I think that Rarran's absolutely right about Mind Control Tech. Demon Hunter was the first NEW class they ever added, and it got a lot of absent players to return to the game. I think they wanted to avoid those player's thinking "Hey this is pretty fun, why did I put this game down again?" and then getting MC Teched and going "Oh yeah, THAT'S why."
@@32Singder to be fair, sorceror apprentice was added somewhat later, so mana wyrm coin mana wyrm still is the classic. Yours is likely the updated version, that put the nail in the coffing for it and made them ban the card.
I keep calling 'Easy, Sylvanas was nerfed, because you used to play it with brawl in the same turn!' and I was suprised that nerf was not mentioned here. Then I checked wiki, Sylvanas was nerfed in closed beta, over 10 years ago... I feel old now :(
20:52 CGB is truly a Blue player. Man is thinking with his gut and his mind, but he's gotta play Red for this one and think using his heart. There's no thought behind Blade Flurry, you fool! No gut instinct; no reason can solve this card! There's nothing there but RAW EMOTION. Must hit face TWICE. After they nerfed it to only hit enemy minions, then it became a thinking-man's card. But they did also nerf the cost so it just died.... LOL
@@darkumineru1681 honestly i think the problem is its comparison to fan of knives and the rogue identity. If blade flurry is 3 mana then you pretty much never play fan of knives because in miracle rogue you dont need the extra draw and paying 1 mana with prep to board clear is very strong especially in the class that they specifically DONT want board wipes in, and especially in the deck that can just refuel the hand again and again and again, being able to do huge board clears while also refilling the hand reaches very similar to starving buzzard kind of vibes. I do wonder though what if they kept the face damage but kept it at 4 or maybe even 5 mana as like a versatile finisher OR a board clear.
I remember Spellbreaker getting hall of famed because it was limiting design options for silence cards. 4 mana 4/3 neutral silence was very good and it was played a lot. But then the next year they added Royal Librarian which was just a better Spellbreaker.
I remember when they nerfed owl to 3 with no stat buff, making it ao unplayable that people instead played the 4 mana one with semi decent stats. And then THAT gets hof'ed. Maybe they just didn't like silence.
For the decks where a dumb neutral silence matters, a 3/4 is a lot worse than a 4/3. They also tested out a meta without a silence and it didn't go well, so they realized they needed some back. And yes, royal is NOW a 4/4, but wasn't always.
I think the difference was Spellbreaker was in the classic set which at the time didn't rotate while Librarian was in a rotating set so was fine to be stronger.
Ok, I looked at both, and I'm not really convinced, but like not because it's like, obviously not one or another, but because both are pretty much the same, what's the main difference that justify this? The only that I could spot was the beard, Maly seems to have a beard while Kaly has crystals, although you could easily argue that's a artistic liberty, it doesn't fundamentally change the characteristic... althouh if you just say the original art was said to be Kaly then yeah I could believe it.
If I remember it correctly they did it because there was literally no art of Malygos around and they were both just massive blue dragons so it really didn't matter.
@@Cuestrupaster WoW had a paper tcg before HS even came out and that same art was used for Kalecgos in it. HS lifted a lot of pieces of art from that game, especially for the early sets, but often changed who or what they depicted in the cards.
I'm surprised CGB did not catch on to the core set explanation as magic did the same thing for a long time. Core set 2011, core set 2012 etc which did the same thing of reprinting old cards so they can be legal in standard
I think it's slightly different, since Magic's Core sets were always brand new set releases, while HS's core set is one continuous set that switches a few cards over time. It's functually close enough, but I can see the differences being confusing.
Hes actually the best guest on these videos across Rarran, his, and Cimoo's channel because he's actually trying to learn the games and it's awesome watching his mind work.
Wouldn't this be pretty straightforward? I'd say most effects in Hearthstone _can_ be done in MTG; they just aren't for gameplay reasons. For instance, you absolutely _can_ put "target creature gains +2/+2" in an effect, and that would apply permanently; it's just that MTG usually does counters instead for memory reasons.
Yeah idk why he thinks he would like PO when it was most egregious in oonga oonga mono red zoolock where you just explode from PO+PO+Soulfire+Soulfire (didn't discard it from the first one because you are built different).
I think for Mind Control Tech, they probably just came to the conclusion that it's a card that punishes you for breaking a rule that you would otherwise have no idea is a rule. It's a "gotcha" whose only solution is to already know that there is a gotcha. Other than to play around board clears, there's no reason to think that playing a 4th dude is taking a risk. Also, since it's random, it's just extra infuriating when you go from can't lose instantly to can't win, just because they stole the one minion that mattered. Also, even if you know about it, it's specifically punishes you for doing something you want to be doing, building out your board. "I guess I can't keep having fun. Gotta play around Mind Control Tech." Kind of funny when you see if the first few times, but what a bummer of a card to keep around forever.
It was because people felt like they were being punished for winning. "I got ahead on board by making good decisions, now you get rewarded for making worse decisions than I did."
People are fine with board clears, but for some reason, having stuff stolen feels worse lol. I love that card. Having to play around cards is pretty much how the game works lol, control is fun. It just feels awful lol.
@esscate and Yogg, before that. Design philosophies change, so do the design team. The devs are also aware that people complain less about problematic class cards than about feels bad neutrals, which is probably why Yogg got hit so much quicker and more effectively than Reshka (though still not enough).
Yeah mctech was so damn frustrating to play against especially if devs ever wanted to push a token strategy that floods the board then out come the mctechs in every deck since it's neutral. People also despised the card in arena, not that arena means much.
Sylvanas is almost exactly a card called Keiga, the Tide Star. It's a 6 mana 5/5 blue dragon with Flying, and when it dies you gain control of target creature.
I mean Sylvanas was worse because it wasn't evasive at all and the minion you get is random. It was still a staple in every single deck to the point where much much later they released a retrain of her that had a much more conditional effect and she still saw play in most decks.
@@Noobie2k7 Evasion is weird to compare MTG to HS since sylvanas if no taunt can just go face like every other minion that isn't freshly summoned without charge or rush. It's also far different in the context of HS where you can attack minions whereas in MTG the opponent has to choose to block. Sylvanas trading with something to steal their best minion was a common play pattern, keiga when it attacks the opponent can simply take 5.
Starving Buzard went to 2 mana again when they unnerfed bunch of wild cards for the first time and it single handedly made beast hunter a tier 2 deck in wild
Non-HS player here, won't Power Overwhelming also be good for proactively triggering Deathrattle stuff? Or is it only true in theory, but in practice it just doesn't come up?
ye its debetable. warlock has been using it to proc deathrattles for long time but it really never was the main focus of the card or the archetype. its more like a nice bonus when it works
Yes, Warlocks used it on their eggs to trade and then trigger their deathrattle or steal the minion with Sylvanas for big tempo board swings. They also used it with "Destroy minion, deal its attack as AoE" card to clear enemy board. And they also used it as burst with Leroy. There was also a card that ate friendly minions and took their stats, that allowed to bypass the drawback of 1-turn buff. The big flexibility and utility of this card is why it was so widely played in most Warlock decks in the first years of HS and the reason for its removal. The only Warlock deck that I do not remember seeing this was Malygos Warlock, as it only had synergies with AoE spell there.
Having been around at the time, I absolutely guarantee that MC Tech died just because people were tired of it. Playing around MC Tech meant just never fully developing your board, which is... just not fun. It came out *just often enough* that playing that fourth minion was terrifying, and yet was rare enough that usually you were playing around it for nothing; the card was just that scarring when it hit.
I liked it, back in the day, it felt like you are controlling something, your decisions mattered more. I haven't played classic Hearthstone in years but it was already bad enough 5+ years ago when they introduced battlegrounds. I would only come back if all cards that create other cards were banned. And since it felt like they are only releasing such cards back in 2019, I imagine that didn't stop too much.
dude the commander game you did was amazingsuper fun!! i hope i can see you cimo and cgb and roxy next time! i mean i love crim playstyle and he is a really cool dude but i was missing cimo in that game!
I swear I’m being mandela effected with regards to the year of the Phoenix hall of fame, I swear I even half recall a specific blurb they gave for acolyte of pain. But I can’t find it so I guess it didn’t happen.
Disregarding that, I’m pretty sure the idea behind it was to weed out cards that tend to be recurring problems for some reason or another. Leeroy for otks and burst wombo combos, mountain giants for coming down too early (it wasn’t that long after lpg and conjurer’s calling was abusing it in mage), MC tech for being generally annoying (I’m pretty sure it was consistently being ran in quest shaman at the time), acolyte of pain for being too good of a neutral draw tool mainly in warrior, and I guess spellbreaker cause they didn’t want to worry about silence killing off whatever cool payoff they’d print later (like a rattlegore I’d guess)
Pretty sure acolyte of pain got HoF'ed because it was among the best card draw regardless of class generally speaking and in other classes would be draw 2-3 cards, which was above rate for 3 mana that also had a body attached to affect the board. While not a HS designer Kibler commented on it saying a lot of decks resorted to acolyte to get more card draw and he has designed for many card games over the years so he knows bad design better than the average player.
I think the Ice Lance HoF was absolutely justified in the context of the time. No matter what mage deck you wanted to play, it was almost mandatory to include 2x frost bolt and 2x ice lance for the 14 burst. And if you're already doing that, well now you should probably include 2x fireball too, and since you have cheap spells and burn, you should play Antonidas, and . . . whoops, you made freeze mage. Ice Lance was the best burn spell in the whole game. It's still ubiquitous in wild. It couldn't stick around forever. Also, back then, I played a mage deck that was aggro or tempo in every matchup except against Priest. Priest couldn't heal above 30, so you would just assemble a 30-damage combo and kill them from hand. Priest was supposed to counter tempo burn decks, but I had a 100% win rate in that matchup despite being generally terrible at the game. It really was too good. EDIT: The combo was 2x apprentice, Thalnos, 2x frost bolt, 2x ice lance, 2x roaring torch, fireball for 39. It was pretty easy to get all of that minus one piece and still do over 30. The same deck that could do that could also win on turn 3 against other classes with mana wyrms and apprentices. TURN 3.
@@tomscorpion6288 Because the power level in wild is extremely high. The overwhelming majority of cards are not viable in wild. Also, the entire point of wild is that you can play with all kinds of wacky old cards. It's the same reason Black Lotus is still legal in Vintage, except you don't have to pay a gajillion dollars to get two copies of Ice Lance.
Murloc Warleader got me thinking there should be a 2 mana "Removal" spell for Shamans that: *Discover*, Targeted creature turns into the chosen *Murlock* But when played in a Shaman deck, they either are removing a threat/taunt, or, trying to summon a War Leader on your already full board. Sounds appropriate as hell.
The original version is, but there's a different card of Sylvanas with a less powerful version of her effect that was made later where she's wearing her Shadowlands armor that's still normally playable. Many characters get multiple cards or even hero replacement skins based on their Warcraft lore, so you can't always go by a singular one to know how they're represented in Hearthstone.
@@LittlepipMLPless powerful? thats heavily debetable i really cant think of a single way its less powerful than some occasional deathrattle synergy. battlecry mind control is just so much better than deathrattle even if its infuse
38:52 obviously I don't blame him for not knowing about stuff like unleash but it is fascinating to me that he talks about starving buzzard as if it's a card you play on turn 2, and not a card you hold until you can play it with something else.
He also didnt mention UTH has charge If hunter draws a spell like Hunter's mark (1 mana removal is crazy) or Animal companion (Leok or Huffer) could be potencial lethal 2/3 of the time
I think a lesson that needs to be learned about evaluating hearthstone cards is that, because you always get mana each turn, you don't have to always evaluate a card "on curve" because more often than not they are played in the mid-game or late-game combined with another card to get the value immediately instead of having to untap with it.
My favourite Disney Land interaction is maxed out sapphire spell stone, brukan quest line so your spells cast twice, malygos, then the nuke of all lightning bolt
I believe Mind Control Tech was Hall-Of-Famed for limiting the board space and being a card you always had to think about. You play 4 minions on board (even in a meta-game where MCT wasn't that prevalent anymore) and you always had that "please don't be running MCT" feeling in the back of your head because you know if it comes down they might steal the huge fun minion you put down and leave you with lesser card, very tilting lol.
IMO MCT had the same issue as old BGH. It had decent enough stats to be played just as a minion without the effect, if you find out your opponent will likely not devellop a board with 4 minions. So you get a card that is ridiculously strong as a tech card, but there is no real downside for putting it in your deck, if the tech doesn't apply. That said they actually had a lot to work with to deal with that as they could just have lowered MCTs stats to 2/2. It would still have worked as tech, but you wouldn't want to play the card without the effect hitting, so in case you play against something like freeze mage that doesn't have lots of minions on board, you're adding a brick to your deck.
I’ve played quite a few card games over the past 12 years or so, and freeze mage is still my favorite deck out of any card game. I had a BLAST piloting that deck
Hall of Fame isn't about design space, it's " do people need to give us less money because they already have this card?" Just like literally every single hearthstone decision.
M giant and Mc tech could probably be attributed to the same as sylvanas or azure drake. They were in every control deck, it was another card you were worried bout or played round, and it was just their time to go. I never realized they didn't say anything bout why they left.
The old Blade flurry allowed rogues to board wipe taunts for only 2 mana AND still go face, then equip/create/buff another big weapon and hit twice in the same turn... freaking busted
When Rarran talks about how MCTech was nerfed so returning players can feel good, I can't stop thinking how I returned to the game after 1.5 years, found that almost all my decks were broken because of nerfs card removals. That felt horrible
CGB said “someone loves these creepy little weirdos” and that really resonated with me cause I still make murloc noises at my girlfriend as a form of communication after playing hearthstone for 10 years and loving murlocs the entire time
i stopped playing hearthstone before mind control tech was hall of famed so i don't know about standard constructed, but during the time i played, in arena specifically, it was the most frustrating card in the world and im glad they shot it.
Well, he's not 100% wrong on them caring about Wild. They do nerf the most egregious stuff that comes there, but not much else. Just the most gamebreaking combos. They don't, and also can't, really care about keeping different archetypes viable. Hearing him call Blade Flurry Blade Fury like a dozen times was slowly driving me insane. Also, we do have Immune, which makes the target unable to be targeted by enemies and cannot take damage. It is not something you can put on a minion permanently in general. The one card that does this also destroys your deck and it's 10 mana. As for what the point of Hall of Fame was, it was, in no small part, to take out the overplayed cards, that they also can't really nerf, or really don't want to. You can't mention Unleash the Hounds without also mention that they had **charge**.
MC tech was hall of famed purely because of arena, at that point in time it was long passed being playable in standard due to how fast the game was, but in arena, especially with 'lower skilled' players, it caused so many hate threads on the forum blizzard was probably sick and tired of having to justify why the card was fine.
Power Overwhelming does limit a lot of design space At worst is one mana deals 4 damage and synergises with the Hero Power. At best... OTK potencial, increase tempo, pumps more damage for aggro decks, very good with lifesteal/deathrattle minions... this card would be an auto include in every warlock deck
A good idea for a hearthstone format I don’t think you’ve done is playing only with an element (ex: you create a deck that only includes fire cards or spells or like shadow cards or spells or nature etc…)
azure drake was used in close to all decks i can remember way back if you had any good spells rouge was able to use fan of knifes mage had a lot of them paladin lets you use consecrate for more damage warlock had some great use of it druid loved it with swipe and was a draw so it was really just a question of "is there ANY better 5 drops" and not a single one was, and if there was it was normally Legendary's so really easy to just throw azure drake in too has single or 2x has it was just that universal it was scary to leave up felt great/never bad to drop down when it was hall of fame it was really opening the 5 cost slot to more cards and more spell damage was opened up too
My theory for removing mountain giant, probably another case of «please play new decks, you’ve only played handlock for so long» and mc tech is such a needlessly punishing card. It’s like someone else pointed out here in the comment section, it’s an arbitrary gotcha whose only counterplay is to NOT play cards. That’s not fun.
...Spellbreaker got HoF'd? WHY? Ok, its a decently stated silence, especially in the days where Ironbeak Owl costs 3, but it's not like decks were running a dedicated silence minion (at least by the time I left HS) for the effect.
i do wonder if there was some sort of midrange demon hunter that used mountain giant that was too strong in play testing and thats why they famed it. due to the very affordable on curve draw into skull, letting you fill your hand than just do a huge dump on turn 5. that being said games were usually over on turn 5 anyways so its not really a valid reason.
I always had the feeling MCT was Hall-of-Famed because the highrolls were too good, as HS devs changed their design philosophy over these years, such plays were often deemed as 'bad feeling', and I think that was a factor for MCT. Might've also been to help promote DH I guess, day 1 DH would have wide boards... if you survived that long.
Bazaar stremar extraordinaire Rarran dips his toes into variety content and discusses HS
Toes
@@namelessshadow7748 Feets tho?
Rarran can always bazaar streamar my extraordinaire
I think that Rarran's absolutely right about Mind Control Tech. Demon Hunter was the first NEW class they ever added, and it got a lot of absent players to return to the game. I think they wanted to avoid those player's thinking "Hey this is pretty fun, why did I put this game down again?" and then getting MC Teched and going "Oh yeah, THAT'S why."
Rarran just letting CBG call it blade fury.
He is just evil and wicked like that
like the powerful nine
He is the engagement farming king
Considering he is the king of mispronouncing names, it would be very hypocritical for him to call out others
You think Rarran reads cards? He thought it was Blade Fury too until he read the script
37:04 the classic mana wyrm, coin, mana wyrm into opponent ff'ing on turn 1 lmao
mana wyrm into turn two mana wyrm coin sorcerer apprentice mirror image arcane missiles
@@32Singder to be fair, sorceror apprentice was added somewhat later, so mana wyrm coin mana wyrm still is the classic. Yours is likely the updated version, that put the nail in the coffing for it and made them ban the card.
@@achimsinn6189Sorc Apprentice is also in classic.
@@achimsinn6189 sorry im not sure i understand, SA was also apart of the classic set same as mana wyrm
am i tripping or didnt mana wyrm go to 1 mana 1/2 instead?
I keep calling 'Easy, Sylvanas was nerfed, because you used to play it with brawl in the same turn!' and I was suprised that nerf was not mentioned here. Then I checked wiki, Sylvanas was nerfed in closed beta, over 10 years ago... I feel old now :(
OMG, it would cost FIVE!? Madness!
I blame Thaurissan for all the times I've heard a caster say "Sylvanas Brawl"
Yeah I still used it with brawl, either with coin or thaurissan and it was glorious. Probably my favorite combo in all of HS history
That was closed beta?? 👴
Was it not you choose the minion you would steal before nerf?
20:52
CGB is truly a Blue player. Man is thinking with his gut and his mind, but he's gotta play Red for this one and think using his heart.
There's no thought behind Blade Flurry, you fool! No gut instinct; no reason can solve this card! There's nothing there but RAW EMOTION. Must hit face TWICE. After they nerfed it to only hit enemy minions, then it became a thinking-man's card. But they did also nerf the cost so it just died.... LOL
Was sad too has 3 cost can't hit face might have seen play ;(
@@darkumineru1681 honestly i think the problem is its comparison to fan of knives and the rogue identity. If blade flurry is 3 mana then you pretty much never play fan of knives because in miracle rogue you dont need the extra draw and paying 1 mana with prep to board clear is very strong especially in the class that they specifically DONT want board wipes in, and especially in the deck that can just refuel the hand again and again and again, being able to do huge board clears while also refilling the hand reaches very similar to starving buzzard kind of vibes. I do wonder though what if they kept the face damage but kept it at 4 or maybe even 5 mana as like a versatile finisher OR a board clear.
CGB + Rarran is an instaclick 😄
i love watching CGB... on other channels, unfortunately.
@@masansr i just dont like watching CGB's magic stuff, but i like when he's on other channels, even still playing magic
@@GraydenKC Well you phrased that very.. unfortunately.
Oh god. Classic blade flurry, forgot it went face. Imagine how nuts that would be now.
Probably not very, to be honest? Not fast enough for wild, and not enough stuff for weapon rogue to get traction in standard.
Quite scary in wild tbh, not that much in standard
I mean it gives post-nerf kingsbane some kind of win condition
It probably wouldn’t see play in today’s game. The game is a little too fast and/or too resilient to damage for pre-nerfed Blade Flurry to see play.
@selectivepontification8766 it's had a win condition several times over the last few years; going face.
I remember Spellbreaker getting hall of famed because it was limiting design options for silence cards. 4 mana 4/3 neutral silence was very good and it was played a lot. But then the next year they added Royal Librarian which was just a better Spellbreaker.
I remember when they nerfed owl to 3 with no stat buff, making it ao unplayable that people instead played the 4 mana one with semi decent stats. And then THAT gets hof'ed. Maybe they just didn't like silence.
For the decks where a dumb neutral silence matters, a 3/4 is a lot worse than a 4/3. They also tested out a meta without a silence and it didn't go well, so they realized they needed some back.
And yes, royal is NOW a 4/4, but wasn't always.
I think the difference was Spellbreaker was in the classic set which at the time didn't rotate while Librarian was in a rotating set so was fine to be stronger.
3:13 CGB pulling out the Blue's Clues notebook. You love to see it
Fun fact for CGB: The art for Malygos actually depicts his successor, Kalecgos
Ok, I looked at both, and I'm not really convinced, but like not because it's like, obviously not one or another, but because both are pretty much the same, what's the main difference that justify this? The only that I could spot was the beard, Maly seems to have a beard while Kaly has crystals, although you could easily argue that's a artistic liberty, it doesn't fundamentally change the characteristic... althouh if you just say the original art was said to be Kaly then yeah I could believe it.
If I remember it correctly they did it because there was literally no art of Malygos around and they were both just massive blue dragons so it really didn't matter.
@@Cuestrupasterthe devs admitted it themselves, it’s the art for like it’s card in the original card game
@@Cuestrupaster WoW had a paper tcg before HS even came out and that same art was used for Kalecgos in it. HS lifted a lot of pieces of art from that game, especially for the early sets, but often changed who or what they depicted in the cards.
@@MrMarnel got it
I'm surprised CGB did not catch on to the core set explanation as magic did the same thing for a long time. Core set 2011, core set 2012 etc which did the same thing of reprinting old cards so they can be legal in standard
Isn't it the same thing as what foundations is right now?
I think it's slightly different, since Magic's Core sets were always brand new set releases, while HS's core set is one continuous set that switches a few cards over time. It's functually close enough, but I can see the differences being confusing.
Well, Core set is also just free.
@@StrykerZZZ Fundations printed new cards, old Core Sets were only reprints
Started binge watching this type of content this week. CGB is an absolute treasure of a human. Keep up the good work guys!
Hes actually the best guest on these videos across Rarran, his, and Cimoo's channel because he's actually trying to learn the games and it's awesome watching his mind work.
@ I actually know nothing about yugioh or magic, but I watch him and Cimo talk about it because they’re funny and genuinely interesting. Lol
@Snaxarus 100%, their friendship that's evolved across the videos is so wholesome.
Rarran, I would totally watch you and CGB convert beloved hearthstone cards to mtg cards.
And play them, too, for the best proxy cards, are from a different game.
Wouldn't this be pretty straightforward? I'd say most effects in Hearthstone _can_ be done in MTG; they just aren't for gameplay reasons. For instance, you absolutely _can_ put "target creature gains +2/+2" in an effect, and that would apply permanently; it's just that MTG usually does counters instead for memory reasons.
cgb and rarran back again? just mesa’d all over my falcon
i love when she mesas my falcon till i rarran
power overwhelning was such a fun card. super versatile. trade, get lethal, get a big minion with stat devourer, board clear with shadowflame..
CGB would come to hate Power Overwhelming if he played the game for a year before it got removed especially with pre-nerf Leeroy.
Yeah idk why he thinks he would like PO when it was most egregious in oonga oonga mono red zoolock where you just explode from PO+PO+Soulfire+Soulfire (didn't discard it from the first one because you are built different).
I think for Mind Control Tech, they probably just came to the conclusion that it's a card that punishes you for breaking a rule that you would otherwise have no idea is a rule. It's a "gotcha" whose only solution is to already know that there is a gotcha. Other than to play around board clears, there's no reason to think that playing a 4th dude is taking a risk. Also, since it's random, it's just extra infuriating when you go from can't lose instantly to can't win, just because they stole the one minion that mattered.
Also, even if you know about it, it's specifically punishes you for doing something you want to be doing, building out your board. "I guess I can't keep having fun. Gotta play around Mind Control Tech." Kind of funny when you see if the first few times, but what a bummer of a card to keep around forever.
It was because people felt like they were being punished for winning.
"I got ahead on board by making good decisions, now you get rewarded for making worse decisions than I did."
People are fine with board clears, but for some reason, having stuff stolen feels worse lol. I love that card.
Having to play around cards is pretty much how the game works lol, control is fun.
It just feels awful lol.
@@YMasterS Then they print reska, that does the same thing without being sble to play around it
@esscate and Yogg, before that. Design philosophies change, so do the design team. The devs are also aware that people complain less about problematic class cards than about feels bad neutrals, which is probably why Yogg got hit so much quicker and more effectively than Reshka (though still not enough).
Yeah mctech was so damn frustrating to play against especially if devs ever wanted to push a token strategy that floods the board then out come the mctechs in every deck since it's neutral.
People also despised the card in arena, not that arena means much.
1:40 Bazaar mentioned
We should all jump ship to teach Blizzard a lesson
Sylvanas is almost exactly a card called Keiga, the Tide Star.
It's a 6 mana 5/5 blue dragon with Flying, and when it dies you gain control of target creature.
I mean Sylvanas was worse because it wasn't evasive at all and the minion you get is random. It was still a staple in every single deck to the point where much much later they released a retrain of her that had a much more conditional effect and she still saw play in most decks.
I was thinking exactly the same thing
@@Noobie2k7 Evasion is weird to compare MTG to HS since sylvanas if no taunt can just go face like every other minion that isn't freshly summoned without charge or rush. It's also far different in the context of HS where you can attack minions whereas in MTG the opponent has to choose to block. Sylvanas trading with something to steal their best minion was a common play pattern, keiga when it attacks the opponent can simply take 5.
Starving Buzard went to 2 mana again when they unnerfed bunch of wild cards for the first time and it single handedly made beast hunter a tier 2 deck in wild
Non-HS player here, won't Power Overwhelming also be good for proactively triggering Deathrattle stuff? Or is it only true in theory, but in practice it just doesn't come up?
ye its debetable. warlock has been using it to proc deathrattles for long time but it really never was the main focus of the card or the archetype. its more like a nice bonus when it works
Yes, Warlocks used it on their eggs to trade and then trigger their deathrattle or steal the minion with Sylvanas for big tempo board swings. They also used it with "Destroy minion, deal its attack as AoE" card to clear enemy board. And they also used it as burst with Leroy.
There was also a card that ate friendly minions and took their stats, that allowed to bypass the drawback of 1-turn buff.
The big flexibility and utility of this card is why it was so widely played in most Warlock decks in the first years of HS and the reason for its removal. The only Warlock deck that I do not remember seeing this was Malygos Warlock, as it only had synergies with AoE spell there.
Having been around at the time, I absolutely guarantee that MC Tech died just because people were tired of it. Playing around MC Tech meant just never fully developing your board, which is... just not fun. It came out *just often enough* that playing that fourth minion was terrifying, and yet was rare enough that usually you were playing around it for nothing; the card was just that scarring when it hit.
I liked it, back in the day, it felt like you are controlling something, your decisions mattered more. I haven't played classic Hearthstone in years but it was already bad enough 5+ years ago when they introduced battlegrounds. I would only come back if all cards that create other cards were banned. And since it felt like they are only releasing such cards back in 2019, I imagine that didn't stop too much.
I do remember MC tech running rampant through arena at the time. Otherwise your mentioned reasons make sense as well.
hearthstone team dont give a f about arena especially at that time
dude the commander game you did was amazingsuper fun!! i hope i can see you cimo and cgb and roxy next time! i mean i love crim playstyle and he is a really cool dude but i was missing cimo in that game!
I swear I’m being mandela effected with regards to the year of the Phoenix hall of fame, I swear I even half recall a specific blurb they gave for acolyte of pain. But I can’t find it so I guess it didn’t happen.
Disregarding that, I’m pretty sure the idea behind it was to weed out cards that tend to be recurring problems for some reason or another. Leeroy for otks and burst wombo combos, mountain giants for coming down too early (it wasn’t that long after lpg and conjurer’s calling was abusing it in mage), MC tech for being generally annoying (I’m pretty sure it was consistently being ran in quest shaman at the time), acolyte of pain for being too good of a neutral draw tool mainly in warrior, and I guess spellbreaker cause they didn’t want to worry about silence killing off whatever cool payoff they’d print later (like a rattlegore I’d guess)
Pretty sure acolyte of pain got HoF'ed because it was among the best card draw regardless of class generally speaking and in other classes would be draw 2-3 cards, which was above rate for 3 mana that also had a body attached to affect the board. While not a HS designer Kibler commented on it saying a lot of decks resorted to acolyte to get more card draw and he has designed for many card games over the years so he knows bad design better than the average player.
Mind Control Tech was removed for the health of arena. I'm pretty sure that was the only reason.
It was banned from arena separately
At 5:54, CGB is just casually dropping a Strong Bad reference. Good stuff!
5:53 always love a good strong bad reference
This guy is so funny! that power overwhelming rant was amazing!
9:19 "tribal decks are bad"
Demons, beasts, and pirates have entered the chat
Undead Warchief in MTG has way more upsides. It is a 2/1, correct, but it buffs itself up to a 4/2 and reduces your future zombie spells by one.
I think the Ice Lance HoF was absolutely justified in the context of the time. No matter what mage deck you wanted to play, it was almost mandatory to include 2x frost bolt and 2x ice lance for the 14 burst. And if you're already doing that, well now you should probably include 2x fireball too, and since you have cheap spells and burn, you should play Antonidas, and . . . whoops, you made freeze mage. Ice Lance was the best burn spell in the whole game. It's still ubiquitous in wild. It couldn't stick around forever.
Also, back then, I played a mage deck that was aggro or tempo in every matchup except against Priest. Priest couldn't heal above 30, so you would just assemble a 30-damage combo and kill them from hand. Priest was supposed to counter tempo burn decks, but I had a 100% win rate in that matchup despite being generally terrible at the game. It really was too good.
EDIT: The combo was 2x apprentice, Thalnos, 2x frost bolt, 2x ice lance, 2x roaring torch, fireball for 39. It was pretty easy to get all of that minus one piece and still do over 30. The same deck that could do that could also win on turn 3 against other classes with mana wyrms and apprentices. TURN 3.
I fail to see why is it better they can only do it in wild now and not in standard. Why would standard matter more?
@@tomscorpion6288 Because the power level in wild is extremely high. The overwhelming majority of cards are not viable in wild. Also, the entire point of wild is that you can play with all kinds of wacky old cards. It's the same reason Black Lotus is still legal in Vintage, except you don't have to pay a gajillion dollars to get two copies of Ice Lance.
These are my favorite type of Rarran videos. Keep it up!
Murloc Warleader got me thinking there should be a 2 mana "Removal" spell for Shamans that:
*Discover*, Targeted creature turns into the chosen *Murlock*
But when played in a Shaman deck, they either are removing a threat/taunt, or, trying to summon a War Leader on your already full board.
Sounds appropriate as hell.
The average murloc is so small that you basically just gave Shaman 2 mana polymorph.
You would never use this on your own board and would only ever use it as removal
This type of video made me play hearthstone again (already stopped, but that's not the point). Keep it up!
Hot diggity daffodil pumped to watch this.
28:43 Rarran: Got him
As someone who has never played Hearthstone, but has played WoW, I was certain Sylvanas wasn't banned.
Its lore accurate. She has been banned to play the word expansion for all eternity
The original version is, but there's a different card of Sylvanas with a less powerful version of her effect that was made later where she's wearing her Shadowlands armor that's still normally playable. Many characters get multiple cards or even hero replacement skins based on their Warcraft lore, so you can't always go by a singular one to know how they're represented in Hearthstone.
@@LittlepipMLPless powerful? thats heavily debetable i really cant think of a single way its less powerful than some occasional deathrattle synergy. battlecry mind control is just so much better than deathrattle even if its infuse
38:52 obviously I don't blame him for not knowing about stuff like unleash but it is fascinating to me that he talks about starving buzzard as if it's a card you play on turn 2, and not a card you hold until you can play it with something else.
He also didnt mention UTH has charge
If hunter draws a spell like Hunter's mark (1 mana removal is crazy) or Animal companion (Leok or Huffer) could be potencial lethal 2/3 of the time
This video was a nostalgia trip for me. I stopped playing in 2017 and these cards all used to be staples in my decks
10:55 I do need to call out Keiga, the Tide Star. Six-mana 5/5 that steals something on death.
I think a lesson that needs to be learned about evaluating hearthstone cards is that, because you always get mana each turn, you don't have to always evaluate a card "on curve" because more often than not they are played in the mid-game or late-game combined with another card to get the value immediately instead of having to untap with it.
When was this video filmed? Starving is 2 mana again @rarran
I could've sworn I remember a timeline where Starving Buzzard was a 3 mana 3/2 but I must be mistaken cause wiki does not remember that at all.
My favourite Disney Land interaction is maxed out sapphire spell stone, brukan quest line so your spells cast twice, malygos, then the nuke of all lightning bolt
I believe Mind Control Tech was Hall-Of-Famed for limiting the board space and being a card you always had to think about. You play 4 minions on board (even in a meta-game where MCT wasn't that prevalent anymore) and you always had that "please don't be running MCT" feeling in the back of your head because you know if it comes down they might steal the huge fun minion you put down and leave you with lesser card, very tilting lol.
CGB and Rarran have such great uncle nephew chemistry!
Oh yes! I missed these videos, you and cgb have such a great energy!! Also really hoping youre gonna play liars bar again with the mtf crew 😂
Rarran, you should have them view treasures from solo adventures!
3:32 fuck I almost fell out of my chair from EPIC, CGB should voice some cards, goddamn
IMO MCT had the same issue as old BGH. It had decent enough stats to be played just as a minion without the effect, if you find out your opponent will likely not devellop a board with 4 minions. So you get a card that is ridiculously strong as a tech card, but there is no real downside for putting it in your deck, if the tech doesn't apply. That said they actually had a lot to work with to deal with that as they could just have lowered MCTs stats to 2/2. It would still have worked as tech, but you wouldn't want to play the card without the effect hitting, so in case you play against something like freeze mage that doesn't have lots of minions on board, you're adding a brick to your deck.
Classic Hearthstone
8:16 @Roffle mentioned?!1?!
I’ve played quite a few card games over the past 12 years or so, and freeze mage is still my favorite deck out of any card game. I had a BLAST piloting that deck
i could watch you and Mesa Falcon Guy talk about anything all day ngl
Yeah these two just play off each other so well
When I quit Hearthstone years ago, I dusted all but one card to make sure I couldn't return.
The lone survivor was my first golden, Azure Drake.
Hall of Fame isn't about design space, it's " do people need to give us less money because they already have this card?" Just like literally every single hearthstone decision.
M giant and Mc tech could probably be attributed to the same as sylvanas or azure drake. They were in every control deck, it was another card you were worried bout or played round, and it was just their time to go. I never realized they didn't say anything bout why they left.
Blessed Champion ICANT
CGB is literally everywhere right now,and im here for all of it
There might not be a creature in MTG with that bonus rate that Murloc Warleader had, but MTG does have Coat of Arms
22:16 is it bad that I read this as the archon from StarCraft?
The old Blade flurry allowed rogues to board wipe taunts for only 2 mana AND still go face, then equip/create/buff another big weapon and hit twice in the same turn... freaking busted
rarran and cgb best combo on youtube rn
When Rarran talks about how MCTech was nerfed so returning players can feel good, I can't stop thinking how I returned to the game after 1.5 years, found that almost all my decks were broken because of nerfs card removals. That felt horrible
Hmm now that I think about it Mind Control Tech can be used in a Vanndar Control deck since it currently costs 5 mana.
20:52 I have no mind and I must scream
CGB said “someone loves these creepy little weirdos” and that really resonated with me cause I still make murloc noises at my girlfriend as a form of communication after playing hearthstone for 10 years and loving murlocs the entire time
Based
I haven't played in years, but I was the guy slinging Anyfin Can Happen OTK Paladin in Wild long after anyone was still doing that.
they're just like me frfr mgrglrglrlgr
i stopped playing hearthstone before mind control tech was hall of famed so i don't know about standard constructed, but during the time i played, in arena specifically, it was the most frustrating card in the world and im glad they shot it.
Because you always knew you should have thought about it, but didnt
I love how CGB evaluate the card correctly and than he thinks about final answer and he change it to the wrong one.
Ah yes, the IGN approach, 'this game is mostly garbage. I give it... 7/10'
Murloc Warleader activated my neurons.
Wasn't Sylvanus also originally 5 mana?
7:23 King of the Pride, baby!
i think part of it is the felt like they needed to hall of fame some cards from each class.
40:35 And the hounds also had charge, even better!
Well, he's not 100% wrong on them caring about Wild. They do nerf the most egregious stuff that comes there, but not much else. Just the most gamebreaking combos. They don't, and also can't, really care about keeping different archetypes viable.
Hearing him call Blade Flurry Blade Fury like a dozen times was slowly driving me insane.
Also, we do have Immune, which makes the target unable to be targeted by enemies and cannot take damage. It is not something you can put on a minion permanently in general. The one card that does this also destroys your deck and it's 10 mana.
As for what the point of Hall of Fame was, it was, in no small part, to take out the overplayed cards, that they also can't really nerf, or really don't want to.
You can't mention Unleash the Hounds without also mention that they had **charge**.
MC tech was hall of famed purely because of arena, at that point in time it was long passed being playable in standard due to how fast the game was, but in arena, especially with 'lower skilled' players, it caused so many hate threads on the forum blizzard was probably sick and tired of having to justify why the card was fine.
Wasnt logic behid MCT getting HoFd related to its randomness where no matter what 1 player would always feel scammed by RNG?
8:28 I take offense to your accurate comment!
While the power and toughness is a little off, King of the Pride in mtg, is basically the same rate to 7:30.
Power Overwhelming does limit a lot of design space
At worst is one mana deals 4 damage and synergises with the Hero Power.
At best... OTK potencial, increase tempo, pumps more damage for aggro decks, very good with lifesteal/deathrattle minions... this card would be an auto include in every warlock deck
1:40 :) mentioned
Malygos was hall of famed or i'm trippin?
A good idea for a hearthstone format I don’t think you’ve done is playing only with an element (ex: you create a deck that only includes fire cards or spells or like shadow cards or spells or nature etc…)
Unleash started at 2 mana right?
azure drake was used in close to all decks i can remember way back if you had any good spells rouge was able to use fan of knifes mage had a lot of them paladin lets you use consecrate for more damage warlock had some great use of it druid loved it with swipe and was a draw so it was really just a question of "is there ANY better 5 drops" and not a single one was, and if there was it was normally Legendary's so really easy to just throw azure drake in too has single or 2x has it was just that universal it was scary to leave up felt great/never bad to drop down when it was hall of fame it was really opening the 5 cost slot to more cards and more spell damage was opened up too
That was only true for Classic set. With Naxx we did get belchers and Loatheb that were as popular to run as were Azure Drakes.
Yes but even with those Azure was still used has a 1 off due to wanting about 2-3 5 costs being wanted :)
@@aswerhhh4487
My theory for removing mountain giant, probably another case of «please play new decks, you’ve only played handlock for so long» and mc tech is such a needlessly punishing card. It’s like someone else pointed out here in the comment section, it’s an arbitrary gotcha whose only counterplay is to NOT play cards. That’s not fun.
...Spellbreaker got HoF'd? WHY?
Ok, its a decently stated silence, especially in the days where Ironbeak Owl costs 3, but it's not like decks were running a dedicated silence minion (at least by the time I left HS) for the effect.
Yes they did. They fucked owl as well.... they just hated silence.
36:00 Raran says only ice lance and ice block got hall of famed from mage, so mana wyrm probably didnt.
there is a card in foundations jumpstart called woodland liege that is basically a starving buzzard
When did blade flurry do damage to face as well?!?!
CGB is back lets goo
New idea for mind control tech (when mct dies the minion u stole goes back to the other board/deck) (mct might be okey at 3 mana again in that case).
These are my videos that gained my sub, lets go
i do wonder if there was some sort of midrange demon hunter that used mountain giant that was too strong in play testing and thats why they famed it. due to the very affordable on curve draw into skull, letting you fill your hand than just do a huge dump on turn 5. that being said games were usually over on turn 5 anyways so its not really a valid reason.
Blade fury gaming?
I always had the feeling MCT was Hall-of-Famed because the highrolls were too good, as HS devs changed their design philosophy over these years, such plays were often deemed as 'bad feeling', and I think that was a factor for MCT. Might've also been to help promote DH I guess, day 1 DH would have wide boards... if you survived that long.
Also want to see CBG react to Hysteria and his worst win rate deck ever win via Sylvanas giving opponent Jaraxus
Sylvanas my beloved, I miss you so much