Me accident clicking on this video: “who is this guy?! How did I even get here?” Me 15 minutes in with a piece of paper:” Thank God I found this page. Is it destiny?.”
What I want from grim dark is the deepest darkest pits of despair and madness that the human mind can create. I want it to go into horrifying detail on every page about the setting wether it be a run down shack with nails rusted and metal doors dusting apart with the constant fear of disease, and/or the setting of total war, barbed wire sticking into and out of skin pulling away the form of what we thought was humanity, blades being plunged into already open wounds, a soldier standing in the middle of madness, his sane mind lost to a lingering past weeping out for his loved ones, artillery than bursting him into a red mist and his bone flying into another soldiers throat. That might just be me, I’m in love with gory detail, I want the setting to feel like its entire own character separate but constantly changing and affecting the main character.
@@slowlyred2082 it changed my life. I think i was like 18 and still reading dean koontz books and john Grisham novels... its what my mom read dont judge me. An older cousin introduced me to the series and gave me the first 4 books, had the rest torrented in a week. Its a fucking masterpiece.
I actually got into grimdark from reading the manga Berserk. It was so shocking, mature and philosophically rich compared to any other fantasy I’ve ever read that I fell in love with the genre. After reading Berserk, I moved onto Conan, Elric and Kane. Then Mistborn, Prince of Thorns, Black Company and Night Angel. Now I’m reading The Poppy War, Second Apocalypse, Steel Remains and First Law. I’m forever grateful to Berserk for showing me how dark and deep fantasy can be.
Indeed. That is... kinda the level of darkness I would be interested in. A world full of rape, torture, murder, horrible desperation, hopelessness and suffering. A story that is not afraid to go to any length, where infants are impaled and put up to hammer in fear and submission into the people. However my memory of Guts, is that he was pretty much a good guy trapped in a really bad world. That is fine, I like to read about a rather good guy trying to surf in a stormy sea. However, what I have gotten the slightest taste of but never really gotten to bite properly into, is a main character who makes his or her own morals. Not going out of their way to help others. Willing to exterminate entire villages or towns, however if you fu**ing dare touch his lovers, his family, his friends, his people, hell even his slaves if it so be. Well prepare for hells fury. He would not need to be cruel or could even be nice to most people. However if someone has made themselves his enemy there should no longer be any blows to low. Make his enemies watch their children suffer and die due to their actions. A woman tries to attack him or his companion? Murder most cruel. Or perhaps she is of high standing. Looking down on others? Perhaps corrective ra** would be in order, as she will find being sullied and humiliated the worst of punishments. If he has to, have him willing to sacrifice random children, even just to drag out the time it takes before a disease takes away someone he cares about. Have him preform downright horrific experiments on people in a quest for knowlage and understanding of body and soul. A world where the strong eat the weak and might makes right. And no kind act goes unpunished. I would love to see the characters try to do good from time to time. Sometimes it may work out and bring benefits. Other times it may lead to disaster.
Enjoyed Beyond Redemption! After ASOIAF, I started audiobooks with the Faithful and the Fallen and really enjoyed it. My all time favorite are the first law books. Read them and listened to them all multiple times. Hard to find something now. King Killer Chronicles was good if that’s Grimdark
What a fantastic fucking list man. Somebody who really understands the genre and includes lesser known works as well as options for people around the edges of the genre. Tons of gold here cant wait to dig in. Will probably start with Traitors Blade and go darker from there. Prince of Thornes is one of the greatest books there is imo and Mark Lawrence is so talented its not even funny.
Dude I'm so happy I stumbled upon this video! I've been reading The Prince of Nothing series religiously the past 2 weeks! It's been so long since I really connected with novels and this is IT. Awesome to see someone recommend grimdark works in this way, explaining what and why makes them more or less violent, disturbing and what kind of reading style it is. I've skimmed through many forums where people just say "x is dark", but there are so many ways something can be dark and disturbing, not to mention just how subjective difficult subject matter is to individual readers. This video truly helped understand what these stories really are, helped me make some decisions and order some damn books and start reading! Thank you for making this!
Just found your channel and glad I did. Glen Cook's Black Company is, I believe, way underrated. You can see the influence he has had on grim dark that follows. Thanks for the video, although I'm a bit late to it.
You sold me on the Prince of Nothing series. I had the first one at one point, as well as Locke Lamora, the Steel Remains etc but never got to reading them before losing everything in a house fire. I'm rebuilding my book collection, so far I've only re-purchased first law and broken empire but this video gave me alot to put on my list. We have similar taste in books so I trust these recommendations. Thanks!
I can see how much you love grimdark. Thank you for delving into each book and explaining the plot and what is so great about each one. The past two channels I went to looking for book recommendations just suggested books without really talking about why the books are so great. I subscribed to your channel right away because you kept me watching from beginning to end. Looking forward to more! I started a spreadsheet of grimdark books to check out, so THANK YOU!
I read a lot of high fantasy, and normally purchase audio books while at work. I didn't know what Prince of Thorns was going to be, I had never heard of it, just bought it and pushed play. Immediately knew I had found something different and loved it, I've been looking for more grimdark to fill the void since I finished Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire trilogy.
@@slowlyred2082 Same, probably also the series with the most laugh-out-loud moments for me - despite how fucked up everything in the world is. The dysfunctionality of the relationship between Bedeckt, Stehlen, and Wichtig is just too good. Their solo chapters that set up the story in Mirror's Truth are truly hilarious.
Hell yeah this is awesome! I’ve been wanting to read more grimdark material. I’m currently working my way through Last Argument of Kings and the First Law trilogy as a whole is top notch.
I'm currently in the middle of Malazan series, and every time you start talking about Bakker's The Second Apocalypse, it makes me want to set my book down and do a Bakker reread instead.
Dude i just fpund ypur channel and mad respect. I follow alot of top fanatasy booktubers but they mostly talk about the most talked books and famous books and authors . You are more my taste when it comes to reading and hope ypur channel grows . Plus i got to give mad respect to the beard man
This was excellent! I loved the categories names. Grimheart! Hahaha! I'm really enjoying Before They are Hanged right now. I think I need more grim-dark in my life. Thanks to you, I now have a great guide to refer to.
Man I read everyone of those books, and listened to them all!!! They are soooo good, great character archs, back stories, on and on. John Gwynn has a series called the faithful and the fallen. The first book is Malice, it starts slow, but OMG it is amazing. 4 books, then he has 3 more that take place 100 years after in the same world
Thanks for taking the time to do this video. I'm not an avid reader, but I wanted to see what Grimdark is about and picked up The Blade Itself after seeing some recommendations. Going to make note of these, especially the first-person books.
Mannnnn! Now I have to move the Prince of Nothing higher up on the list. haha. I did notice you replaced the Broken Empire books on your shelf with The Prince of Nothing trilogy so I had a feeling it must be good. Fantastic recommendations Mark, I will be checking out a few of these this year.
Your grandpa theories were intelligent, insightful, and compelling. I definitely agree with you in regard to the lies of luck Lamora. My reason being in order for something to be Grimm dark, the world must seem like a hopeless place full of despair. And not getting any better. That doesn’t mean that characters don’t have moments of happiness. However, the world is just not a good place.I think that Grimm dark is about people trying to navigate through hopeless world filled with despair.
That is the best piece of information about the grimdark subgenre I ever came across. I have an ambigous feeling about the genre. For one I think there are some really awesome grimdark books which deserves way more attention and I would love if more people would dive into that genre. On the other hand I know a lot of people who would be brought down by such dark and bleak stuff. Even watching News makes them depressive. Those people should better stay away from grimdark novels. I myself can get quite some fun out of dark stories, heck I sometimes listen to brutal metal to liften my mood (it is more likely that I get depressions from german schlager music which is supposed to bring you some fun). Edit: I have a theory that I need some dark stories and dark music to set my dark side at peace. To still the hunger of the monster within me. That kind of enables me to disregard my dark side for the rest of my daily life.
I enjoy Grimdark because it can be extremely emotional for me. In real life I tend to be the tough one so when I lose myself in a book I want the full spectrum. I cry by the end of most of the Grimdark books I read haha
New to grim dark. I’ve loved fantasy a long time and I’ve recently enjoyed horror. Grim dark may be the perfect place for me. Currently reading shadow of the gods. Maybe that’s grimdark. Great video!
Thanks for this man im part way through the first law world and this helped me realize the book im working on is in the grimheart category, real nice to get into the best works that aimed for the same kinda tone before me
Great video. I have been wanting to try grim dark and wasn't sure where to start. I have heard many recommend First Law and Black Company. That sounds like the perfect starting point for me. This is a great breakdown for me to sample.
You had me at "Michael Moorcock on steroids." 😂For real, though, I'm sharing this video with my mom, who introduced my to Michael Moorcock when I was either a teenager or maybe it was my early 20's. She influenced by reading a LOT, introducing me to Tolkien, Lovecraft, Moorcock, Dan Simmons, C.S. Friedman, and many others. Pretty sure she's gonna get a kick out of your suggestions. Also, I just found you this evening and am subscribing now! Can't wait to watch more of your videos.
Actually no. I can't. I'm in the middle or Obsidian heart, Manifest delusions, Jade war, ash and sand and the five warrior angels. Plus I'm doing malazan next year as a read along. It's gonna have to wait haha
As soon as you mentioned your Grimheart definition, I immediately thought of the Gentleman Bastard series. Was glad to see you mention it, even though it wasn't your thing. It is true about it having a great insight into the friendship between two of the characters in the books.
Yeah. I really tried to bring something together that encompasses more than just my views/opinions. And gentlemen bastards is certainly tried and true, for most
Just found your channel and I love it... I am super new to fantasy at 44 coming from 30+ years of horror and you have set me on a wallet emptying path of bliss... By the Gods thank you... What I've read this year has made me a grim dark fan
Awesome, well welcome to the dastardly club 😉 Grimdark definitely brought me over to fantasy from horror and sci fi. Been loving all the madness ever since.
The bad thing about reading Bakker is that afterward all the authors seem inferior. I had to turn to classic authors like Dostoyevsky to be able to find readings that are at that literary level, because in the fantasy genre there is nothing that comes close to it.
Thanks for the fantastic recommendations! I finished the Broken Empire series and loved it. The First Law trilogy, colossal masterpiece. I bought the Manifest Delusions book and and the first prince of nothing book, Incredibly excited 🤘🧟♂️
Thank you for your recs man. I'm currently creating a fantasy world of myself with lots of dark themes about constant war and tons of dark themes, but do want to compliment it with what you call Grimheart.
A great Grimheart series would be Peter V. Brett's "Demon Cycle." It's not perfect, but it is a fun ride. If you like Grimheart and 'anime' like inspiration, then you will love it.
There recently was a stream with Peter V. Brett and Steven Erikson as well as some other authors, but I think it was either Brett or Erikson who brought the term 'Grimhope' up for books like Demon Cycle, which I found to be rather fitting.
@@pau5781 Don't know about "Pushing an Agenda". He didn't paint his "Muslim" stand-ins and being 100% evil and the "Christian" stand-ins committed rape of one of the main characters.
As a fellow grimdark fan, I also find it to be such a nebulous genre to explain and define so this breakdown was really helpful! Hurts me to hear my baby Locke didn't work for you, but I definitely agree that it's a great rec for Grimheart :) If you want a series that very overtly combines Lovecraftian horror and grimdark I highly recommend Gunmetal Gods by Zamil Akhtar! It takes place in the middle east and centers around a holy war where the gods mayyy not be as far away as people think 👀
to me my first grim dark was thomas covenant, annihilistic worlds , great phrase for grim dark black company was great...your centered great presentation...
I just started reading grim-dark, and finished "The Barrow" by Mark Smylie. Now, I can’t seem to find anything that even comes close. which brings me here, hoping to hear something that sounds like it. I also read "The Steel Remains" by Richard Morgan, which was good but not "The Barrow" good. I started reading "The Black Company," but as you mentioned, it's fast, choppy pace is a bit too much for me.
Thanks for this video! I’m so excited to add a couple of these books to my TBR for 2021. Currently working my way through Broken Empire then sounds like I’ll jump into some Morgan and Baker now after your recommendations in this video.
@@slowlyred2082if you decide to give it a try, I'm Michele Dionne over there. Just pick want to read, currently reading or read by book (eg The Way of Kings, The Blade Itself, etc.). I enjoy it alot.
This guide is missing The Vagrant Trilogy by Peter Newman, other than that, pure awesome, youve read the best stuff ive read & more & you are passionate abt it in a great way. Wish knew ppl like you irl to nerd out.
i got broken empire off your sug, i actually found you through loving between two fires... id be lying if i said i was SUPER IMMERSED IN BOOKS ive more dived in this year so im diving in. thanks for your content! grim/dark/satanic (oooh spooky) or devilish or demonic/horror/fantasy etc seems my realm love anything along those lines.
@@slowlyred2082 def i studied some theologies for awhile once my dad passed (without getting too deep) and the "darker/oooh how dare you" ones always made the most sense - so i always love seeing how authors see them as well as just using that dark/uneasy (for seemingly everyone but me around me) atmosphere as i read lol Edit* its... Awkwardly comforting? Like a unwelcoming world of my own lol
@@slowlyred2082 you are not wrong my friend. music (primarily darker in content) was always my first love and older i get there is a piece that from there bled into all other media - as i got out of the "school: fuck reading, i do it enough" age LOL. Oddly even now on a personal journey reading theologies I - somewhat humorously to my friends - keep my Satanic/Pagan/etc type stuff with my Bibles/Qurans/etc. - Why not? I keep my horror books together, my wrestling books together, games, etc yada, why not theologies? Even if they probably war on my bookshelf LOL.
First time watching you bro, I loved your video, you are very knowledgeable, and I can tell you truly love doing this!! I loved Abercrombies books!! My favorite! John Gwynn’s “Faithful and the fallen” is amazing series! Nicholas Eames “ kings of the wyld” was great too!! Loved broken empire, but I’m really not the 3rd person, multiple character points of view like Abercrombie, GRR, Gwynn. Thanks brother looking forward to more recommendations
It’s awesome that you took a sub genre and handily split it up into half a dozen other sub genres?! Awesome, the Grimheart especially I would add Malazan to “The Deep End” Thanks for several great new recommendations!
Yes!! I have been reading grim dark, fantasy, philosophy books, I’m a history teacher so you can imagine the things I’ve read… but Malazahn is still kicking my ass. I started the first book, and have not been able to make myself continue reading it like I want. I’ve read or listened to 10 other books since that one. I know it takes a few books to grasp Thst series, but I’m struggling to find a character I really like and the entire “magic the game cards” lol, are a little out there.
@@zacturf-n-sports6203 Malazan… is not for everyone… it’s an investment, and if you’re willing to trust the author, it’s an amazing pay off, especially on rereads
i’ve been reading a clash of kings and i’m really enjoy it because of the characters but my morbid curiosity definitely wants more grotesque details of violence and darker characters. excited to check some of these out!
Did you get to read it yet? The entire Second Apocalypse series is the darkest and sickest stuff I've ever read (aside from real life of course - humans in reality have done a _lot_ worse than what fantasy books convey). It's a freaking brilliant series :D
I have it but still reading the second in the Prince of thorns trilogy. We had a baby a year ago so reading time has been reduced just a bit! but i have it still lined up ready to be read at some point! cheers
@@brudershaft4539 I am a solo parent of two kids (had to run away from their father when pregnant with our second sadly, he went a bit crazy with alcohol etc and ended up in prison) Y_Y anyway not trying to tell a sob story, just saying that I understand about not having actual reading time. So what I've done forever now is listen to audiobooks :D While I cook, clean, exercise, draw, walk, fall asleep, I listen to audiobooks to get my literature in. This way I get hours of "reading" in every day while still getting daily tasks done and having ample time for the kids etc - audiobooks are, imo, one of the greatest things to ever exist, heh. How is Prince of Thorns going? I'd always avoided it because the title made it sound like a teenagery book, I'd assumed it was like Twilight and those other books :P After this video, I realize I was wrong but there's a few I haven't listened to so I'm trying to work out which one to start after I finish Hyperion/Hyperion Falls :D Also congratz on the baby and good luck with everything ^_^
@@Vexarax I totally agree! When I'm working I try and have something going on in my ears fantasy related, a lot of the times I use the LOTR ambience vids on UA-cam, kind of go round in a loop which suits the kind of work I do at the laptop. Raising just one little one is hard enough with two of us, so much respect to you for doing it solo with two. Prince series is a bit weird, it's a little bit of a slog, not lengthwise, just the timeline of it flicks back and forth every chapter near enough which annoys me a little bit, in all I'd give it a 5/10. I generally read high fantasy or grimdark and not sure if this fits into either. I will finish it though just on principal! I'll check out Hyperion if you rate it? cheers
A forerunner for Grimdark is David Gemmell. You should Google him as his books are similar with gory action,grey characters. I'm just finishing First Law Trilogy and they read similar to David Gemmell. Although Joe Abercrombie and John Gwynne have both said they were inspired by his work. David Gemmell even had an Awards ceremony named after him when he died. I recommend his Drenai books especially Legend and Waylander. Other authors similar to Gemmell but are more Grimdark are John Gwynne, Anna Smith Spark (who has been touted as the female Joe Abercrombie). Plus Andy Remics Iron Wolves books and Ian Graham. Hope you try them out. Neil
Agreed with your comment that it's better to treat the first law universe books as a series and to read them in release order. You get way more out of the standalone books if you know what happened in the previous books along and the character references.
One thing I learned was "you can never have too many knives." Once you read First Law Trilogy you'll understand. Great series, fantastic character work.
That's why I clicked too, haha. Imo, it's the penultimate example of the darkest, sickest, and grimest the fantasy genre has to offer. Though some of it could also class as sci fi. It's like a nightmare fever dream - I love it! :D
These are fantastic! I think I definitely gravitate more toward the Grimheart genre than pure grimdark, but I do enjoy grimdark as well. Love that new category.
Great video! And thank you for the recommendations. I will be checking out The Lies of Locke Lamora this year. I am in the middle of the First Law Trilogy. Prince of Thorns and The Prince of Nothing Trilogy are on my radar as well. But so many more great suggestions of books to check out here as well. :)
Thanks, this was a fun video! Binging Chasing Graves atm, almost finished Grim Solace. You're right, it's too light to be called real grimdark. Dark and dastardly(-isch), but also lighthearted and fun. Also: Abercrombie 🖤🖤🖤! Though i really enjoyed Prince of Nothing, i missed some (black) humor (and women). So i guess i'm not totally into the deep stuf, i just like to put my toe in there sometimes. For me personally Malazan is the perfect mix between "the deep stuff" and fun.
I would put Malazan into The Deep End as well, there's some severely dark shit in there, especially later books. Erikson, Bakker, Morgan, these are three of the best authors I've read in the genre. Great video and analysis!
Thank you so much for all the recommendations! Kinda new to the genre, but I just finished the two Abercrombie trilogies and LOVED them. So, I want more and don't know where to continue. 😊 Here's my question, though: as a female reader, I get rather annoyed when all female protagonists are prostitudes/assault survivors, when assault victims fall in love with their abuser, or similar sexist clichés. A little sexualised violence is fine by me if it serves a purpose for the story and isn't a cheap way to get some shock value... You know what I mean? Can any of you guys narrow down the list for me?
Adrian Selby writes some of the best female characters I've read. Though he writes with a much more realistic tone, so you won't find an abundance of humor like Abercrombie. But, I would also recommend Ben Galley's Chasing Graves trilogy.
Awesome video. I've seen and even participated in grim dark conversations from your discord server lol. I'll have to read Prince of Fools this year. I'm ready for it. Also, more Abercrombie and Best Served Cold.
Keep those excellent recommendations coming! I should be getting my first Fletcher novel in a delivery this afternoon, looking forward to reading it 🤓 Grimdark is hard to pin down, especially since morally grey characters have been on the rise for quite some time - but your picks should satisfy anyone who has, or wants to cultivate, a black heart 😋 As an aside Warhammer's Black Library has plenty of nice books that offer just the kind of grim darkness you'd expect from the quote that named all this stuff 😉
It certainly can get confusing at times, with the wide variety of darkness these days.. just hoping to help a little. Let me know your thoughts on Fletcher 😉
I like the categories you made,, I was looking for something to read and the only grim dark was the first law trilogy a couple of years ago and wanted to read something similar
Been getting further into Grimdark after reading Joe Abercrombie. Been reading a ton of Sanderson lately but have been wanting to get back into grim dark or Horror
You aren't helping in my decision to cut out some fantasy for more sci-fi this year.
What is this Sci-fi you speak of 😉
@@slowlyred2082 Apparently The Gap Cycle by Donaldson is SF Grimdark. So just a thought.
Yeah, I heard it's got some pretty despicable dudes.. can't say that doesn't get my attention
To be fair, Mike, space can be pretty grim and is most certainly dark.
thanks for the recommendation Mike
Me accident clicking on this video: “who is this guy?! How did I even get here?”
Me 15 minutes in with a piece of paper:” Thank God I found this page. Is it destiny?.”
Hahaha, yes!!! 🙏
"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."
Maybe not tgat far
War, war never changes....
ALL HAIL THE OMNISIAH.
What I want from grim dark is the deepest darkest pits of despair and madness that the human mind can create. I want it to go into horrifying detail on every page about the setting wether it be a run down shack with nails rusted and metal doors dusting apart with the constant fear of disease, and/or the setting of total war, barbed wire sticking into and out of skin pulling away the form of what we thought was humanity, blades being plunged into already open wounds, a soldier standing in the middle of madness, his sane mind lost to a lingering past weeping out for his loved ones, artillery than bursting him into a red mist and his bone flying into another soldiers throat. That might just be me, I’m in love with gory detail, I want the setting to feel like its entire own character separate but constantly changing and affecting the main character.
I would definitely suggest R. Scott Bakker and Michael R Fletcher
Shoutout to the Black Company. This is what got me started like 14 years ago and is still at the top of my list.
Feet first!!
@@slowlyred2082 it changed my life. I think i was like 18 and still reading dean koontz books and john Grisham novels... its what my mom read dont judge me. An older cousin introduced me to the series and gave me the first 4 books, had the rest torrented in a week. Its a fucking masterpiece.
I actually got into grimdark from reading the manga Berserk. It was so shocking, mature and philosophically rich compared to any other fantasy I’ve ever read that I fell in love with the genre.
After reading Berserk, I moved onto Conan, Elric and Kane.
Then Mistborn, Prince of Thorns, Black Company and Night Angel.
Now I’m reading The Poppy War, Second Apocalypse, Steel Remains and First Law.
I’m forever grateful to Berserk for showing me how dark and deep fantasy can be.
Indeed. That is... kinda the level of darkness I would be interested in. A world full of rape, torture, murder, horrible desperation, hopelessness and suffering. A story that is not afraid to go to any length, where infants are impaled and put up to hammer in fear and submission into the people.
However my memory of Guts, is that he was pretty much a good guy trapped in a really bad world. That is fine, I like to read about a rather good guy trying to surf in a stormy sea. However, what I have gotten the slightest taste of but never really gotten to bite properly into, is a main character who makes his or her own morals. Not going out of their way to help others. Willing to exterminate entire villages or towns, however if you fu**ing dare touch his lovers, his family, his friends, his people, hell even his slaves if it so be. Well prepare for hells fury.
He would not need to be cruel or could even be nice to most people. However if someone has made themselves his enemy there should no longer be any blows to low. Make his enemies watch their children suffer and die due to their actions. A woman tries to attack him or his companion? Murder most cruel. Or perhaps she is of high standing. Looking down on others? Perhaps corrective ra** would be in order, as she will find being sullied and humiliated the worst of punishments. If he has to, have him willing to sacrifice random children, even just to drag out the time it takes before a disease takes away someone he cares about. Have him preform downright horrific experiments on people in a quest for knowlage and understanding of body and soul.
A world where the strong eat the weak and might makes right.
And no kind act goes unpunished. I would love to see the characters try to do good from time to time. Sometimes it may work out and bring benefits. Other times it may lead to disaster.
The Poppy War is as YA as YA can be. It has graphic violence in one chapter but it’s still YA 😕
What do you recommend ? I’m a Berserk fan and I want to try « reading » something else than manga, I heard Mistborn was cool , soul u try it first ?
Mistborn is very entertaining but definitely a lot lighter in tone from Berserk. I would maybe suggest Between Two Fires by Christopher Buehlman
@@kitsune-c8j Book 2 and 3 are much darker lol.
Beyond Redemption was my inspiration for the first GM'ing I did in D&D and Pathfinder, criminally unrecognized greatness
Enjoyed Beyond Redemption! After ASOIAF, I started audiobooks with the Faithful and the Fallen and really enjoyed it. My all time favorite are the first law books. Read them and listened to them all multiple times. Hard to find something now. King Killer Chronicles was good if that’s Grimdark
What a fantastic fucking list man. Somebody who really understands the genre and includes lesser known works as well as options for people around the edges of the genre. Tons of gold here cant wait to dig in. Will probably start with Traitors Blade and go darker from there. Prince of Thornes is one of the greatest books there is imo and Mark Lawrence is so talented its not even funny.
You think Laurence first book was the best one
Dude I'm so happy I stumbled upon this video! I've been reading The Prince of Nothing series religiously the past 2 weeks! It's been so long since I really connected with novels and this is IT.
Awesome to see someone recommend grimdark works in this way, explaining what and why makes them more or less violent, disturbing and what kind of reading style it is. I've skimmed through many forums where people just say "x is dark", but there are so many ways something can be dark and disturbing, not to mention just how subjective difficult subject matter is to individual readers.
This video truly helped understand what these stories really are, helped me make some decisions and order some damn books and start reading! Thank you for making this!
Just found your channel and glad I did. Glen Cook's Black Company is, I believe, way underrated. You can see the influence he has had on grim dark that follows. Thanks for the video, although I'm a bit late to it.
Dude, you are fast becoming my fav booktuber! Be safe, keep reading, keep cool!
Thank you 🙏
You sold me on the Prince of Nothing series. I had the first one at one point, as well as Locke Lamora, the Steel Remains etc but never got to reading them before losing everything in a house fire. I'm rebuilding my book collection, so far I've only re-purchased first law and broken empire but this video gave me alot to put on my list. We have similar taste in books so I trust these recommendations. Thanks!
I'm sorry to hear about the fire, hopefully your collection builds bigger than before
I can see how much you love grimdark. Thank you for delving into each book and explaining the plot and what is so great about each one. The past two channels I went to looking for book recommendations just suggested books without really talking about why the books are so great. I subscribed to your channel right away because you kept me watching from beginning to end. Looking forward to more! I started a spreadsheet of grimdark books to check out, so THANK YOU!
A whole new bathing suit huh? Lmao that was quite the picture
Hahahahaha.. grimdark swimwear
A few of these already grace my shelves, and others I will absolutely have to give a try. Thanks for the sub-genre breakdown.
Lol damn you made me laugh at the end " maybe it did hurt someone but you know they probably deserved it". Classic !
Mwahahaha
I read a lot of high fantasy, and normally purchase audio books while at work. I didn't know what Prince of Thorns was going to be, I had never heard of it, just bought it and pushed play. Immediately knew I had found something different and loved it, I've been looking for more grimdark to fill the void since I finished Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire trilogy.
So glad to see the Manifest Delusions series get some love, one of the best series out there and so few people know about it.
One of my all time favorites 🖤
@@slowlyred2082 Same, probably also the series with the most laugh-out-loud moments for me - despite how fucked up everything in the world is. The dysfunctionality of the relationship between Bedeckt, Stehlen, and Wichtig is just too good. Their solo chapters that set up the story in Mirror's Truth are truly hilarious.
Agree 100%
Scott Bakker is for me a visceral grimdark genre. The guy writings piece flesh, bone and soul.
Hell yeah this is awesome! I’ve been wanting to read more grimdark material. I’m currently working my way through Last Argument of Kings and the First Law trilogy as a whole is top notch.
I'm currently in the middle of Malazan series, and every time you start talking about Bakker's The Second Apocalypse, it makes me want to set my book down and do a Bakker reread instead.
Reading last book of malazan right now, looking what to read next. Is Bakker worth it?
Bakker is more than worth it 👍
in my opinion He's the best fantasy writer. Epic, dark, tragic, beautiful and soul wrenching.
@@slowlyred2082 thanks. gonna give it a try
Dude i just fpund ypur channel and mad respect. I follow alot of top fanatasy booktubers but they mostly talk about the most talked books and famous books and authors .
You are more my taste when it comes to reading and hope ypur channel grows .
Plus i got to give mad respect to the beard man
Thanks dude!! 🙏
This was excellent! I loved the categories names. Grimheart! Hahaha! I'm really enjoying Before They are Hanged right now. I think I need more grim-dark in my life. Thanks to you, I now have a great guide to refer to.
Man I read everyone of those books, and listened to them all!!! They are soooo good, great character archs, back stories, on and on. John Gwynn has a series called the faithful and the fallen. The first book is Malice, it starts slow, but OMG it is amazing. 4 books, then he has 3 more that take place 100 years after in the same world
Thanks for taking the time to do this video. I'm not an avid reader, but I wanted to see what Grimdark is about and picked up The Blade Itself after seeing some recommendations. Going to make note of these, especially the first-person books.
Mannnnn! Now I have to move the Prince of Nothing higher up on the list. haha. I did notice you replaced the Broken Empire books on your shelf with The Prince of Nothing trilogy so I had a feeling it must be good. Fantastic recommendations Mark, I will be checking out a few of these this year.
Your grandpa theories were intelligent, insightful, and compelling. I definitely agree with you in regard to the lies of luck Lamora. My reason being in order for something to be Grimm dark, the world must seem like a hopeless place full of despair. And not getting any better. That doesn’t mean that characters don’t have moments of happiness. However, the world is just not a good place.I think that Grimm dark is about people trying to navigate through hopeless world filled with despair.
I just found your channel. Keep it up. I love Grim Dark. Mark Lawrence has been my favorite as of now.
Thank you 🙏
New Grim Dark reader fresh off the First Law Trilogy. I appreciate the list, and look forward to delving deeper into this genre 🤟.
That is the best piece of information about the grimdark subgenre I ever came across.
I have an ambigous feeling about the genre. For one I think there are some really awesome grimdark books which deserves way more attention and I would love if more people would dive into that genre. On the other hand I know a lot of people who would be brought down by such dark and bleak stuff. Even watching News makes them depressive. Those people should better stay away from grimdark novels. I myself can get quite some fun out of dark stories, heck I sometimes listen to brutal metal to liften my mood (it is more likely that I get depressions from german schlager music which is supposed to bring you some fun).
Edit: I have a theory that I need some dark stories and dark music to set my dark side at peace. To still the hunger of the monster within me. That kind of enables me to disregard my dark side for the rest of my daily life.
I enjoy Grimdark because it can be extremely emotional for me. In real life I tend to be the tough one so when I lose myself in a book I want the full spectrum. I cry by the end of most of the Grimdark books I read haha
long time i did not laugh so much with a funny&dark-booktuber!! 🤣😍 thanks for recommendations
PD: I have just started reading a Joe Abercrombie's: The Blade Itself.. for now I'm enjoying my time
Brilliantly done video. Messes up my TBR but that's what I'm here for
New to grim dark. I’ve loved fantasy a long time and I’ve recently enjoyed horror. Grim dark may be the perfect place for me. Currently reading shadow of the gods. Maybe that’s grimdark. Great video!
Great overview- wish you could spend some more time talking about the Black Company
Thanks for this man im part way through the first law world and this helped me realize the book im working on is in the grimheart category, real nice to get into the best works that aimed for the same kinda tone before me
Great video - added a few to my TBR - thanks!
Great video. I have been wanting to try grim dark and wasn't sure where to start. I have heard many recommend First Law and Black Company. That sounds like the perfect starting point for me. This is a great breakdown for me to sample.
thank you for this video! i literally found everything that i needed in just 20 minutes. it is really helping.
You had me at "Michael Moorcock on steroids." 😂For real, though, I'm sharing this video with my mom, who introduced my to Michael Moorcock when I was either a teenager or maybe it was my early 20's. She influenced by reading a LOT, introducing me to Tolkien, Lovecraft, Moorcock, Dan Simmons, C.S. Friedman, and many others. Pretty sure she's gonna get a kick out of your suggestions. Also, I just found you this evening and am subscribing now! Can't wait to watch more of your videos.
Finally taking the dive into prince of nothing today.
Hell yeah 😎
Actually no. I can't. I'm in the middle or Obsidian heart, Manifest delusions, Jade war, ash and sand and the five warrior angels. Plus I'm doing malazan next year as a read along. It's gonna have to wait haha
@@seanhalpin87 daaaamn.. that's a lot to have on a plate at once. I salute you.
I did buy the trilogy though so it's gonna be read within the next year for sure
As soon as you mentioned your Grimheart definition, I immediately thought of the Gentleman Bastard series. Was glad to see you mention it, even though it wasn't your thing. It is true about it having a great insight into the friendship between two of the characters in the books.
Yeah. I really tried to bring something together that encompasses more than just my views/opinions. And gentlemen bastards is certainly tried and true, for most
Just found your channel and I love it... I am super new to fantasy at 44 coming from 30+ years of horror and you have set me on a wallet emptying path of bliss... By the Gods thank you... What I've read this year has made me a grim dark fan
Awesome, well welcome to the dastardly club 😉
Grimdark definitely brought me over to fantasy from horror and sci fi. Been loving all the madness ever since.
The bad thing about reading Bakker is that afterward all the authors seem inferior. I had to turn to classic authors like Dostoyevsky to be able to find readings that are at that literary level, because in the fantasy genre there is nothing that comes close to it.
Thanks for the fantastic recommendations!
I finished the Broken Empire series and loved it. The First Law trilogy, colossal masterpiece.
I bought the Manifest Delusions book and and the first prince of nothing book,
Incredibly excited 🤘🧟♂️
Yes!! You're killing it 👏 🙌
That chapter in priest of bones which deals with child abuse was very confronting. Still love that book and series.
Great video by the way 🤓
I’ve heard of and read some of the series mentions in this video and have to say I’m happy someone decided to break down the sub-genre down. Thank you
Thank you 🙏
Thank you for your recs man. I'm currently creating a fantasy world of myself with lots of dark themes about constant war and tons of dark themes, but do want to compliment it with what you call Grimheart.
A great Grimheart series would be Peter V. Brett's "Demon Cycle." It's not perfect, but it is a fun ride. If you like Grimheart and 'anime' like inspiration, then you will love it.
There recently was a stream with Peter V. Brett and Steven Erikson as well as some other authors, but I think it was either Brett or Erikson who brought the term 'Grimhope' up for books like Demon Cycle, which I found to be rather fitting.
Loved it. The last book was disappointing, but the rest were amazing. Read until my eyes felt like they were going to pop out.
Peter Brett is the opposite of Grimdark to me, as the last book showed...felt as some YA, christian pushing agenda with a good magic system.
@@jenmarie2030 Same, last book felt rushed. Like there was more story to be told, but Brett just wanted it to be over.
@@pau5781 Don't know about "Pushing an Agenda". He didn't paint his "Muslim" stand-ins and being 100% evil and the "Christian" stand-ins committed rape of one of the main characters.
As a fellow grimdark fan, I also find it to be such a nebulous genre to explain and define so this breakdown was really helpful!
Hurts me to hear my baby Locke didn't work for you, but I definitely agree that it's a great rec for Grimheart :)
If you want a series that very overtly combines Lovecraftian horror and grimdark I highly recommend Gunmetal Gods by Zamil Akhtar! It takes place in the middle east and centers around a holy war where the gods mayyy not be as far away as people think 👀
to me my first grim dark was thomas covenant, annihilistic worlds , great phrase for grim dark black company was great...your centered great presentation...
I've really started getting into grimdark recently. This video is an excellent resource with a lot of great recommendations. Thank you!
Glad I could help 🙏
Things can get a little confusing when dipping into grimdark
I just started reading grim-dark, and finished "The Barrow" by Mark Smylie. Now, I can’t seem to find anything that even comes close. which brings me here, hoping to hear something that sounds like it.
I also read "The Steel Remains" by Richard Morgan, which was good but not "The Barrow" good.
I started reading "The Black Company," but as you mentioned, it's fast, choppy pace is a bit too much for me.
This was helpful as I'm relatively new to grimdark. I appreciate the laid back presentation style too. Cheers!
Glad to help 🙏
Thanks for this video! I’m so excited to add a couple of these books to my TBR for 2021. Currently working my way through Broken Empire then sounds like I’ll jump into some Morgan and Baker now after your recommendations in this video.
I hope you enjoy, I loved both. Bakker is my new favorite, for sure. 🖤
Man your channel is nuts. I feel like I've found a long lost brother looool
Maybe you have 😉
Best Served Cold is excellent!
Yes it is!! 👌
My fav Joe
Do you know about Byzans...small mobile app for book lovers? Very fun community.
@@micheledion2000 no, I haven't heard of it before
@@slowlyred2082if you decide to give it a try, I'm Michele Dionne over there. Just pick want to read, currently reading or read by book (eg The Way of Kings, The Blade Itself, etc.). I enjoy it alot.
I just started reading grimdark and Joe Abercrombie. Thank you for giving me an understanding of the genre.
Also checkout prince of thorns
This guide is missing The Vagrant Trilogy by Peter Newman, other than that, pure awesome,
youve read the best stuff ive read & more & you are passionate abt it in a great way. Wish knew ppl like you irl to nerd out.
The Vagrant is awesome 👌
I unfortunately hadn't read it at the point of making this video. But I agree, a very worthy tale with immense imagination
This was so informative! I liked how you explained some of the sub genres and the style of the authors! Great video 👍
Thank you 🙏
New to channel, great stuff. Grim dark, Abercrombie is the only one I guess, no clue but my son recommended it to me and its awesome.
Abercrombie is a beast. Astounding characters with personalities through the roof
I appreciate your attention to detail. Excellent video
Thank you 🙏
Definitely added some books to my TBR from here! I haven't read a ton of grimdark, but have enjoyed most of what I've read.
i got broken empire off your sug, i actually found you through loving between two fires... id be lying if i said i was SUPER IMMERSED IN BOOKS ive more dived in this year so im diving in. thanks for your content! grim/dark/satanic (oooh spooky) or devilish or demonic/horror/fantasy etc seems my realm love anything along those lines.
Yeah that stuff is my jam!!
@@slowlyred2082 def i studied some theologies for awhile once my dad passed (without getting too deep) and the "darker/oooh how dare you" ones always made the most sense - so i always love seeing how authors see them as well as just using that dark/uneasy (for seemingly everyone but me around me) atmosphere as i read lol
Edit* its... Awkwardly comforting? Like a unwelcoming world of my own lol
Yes, the darkness is a comfortable escape for some of us 😉
@@slowlyred2082 you are not wrong my friend. music (primarily darker in content) was always my first love and older i get there is a piece that from there bled into all other media - as i got out of the "school: fuck reading, i do it enough" age LOL.
Oddly even now on a personal journey reading theologies I - somewhat humorously to my friends - keep my Satanic/Pagan/etc type stuff with my Bibles/Qurans/etc. - Why not?
I keep my horror books together, my wrestling books together, games, etc yada, why not theologies? Even if they probably war on my bookshelf LOL.
First time watching you bro, I loved your video, you are very knowledgeable, and I can tell you truly love doing this!! I loved Abercrombies books!! My favorite! John Gwynn’s “Faithful and the fallen” is amazing series! Nicholas Eames “ kings of the wyld” was great too!! Loved broken empire, but I’m really not the 3rd person, multiple character points of view like Abercrombie, GRR, Gwynn. Thanks brother looking forward to more recommendations
This was the best video I’ve ever seen on book tube!!! Fuck ya. Thanks for making our black hearts laugh.
Anytime 😉
It’s awesome that you took a sub genre and handily split it up into half a dozen other sub genres?! Awesome, the Grimheart especially
I would add Malazan to “The Deep End”
Thanks for several great new recommendations!
Yes!! I have been reading grim dark, fantasy, philosophy books, I’m a history teacher so you can imagine the things I’ve read… but Malazahn is still kicking my ass. I started the first book, and have not been able to make myself continue reading it like I want. I’ve read or listened to 10 other books since that one. I know it takes a few books to grasp Thst series, but I’m struggling to find a character I really like and the entire “magic the game cards” lol, are a little out there.
@@zacturf-n-sports6203 Malazan… is not for everyone… it’s an investment, and if you’re willing to trust the author, it’s an amazing pay off, especially on rereads
@@mkgnlgt That’s what everyone says! I’m not giving up. I really like it!!
@@zacturf-n-sports6203 that’s great, you won’t regret it, happy reading!
i’ve been reading a clash of kings and i’m really enjoy it because of the characters but my morbid curiosity definitely wants more grotesque details of violence and darker characters. excited to check some of these out!
Great info, cheers. Will line up Prince of Nothing as next on reading list.
Did you get to read it yet? The entire Second Apocalypse series is the darkest and sickest stuff I've ever read (aside from real life of course - humans in reality have done a _lot_ worse than what fantasy books convey). It's a freaking brilliant series :D
I have it but still reading the second in the Prince of thorns trilogy. We had a baby a year ago so reading time has been reduced just a bit! but i have it still lined up ready to be read at some point! cheers
@@brudershaft4539 I am a solo parent of two kids (had to run away from their father when pregnant with our second sadly, he went a bit crazy with alcohol etc and ended up in prison) Y_Y anyway not trying to tell a sob story, just saying that I understand about not having actual reading time. So what I've done forever now is listen to audiobooks :D While I cook, clean, exercise, draw, walk, fall asleep, I listen to audiobooks to get my literature in. This way I get hours of "reading" in every day while still getting daily tasks done and having ample time for the kids etc - audiobooks are, imo, one of the greatest things to ever exist, heh. How is Prince of Thorns going? I'd always avoided it because the title made it sound like a teenagery book, I'd assumed it was like Twilight and those other books :P After this video, I realize I was wrong but there's a few I haven't listened to so I'm trying to work out which one to start after I finish Hyperion/Hyperion Falls :D
Also congratz on the baby and good luck with everything ^_^
@@Vexarax I totally agree! When I'm working I try and have something going on in my ears fantasy related, a lot of the times I use the LOTR ambience vids on UA-cam, kind of go round in a loop which suits the kind of work I do at the laptop. Raising just one little one is hard enough with two of us, so much respect to you for doing it solo with two. Prince series is a bit weird, it's a little bit of a slog, not lengthwise, just the timeline of it flicks back and forth every chapter near enough which annoys me a little bit, in all I'd give it a 5/10. I generally read high fantasy or grimdark and not sure if this fits into either. I will finish it though just on principal! I'll check out Hyperion if you rate it? cheers
Absolutely terrific summary. I’ve read all of the books you’ve covered and I’m with you 100%.
Thanks brother 🙏
I got Congregation of Jackals on deck for the end of the month 😉
A forerunner for Grimdark is David Gemmell. You should Google him as his books are similar with gory action,grey characters. I'm just finishing First Law Trilogy and they read similar to David Gemmell. Although Joe Abercrombie and John Gwynne have both said they were inspired by his work.
David Gemmell even had an Awards ceremony named after him when he died. I recommend his Drenai books especially Legend and Waylander.
Other authors similar to Gemmell but are more Grimdark are John Gwynne, Anna Smith Spark (who has been touted as the female Joe Abercrombie).
Plus Andy Remics Iron Wolves books and Ian Graham.
Hope you try them out. Neil
I'm starting Anna Smith Spark's Empires of Dust next month 🙌
Gemmell's Legend is definitely on my list
This is all true! Nice one! 👍
Excellent recommendations, thanks!!!
Agreed with your comment that it's better to treat the first law universe books as a series and to read them in release order. You get way more out of the standalone books if you know what happened in the previous books along and the character references.
He really is building something from book 1 that carries throughout. First Law is like a skeleton that Abercrombie adds flesh to, with each book
Thank you for this Grimdark guide. I definitely want to give Joe Abercrombie a try.
I would love to see your thoughts on his work.
One thing I learned was "you can never have too many knives." Once you read First Law Trilogy you'll understand. Great series, fantastic character work.
This randomly came up in my feed and I only clicked to see if 2nd Apocalypse was mentioned.
🖤
That's why I clicked too, haha. Imo, it's the penultimate example of the darkest, sickest, and grimest the fantasy genre has to offer. Though some of it could also class as sci fi. It's like a nightmare fever dream - I love it! :D
Grim, Dark, and Deep end is what I'm here for. Great list.
You're description of Morgan made me giggle with dark delight.
Hahahaha
These are fantastic! I think I definitely gravitate more toward the Grimheart genre than pure grimdark, but I do enjoy grimdark as well. Love that new category.
definitely saved this video. thanks man, probably will add all of this to my list
This is spot on, couldn't agree more. Especially Bakker, the master!
Great stuff, bro. Will read every single one, damn.
i was sent here by mike. my favorite genre is grimdark so looks like i found the right place!
Right on, welcome 🙏
Good Video ! ,looking forward to read Greatcoats and the Gentleman Bastards after your crisp reviews 👌
Thank you 🙏
That Wink 4:45, Damn :)
Just found your channel. Love it. Subscribing.
Thank you 🙏
Great video! And thank you for the recommendations. I will be checking out The Lies of Locke Lamora this year. I am in the middle of the First Law Trilogy. Prince of Thorns and The Prince of Nothing Trilogy are on my radar as well. But so many more great suggestions of books to check out here as well. :)
Thank you 🙏
Thanks, this was a fun video! Binging Chasing Graves atm, almost finished Grim Solace. You're right, it's too light to be called real grimdark. Dark and dastardly(-isch), but also lighthearted and fun.
Also: Abercrombie 🖤🖤🖤!
Though i really enjoyed Prince of Nothing, i missed some (black) humor (and women). So i guess i'm not totally into the deep stuf, i just like to put my toe in there sometimes. For me personally Malazan is the perfect mix between "the deep stuff" and fun.
Chasing graves 🙌
Yeah, malazan is on the horizon. But Aspect Emperor series first
I would put Malazan into The Deep End as well, there's some severely dark shit in there, especially later books. Erikson, Bakker, Morgan, these are three of the best authors I've read in the genre. Great video and analysis!
Yeah, I haven't read past Gardens of the Moon, so I'm unable to speak for Malazan, for now 😉
After Aspect Emperor, looking towards Malazan
@@slowlyred2082 oh yeah! I plan on reaching aspect emperor next month as well. Should also read more from Morgan, but my TBR is stacked lol
Lol, the tbr towers
Thank you so much for all the recommendations! Kinda new to the genre, but I just finished the two Abercrombie trilogies and LOVED them. So, I want more and don't know where to continue. 😊 Here's my question, though: as a female reader, I get rather annoyed when all female protagonists are prostitudes/assault survivors, when assault victims fall in love with their abuser, or similar sexist clichés. A little sexualised violence is fine by me if it serves a purpose for the story and isn't a cheap way to get some shock value... You know what I mean? Can any of you guys narrow down the list for me?
Adrian Selby writes some of the best female characters I've read. Though he writes with a much more realistic tone, so you won't find an abundance of humor like Abercrombie. But, I would also recommend Ben Galley's Chasing Graves trilogy.
@@slowlyred2082 awesome, I'll look into it.
Thank you for the recommendation of books 😊
Dude you really motivated me for some picks considering i m new to the genre
Thanks a ton ❤️
My pleasure 🙏
Sorry, for whatever reason I mixed up Peter Brett with Brent Weeks (similar names for a not English native speaker) in a couple of comments I made lol
Awesome video. I've seen and even participated in grim dark conversations from your discord server lol. I'll have to read Prince of Fools this year. I'm ready for it. Also, more Abercrombie and Best Served Cold.
Both are excellent choices 👌
Oh no more great books to read. Thank you for another great video.
Thank you 🙏
brah.....i love it the vid your style.....gonna bindge some of your vids you look cool😎
Whoa never thought of "Grimheart" but it's definitely a match for all the books you mentioned AND the Paladin Trilogy
Low Town!
your list has a lot in common with my Criminally Underrated and Underdiscussed Fantasy video
picked up prince of fools last week. almost finished it, soooo gooood
🖤
Fantastic video! I now have some new series to read thanks to you. You definitely earned a like and sub
Thank you 🙏
Keep those excellent recommendations coming!
I should be getting my first Fletcher novel in a delivery this afternoon, looking forward to reading it 🤓
Grimdark is hard to pin down, especially since morally grey characters have been on the rise for quite some time - but your picks should satisfy anyone who has, or wants to cultivate, a black heart 😋
As an aside Warhammer's Black Library has plenty of nice books that offer just the kind of grim darkness you'd expect from the quote that named all this stuff 😉
It certainly can get confusing at times, with the wide variety of darkness these days.. just hoping to help a little.
Let me know your thoughts on Fletcher 😉
I like the categories you made,, I was looking for something to read and the only grim dark was the first law trilogy a couple of years ago and wanted to read something similar
Been getting further into Grimdark after reading Joe Abercrombie. Been reading a ton of Sanderson lately but have been wanting to get back into grim dark or Horror
Great video, going to have this as a reference for the future
Thank you 🙏