After watching the end of Shadow of war, the beginning is even more heartbreaking. Talion gives the New Ring to Shelob to save Celebrimbor. At this point, Talion doesn't need Celebrimbor for anything anymore. With the New Ring, he is as inmortal as he was in Shadow of Mordor, and he has the skill to dominate Uruks. He could have left the Elf to rot in Shelob's cave until she decided to feast on his sould, and he could have conquered all of Mordor alone. He refused to all that only to save Celebrimbor, because he saw him as his friend. Watching Celebrimbor betray Talion hurts even more if you think of that, and proves how different they are from each other. Even Nazgul Talion has a brighter heart than the so called Bright Lord himself
Oh man you're right! I didn't even think about that! They were both faced with the same choice, power vs friendship, Talion saved his friend, and Celebrimbor betrayed him! Stings now
@@umbraghosts9043 Yeah, in fact that's the ending Shelob predicted (in one of her visions, Talion is dominating Sauron). However, that future implies that Talion never realizes how evil Celebrimbor is and helps him conquer the whole Middle Earth, which is what Shelob wanted to change
@@Alexalmo without playing the first game first, i actually really liked celebrinmor and talions dynamic. Even without knowing talion chose to save cele, His betrayal still stung so much. shelob is smart for stopping that ending where they win but man seeing talion turn into the 9 made me so sad. talion had a will only matched by sauron T.T thats saying something.
Yeah a solo Aragorn game would sell so many copies and maybe he could be with a small group of rangers that slowly get picked off by an enemy they are tracking until he is the only one (which could be why we see him all by himself in LOTR when we first see him)
I agree, and would expand that to say that many cool Tolkien games could be made, whether solo spin-offs like for Aragorn (or the other major characters) as well as bringing back the books/movies into a modern video game using Shadow of War as quality reference! i.e. i want to play through LOTR trilogy with shadow of war like quality and similar gameplay.
@@sneakcr3144 i would have loved this being acknowledged in a movie or something, like aragorn saying to one of the 9 ''You were a hero once, now you're a foe.'' and then proceeding to decapitate him with a 70 degree angle only for him to stab frodo afterwards :D
I loved Talion and his sacrifice. I thought the ending was actually a pretty cool idea. That final cutscene where he walks into the sunset was well done and felt earned. He's a brilliant character. If Middle Earth Games pop up in the future, I hope they are more like this than based on cannon.
I think they're juggling rights around a bit these days, but the title of 'Middle Earth' before Shadow of Mordor/War suggests they wanted to do other games with completely different characters.
@@galax4304 No, these games are not officially cannon in the middle earth lore. They use cannon as the base of the game, but alter events, characters and more to fit the narrative, rather than conforming to the cannon.
I think it’s very interesting that Bruz actually was right towards the beginning...”Bright Lord, Dark Lord, all the same really”, 😬😅crazy how Celebrimbor’s desire grew to take over all of middle earth. I loved the story 🙌🏼
And I there is a quote in one of the dying "scenes" I think. "He will not stop at Mordor, even Middle-Earth won't satisfy him" Is Shelob talking about Sauron or Celebrimor?
Love how they created a brand new character and shaped him into an interesting protagonist. Came here thanks to your recent video on history channel :)
I think what happened with the new ring of power was that Celebrimbor was scarred, so to speak, from his brief time wielding the One Ring. From the DLC missions in the first game, you see that by the time Celebrimbor confronted Sauron, he was beginning to succumb to a lust for power fuelled by the One Ring, and it seemed to have a similar effect on him that the Nine Rings had on the Nazgul, preventing his soul from passing on, fundamentally changing him into a wraith. When Celebrimbor forged his new ring, like Sauron he poured his own power and soul into it, including that scar of corruption, and the power of a wraith, the end result of said corruption. This new ring seemed to amplify those traits. So ultimately the effect was similar to the Nine, with this ring corrupting its bearer. Also, Celebrimbor seemed to have poured so much of his power into the ring that it seemed to be the master, not the other way around. Eventually he became so subjected to its will that his lust for power became insatiable. My guess is Talion wasn't affected by it because Celebrimbor's soul was still bound to him, taking the brunt of the corruption in a sense. I worry what it might have done to him with more time. Celebrimbor in the first game states that Talion would turn into a wraith (even without one of the Nazgul's rings) if he remained in his undead state for too long.
"Celebrimbor in the first game stated that Talion would turn into a wraith if he remained in his undead state for too long" When did he say this? May I have the exact quote, I feel like I've missed out on something?
Im fine with Talion truly dying. Im fine with Celebrimbor escaping. *But god dammit don't make Eltariel the main character if there is a next game* Edit: For all of you Eltariel lovers out there, there's a reason this comment is the most liked comment on this video in six months
There are no fortress left to conquer if 3rd game happens. Sauron is Dead, rings are gone and middle earth is peaceful. There might be trouble here and there but it will not spark a new war.
@@edwardmakabling418 well middle earth has a rich history so, if they can't make a game moving the story forward, they could go back and make a prequel and I am fine with that honestly.
@@mlmubaldo I was thinking, Celebrimbor being freed but missing the war so he created one and at the end totally banishes the orcs. Kind of parallel to the incomplete sequel of Lord of the rings which is the new shadow - orcs and likes just banish.
For a game that was absolutely lore-breaking, I have to admit, it made Talion one of my favorite characters in fiction. Believe it or not, I would like if Celebrimbor death happens in the Amazon TV show the way it did in this game (though it probably won't). I wouldn't be angry at it, making Shadow of Mordor & War canonical in the movie universe. I really think Talion is a character Tolkien would write.
They should really tweak the story a bit in order to fit the cannon, more exactly, the timeline. The story and characters are too good to not include them. It is just too hard to create a better story that fits that gap than this one...and if they release a serie or movies..it would blow up
I know this game series isn’t cannon but I think it should be considered at least partially cannon. It expands on so much of Mordors Lore and has some really fascinating characters. I would love to see an adaptation of this story as a book as some kind of lost legend of middle earth
I believe each series has its own 'canon' so that they can take creative liberties. The books, movies, and games have inconsistencies with each other but tell the overall story similarly.
I don't get why the game isn't canon, there is no major discrepancy with Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings. There is some discrepancy in timelines, but hey! At least Shadow of Mordor/War are not mediocre.
@@tameoregano5006 wym? The whole plot of the game contradicts everything that is said in the lore, starting from the TL to the actual motivations of the plot and how it develops
He willingly sacrificed his soul and eventually will to protect everyone. What's more, he held off the ring's corruption for decades, all on his desire to keep the world safe. That is one of the greatest acts of heroic sacrifice I've ever heard of.
The lore states that once you abandon death you can never pass on. So my guess is that the Valar knew of his sacrifice for Middle Earth and when his soul is no longer bound to Sauron, he was allowed to pass on and finally rest.
True but can you call that abandoning death as he as already dead Technically I mean By this point in time he was a revinent grave walker for nigh close to 20ish or so years. His life was death
@@kevind3974 he didnt abandon death in the first game, celebrimbor held him to undeath. By the end of shadow of mordor he simply put death on hold to fight Sauron, but when he had to put on Isildur's ring he lost all chances to rest
He was forced by Dark hand. Celebrimbor jumped into his body during ritual (that was when Dark hand realised he also needs to be part of the ritual as sacrifice, hence the ending fight), so he was denied death. After that he was dying against Sauron and then again when he got betrayed. In both of these he *wasnt killed* but struggling to survive, which cant be considered abandoning death. Only time he truly reject the death is in ending of first game when Celebrimbor offers him to pass on but it was manipulative act so Talion would fight on. You even later find out that Celebrimbor never wanted Talion to pass on in first place, as they would both perish.
He did. He can now rest with his family, if you see at the ending there's his sons broken sword and the white flower he gave his wife. But I wish we could see them a bit at least, but it's a awesome game anyway.
@@Maria46823 they already passed on so he couldn’t have seen them. Ofc he will see them since all we saw at the end was just him walking into the afterlife. He wasn’t already there.
Talion is honestly my favorite character in a video game, save maybe Darth Revan. He sacrificed everything for middle earth. He was a hero. He was a legend. Even Elrond woulda been like "damn bro. You really that cool?"
Does Talion not become one of the Nazgul in the trilogy of LOTR?? I would like to think he does... undone by the very power he was trying to use to fight Sauron......"Many who live deserve death and some who have died deserve life"....I like to think he's talking about Talion and his efforts...I know the game isn't cannon as far as I know but still.
Talion is practically the Revan of Middle Earth in every way, walking the line of good and bad, cheating death, forgetting things, and there being some discussion on whether or not he’s actually canon lol.
I think Talion is more like Carth than Revan. He just a loyal soldier of Gondor that lost his family, killed the man who did it, was left by his comrade and spend the rest of his existing as protector of his home.
the tragedy of Talion was such a fantastic story even if it wasn't exactly canon friendly. sacrificing his soul to hold back the forces of evil and struggling against the power that he needed to wield in order to do so. a perfect send off to see that he is finally allowed to leave Mordor and pass on into the beyond listed as an unsung hero
The ending was really good. Though Celebrimdor betrayed Talion, it was Talion who still won in the end by having the gift of Arda. The “mortality” which means his soul aren’t bound to middle earth and soon will be reunited with his family in times comes. And just for thinking about it, they were both fighting to hold Sauron until a new fellowships cames to put an end to the Dark Lord. Celebrimdor took a hold of Sauron with his immortality while Nazgul Talion are doing his best to weakened out Sauron armies until the ring fully corrupted him. Talion will never be heard, his name will never be written in a song about the heroics deeds of the fellowships.
“There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith. Ain’t that a bitch?”
I think that even if it’s not canon, the story telling and plot is very compelling and really drives you to invest into these characters, and especially at the end of shadow of war when talion is finally free, I really felt happy for his character and that he finally found his peace. The way they connect the story to the canon is pretty compelling, especially if you don’t actually know the lore, but even knowing the lore doesn’t really ruin anything for me since i actually had fun playing the game and enjoying the plot. If they somehow found a way to make this canon, I would not only like it, but would probably go nuts over it and probably invest even more time into the story they create.
Honestly the game has its issues canonically but it does fit decently with the films solely The Nazgûl were said to be at Dol Guldur like the Hobbit films and we see Sauron become the Eye instead of his more mobile counterpart as the Necromancer
@@ItsButterBean1020 They should really tweak the story a bit in order to fit the cannon. The story and characters are too good to not include them. It is just too hard to create a better story that fits that gap than this one...and if they release a serie or movies..it would blow up
@@sneakcr3144 eh idk about that I think it can work as a kind of “pre-sequel” for the Films (and maybe headcanon that in with the Amazon series and War in the North or something) but I definitely don’t think Tolkien’s lore should change to reflect adaptations
I like how his story kinda ties in pretty well with the main story of lord of the rings at least in the respect that it was cause of talion and his battles behind the scenes that Sauron didn’t dominate middle earth right away and that Mordor didn’t have a new cruel master in the form of celebrimbor. Talion was truly an underdog and hero in the shadows. And not to mention a new hero in the stories of middle earth and one that is welcome.
Talion reminds me of Aragon. I really enjoyed playing this character across 2 games. And the way they shoved the story into Middle Earth was great! At the end i wanted more :D
Both were very similar but where Talion succumbed Aragorn did not, but then again Talion resisted the power of ring for years until becoming a Nazgûl, so in someway they were pretty similar
I think when he was walking into the sunset he was walking to the Grey Haven's so he could sail west and live in peace because of all he has done for middle earth if it wasn't for him Sauron would have invaded middle earth decades earlier and the free people would either be dead or enslaved.
His soul went to heaven which is different as grey havens. Heaven is a dimension Eru Iluvatar reserved for the spirits of race of Men and which is outside of Arda and Ea. The undying lands is a holy place for immortal races such as Elves and Ainur: Valar and Maiar and their spirits, on Arda. So Elves and Ainur are bound to Earth and universe for eternity , while Men are not. Even if a body of an Elf or Maiar was destroyed they have to wait in Mandos Hall for revival. Men spirits dont.
@@pablito4762 Yes I know that Eru has a special place for men. However, I was talking about since he still looked alive with his weapons and the Elven structures in the distance along with the atmosphere of the area it felt like to me he was going to the Grey Havens. As technically he was a ringbearer. For me, he deserves to live out the rest of his mortal days in the bliss of Tol Eressea. Like Frod, Sam, and Bilbo. Because of what he did for Gondor and Middle Earth.
Talion’s story was so… tragic. One of my favorite characters and storylines in video game history for me. We need a sequel to these games with maybe Baranor exploring the East. I think that’d be tight
Talion is my favorite Middle-earth character. Between his amazing story, skills, weaponry and Troy Baker’s phenomenal voice acting skills, there is no character better.
If they ever do a sequel to Shadow of War, i hope we get to explore the eastern part of middle earth, that part barely gets touched by Tolkien, so they can pretty much go wild lorewise there. Maybe we can finaly meet the Blue Wizards!
The thing about a sequel is what would be the plot? Who would be the villain? We already saw Sauron’s defeat. We already saw the Nazgûl be freed. What would happen next?
@@senatorstevenarmstrong9821 The origin of the Ring war in the north around Rhovanion with the Nazgul Khamul and Mouth of Sauron being the main antagonists. I want to see how that went in the lore.
guys... i just spent a literal hour explaining this to my girlfriend and she listened the whole time. she even teared up a little at the end (i wept lol). she said it was so epic. ive won.
Tallon sacrificed everything just so morder could have a chance once he was gone, he took out near every single smark orc so they couldn't become a major force. One of the only characters I've ever cried for
man the heart-strings that this series tugs on are insane...not just the story but also the loss you go through when losing your favorite captains that you bond with over time.....I miss you so much Zathra Giggles 😭😭😭😭😭
@@kaanpercin1332 I think the take away from this, and one of the reasons its so believable as something Tolkien would write, is that with the ability to achieve great power that corrupts even the purest of beliefs. I'd even say that Celembrimbor is gandalf if he had taken the one ring. Celembrimbor wanted peace too, but then power corrupted him.
@wungielposting3160 , it’s also the same flower that Talion gave Ioreth at the beginning of the first game. It’s known as Niphredil I believe. Nice detail, I agree.
Man i have played and finished both games and i would really love if a talion hbo show or series of movies (bc i don't think his story can be told in only one) would be announced. Such an interesting character.
It is a lot to ask for but I would really like a LOTR game similar to Shadow of Mordor/War where you can create a custom character. The ability to choose race, class, hair color, etc., and create your own character while embarking on a journey in Middle Earth would be super awesome. I do like Talion and these are solid games.
The Shadow of Mordor/ War games are the most badass and epic stories in Lotr. I hope they make movies and make him canon, it would be hype. Im just glad Talion was able to be with his family again after all that suffering he went through. Its honestly insane how he was a normal human, turned wraith, human with a ring, then a Nazgul, then he finally gets piece. The guy literally did so much for Mordor, his story was epic and tragic but at least he finally found piece and was able to see his family again. They could do a sequel I guess with celebrimbor and Ezariel, which would be great. These games are honestly underrated even though they sold well and did well its just I feel it doesnt get the credit it deserves. I hope it gets a sequel. Eltariel and Celebrimbor are great characters. This will be after the OG Lotr Trilogy which will be awesome. It would be cool to see characters from the films in the game.
To those fearing Eltariel having a role in Shadow of Mordor 3, remember who is writing this. They can make someone you don't know or like into someone you love again if you give them the chance. And don't forget that the focus could be entirely on Celebrimbor.
Talion and the Shadow of ... games were really cool and it was quiet sad how it ended. I hope there will be some day a new game were we can play as Nazgul Talion, hunting Frodo and conquer Middleearth
I love talion, his journey as a character helps me in my own life somehow, since he could carry on despite everything and still be more human and caring than almost anyone inspires me to keep going
Shadow of Mordor is so well made that you can easily defeat basically any orc you come across except the lucky few imune to everything and kill you in one hit, but every orc has like two captains around it, you kill one and you end up being owned by 6 captains.
I love Talion, when I beat the fame my heart sunk. I was happy with the game and the characters in it. I'm currently playing on the hardest difficulty in the game
One thing to note is that in Shadow of Mordor, Talion states he is a Northerner. He did not seem to hold Gondor in high esteem, and I don't recall anything in the lore stating he was born in Minas Ithil. It was so jarring when I finished SoM and moved to Shadow of War and suddenly Talion is all about helping Gondor, saving Gondor, reescuing Gondorians...where was all that patriotic spirit in the old game? Btw, they did Celebrimbor dirty. In SoM he wished to pass on and leave Middle Earth behind yet in SoW they made it seem like it was always his plan to supplant Sauron and conquer Middle Earth. Such character assassination...
If we get a sequel I want to play Talion again and not Eltariel, I refuse to play the dlc because I can't stand the fact that she and Celebrimbor betrayed him.
I really liked Talion, tbh i thought his character could use a bit more depth, but i really loved what he stood for and his sacrifice at the end of SOW
I love this video, many other channels covering the topic wrongfully assume talion is driven by revenge throught the story, (which is never stated or even hinted at in the story) and i apreciate you keeping it real. Talion was driven by the plot that needed him, not vengance
Remember in the the lord of the ring, the battle for minas tirith where they are counting orc death ? - I m at 49 ! -me 57. Casually talion: 308651 orcs killed for me
The character is great but the games were a bit repetitive. I believe I would have rather enjoyed this game more if it offered the chance to use character skins from the Peter Jackson adaptations, for the sake of variety. I would have preferred if I could choose to simply walk into Mordor (pun intended) as Aragorn, Faramir, or Gandalf.
I want to play as an Uruk of my own design and reunite Mordor after the fall of the dark lord. Maybe fighting against Eltariel and Celebrimbor who are trying to dominate Mordor again. Power to the Orks!
I personally love these games and Talion especial so much so that I consider them canon to the movies, and while I would love more talion his story is over and he should be left to rest, that said a game about him before his original death or a game that takes place exclusively during the end game shadow wars would be amazing and I would pre-order those things the moment they were announced.
Then you get a realy SHALLOW character if any character at all. Without backstory,origin and no direction what so ever. You woud sacrifice for customized look over overall ingame depth of a character. I woud always go for a already set character then a shallow look i woud creative without any direction over it. (prime example is bethesda games). It's simply doesnt work that way.
Yeah and for back ground story choose like DA Origins (Love that game) small example the race of a Human can choose to be of Gondor, Rohan, Rangers or a Nomad (Outcast) Obviously the Nomad would make your game playthrough difficult your combat skills is lack luster (swords manship you are crappy and unable to wield properly so you use barbarisam skill) and can only wear light armour types (such as hides and keather gear tier 0 and 1 types) you also lack knowledge of war so fighting the orcs is off the tables for you but can gain by killing other Nomads you are apart of a small tribe. For Gondor you have the necessary skills of a journeyman swordsman from the teachings of your father, skills to wear Heavy gear through vigarious training such as you have a Gondor armour with your families noble crest (grey iron tier 2) and your family sword (grey iron tier 2 named Uruk Bane) however your family name was tarnished and you where born into it at it's untimely plummet of prosperity and must make a name for yourself but a fate will befall upon you before you can do so. For Rohan you where born into a family of tradition towards Rohirrim way your family may not be of nobel blood but has a strong sense of honor as such they have been warriors and knights of Rohan. Your skills with the bow is equal to a Elite Gondor Bowmen and your sword outmatches any Rohan Elite as captain of the Rohan Guards to the king you must be so for five years you stood proud among your knight's however a night patrol with your men will put your skills to the test. Something like this i guess for human choice but yes i would love a LOTR game customise your own character
Talion- a brave warrior whose wife and son were killed in front of him later bound to the elven lord, banished from death, forced to fight the war against Sauron, later betrayed by the same elf and after 10 years became a Nazgul himself. One of the most tragic stories in fiction. People don't realise this becouse the game is very good but when you take a closer look you can see how sad this story is for the main protagonist
I feel Sauron predicted all of this and knew that Talion would make the choices he did. Otherwise, if he sided with the wraith Sauron would have lost. Perhaps, the only reason he didn't see his defeat was because he was locked in a fight with the Bright Lord, and assumed no else could resist the ring. After all, Frodo would have succumbed as well.
After watching the end of Shadow of war, the beginning is even more heartbreaking. Talion gives the New Ring to Shelob to save Celebrimbor. At this point, Talion doesn't need Celebrimbor for anything anymore. With the New Ring, he is as inmortal as he was in Shadow of Mordor, and he has the skill to dominate Uruks. He could have left the Elf to rot in Shelob's cave until she decided to feast on his sould, and he could have conquered all of Mordor alone. He refused to all that only to save Celebrimbor, because he saw him as his friend. Watching Celebrimbor betray Talion hurts even more if you think of that, and proves how different they are from each other. Even Nazgul Talion has a brighter heart than the so called Bright Lord himself
Oh man you're right! I didn't even think about that! They were both faced with the same choice, power vs friendship, Talion saved his friend, and Celebrimbor betrayed him! Stings now
I’m pretty sure if Talon was there to fight the dark lord I’m pretty sure they would’ve won
@@umbraghosts9043 Yeah, in fact that's the ending Shelob predicted (in one of her visions, Talion is dominating Sauron). However, that future implies that Talion never realizes how evil Celebrimbor is and helps him conquer the whole Middle Earth, which is what Shelob wanted to change
@@Alexalmo without playing the first game first, i actually really liked celebrinmor and talions dynamic. Even without knowing talion chose to save cele, His betrayal still stung so much. shelob is smart for stopping that ending where they win but man seeing talion turn into the 9 made me so sad. talion had a will only matched by sauron T.T thats saying something.
Gilmi wad right, never trust an elf
I loved Talion just as much as Aragorn as a character. We need a video game about Aragorn early years as a Ranger before the movies.
As much as Aragorn? So you hate him?
Love it
Yeah a solo Aragorn game would sell so many copies and maybe he could be with a small group of rangers that slowly get picked off by an enemy they are tracking until he is the only one (which could be why we see him all by himself in LOTR when we first see him)
Do some War in the North-ish type game with Aragorn? have my money😲
I agree, and would expand that to say that many cool Tolkien games could be made, whether solo spin-offs like for Aragorn (or the other major characters) as well as bringing back the books/movies into a modern video game using Shadow of War as quality reference! i.e. i want to play through LOTR trilogy with shadow of war like quality and similar gameplay.
He embodies the saying “You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain”
And he be the vallain, but too an hero because same hes using the ring hes foughts with the rest of his humanity tô get his revenge
@@Kuvalsk revenge and hero don’t mix normally as is seen by The Bright Lords need for domination
@@whoevencaresbra-5990 Actually, he held the armies of mordor back for decades in order for the rest of the world to prepare. He is a hero...
i was just thinking this
@@sneakcr3144 i would have loved this being acknowledged in a movie or something, like aragorn saying to one of the 9 ''You were a hero once, now you're a foe.'' and then proceeding to decapitate him with a 70 degree angle only for him to stab frodo afterwards :D
I loved Talion and his sacrifice. I thought the ending was actually a pretty cool idea. That final cutscene where he walks into the sunset was well done and felt earned. He's a brilliant character. If Middle Earth Games pop up in the future, I hope they are more like this than based on cannon.
Yeah I think I agree. It is fun to play in an alternate universe where the writers don't have to worry to much about canonical rules.
@@XPlore1 Precisely!
I think they're juggling rights around a bit these days, but the title of 'Middle Earth' before Shadow of Mordor/War suggests they wanted to do other games with completely different characters.
Oh it wasn't I always thought these games were canon?
@@galax4304 No, these games are not officially cannon in the middle earth lore. They use cannon as the base of the game, but alter events, characters and more to fit the narrative, rather than conforming to the cannon.
Never trust an elf.
Backstabbers the lot of them.
Those damn elves just like thalmur on skyrim
@@Ryzen1 i love how conected the elder scrolls and lotr world are lol
@@Ryzen1 yep I killed every elf I seen in skyrim
that's what the dwarfs say
@@king_kingdom92 There not wrong though
I think it’s very interesting that Bruz actually was right towards the beginning...”Bright Lord, Dark Lord, all the same really”, 😬😅crazy how Celebrimbor’s desire grew to take over all of middle earth. I loved the story 🙌🏼
And I there is a quote in one of the dying "scenes" I think.
"He will not stop at Mordor, even Middle-Earth won't satisfy him"
Is Shelob talking about Sauron or Celebrimor?
@@d22777 most likely both lol
It's a rule of thumb in the fantasy genre that anyone with a title like "The (adjective) Lord" is almost guaranteed to be at least somewhat evil.
shelob once said "Why does it matter? You and sauron are one after all" to celebrimbor
@@IDK-fv3hu truee
Talion is a chad, and once you realize he’s voiced by Troy Baker he’s becomes a giga chad
Magni from god of war is also voiced by Troy baker
@@antondal4370 and he voices Joel from TLOU
@@setofaro Sadly, not for the entire time on the second one.
Troy Baker makes all of his characters chad
@@minhngo9970 Yes. Yes he does.
Love how they created a brand new character and shaped him into an interesting protagonist. Came here thanks to your recent video on history channel :)
Awesome! Hope you enjoyed! :)
He does have some dead boring responses to some stuff tho
How is he interesting? He is one of the most boring and generic characters ive ever seen in a game
@@executioner_ecgbert884 that's your opinion then.
@@executioner_ecgbert884 how?
I think what happened with the new ring of power was that Celebrimbor was scarred, so to speak, from his brief time wielding the One Ring. From the DLC missions in the first game, you see that by the time Celebrimbor confronted Sauron, he was beginning to succumb to a lust for power fuelled by the One Ring, and it seemed to have a similar effect on him that the Nine Rings had on the Nazgul, preventing his soul from passing on, fundamentally changing him into a wraith.
When Celebrimbor forged his new ring, like Sauron he poured his own power and soul into it, including that scar of corruption, and the power of a wraith, the end result of said corruption. This new ring seemed to amplify those traits. So ultimately the effect was similar to the Nine, with this ring corrupting its bearer. Also, Celebrimbor seemed to have poured so much of his power into the ring that it seemed to be the master, not the other way around. Eventually he became so subjected to its will that his lust for power became insatiable.
My guess is Talion wasn't affected by it because Celebrimbor's soul was still bound to him, taking the brunt of the corruption in a sense. I worry what it might have done to him with more time. Celebrimbor in the first game states that Talion would turn into a wraith (even without one of the Nazgul's rings) if he remained in his undead state for too long.
Very cool theory! Which I will choose to believe
"Celebrimbor in the first game stated that Talion would turn into a wraith if he remained in his undead state for too long" When did he say this? May I have the exact quote, I feel like I've missed out on something?
@@an-animal-lover I think it's one of the conversations that can occur between the two when you respawn at a tower.
@@wafflingmean4477 ah, thanks
i was looking for this exact comment
Im fine with Talion truly dying. Im fine with Celebrimbor escaping.
*But god dammit don't make Eltariel the main character if there is a next game*
Edit: For all of you Eltariel lovers out there, there's a reason this comment is the most liked comment on this video in six months
I agree with your comment. I hate Eltariel.
There are no fortress left to conquer if 3rd game happens. Sauron is Dead, rings are gone and middle earth is peaceful. There might be trouble here and there but it will not spark a new war.
@@edwardmakabling418 well middle earth has a rich history so, if they can't make a game moving the story forward, they could go back and make a prequel and I am fine with that honestly.
@@mlmubaldo I was thinking, Celebrimbor being freed but missing the war so he created one and at the end totally banishes the orcs. Kind of parallel to the incomplete sequel of Lord of the rings which is the new shadow - orcs and likes just banish.
we need a game that goes back to the first age
For a game that was absolutely lore-breaking, I have to admit, it made Talion one of my favorite characters in fiction.
Believe it or not, I would like if Celebrimbor death happens in the Amazon TV show the way it did in this game (though it probably won't). I wouldn't be angry at it, making Shadow of Mordor & War canonical in the movie universe.
I really think Talion is a character Tolkien would write.
I don’t think that the show will be canon to the Peter Jackson movies, but it would be cool if they did a shoutout to the games in that way.
Brate i ti igras ovu igricu
Of course it won’t. Celebrimbor is an amazingly important figure in lore.
Calibrimbor is canon so it might happen
They should really tweak the story a bit in order to fit the cannon, more exactly, the timeline. The story and characters are too good to not include them. It is just too hard to create a better story that fits that gap than this one...and if they release a serie or movies..it would blow up
I know this game series isn’t cannon but I think it should be considered at least partially cannon. It expands on so much of Mordors Lore and has some really fascinating characters. I would love to see an adaptation of this story as a book as some kind of lost legend of middle earth
I believe each series has its own 'canon' so that they can take creative liberties. The books, movies, and games have inconsistencies with each other but tell the overall story similarly.
I don't get why the game isn't canon, there is no major discrepancy with Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings. There is some discrepancy in timelines, but hey!
At least Shadow of Mordor/War are not mediocre.
@@DrHyperionSun literally everything that happens contradicts the canon. The game might be alright but canon wise is a disaster
@@aelfwine4anarhin I don’t get what is so lore breaking?
@@tameoregano5006 wym? The whole plot of the game contradicts everything that is said in the lore, starting from the TL to the actual motivations of the plot and how it develops
He willingly sacrificed his soul and eventually will to protect everyone. What's more, he held off the ring's corruption for decades, all on his desire to keep the world safe. That is one of the greatest acts of heroic sacrifice I've ever heard of.
The lore states that once you abandon death you can never pass on. So my guess is that the Valar knew of his sacrifice for Middle Earth and when his soul is no longer bound to Sauron, he was allowed to pass on and finally rest.
He didn’t choose to abandon it. But was forced
@@santi_super_stunts2573 he put isildur's ring on
True but can you call that abandoning death as he as already dead
Technically I mean
By this point in time he was a revinent grave walker for nigh close to 20ish or so years. His life was death
@@kevind3974 he didnt abandon death in the first game, celebrimbor held him to undeath. By the end of shadow of mordor he simply put death on hold to fight Sauron, but when he had to put on Isildur's ring he lost all chances to rest
He was forced by Dark hand. Celebrimbor jumped into his body during ritual (that was when Dark hand realised he also needs to be part of the ritual as sacrifice, hence the ending fight), so he was denied death. After that he was dying against Sauron and then again when he got betrayed. In both of these he *wasnt killed* but struggling to survive, which cant be considered abandoning death.
Only time he truly reject the death is in ending of first game when Celebrimbor offers him to pass on but it was manipulative act so Talion would fight on.
You even later find out that Celebrimbor never wanted Talion to pass on in first place, as they would both perish.
I REALLY wanted him to join with his wife and son at the ending but it was still cool i guess
He did. He can now rest with his family, if you see at the ending there's his sons broken sword and the white flower he gave his wife. But I wish we could see them a bit at least, but it's a awesome game anyway.
@@Maria46823 they already passed on so he couldn’t have seen them. Ofc he will see them since all we saw at the end was just him walking into the afterlife. He wasn’t already there.
It would have been too much like gladiator
I mean, one can argue that he did, now he is free to join them
I did
Quick note, Talion’s wife’s name is Ioreth, with an I, not an L.
Yeah... haha. My bad
holy shit i had no idea
Talion is honestly my favorite character in a video game, save maybe Darth Revan. He sacrificed everything for middle earth. He was a hero. He was a legend. Even Elrond woulda been like "damn bro. You really that cool?"
Does Talion not become one of the Nazgul in the trilogy of LOTR?? I would like to think he does... undone by the very power he was trying to use to fight Sauron......"Many who live deserve death and some who have died deserve life"....I like to think he's talking about Talion and his efforts...I know the game isn't cannon as far as I know but still.
Talion is practically the Revan of Middle Earth in every way, walking the line of good and bad, cheating death, forgetting things, and there being some discussion on whether or not he’s actually canon lol.
I think Talion is more like Carth than Revan. He just a loyal soldier of Gondor that lost his family, killed the man who did it, was left by his comrade and spend the rest of his existing as protector of his home.
@@otamanvasyl9949
He's a lot more like starkiller
He's not canon because of how contradictory his games are😅
@@HaloMan-813 In what way is Starkiller contradictory?
@@otamanvasyl9949 I don't know the specifics but I just know that the wider community considera him non canon. But he's always canon to me lol
the tragedy of Talion was such a fantastic story even if it wasn't exactly canon friendly. sacrificing his soul to hold back the forces of evil and struggling against the power that he needed to wield in order to do so. a perfect send off to see that he is finally allowed to leave Mordor and pass on into the beyond listed as an unsung hero
The ending was really good. Though Celebrimdor betrayed Talion, it was Talion who still won in the end by having the gift of Arda. The “mortality” which means his soul aren’t bound to middle earth and soon will be reunited with his family in times comes. And just for thinking about it, they were both fighting to hold Sauron until a new fellowships cames to put an end to the Dark Lord. Celebrimdor took a hold of Sauron with his immortality while Nazgul Talion are doing his best to weakened out Sauron armies until the ring fully corrupted him. Talion will never be heard, his name will never be written in a song about the heroics deeds of the fellowships.
“There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after.
But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Ain’t that a bitch?”
@@dennisthechemist4413 couldn’t of said it better
Miracle of sound: shadow of the ash
I think that even if it’s not canon, the story telling and plot is very compelling and really drives you to invest into these characters, and especially at the end of shadow of war when talion is finally free, I really felt happy for his character and that he finally found his peace. The way they connect the story to the canon is pretty compelling, especially if you don’t actually know the lore, but even knowing the lore doesn’t really ruin anything for me since i actually had fun playing the game and enjoying the plot. If they somehow found a way to make this canon, I would not only like it, but would probably go nuts over it and probably invest even more time into the story they create.
Summary: I really like the story and the game and would pay for more.
Honestly the game has its issues canonically but it does fit decently with the films solely
The Nazgûl were said to be at Dol Guldur like the Hobbit films and we see Sauron become the Eye instead of his more mobile counterpart as the Necromancer
@@ItsButterBean1020 They should really tweak the story a bit in order to fit the cannon. The story and characters are too good to not include them. It is just too hard to create a better story that fits that gap than this one...and if they release a serie or movies..it would blow up
@@sneakcr3144 eh idk about that
I think it can work as a kind of “pre-sequel” for the Films (and maybe headcanon that in with the Amazon series and War in the North or something) but I definitely don’t think Tolkien’s lore should change to reflect adaptations
@@ItsButterBean1020 I was not reffering to changing tolkien's lore, but Shaow of Mordor/Shadow of War lore in order to fit Tolkien's narrative.
i honestly love talion as a character he has a good backstory and knows where to draw the line
Yeah hes awesome :)
He is fucking awesome
I want to know how ratbag react knowing talion is a ring wraith
Me too, hopefully we will have a sequel of what Talion did as a nazgul.
I like how his story kinda ties in pretty well with the main story of lord of the rings at least in the respect that it was cause of talion and his battles behind the scenes that Sauron didn’t dominate middle earth right away and that Mordor didn’t have a new cruel master in the form of celebrimbor. Talion was truly an underdog and hero in the shadows. And not to mention a new hero in the stories of middle earth and one that is welcome.
It really doesn't tie in well, it has to tear the lore apart to even work
It is cool to create new characters and relate them to canon characters.
Yeah I agree :)
Talion reminds me of Aragon. I really enjoyed playing this character across 2 games. And the way they shoved the story into Middle Earth was great! At the end i wanted more :D
Both were very similar but where Talion succumbed Aragorn did not, but then again Talion resisted the power of ring for years until becoming a Nazgûl, so in someway they were pretty similar
I think when he was walking into the sunset he was walking to the Grey Haven's so he could sail west and live in peace because of all he has done for middle earth if it wasn't for him Sauron would have invaded middle earth decades earlier and the free people would either be dead or enslaved.
His soul went to heaven which is different as grey havens. Heaven is a dimension Eru Iluvatar reserved for the spirits of race of Men and which is outside of Arda and Ea. The undying lands is a holy place for immortal races such as Elves and Ainur: Valar and Maiar and their spirits, on Arda. So Elves and Ainur are bound to Earth and universe for eternity , while Men are not. Even if a body of an Elf or Maiar was destroyed they have to wait in Mandos Hall for revival. Men spirits dont.
@@pablito4762 Yes I know that Eru has a special place for men.
However, I was talking about since he still looked alive with his weapons and the Elven structures in the distance along with the atmosphere of the area it felt like to me he was going to the Grey Havens. As technically he was a ringbearer.
For me, he deserves to live out the rest of his mortal days in the bliss of Tol Eressea. Like Frod, Sam, and Bilbo. Because of what he did for Gondor and Middle Earth.
Probably the most overpowered character in anything ever
*Laughs in DoomSlayer*
Laughs in kratos
*laughs in Dragonborn*
*Laughs in God Emperor of Mankind*
Laughs in master chief
Well, this is one of the best instalments for an non-cannon story. This one is more Warmongery and filled with action.
"BUILD ME AN ARMY WORTHY OF MORDOR!"
Should we call it the "Shadow Series."
yes
Talion’s story was so… tragic. One of my favorite characters and storylines in video game history for me. We need a sequel to these games with maybe Baranor exploring the East. I think that’d be tight
I want a game about Talion in the years as a ring wraith
I want a game where you’re the villain
Talion is my favorite Middle-earth character. Between his amazing story, skills, weaponry and Troy Baker’s phenomenal voice acting skills, there is no character better.
Just came from your video on History of Middle Earth, you're one of my favorite youtube channels and I can't wait to see more here as well!
Awesome! Thank you! :D
@@XPlore1 Agreed! Love your content mate
Saddest part is when you load into shadow of war and hear talion say no war should be fought alone
His story deserves to be canon.
I love talion he is my one of my favorite video games characters
If they ever do a sequel to Shadow of War, i hope we get to explore the eastern part of middle earth, that part barely gets touched by Tolkien, so they can pretty much go wild lorewise there. Maybe we can finaly meet the Blue Wizards!
Or war of orcs and Dwarfs or wars of beleriand
The thing about a sequel is what would be the plot? Who would be the villain? We already saw Sauron’s defeat. We already saw the Nazgûl be freed. What would happen next?
Yeah a sequel of desolation of mordor or something should be made
@@senatorstevenarmstrong9821 The origin of the Ring war in the north around Rhovanion with the Nazgul Khamul and Mouth of Sauron being the main antagonists. I want to see how that went in the lore.
@@Starsteam1 ohh okay
guys... i just spent a literal hour explaining this to my girlfriend and she listened the whole time. she even teared up a little at the end (i wept lol). she said it was so epic.
ive won.
Talion was an amazing character, Glad he got the ending that he deserved.
This story will be miles better than Amazons new show. Their respect for tolkiens world building and lore is apparent in every aspect of the story.
If they do a new game it should start with talion walking towards the light but then a black smoke surrounds him and celebrimbor reveals himself
"Hey, I'm sorry I betrayed you, can we still be friends?"
@@herrdoctor2895 imagine just pops up like "so I left u for dead but we good right?"
Tallion is the most will written character probably in game history
He reminds me of starkiller. He is the Starkiller of Middle earth and I love it. I love it.
They should make a game where you play as a orc
That'd be fucking awesome
@@kingpickle413 yeah and like you pick what tribe you can be in and stuff.
@@maxxcatz2205 or you could play as the olog ranger, and the 'wraith' would be ratbag
@@HamStudios Wait hold on that’s a good idea
Genuis
I was deeply connected with this man.
Be at peace brother
Tallon sacrificed everything just so morder could have a chance once he was gone, he took out near every single smark orc so they couldn't become a major force. One of the only characters I've ever cried for
I want Celebrimbor's voice for all eternity
Who dosent?
man the heart-strings that this series tugs on are insane...not just the story but also the loss you go through when losing your favorite captains that you bond with over time.....I miss you so much Zathra Giggles 😭😭😭😭😭
I just stumbled upon this and im already in love with this channel!
Glad you enjoy it! :D
Didn't like the mispronunciation of Ioreth and Dirhael, but this all in all is a good brief summary. Long live the the Gravewalker.
celebrimbor was corrupted by his own ring wat
Apparently, forging the ring took something crucial from him, it allowed him to become corrupted.
Celebrimbor’s ring was free of Sauron’s corruption not celebrimbor’s desire to dominate. When he says “this one is pure” you later understand it
@@kaanpercin1332 He pured most of his soul into it
@@kaanpercin1332 I think the take away from this, and one of the reasons its so believable as something Tolkien would write, is that with the ability to achieve great power that corrupts even the purest of beliefs. I'd even say that Celembrimbor is gandalf if he had taken the one ring. Celembrimbor wanted peace too, but then power corrupted him.
12:04 Anyone else noticed the white flower near Talion’s sword? Its the same one Carnan showed him during one of the cutscenes. Nice detail.
@wungielposting3160 , it’s also the same flower that Talion gave Ioreth at the beginning of the first game. It’s known as Niphredil I believe. Nice detail, I agree.
Man i have played and finished both games and i would really love if a talion hbo show or series of movies (bc i don't think his story can be told in only one) would be announced. Such an interesting character.
It is a lot to ask for but I would really like a LOTR game similar to Shadow of Mordor/War where you can create a custom character. The ability to choose race, class, hair color, etc., and create your own character while embarking on a journey in Middle Earth would be super awesome. I do like Talion and these are solid games.
Yes
The Shadow of Mordor/ War games are the most badass and epic stories in Lotr. I hope they make movies and make him canon, it would be hype. Im just glad Talion was able to be with his family again after all that suffering he went through. Its honestly insane how he was a normal human, turned wraith, human with a ring, then a Nazgul, then he finally gets piece. The guy literally did so much for Mordor, his story was epic and tragic but at least he finally found piece and was able to see his family again. They could do a sequel I guess with celebrimbor and Ezariel, which would be great. These games are honestly underrated even though they sold well and did well its just I feel it doesnt get the credit it deserves.
I hope it gets a sequel. Eltariel and Celebrimbor are great characters. This will be after the OG Lotr Trilogy which will be awesome. It would be cool to see characters from the films in the game.
Thank you for uploading! Very helpful. Quite an unusual story & protagonist ...
To those fearing Eltariel having a role in Shadow of Mordor 3, remember who is writing this. They can make someone you don't know or like into someone you love again if you give them the chance. And don't forget that the focus could be entirely on Celebrimbor.
Hello I never knew I would see you here
Or just make a new character. That wouldn’t be bad if they made him a good protagonist.
Or they would do the story back when celebrimbor was betrayed
Talion: the truth, the light, an ally to good, the white knight, a hero, a pure hearted ranger and the answer to those who cry out for peace.
11:47
It's funny how he appears in the movie in the scene when Mount Doom explodes.
Just came over from your shadow of war video and really looking forward to more content on both channel’s
Thank you so much! :D
I am so grateful for this game, talion was a great character, i wish we could see him somewhere else else in a serie or something
Highly underrated gem of a game IMO
60 years he held back the dark lord’s forces before becoming a nazgul, 60 years of sheer will and determination to resist the ring for that long.
Talion held back the forces of darkness alone for years against an army of angry orks
Im just now getting into the middle earth series so thank you for this video :)
Such a good story. Such a good game.
Talion and the Shadow of ... games were really cool and it was quiet sad how it ended. I hope there will be some day a new game were we can play as Nazgul Talion, hunting Frodo and conquer Middleearth
Yes awesome
This game has made me want to learn elf, and black speech.
I love talion, his journey as a character helps me in my own life somehow, since he could carry on despite everything and still be more human and caring than almost anyone inspires me to keep going
I loved talion as I character and I'm really annoyed that he most likely won't be in other games
Holy Shit this needs to be made into a high budget show or a saga of movies, this is so awesome!
Shadow of Mordor is so well made that you can easily defeat basically any orc you come across except the lucky few imune to everything and kill you in one hit, but every orc has like two captains around it, you kill one and you end up being owned by 6 captains.
he almost started laughing when he said saruon cut elterial ring finger off lmao
I love Talion, when I beat the fame my heart sunk. I was happy with the game and the characters in it. I'm currently playing on the hardest difficulty in the game
One thing to note is that in Shadow of Mordor, Talion states he is a Northerner. He did not seem to hold Gondor in high esteem, and I don't recall anything in the lore stating he was born in Minas Ithil. It was so jarring when I finished SoM and moved to Shadow of War and suddenly Talion is all about helping Gondor, saving Gondor, reescuing Gondorians...where was all that patriotic spirit in the old game?
Btw, they did Celebrimbor dirty. In SoM he wished to pass on and leave Middle Earth behind yet in SoW they made it seem like it was always his plan to supplant Sauron and conquer Middle Earth. Such character assassination...
I used to played mordor but I wanted to try war
You on PS4?
Definitely try it it's really goood
Also the baranor dlc is amazing buy it!
Talion is such a badass! he needs his own movies!
I've watched every Lotr And the hobbit
Thus game makes the story more sense
Glad to see so many people loved Talion as much as I did 🐐🐐🐐
If we get a sequel I want to play Talion again and not Eltariel, I refuse to play the dlc because I can't stand the fact that she and Celebrimbor betrayed him.
Well bad news for you then
I really liked Talion, tbh i thought his character could use a bit more depth, but i really loved what he stood for and his sacrifice at the end of SOW
As a huge Tolkien fan, I love these games. Even if they take some liberties with the lore, entertainment is what matters.
I love this video, many other channels covering the topic wrongfully assume talion is driven by revenge throught the story, (which is never stated or even hinted at in the story) and i apreciate you keeping it real. Talion was driven by the plot that needed him, not vengance
What if he was in the lord of the rings lore
Can someone do a video on this
Remember in the the lord of the ring, the battle for minas tirith where they are counting orc death ?
- I m at 49 !
-me 57.
Casually talion:
308651 orcs killed for me
The character is great but the games were a bit repetitive.
I believe I would have rather enjoyed this game more if it offered the chance to use character skins from the Peter Jackson adaptations, for the sake of variety. I would have preferred if I could choose to simply walk into Mordor (pun intended) as Aragorn, Faramir, or Gandalf.
Ohh man, Talion has such an awesome character!
Yesssss
I want to play as an Uruk of my own design and reunite Mordor after the fall of the dark lord. Maybe fighting against Eltariel and Celebrimbor who are trying to dominate Mordor again. Power to the Orks!
"Ranger" being a skill set for Tolkien's universe makes so much sense than rangers just being Numenorian
I personally love these games and Talion especial so much so that I consider them canon to the movies, and while I would love more talion his story is over and he should be left to rest, that said a game about him before his original death or a game that takes place exclusively during the end game shadow wars would be amazing and I would pre-order those things the moment they were announced.
I want a game where you can make your own character.
Same here!! That would be awesome!
Then you get a realy SHALLOW character if any character at all.
Without backstory,origin and no direction what so ever.
You woud sacrifice for customized look over overall ingame depth of a character.
I woud always go for a already set character then a shallow look i woud creative without any direction over it. (prime example is bethesda games).
It's simply doesnt work that way.
@@vuk030 thats true
Yeah and for back ground story choose like DA Origins (Love that game)
small example the race of a Human can choose to be of Gondor, Rohan, Rangers or a Nomad (Outcast)
Obviously the Nomad would make your game playthrough difficult your combat skills is lack luster (swords manship you are crappy and unable to wield properly so you use barbarisam skill) and can only wear light armour types (such as hides and keather gear tier 0 and 1 types) you also lack knowledge of war so fighting the orcs is off the tables for you but can gain by killing other Nomads you are apart of a small tribe.
For Gondor you have the necessary skills of a journeyman swordsman from the teachings of your father, skills to wear Heavy gear through vigarious training such as you have a Gondor armour with your families noble crest (grey iron tier 2) and your family sword (grey iron tier 2 named Uruk Bane) however your family name was tarnished and you where born into it at it's untimely plummet of prosperity and must make a name for yourself but a fate will befall upon you before you can do so.
For Rohan you where born into a family of tradition towards Rohirrim way your family may not be of nobel blood but has a strong sense of honor as such they have been warriors and knights of Rohan. Your skills with the bow is equal to a Elite Gondor Bowmen and your sword outmatches any Rohan Elite as captain of the Rohan Guards to the king you must be so for five years you stood proud among your knight's however a night patrol with your men will put your skills to the test.
Something like this i guess for human choice but yes i would love a LOTR game customise your own character
@@AlukardTheDeathknight Humans could also be Harad or Easterling if you want to spice things up.
Talion- a brave warrior whose wife and son were killed in front of him later bound to the elven lord, banished from death, forced to fight the war against Sauron, later betrayed by the same elf and after 10 years became a Nazgul himself. One of the most tragic stories in fiction. People don't realise this becouse the game is very good but when you take a closer look you can see how sad this story is for the main protagonist
I didn't want to see talion at peace. I wanted to see nazgul talion for ever.
Many Decades Later... he succumbs DECADES what a chad
One of my favourite channels now making one of my favourite video types.....it's a good day :)
Glad you think so! :D
Geralt of rivia:meh
Talon:WOW
When I first started playing shadow of war I had no clue it was related to lord of the rings
I feel Sauron predicted all of this and knew that Talion would make the choices he did. Otherwise, if he sided with the wraith Sauron would have lost. Perhaps, the only reason he didn't see his defeat was because he was locked in a fight with the Bright Lord, and assumed no else could resist the ring. After all, Frodo would have succumbed as well.