared to the newer ones, but I can't help to love both
@@WetCatStudios-tm4xw well I agree on one thing, GOW2 was definitely the best one in the original series
Yeeahh GOW3 Kratos be lowkey be tweaking sometimes bruh
"To judge kratos is to judge the player" That's the point
Great video! It makes Kratos' change in the reboot all the more shocking.
“Uncompromising bastard” made me chuckle😂🤣🤣
I still believe that this series is the absolute best. Just watching Kratos grow into what he is now is amazing.
Also fun fact about Aphrodite: She already cheated on Hephestos million times, and even she did it with Ares in Greek myth!
You can already tell when Kratos appears to Hephestos after... BANG! let me write them down!
"Aphrodite? I knew you would return to me🥰- Kratos... 😑 Tell me, did Aphrodite concord another God of War? 😒"
"That's a question you should ask your WIFE!"
Kratos had a point about that!
Defo a banger video even before watching it
Goddamn, thank you sir, as always
It’s easier for kratos not knowing the people he’s killing which is why he becomes reluctant to sacrifice Pandora because he gradually starts to know her from travelling with her and from what Hephaestus says and what he does trying to protect his daughter
I don't think you are suposed to hate or side with kratos. I think that you are suposed to learn.
Learn that in war, morals don't matter, oppinions don't matter. The only thing that matters is if you are on the side that survived.
Since the gods forsaken Kratos, he swore war against them specially Zeus. At that point, since either side didn't waver, he'd either kill them all or eventually get killed by them, it's that simple.
Well Done this is a splendid video, the music, your insightful commentary all of it crisp and sublime
“Sometimes the world doesn’t need another hero. Sometimes what it needs is a monster.””Men don’t fear swords, they fear monsters, they run from them..”
In GoW 2 and 3 Kratos is 100% the villain. I mean if you listen to the lyrics of the first boss fight with the Colossus of Rodes for example, the lyrics ARE AGAINST YOU. They are begging for the Colossus to kill Kratos. That's what makes it so fun though, you are the villain, and really, there's no Hero in the series. Even in the new games there's no Hero. Kratos and Atreus kill so many people cause tons of damage in every realm they go to just to achieve their end goal of.... scattering ashes, that's it. They then kill Baldur which brings Fimbulwinter which kills most of humanity in Midgard. They then literally start Ragnarok and destroy the entirety of Asgard. And Atreus is arguably the villain because he sets out with the goal of doing all those things, he's responsible for nearly every single conflict in the entire game of Ragnarok. Because of his obsession with prophecy and wanting to get rid of Odin, he believes he's always right no matter what, and others are left behind to clean up his mess or suffer for his choices. But just because they're bad doesn't mean who they're against is good. That's the special part of God of War, there's really no good guys well, ever. The closest we got was maybe God of War 1 Kratos.
Played nearly all of the Gow games PSP included. The PSP games help alot when it comes to helping you empathize with Kratos.
GOW 1 is a Kratos whose helped the Gods for 10 years fight against horrible monstrosities. Hoping for the nightmares to stop clinging to false hope that they would. Meaning he never had a chance to move on or fogive himself because the Gods would help him eventually. They didn't and he tried to kill himself.
GOW 2 he tries to expand the only "family" he has left Sparda. Zeus steps in to stop him by tricking and lying to him once again with the sword. But he doesn’t just stop there also destroyers all of Sparda. Kratos journey in two is to become a Monster to the Gods.
GOW 3 he has become a monster more Destructive than the Gods and its only due to his memories of being a father does he bond with Pandora and take in at the end what je becomes and frees hope to everyone by trying to kill himself because hes learned not to relay on a Gods false hope for man.
It does seem like a beautiful, full circle thing with the series: we first meet Kratos on top of a cliff, proclaiming there is no hope, and casting himself into the sea. However many years later, he sits on a throne, as the God of Hope, hoping that he can be the leader people need instead of the monster they see.
It's crazy that's how the creative creators want to understand, and then it made the soft reboots, still good and great character development, but true he will always be a monster
I think the story was their to show how he could and did feel. But loss it all. Connecting the player to him.
Yeah, I don't think that's what was really going through the devs' heads when making GOW3 of how they can write some deep, philosophical Greek tragedy. I think it was more like "how can we make this game more violent and gorey than the last one so that people don't lose interest"
Here we go again with an amazing video ❤
This gonna be huge🗣️🔊🔊🔊
I wouldnt really classify Kratos as an anti-hero, as antiheroes are basically protagonists with heroic actions but unheroic motivations. His motivations are purely revenge, AND his actions are mixed, but actually usually evil (killing bystanders) but since his motives arent against any 'good guys' but evil deities, i wouldnt call him a villian per se, or antivillian either.
Moreso, he's a broken human in a greek tragedy. It's hard to really classify any of his actions as heroic when his whole story is revenge, so i'd simply call him relatable, at least as much as we can to the harsh life of a spartan that most people dont have to deal with today, and broken by circumstance, as his reactions to his environment were human. He's both shown empathy toward Pandora, and mercilessness toward innocent bystanders. While seeking revenge against Zeus, he still offered to spare Hercules and Hephaestus, and really only ended up slaying them after they attack him anyway. So further to say his actions were mixed between good and evil; just like most of us. I know it's petty semantics😅 but this doesnt describe an anti hero; just a human
I think the point of God of War 3 was that the gods were deserving of punishment for all they done but Kratos was consumed by the only thing he had left which was rage to where anything was going to be collateral damage because he could no longer think straight.
He lost his humanity and and after killing Zeus he actually questions Athena about humanity hearing her message of all of Greece was now destroyed. He didn’t care about it earlier in the game so why ask now? He realizes with a now clearer mind what he’s done and his first act of good began again when he let hope be with humanity instead of being used by Athena thereby giving him free will for the first time ever. He didn’t expect to live but to try and fix what little he could.
If you play God of War Ragnarök Valhalla, Tyr says these thoughts to Kratos as well. There’s more to Kratos’ actions than just one way or the other. It’s more nuanced than that.
Didn't God of war 3 say the gods were infected by the evils of Pandora box and thus technically weren't deserving of what happened to them.
@@MichelangeloVAThe Box only heightened the evil already inside of the Olympians. Zeus was already fearful of Kratos and the box heightened Zeus’s fear of him. The only good in the box was hope. Kratos’ gained heightened hope when he opened the box.
Kratos suffered so much that even tho he commited such atrocities, you still put yourself in his shoes and think about what he went through and how many loved ones he lost. So at the end yes it's fucked up, but understandable and that's why he's in my top 3 best fictional characters ever
Part of the reason his arc works for me is that even through his absolute lowest and most inhumane moments, Kratos never completely lets go of his capacity for good, it’s just hidden underneath a mountain of rage and grief
Bro. This is the best thing ive watched in a while
The old Kratos was self aware of his actions. What I don’t like about Norse Kratos is he is portrayed as never being reflective until now in Ragnarok. The man who is known for saying, “by the gods, what have I become.” He feared what he turned into, but also knew it was the path he must take. Nothing outweighs his vengeance, and much like any of us, we become blinded by rage.
Of course he wouldn’t go back in time to save his family, the loss of Sparta, the death of Zeus, he had no choice. “When will it end Kratos?”
“When the glory of Sparta is known throughout the land.”
“The glory of Sparta.. you did this for yourself.”
I always loved the God of War games for the brutality, I paid little to no attention to the story and I just waited for the next opportunity to spill blood. But now, after looking back at the things Kratos has done, after realizing how much of a monster Kratos is, I feel... ashamed for liking it.
Kratos absolutely cared for human life. That’s the reason the exceptions are so grave.
(The boat captain is a weird one, I know, but there’s arguments there for why he did what he did to him.)
Edit: I'm not saying Kratos was a saint. But he cared for his men, he cared for his family, and did not go out of his way to kill civilians until the 3rd game.
To say that he "didn't value human life" is simply inaccurate. He's no different than a real life Spartan in that way and it's complicated.
The boat captain had imprisoned women
@@newhybrid101 I thought it was because he essentially left his crew to die moments before being eaten and was a coward.
@@kaine.walkerthere's no case in point, where Kratos 'absolutely' cared for Human life to the extent that you're absolutely portraying Kratos to be as...
@@newhybrid101as if Kratos even knew nor cared...
@@newhybrid101Kratos slaughtered villages of civilians for Ares. He only went against Ares cause his family was in one villiage one day. Kratos is a sympathetic character but he was evil. He cared less and less about collateral damage on his journey against Olympus.
I think and always thought that the paradox is the idea. You SHOULD feel confuaed about your actions and kratos morals. In hope to maybe see his humanity return in it's flickering embers of hope, yet you sink deep into his bloodbath of rage and taste the necter of the forbbiden fruit with him. That's what made me fall in love with the series and makes him the best character ever - his complax nature and questioning morals and actions through gameplay and cutscenes and always find myself returning to the series and learning new deep things about him and the verse. Love d the video and happy with the subjects of the conversation, keep it up!
My issue with GoW3's characterisation of kratos is that is not 100% accurate.
His decend from sad boi in GoW1 to God killing machine in GoW3 is understandable, but the so called villain keeps acting like he's GoW2 kratos, that he has some shred of morals left in him.
"To catch a fly from the ass of Zeus is not worth my time"
"This is not between Hercules"
"I've done you no wrong Hephaestus"
"My blade was meant for Zeus"
"Save me as you once saved me from atlas, and I'll repay you, if you wish to repay me, Tell me how can I get to the flame"
Or the whole pandora situation.
Or how he kept shoving Hera away and putting up with her offenses.
He's not a 100% brainless monster who kills everything on sight, getting to re-question his morals after a specific event (pandora dying) is believable.
But the way he keeps switching between full monster and Anti-heroism is noticeably prevalent.
This is drifting from what the purpose of the video is, but just felt like bringing it up, since obviously GoW3 wanted to be the God of War game that represents what people think of God of War when it's mentioned, but on the biggest scale possible, you'd think kratos would have 0 empathy or morals, but they keep randomly poping up.
They don't add the necessary layers to make us sympathise with him, they just slow down his carnage without any meaningful impact.
Other than that, banger vid.
You represented perfectly why the old games are treated the way they are by current gamers/journos , it fed into the hype and became the thing it's known about, not what it actually is.
It’s true. I believe that’s an attempt to make sure Kratos is still RELATIVELY in the right. He is still KINDA reasonable, the writers try to come up with reasons for Gods’ deaths to be justified (mostly by them being pricks). But the message is still that Kratos went too far. But they couldn’t commit to that so they came up with half-measures so that the player doesn’t feel TOO terrible controlling Kratos.
can't see any evil kratos nor a monster, all i saw was a monster Ares, everything happened because of him.
Kratos was perfectly fine killing civilians in villages for Ares. He only turned against Ares when the civilians turned out to be his own family one day.
And Kratos was literally warned by the villiage oracle not to kill the people in the temple and he ignored her.
That's why the new games exist, to answer the third games questions. It's about tragedy, he's becoming what he hated and fought against.
It's a tale of indulgence and him losing his way like Zeus or the other gods.
8:40 he tried to kill him first tho, Kratos retaliated in self-defense
Never forget why kratos skin is ash grey or ash white , to me no matter what he does ,looking down at his own skin is reason enough to do whatever he feels is necessary to greek gods
I feel like yeah, the trilogy's popularity is very much due to it being an overly brutal hack n slash and a lot of the fans are media illiterate enough that they don't care about the lines between the lines. But that doesn't make a paradox for the rest of fans who do read kratos' emotional journey. As a player I've walked with kratos. I've understood his ups and downs and more downs and further downs. I would also descend into madness and pure rage after all he's been through. And after realizing the change in myself I would also try to end what I started to look for another feeling other than anger, and then suffer and regret what I've done and look for any way of atonement, however irredeemable I may be. It's not about siding with him while rejecting him being a monster, but rather about how human he is at being relatable in his reactions and transformations
Those beginning games would be the game for me if they had a camera angle like they did in the last 2 games
"Juxtaposed by his humanity [in God of War 1]"
GOW1 Kratos: Kills the crew of the Hydra ships for health and the Captain just because he can
The fact that he went full anti-hero instead of becoming a hero at the end is what makes the game most compelling.
Playing Gow 1 and 2, you knew Kratos was a good guy that would do the right thing in the end. Playing Gow 3, you realise that this is not the story this time. Kratos fully knows his deeds are horrendous and self serving, yet he doesn't care. The goal is killing Zeus.
Idk, the way this game hit with such a great build up and such a turn of a story (you are the bad guy not the good guy) is something I never really saw in games up to that time. It just was on another level than anything I ever played before.
Combine this with the most polished combat ever seen and the best cutscenes the game could offer and you have a mainstay in everyone's mind. The first 2 games (or the PSP games for that matter) are basically fairy tales compared to the brutality of this game. They knew what they were doing.
The fact that they can come back from this with a character so great in the new games means this was the correct decision for this story.
I never played the old GOW Gabe’s but the new one I’m just starting and watching this video made me appreciate the new ones more. This new Kratos is peak character development
I feel like this is just a writing rule people parrot. It has no real weight. You do not in fact have to agree with or like the protagonist in order to enjoy a story. I feel like claiming that it’s a requirement is exceptionally arbitrary. You can both enjoy playing a game while recognizing the message may be antithetical. Same with books and movies. You can enjoy a story and want to see its conclusion while also wanting the protagonist to fail or realizing that the story being told is not meant to be one you side with. It feels like horror movies can straddle this line sometimes. You sometimes just want the monster to win for entertainment value. It doesn’t mean you agree with the monster.
I feel like this video’s existence proves that fact. We realize kratos is at his lowest point. His “redemption” at the end and his care for pandora both stem from the same selfishness that the game is following. Idk that you are even supposed to feel he redeemed himself at the end honestly. But even so we enjoy the game and spectacle because it’s fun. The only thing that makes that paradoxical is the insistence that it shouldn’t be that way based on some arbitrary writing guidelines you have decided was law.
God of War 3 is an absolute MASTERPIECE that far outperforms EVERY SINGLE GAME IN ANY GOD OF WAR GAME.
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE
3:50 "One soul destroying moment near the end"
You just KNOW what they are talking about, and it's hilarious
And then god of war 4 came and was AMAZING
The loss in subtlety can also be conveniently viewed this way, as Kratos slowly leans more towards Vengeance and Rage, his humanity gradually dies. And GOW 3 is when he is fully consumed by it. No more subtlety. Its only Kill Kill Kill anything that stands (literally) between him and Zeus's death. And its so damn cathartic to play an inconsiderate monstrous bastard that at this point, fuck it I'm in, we killing them all together. You have your vengeance, I have my Catharsis
Basically the game is trying to make us choose between bad (Kratos) and badder (the gods).
I love how layered Kratos whole personality is.
wow ive never seen a youtube video open with a little clip of something and then do a VCR pause, following a young dude saying "THIS is the..."
I don't believe you truly understand the story of god of war, allow me to break it down.
God of war 1: A story of a broken man who wanted to be a great warrior and succeed, only to be betrayed by the same god he swore an oath to. Driven mad with the pains of his actions and failures as a father and husband, attempts to "end" himself, as he no longer believed he had anything to live for, but is denied because someone must take the throne as the new God of war. Reluctantly, Kratos accepts the throne, with his woes still plaguing him.
God of war 2: A story of a destroyed man enraged by the fact that he was lied to, tricked, and betrayed by the gods, who would deny him relief from his sorrows, and forced him to become the perfect warrior they had envisioned. Upon being forced to take the throne, Kratos would lash out on the very people who he was tasked with leading, only for this to lead to his ultimate demise at the hands of Zeus, attempted to stop his reign of terror. Upon his death, Kratos would be met by the sisters of fate, who would relentlessly torture and brutalize Kratos in death. However, the sisters of fate would fail to hold Kratos, as he would escape their shackles, travel back in time to prevent his own death, and have only one goal in mind, kill the very man that killed him. Kratos would fail at this, and instead kill the only person left in the world he had left close to him, Athena, who would reveal that not only was she his half sister, but that Kratos was a child of Zeus, and by proxy also a God.
God of war 3: A story of a man turned monster after years of torment and betrayal, finally broke his psyche. The revelation that Kratos was a god and a son of Zeus led Kratos to hate himself, as he was part of the same group of people that cost him everything in life. Now viewing the gods as monsters, he would accept this as part of his reality, and embrace his inter godhood, shedding the last bit of humanity he had left. At this point, though he still felt guilty for killing his own family, he no longer blamed himself, he now blamed the gods for their death. They were the ones who tricked him, they were the ones who manipulated him, they were the ones who caused him so much pain, and so they were responsible for his torment, and must be ended. He threw caution to the wind and killed nearly everything that breathed in his direction, innocent or not. Shedding his humanity caused him to no longer value others lives, and only those who would help him on his conquest would be spared. This would remain for all until he would come in contact with Pandora, who would remind him of his daughter, beginning to feel as if he could redeem himself as a father by protecting her. But at this point, his journey proved to bring the world to its breaking point, and Pandora had to be sacrificed in order for Kratos to complete his ultimate goal of killing Zeus. He would succeed, only to be faced with the destruction that he had caused, it was at this moment Athena would reappear, revealing to Kratos that the power he gained from Pandora's box was hope, and that power is what now remained of Kratos. Athena demanded the power be handed over to her, but Kratos again feeling to have nothing left to live for would sacrifice himself, releasing hope onto the world, the only thing the world had left.
You're not tasked with choosing whether to side with Kratos, you're only supposed to sympathize and understand his story, but with each installment of god of war, Kratos' morals and ethics became more and more into question, until ultimately there's no justification for his actions. Kratos at the end of the trilogy is no longer asking for forgiveness, he's too far gone to be forgiven, he accepted that he's a monster and acted on that belief.
The entirety of god of war 3 is a visual representation of what Kratos has become, the scene at the end with the world destroyed, that's the visual representation of Kratos' mentality being broken, and him having the power of hope, represents that hope is all he has left, him spreading hope to the world is a visual representation of Kratos giving himself hope. He kills the gods because he hates himself, and views the gods as the reason for all his problems, him killing the gods is a visual representation of him "ending" himself because he too is also a god. He killed that innocent woman not because the players wanted more brutality, he does that because its a visual representation for how little humanity Kratos has left. The reason why Pandora instills empathy back into Kratos but no woman has ever done so for his wife is because Kratos is constantly plagued by the song his daughter would play, Pandora is the only other female child seen in the trilogy, and because she is literally the physical embodiment of hope, it reminds him of his daughter, which is why he specifically chose her to spare.
Many of the themes in god war 3 bleed over into the reboot, which is why Kratos in 4 and Ragnarok is so different from other iterations, because he's a completely different man. Understanding that is crucial, if you just play GoW for the fights and brutality, I don't think you played GoW properly, there's a reason for everything shown in his story. The end of 3 isn't supposed to be a redemption arc, it's visual representation of even when all is lost we still have hope, hope for something more, hope for change, hope for a better world, hope to be relieved of our pain, same for Kratos. The end signifies that Kratos shed his godhood in search for those same things, which is what he's given in the reboot, God of war 4 is his redemption arc, not 3.
Hope this wasn't too long, and explained it properly.
This video made me see a whole new set of what he is
All your complaints can be perfectly applied, 1 to 1, to The Last of Us 2.
Why do you missed 4 greek games ?!
Why you not know grammar ?!
Maybe it's the level of torture that Kratos Endured being to such a point that almost none wouldn't have gone off the deep end
2:29 THANK YOU
finaly someone sayed it
My favorite thing about this is that it doesn't even reference the newer GOW games, the Trilogy is all we ever needed
Kratos has also been betrayed over and over again. I think Kratos is cynical and apathetic at the point of GOW3.
Right know I thought the greek gow (beside being about revenge and guild) is also about self-hatred, the reason why i think like that is because his wish to forget his tragedy, since we know that he kill his own family by himself, and before that kratos is very lust for war, and its become worst when he get the blade of chaos, i don't know if that blade actually have some curse like making the user become more bloodthirsty or not, but i do think kratos are become more bloodthirsty due to excitement of him become more powerfull than before, and through out his war, he attacking whatever it is, i mean whatever he hear something or see some silhouette he will just attacking without second thought and it started to become his behavior, and this are the reason why he feel regret, of course ares is also involve in this and it's also the reason why he kill ares, but when you think about that, he might be just blaming ares for what happen to him, kind a running from his guild, i mean he always try to run or forgeting his tragedy by seeking pleasure (the mini games), but his wish for fogeting his tragedy can be interpret as self-hatred because in deep down he know this is his fault and thats the begining of him started to hate himself, in gow 2 he doesn't want to live with his family again even tho he have a chance by changing the fate, but he didn't due to his guild and self-hatred and it might be his reason by he decided to kill himself in the end of gow 3 beside for feel betray by athena.
I first noticed this paradox when a lot of self proclaimed god of war fans got defensive over the way the Norse Saga touched on Kratos’ past. How for a lot of it, it seems to paint Kratos’ time in Greece as him being this stupid angry rage monster and claim that “Kratos has always been a more complex character”. But then those same fans mock the newer games for trying to develop Kratos as a character. Like y’all, you can just say you like it when he acts like a big dumb rage monster. You don’t have to pretend you like him for any other reason.
Thank you. I was aware of these games and basically knew the storyline, but my real introduction to playing the games was Norse god of war, so I didn't quite understand why some people hated those. I absolutely love them, and love the character Arc that they took Kratos on, but I can understand why, if someone loved God of War 3 and thought it was the pinnacle, what came after may have been a real disappointment. Understanding this has helped me understand Kratos in the newer games much better.
I wish 4 was more about Kratos specifically and answering this paradox, perhaps even making the player look inward. I get there's a comic and some implications, but going from 'monster in the grips of merciless revenge' to 'dad with some anger issues and regrets' is pretty big jump. I wanna play the transition dammit.
Kratos truly becomes hero in Ragnarok and future gow games
Kratos is not an anti-hero. He's a straight up villain protagonist. And I am here for it.
I think you missed the mark a lil, this is just my own logical evaluation but… I think to most people, yea it’s to let your bad side out and to be all barbaric and “animalistic”, which is to an extent true but I think that’s mostly because like you said, “ultimately the player base never cared that kratos went too far and enjoyed the monster”, but what I think kratos is all about is to show that we all have a kratos inside of us, in our lowest moments we do things out of anger and selfishness and greed, we may not brutally kill people or level city’s but that’s only cuz we can’t, if most of us had the capability and resources that kratos had we’d be doing the exact same thing, but it’s real easy to throw stones from a high horse, kratos may have been a god, but he was only
human after all