I think Mad Love sums him up the best. He can lie well enough to pretend to be sympathetic... but deep down he is exactly the same on the surface. Just a monster with a twisted sense of humor.
At the end of the day, most of the villains in Gotham are redeemable in some way or another. As a child BTAS really helped me to understand the concept of empathy for the first time. Seeing Batman try to help his villains and understand their side of things. But then there’s always the joker, a constant reminder that there are people in the world who will always try and take advantage of your empathy and twist the narrative for their own ends, people who unfortunately don’t want help, only to use you for their own selfish reasons.
It is even more Twisted when you remember Harley herself suffered under an Abusive and Violent dad, Joker basically used her own past against her to get her to Fall madly in love with him, Joker is truly Sick! and that is what makes that Version so Brilliant!
I ABSOLUTLEY AGREE. Joker is not supposed to be a victim; he's a monster Who likes to see he and Batman as face of the same medallion and obsessed with the fact that anyone can go crazy. It always makes more sense to me that pre-chemical bath he was already a criminal as Red hood. JUST LIKE THE FIRST COMIC DEPICTING THAT STORY.
I still prefer the version where he was normal guy before chemical vat, like in the killing joke. It make sense to me the most, since with the joker belief that one day can turn every normal person to crazy maniac, as the joker want to justify his suffering But not dowplaying the dcau version of the joker, which is still great to see a pure evil joker, who's bad day wasnt a change to him, but rather a revealation who he always was
@@skeletontamirThe point of the Killing Joke is that the story of his backstory before falling into the vat of chemicals is a mystery to him and that he doesn't remember his own past. He even says that directly. The flashbacks are supposed to be a misdirect.
Only in the Killing Joke comicbook he (somewhat) comes off as relatable despite all the cruelty he continues to commit but since the DCAU version of the Joker was based on Jack Nicholson incarnation from the 1989 Batman movie it makes sense he remained an irredeemable monster.
@@Paolo-ec2si He was outright based on Jack Napier/Jack Nicholson's Joker from the 1989 Batman who was also nothing more than a murderer and petty criminal which is why he was consistently written as just that out of consistency for Nicholson's performance as the character and the movie the series was trying to capitalize on.
Making The Joker, of all supervillains, coming off as a tragic character because "we live in a society" pretty much defeats the purpose of what makes him a true menace to Gotham City. He is called a "Clown Prince of Crime" for a reason. Redeeming qualities doesn't matter to him as long as he's committing more crimes and wreaking havoc as possible as he can just for kicks, like telling Batman that there are no laws against the Pokemon.
I think that's why the three Joker's storyline it was revealed that Killing joke Joker Before he fell into the vat of chemicals he was already pretty unhinged that his pregnant wife was scared of him, To the point where she went to gcpd for protection would which ended up with her being relocated to Alaska.
You seem to forget that everything said in “Joker” was primarily told from his perspective. We’re being sold one of his stories and alot of people fell for it, hook line and sinker. If that was intention is up for debate but it’s still a way to look at the movie.
The Joker is one of those rare characters of fiction that never needs a backstory. They never satisfy who he eventually becomes. He works better as something that just exists.
Always liked how they did it in the Christopher Nolan movie. He has a bunch of origin stories just to drive home the point that his origin doesn't matter. There is an infinite number of ways a man can be broken and this one is.
@@deadlypandaghost He's not just another "man," I guess is the heart of my comment. He should just be an oddity, an anachronism in Gotham; a singular undefinable entity that exists to just bring misery. He's something Batman can never solve or figure out. If anything, Joker is the very embodiment of what Bruce Wayne wants Batman to be; an idea that transcends his own physical limitations. Joker just 'is' and any backstory detracts from that.
the only real backstory that works is BTAS's and i will die on that hill tbh. he's just a scumbag who got an easy way to reinvent himself. even then it doesnt explain much, like if he's really insane, how he survives all the time, all that is still just kinda...there.
The reason the Joker works well against Batman is because they really polar opposites. Batman is an empathetic man. He even has sympathy for some of his rogues and even helps them at times. Making the Joker sympathetic destroys why he works so well.
it honeslty makes sense that hes just a scumbag like the mask of the phatasm just a psycho who uses sympathy for its own gain when he was garbage all along
@SerumLake the _Rock of Ages_ storyline in JLA ran with that interpretation. Martian Manhunter manages to telepathically force Joker back to sanity for a minute, and Joker is utterly horrified at who he is.
@@nicholasfarrell5981This is repeated in another issue where Ra's Al Ghul employs Joker's services, then kills him when his usefulness runs out. Batman used a Lazarus Pit to bring him back so he can question his about Ra's plan. Since most revive temporarily insane, Joker came back very much sane, horrified and depressed.
I’ve thought about this too. I think the idea is fascinating because it adds a layer of subtle vulnerability to him but it isn’t shown outwardly at all. He’s still horribly violent, but there is a part deep inside that wants to convince himself that it isn’t all his fault.
I think Joker having once worked in organized crime actually does work as a solid contrast to the chaotic clown he is now. It's why I prefer Paul Dini's backstory in Case Study to The Killing Joke.
@@SerumLake It's all good chief. Glad to be talking with you again. I've gotten back into a DCAU mood as me and a couple friends are planning on binging several different batman continuities, ranging from 66 to the new Matt Reeves iteration. It's honestly quite exciting.
@@SerumLake please make a video for the history of the Batman Beyond villain named Cuvier from the Batman Beyond Season Two Episode titled Splicers please
A spot of hope that is crushed just it shines in its brightest... gotta love Alex Ross' art there too. That guy knows his deconstructive-reconstructive comic book iterations to otherwise familiar heroes.
Oh, people still misunderstand him. They can't accept that a man can be that unrepentantly evil, wanting to watch the world burn just for the hell of it.
True enough, though at the same time I think some people take the monster part too far. Get down to it, he’s a homicidal bully, not a mythic emissary of chaos. It’s why I enjoy joker’s favor, he truly has no scruples but at the same time he just as afraid of death as his victims.
@@changvasejarik62I feel like there's a balance you want to strike. If you make the Joker too much of a monster then you really have to have a damn good compelling reason for why Batman doesn't kill him which almost no piece of media provides, sometimes even character assassinating Batman into a psychopath himself to justify it with "once I taste blood I won't stop because I like killing". IMO, this is why the central premise of the "One Bad Day" works. If you want Batman to have a genuine reason in line with his morals as to why he doesn't kill Joker, Joker inherently has to be something Batman can believe is by some slim chance redeemable (Batman's no killing rule is entirely built around the idea that people can be rehabilitated, so if Joker is truly impossible to rehabilitated you get to the point where Batman's rule just doesn't apply- this is why he was fine shooting and killing Darkseid in the comics when Darkseid was about to destroy the universe, as Darkseid is wholly and purely evil), or go into the other direction and make him another of Arkham's tragic figures. The alternative is to make him something like BTAS where he's evil, but not so evil that he's some kind of outright Satanic figure like Darkseid like so much media takes him to the extent of being. Then it's at least not totally unreasonable that Batman could believe Joker is still human enough to potentially be reached, even without evidence.
One underrated moment that I think does a great job illistrating your point is in the episode Harlequinade. When Joker's going to nuke Gotham to get all his eniemies at ones, Mayor Hill asks about all the innocent people that will die. Joker doesn't go into some great speech about society or showing them who they really are inside, he simply replies "some Joke on them, eh? Think of it as the ultimate Punchline!" He does the most dispicalble things because he just finds them funny and that's a lot more scary to me.
Exactly! If he had some grand philosophical point to make he'd be just like dozens of other villains. But he's just doing it for fun. That's actually far more unique in its simplicity, such that other villains who do similar things are seen as imitators.
Yeah, I'm a massive fan of the Joker myself but even I am kind of tire about him at times because he's just not that great in many recent versions (looking at you Suicide Squad Kill the Justice League).
@A_Person_64 I agree, while I love the "three steps ahead" Joker interpretation of the Noland films. It does get boring after the like third or fourth iteration of that particular Joker. Personally, I think the best versions of the Joker are the ones who can dish it out but can't take a serve or are massive hypocrites. I feel he's more entertaining that way, like he's a serious threat but the moment you pull his own nonsense against him, he reverts to a snivvling cowards or snaps so viciously that you can get the upper hand just by "ruining the joke."
@BrightWulph I’m so glad someone else appreciates that interpretation. It also allows for Batman to actually WIN, which writers seem to be allergic to nowadays, ever allowing him to really beat the Joker. It’s always some roundabout victory where the Joker wins either way in his own mind, and Batman has to face some sort of serious loss or moral quandary. Frankly I’m a little tired of it and just want Batman to punch his teeth out, foil his plans, and put a frown on the clown’s face. Hell, if James Gunn could just open his new DCU Batman film with a fun action set piece where Joker is defeated early on and never pops in again, I’d be so happy and eternally grateful. It’d be a much-needed palate cleanser and a reminder that Joker’s a scumbag. He’s the bad guy. We can enjoy his comedy and his antics, but never try to side with his pathetic attempts to justify his appalling crimes. This notion of Batman and Joker as two sides of the same coin is one I’m also more than over at this point. One can most certainly exist without the other. Bruce Wayne is Batman with or without the Joker. He doesn’t stop being Batman because he finally wins against his archenemy. If the Joker died tomorrow, Bruce would have the best sleep of his life, then get right back to tracking down Two-Face or busting Penguin’s criminal empire, because that’s just who he is. I feel the approach of making Joker synonymous with crime or evil itself has detracted from the character a lot. He’s not some infinite and unbeatable demon. He’s a pathetic, pitiful man in a purple suit.
My favorite bits with the Joker are when he just completely loses it and drops all pretense of being a clown and just straight up kills someone. Like Return of the Joker's "You're not Batman!" line followed up by him just trying to choke Terry out. He so desperately likes to pretend he's above it all and he's got it all figured out.
The Joker wants to be in control of the play, like a stage director or producer... even tho the "play" is the lives of the citizens of Gotham City. When he loses that control, he's as indignant as any stage director would be if the actors randomly go off script. I like this aspect of the Joker because it shows HOW it's possible (albeit difficult) to trip him up: the Joker expects the police, citizens of Gotham, Batman, etc, to play their scripted roles... so just stop playing along and the Joker can't adapt. IN OTHER WORDS: The Joker's number one weakness is IMPROV 😂
My favorite origins for Joker were the ones where he wasn’t a victim of society or a family man with a tragic story, it was the ones where he was already a deranged lunatic who just needed that bad day to trigger his true evil. You’re not supposed to like or sympathize with him, he’s a character meant to be feared. That especially works perfectly with the kind of Batman story where he wants to help and rehabilitate his villains. The Joker is the one he cannot fix because he wasn’t broken, he’s just evil plain and simple.
The Joker is the natural nemesis for The Batman. Batman is methodical, disciplined, trained, researched, purposeful. The Joker represents the chaos and absurdity of life, which all of those things epitomized by Batman can never truly overcome.
The hell are you talking about? The Joker is just as methodical, disciplined, researched, purposeful as Batman, the only thing missing is training and Return of the Joker showed what a joker with Bruce's training is capable of.
The Joker craves an audience to be shocked and awed at him. Sure he could'a killed Andrea but then he wouldn't get to hear her reactions. The funeral for Batman (and Sydney) was just him coming up with a good bit for Harley and his grunts and once it's over, break for lunch! The guy even ripped off Mad Hatter and made three comedians almost ruin their lives by forcing them to become costumed villains because a year ago they mocked him routine at a comedy show he went to in disguise. And at that year's contest after making fun of their situation, he drops the disguise and just steals the trophy even though the crowd liked his routine. The man is compulsively committed to The Bit ...it's this compulsion that paints his weakness very, very clear. He **needs** to be the star of Gotham's real life horror story. When his favourite 'hobby'Charlie Collins almost killed him in some alley or when he's standing, pantsed in front of a crowd who are laughing AT him, when he's being yelled at by Ivy, Hatter and iirc Crane at the end of Joker's Wild because he changed the channel in the Arkham rec room showing his most recent defeat **and** the fact he was whipped up into a fury to blow up the titual casino for an insurance scheme-that ALMOST worked if Bats hadn't told him He wilts like his fake flower at the idea he's being looked down on And eventually, in the Return of The Joker film for Batman Beyond, this attitude bit him in the arse...TWICE.
In short, the world ultimately forgetting about him would be a godsend. It is even clarified in Batman: Arkham Knight... you know what they say, and in films like The Book of Life and Coco, *you can't truly kill anyone unless and until they are completely forgotten.*
In the Killing Joke, loved the line Joker has "sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If i have an origin I like it multiple choice". Love the idea of no origin and he keeps making one's up when he needs one
I prefer Joker being pure evil, he's not meant to be a victim like some of the other villains, to me it makes more sense that he was always a bad guy with no redeeming qualities rather than him being a normal guy before he became The Joker.
@@nathenewendzel7806 elements of the story may very well be true part of the thing with the jokers backstory is that even he doesn’t remember much of his own past and is not exactly clear on anything before the chemical bath.
To me, the greatest summation of Joker as a being in the DCAU was in Batman Beyond Return of the Joker when Bruce responds to Terry when he asked if Joker was his biggest villain by saying "It wasn't a popularity contest. He was a psychopath. A monster." The way I have always interpreted the Joker is as a force of nature, not a representation of the mentally ill. Joker is completely aware of his own actions and basks in the glee that causing carnage and misery brings him.
With this realization it only becomes a massive plot hole as to how the heck did DCAU Bruce manage to avoid realizing this guy DID NOT DESERVED TO GO TO ARKHAM but instead a maximum security regular _prison_ where he would rot for the remainder of his life sentence without ever harming, traumatizing and brainwashing (Tim gets his happy ending) anyone ever again?
@@javiervasquez625 The law was what kept sending him to Arkham. Though considering Arkham eventually got condemned I wonder if Joker ever did get sent to another jail, and probably broke out of that one too.
@@WhiteFangofWar The "law" in DCAU Gotham is either too corrupt, incompetent or outright stupid not to notice the sheer evidence for Joker's sanity to send him to Arkham every time he carried out another city wide killing spree. Gordon should be ashamed for sucking at his job at such a monumental level after failing to realize the impossible prospect that a crazy person could ever kill so many people with such intelligent planning and organizing on the side.
True enough but one thing he has in common with Ra’s for as above it as he may present himself. He is neither fearless or invincible. In addition to his confrontation with Charlie and the creeper, in one of the tiein comics Batman explains the problem of a joker made from the batman and joker surrenders and basically orders Harley to take a bullet for batman the joker fired. As much of a threat as he is, he’s not a force of nature at most he’s a wrench in the machine of society.
@@WhiteFangofWar DCAU Gotham's Law Enforcement are the definiton of incompetence if they see how explicitly sane this guy is to organize his many crimes and killing sprees and somehow rationalize he must be an insane person in need of therapy. Gordon should be ashamed for his incompetence and Bruce should admit guilt for failing to contact the _right authority_ to properly process such a deranged terrorist as Jack Napier.
this and the '89 movie's take on the Joker were the only ones that ever made sense to me. The Joker is not some sad little weepy boy who hurts people cuz he's all broken up inside and wants to lash out, he's a bully and a monster at heart and getting disfigured just meant he didn't have to pretend to be "normal" about it anymore.
You’re absolutely right. The Joker was never anything but tragic or sympathetic. He was as Poison Ivy described, a psychotic creep. Born from the darkness itself. The clown acid bath, simply gave him an identity. As Batman put it in return of the Joker. “It wasn’t a popularity contest. He was a psychopath, he was a monster”.
Is Joker truly that psychotic, though? He's certainly a murderous sociopath, but he's likely in completely control of his mind and understands exactly how much of a monster he is. He simply likes being a monster and enjoys showing others how monstrous he is.
The Joker is a prime example on a great usage of "Evil for evils sake" trope. Not all villains need a tragic backstory or a deep reason as to why they are doing things. In the cases of pure evil, the past does not matter, what matters is the now and gettin that greatest of duels with their sworn nemesis, or finalizing that one big plan for the simplest of reasons. In a similar sense there have been many people who have gone to do various things just to see what happens. Whether those be the "I wonder what happens if I fire the airsoft gun at my foot" or the ones who ponder "what makes the fridge work". One will have a visit to the hospital, the other will have a broken fridge. Same goes for those who know what will happen, but do it anyway to see it happen. Regardless of the end result.
Another way to make this effective is to make the evil character just as capable as the protagonists. He doesn't just die off or defeated in one story, but a recurring one.
I love that DCAU Joker gets progessively more evil and scary as his chronological appearences progress. He's a pretty Silver age/Romero esk Joker in Christmas with the Joker and Last Laugh. To Be a Clown is more creepy just because of the overlooming threat to an unsuspecting child. Joker's Favor and Laughing Fish is where the tone of the character really shifted and the suggestion that this Joker is a killer is really inforced, while not explicitly stated. Mask of the Phantasm and Mad Love are really the next major stepping stone. Showing how depraved and abusive he can be. Of course the major culmination is Return of the Joker, which makes Death in the Family seem friendly family. At least in the comics this was just a spur of the moment thing he thought to do. But what Joker did to Tim was well planned out, done slowly, and greatly enjoyed every step of the way. You can tell in Joker's monologue to Bruce just how much he's savoring every torterous word to him.
The Joker's ambiguity and irredeemable evil makes him terrifyingly iconic. He does not need a backstory, he just malicious and relishes it. There's a similar character in Bleach that undoubtedly took some queues from this monster clown. Tokinada Tsunayshiro, a high ranking member of a powerful noble family who just wants to see the worlds enveloped in chaos while being utterly cruel. He uses his status as immunity and laughs as he tortures and kills. He also enjoys playing mind games with others, bringing up past failures or hypocrisies before suddenly threatening them. Sometimes there's no need for a backstory or sympathy, just evil will do.
Agree not every character needs one especially one as mysterious as the Joker. Don't care if the guy was the inventor of the drug that beat cancer or had a ranch of homeless animal's before he became the Joker evil is evil period
I remember in a DVD extra that a writer said whenever the Joker does something really horrible but you laugh at it you're definitely on the right track when writing him. I absolutely love how this show portrayed that side of Mr J, and with Mark Hamils masterful voice work, he'll always translate into a portrayal that has such gravitas... It makes you smile.
The only relatible thing about the Joker should ever be is that he isn't immune to making bad jokes. Every so often, you'll get a cornball in there. A pun so terrible that a shrug or a groan from the viewer is sure to follow.
Joker works better when he's just a irredimable monster. Not some poor soul who became a villain out of tragedy like Freeze or Two Face but a madman who enjoy the suffering of others. This helps the moments Batman has to save Joker's life even more intense. It's clear the Joker is beyond redemption, there's nothing on him that worthy saving. Letting him die could seem like the best option to create a better world. But Bruce can't do it. He knows that it's not up to him to decide who gets to live or die, even a monster like the Joker. It shows the strenght of Batman's compassion and his dedication to his core values.
@@eskanda3434 If people of Gotham know the Joker is such danger, then he should got the death penalty. It's not up for Batman to decide who gets to live and who gets to die. That's up for the law and the people it represents.
@@eskanda3434 Plus, even if Batman killed the Joker, those future innocent people would still be killed by other villain or event that Batman couldn't stop. He's just human and death comes to anyone, soon or later, in any shape or form. In any scenario Batman would still have to deal with loss. At least his way allows him to fight crime without corrupting his morallity and turning him into a villain like Mr Freeze or Ra's Al Ghul.
I personally don’t mind when Joker has a sad origin, it’s always tracked with my personal interpretation of the character that he is someone who went through a degree of suffering in some form or another. I like it best however when the nature of his origin is still left a mystery and that regardless of what it is that doesn’t detract from his insanity or make him out as a tragic figure. I kind of think interpretations like The Killing Joke, Nolan’s TDK, and BTAS mesh that concept very well, they establish Joker did (or at least probably did in the case of Ledger) experience a degree of suffering but we’re shown through the victims of Joker’s ploys that simply being put in a bad situation isn’t enough to make every normal well-meaning person snap. Joker may have had a bad day but that doesn’t rationalize or humanize the actions and decisions he took after that. He wasn’t a good man turned bad he was a bad man turned worse.
The Joker is one of those rare characters where his background can be fluid enough to fit the story and be whatever kind of role the narrative needs him to be, but also doesn't require any sort of background whatsoever - he simply just is. The BtaS version strikes the perfect balance of chaos between malevolence and devil-may-care. Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger walked this line pretty well, while Joaquin Phoenix was almost a different genre entirely. Jared Leto just belongs in a pillory somewhere. Cameron Monaghan did a great job, even if the series writing became garbage pretty quickly and he maybe aped a little too much Ledger at times. But no one can touch Mark Hamill. Not a single other animated version has even come close. Most are just annoying or pale imitations.
@naiveparsley2917 I think his performance hits all the right notes in terms of characterization. Kevin Michael Richardson is a very talented voice actor. But his voice, to me, doesn't fit. He isn't the worst though. The worst in my opinion is Troy Baker, also a talented voice actor, but not a good fit. John DiMaggio was a little jarring at first, because when I hear him it's hard not to think of Jake or Bender, but he grew on me.
Another bit of evidence to backup your assertion that joker’s obsession with Batman is secondary is in Batman beyond return of the joker, when the joker says to Bruce “I suppose I should salute you as a worthy adversary and all that, but the truth is I really did hate your guts.”
My personal headcanon is that the Joker isn't really mad or mentally ill at all. Sure, we can label him as narcissistic, having anti-social personality, and a bunch of other stuff, but imo he is none of that, not in a clinical sense. Everything he does is performative, even his so called madness, he is a perfectly sane person that does horrible acts because he likes it. He doesn't need help in Arkham, he needs to be put on Blackgate.
Yeah, his actions and persona are an act. He is playing a larger than life villain, whose performances involve real misdeeds rather than pretend. That's part of his obsession with Batman. Joker wants to be THE villain, and what does a great villain need? A great hero to oppose them. Steve Englehart wrote some great dialogue for Joker which defines this.
I always liked the idea that Batman under all that stern and grim is the one struggling with mental health and trauma but still strives to be a good man, whereas Joker under all that theatricality and personality is completely sound of mind and just loves having an excuse to be cruel
In my opinion it was the events of Wild Cards that proved to the general population/government officials of the DCAU that the Joker isn't insane but evil.
Agreed, Joker is much more effective as a cynical nihilistic monster who merely tries to convince anyone who will listen that he is a tortured soul. In fact his use of multiple freudian excuse stories indicates that he finds the entire concept of 'one bad day' worthy of mockery. *Nothing* is sacred to the Joker. He trolls at Harvey Dent's identity disorder, Penguin's ego-boosting extravagance, Ivy's environmental concerns, and of course Harley's genuine desire for his affection. He considers them all pale imitators to him, Batman's one true nemesis. As a former online moderator, he's even easier for me to hate.
I like to think of Joker as a little bit inhuman, he represents the Unknown and the existential terrifying. He seems mortal and can be killed, yet he always mysteriously survives and comes back. He's a genius who would live in Wealth and Power if he wanted, but he really doesn't care about that stuff. He doesn't even mindlessly kill people, his biggest game in life is to entertain himself every way he wants.
Joker's stories and personality prove that BTAS (and animation as a whole) is not inherently less effective than live-action. When I watched these shows as a kid, and even now, I never thought of them as lesser than live-action. They were just good stories. In fact, I still argue that these stories work better in animation because of how the animators are able to better express the emotions of the characters on screen as well as the psychological imagery that the story requires. If this show doesn't prove that animation can be just as good (or even better) than live-action, I don't know what will.
Adding to what you said, a villain having a sympathetic backstory and being nigh irredeemably evil are not mutually exclusive. So I still say both can be possible at once for the Joker. One recent example of this, which I found very well done, was the plot twists involving the Nowhere King’s backstory in “Centaurworld”. Basically, there are a lot of tragic and sympathetic parts of the Nowhere King’s backstory. But then he becomes so bent on causing two worlds full of innocents to suffer and die for his own pleasure, that he loses all the protagonist’s sympathy. Also, it becomes clear that the Nowhere King always had some of those vices, plus his own torment and transformations were ultimately self-inflicted anyway. By the time he is defeated, he ends up dying without any redemption too.
I like that Joker was basically the only villain in the series who's origin/first meeting with Batman is never shown on screen. By the time the show started, him and Batman had already been enemies for some time before, so we can't sympathize with who he was because we don't know anything about him. The closest was in Mask of the Phantasm but even then we don't know much about him besides that he worked for the mob
When it comes to BTAS keeping the Joker evil from even his origin is that it reminds people that turning to evil isn't just something that comes from tragedy. People often turn to evil because it's an easy road for them to get power and indulge in their vices.
I don’t know. I think he was just born evil with psychopathy, hence being a bad seed like most psychopaths and sociopaths in real life. Worst part is that the Joker probably had loving parents that he killed.
Brainiac: " Were you born evil? " Lex Luthor: " No human is born evil . . . except, of course: " *shows him a picture of the Jack Napier* Lex Luthor: *scowls in disgust.*
I don't think anyone, not even Jack Napier, is born evil. As the prison chaplain in A Clockwork Orange said: "Goodness comes from within. Goodness is chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceased to be a man." Jack chose to be evil because it suited him better than being good. Becoming The Joker was just the final stage of his evil life.
I also never liked giving him a name. I like how the 'Phantasm' script just refers to him as 'The Tall Man' in flashback scenes. Apparently they planned to show a surrealistic flashback of his origin when Bruce realizes who he is, but never animated it for some reason. "The Tall Man falls into an impossibly wide vat of green chemicals. The chemicals SWIRL and BOIL, filling the screen. Suddenly it turns into a swirling surrealistic jumble of purple and green colors, out of which erupt various objects of Joker-related imagery -- playing cards, chatter teeth, Harley, laughing fish, murderous robot clown toys, and finally a gigantic image of The Joker himself, evil as sin and LAUGHING to bust a gut."
Mark Hamill's Joker was the Original Perfect Joker. He was the One that i think Truly Inspired the Idea of Heath Ledgers Joker. Pure Evil, No Background, an Incarnation of Chaos itself with a Ton of Mysteries!
Dude the Joker is such a unredeemable monster in btas but is also so weirdly sympathetic and genuinely funny besides being evil af Mark Hamill truly did an amazing job portraying him
In Batman Beyond, Terry (the new batman) proceeds to pick at his ego in the shadows (while dodging Joker's attempts to knock him down from the rafters) while he's posessing someone through a device...and for joker that was what pissed him off the most was someone laughing at his entire identity, motive, and backstory and not being the one who gets the last laugh in the end.
Even if he was abused as a child it doesn't necessarily make him a sympathetic villain in the real world there are serial killers that had abusive childhoods that doesn't mean they're sympathetic
I always loved how the animated series followed the Burton series and made Joker a mobster. It makes so much sense how Joker would have these connections to the criminal underworld and his many heists. The animated series expanded on the Burton origins and I prefer it that way. It showed that the Joker was already a messed up person to begin with, it was just the vat of chemicals that made him a go crazy.
I personally like both psychopathic irredeemable Joker and a more sympathetic version of him, like the one from the Joker 2019. I think it's better that both exist, so we have a choice which we think is better for some contexts and which is better for others. And both Joaquin Phoenix' performance and Mark Hamill's are absolutely gorgeous, they really do make the character come alive.
I agree with you. I feel like it's important both versions exit. I feel this is why Jerome from Gotham is the best take on him. You feel sorry for Jerome but he's also terrifying because you know what he's capable of and because he truly does not give a fuck if you show him sympathy. Which shows how far gone he is.
A lot of things influence us and guide us to the people we become. But as agents with free will, we are ultimately accountable for our actions. No backstory, no matter how tragic, would justify the monster that the Joker is. And that fact liberates the character from the need for any backstory at all.
The only sympathetic version of Joker that I felt worked was Telltale; he was still somewhat violent and homicidal but he's actually trying to be a good person, and his friendship with Bruce is INCREDIBLY tragic.
People who take the "one bad day" line at face value miss the point of the Killing Joke, I feel. To me, the whole point of Killing Joke was that Joker's whole claim is a lie he tells himself to justify what he does. He needs to believe that he became what he is because of a terrible event to be comfortable with his own actions, but the narrative does not justify that, because Commissioner Gordon does not break and become like Joker. What Alan Moore posited was that you don't just become a crazed killer just because of tragedy. Joker was probably not a great person even before whatever terrible event made him the Joker. It didn't do good things for his mental health, clearly, but he wasn't just some otherwise normal person who suddenly went violently insane because of a single event. I had a whole thing about this that I meant to say in response to the Killing Joke, but I could never get that comment to post. It kept giving me an error - often a sign that your comment has something that whatever automated system UA-cam uses has determined you've violated their policy. I suspect it didn't like that I talked about the history of police violence against the mentally ill, but I really have no idea for sure.
i dont know, there are a mountain of examples of "one bad day" being the driving force behind a lot of real world violence. on a public scale, not individual. as to why gordon didnt break, realistically speaking, each mind is going to handle trauma differently. the same event might give one person lifelong PTSD, but for another it might just be another tuesday. and not to get too focused on it, but we do know gordon, generally speaking. he's been shown to have strong willpower, and we know from his circumstances and job that he's not one to let personal trauma jeopardize things in an emergency. i'm not ssaying he can't break, just that because the joker is completely incapable of understanding gordon's mind, it's impossible for him to do the breaking. and to be clear, none of this means that your point, this is a lie the joker tells himself, is not also true.
What makes The Killing Joke fall flat for me is Mr. No Name's wife, Jeannie. She's pregnant and living in the ghetto with an unemployed husband who is trying to make a living with a hobby that he isn't even good at. She should have told him to either beg for his job at ACE back or start flipping burgers at the Gotham Grill. Just making a woman laugh and being good in bed is NEVER enough. Her and their unborn child's death may have been traumatic, but HE led those events to their end, not "one bad day." All that doesn't turn one into a criminal mastermind overnight.
@@RoosterMontgomery I think you miss something critical to the story here. The backstory the Joker tells most likely isn't true. It's an elaborate fantasy he came up with to make himself feel more justified in what he does. Because deep down, some part of him is still human and in the moments when his mania quiets, he still feels haunted by his own actions.
Kinda screwed up when a large chunk of society thinks pure evil like Joker is sympathetic. Remember he's not Legitimately insane like the Ventriloquist or Two-Face he is fully aware of his actions and revels in them
@eldrideinherjar6711 That's true that's why I only take bits and pieces of comic lore as character development in comics, in general, is way too inconsistent
There's no denying that the Joker is a malevolent madman, the Moriarty to Batman's Holmes. An unrepentant homicidal maniac who gets his giggles by his acts of crime, ranging from larceny to murder. Still, thanks to Mark Hamill's excellent voice acting, the Joker's my favorite of all of Batman's rogues gallery. His lines cracked me up, and that laugh...oh my God, that laugh! You don't know whether to be creeped out or laugh along with him. Mark brought the perfect balance of menace, insanity, and hilarity to the Clown Prince of Crime.
I think the best interpretation of the Joker would be one who *does* have a sympathetic reason for going mad (i.e. nurture rather than nature), but who is so much of a sociopathic narcissist that he is far too committed to being this "idea" that he hypes himself up to be, and so the idea that he's just one more poor lost soul who just needs a few years of therapy to move on from his trauma absolutely *disgusts* him. This would fit him in nicely with the whole idea that the only difference between a hero and a villain is their response to trauma, where a hero says they won't let anyone be hurt like they have, and a villain says they'll make sure everyone is hurt they way they have. In this sense, however, the Joker is so much of an egotistical megalomaniac that he has to turn what is essentially just him throwing a fit about the world being unfair and cruel into this grandiose and spectacular battle of wits and philosophy between himself and Batman. Because since the Joker is so much better than everyone else -- according to him -- it would be ridiculous for his actions to be motivated by petty revenge at the world for being hurt, so what they're actually motivated by is proving how life is meaningless and being a hero is stupid... yeah... totally... Totally not lying himself or anything... Nope. It's kind of pathetic when you think about it like that, and that's why I love it. It allows him to be equal parts pure evil, tragic, and pathetic without requiring the audience to feel any form of pity for him whatsoever. Bonus points if the "idea" that the Joker constantly hypes himself up to be is all just hogwash to begin with that he uses to manipulate weak minded people into doing what he wants, which is almost certainly what it is.
Great video, Luke. BTAS Joker stands apart from the tragic vilians you mentioned. As you said, even his game with Batman isn't really that important to him. I consider him and Roland Daggett to be the most reprehensible BTAS villians, both devoid of any redeeming qualities whatsoever. In addition to the way the character is written, Mark Hamill's voice acting brings home how demented he is.
Something else that is interesting about the Harlequin is that it's not just the name of a kind of jester. Back in the olden times, there were life-size mannequin-like puppets that were also called given the name Harlequin.
Honestly I get older I like the idea of an evil Joker as opposed to a tragic or truly insane one. Now that doesn’t mean we can’t have both but I think part of what makes Joker so fascinating and fun is that he twists the truth to serve his purpose. That’s something every Joker has in common, tragic or otherwise. He might even fool himself to get through the day. I think the problem with making him fully tragic is it downplays his actual villainy. Real crazy people don’t do what he does, he’s a criminal mastermind. The pity we have for him is another layer of manipulation he uses to fool everyone like Harley or even Batman. Allegedly Frank Miller and Alan Moore use to have this debate all the time with Frank Miller arguing pure evil and Alan Moore claiming Joker is Batman’s dark reflection. I use to support the ladder’s theory but I’m now definitely believing in the former.
I think what most people forget (Specially with recent Retcons) its that the Joker isnt exacly a Tragic Villian in The Killing Joke. Yes, his backstory is reveal there but The Joker makes very clear that he isnt a reliable narrador, so every flashback in The Killing Joke isnt exacly real. I onow this was retcon with The Three Jokers due to... Spoilers... But even then, the original intention was that he isnt reliable
@@michaelandreipalon359 Depends on What you mean by that. But i would say Its more like The Writers Are like The Joker and The Readers Are like Halley.
The truly scary thing about the Joker is that he's a reflection of a type of people that we have to occasionally deal with. There are some people who really do just enjoy being mean and nasty. But they're such a divergence from the vast majority that society in general doesn't want to believe that they're just horrible people.
I think one thing worth noting is that, if the Joker had been the one to kill Andrea Beaumont's father, he wouldn't have hesitated to kill her on the way out, laughing and smiling the entire time. Instead, Jack just calmly walks away, unconcerned. His job at the time was just to kill her father, not her. While the Joker takes joy in causing as much death and destruction as possible, for "Jack", killing was just a part of the job, and he only did it when the job called for it. Professionals have standards, I suppose.
Personally I like the idea that Harley somehow managed to worm her way into the Joker's heart, but he hates that so he treats her even worse than before as a way of punishing her for making him feel anything. It's tragic and complicated and toxic and makes for, in my opinion, great storytelling.
As much as I love Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger, and Joaquin Phoenix performance as the Joker but the DCAU Joker will always be the definitive version of the character in my opinion.
A thing that stuck out to me about DCAU/JL/JLU Joker was when the Royal Flush Gang was created chronologically. Looking at Ace makes anyone go insane, but when she looked at him it made him crazy for a period of time. Meaning when he says he’s crazy, he’s just acting unhinged. He’s a little insane, for doing the whole; Dead and yet alive trick we’ve seen him do, and going back to crime, and fighting Batman. But not crazy. He’s just hiding behind that label to somewhat justify his actions, no better than those rich punks from a BTAS episode.
Really great video! I agree with you on multiple points. One quick correction: In Batman #1 we actually do get a hint at Joker’s backstory. He chooses one of his victims, Judge Drake, because he sent him to prison, showing he was a criminal well before he became the Joker since his first appearance.
5:09 "The comic ends in an ambiguous way, suggesting that Batman has been tipped over the deep end." Nope. Gotta disagree with you there. Batman does NOT kill the Joker at the end of The Killing Joke, because if he does, The Killing Joke is meaningless. The Joker is trying to make Gordon (and by extension Batman) break through "one bad day," since that's what happened to him. But as Batman notes at the end, Gordon is made of sterner stuff than that, demanding that Batman bring in the Joker "by the book." And Batman himself notes that he doesn't want to beat the Joker up at the end of the book and even offers him sympathy, extending his hand to help him find a way back to sanity. If the Batman kills the Joker at the end of the book, that means the Joker was right, and I can't believe that Alan Moore would ever say that. (Besides, there's absolutely nothing in Moore's ultra-detailed script about it, and that's not something he'd leave out.) The "Batman kills the Joker at the end of The Killing Joke" thing has only ever been Grant Morrison fanwank, and has absolutely no basis in the book itself.
I seen a different theory on the ending that suggest Batman was actually poisoned by the Joker and the effects are kicking in. As throughout the comic hands played an important visual motif. Remember Joker had that needle in his glove when he talked to the circus owner. And in the fight with Joker there a panel where Batman seen looking at his own open palm. Suggesting Joker managed to poison Batman in the shuffle.
The more I see pre-Joker Jack Napier, the more I realize..... Man, they really used 1960's Jack Nicholson as a model for gangster Jack. Just look at 7:22, and tell me there isn't a resemblance!😂❤
A huge reason for why Jack Horner was so "liked". He was just irredeemable. No sad backstory or anything. As, like with real life: Some people are just... "broken" in a way that *cannot* be fixed.
Ah, the one in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish? That movie sure has grown on me in a manner not encountered since Shrek 1 and 2, plus Kung Fu Panda 1 and 2.
We really do like to believe that, huh. It's so much easier to toss away broken trash than it is to fix it. That's all it is: no philosophical grounding, no moralizing... just the desire to punish, because it's easy. People want so desperately to believe that there are fundamentally evil people... so they can be evil to them with a clean conscience. After all, these "broken" people are not really *human*, are they? Just another disposable population in the long list.
As a comic book fan growing up, I never ever bought into the idea of The Joker as a sympathetic figure before his transformation, I've always preferred him as someone who was already evil and just fully embraced the madness once he dropped into the vat of chemicals. The fact that Batman is partially responsible for helping to turn him into the monster that we all know makes their dynamic even more deeper and wild
This was WONDERFUL, thank you very much! TAS so totally reinvented a ton of Batman's rogues, and INVENTED Harley Quinn, having an amazing effect on the entire franchise. Mark Hamill's performance, especially against Kevin Conroy, is iconic for a very good reason. The Joker's self-obsession and self-mythologizing is undercut and exploited SO PERFECTLY in the Batman Beyond movie, Return of the Joker, when Terry just absolutely DESTROYS him verbally at the end. I'm so glad I found your channel-- Time to dive into your archives.
Almost ALL of Batman's rogues gallery have sad backstories or understandable points of view on why they do what they do. I think Joker is the one foe who is the perfect antithesis to them: A villain Batman can't or won't be able to redeem. Ever.
6:01 I personally feel it didn't make sense to retcon Joker's name in this universe, as he's got a defined background unlike the canon version. While like most people, I prefer not knowing anything of the Joker's past, versions like BTAS and Batman: White Knight make it work.
There was a comic I read once, it had the joker before his transformation as a hitman or something like that, but more importantly a sociopath. He was good at his job but would often mess things up just so things would be more entertaining for him, The job he was doing at the chemical plant was almost over, him and his associates had snuck it and if I remember correctly had what they were looking for, but the man who would be joker was board because things were too easy, so he intentionally raises an alert, which results in him fighting off security and the police while smiling and laughing, before encountering batman and getting knocked into the chemicals. All the chemicals did to him were change his perspective a little and free him from his obligations, one of the first things he comments on after climbing out of the river, is he looks at the moon and says it looks beautiful tonight.
The joker casino episode is my personal favorite btas episode because you get to see joker going from being angry about his likeness being stolen too low key admiring the fact that people are willingly having money stolen from them, even musing to himself that he should just take it over and retire, and then reverting back too wanting to blow the place up once batman shows up. It shows that he's still got a somewhat shrewd business mind locked away inside his broken psychopathic personality.
The multiple choice backstory was also later (and nicely) utilised in The Dark Knight when Heath Ledger Joker told multiple stories about how he got his scars.
I concur with the idea even before seeing this video. Not every needs a tragic backstory same a hero needs a tragic backstory to invoke a sense of justice and duty. Just an intriguing motivation for their actions can provided enough.
I like to instead just not know his backstory. I like the idea that he just showed up in gotham and only he knows why, or when. All I know is that I like a Joker who is an intelligent chemist (his laughing gas, his complicated plans and gadgets), wears makeup, likes to stand out in order to hide in a way, he cross dresses, he kills, all we know is his life currently has him constantly fighting for his life, yet sometimes he does get a big pay day, he’s resourceful just like batman, id say he has some morals in a weird or twisted way. When it comes down to it, i prefer a funny genius stupid silly killer joker rather than an overly gritty batman obsessed joker. His whole thing is being a clown, he has a theme, hes an entertainer. He curates his appearances and his crimes and can switch up from being wacky and funny to chillingly intimidating whenever he wants. This is what makes him interesting and unpredictable. Personally i don’t like the red hood backstory but that is just what i think.
I think the joker having multiple origins can actually work to fit into his character - they're all lies. Although if there had to be a single definitive origin, I think a combination of both the crime family & one bad day merged into one would be the best route to go. Make him always have been evil, but still go through such a horrid event, that it just makes him more dangerous, evil, twisted. Save the sympathy for Harley, Joker is at his best when he's just pure twisted evil. He never could know heartbreak, because he was always heartless. The only person besides himself that he should have ever cared for, was Batman, in his own deranged way.
As I’ve said to you many times, I wish they’d stop having him laughing and playing pranks all the time. I think he’s much better when there’s a disconnect between his rictus grin and his disturbing behaviour. Jack Nicholson’s version is probably my favourite because the whole clown thing is pretty arbitrary - he”s got playing cards in his hat, for some reason - and his ‘clownish’ behaviour manifests more in a sort of toddler-like distractibility and vicious whimsy. Most of the time his laughter seems intended to underline the fact that what he’s doing isn’t funny at all, and THAT’S the joke. Nicholson often used to claim it as his best work and I probably wouldn’t argue with him (I do not wanna get nuts).
I think Mad Love sums him up the best.
He can lie well enough to pretend to be sympathetic... but deep down he is exactly the same on the surface. Just a monster with a twisted sense of humor.
At the end of the day, most of the villains in Gotham are redeemable in some way or another. As a child BTAS really helped me to understand the concept of empathy for the first time. Seeing Batman try to help his villains and understand their side of things. But then there’s always the joker, a constant reminder that there are people in the world who will always try and take advantage of your empathy and twist the narrative for their own ends, people who unfortunately don’t want help, only to use you for their own selfish reasons.
Always remember the Joker's a clown who's meant to be funny even though he's evil
Who knows? Maybe all these backstories we keep getting are just stories he tells people.
It is even more Twisted when you remember Harley herself suffered under an Abusive and Violent dad, Joker basically used her own past against her to get her to Fall madly in love with him, Joker is truly Sick! and that is what makes that Version so Brilliant!
Exactly. Some people in this life are evil just because.
I think making him sympathetic would be mistake. He supposed to be a psychopath…a monster. Not a tortured soul crying for love and acceptance.
I ABSOLUTLEY AGREE.
Joker is not supposed to be a victim; he's a monster Who likes to see he and Batman as face of the same medallion and obsessed with the fact that anyone can go crazy.
It always makes more sense to me that pre-chemical bath he was already a criminal as Red hood. JUST LIKE THE FIRST COMIC DEPICTING THAT STORY.
I still prefer the version where he was normal guy before chemical vat, like in the killing joke.
It make sense to me the most, since with the joker belief that one day can turn every normal person to crazy maniac, as the joker want to justify his suffering
But not dowplaying the dcau version of the joker, which is still great to see a pure evil joker, who's bad day wasnt a change to him, but rather a revealation who he always was
@@skeletontamirThe point of the Killing Joke is that the story of his backstory before falling into the vat of chemicals is a mystery to him and that he doesn't remember his own past. He even says that directly. The flashbacks are supposed to be a misdirect.
Only in the Killing Joke comicbook he (somewhat) comes off as relatable despite all the cruelty he continues to commit but since the DCAU version of the Joker was based on Jack Nicholson incarnation from the 1989 Batman movie it makes sense he remained an irredeemable monster.
@@Paolo-ec2si He was outright based on Jack Napier/Jack Nicholson's Joker from the 1989 Batman who was also nothing more than a murderer and petty criminal which is why he was consistently written as just that out of consistency for Nicholson's performance as the character and the movie the series was trying to capitalize on.
Making The Joker, of all supervillains, coming off as a tragic character because "we live in a society" pretty much defeats the purpose of what makes him a true menace to Gotham City. He is called a "Clown Prince of Crime" for a reason. Redeeming qualities doesn't matter to him as long as he's committing more crimes and wreaking havoc as possible as he can just for kicks, like telling Batman that there are no laws against the Pokemon.
You know what im gonna do to that thing right batman
In a way that joker is what Harley thinks he is…not who he really is
I think that's why the three Joker's storyline it was revealed that Killing joke Joker Before he fell into the vat of chemicals he was already pretty unhinged that his pregnant wife was scared of him, To the point where she went to gcpd for protection would which ended up with her being relocated to Alaska.
You seem to forget that everything said in “Joker” was primarily told from his perspective. We’re being sold one of his stories and alot of people fell for it, hook line and sinker. If that was intention is up for debate but it’s still a way to look at the movie.
@@rynemcgriffin1752Some, all or none of his story could be true.
The Joker is one of those rare characters of fiction that never needs a backstory. They never satisfy who he eventually becomes. He works better as something that just exists.
Always liked how they did it in the Christopher Nolan movie. He has a bunch of origin stories just to drive home the point that his origin doesn't matter. There is an infinite number of ways a man can be broken and this one is.
The Joker never have an identity either he has a lot of names in different iterations (Jack Napier, Joe Carr, John Doe, etc.).
@@deadlypandaghost He's not just another "man," I guess is the heart of my comment. He should just be an oddity, an anachronism in Gotham; a singular undefinable entity that exists to just bring misery. He's something Batman can never solve or figure out. If anything, Joker is the very embodiment of what Bruce Wayne wants Batman to be; an idea that transcends his own physical limitations. Joker just 'is' and any backstory detracts from that.
I like the ''Jack Napier '' backstory... And it's barely even one.
the only real backstory that works is BTAS's and i will die on that hill tbh. he's just a scumbag who got an easy way to reinvent himself. even then it doesnt explain much, like if he's really insane, how he survives all the time, all that is still just kinda...there.
The reason the Joker works well against Batman is because they really polar opposites. Batman is an empathetic man. He even has sympathy for some of his rogues and even helps them at times.
Making the Joker sympathetic destroys why he works so well.
What if these sympathetic stories are just stories Joker made up like the one he gave Harley?
it honeslty makes sense that hes just a scumbag like the mask of the phatasm just a psycho who uses sympathy for its own gain when he was garbage all along
Maybe the reason he's so insistent on proving all it takes is one bad day is so he can convince himself he wasnt always a monster.
Yes, that’s exactly it
@SerumLake the _Rock of Ages_ storyline in JLA ran with that interpretation. Martian Manhunter manages to telepathically force Joker back to sanity for a minute, and Joker is utterly horrified at who he is.
What did you wanted to prove? That everyone is as ugly as you? You're alone
@@nicholasfarrell5981This is repeated in another issue where Ra's Al Ghul employs Joker's services, then kills him when his usefulness runs out. Batman used a Lazarus Pit to bring him back so he can question his about Ra's plan. Since most revive temporarily insane, Joker came back very much sane, horrified and depressed.
I’ve thought about this too. I think the idea is fascinating because it adds a layer of subtle vulnerability to him but it isn’t shown outwardly at all. He’s still horribly violent, but there is a part deep inside that wants to convince himself that it isn’t all his fault.
I think Joker having once worked in organized crime actually does work as a solid contrast to the chaotic clown he is now. It's why I prefer Paul Dini's backstory in Case Study to The Killing Joke.
Oh man, I was going to mention that Black and White short in the video but completely forgot! 😨
@@SerumLake It's all good chief. Glad to be talking with you again. I've gotten back into a DCAU mood as me and a couple friends are planning on binging several different batman continuities, ranging from 66 to the new Matt Reeves iteration. It's honestly quite exciting.
@@SerumLake please make a video for the history of the Batman Beyond villain named Cuvier from the Batman Beyond Season Two Episode titled Splicers please
@dougwalker8068 I also like that idea too. Some people are just bad to begin with.
A spot of hope that is crushed just it shines in its brightest... gotta love Alex Ross' art there too. That guy knows his deconstructive-reconstructive comic book iterations to otherwise familiar heroes.
I liked The Joker as a madman. A monster, not a misunderstood individual
Oh, people still misunderstand him. They can't accept that a man can be that unrepentantly evil, wanting to watch the world burn just for the hell of it.
True enough, though at the same time I think some people take the monster part too far.
Get down to it, he’s a homicidal bully, not a mythic emissary of chaos.
It’s why I enjoy joker’s favor, he truly has no scruples but at the same time he just as afraid of death as his victims.
That's why I'm not interested in the Joker movies
@@changvasejarik62I feel like there's a balance you want to strike. If you make the Joker too much of a monster then you really have to have a damn good compelling reason for why Batman doesn't kill him which almost no piece of media provides, sometimes even character assassinating Batman into a psychopath himself to justify it with "once I taste blood I won't stop because I like killing". IMO, this is why the central premise of the "One Bad Day" works.
If you want Batman to have a genuine reason in line with his morals as to why he doesn't kill Joker, Joker inherently has to be something Batman can believe is by some slim chance redeemable (Batman's no killing rule is entirely built around the idea that people can be rehabilitated, so if Joker is truly impossible to rehabilitated you get to the point where Batman's rule just doesn't apply- this is why he was fine shooting and killing Darkseid in the comics when Darkseid was about to destroy the universe, as Darkseid is wholly and purely evil), or go into the other direction and make him another of Arkham's tragic figures.
The alternative is to make him something like BTAS where he's evil, but not so evil that he's some kind of outright Satanic figure like Darkseid like so much media takes him to the extent of being. Then it's at least not totally unreasonable that Batman could believe Joker is still human enough to potentially be reached, even without evidence.
There's no balance really to strike Joker is meant to be chaotic and pure evil.
One underrated moment that I think does a great job illistrating your point is in the episode Harlequinade. When Joker's going to nuke Gotham to get all his eniemies at ones, Mayor Hill asks about all the innocent people that will die. Joker doesn't go into some great speech about society or showing them who they really are inside, he simply replies "some Joke on them, eh? Think of it as the ultimate Punchline!" He does the most dispicalble things because he just finds them funny and that's a lot more scary to me.
Same I really liked Joker he is my favorite villain due to how scary yet funny and complex he is
man does it for the funny
The Joker in BTAS is the embodiment of "We do just a little bit of trolling".
@@poweroffriendship2.0 ayyyy if it isn't a bonified youtube legend
Exactly! If he had some grand philosophical point to make he'd be just like dozens of other villains. But he's just doing it for fun. That's actually far more unique in its simplicity, such that other villains who do similar things are seen as imitators.
While I'm tired of the Joker being overused, I will admit that when done well, he can be very entertaining.
“I’m tired of the Joker being overused.”
Join the club.
Yeah, I'm a massive fan of the Joker myself but even I am kind of tire about him at times because he's just not that great in many recent versions (looking at you Suicide Squad Kill the Justice League).
@A_Person_64 I agree, while I love the "three steps ahead" Joker interpretation of the Noland films. It does get boring after the like third or fourth iteration of that particular Joker.
Personally, I think the best versions of the Joker are the ones who can dish it out but can't take a serve or are massive hypocrites. I feel he's more entertaining that way, like he's a serious threat but the moment you pull his own nonsense against him, he reverts to a snivvling cowards or snaps so viciously that you can get the upper hand just by "ruining the joke."
@BrightWulph I’m so glad someone else appreciates that interpretation. It also allows for Batman to actually WIN, which writers seem to be allergic to nowadays, ever allowing him to really beat the Joker. It’s always some roundabout victory where the Joker wins either way in his own mind, and Batman has to face some sort of serious loss or moral quandary. Frankly I’m a little tired of it and just want Batman to punch his teeth out, foil his plans, and put a frown on the clown’s face. Hell, if James Gunn could just open his new DCU Batman film with a fun action set piece where Joker is defeated early on and never pops in again, I’d be so happy and eternally grateful. It’d be a much-needed palate cleanser and a reminder that Joker’s a scumbag. He’s the bad guy. We can enjoy his comedy and his antics, but never try to side with his pathetic attempts to justify his appalling crimes.
This notion of Batman and Joker as two sides of the same coin is one I’m also more than over at this point. One can most certainly exist without the other. Bruce Wayne is Batman with or without the Joker. He doesn’t stop being Batman because he finally wins against his archenemy. If the Joker died tomorrow, Bruce would have the best sleep of his life, then get right back to tracking down Two-Face or busting Penguin’s criminal empire, because that’s just who he is. I feel the approach of making Joker synonymous with crime or evil itself has detracted from the character a lot. He’s not some infinite and unbeatable demon. He’s a pathetic, pitiful man in a purple suit.
Exactly!
My favorite bits with the Joker are when he just completely loses it and drops all pretense of being a clown and just straight up kills someone. Like Return of the Joker's "You're not Batman!" line followed up by him just trying to choke Terry out. He so desperately likes to pretend he's above it all and he's got it all figured out.
The Joker wants to be in control of the play, like a stage director or producer... even tho the "play" is the lives of the citizens of Gotham City. When he loses that control, he's as indignant as any stage director would be if the actors randomly go off script. I like this aspect of the Joker because it shows HOW it's possible (albeit difficult) to trip him up: the Joker expects the police, citizens of Gotham, Batman, etc, to play their scripted roles... so just stop playing along and the Joker can't adapt.
IN OTHER WORDS: The Joker's number one weakness is IMPROV 😂
My favorite origins for Joker were the ones where he wasn’t a victim of society or a family man with a tragic story, it was the ones where he was already a deranged lunatic who just needed that bad day to trigger his true evil. You’re not supposed to like or sympathize with him, he’s a character meant to be feared. That especially works perfectly with the kind of Batman story where he wants to help and rehabilitate his villains. The Joker is the one he cannot fix because he wasn’t broken, he’s just evil plain and simple.
Exactly.
Yes!
That's why I love Jack Nicholson's Joker. He was a mob man before he was the Joker. He was messed up to begin with.
No...He wasn't born evil,like Michael myers there is a point where their lives changed.
i mean bob kane even wishes he (and finger) did that
The Joker is the natural nemesis for The Batman. Batman is methodical, disciplined, trained, researched, purposeful. The Joker represents the chaos and absurdity of life, which all of those things epitomized by Batman can never truly overcome.
The hell are you talking about? The Joker is just as methodical, disciplined, researched, purposeful as Batman, the only thing missing is training and Return of the Joker showed what a joker with Bruce's training is capable of.
@@விஷ்ணு_கார்த்திக் Its more of different philosophies, I dont think he meant that Joker literally doesnt have a plan.
The Joker craves an audience to be shocked and awed at him. Sure he could'a killed Andrea but then he wouldn't get to hear her reactions. The funeral for Batman (and Sydney) was just him coming up with a good bit for Harley and his grunts and once it's over, break for lunch!
The guy even ripped off Mad Hatter and made three comedians almost ruin their lives by forcing them to become costumed villains because a year ago they mocked him routine at a comedy show he went to in disguise. And at that year's contest after making fun of their situation, he drops the disguise and just steals the trophy even though the crowd liked his routine. The man is compulsively committed to The Bit
...it's this compulsion that paints his weakness very, very clear. He **needs** to be the star of Gotham's real life horror story. When his favourite 'hobby'Charlie Collins almost killed him in some alley or when he's standing, pantsed in front of a crowd who are laughing AT him, when he's being yelled at by Ivy, Hatter and iirc Crane at the end of Joker's Wild because he changed the channel in the Arkham rec room showing his most recent defeat **and** the fact he was whipped up into a fury to blow up the titual casino for an insurance scheme-that ALMOST worked if Bats hadn't told him
He wilts like his fake flower at the idea he's being looked down on
And eventually, in the Return of The Joker film for Batman Beyond, this attitude bit him in the arse...TWICE.
Very well said (and also kinda spoiled my follow up video, but it’s all good! 😂)
In short, the world ultimately forgetting about him would be a godsend. It is even clarified in Batman: Arkham Knight... you know what they say, and in films like The Book of Life and Coco, *you can't truly kill anyone unless and until they are completely forgotten.*
Yeah. BTAS Joker is a vicious narcissist living in a story he's writing as he goes.
I need to say.
I love your use of the classic “succulent Chinese meal” for The Jokers post-eulogy stance on a world without a Bat-Man.
In the Killing Joke, loved the line Joker has "sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If i have an origin I like it multiple choice". Love the idea of no origin and he keeps making one's up when he needs one
I’ve heard it theorized that he just doesn’t remember the truth in that regard
Pretty sure New 52 Joker commits suicide after Batman tells him his real name.
That's because his creators Jerry Robinson, Bill Finger and Bob Kane hadn't thought of one.
@@darlalathan6143 the lore excuse is that he doesn’t remember the truth
well three jokers is canon joker being failed comedian is canon.
I prefer Joker being pure evil, he's not meant to be a victim like some of the other villains, to me it makes more sense that he was always a bad guy with no redeeming qualities rather than him being a normal guy before he became The Joker.
@@nathenewendzel7806 Well he does make up fake stories a lot, he did lied to Harley about his past in Mad Love.
@@nathenewendzel7806 elements of the story may very well be true part of the thing with the jokers backstory is that even he doesn’t remember much of his own past and is not exactly clear on anything before the chemical bath.
To me, the greatest summation of Joker as a being in the DCAU was in Batman Beyond Return of the Joker when Bruce responds to Terry when he asked if Joker was his biggest villain by saying "It wasn't a popularity contest. He was a psychopath. A monster." The way I have always interpreted the Joker is as a force of nature, not a representation of the mentally ill. Joker is completely aware of his own actions and basks in the glee that causing carnage and misery brings him.
With this realization it only becomes a massive plot hole as to how the heck did DCAU Bruce manage to avoid realizing this guy DID NOT DESERVED TO GO TO ARKHAM but instead a maximum security regular _prison_ where he would rot for the remainder of his life sentence without ever harming, traumatizing and brainwashing (Tim gets his happy ending) anyone ever again?
@@javiervasquez625 The law was what kept sending him to Arkham. Though considering Arkham eventually got condemned I wonder if Joker ever did get sent to another jail, and probably broke out of that one too.
@@WhiteFangofWar The "law" in DCAU Gotham is either too corrupt, incompetent or outright stupid not to notice the sheer evidence for Joker's sanity to send him to Arkham every time he carried out another city wide killing spree. Gordon should be ashamed for sucking at his job at such a monumental level after failing to realize the impossible prospect that a crazy person could ever kill so many people with such intelligent planning and organizing on the side.
True enough but one thing he has in common with Ra’s for as above it as he may present himself. He is neither fearless or invincible.
In addition to his confrontation with Charlie and the creeper, in one of the tiein comics Batman explains the problem of a joker made from the batman and joker surrenders and basically orders Harley to take a bullet for batman the joker fired.
As much of a threat as he is, he’s not a force of nature at most he’s a wrench in the machine of society.
@@WhiteFangofWar DCAU Gotham's Law Enforcement are the definiton of incompetence if they see how explicitly sane this guy is to organize his many crimes and killing sprees and somehow rationalize he must be an insane person in need of therapy. Gordon should be ashamed for his incompetence and Bruce should admit guilt for failing to contact the _right authority_ to properly process such a deranged terrorist as Jack Napier.
this and the '89 movie's take on the Joker were the only ones that ever made sense to me. The Joker is not some sad little weepy boy who hurts people cuz he's all broken up inside and wants to lash out, he's a bully and a monster at heart and getting disfigured just meant he didn't have to pretend to be "normal" about it anymore.
You’re absolutely right. The Joker was never anything but tragic or sympathetic. He was as Poison Ivy described, a psychotic creep. Born from the darkness itself. The clown acid bath, simply gave him an identity. As Batman put it in return of the Joker. “It wasn’t a popularity contest. He was a psychopath, he was a monster”.
Is Joker truly that psychotic, though? He's certainly a murderous sociopath, but he's likely in completely control of his mind and understands exactly how much of a monster he is. He simply likes being a monster and enjoys showing others how monstrous he is.
The Joker is a prime example on a great usage of "Evil for evils sake" trope. Not all villains need a tragic backstory or a deep reason as to why they are doing things. In the cases of pure evil, the past does not matter, what matters is the now and gettin that greatest of duels with their sworn nemesis, or finalizing that one big plan for the simplest of reasons.
In a similar sense there have been many people who have gone to do various things just to see what happens. Whether those be the "I wonder what happens if I fire the airsoft gun at my foot" or the ones who ponder "what makes the fridge work". One will have a visit to the hospital, the other will have a broken fridge. Same goes for those who know what will happen, but do it anyway to see it happen. Regardless of the end result.
Another way to make this effective is to make the evil character just as capable as the protagonists. He doesn't just die off or defeated in one story, but a recurring one.
I may or may not be that fridge guy
I love that DCAU Joker gets progessively more evil and scary as his chronological appearences progress. He's a pretty Silver age/Romero esk Joker in Christmas with the Joker and Last Laugh. To Be a Clown is more creepy just because of the overlooming threat to an unsuspecting child. Joker's Favor and Laughing Fish is where the tone of the character really shifted and the suggestion that this Joker is a killer is really inforced, while not explicitly stated. Mask of the Phantasm and Mad Love are really the next major stepping stone. Showing how depraved and abusive he can be. Of course the major culmination is Return of the Joker, which makes Death in the Family seem friendly family. At least in the comics this was just a spur of the moment thing he thought to do. But what Joker did to Tim was well planned out, done slowly, and greatly enjoyed every step of the way. You can tell in Joker's monologue to Bruce just how much he's savoring every torterous word to him.
Joker probably started planning the torture and mind rape of Tim as soon as 2003. During the Cadmus Arc
The Joker's ambiguity and irredeemable evil makes him terrifyingly iconic. He does not need a backstory, he just malicious and relishes it. There's a similar character in Bleach that undoubtedly took some queues from this monster clown. Tokinada Tsunayshiro, a high ranking member of a powerful noble family who just wants to see the worlds enveloped in chaos while being utterly cruel. He uses his status as immunity and laughs as he tortures and kills. He also enjoys playing mind games with others, bringing up past failures or hypocrisies before suddenly threatening them. Sometimes there's no need for a backstory or sympathy, just evil will do.
I like the idea of knowing just enough about the Joker's origins, but he should stay somewhat mysterious and shouldn't always be a tragic figure.
Agree not every character needs one especially one as mysterious as the Joker. Don't care if the guy was the inventor of the drug that beat cancer or had a ranch of homeless animal's before he became the Joker evil is evil period
Same the only thing thing that confirmed should be he seemingly part of a small gang with a red hood. But nothing else before that is known
I remember in a DVD extra that a writer said whenever the Joker does something really horrible but you laugh at it you're definitely on the right track when writing him. I absolutely love how this show portrayed that side of Mr J, and with Mark Hamils masterful voice work, he'll always translate into a portrayal that has such gravitas... It makes you smile.
Hmm, who's this writer?
The only relatible thing about the Joker should ever be is that he isn't immune to making bad jokes. Every so often, you'll get a cornball in there. A pun so terrible that a shrug or a groan from the viewer is sure to follow.
Sometimes, even he'll even regret it.
Joker, A Villain obsessed with his own Self-Satisfactions and desires of being written in the History Books
The first one is basically luke in a nutshell during the outro
It doesn't need to be in every video
Joker works better when he's just a irredimable monster. Not some poor soul who became a villain out of tragedy like Freeze or Two Face but a madman who enjoy the suffering of others. This helps the moments Batman has to save Joker's life even more intense. It's clear the Joker is beyond redemption, there's nothing on him that worthy saving. Letting him die could seem like the best option to create a better world. But Bruce can't do it. He knows that it's not up to him to decide who gets to live or die, even a monster like the Joker. It shows the strenght of Batman's compassion and his dedication to his core values.
So batman has compassion for Joker but no compassion for the future innocent people he will kill?
@@eskanda3434 If people of Gotham know the Joker is such danger, then he should got the death penalty. It's not up for Batman to decide who gets to live and who gets to die. That's up for the law and the people it represents.
@@eskanda3434 Plus, even if Batman killed the Joker, those future innocent people would still be killed by other villain or event that Batman couldn't stop. He's just human and death comes to anyone, soon or later, in any shape or form. In any scenario Batman would still have to deal with loss. At least his way allows him to fight crime without corrupting his morallity and turning him into a villain like Mr Freeze or Ra's Al Ghul.
I personally don’t mind when Joker has a sad origin, it’s always tracked with my personal interpretation of the character that he is someone who went through a degree of suffering in some form or another. I like it best however when the nature of his origin is still left a mystery and that regardless of what it is that doesn’t detract from his insanity or make him out as a tragic figure.
I kind of think interpretations like The Killing Joke, Nolan’s TDK, and BTAS mesh that concept very well, they establish Joker did (or at least probably did in the case of Ledger) experience a degree of suffering but we’re shown through the victims of Joker’s ploys that simply being put in a bad situation isn’t enough to make every normal well-meaning person snap. Joker may have had a bad day but that doesn’t rationalize or humanize the actions and decisions he took after that.
He wasn’t a good man turned bad he was a bad man turned worse.
Bats was relieved when Tim Drake killed Joker because he was finally gone, and he didn't have to do it.
Joker is the best example of a villain that doesnt need backgrounds or have to be sympathetic. He just have to chaotic and well written.
The Joker is one of those rare characters where his background can be fluid enough to fit the story and be whatever kind of role the narrative needs him to be, but also doesn't require any sort of background whatsoever - he simply just is. The BtaS version strikes the perfect balance of chaos between malevolence and devil-may-care.
Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger walked this line pretty well, while Joaquin Phoenix was almost a different genre entirely. Jared Leto just belongs in a pillory somewhere. Cameron Monaghan did a great job, even if the series writing became garbage pretty quickly and he maybe aped a little too much Ledger at times.
But no one can touch Mark Hamill. Not a single other animated version has even come close. Most are just annoying or pale imitations.
Agreed about Mark Hamill. Other Joker actors are all well and good (for the most part!) but none will dethrone him.
@@sonzillamariocraft I absolutely did. He is one of the worst, in my opinion. His voice doesn't fit.
@@stephaniemarkey9396 Bad take , ngl. His Joker was one of the best parts of The Batman 2004.
Hamill is of course the best but DiMaggio is a close second for me.
@naiveparsley2917 I think his performance hits all the right notes in terms of characterization. Kevin Michael Richardson is a very talented voice actor. But his voice, to me, doesn't fit. He isn't the worst though. The worst in my opinion is Troy Baker, also a talented voice actor, but not a good fit. John DiMaggio was a little jarring at first, because when I hear him it's hard not to think of Jake or Bender, but he grew on me.
Another bit of evidence to backup your assertion that joker’s obsession with Batman is secondary is in Batman beyond return of the joker, when the joker says to Bruce “I suppose I should salute you as a worthy adversary and all that, but the truth is I really did hate your guts.”
His backstory as mob enforcer actually works even better it shows even before his transformation he was always evil
My personal headcanon is that the Joker isn't really mad or mentally ill at all. Sure, we can label him as narcissistic, having anti-social personality, and a bunch of other stuff, but imo he is none of that, not in a clinical sense. Everything he does is performative, even his so called madness, he is a perfectly sane person that does horrible acts because he likes it. He doesn't need help in Arkham, he needs to be put on Blackgate.
Yeah, his actions and persona are an act. He is playing a larger than life villain, whose performances involve real misdeeds rather than pretend. That's part of his obsession with Batman. Joker wants to be THE villain, and what does a great villain need? A great hero to oppose them. Steve Englehart wrote some great dialogue for Joker which defines this.
I always liked the idea that Batman under all that stern and grim is the one struggling with mental health and trauma but still strives to be a good man, whereas Joker under all that theatricality and personality is completely sound of mind and just loves having an excuse to be cruel
In my opinion it was the events of Wild Cards that proved to the general population/government officials of the DCAU that the Joker isn't insane but evil.
“Some of Hollywood’s finest actors… and Jared Leto.”
I don’t think even Firefly could’ve inflicted that kind of burn.
Agreed, Joker is much more effective as a cynical nihilistic monster who merely tries to convince anyone who will listen that he is a tortured soul. In fact his use of multiple freudian excuse stories indicates that he finds the entire concept of 'one bad day' worthy of mockery. *Nothing* is sacred to the Joker. He trolls at Harvey Dent's identity disorder, Penguin's ego-boosting extravagance, Ivy's environmental concerns, and of course Harley's genuine desire for his affection. He considers them all pale imitators to him, Batman's one true nemesis.
As a former online moderator, he's even easier for me to hate.
I did enjoy how the movie "Joker" used him, but it just can't top his "evil, crazy, psycho" persona that we all know and love.
I like to think of Joker as a little bit inhuman, he represents the Unknown and the existential terrifying. He seems mortal and can be killed, yet he always mysteriously survives and comes back. He's a genius who would live in Wealth and Power if he wanted, but he really doesn't care about that stuff. He doesn't even mindlessly kill people, his biggest game in life is to entertain himself every way he wants.
Joker's stories and personality prove that BTAS (and animation as a whole) is not inherently less effective than live-action. When I watched these shows as a kid, and even now, I never thought of them as lesser than live-action. They were just good stories. In fact, I still argue that these stories work better in animation because of how the animators are able to better express the emotions of the characters on screen as well as the psychological imagery that the story requires. If this show doesn't prove that animation can be just as good (or even better) than live-action, I don't know what will.
Anybody who would say the DCAU is a lesser story than live-action is wrong on at least multiple dozens of levels.
I love both depictions of him, the sympathetic joker and the pure evil joker. As long as both are done well, of course
Adding to what you said, a villain having a sympathetic backstory and being nigh irredeemably evil are not mutually exclusive. So I still say both can be possible at once for the Joker. One recent example of this, which I found very well done, was the plot twists involving the Nowhere King’s backstory in “Centaurworld”.
Basically, there are a lot of tragic and sympathetic parts of the Nowhere King’s backstory. But then he becomes so bent on causing two worlds full of innocents to suffer and die for his own pleasure, that he loses all the protagonist’s sympathy. Also, it becomes clear that the Nowhere King always had some of those vices, plus his own torment and transformations were ultimately self-inflicted anyway. By the time he is defeated, he ends up dying without any redemption too.
I like that Joker was basically the only villain in the series who's origin/first meeting with Batman is never shown on screen. By the time the show started, him and Batman had already been enemies for some time before, so we can't sympathize with who he was because we don't know anything about him. The closest was in Mask of the Phantasm but even then we don't know much about him besides that he worked for the mob
When it comes to BTAS keeping the Joker evil from even his origin is that it reminds people that turning to evil isn't just something that comes from tragedy. People often turn to evil because it's an easy road for them to get power and indulge in their vices.
Well I'm Glad someone finally said it facts man
Or are just born that way, to the point that there may not be a single alternate universe where they're a good guy.
I don’t know. I think he was just born evil with psychopathy, hence being a bad seed like most psychopaths and sociopaths in real life. Worst part is that the Joker probably had loving parents that he killed.
Honestly, 'Jack' suits him just because four Jacks and a Joker or two can be found in a deck of cards.
Yes, I'm going to intend the pun.
Also Jack Nappier’s name almost sounds like Joker. A kind of acronym missing the o. Just take out the j k and er out of the name.
8:51 Of course Joker didn't kill Andrea. He made a joke, he pulled a prank, and someone had to be there to see the punch line
Brainiac: " Were you born evil? "
Lex Luthor: " No human is born evil . . . except, of course: "
*shows him a picture of the Jack Napier*
Lex Luthor: *scowls in disgust.*
I don't think anyone, not even Jack Napier, is born evil. As the prison chaplain in A Clockwork Orange said: "Goodness comes from within. Goodness is chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceased to be a man." Jack chose to be evil because it suited him better than being good. Becoming The Joker was just the final stage of his evil life.
@@RoosterMontgomery
No, I agree. It's just a meme.
I also never liked giving him a name. I like how the 'Phantasm' script just refers to him as 'The Tall Man' in flashback scenes. Apparently they planned to show a surrealistic flashback of his origin when Bruce realizes who he is, but never animated it for some reason. "The Tall Man falls into an impossibly wide vat of green chemicals. The chemicals SWIRL and BOIL, filling the screen. Suddenly it turns into a swirling surrealistic jumble of purple and green colors, out of which erupt various objects of Joker-related imagery -- playing cards, chatter teeth, Harley, laughing fish, murderous robot clown toys, and finally a gigantic image of The Joker himself, evil as sin and LAUGHING to bust a gut."
Arthur Fleck
Hamill’s Joker will always be THE Joker in the same way Kevin will always be THE Batman.
And Arleen will always be THE Harley
Everyone in this show is iconic
Mark Hamill's Joker was the Original Perfect Joker. He was the One that i think Truly Inspired the Idea of Heath Ledgers Joker. Pure Evil, No Background, an Incarnation of Chaos itself with a Ton of Mysteries!
And Jared Leto LOL. That's a good one and insanely accurate
Dude the Joker is such a unredeemable monster in btas but is also so weirdly sympathetic and genuinely funny besides being evil af
Mark Hamill truly did an amazing job portraying him
In Batman Beyond, Terry (the new batman) proceeds to pick at his ego in the shadows (while dodging Joker's attempts to knock him down from the rafters) while he's posessing someone through a device...and for joker that was what pissed him off the most was someone laughing at his entire identity, motive, and backstory and not being the one who gets the last laugh in the end.
Even if he was abused as a child it doesn't necessarily make him a sympathetic villain in the real world there are serial killers that had abusive childhoods that doesn't mean they're sympathetic
I always loved how the animated series followed the Burton series and made Joker a mobster. It makes so much sense how Joker would have these connections to the criminal underworld and his many heists. The animated series expanded on the Burton origins and I prefer it that way. It showed that the Joker was already a messed up person to begin with, it was just the vat of chemicals that made him a go crazy.
I personally like both psychopathic irredeemable Joker and a more sympathetic version of him, like the one from the Joker 2019. I think it's better that both exist, so we have a choice which we think is better for some contexts and which is better for others.
And both Joaquin Phoenix' performance and Mark Hamill's are absolutely gorgeous, they really do make the character come alive.
I agree with you. I feel like it's important both versions exit. I feel this is why Jerome from Gotham is the best take on him. You feel sorry for Jerome but he's also terrifying because you know what he's capable of and because he truly does not give a fuck if you show him sympathy. Which shows how far gone he is.
A lot of things influence us and guide us to the people we become. But as agents with free will, we are ultimately accountable for our actions. No backstory, no matter how tragic, would justify the monster that the Joker is. And that fact liberates the character from the need for any backstory at all.
The only sympathetic version of Joker that I felt worked was Telltale; he was still somewhat violent and homicidal but he's actually trying to be a good person, and his friendship with Bruce is INCREDIBLY tragic.
Agreed. It was the exception that proved the rule.
Totally. That imo is a more effective sympathetic mentally ill Joker than Joker 2019. The latter really has very little to do with the Joker
People who take the "one bad day" line at face value miss the point of the Killing Joke, I feel. To me, the whole point of Killing Joke was that Joker's whole claim is a lie he tells himself to justify what he does. He needs to believe that he became what he is because of a terrible event to be comfortable with his own actions, but the narrative does not justify that, because Commissioner Gordon does not break and become like Joker. What Alan Moore posited was that you don't just become a crazed killer just because of tragedy. Joker was probably not a great person even before whatever terrible event made him the Joker. It didn't do good things for his mental health, clearly, but he wasn't just some otherwise normal person who suddenly went violently insane because of a single event.
I had a whole thing about this that I meant to say in response to the Killing Joke, but I could never get that comment to post. It kept giving me an error - often a sign that your comment has something that whatever automated system UA-cam uses has determined you've violated their policy. I suspect it didn't like that I talked about the history of police violence against the mentally ill, but I really have no idea for sure.
Ah, would love to hear what the Joker himself would say about the "Server 404" error.
@@michaelandreipalon359 He'd probably laugh.
i dont know, there are a mountain of examples of "one bad day" being the driving force behind a lot of real world violence. on a public scale, not individual.
as to why gordon didnt break, realistically speaking, each mind is going to handle trauma differently. the same event might give one person lifelong PTSD, but for another it might just be another tuesday.
and not to get too focused on it, but we do know gordon, generally speaking. he's been shown to have strong willpower, and we know from his circumstances and job that he's not one to let personal trauma jeopardize things in an emergency. i'm not ssaying he can't break, just that because the joker is completely incapable of understanding gordon's mind, it's impossible for him to do the breaking.
and to be clear, none of this means that your point, this is a lie the joker tells himself, is not also true.
What makes The Killing Joke fall flat for me is Mr. No Name's wife, Jeannie. She's pregnant and living in the ghetto with an unemployed husband who is trying to make a living with a hobby that he isn't even good at. She should have told him to either beg for his job at ACE back or start flipping burgers at the Gotham Grill. Just making a woman laugh and being good in bed is NEVER enough. Her and their unborn child's death may have been traumatic, but HE led those events to their end, not "one bad day." All that doesn't turn one into a criminal mastermind overnight.
@@RoosterMontgomery I think you miss something critical to the story here. The backstory the Joker tells most likely isn't true. It's an elaborate fantasy he came up with to make himself feel more justified in what he does. Because deep down, some part of him is still human and in the moments when his mania quiets, he still feels haunted by his own actions.
“ He has no qualms with murdering people, he enjoys inflicting despair and misery on others..and he likes apples.”
Truly, a man I can relate to
"I like him already!"
Kinda screwed up when a large chunk of society thinks pure evil like Joker is sympathetic. Remember he's not Legitimately insane like the Ventriloquist or Two-Face he is fully aware of his actions and revels in them
@eldrideinherjar6711 That's true that's why I only take bits and pieces of comic lore as character development in comics, in general, is way too inconsistent
There's no denying that the Joker is a malevolent madman, the Moriarty to Batman's Holmes. An unrepentant homicidal maniac who gets his giggles by his acts of crime, ranging from larceny to murder.
Still, thanks to Mark Hamill's excellent voice acting, the Joker's my favorite of all of Batman's rogues gallery. His lines cracked me up, and that laugh...oh my God, that laugh! You don't know whether to be creeped out or laugh along with him. Mark brought the perfect balance of menace, insanity, and hilarity to the Clown Prince of Crime.
I think the best interpretation of the Joker would be one who *does* have a sympathetic reason for going mad (i.e. nurture rather than nature), but who is so much of a sociopathic narcissist that he is far too committed to being this "idea" that he hypes himself up to be, and so the idea that he's just one more poor lost soul who just needs a few years of therapy to move on from his trauma absolutely *disgusts* him.
This would fit him in nicely with the whole idea that the only difference between a hero and a villain is their response to trauma, where a hero says they won't let anyone be hurt like they have, and a villain says they'll make sure everyone is hurt they way they have. In this sense, however, the Joker is so much of an egotistical megalomaniac that he has to turn what is essentially just him throwing a fit about the world being unfair and cruel into this grandiose and spectacular battle of wits and philosophy between himself and Batman. Because since the Joker is so much better than everyone else -- according to him -- it would be ridiculous for his actions to be motivated by petty revenge at the world for being hurt, so what they're actually motivated by is proving how life is meaningless and being a hero is stupid... yeah... totally... Totally not lying himself or anything... Nope.
It's kind of pathetic when you think about it like that, and that's why I love it. It allows him to be equal parts pure evil, tragic, and pathetic without requiring the audience to feel any form of pity for him whatsoever.
Bonus points if the "idea" that the Joker constantly hypes himself up to be is all just hogwash to begin with that he uses to manipulate weak minded people into doing what he wants, which is almost certainly what it is.
Great video, Luke. BTAS Joker stands apart from the tragic vilians you mentioned. As you said, even his game with Batman isn't really that important to him. I consider him and Roland Daggett to be the most reprehensible BTAS villians, both devoid of any redeeming qualities whatsoever. In addition to the way the character is written, Mark Hamill's voice acting brings home how demented he is.
Oh yes, Mark Hamill’s performance adds a great deal to the character. He’s easily the best Joker actor out of them all in my eyes.
John Dimaggio and Kevin .Michael Richardson are pretty good Jokers in their own right.
@@zemox2534Especially Kevin. Ah, The Batman 2004 is still quite something.
Something else that is interesting about the Harlequin is that it's not just the name of a kind of jester. Back in the olden times, there were life-size mannequin-like puppets that were also called given the name Harlequin.
Honestly I get older I like the idea of an evil Joker as opposed to a tragic or truly insane one. Now that doesn’t mean we can’t have both but I think part of what makes Joker so fascinating and fun is that he twists the truth to serve his purpose. That’s something every Joker has in common, tragic or otherwise. He might even fool himself to get through the day. I think the problem with making him fully tragic is it downplays his actual villainy. Real crazy people don’t do what he does, he’s a criminal mastermind. The pity we have for him is another layer of manipulation he uses to fool everyone like Harley or even Batman.
Allegedly Frank Miller and Alan Moore use to have this debate all the time with Frank Miller arguing pure evil and Alan Moore claiming Joker is Batman’s dark reflection. I use to support the ladder’s theory but I’m now definitely believing in the former.
I think what most people forget (Specially with recent Retcons) its that the Joker isnt exacly a Tragic Villian in The Killing Joke. Yes, his backstory is reveal there but The Joker makes very clear that he isnt a reliable narrador, so every flashback in The Killing Joke isnt exacly real.
I onow this was retcon with The Three Jokers due to... Spoilers... But even then, the original intention was that he isnt reliable
Oh yes, absolutely. It’s just a shame that so many comic writers after this seemed to forget that!
Basically, the writers are like Harleen Quinzel the psychiatrist?
@@michaelandreipalon359 Depends on What you mean by that. But i would say Its more like The Writers Are like The Joker and The Readers Are like Halley.
The truly scary thing about the Joker is that he's a reflection of a type of people that we have to occasionally deal with. There are some people who really do just enjoy being mean and nasty. But they're such a divergence from the vast majority that society in general doesn't want to believe that they're just horrible people.
I think one thing worth noting is that, if the Joker had been the one to kill Andrea Beaumont's father, he wouldn't have hesitated to kill her on the way out, laughing and smiling the entire time. Instead, Jack just calmly walks away, unconcerned. His job at the time was just to kill her father, not her. While the Joker takes joy in causing as much death and destruction as possible, for "Jack", killing was just a part of the job, and he only did it when the job called for it. Professionals have standards, I suppose.
Personally I like the idea that Harley somehow managed to worm her way into the Joker's heart, but he hates that so he treats her even worse than before as a way of punishing her for making him feel anything. It's tragic and complicated and toxic and makes for, in my opinion, great storytelling.
Joker when you laugh with him: 😂
Joker when you laugh at him: 🤬
As much as I love Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger, and Joaquin Phoenix performance as the Joker but the DCAU Joker will always be the definitive version of the character in my opinion.
It's poetic how Mark Hamill portrayed both the harbinger of Light as Luke Skywalker, and the most devilish of evil as the Joker in my lifetime.
A fine explanation, but if you have to explain the joke, THERE IS NO JOKE!
Very well said!
A thing that stuck out to me about DCAU/JL/JLU Joker was when the Royal Flush Gang was created chronologically. Looking at Ace makes anyone go insane, but when she looked at him it made him crazy for a period of time. Meaning when he says he’s crazy, he’s just acting unhinged. He’s a little insane, for doing the whole; Dead and yet alive trick we’ve seen him do, and going back to crime, and fighting Batman. But not crazy. He’s just hiding behind that label to somewhat justify his actions, no better than those rich punks from a BTAS episode.
Really great video! I agree with you on multiple points.
One quick correction: In Batman #1 we actually do get a hint at Joker’s backstory. He chooses one of his victims, Judge Drake, because he sent him to prison, showing he was a criminal well before he became the Joker since his first appearance.
0:44 I love the Jared Leto Burn 😅
7:11 Joker being their lookout fixer driver is very similar to the Penguins origins in the HBO Max Show.
I always liked the idea of the joker just being the run of the mill mobster before becoming the joker,
5:09 "The comic ends in an ambiguous way, suggesting that Batman has been tipped over the deep end."
Nope. Gotta disagree with you there. Batman does NOT kill the Joker at the end of The Killing Joke, because if he does, The Killing Joke is meaningless. The Joker is trying to make Gordon (and by extension Batman) break through "one bad day," since that's what happened to him. But as Batman notes at the end, Gordon is made of sterner stuff than that, demanding that Batman bring in the Joker "by the book." And Batman himself notes that he doesn't want to beat the Joker up at the end of the book and even offers him sympathy, extending his hand to help him find a way back to sanity.
If the Batman kills the Joker at the end of the book, that means the Joker was right, and I can't believe that Alan Moore would ever say that. (Besides, there's absolutely nothing in Moore's ultra-detailed script about it, and that's not something he'd leave out.)
The "Batman kills the Joker at the end of The Killing Joke" thing has only ever been Grant Morrison fanwank, and has absolutely no basis in the book itself.
Still, I can admit that it's a possibility, because Multiverse Theory.
I seen a different theory on the ending that suggest Batman was actually poisoned by the Joker and the effects are kicking in.
As throughout the comic hands played an important visual motif. Remember Joker had that needle in his glove when he talked to the circus owner. And in the fight with Joker there a panel where Batman seen looking at his own open palm. Suggesting Joker managed to poison Batman in the shuffle.
Thanks!
No, thank you!
The more I see pre-Joker Jack Napier, the more I realize.....
Man, they really used 1960's Jack Nicholson as a model for gangster Jack. Just look at 7:22, and tell me there isn't a resemblance!😂❤
A huge reason for why Jack Horner was so "liked".
He was just irredeemable. No sad backstory or anything.
As, like with real life: Some people are just... "broken" in a way that *cannot* be fixed.
Ah, the one in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish? That movie sure has grown on me in a manner not encountered since Shrek 1 and 2, plus Kung Fu Panda 1 and 2.
Jack Horner was so refreshing to see considering animated Theatrical movies rarely do pure evil or near pure evil villains.
We really do like to believe that, huh. It's so much easier to toss away broken trash than it is to fix it.
That's all it is: no philosophical grounding, no moralizing... just the desire to punish, because it's easy.
People want so desperately to believe that there are fundamentally evil people... so they can be evil to them with a clean conscience.
After all, these "broken" people are not really *human*, are they?
Just another disposable population in the long list.
As a comic book fan growing up, I never ever bought into the idea of The Joker as a sympathetic figure before his transformation, I've always preferred him as someone who was already evil and just fully embraced the madness once he dropped into the vat of chemicals. The fact that Batman is partially responsible for helping to turn him into the monster that we all know makes their dynamic even more deeper and wild
12:03 I will never get over his arched back walk, it's so unnecessarily extra 🤣.
This was WONDERFUL, thank you very much! TAS so totally reinvented a ton of Batman's rogues, and INVENTED Harley Quinn, having an amazing effect on the entire franchise. Mark Hamill's performance, especially against Kevin Conroy, is iconic for a very good reason. The Joker's self-obsession and self-mythologizing is undercut and exploited SO PERFECTLY in the Batman Beyond movie, Return of the Joker, when Terry just absolutely DESTROYS him verbally at the end. I'm so glad I found your channel-- Time to dive into your archives.
Well at least he likes apples, it's nice to know he cares about health.
And that also means one less doctor he may want to visit... and maim... and traumatize... and croak...
@@michaelandreipalon359 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Almost ALL of Batman's rogues gallery have sad backstories or understandable points of view on why they do what they do. I think Joker is the one foe who is the perfect antithesis to them: A villain Batman can't or won't be able to redeem. Ever.
6:01 I personally feel it didn't make sense to retcon Joker's name in this universe, as he's got a defined background unlike the canon version. While like most people, I prefer not knowing anything of the Joker's past, versions like BTAS and Batman: White Knight make it work.
my favorite part of all these videos,"TELL ALL YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT ME!!" it just throws me off every time.. great job on this one though
There was a comic I read once, it had the joker before his transformation as a hitman or something like that, but more importantly a sociopath.
He was good at his job but would often mess things up just so things would be more entertaining for him,
The job he was doing at the chemical plant was almost over, him and his associates had snuck it and if I remember correctly had what they were looking for, but the man who would be joker was board because things were too easy, so he intentionally raises an alert, which results in him fighting off security and the police while smiling and laughing, before encountering batman and getting knocked into the chemicals.
All the chemicals did to him were change his perspective a little and free him from his obligations, one of the first things he comments on after climbing out of the river, is he looks at the moon and says it looks beautiful tonight.
It's batman: confidential #7-13.
I had to validate the validation email so i can like and subscribe. Really good concise video.
The joker casino episode is my personal favorite btas episode because you get to see joker going from being angry about his likeness being stolen too low key admiring the fact that people are willingly having money stolen from them, even musing to himself that he should just take it over and retire, and then reverting back too wanting to blow the place up once batman shows up.
It shows that he's still got a somewhat shrewd business mind locked away inside his broken psychopathic personality.
Love the fact that when Batman battles the Joker, the less he feels sympathetic, he feels towards him.
The multiple choice backstory was also later (and nicely) utilised in The Dark Knight when Heath Ledger Joker told multiple stories about how he got his scars.
Like the Joker relating to Harley... or his making a successful mob hit, your video nails it. Well done!
I concur with the idea even before seeing this video. Not every needs a tragic backstory same a hero needs a tragic backstory to invoke a sense of justice and duty. Just an intriguing motivation for their actions can provided enough.
I like to instead just not know his backstory. I like the idea that he just showed up in gotham and only he knows why, or when.
All I know is that I like a Joker who is an intelligent chemist (his laughing gas, his complicated plans and gadgets), wears makeup, likes to stand out in order to hide in a way, he cross dresses, he kills, all we know is his life currently has him constantly fighting for his life, yet sometimes he does get a big pay day, he’s resourceful just like batman, id say he has some morals in a weird or twisted way. When it comes down to it, i prefer a funny genius stupid silly killer joker rather than an overly gritty batman obsessed joker. His whole thing is being a clown, he has a theme, hes an entertainer. He curates his appearances and his crimes and can switch up from being wacky and funny to chillingly intimidating whenever he wants. This is what makes him interesting and unpredictable.
Personally i don’t like the red hood backstory but that is just what i think.
I think the joker having multiple origins can actually work to fit into his character - they're all lies.
Although if there had to be a single definitive origin, I think a combination of both the crime family & one bad day merged into one would be the best route to go.
Make him always have been evil, but still go through such a horrid event, that it just makes him more dangerous, evil, twisted.
Save the sympathy for Harley, Joker is at his best when he's just pure twisted evil. He never could know heartbreak, because he was always heartless.
The only person besides himself that he should have ever cared for, was Batman, in his own deranged way.
Another masterful essay, congrats
I love how versatile the joker is and how he can still work whether he has a sympathetic background or a psychopathic one
i almost choked on my coffee at "portrayed by some of Hollywood's finest actors ...and Jared Leto" 🤣
As I’ve said to you many times, I wish they’d stop having him laughing and playing pranks all the time. I think he’s much better when there’s a disconnect between his rictus grin and his disturbing behaviour. Jack Nicholson’s version is probably my favourite because the whole clown thing is pretty arbitrary - he”s got playing cards in his hat, for some reason - and his ‘clownish’ behaviour manifests more in a sort of toddler-like distractibility and vicious whimsy. Most of the time his laughter seems intended to underline the fact that what he’s doing isn’t funny at all, and THAT’S the joke. Nicholson often used to claim it as his best work and I probably wouldn’t argue with him (I do not wanna get nuts).
I love the idea that the joker was just pure evil with no origin.