I don’t need customers like this: “Get out and STAY OUT”
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2025
- In todays video we show some Cosworth engine and Focus RS engine progress, also I have to tell you about this type of customer that is not welcome in our business
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At 0:51, aren't the gaps supposed to be the bore TIMES 0.007, so for example a 4 inch bore requires a 0.028" gap?
I'm not sure how to read that because of the units. It says 'Bore × 0.007" ' so I'd say the gap would be (4") × 0.007" which requires a 0.028 in² gap.
Edit: Also, saying 'Min 0.015" ' implies I can just leave the ring rail out since any gap larger is acceptable and 100% gap is definitely greater than or equal to 0.015".
@@Sonny_McMacsson I read it at 0.007" for every inch of Bore Diameter.
@@KensSmallEngineRepair It is but the way the units are shown it technically comes out to inches squared because bore diameter is in inches units as well. Really, the constant should be in units of inches per inch, not just inches. "Inch" is sounding funny now.
@@Sonny_McMacsson Clearance is in Inches, not inches squared. I've been using inches per inch ring gap calculations for years. Forget squared units, its inches PER inch of Bore. EG the calculation .007 in/in x 4 in, the top and bottom inches cancel out and you are left with 0.028 inches.
@@KensSmallEngineRepair The table says 'Bore x 0.007" '. 'Bore' is in inches and so is the constant so that yields inches squared, which is how units analysis works.The equation is sloppy and I'm being pedantic. Obviously the ring gap isn't an area unless this is a 4-dimensional engine. 'Bore' times a dimensionless constant would also be correct since 'in/in' cancels to '1'.
Just a question about ring gap please. If I was reading the chart that came with the pistons/rings I would interpret it as bore times 0.007, so for example a 3" bore x 0.007 would be 0.021" so if you left it at 0.010" it would be to tight.
Yes it’s X bore so more like 21thou 🙄
Yes he screwed it up completely and very few figured it out.
Yes, I think you are 100% correct on the calc for the recommended gap.
Is ring gap not a calculation of bore diameter x recommendation…. Not straight 0.007” unless you’re on a 1” bore.
Yes, correct. Bore diameter x recommended gap
I though the ring gap is times your bore size so if you have a a 3 inch bore your ring gap needs to be .024"
Just found the channel --proper workshop and the commentary says to me that you chaps know how to use the kit in it .... I wish you were closer to Norfolk Id be the free workshop tidy man (im 70 and love the smell of car oil in the morning) PS 70 years young and still driving my Focus RS 3 --and just sold my 1986 immaculate capri 2.8 .. best regards
Your ring gaps are totally wrong!!!!! That BMW engine will nip the rings and blow up!!!!!
You need the bore size. If you look at the instructions its x 1" of bore.
So like 86.5mm piston is 3.406"
So it needs to be 0.007" x 3.406 = 0.024" that's the correct ring gap.
Better get that engine back..... Don't let it go out like that.... it will blow up.
Ash
SRD Tuning
Love the channel like watching you guys but look at the instructions.
I build loads of high power 1000hp + engines and use the manly pistons all the time.
Yes those ‘manly’ pistons, so much better than the ‘girly’ ones 😜
@@peterbrown7130 lmao, love it !
I love the final scene/words. Shows that your sense of humor is alive and well. 😊
I thought it stated Bore multiplied by your .007". So 3.50" bore x.007" would be .0245". But i could be wrong. Let me know.
OMG I have the very same clients. They are few. I call them the "1 percenters". " I can time my own cams if I had a degree wheel, dial gauge, and the other small bits." I tell them all of those tools would be a great investment to their tool boxes. I NEVER take in the "tuner wanna be's".
They are the ones that have others build their machines. They are also the ones to shower accolades on themselves, as a great engine builder, if all works well. Conversely they are also the ones to spit venom at a shop if they have a failure.
Great video. Thanks Lee for all of the hard work. It takes time and patience to put together these videos. A special shout out to your wife. I hope she got through her exams. Both of you are a winning team. You are blessed to have Paul, John, Isacc and your father in law (Ray?) to help round out the "A" team. Be good. Stay safe. Go out and have a Deluxe weekend.
WTF. Ring gap is 0.007" TIMES BORE DIAMETER. Not 0.007" total.
obviously a deliberate mistake to see if we are paying attention
Doubt that very much.@@colinartus1897
@@colinartus1897 Yes, it's 0.007" per inch of bore but we'll see. Should make some good drama later.
I said the same, I wondered for so long what was up with all the warranty claims- 🤷🏻♂️. Wondering now if he machines the valve clearance in piston after balancing- and why are you running the knee up instead of setting a quill stop and use it? I’m not a master engine builder or precision machinist but I did stay at a holiday inn express so I’m qualified to voice my concern.
I have been building successful race engines for 40 years. It makes my blood run cold seeing some of the things he does
and more importantly some of the things that are absolutely essential that get completely overlooked. @@bensclassicbodywork
7 thou is NOT the gap, you need to multiply the bore size by that figure. IE if your bore was 3 inch, the gap requirement would be 21 thou. 7 though is too tight and will break rings and or damage the bore. The Manley chart clearly states ' BORE x 0.007'.
I use a piston with a top ring installed- that way you know when you push it in it is square to the deck.
Really not gonna make a measurable difference if you are a degree or two out, it makes much more of an error if you don't read the sheet which clearly states Bore x 0.007''. He was miles out.
"I'm not being funny, but it sounds like you can't afford me" usually shuts them up.
😼😸😸😸
Its already been said a few times, but youve done those ring gaps wrong, they're far to tight
You are going to have a problem with those ring gaps, should multiply by bore diameter, surprised you weren’t surprised at such a small figure that you interpreted to be….
The know how is Always king and you guy's know how, I have always been interested in how engines work.great work on the videos I find them interesting
Many years ago when we had to go to shops to buy music, I knew someone who would drive 30 - 40 miles to save £1 on a CD and then claim he'd saved money by shopping round. Great video and chat, loving how clean the engines look when they've had some TLC ready to return to the customer.
Please don't say many years ago 🤣 that makes me feel very old
£1 on one CD, sure, but how many CD's did he buy at a time?
Ring gap guide said 7thou x piston size in inches approximately 21thou or am I missing something?
I pointed that out aswel your totally correct 👍
I use them pistons all the time in our builds at SRD Tuning and its 0.007" x bore size
You have to accept that sometimes you get a customer that's not going to be happy no matter what you do. One of my old bosses told me years ago when you have a bad customer just hit em in the wallet lol. Whenever someone comes to my shop and asks me for a price and inevitably say so and so can do it cheaper I say, "I guess that's where you should take it then". That's usually the end of it. Some customers aren't worth the time you're never going to get back no matter how much they pay.
The gap sheet states "bore X .007" not .007"...... so a 3" dia bore should be gapped to .021"......
Back in the late 70's i worked briefly for this engine rebuilding shop ( they no longer exist) . The owner was a real loose cannon, if he didn't like the customer he would sometimes physically chase them out of the shop. The reason i finally left there was because he totally scammed a customer. The customer brought in this beautiful late 60's camaro with a 427 c.i. engine, four speed. The customer stated that he was driving along and he lost oil pressure and immediately shut it off. We tore the oil pan off to find that the oil pickup had fallen off, nothing else was found to be wrong. He charged that customer for a full rebuild. I couldn't work for someone that corrupt.
Brilliant episode. Excellent views of the engines' builds & so true about sacking-off the potential troublesome client. I've run businesses and a smart 'No' has saved me more often than not! Your videos have got better and better Lee, well done.
“ owt for nowters” we call em “chizits” because they constantly want to know how much is it. usually drive something premium German and the tyres are named after a red indian you’ve never heard of. Opening question starts with Can you just do…. My mate in the pub has told me what it needs..etc
The problem with guys who take parts to different shops ,is the warranty side ,as you will always get people who will blame 1of the other shops ,even if it is their fault.The good old our bit failed because they made a mess of their bit
True , but some are looking for a good deal/price (I understand you get what you pay for) and they pay , just because it's an expensive (old/classic/limited etc) doesn't mean owner is loaded , most work hard for their pride and joy or toy
👋👋👋👋 I think he's making it quite obvious that he only wants the loaded customers.
Wow im amazed how you remember where all the parts where for that one engine. And what a lovely finish on that rocker cover
Please tell me yo multiplied th 7 thou by the bore dia??? It says bore X 7 thou
It's an absolute truism that the people who want to pay the least are always going to be the most aggro. The penny pinchers are the ones to watch out for. I'm in a different world, but self employed, and it's never not been true. By far the worst, most difficult, customer I ever had - the ones who were constantly on the phone moaning, pushing for more and more, getting every last possible drop of blood, were the ones who paid the least.
I’ve also found that if they are ‘difficult’ at the start of the sales process, they are even more difficult at the end. I always dump them quickly and let them move on to one of my competitors 😂😂
It is also usually the people that are quite well off that are like this, that you could double the price and it wouldn't even make a dent in the bank balance
@@davidnorton5887 it's particularly sweet telling them no, as they always like to act like they're doing you some huge favour by gracing you with their presence
Sounds very familiar. Job recently was major agro from time deposit paid and still is now job done as not bothered to pay.
@@davidnorton5887that’s the best way by far.
First time finding your page, my goodness it is interesting..
Had a neighbour years ago ask if my brother and I had a crank grinder in our workshop (we didn’t) told him to go and see a local company that did. Came back a day later saying “he wants £10 a journal to grind it. So I said “ ok then I’ll spend £5k on a machine to do your crank for free shall I?” He got the point!
Do you ever use 'Process Sheets' to ensure the correct sequence of the rebuild? In the aviation world it is best practice to use Process Sheets which of course also act as a checklist to avow costly errors or omissions.
That ring end gap is bore x.007, not .007. So if the bore is 3.0 inch the gap should be.021, not 007.
Those ring gaps, it stated bore x 7 thou. You never calculated the correct ring gap and just went straight to 7 thou
Not sure if I’m reading the chart wrong or you are but it looked like it said BORE X .007 - being .021 on a 3” bore - I’ll be looking for this one in a future warranty claim.
He will blame the tuner or the injectors!
Ha, ha I had remembered reading people saying, 'you had mucked up the rings' last time I read through the comments, so as you did these, I thought, 'aha, he is proving his ring measuring competence. I first took little notice of the procedure until you started measuring. You said you needed .007 and proceeded to allow for some unknown greater than .008 - So I went to read the sheet..It is in blinkin English; Bore x 0.007. It is also explained in the text below the chart.
We've all done stupid muck ups but not on camera thank goodness...Didn't it occur that whatever you did with that reading it was impossible to match your expected figure?
You don't appreciate people saying, ''I could have done it, if I had the tools''.. Well almost everyone here can use a file and carefully stroke the ring in the right direction and de-burr after measuring for correct gap.
Here's hoping I did something stupid by misinterpreting the video.
@martinda7446 "and proceeded to allow for some unknown greater than .008" Love it lol, exactly what I thought.
So every engine built to date has tight rings?
When will these comments be read?
Only just stumbled across your UA-cam... Nice work .. 👍🏻
Looking forward to watching this video, on the train back home from work. I love this video title, and the thumbnail is best ever ! 😅
I've heard that comment myself where people state that if they had the equipment they could do it themselves and it most often comes from people who've had zero experience actually doing the type of work. I like Lee's response to that sort.
I've always found it difficult to be patient with people who push to minimize the work you have to do in order to get the job done more cheaply. Another one is where they tell you how long they think it should take you to do the work, and it's always just a few minutes.
Oh, and for those who don't think that Lee puts in real hands on time in the shop doing the work, I would suggest that they go back and watch more than one or two past videos. And even if he got to the point where he didn't do much of the work anymore due to growth of the business and his efforts being required elsewhere, what business is that of anyone?
I can't believe the number of jerks that comment on youtube. My guess is that they're unhappy people that try to console themselves by trying to make other people miserable. My guess is that they're jealous of success the shop is having.
We should be glad for each other, not bitter, jealous, and lashing out.
I had a guy come in recently, wanting a flywheel to be manufactured for a race bike. He went to great lengths explaining how he would do it himself if he had the equipment and how noone seems to want to take his money even though he is loaded with cash. He wanted to pay $50 for 4 hours of work, including $40 of steel.
@@dquad oh dear, I can be a little bit like that except I say but I don’t have the kit and I want to pay for your expertise so just let me know what it’s going to cost me 👍
Im really confused about the ring gaps. Thought most engines are 16 to 28 thou? You seem to be using much smaller gaps.
He doesn`t know what he`s doing
It clearly said its bore x 7thou, not 7 thou, there's nowhere near enough ring gap in that
That`s exactly what I said below.@@cazsmith3503
Yep, you know more about engines than the self-proclaimed cosworth specialist.
Quick question on your calcs on ring gap. Taking a guess that that bore is about 82mm ish. Should the ring gap not be more like 22 thou ??
Cheers Lee, on the Cosworth Flywheel did you check the mating face on the back of the Flywheel to Crank boss Face?, if that isn’t true theirs no point trying to balance the Crank and Flywheel assembly. See you on the next one 😊
As i understand it, he only tried 2 of the 6 possible positions, then gave up.
I don’t know much about the V8s but I seem to remember that the preloads for the lifters takes quite a time.
More importantly when you have another pushrod engine like a B series could you go in detail on how to time the cam. I saw the A series one but it would be a great to have genuine lesson. Many thanks I have subscribed from the beginning.
Omg lee, that part about the customers made me giggle, I've had a few like that, bloody nightmare they are......cheers.....paul j.
the customer 'isn't always right'. part of running a successful business is calling out the time wasters but also providing a service to those who appreciate your skills, both of which you do.
Where do you find customers like that ? ....it’s only when the job is done and finished, that you get to know. Having just half a dozen great clients won’t pay the mortgage, unfortunately we have to deal with the idiots, sob stories, scammers, and those that don’t pay their invoices. Dealing with big businesses often means waiting months for payment, and therefore recouping the outlay of parts that I’ve paid for. Running a business is a battle field and trying to dodge the bullets.
Had a Mini engine rebuilt in the 70s and it did 200/pint afterwards. Never smoked, garage gave me 20galls of oil, dont know what they did to cause it, but aways reliable with no problems😊
One of the best/worst I heard from client was "such n such up the road can do it for this much" when isn't anyone up the road equipped to do the job.
I ran my own business for 35 years, and many customers didn’t have any idea about the jobs I turned out, and always thought they knew better - whatsmore, they always expected all the extras they added on for free. I lost on average £1k a year in bad debts too. Thank goodness I’m retired and out of the business.
Sounds like you don't know how to do ring end gap correctly 😂
Sure would like to see an update on this one. A Few commented on ring gap was not correct and they are absolutely right. How was this issue resloved ?
Good one Lee. Have a great weekend.
I restore old sash windows and if I get a feeling I just don’t quote it
I love the stories Lee.
Got to say I am the sort that will try and do everything myself, I love learning new things and apart from the machine work, I've done everything on my car, I've built the engine, I've made the engine wiring harness and I've even been learning to map it. Yeah I've had a few bumps in the road but that's learning.
I do however get where you're coming from, I'm a pipefitter by trade and the amount of people that's said they were also pipefitters then see what they actually know is astounding. These days when someone says they can also do what I do, I just raise an eyebrow and simply say "oh yeah" as I'm about to hear a load of drivel.
When I was a Forman at a Garage I worked at We had a couple of customers we sacked only to find one had been banded by a couple of main agents in the area so good for you Lee
Some are just not worth the agro and you know how ever hard you try for them it will never be right.
Id be interested to know if you have to repolish the end Main bearing journals after you have balanced a Crank.
Keep up the good work.
There are the people who appreciate people with knowledge and experience and are prepared to pay for that. And there are those who don’t want to pay for that and think it’s for everyone else to pay except them. If you want a decent job you need to pay, there are no shortcuts in life.
You seem to post a lot of issues, not sure I’d use u on this basis
The bloke down the pub said it will only thank you 5 minutes
We have all had those customers sorry to say 👍👍
Keep up the good work
That's the first time I'VE SEEN YOU ON MACHINE
You need to give Isaac and Paul a camera and have them take "POT SHOTS" during the day of the various machining that gets done by themselves and others. It was a pleasure to see John on the screen. Be nice to have him go through a polishing at least once.
I like your flat out style; dont over do it LOL
Dude your doing that ring gap totally wrong! That's .007" per inch of cylinder bore. That's why it says " Bore x .007" . Recheck those instructions.
Bodgeum engines strike again
being a fab/welder/mechanic mostly callout to plant/agric repairs' the one that pissid me off the most ''All you gotta do is'' to that it was ok you dont need me you know how to repair it yourself i'll send you the call out charge bill ..........
So many people in management and owners need to learn that lesson, yes turning away work or jobs etc isn't a thing you really want todo, but when you have those customers that tie you up so much, and cause you pointless problems you are not actually making much if anything on it since you have to dedicate so much time and effort 9/10 on their cheap budget job.....money in the till, money in the till they will say and never see that you would have got more money in the till telling the pain in the cheeks customer no and just get on with everything else
Hi Lee, do you ever replace a small end bush, if so any chance of a video, Cheers Ray Great Show Thanks for all your efforts.
So are you going to actually gap the rings correctly on that BMW motor? In what world would 7 thou of ring gap be correct for any performsnce car engine? Scary.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again “ Joe Public, he’s generally a pain in the arse “ they really do get in the way of enjoying your job.
Same as selling cars. The moment you give them a discount they will come back demanding you fix everything wrong on the car even though the agreement was "as is"
You need to make the ground clear from. the outset, confirmed in writing, minimises nightmare scenarios, but nothing eliminates them completely
A guy I worked with many years ago did a high performance engine for a guy. He balked on the price but there was a signed estimate, and the final price was less than estimate. He refused to pay. The boss said fine. He then died, his wife told us to keep it. I ended up getting the engine for the price of the parts. The son came to collect the engine, we showed the letter thru the lawyer.
can anyone explain to me why manufacturers group cylinders so close together ..looks to me like they are setting up for easy head gasket blow on that 6 cylinder BMW, a 1/4" extra or more on each cylinder would only make a 4 cylinder engine and the car grow 1 inch wider ...so cant be that surely
The answer is simple - packaging. You only have to view VW-Audi engine bays to understand how jammed packed they are - you'd assume they use a dozen shoe horns to insert the 'friggin' engine. What's more, VW-Audi manufacture narrow angle V motors to further enhance the packaging by 'squeezing' the piston bores even closer - i.e so they appear to almost overlap one another. Needless to say, working on the larger engined VW-Audis, especially as the brittle (breaky-breaky) plastics age, is simply painful.
Ouch sounds like you get more pain from the customers then the engines!
I have a small machine shop that I use for my own hobby sort of work. I can make pretty much make anything I want to make between my Bridgeport milling machine and my small lathe and the rest of my tools/machines. Once in awhile I get the idea that I could take on a little bit of piecework to keep myself busy and make a little bit of extra cash but then my better sense takes over when I start remembering what it's like to deal with customers. For me it's just not worth it. I like helping people, I really do. I've often done favors for people for free, but the problem is that NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED. It's not uncommon to do something for someone only to have them come back and complain and for them to somehow come to the conclusion that you not only owed that too them, but much more in their estimation. They want it for cheap, or for free, and they want it fast, and they want it perfect, and some also expect you to take them out to dinner as well.
A lifetime ago a friend worked at a mens wear shop while in high school. The owner had been in business for years and could size people up after talking to them for a couple of minutes. Some people you just will not be able to satisfy, so send them down the road.
Prospective customers have to pass "The Flake Test". A few are unable to do so. Pushy types are the worst, then the cheap types. I pick my customers as much as they pick me. For the future Lee this phrase works every time. "We'd like to help you out, which way did you come in?"
"Something about the Mini lot" Fair shout some Mini owners are bit quirky and parochial in their own ways, it is funny though. A chap I know who's into is classic Rover/MG Mini's we all call him gremlin, cause's he's short, freckled, ginger, podgy going bald and a fussy curmudgeon but he's alright and it gives him character.
Yeah I would not waste gas over there where you're at. Especially since they charge you by the liter 145.7p at today's prices compared to the US here in California, it is $5 09 US dollar per gallon. Makes me feel I'm a little better on what I pay but not by much.
When the enquiry starts with "Wot it is is..." our answer is probably going to be no.
just an observation do you use washers on clamp bolts eg when you were milling the piston heads didnt seem to be any i am no engineer but was always told to use washers on mating faces
If you are having to work hard to solve errors on components what is the quality of components the manufactures,conrods do not alter in weight from manufactures? so what is happening?
I had a bloke drive 40 mile because the exhaust was £3 cheaper i didnt budge and he went wasted a full day and a 80 mile trip 😂
Ooh that’s embarrassing….a so called pro engine builder who doesn’t understand how to gap rings correctly
sometimes u just get that fealing u are gonna get your fingures burnt and its safer to say no im with u on that
Can you replicate the factory fly cut finish on the Cosworth Rocka ??
I’d do it myself if I started Cosworth and had all the equipment
Gotta do your best to turn down the price shoppers. Once they start saying that so and so are cheaper, we just tell them that it sounds like a great deal. We can't compete, a customer price shopping to that extent for a rebuild or competition engine probably can't afford it anyway, even if they could there expectations are far beyond what anyone could deliver, so yeah move them along.
i knew it, a bunch of slackers, everyone of them would need a X- ray to see if they had a full days work in them. 8D
Hey Leigh. Happy to be told I am wrong here because you are the expert not me but isn't it 7 thou per inch of bore, not 7 thou absolute....... Total gap of 7 thou seems a bit tight but hey..... It was 30 years ago that I built engines.
You're absolutely right, lee is wrong. Schoolboy error.
When someone is as cheap as that, £10 here, £5 there, you know they're going to be a pain. They'll query every little thing, trying to save 50p. More hassle than they're worth. I've asked for all in price if I bring MORE work/buy more stuff to places, they can always say no. (I was buying RAM and asked what can you do if I order 80 sticks can we get near X? reply was 78 for X - done)
Call me stupid guys I don’t know much about engine blocks at all, but the gaps in the centre of the 4 piston bores on engines with the solid metal casting missing.. How do the cylinders support themselves when pistons are moving up and down? Do they not split or move? 🧐
I don't know the type of BMW engine on the video, however it's an open deck design where the lower portion of the cylinder liners form part of the lower part of the engine block, allowing the liner's upper sides to be contact with the coolant - hence providing more efficient cooling. You will also notice that the first and last liners are also attached to the sides of the block to increase robustness. A more extreme case of an open deck design is the old Alfa Romeo 4 cylinder twin cam engine. This engine is a 'wet liner' design where it employs completely seperate (and removable) cylinder liners where the lower portion of the liner is firmly and precisley inserted within the bottom (rigid) portion of the block and allows coolant to completely encircle the upper 2/3 of the cylinder liner. The cylinder liner incorporates a seal at the shoulder of the cylinder liner-to-block surface to prevent coolant leaks. The siginficant benefit of the old Alfa engine is that the cylinder liners and pistons can be removed and replaced with new - i.e. no need for an expensive cylinder rebore.
@@georgebettiol8338 Well that’s definitely opened my eyes up, thank you very very much pal. - just another quick question, when some manufacturers hammer in little shims of metal against these, is that to support the bores themselves?
we all in this kind of industry have customers like that wheather it be vehicle repair engine rebuild and some times u just want 2 politly tell them f off if u think u can do it get on with it
So what your saying is you can't do it with a black & decker attached to a bench top drill stand from Amazon?
Of course 'he' can - and to within half a thou tolerance as long as the Black& Decker is new.
As Ruskin said. One can pay too little for something.
Pro tip: gap your oil control rings too.
LOL A good engineer makes skilled and potentially dangerous operations look easy, the customers that say they would do it themselves would make a right do of it themselves if they tried, would not even want to think about what could happen. %100 for PPE.
Imagine going into a machine shop saying you would do it yourself but you haven’t the tools. If you don’t have the tools how could you even possibly know how to do the job.
Nice to see the Lee cub progress to a Lion and put himself and business first vs the old days!! 👍🤛👏🙃 He'll contaminate us. F.... Off!
your 6th sense is essential when it comes to sussing out crappy customers
Flat out playing with your phones 😂😂😂😂
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
"An expert is someone who has succeeded in making decisions and judgements simpler through knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore." That includes some customers
The old to hard basket, There is so many of these types who I Genuinely believe are put on this earth to annoy the rest of us. Like wasps
Some people will spend all day trying to save 20£.....not realising they have just wasted most of a day. Clearly they don't value there time at all.
We have a new drinking game. Every time you say 'Thou' drink a shot.
Try taking a shot every time he makes a mistake, you'll be an alcoholic by saturday